Stan: The Patriot

[SusanSunflower]

In real life, many men are blindsided by unhappy wives wanting divorce, but Stan and Emmerich had plenty of warning -- words and actions -- articulated clearly by Sandra that while she was happy to "work on herself" and the marriage, but that things needed to change in the authenticity and intimacy departments.  Stan (but less so Emmerich) might believe that a hot wife and lots of good sex was all that was needed for a "happy marriage", lookiing like happy vacation pictures or a hallmark commercial, but Sandra was clear enough that she wasn't going to settle for that ...  going through the motions, being used like a prop -- "my wife"... "mother of my son" without being seen as Sandra. 

Edited June 17, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Bannon]

3 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

In real life, many men are blindsided by unhappy wives wanting divorce, but Stan and Emmerich had plenty of warning -- words and actions -- articulated clearly by Sandra that while she was happy to "work on herself" and the marriage, but that things needed to change in the authenticity and intimacy departments.  Stan (but less so Emmerich) might believe that a hot wife and lots of good sex was all that was needed for a "happy marriage", lookiing like happy vacation pictures or a hallmark commercial, but Sandra was clear enough that she wasn't going to settle for that ...  going through the motions, being used like a prop -- "my wife"... "mother of my son" without being seen as Sandra. 

For the actor to say that, about a character who volunteered for a job that would entail him having no communication with his family for years, indicates to me that neither he or the writers researched the character at all. I do not understand it.

[SusanSunflower]

Thinking about the pre-undercover Stan, and the happy times in his marriage to Sandra (which likely were largely similar to bad times except she was silent.  He may well have benefited from some type of living-in-the-real-world therapy but I don't remember him being "off" with Aderhold or others at work, except for a sort of immature high-school jock / macho presentation that no one -- least of all Gaad -- was buying. 

I don't know if cops/FBI or otherwise have the same problem/achilles heel that doctors do but I suspect many jobs can be exploited as "so stressful" with long hours and a need to decompress with peers (whether the golf course or the sports bar) that wives "need to" either accept a lot of abandonment (for themselves and their kids) or need to make some decision about where they want to be in 5 or 10 years.  "It's the reality of being a cop's wife" ... and I'd guess Philip could relate in his marriage to Elizabeth.  A wife like Sandra may well stay until the kid is in high school (particularly if said-kid recognized the hollowness and the tension) but then (particularly if the kid is noticing) it's just too hard. 

Edited June 17, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Plums]

The more I rewatch, the more I'm marveling at how well they set up the possibility that Stan would let them go in the end and lie to the FBI about it, and how I never even got near to predicting it. But it makes so much sense for his character.

People don't remember, but Stan literally walked to the cliff's edge of active, willful espionage and treason for Nina. And it was super easy for him too. He used his position as an FBI counterintelligence agent to set up meetings with people and gain access to the most sensitive and top secret technology in the military just because he could credibly use the pretext of "the soviets are after it- show me what/where this is", and he was cool as a cucumber doing it. In the end, he got absolutely everything they needed, remaining totally above suspicion, and all that was left was to leave it at a dead drop. He couldn't take that last step because ultimately Nina wasn't more valuable to him than his loyalty to his country, but the fact that he went so far and came so close in the first place really says something. As for how capable he is of obfuscation with his bosses- Obviously he never told anyone at the FBI what he almost did. He lied to Walter Taffet about his relationship with Nina during the Gaad Bug investigation, and even when it was obvious Gaad and Aderholdt had figured out he had an affair with her and could have been compromised, he never confirmed it with either of them and maintained the denial. 

With the Jenningses, that relationship was much more real and long established than his relationship with Nina. They were family to him. And the act of committing treason in letting them go was much more passive and less damaging action than giving the Soviets Echo was. The fact that it would do good on top of all the personal motivations, in stopping a coup in the USSR of a reformist leader trying to negotiate an end to the Cold War in good faith? I buy completely that he couldn't do anything but let them go in that moment, and I buy completely that he would be capable of credibly lying to the FBI about it and faking surprise in the motions required of him to keep up that story later. 

All this together, I think he's going to wind up helping Paige. After sitting for awhile to compose and fortify herself while she considers her options, the most likely scenario I envision for Paige is that her first move will be to go to Stan. She knows she can trust him. She'll call him or go to his house or something. They'll get their story straight about that night, work out the timing so it checks out with his absence from the FBI stakeout, and then she'll go in for questioning and ultimately come out of it relatively unscathed. She doesn't want to come clean, she wants to be there for her brother. I don't see her having an issue lying about her minimal level of active involvement. 

It's interesting to me to think about Stan's future, wrt his relationship with the Jennings kids (and maybe even Philip one day), not just Henry, but Paige as well. I think he genuinely loves Henry and wouldn't feel conflicted about remaining a part of his life if Henry needed him (and despite how independent Henry is, I feel like he'll need the support of someone who loves him). He's said he loves Paige in the past, when she was dating Matthew, and he probably does still feel some familial attachment to her as well. Ultimately, the particularly devastating, extremely personal betrayal that Philip and Elizabeth being spies constitutes in the lives of the kids and Stan is something that the three of them have in common that can really bind them. They'll be even more bound if the kids become the only ones who know he let their parents go. But I go back and forth on him becoming a permanent part of their lives or eventually wanting to cut them out entirely, maybe if Henry drifts away as an adult, because of how they'll represent this time and those people that basically destroyed him. I tend to come down more on the side of the former, since I'm a very optimistic speculator. With that in mind, regarding Philip-

