MatildaMoody

I think the shirking of her professional duties is only part of it. Aviva has insulted all of these women throughout her tenure on the show and she has done it in the most vicious and vile method possible. So, yes there would be resentment for that as well. The thing is, while we are being led to believe that they are somehow obsessed with talking about her, there isn't anything to back it up. They as a group only discussed her missing the Montana trip a few minutes one night at dinner and then on tonight's episode when they were mentally preparing to see her again. Aviva would like to think that they are obsessed with hating her, but it simply isn't true. Did anyone else catch when she said something about it being "all season" or was it "last season" when she was in the middle of an argument at the table? She can't even keep her lines straight enough to remember how not to break the fourth wall.

This is the one thing that I absolutely HATED about what Jill did to the Housewives, and she infected other parts of the franchise with that ridiculousness (she was the one that advised Nene and Teresa to form their "teams" and those shows got just as tedious). That is when it became less about the women's lives and more about the arranged get togethers in order to create drama between the "teams." For me that is why I NEVER want to see Jill back on this show.

I thought Vicki said "wait til they grow up." Meaning Brianna's kids.

heather's blog is up on Bravo. Looks like she is trying to spin her way out of this one. She even goes so far as to call Shannon "gutsy" for coming back to the party to let everyone know she was leaving.

Oh, I wouldn't hang out with Ramona for any reason. I would never say that Ramona is someone I would enjoy in real life. I just think the reason she doesn't get the level of hate that Aviva gets from the viewers is that she actually provides entertainment value - usually when she isn't trying to and is just being her delusional self.

I've been following the discussion of Ramona VS. Aviva and why Aviva seems to get more vitriol than Ramona. For me, it boils down to entertainment factor. If I look back over the seasons at Ramona's behavior, there have been times that I have wondered how she has gone her entire adult life without being punched in the mouth. But, there have been times when I have also laughed out loud at her behavior (the modeling thing with the crazy eyes/the first Turtle Time/Dancing with Simon at Jill's charity event), her delusions (she's the best hostess ever, she knows the fashion industry, "going down to the Social Register"), and her malapropisms (mountains out of holemills, Kaduz). Also, "Who are you to get me wet" was my ringtone for a few weeks because it was just so freaking funny. Plus, and prior to this season, this was the biggest thing about her that I enjoyed, Ramona never seemed to take herself so seriously that she was ever bothered by any of the criticism or snark. That isn't as much the case this season, but I suspect it's because of her marriage imploding so publicly and her trying her best to control that. When it comes to Aviva, she just isn't entertaining. Not only does she say these vicious things seemingly out of no where, but she just so joyless and self important. She tries to hard to be the villain of the piece whereas Ramona is just organically the villain or the comic relief. She takes herself and the reactions to her behavior way too seriously and there is nothing entertaining or organic about her behavior. It's hard to explain the differences but, they are there - at least for me.

How crazy is it that Aviva actually rented a place for filming? Normally, I would think that she really wanted to be on the show. But, she had so many reasons for not being a part of the trips. Aviva is odd and off putting for me. I know that she wants to make sure she has the most attention focused on her, but the way she goes about getting that attention creeps me out.

And them watching clips of themselves on television, and making excuses for the way their children treated them. That was really the best reunion ever. Because it was just the wives watching certain clips and giving their input. But, you could see them sizing each other up. The first season reunion was pretty epic. Especially since Vicki is the last HoWife standing.

The thing I don't get about Britt is WHY she wants to beat up Jada. If we had seen some footage of Jada doing something that would make Britt angry, I would at least understand Britt having a problem with her. But, from what they have shown, Jada has almost no interaction with Britt. Everything Britt bitches about when it comes to Jada is about what the other girls talk about.

I was not addressing the incident with the chair. I was addressing the Christmas party.

It doesn't matter that Lizzie called Shannon and Tamra out on trash talking another guest. What matters is the conversation was between Heather and Tamra. And once Tamra lied about the "pick a side" comment (seriously, did you how shifty she got with that?) the conversation was still between Heather and Tamra. Shannon donned her "Captain Save-A-Ho" cape and decided to insert herself in the conversation and chastised her. Heather stuck around to defend herself because what started out as a discussion between her and Tamra turned into a Tamra and Shannon both tag teaming her and putting her on the defensive.

