Season 12: Good Riddance Lewin!

[Xeliou66]

10 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Yeah it was a really good episode. I like the twist too of the murderer killing the wrong priest. The discussion about whether Father Evans should break the seal of the confession or not. I can see why the church had an issue with it. People need to feel that they can come to confession and their confessions won't be used against them  or reveal to others. That is the point of confession and their role. But I do wish there were exceptions although there's probably no way to make that happen. But knowing that murderer confesses to you and he/she will either get away with it or if someone else is arrest for the crime. They should be able to do something instead of letting an innocent person go to jail. I just can't imagine knowing something like that and doing nothing. Like in this case. I am really glad Father Evans broke his confession. It was the right thing to do but I feel bad that he has to leave the church. I like that Nora stood up to the church too. Lennie and Green were great as always that was a good line from Green.
 

This is one if the only time I agree with Serena. Yes, she lied but she did so in order to save the hostages. He wanted a lawyer and it would take time to find one and send one in. Who knew what would happen if someone else went in? She saved their lives and she saved his life. He turns around and whines because he still got arrest. Dude, you killed two women and just took hostages of course your going to jail. Nope, he whines and listen to him and others acting like Serena did a terrible thing instead of helping to end a hostage situation. I can't believe a judge or anyone else entertained him. 

Yeah The Collar is a great episode - I understood both positions, but in these circumstances Father Evans was right to tell what happened, for the reasons Jack’s priest friend pointed out, this specific conversation wasn’t privileged. I wondered if Father Evans would have to leave the church at the end, because he didn’t technically break the rules given the circumstances, but I took it that he would probably choose leave the priesthood, because he felt he had been compromised as a priest. He did the right thing but it was a tough decision. Bishop Durning who appeared in this episode would appear again in the next season in the episode Under God, where he testified for the prosecution, good continuity. It was a great episode, it was one of Nora’s better episodes, and of course Green and Briscoe were great, I loved how they traced the killer from the gun and got to the bottom of the case. I hope the sleazebag who beat his wife because he thought she was sleeping with the victim went to jail. Overall I would say The Collar is a top 5 episode in season 12.

Serena did the right thing in DR1-102, and I thought it was clear she did what she did to save lives and not to try to build a case. It was crazy to try to disbar her for that. It was another pretty good episode, and Nora’s testimony was interesting, and Briscoe/Green were great as always. But the murderer was a real piece of shit and his whining about Serena was pathetic, given that Serena was the only reason he was still alive. Fuck him.

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 10/5/2023 at 11:02 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Serena did the right thing in DR1-102, and I thought it was clear she did what she did to save lives and not to try to build a case.

No, she didn't. She and the cops denied the perp his right to counsel because they didn't want to what? Lose the collar? Let him be represented so he couldn't confess? Later and later in the seasons, it seemed the cops resented having to issue Miranda warnings and refused to stop questioning when suspects asked for a lawyer-by threatening them.

No, she shouldn't have been disbarred; she got off easy. And pure plot reasons, had Jack representing her--when both Claire and Jack had good lawyers defending them when they appeared before the committee.

I hate "Patriot" so damn much. This season and the next several dealt with more terrorism, than the good variety murders I much prefer! It would have shown BALLS if Wolf had let it be known that Yuseff was actually innocent. But noooo...

Anyhoo, weird thing, been watching on BBCA, which doesn't bleep or edit out, but after the finale of this season, the next season goes back to season 4! Guess they don't have rights to seasons 1-3? Which is a damned shame.

[Xeliou66]

4 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

No, she didn't. She and the cops denied the perp his right to counsel because they didn't want to what? Lose the collar? Let him be represented so he couldn't confess? Later and later in the seasons, it seemed the cops resented having to issue Miranda warnings and refused to stop questioning when suspects asked for a lawyer-by threatening them.

No, she shouldn't have been disbarred; she got off easy. And pure plot reasons, had Jack representing her--when both Claire and Jack had good lawyers defending them when they appeared before the committee.

I hate "Patriot" so damn much. This season and the next several dealt with more terrorism, than the good variety murders I much prefer! It would have shown BALLS if Wolf had let it be known that Yuseff was actually innocent. But noooo...