Since I feel like Renee will revealed to be a spy in short order, combined with the FBI probably figuring out from multiple corroborating sources (Andrei, Paige, probably Oleg as well) that Philip had burned out of the spying trade for three years before Oleg approached him about helping to stop a coup, I think Stan will eventually be able to reconcile the conflicted feelings he has towards Philip. He'll figure out that he was told mostly the truth in that garage. Knowing Philip was the male illegal from the operations in season 1, as well as Clark Westerfeld (and probably that he killed Gene) will fuck him up for a long time, but honestly, the FBI doesn't know about or even suspect the vast majority of their operations, and the string of deaths that happened in season 6 were due to Elizabeth, not Philip. (It's interesting to think about, but if it wasn't so personal, I think hypothetically Stan and Elizabeth could have a very interesting connection that he doesn't share with Philip. Stan's undercover experience probably has way more in common with her's than Philip's, in terms of how they saw and related to the people and the community they were infiltrating.)

Anyway, I could actually see Stan and Philip talking again years down the line, in a situation where 1)Philip's warning about Renee panned out, 2) he became a permanent fixture in the kids' lives, 3) the kids eventually reconcile with their parents, and 4) He could ignore Elizabeth or she wouldn't be in the picture anymore (maybe it happens after she dies of lung cancer), cause I don't think he'll ever be able to reconcile with her. idk, I don't think it's impossible. But then, I'm a ridiculous optimist. 

[Umbelina]

Not a chance.

Stan will be, at the very least, out of a job and disgraced.

You are pinning all of that on Stan committing more crimes while depending on the completely incompetent and idiotic Paige to "stick to the lies" he and she supposedly make up.

I honestly don't think you understand the kind of questioning Paige will undergo.  This is HUGE.  It's not going to be in Aderholt's hands.  Several agencies will question her, and we are talking about major heavy hitters, skilled in questioning.  Stan is not stupid enough to think that Paige will be able to stand up under questioning, and MORE IMPORTANTLY, Paige being honest would help the USA, and the FBI catch more KGB agents posing as Americans. 

For Stan to deliberately mislead lead them and commit more crimes by suborning testimony?  Oh please.  At best he resigns, and tries to put his life back together while running a Burger King or something.  He'll also lose his pension by retiring so young, if that's what he's lucky enough to do.

A person is guilty of suborning perjury if he/she attempts to induce a witness to give false testimony under oath in a court or other proceeding, and the witness actually gives false testimony.

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/suborning-perjury.htm

Then there is Renee, about to start work at the FBI, and probably KGB herself.  You honestly think Stan is going to put himself in a position to undermine his life's work by not doing something about that? 

Stan is by far the most screwed of all of the screwed people in this story.  He has no good options.  At all. 

[Plums]

you keep saying the same thing, and by this point should know your very different perspective doesn't sway me at all. I don't care what would happen in reality. I'm watching a tv show that is blatantly a different universe that operates on the rule of drama, and I choose an eventual somewhat happy ending because I am a hopeful person. 

[Erin9]

@Plums

Yeah. They did set Stan up a long time ago to basically let P/E walk- without making it at all obvious that he would. It’s impressive.  

The Nina situation foreshadowed his ability to go through with it for someone he was closer to when he wasn’t giving away something like Echo. Not to mention, Nina’s fate haunted him. I suspect Oleg being stuck in prison has and will bother him. He KNOWS Oleg was doing a good thing for both countries. It’s not really “right” what happened to him. Letting P/E  go maybe alleviates a little of the sadness and frustration for him. They were serving their country, but they weren’t traitors to his- a la say Martha. 

Your future very optimistic scenario is basically the one I’ve made up too. Within this world, I totally buy both Paige and Stan working together and shutting up. Both are  capable of secret keeping. I suspect Henry will later be in on the fact Stan let them go. It just makes sense to me that they’d let him in on it. It would also be an easy way of getting to tell Henry some of the relevant things Philip said in the garage. 

It wouldn’t surprise me if Stan retires shortly after. I can see him just being over all of it. He’ll certainly never go back to CI. Renee will be quickly outted as a spy, which I can come up with ways for Stan to handle without revealing who he got the idea from. The guys best friend was a spy. May as well do a deep dive into the rest of his life. 

It’s funny you should mention Stan and Philip talking in the future. I’ve made up scenarios that have Stan tagging along with Paige and Henry to visit Philip. I think Stan recognizes all the parallels between him and Philip- they just served different countries. Both men could get behind world peace, both burned out by spying, were patriots, fathers, spies, even killers, etc.  Even though Stan didn’t know it at the time, he and Philip clicked for a reason: they mostly got each other. 

He’d also be able to make comparisons between the KGB and CIA. Again- just playing for a different team.

 Oleg really tried to drive home to him that they’re all just people like anyone else- most of whom want the same things. I think it’s clear Stan took that to heart in the end.  

As for Elizabeth/Stan- I don’t factor her in much at all. He and Philip can meet on their own or with the kids or he can tolerate Elizabeth’s presence, but not engage with her. She and Stan were never close to begin with. He was close with Philip first, then Henry, and finally Paige....Elizabeth was part of the family obviously, but he had no real relationship with her anyway. She’d be the hardest one to reconcile with though. (Story of Elizabeth’s life it seems.) 

Edited June 30, 2018 by Erin9

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Plums said:

you keep saying the same thing, and by this point should know your very different perspective doesn't sway me at all. I don't care what would happen in reality. I'm watching a tv show that is blatantly a different universe that operates on the rule of drama, and I choose an eventual somewhat happy ending because I am a hopeful person. 

Not really.