Funny, I immediately thought that Luann was the source.

Shannon inserted herself in a conversation between Heather and Tamra and lambasted her for being condescending. A conversation that did not concern her and in which she had no say. I have already said that Shannon didn't yell at her, but in the heat of the moment, it could have easily felt like Heather was being yelled at.

I disagree. The ratings started dropping in Jill's last season. The criticism was that the show had gotten too dark and the constant division into the teams was too boring. And, I think that Jill was the reason for that. I think that when that decline happened the fans the show lost didn't bother to tune in the next season when the show had been recast. Aviva's crazy garnered enough interest for some to check it out mid season, but then they took more than a year to bring it back this season and I think people just forgot about it. And then there was the disgusting pervert that is George. All in all, I don't think that it was a single cast member or even a couple of cast members that kept people tuning in. I think it was a lot of things piling up that caused the ratings to sink. But, the ratings started slipping prior to Jill getting the ax and I think she was a large part of why the decline started happening.

As much as I loathe the idea of even sounding like I am defending Heather, I have to say that I think this is exactly what Heather described to Shannon about it being a matter of perception. On RHNY, Ramona politely asked George to leave her event after he grabbed her arm. When he refused, she had security escort him out. No matter what he did and how Ramona spoke to him, he will always claim that he was kicked out of her party. And, he was. He was kicked out AFTER refusing to leave. On this show, Heather politely asked Shannon to leave because they weren't getting anywhere in the conversation, and Shannon left. Shannon's perception was that she was kicked out because that is what it felt like to her. Shannon chastised Heather in front of a group of women while Heather was having a conversation that didn't involve her. So, her perception was that Shannon was yelling at her. Shannon didn't yell at her, but when you are chastised or admonished in front of a group, it can feel as though the person is yelling even if that isn't an accurate account of what happened. So, I will say that Shannon was kicked out the same way that Heather was yelled at. They both see the situation differently because they were both put on the spot and things seemed more intense in the situation than they actually were in reality.

While I agree with your definition of a verbal attack, I don't think that all of Ramona's antics have been the result of her going out of her way to be rude and cruel to people. Lately? Absolutely. But, in the earlier seasons? I don't think that is the case. Let me clarify by saying that prior to this season, I was someone who did not believe this show could exist without Ramona. The most entertaining and laugh out loud moments of earlier seasons really came from her being clueless both to how she came across and how she reacted to certain situations. It didn't hurt that she also had this ability to completely mispronounce words and cliches. And, when called out on those things at the reunions or on social media, she was always a good sport and never let it get to her nor did she get overly defensive about being called a dumbass or delusional. She took it as part and parcel of being on TV. This past season though is a lot different. I recently re-watched the episode where Simon shows up to the "girls' night." I don't know if Ramona is so much more over the top now, or what, but it really wasn't as horrible as I remembered it. It was mainly awkward and made me feel embarrassed for her and the other people. But, it certainly wasn't vicious; it was more self centered than anything. It was all "I made the effort because I thought it was going to be a girls' night, why didn't anyone tell me that we could bring our husbands, I have other girlfriends that I was going to hang out with. You know what? Goodbye." Which is what made it so entertaining.In fact, it was always Ramona's self centered behavior that made her perfect fodder for reality television - that and the way she would brush off the snark and criticism from it. I always thought of Ramona as the "party girl" who married who she thought was "the hottest guy at the party" and had a child. So, she utilized her friends to recapture her party girl lifestyle. So saying things like "Kaduz" and "mountains out of holemills" and "going down to the social register" were funny and showed how clueless she was. While things like the runway walk, the slurring about shutting Kelly down, and the introduction of turtle time were just plain fun to laugh at. The things she said to Bethenny on the bridge (which I found inexcusable regardless of how things turned out), were prompted by Ramona feeling she was attacked. And, that was the thing I always noticed with her. When she felt the least bit attacked she would hit back and go for the jugular. So, even if the person said something that wasn't meant to be offensive, but just as a means of a counter argument, she would slay them. I always thought that it was her idea of not being a victim like her mother had been and that she never had the counseling she needed to deal with that. Even during Jill's last season when Ramona used the word deformed instead of disfigured, I could see Ramona trying to come up with the right word and not being able to do it on camera. It was another kadooz moment but it was horrible because it was hurtful. And, Ramona took her lumps for that. This season though, her behavior has turned up several notches and gone into purposefully vicious territory. Maybe she has seen that she has been able to get away with inexcusable things for so long, that she decide to ramp it up. Or, maybe she was getting a much better edit in those earlier seasons. But, her behavior this season, while similar, is much more calculated than in seasons past. All of this is to say that I don't think that Ramona has always gone out of her way to be rude or hurtful. I think she was someone who reacted in the moment and dealt with the backlash when it came. But, this year, she has really gone out of her way to cause harm with her behavior and words.I don't know if she is going through a combination of menopause and dealing with a cheating spouse, or if she simply thinks that she has to turn it up to keep her spot. Or, maybe she, as I have always suspected, has some form of Aspergers that was never diagnosed and without boundaries we are seeing it manifest in ways that the camera can't hide anymore. What I do know is that I am not sure the show would be the same without her. I love Heather and Carole. And Luann has definitely grown on me now that her role has been limited and she can be the Greek Chorus. But, Ramona's crazy is kind of an institution for me at this point. I would definitely prefer that she not throw things or actively go after people without provocation. And if she could do that, I would welcome her back. But, her reactions to people as they were in the earlier seasons were pretty much the only thing that kept me interested enough to tune in. As much as I disliked Jill and am glad that she is gone, the one thing I appreciated about her is the thing that I appreciate about Ramona. Neither one of them are able to hide who they really are. It's the same thing I liked about Bethenny when she was on the show. Jill wasn't able to take the backlash and in her rush to try to correct things, she would make it worse. Bethenny and Ramona would defend themselves to a point and then let it go. Plus, I really want to see the fall out from Ramona's marriage. I'm going to hell I know that. But, Ramona has always been a case study for me. I find her behavior, attitudes, and reactions to be alternately entertaining and just plain fascinating.