Anyhoo, weird thing, been watching on BBCA, which doesn't bleep or edit out, but after the finale of this season, the next season goes back to season 4! Guess they don't have rights to seasons 1-3? Which is a damned shame.

They didn’t deny the perp his right to counsel - they could not send in another civilian into a hostage situation where the killer had a knife to a woman’s throat. It had nothing to do with building a case against the killer and everything to do with not wanting anyone to get killed. Serena’s actions probably saved the life of the killer, and it was pathetic how he whined about Serena’s actions when Serena is probably the only reason he was still alive - they could’ve just let SWAT try to take him out. So while Serena did use some deception, she wasn’t doing it to help build a case against the killer, she did it to diffuse the situation. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

They didn’t deny the perp his right to counsel

Yes, they did. Sending in Serena--who was an assistant district attorney--someone who wouldn't and couldn't represent the suspect's interests-is denying him counsel.

They could have sent a defense attorney along with the hostage negotiator who had been speaking with him earlier.

That said, I agree, the suspect was just being stupid about whining because he was guilty. But what Van Buren and Serena did-did violate his right to counsel.

[Xeliou66]

33 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yes, they did. Sending in Serena--who was an assistant district attorney--someone who wouldn't and couldn't represent the suspect's interests-is denying him counsel.

They could have sent a defense attorney along with the hostage negotiator who had been speaking with him earlier.

That said, I agree, the suspect was just being stupid about whining because he was guilty. But what Van Buren and Serena did-did violate his right to counsel.

They couldn’t send another civilian in to a hostage situation - that would be extremely dangerous and very much against protocol, so no they couldn’t send in a defense lawyer. It was either use Serena or let SWAT try to take the guy out. And it’s not like attorney client privilege would’ve applied in that situation, the presence of the hostage meant that any conversation they had wouldn’t be privileged. Serena misled the killer but she had no choice, they couldn’t let a civilian go in. Serena’s actions are the only reason that piece of shit would have a chance at being free again, and his whining about Serena violating his rights pissed me off, he would likely have left in a body bag if not for Serena. There was no way to honor the suspects request for a lawyer when he was making the request at while holding a woman at knifepoint. 

[andromeda331]

9 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

They couldn’t send another civilian in to a hostage situation - that would be extremely dangerous and very much against protocol, so no they couldn’t send in a defense lawyer. It was either use Serena or let SWAT try to take the guy out. And it’s not like attorney client privilege would’ve applied in that situation, the presence of the hostage meant that any conversation they had wouldn’t be privileged. Serena misled the killer but she had no choice, they couldn’t let a civilian go in. Serena’s actions are the only reason that piece of shit would have a chance at being free again, and his whining about Serena violating his rights pissed me off, he would likely have left in a body bag if not for Serena. There was no way to honor the suspects request for a lawyer when he was making the request at while holding a woman at knifepoint. 

I agree the cops would never send another civilian into a hostage situation.

[GHScorpiosRule]

17 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

They couldn’t send another civilian in to a hostage situation - that would be extremely dangerous and very much against protocol, so no they couldn’t send in a defense lawyer. It was either use Serena or let SWAT try to take the guy out. And it’s not like attorney client privilege would’ve applied in that situation, the presence of the hostage meant that any conversation they had wouldn’t be privileged. Serena misled the killer but she had no choice, they couldn’t let a civilian go in. Serena’s actions are the only reason that piece of shit would have a chance at being free again, and his whining about Serena violating his rights pissed me off, he would likely have left in a body bag if not for Serena. There was no way to honor the suspects request for a lawyer when he was making the request at while holding a woman at knifepoint. 

 

7 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I agree the cops would never send another civilian into a hostage situation.

This will be my last comment about this; I confirmed this with one of my attorneys, and the perp absolutely was denied counsel; and in real life, Serena would have been disbarred.

But since this is a fiction show, let's just agree to disagree. Because as stated above, the hostage negotiator could have come in with counsel.

[Xeliou66]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

 

This will be my last comment about this; I confirmed this with one of my attorneys, and the perp absolutely was denied counsel; and in real life, Serena would have been disbarred.