This time you suggested Stan commit yet another crime that could and would land him in prison, suborning perjury from an unstable, immature, scared 20 year old, and basing his treason and optimistic escape on Paige being able to keep her story straight during what WOULD be vigorous and extensive questioning by many pros.

That took it to the YA extremes of unbelievably. 

It would never happen.  Stan's many things, but a complete idiot is not one of those things.  This show played with reality, but it was still based in the real world.

Real world Paige against the US top cops and probably senate questions?  Sure, Paige would win.

Or that Stan would even think she might win?  Major fantasy.

[Plums]

we'll agree to disagree on Paige's characterization and how the FBI functions in the universe of this show. 

[Plums]

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

The Nina situation foreshadowed his ability to go through with it for someone he was closer to when he wasn’t giving away something like Echo. Not to mention, Nina’s fate haunted him. I suspect Oleg being stuck in prison has and will bother him. He KNOWS Oleg was doing a good thing for both countries. It’s not really “right” what happened to him. Letting P/E  go maybe alleviates a little of the sadness and frustration for him. They were serving their country, but they weren’t traitors to his- a la say Martha. 

It's interesting you bring up Martha, and how Stan would ultimately consider her actions in a less sympathetic light than Philip's. Like, those ways in which Stan could understand and recognize and reconcile Philip's actions, I don't see Stan coming to that mental place for a very long time, just because of how much personal hurt is involved. seeing Philip as his own, or a CIA counterpart, and thus someone he felt he had a mutual understanding with, is a very objective, removed read on Philip that maybe someone who wasn't his devastated, humiliated best friend could reach more easily, though I do think it will be there subconsciously and help him get all the way there eventually. But Martha betrayed her country for a lover. She allowed herself to be manipulated and made complicit in espionage by a honeytrap. I suspect Stan knew on some level and was in denial that Nina had turned triple agent. I mean, that's what his closest colleagues think, and the clues are all there and pretty blatant. The way he despises Martha I think is in part some projected self hatred for a weakness he knows he has himself. The difference is that he was able to ultimately have the strength to not go through with something that would have been too consequential, and he was able to lose Nina for it. Martha could not. It's really interesting to me to note the differences between Stan and Aderholdt's reactions to Martha. They both think of her in black and white, no good-devious-KGB loving-turncoat terms in the immediate crisis and aftermath of exposure and exfiltration, but later on, I think Aderholdt was genuinely moved by her dad's pleas for them to not give up on the investigation and insistence that Martha was an exceptional, fundamentally decent person. He went back and investigated. Whereas Stan viewed talking to the man as a chore, and it was killing him to keep a straight face in front of this guy singing the praises of his traitor daughter's virtue to him. He still had absolutely no sympathy for her at all. 

[Erin9]

IA- I think it would take time for Stan to get to that mental place. He has to deal with the fact that he, a CI FBI agent, was best friends with someone he was hunting. And he didn’t see it. For years. It’s humiliating. And it goes without saying that it is very hurtful to get lied to- even though Philip wasn’t trying to hurt him. But I see him able to reach that point of objectivity. Philip and Oleg already laid groundwork for him.

And honestly? I think talking to Henry might be helpful. Because I see him trying to explain things to him in the kindest way possible- and that will mean really thinking about parallels between himself and Philip, KGB/CIA, what it means to love your country that much, etc. That won’t fix the lies and deception, but it’s a start. And again- Philip started that ball rolling for him. 

I always thought of Aderholt as mostly being kind, and compassionate  to an old man- Martha’s father. He loved his daughter. He was in denial about her actions. It’s been awhile since I’ve seen the episode, but I didn’t think Aderholt had much sympathy for Martha then either.  But perhaps he did come to realize that it wasn’t as simple as saying Martha was evil. The end. She had good qualities- traitorism aside. Stan just struck me as cold. Martha was a traitor, and, because of that, he just couldn’t really be kind and understanding to her father at least. 

I hadn’t thought about it, but yes, I can see Stan really hating that Martha couldn’t give up Clark, but Stan could give up Nina. He had been in her shoes. It was close. He almost was Martha. He probably did hate that he came so close too.

He also probably did know deep down Nina was a triple agent. I think the most he allowed out loud was a maybe when Aderholt floated it to him. 

What’s interesting is: he didn’t think any less of Nina for betraying HER country. Of course- he was the one who blackmailed her into it. And he hated the USSR. But still- interesting that he wasn’t disgusted that she would just betray it. He had no compassion for Martha turning on the US for love, but Nina turning from the USSR to avoid prison was okay.  But I get why he differentiated between the two. He could get turning on the USSR- that evil empire. Turning on the US for any reason was a totally different thing of course! 

So, if Philip’s betrayal had been like Martha’s - he was Stan’s best friend, a real American and had turned either before or after meeting Stan- forget it. That would be hopeless. 

But I think Stan can ultimately understand lying in the service of one’s own country. Even the USSR. Especially after Oleg and Philip’s passionate speeches on the subject  of caring about their homeland/family/people just as Stan did his. 

But any scenario I have of P/S talking and being in a good place is years down the line. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

I hadn’t thought about it, but yes, I can see Stan really hating that Martha couldn’t give up Clark, but Stan could give up Nina. He had been in her shoes. It was close. He almost was Martha. He probably did hate that he came so close too.

There's always been some ways where Stan's like Elizabeth and I think this is one of them. It's just different when he does it. He saw Nina, after all, as a woman he was supposed to protect who was spying *for* the USA (which is not being a traitor because the USA is the good guys). He could come up with plenty of justifications for why it was moral for him to want to protect Nina that had nothing at all to do with their relationship or himself. He thought the US should have been doing everything it could to protect her, including trading Zinaida for her instead of whatever US intelligent agents were in prison in Russia.