Shannon's is up has been for a while. I want to see Heather's!

Not me. That would have given Terry the chance to paint David as some plebeian who hits people rather than actually talk out his differences. Terry would love nothing more than for some one to hit him. Tamra instigated this whole thing and then she tried to cover her tracks by trying to keep Shannon quiet - like she literally and physically tried to keep Shannon quiet on the balcony. The worst part about this is that she tried to implicate Shannon's husband David in her bid to cover her tracks. And somehow, Tamra is STILL not being held responsible for her duplicitous behavior. I don't even blame Andy anymore for this bullshit. Andy checked out of the franchise so long ago that it's amazing he even has the housewives on his show anymore.

I'm pretty sure that Lizzie earned her orange when she called out the "behind the back" shit stirring that Tamra and Shannon were doing at the Christmas party. That was enough for me, because I knew that she would eventually do it again. And, I think she is going to do it again with Tamra's next breakdown. So, Lizzie has done enough for me to think she deserves to be there. If this were the old days, she would have been a permanent fixture. But since these are the days of Tamra, it's all about finding the right opportunity to show your worth. And, Lizzie has shown her worth. All of those ridiculous people saying her kids are miserable or not thriving because of less than 10 minutes of screen time by her kids over the course of the season can suck it. Because, I may not know anything about Lizzie, but I know that she can bring it and I hope she has the chance to prove it.

I think that Terry was totally trying to call Heather out. I think he waits for the opportunity to embarrass Heather on television because he knows she won't call him out on it in front of the cameras. I would bet anything that they had a conversation about how they were going to discuss the the rescued versus purebred dog on television and that Terry went off script. I think he thought it would be another "onion rings" moment where people would champion his cause because he is paying for everything. And knowing that Terry is the only reason that Heather did the show, tells me that he really has some passive aggressive anger towards her and he needs the cameras to let it out. Heather is an uptight bitch. Terry is also an uptight bitch. Terry wants to make sure that everyone knows that Heather is an uptight bitch, while Heather would have probably been just as happy clinging to the fringes of minor appearances on TV when she could get them and supervising her nannies. So, I understand the looks she gives Terry during filming. They seem to have a plan for how they will appear on camera, and then Terry will change things up when the cameras are there and then play innocent. Or, he will act like he was just joking. But, ever since I found out that he gave her the silent treatment until she agreed to do the show, I have known that Terry is a messy bitch who just wants to be on TV.