But since this is a fiction show, let's just agree to disagree. Because as stated above, the hostage negotiator could have come in with counsel.

Yeah I just have to disagree - they would never let another civilian enter a hostage situation, that would be extremely reckless and dangerous and could go very badly. So it was either use Serena or ignore the perp’s request entirely - there’s no way they could honor his request for counsel. Serena didn’t do what she did to try to build a case against him, she did it to diffuse the situation. The disciplinary committee got it right. 

[Xeliou66]

The Fire This Time is a good episode, I saw it on BBC America this week, but Nora gets on my nerves in it - she acted like the perps should get off easier because they were young and idealistic and she even implied that they should treat the case differently because it was arson for an ideology instead of arson for profit - give me a fucking break Nora - as Jack said the law doesn’t differentiate motives for premeditated arson and a woman burned to death regardless - the Manhattan DA should know that it’s not a good precedent to set to give certain defendants better treatment, she shouldn’t need the law spelled out for her, that annoyed me. Jack gave the defendants every chance to take a plea but the 2 guys chose to reject it, Nora at the end acted like they should feel guilty about sending them away, which was bullshit - a woman was burned alive, I’ll save my sympathy for her and her family. The perps knew that setting a building on fire was very dangerous and could get someone killed and they deserved to be held accountable for it. 
The discussion between Jack and the website guy was interesting, I understood both points of view there, I think we were supposed to find the website guy unsympathetic but he made some valid points. 
The detective work was great, I love Briscoe/Green, I liked how they tracked down the witness and then found the culprits starting with the pay phone call and asking around about the girl, classic L&O detective work. Lennie and Ed are unmatched as a detective pairing.

Three Dawg Night is an average episode, albeit predictable, it was pretty clear that the rapper’s girlfriend would be the culprit, it seemed like it took everyone forever to reach that conclusion or even consider the possibility they were so focused on the rapper. Seemed like it kind of dragged on and on. I loved the reference to Ron Carver in this one, where Nora asked if Carver should work with Jack on the case because of race being a factor - nice continuity between the shows - it’s just a shame we never got a scene between Carver and Jack, that would’ve been awesome.

Prejudice is a solid episode - I like the detective stuff as always and the case was interesting. Nora was once again kind of soft and irritating, there was no validity to the defense’s claim about racism being a mental illness - it clearly isn’t. The perp was just a hateful piece of crap with severe anger issues, Skoda was right in his analysis of him, and he was right that there’s no treatment option for racism. It’s not a mental illness and it was offensive how the defense expert compared the racist killer to people with cancer and AIDS. The killer deserved to rot, he clearly knew right from wrong. 

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

The Fire This Time is a good episode, I saw it on BBC America this week, but Nora gets on my nerves in it - she acted like the perps should get off easier because they were young and idealistic and she even implied that they should treat the case differently because it was arson for an ideology instead of arson for profit - give me a fucking break Nora - as Jack said the law doesn’t differentiate motives for premeditated arson and a woman burned to death regardless - the Manhattan DA should know that it’s not a good precedent to set to give certain defendants better treatment, she shouldn’t need the law spelled out for her, that annoyed me. Jack gave the defendants every chance to take a plea but the 2 guys chose to reject it, Nora at the end acted like they should feel guilty about sending them away, which was bullshit - a woman was burned alive, I’ll save my sympathy for her and her family. The perps knew that setting a building on fire was very dangerous and could get someone killed and they deserved to be held accountable for it. 

I agree with you my sympathizes are with the victim and her family. Nora's an idiot for thinking the men should go free because they were young idealistic. So are some terrorists. Should they go free too? They killed someone they go to jail. It's really that simple. 