Martha, by contrast, was just suckered by a Soviet Romeo. Stan never allowed himself to consider the possibility that he was that too. Twice, now. Three if you count Philip. Stan could really use some therapy to figure out why he seems so drawn to relationships like that.

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

And honestly? I think talking to Henry might be helpful. Because I see him trying to explain things to him in the kindest way possible- and that will mean really thinking about parallels between himself and Philip, KGB/CIA, what it means to love your country that much, etc. That won’t fix the lies and deception, but it’s a start. And again- Philip started that ball rolling for him. 

This is funny to me because I agree with it, but also one of the only things that I have in my personal head canon, now that we've got the whole show and so the whole Henry characterization, is Henry not having much relationship with any of these people in life. But I can totally see Stan talking to him early on and working out some things for himself that way before Henry's able to ghost!

[Roseanna]

On ‎11‎.‎4‎.‎2018 at 9:58 PM, Umbelina said:

As far as the stuff in the other thread about Stan not being undercover material, or the FBI not training him about how to be undercover?

First, of course he had training, probably intense training, especially about who the players were, common norms for groups like that so he would fit in, I'm sure reams of reading their ideology and memorizing extensive backgrounds about each known member of the group he was infiltrating.  Their backgrounds, marriages, affairs, kids, moms and dads, down to problems they had in high school.  He probably knew which aftershave they used.  He was trained.

- - -

We've seen that he has good instincts, he sensed that Russian defector was a plant, and busted her, he figured out the guy that was going to kill that delegation from the roof, by footwork and putting in the hours, he figured out Martha. 

Stan may have been well trained in the undercover work, but that's not true to his work in counter-intelligence. He was so lazy that learning the basics of the Russian language was too much to him whereas P&E learned English fluently. And Philip understands the American mentality whereas Stan, in his feeling of the American superiority couldn't suspect even afterwards that Nina had betrayed him.

No doubt Stan has instincts but he also believes stubborly in them whereas Bernard Samson in Len Deighton's trilogy said that when he gets to his questions just the answers he has waited for, he begins to doubt that he has asked wrong questions.  

[Roseanna]

On ‎11‎.‎4‎.‎2018 at 10:28 PM, Bannon said:

I guess I just don't buy the character, mostly due to the bio they gave him. It isn't because he hasn't detected the true identities of Phil and Liz. That isn't the point at all. It is because at no point have I ever observed the Stan shown on the screen, and thought, "That's the sort of emotional intelligence and manipulative skills a person would have, if they worked highly successfully for years as an FBI undercover agent". 

(Edit) To add on, it was the Nina and Stan relationship that made my eyes roll so hard I developed a headache. No, I do not believe for one second that someone with Stan's bio would become sentimental about Nina, because he was having sex with her, and thus become compromised. It kind of totally destroyed, along with how it was portrayed that he was traumatized by his divorce, whatever ability I had to gain anything entertaining from his character.

 

On ‎11‎.‎4‎.‎2018 at 10:53 PM, Umbelina said:

Stan wasn't just "having sex" with Nina.

She was his first intimate and honest relationship in years, he fell completely in love with her.   She was a trained KGB agent, who knew how to spot weaknesses and vulnerabilities and needs.  Stan certainly wasn't the first, and will not be the last, intelligent man seduced romantically by a beautiful spy, who appeared to love sex with him, appreciate him, depend on him, love him.

When she was in danger, those feelings came out even more for Stan, Gaad's casual acceptance of her likely death was chilling to him. 

He was like a man who had been crawling through a desert for years, and Nina, as a trained agent, was able to appear to be the oasis he longed for.  He could actually be intimate with her, share quite a bit with her, his experiences wouldn't horrify her, as they would have horrified his wife.  He could, and in fact HAD to discuss work with her, true, not completely honestly, but still, he was able to share himself finally. 

If he hadn't just been in hell with the White Supremacists, if he didn't have to keep most of his life from his wife and son, if he hadn't gone through the divorce, would he have been as vulnerable?  Probably not.

I agree with Bannon that Stan really lacked "the sort of emotional intelligence and manipulative skills a person would have, if they worked highly successfully for years as an FBI undercover agent". But maybe it was relatively easy with White Supremacists - just telling them what they wated to hear, like Stan told. He is basically a simple and straightforwards man, basically always the same, not a man with many faces like Gadi Becker in The Little Drummer Girl by John le Carré (although Becker also fell in love with his agent Charlie).

Whereas the Isreali intelligence officer Becker could tell Charlie the story of the Palestianians as if he were one of them, Stan had only a little knowledge of Russia which was one of the reasons why he didn't suspect Nina although of course the main reasons were personal.

That said, I liked Stan and Nina's story although only rewatching I realized how skillfully Nina treated Stan. before and after Vlad's murder. 

On ‎8‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 7:53 AM, Umbelina said:

 

I do think we've seen his some of his successes though.  True, his boss only talked about his 24 indictments of the White Nationalists he busted, but we did see him bust Zenaida, and we saw him, and him alone, bust the guy with the rifle on the roof, preventing assassinations.  For a while he did get inside information from Nina too, and he probably would have continued to do so if he didn't emotionally kill Vlad and turn her against him.  He forged a bond with Oleg as well, and that too paid off.  That's a LOT in one career, all on it's own.  If it matters, the crime he was investigating before  pulled back into counter intelligence?  Someone in the episode thread said that one played out to be a huge win for the FBI as well, rather a famous case.  He was also the ONLY one to suspect Martha, thus ending her spying forever.