I could totally see the situation escalating. And, while it would have made for great entertainment, it wouldn't have been Vicki's best look to pipe in at that moment. I think that if Vicki had said anything, Tamra would have been so trapped that she would have started screeching over people - possibly insulting Vicki and/or Brooks, or even throwing something else out there at someone else. Maybe she would have attacked Heather and Terry in an attempt to save her own ass and totally side tracked the conversation. Anything to deflect blame from her own actions. I think that Vicki has seen desperate and trapped Tamra enough to know how not to make it worse - even if it's to avoid making it worse for herself. But, in this case, i think that it was a combination of not giving Tamra an opportunity to attack her or Heather and Terry. Besides, in real life, I don't think I would have piped in either. I would be worried about contributing to the uncomfortable drama playing out at what was supposed to be a nice dinner party. I might say something to Tamra after things calmed down like Vicki did at the Christmas party after Heather and Terry left. But, that would be as far as I would be willing to go if I were dealing with someone I knew as well as Vicki knows Tamra.

When did Tamra tell Heather not to repeat the information about the Beador's marriage? Was that something that happened off screen, because she never said that during their lunch. She just told her to ease up on Shannon because there was some stuff going on in her marriage. Then, she told her about the email. Then, they made a joke about something Shannon related. But, I don't recall Tamra ever saying the information was confidential, or asking Heather not to repeat it.

Since everything Aviva does comes across so calculated, it unnerves me that she was willing to throw her leg for the sake of the cameras. You just know that she was waiting for the chance to do something so "shocking" and "provocative" for the sake of being a viable cast member on a trashy tv show.

I think it depends on the number of eons. Aren't they pretty much contemporaries? Given how New York appears to operate, it would make sense to me that she would have come into contact with any and all of them at different times in her life, or even around the same time, and it wouldn't have had anything to do with a minor connection to the Kennedy family. I didn't think a big deal was made of Aviva not going. Aviva made it a big deal with her need to prove that she really does have asthma. Aside from the confrontation in the "cowboy store" where Aviva threw her medication at Kristen, I don't remember it being a major deal. They discussed it once as a group on the trip, and Sonja made a joke about having asthma when she didn't want to get up for another activity. I think the other discussions - aside from the blogs - were brought up by Aviva.

I get what you are saying and I agree. I just think Kristen is like my sister in that she will avoid having to cook if given the option every single time. My sister knows perfectly well how to cook. My parents made sure that all of their kids knew how to cook because they considered it to be a something everyone should know how to do. But, my sister simply does not cook. If there is a way to avoid it she will. I think that with Kristen it's the same thing (I don't know whether or not Kristen can cook and just doesn't or if she just can't cook); if there is a way to avoid cooking she will probably do it. TOTAL SPECULATION ON MY PART: I suspect that Kristen keeps a nanny for things like feeding the kids, but also because she is insecure as a parent. The fact that she and Josh never discussed having kids, is a big part of my suspicion. In my mind, Kristen never expected to be a mom, much less a SAHM. And since she seems to be a worrier, she was afraid to be the one solely responsible for taking care of the kids day-to-day. I think that Heather's remark about how Kristen will have the nanny sleep over and still get up with the kids was pretty telling and backs up my theory. She wants to parent her kids, she just doesn't know how to do the day to day stuff, or is worried that she won't do those things right. So, she keeps a nanny to make sure she doesn't mess up. Like, didn't she have a nanny with her for the play date with Aviva? I thought it was the nanny that Kristen asked to take the kids away when Aviva started dropping F-bombs. It also seems like even when Kristen is interacting with the kids she has a nanny there at least in the background. I don't think that its a matter of Kristen being lazy, I just think she has her own second thoughts about her ability to raise the children herself. And since Josh has made it clear that he doesn't consider the kids to be one of his highest priorities, Kristen relies on the nanny. I actually think that this makes her at least a good enough mom to understand her own limitations as a parent.