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

The Fire This Time is a good episode, I saw it on BBC America this week, but Nora gets on my nerves in it - she acted like the perps should get off easier because they were young and idealistic and she even implied that they should treat the case differently because it was arson for an ideology instead of arson for profit - give me a fucking break Nora - as Jack said the law doesn’t differentiate motives for premeditated arson and a woman burned to death regardless - the Manhattan DA should know that it’s not a good precedent to set to give certain defendants better treatment, she shouldn’t need the law spelled out for her, that annoyed me. Jack gave the defendants every chance to take a plea but the 2 guys chose to reject it, Nora at the end acted like they should feel guilty about sending them away, which was bullshit - a woman was burned alive, I’ll save my sympathy for her and her family. The perps knew that setting a building on fire was very dangerous and could get someone killed and they deserved to be held accountable for it. 
The discussion between Jack and the website guy was interesting, I understood both points of view there, I think we were supposed to find the website guy unsympathetic but he made some valid points. 
The detective work was great, I love Briscoe/Green, I liked how they tracked down the witness and then found the culprits starting with the pay phone call and asking around about the girl, classic L&O detective work. Lennie and Ed are unmatched as a detective pairing.

Three Dawg Night is an average episode, albeit predictable, it was pretty clear that the rapper’s girlfriend would be the culprit, it seemed like it took everyone forever to reach that conclusion or even consider the possibility they were so focused on the rapper. Seemed like it kind of dragged on and on. I loved the reference to Ron Carver in this one, where Nora asked if Carver should work with Jack on the case because of race being a factor - nice continuity between the shows - it’s just a shame we never got a scene between Carver and Jack, that would’ve been awesome.

I would have loved to see Carver and Jack on a case together. That would have been awesome. I did laugh how at the end the rapper no longer had fans because he was he didn't really shoot anyone. Fans really can be fickle. Not being a murderer should be a good thing. I do agree it took them a long time to realize it was the girlfriend. They were all over the motive and both men were clearly lying they should have figured it out a lot sooner.
 

Quote

 

Prejudice is a solid episode - I like the detective stuff as always and the case was interesting. Nora was once again kind of soft and irritating, there was no validity to the defense’s claim about racism being a mental illness - it clearly isn’t. The perp was just a hateful piece of crap with severe anger issues, Skoda was right in his analysis of him, and he was right that there’s no treatment option for racism. It’s not a mental illness and it was offensive how the defense expert compared the racist killer to people with cancer and AIDS. The killer deserved to rot, he clearly knew right from wrong. 

 

I agree. Racism is not a metal illness. It's not the same thing as cancer or AIDS or even alcoholism. He was racist because he wanted to be. Nora annoyed me in this one because it's a bullshit argument. How she could entertain the idea I don't know.

[Xeliou66]

11 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I agree with you my sympathizes are with the victim and her family. Nora's an idiot for thinking the men should go free because they were young idealistic. So are some terrorists. Should they go free too? They killed someone they go to jail. It's really that simple. 

Yeah Nora was acting like the DAs should feel bad about convicting the arsonists - I didn’t get that, they set a fire that killed someone, they deserved to be convicted and they turned down the plea deals that were offered. The DAs had nothing to feel guilty about.

11 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I would have loved to see Carver and Jack on a case together. That would have been awesome. I did laugh how at the end the rapper no longer had fans because he was he didn't really shoot anyone. Fans really can be fickle. Not being a murderer should be a good thing. I do agree it took them a long time to realize it was the girlfriend. They were all over the motive and both men were clearly lying they should have figured it out a lot sooner.
 

I agree. Racism is not a metal illness. It's not the same thing as cancer or AIDS or even alcoholism. He was racist because he wanted to be. Nora annoyed me in this one because it's a bullshit argument. How she could entertain the idea I don't know.

It’s really too bad Carver never appeared on the Mothership or that McCoy never appeared on CI - I really would’ve loved seeing them work together. But yeah it seemed to take forever for them to consider the possibility the girlfriend was the shooter, it should’ve occurred to them as a possibility much sooner.

Nora annoyed me in Prejudice as well - it’s clear that racism isn’t a mental illness, the guy was just a violent hateful scumbag. And unlike with mental illness, there’s no treatment for racism/bigotry. The perp here followed the victim for a while before shooting him, it was a premeditated hate crime. It’s a pretty good episode, I liked the mention of the season 5 episode where the perp used a “black rage” defense. 