Zenaida alone was what one calls "making your career."  After a case like that?  You can skate as an agent, it's HUGE.

 

 

On ‎30‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 9:45 PM, Plums said:

It's interesting to me, how extensive and complete a psychological profile the KGB must have on Stan by this point. They have the files from Nina and the years of observing him the Jennings have reported. Given that, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Renee is a honeypot that's been perfectly designed for him, and the whole relationship being a long con to get her into the FBI. After all, by the time she enters the picture, the KGB no longer has any bugs or assets giving them information, and you know they'd want to replace all that. 

I forgot just how suspicious the feds were of Stan after the bug was found in Gaad's office. They knew he could have been compromised by Nina, and the only reason he wasn't fired for pursuing the plot with Oleg on his own was because the Deputy AG liked that his methods got results. And then Stan got on his bad side by literally blackmailing the organization into leaving Oleg alone. There is totally precedent for the higher ups in the Justice Department thinking Stan could be compromised. If he lets the Jennings escape in the series finale, I could see him getting arrested. Hell, I could see them thinking he colluded with them all along. 

I don't deny that Stan had his moments but Stan had also a huge weakness that Gaad resented: he liked to act alone, not telling his boss. Gaad's boss liked it because he valued only the results, obviously not realizing that it also made more possible treasonable acts.      

In this thread Stan is called a patriot. Thinking all he did during six seasons, would it better call him "a maverick"? 

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Stan may have been well trained in the undercover work, but that's not true to his work in counter-intelligence. He was so lazy that learning the basics of the Russian language was too much to him whereas P&E learned English fluently. And Philip understands the American mentality whereas Stan, in his feeling of the American superiority couldn't suspect even afterwards that Nina had betrayed him.

 

 

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I agree with Bannon that Stan really lacked "the sort of emotional intelligence and manipulative skills a person would have, if they worked highly successfully for years as an FBI undercover agent". But maybe it was relatively easy with White Supremacists - just telling them what they wated to hear, like Stan told. He is basically a simple and straightforwards man, basically always the same, not a man with many faces like Gadi Becker in The Little Drummer Girl by John le Carré (although Becker also fell in love with his agent Charlie).

Whereas the Isreali intelligence officer Becker could tell Charlie the story of the Palestianians as if he were one of them, Stan had only a little knowledge of Russia which was one of the reasons why he didn't suspect Nina although of course the main reasons were personal.

Yes, Stan held together to me as a character, but I never thought of him as an undercover agent of that kind. I knew he was that, of course, but he's just too consistently characterized as someone where what you see is mostly what you get. He's got depths, of course, he's not shallow. But all his best moments as an agent, even, seem more about him being himself rather than being able to put himself in a different mindset. The Nina story especially seems to bring that out. I always remember the scenes, for instance, where he's completely out of  his depth about her reaction to the French Lieutenant's Woman, which he took her to because Sandra liked it. And Nina at some point mentions Anna Karenina and Stan says he's never read it. I think he ever says in such a way where he's trying to be smooth, like as if he hasn't had the honor to read it, but it just seemed like another example of Stan just not being able or not seeing a reason to step outside his own personality. You never hear him say anything about Russia at all in terms of studying it or being interested in it. Early on we see him struggling with the language on a really basic level (like even the alphabet). The most he ever speaks it with Nina is when he's inviting her into their new little love nest, but even then it's like he himself sees it as a goofy little trick he's doing as a nod to her exoticism. You figure there ought to have been a reason for them putting him in language classes at that intense a level but it clearly never took. It probably helped Philip's case a lot that right until the end he seemed like an American guy.

Even with Henry a lot of their interaction was about every day experiences they shared as middle class American boys/young men.

And then, of course, his relationship with Renee in particular doesn't make him seem like the kind of guy who's paranoid about other people not being who they seem to be as I'd think he would be if he was that type of person.

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

In this thread Stan is called a patriot. Thinking all he did during six seasons, would it better call him "a maverick"? 

Definitely. The original title I always assumed came from his decision to not hand over Echo, but maverick fits him better.

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

 

Yes, Stan held together to me as a character, but I never thought of him as an undercover agent of that kind. I knew he was that, of course, but he's just too consistently characterized as someone where what you see is mostly what you get. He's got depths, of course, he's not shallow. But all his best moments as an agent, even, seem more about him being himself rather than being able to put himself in a different mindset. The Nina story especially seems to bring that out. I always remember the scenes, for instance, where he's completely out of  his depth about her reaction to the French Lieutenant's Woman, which he took her to because Sandra liked it. 

Yes, when Nina said that the heroine of French Lieutenant's Woman was such a woman that men want a woman to be (albeit not the women they marry but a woman they don't marry but find sexy because she has "committed a sin" by having a lover - these kind of men sex is something dangerous, enjoyable best outside the marriage bed) she was most honest and anybody but Stan would have asked: is Nina doing just that with me?

@Umbelina made a good interpreration about Stan's motives but it only tells that Stan was unprofessional and therefore stupid. It was he whose job was to push Nina's buttons to get her do what was needed, not to give Nina a possibility to manipulate him by letting her to fulfill his sexual and emotional needs - and that after he knew that Nina had seduced his boss in order to spy on him.  

You simply can't have "a honest relationship" with an agent whom you run, whom you have forced to coopearate by blackmailing her and whose life and safety depends wholly on you. 

[Umbelina]

It kind of bothered me that they used that particular film for the showdown with Nina and Stan.

The novel was much more complicated than that, and many think it's a very feminist novel, and shows the problems women have since everything in the novel is interpreted by men, told by men, judged by men.

One of the endings proved that Sarah was still a virgin, in other words, it was gossip that "ruined" her, not her own actions.  She, however, did encourage that gossip because she hated the constrictions placed on her by society, and that gossip gave her a certain kind of freedom that other women could not have.  She preferred outcast to sitting in parlors and sewing and never speaking her mind.   She loved to walk the cliffs and be in nature, again, against societal norms to walk so much, and walk alone.  She seemed to encourage the false gossip about herself with the male lead, she was in control of all she could control in that world.  She's actually, to me, quite the heroine in important ways.

The movie treats the three ending issue by having the same actors play modern roles, actors on location.  I thought that was very clever.

Basically, what I'm saying her is Nina's reaction made little sense to me, it would make sense that men wrote those scenes though, because just as in the (amazing) novel, and if you'd read the novel the (thought provoking at the very least) movie, Sarah was no victim, no whore, but instead, a fascinating woman who made her own choices in spite of gossip, and refused to stay in boxes men and societal "norms" required.   Looking at it as a love story is kind of bizarre to me.  Sarah was in charge, not a true victim, and the lead male was dancing her tune, not the opposite.

Maybe that was the point, since Stan was dancing Nina's tune as well?  Either way, as written, it didn't work well for me, but perhaps it's because I love Fowles and have my own opinions on both movie and book?

Oh, and Anna Karenina was my least favorite of Tolstoy's amazing books, it just all felt so melodramatic and sordid, although I did enjoy the Russian life of it all, that "love story" didn't grab me, I wanted to smash both of their heads together a few times.  It may be time to try it again though.

Edited January 2, 2019 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

@Umbelina made a good interpreration about Stan's motives but it only tells that Stan was unprofessional and therefore stupid. It was he whose job was to push Nina's buttons to get her do what was needed, not to give Nina a possibility to manipulate him by letting her to fulfill his sexual and emotional needs - and that after he knew that Nina had seduced his boss in order to spy on him.  

 

The whole story, to me, seems like it establishes Stan as exactly how Nina describes the FBI--cops at heart, not spies. Because Stan makes sense as someone who looks at the world as a guy looking for justice and who has a soft spot for protecting others and seeing good where he wants to see it. Practically his entire run in counterintelligence shows him just not being the kind of person suited to the kind of emotional manipulation involved in spying. Some of his greatest victories come when he just has an instinct that something hinky's going on, often because somebody's done some little thing that steps outside the norm. 

This is just the most obvious example. It's just such a blatant thing to look to this woman of all people to provide him with emotional comfort. Plus, of course, in the next ep he shows up at Philip's door to talk about his emotions. Later he'll be just thrilled at how perfect Renee is and become all about her etc. 

Aderholdt seems to thrive or at least be perfectly happy in counterintel, but Stan has had enough after only a few years. He doesn't even have time to burn out. It's wrong for him almost from the start.

It's funny, in a way, that he talks to Henry about not being able to trust anyone and it's true to an extent--he can't share details of his job etc. But he's actually a pretty trusting person where he can be.

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Basically, what I'm saying her is Nina's reaction made little sense to me, it would make sense that men wrote those scenes though, because just as in the (amazing) novel, and if you'd read the novel the (thought provoking at the very least) movie, Sarah was no victim, no whore, but instead, a fascinating woman who made her own choices in spite of gossip, and refused to stay in boxes men and societal "norms" required. 

FWIW, I didn't take Nina's reaction as a comment on the movie or story. I figured they simply chose that movie because it was a "women's picture" from the right time for Stan to take her, one that Sandra could very believably have liked etc. But Nina's reaction was all about Nina and her own situation. If she'd seen the same movie herself before she got into this mess she might have felt very differently--plus whatever reaction she has she'd also have to consider in terms of how Stan would react to it. I just remember the first time I saw it thinking that Nina was just annoyed at Stan and having to watch this movie with Stan and her reaction wasn't a true reflection of what she thought of the movie or even her own situation.

Anna Karenina, otoh, would have been something Nina might have read at a young age and just had more positive and romantic associations with, you know?

[Umbelina]

Also, Nina stopped watching the movie early in, while Sarah was still playing a role, she didn't see the end or middle, when it's revealed that Sarah, in many ways, is playing the men, not the reverse.

[CherithCutestory]

On 6/29/2018 at 12:46 PM, Plums said:

The more I rewatch, the more I'm marveling at how well they set up the possibility that Stan would let them go in the end and lie to the FBI about it, and how I never even got near to predicting it. But it makes so much sense for his character.

 

In addition to Nina, it was also pretty much stated outright in Season 5  when he's talking to Mrs. Gaad. Revenge isn't enough of a reason. He cares about the bigger picture. As he knows, it matters a lot who is the leader of the Soviet Union. A different kind of leader could very easily have responded to their weakened internal position by lashing out rather than making peace. He couldn't release Oleg. There is no way he could get that message. He had to let them go. 

It wasn't just about his relationship with Philip. The world was more important. Stan tasted personal vengeance over more important concerns with Vlad and he didn't like it. Yes, he is too stunned by Philip to act rationally. But I think if that wasn't weighing on the back of his mind his irrational act would have been to kill them rather than let them loose. (Or, at least, tried to.)

Quote

 

I hadn’t thought about it, but yes, I can see Stan really hating that Martha couldn’t give up Clark, but Stan could give up Nina. He had been in her shoes. It was close. He almost was Martha. He probably did hate that he came so close too.