[andromeda331]

10 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Nora annoyed me in Prejudice as well - it’s clear that racism isn’t a mental illness, the guy was just a violent hateful scumbag. And unlike with mental illness, there’s no treatment for racism/bigotry. The perp here followed the victim for a while before shooting him, it was a premeditated hate crime. It’s a pretty good episode, I liked the mention of the season 5 episode where the perp used a “black rage” defense. 

Yeah, he had plenty of time to calm down and didn't.

[Xeliou66]

The Collar might be my favorite season 12 episode - really compelling case about the wrong priest getting killed and the perp trying to silence the priest over the murder he confessed to him a couple of years earlier. Father Evans was put in a tough position but he did the right thing by telling what happened, and the DAs were correct that the confession wasn’t legally privileged, and putting the killer away and freeing the innocent person is what mattered most. I wonder if Father Evans would continue to be a priest after this. The perp was scum, he killed 2 people and didn’t feel any remorse for it. I liked seeing Nora deal with the church lawyer, she did a good job in this episode, and I liked Jack’s interactions with Father Evans and with his priest friend - Jack always had respect for the law and its protections and he was sympathetic to the church’s position about not wanting to interfere with the priest/penitent privilege as he knew it was important but he also did what needed to be done in closing the case and I liked how he reminded the Bishop that the perp wasn’t asking for forgiveness and that the court would decide whether it was admissible. 
Briscoe/Green will always be the best detective pairing, I loved their investigation and them tracking down the perp from the gun - Green yelling “get your ass back here, stupid!” to the perp when he ran was great. Also great was the gas station owner telling his employee who stole his gun he had already lost his job when the guy was whining about it. 
It’s an outstanding episode, might be my favorite from season 12.

Undercovered is a frustrating episode, the murder wasn’t justified and the jury should’ve convicted the perp, the victim didn’t deserve to die because of the flaws of the healthcare/insurance system, and Nora was annoying me with her sympathy for the perp. Jack’s closing was good but I guess some of the jurors were just too sympathetic to the defendant’s situation. Interesting case but a frustrating ending. Briscoe/Green were great as always. 

[andromeda331]

14 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Undercovered is a frustrating episode, the murder wasn’t justified and the jury should’ve convicted the perp, the victim didn’t deserve to die because of the flaws of the healthcare/insurance system, and Nora was annoying me with her sympathy for the perp. Jack’s closing was good but I guess some of the jurors were just too sympathetic to the defendant’s situation. Interesting case but a frustrating ending. Briscoe/Green were great as always. 

This one I really wouldn't be able to serve on the jury because of the child's death plus my own family history of cancer I wouldn't be able to be objective. While the victim was just doing his job it's hard not to wonder if the treatment would have saved the life or not. The healthcare/insurence system was messed up and it still is. It all comes down to money and not actually helping people.  

[balmz]

Same I could not serve on the jury, there’s too much history with me and my family with health issues, also I am aware that the victim was “just doing their job “ but that mentally aka just following orders has been used too often to try to justify or excuse atrocities against my people and even my family, its a very dangerous mentality to have 

I do wonder if the whole killing thing was supposed to be a literal version of the saying you would die or kill for your family

if the writers did want to have the killer face some form of conquensce , they could do after the trial, the kid takes a turn for the worse suddenly and dies making the father’s actions all for nothing 

[Spartan Girl]

8 hours ago, balmz said:

if the writers did want to have the killer face some form of conquensce , they could do after the trial, the kid takes a turn for the worse suddenly and dies making the father’s actions all for nothing 

Or have the mother be so horrified and repulsed by his actions that she filed for divorce and got full custody of the child. Or have social services take the child from their custody because leaving a terminally ill child in the care of a man who beat someone to death with a hammer is just stupid. I would have accepted any one of those three endings instead of the one we got.

Edited October 4 by Spartan Girl

[balmz]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Or have the mother be so horrified and repulsed by his actions that she filed for divorce and got full custody of the child. Or have social services take the child from their custody because leaving a terminally ill child in the care of a man who beat someone to death with a hammer is just stupid. I would have accepted any one of those three endings instead of the one we got.

True although the kid dying anyway is kinda more potent and sad, that they went through all that and it was for nothing, with the other two endings the father at least knows the kid is alive and is possibly fine with that as long as their child is ok but this negates any bit of hope