 

But, unlike Martha, he didn't. And I don't think he ever really would have.  I don't think he'll have much sympathy for her. Martha continued to work for Clark/Philip after he murdered Gene in cold blood for her. There is no forgiving that kind of person.  (I don't see him ever forgiving Philip either, of course. Elizabeth isn't even worth mentioning as a possibility.) 

Honestly, the whole Nina thing just showed that they should leave these sorts of plans to people like Philip and Elizabeth. Both of whom would have known after a day that there was a million ways to milk useful information from this dope but trying to get him to betray his country was a no-go. 

The guy was never going to leave his wife for Nina. If he wouldn't leave his wife he wouldn't betray his country. 

The French Lieutenant's Woman is one of my favorite books. Never bothered with the movie. But everyone on this show is constantly projecting their own shit on everything else. So, it really didn't matter what was going on. Just what Nina saw. I'm sure she could have made Tron about her inner turmoil. In the world of this show, projection is a genetic Fictional Russian trait. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎2‎.‎1‎.‎2019 at 9:59 PM, Umbelina said:

Oh, and Anna Karenina was my least favorite of Tolstoy's amazing books, it just all felt so melodramatic and sordid, although I did enjoy the Russian life of it all, that "love story" didn't grab me, I wanted to smash both of their heads together a few times.  It may be time to try it again though.

Although the title is Anna Karenina, there are actually three couples in the book. There is Anna's philandeering brother and his wife who concentrates on her children, the Levin and Kitty who is at first in love with Vronsky but finally sees the light and then Anna and Vronsky's adulterous love. Notice that Anna could have had an affair but when she left her husband who didn't give her divorce, that made her a pariah in the eyes of the society. And when Vronsky's love cooled, as a woman she had nothing left whereas Levin, as a man, although unhappily in love with Kitty, concentrated on his estate.

As for Nina, the civilicized Soviet person was supposed to have know the Russian classical literature and it was widely taught in the school.    

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

In addition to Nina, it was also pretty much stated outright in Season 5  when he's talking to Mrs. Gaad. Revenge isn't enough of a reason. He cares about the bigger picture. As he knows, it matters a lot who is the leader of the Soviet Union. A different kind of leader could very easily have responded to their weakened internal position by lashing out rather than making peace. He couldn't release Oleg. There is no way he could get that message. He had to let them go. 

It wasn't just about his relationship with Philip. The world was more important. Stan tasted personal vengeance over more important concerns with Vlad and he didn't like it. Yes, he is too stunned by Philip to act rationally. But I think if that wasn't weighing on the back of his mind his irrational act would have been to kill them rather than let them loose. (Or, at least, tried to.)

I agree about the bigger picture as Stan's motive, although Philip knew also how best to manipulate him.

In addition, the circumstances where he made his decision were important. He could only have prevented them from leaving by shooting them (or perhaps the best option would have been to threaten to shoot Paige). Evidently Philip, that mastermind of reading people as Martha's case so well showed, was fairly sure that Stan couldn't do it.

But it wasn't only the circumstances: even if Stan couldn't shoot them, he could have informed on them straightaway (of course without telling that he had met them) - but he kept silence and thus let them escape.

[sistermagpie]

14 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

Honestly, the whole Nina thing just showed that they should leave these sorts of plans to people like Philip and Elizabeth. Both of whom would have known after a day that there was a million ways to milk useful information from this dope but trying to get him to betray his country was a no-go. 

This sums it up so well. It was practically like Gaad. They had a great situation that Nina could have finessed in all sorts of ways. She was already doing it. She's the one who got the info about the trap for the Illegals. And then they blew it by trying to force something more risky and unlikely.

Martha did agree to betray everyone for love, but even with her Philip played it more subtly. He went step by step and allowed Martha to continue to deny what was happening if she wanted to. It was only at the very end where she asked who he worked for, knowing already that it was probably the KGB. And he didn't just ask her to plant the pen right away, he proposed to her first etc., always making the choice into something Martha could rationalize to herself. Stan, of course, would never rationalize as much as Martha could, but he could do it a little, as when he gave Oleg the surveillance reports. He could have been unwittingly helpful in plenty of ways.

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

But it wasn't only the circumstances: even if Stan couldn't shoot them, he could have informed on them straightaway (of course without telling that he had met them) - but he kept silence and thus let them escape.

Seems like he might have also had the power to insist on sending a group to watch Paige's apartment and so take matters out of his own hands. They would have been captured and the FBI could share their info with the CIA or whatever and get the message to Gorbachev.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Seems like he might have also had the power to insist on sending a group to watch Paige's apartment and so take matters out of his own hands. They would have been captured and the FBI could share their info with the CIA or whatever and get the message to Gorbachev.

Yes, when Stan decided to meet P&E alone (he played straight to Philip's hands just as Martha did when he gave Clark a possibility to explain). Either he didn't realize his own weakness or his pain because of especially Philip's betrayal was too great and he wanted to express it informally.     

[Umbelina]

On 1/12/2019 at 9:02 PM, CherithCutestory said:

In addition to Nina, it was also pretty much stated outright in Season 5  when he's talking to Mrs. Gaad. Revenge isn't enough of a reason. He cares about the bigger picture. As he knows, it matters a lot who is the leader of the Soviet Union. A different kind of leader could very easily have responded to their weakened internal position by lashing out rather than making peace. He couldn't release Oleg. There is no way he could get that message. He had to let them go. 

The president of the USA was negotiating with Gorbachev.  Gorbachev was giving him what he wanted.  This information would have gone to Reagan, and HE would have told Gorby.  Lemme see, that's just ONE way it could have happened.  Next way?  Let Philip send the message before taking him in. 

There are probably a half dozen more ways this could have happened, the message gone through, that didn't involve Stan committing treason and lying to his coworkers.

On 1/13/2019 at 11:29 AM, sistermagpie said:

Seems like he might have also had the power to insist on sending a group to watch Paige's apartment and so take matters out of his own hands. They would have been captured and the FBI could share their info with the CIA or whatever and get the message to Gorbachev.

There is another one. 

Oleg could tell Stan the message because he hadn't decoded it yet.  Philip is the one who GAVE it to him.  All Philip had to do was tell it to Stan, or his interrogators in the FBI, who would, with alarming quickness, given the START negotiations?  Pass it up the line to Gorby.

There is no reason Philip or Elizabeth had to be there in person.

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

There is no reason Philip or Elizabeth had to be there in person.

Yeah, I honestly never thought Stan let them go because he thought that was the only way to protect Gorbachev. I thought the whole thing was about the personal feelings and Philip's personal fears for his country, which mirror what Oleg said, was just part of that. It was something Stan could identify with without thinking this is the only way he can save the summit.

[sistermagpie]

My obsession continues, and I found myself thinking today about the whole question of Paige lying etc., and I was thinking how when it comes to specifically lying about the garage scene happening, at least, she has the advantage that it was a specific thing (she just has to pretend she and her parents walked straight through the garage to the car and keep everything else the same as the truth) and that it wouldn't necessarily be something the FBI was focused on since they don't know there's anything there. They might be concentrating on other points of their escape.

But then I was thinking about ways it could come up through questioning anyway and I started thinking about the timeline. Philip and Elizabeth don't have to press a buzzer to get into Paige's building, which would suggest some security like a guy at a desk. That usually means being able to know when people go in and out. (There might be other ways to estimate the time, but that one's pretty obvious.)

Meanwhile, Stan left a stakeout to go over there, and presumably the guy he left would have good reason to know exactly how long he was on his own. Stan, to cover his absence, tells Aderholdt that he "went by Paige's" earlier "just in case" but "no one was there."

So if they were actually trying to recreate the timeline of the flight and were really going over it with a fine toothed comb, and they knew when the Jennings arrived at and left Paige's, Stan might absolutely get a focus. He would already get focus because of this relationship with them. Within the episode Stan's sharing his suspicions with Aderholdt looks great for him and his "going by" Paige's backs that up. But if somebody's really looking at the timeline, Stan leaves his post at whatever time. They'd know how long it would take to get to Paige's. He got there before Philip and Elizabeth. He was there for a while. He's there while they they're inside with Paige, there in the garage. Then they leave and Stan goes back. If they know what time the Jennings arrived/left the building and the time Stan arrived/left, I imagine somebody (somebody a lot like Stan, for instance) might absolutely wonder how Stan's time staking out Paige's totally overlapped with the Jennings with extra time on both sides and yet he missed them.

This is exactly the type of thing a guy like Stan would just feel suspicious about if it was someone else, and that someone like Aderholdt would see by going over the details. And somebody from the CIA, especially, would know that Stan's floating a suspicion  (without running their SS#s) did not mean he wouldn't let them go in the moment. They know how close he was with the family, that he's swooped in to soften the blow for Henry, he'll probably be protective of Paige as well, maybe also have private discussions with her before she comes in etc.

Hell, if Aderholdt was just arriving on the scene now he would probably be suspicious of Stan.

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

My obsession continues, and I found myself thinking today about the whole question of Paige lying etc., and I was thinking how when it comes to specifically lying about the garage scene happening, at least, she has the advantage that it was a specific thing (she just has to pretend she and her parents walked straight through the garage to the car and keep everything else the same as the truth) and that it wouldn't necessarily be something the FBI was focused on since they don't know there's anything there. They might be concentrating on other points of their escape.

But then I was thinking about ways it could come up through questioning anyway and I started thinking about the timeline. Philip and Elizabeth don't have to press a buzzer to get into Paige's building, which would suggest some security like a guy at a desk. That usually means being able to know when people go in and out. (There might be other ways to estimate the time, but that one's pretty obvious.)

Meanwhile, Stan left a stakeout to go over there, and presumably the guy he left would have good reason to know exactly how long he was on his own. Stan, to cover his absence, tells Aderholdt that he "went by Paige's" earlier "just in case" but "no one was there."

So if they were actually trying to recreate the timeline of the flight and were really going over it with a fine toothed comb, and they knew when the Jennings arrived at and left Paige's, Stan might absolutely get a focus. He would already get focus because of this relationship with them. Within the episode Stan's sharing his suspicions with Aderholdt looks great for him and his "going by" Paige's backs that up. But if somebody's really looking at the timeline, Stan leaves his post at whatever time. They'd know how long it would take to get to Paige's. He got there before Philip and Elizabeth. He was there for a while. He's there while they they're inside with Paige, there in the garage. Then they leave and Stan goes back. If they know what time the Jennings arrived/left the building and the time Stan arrived/left, I imagine somebody (somebody a lot like Stan, for instance) might absolutely wonder how Stan's time staking out Paige's totally overlapped with the Jennings with extra time on both sides and yet he missed them.

This is exactly the type of thing a guy like Stan would just feel suspicious about if it was someone else, and that someone like Aderholdt would see by going over the details. And somebody from the CIA, especially, would know that Stan's floating a suspicion  (without running their SS#s) did not mean he wouldn't let them go in the moment. They know how close he was with the family, that he's swooped in to soften the blow for Henry, he'll probably be protective of Paige as well, maybe also have private discussions with her before she comes in etc.

Hell, if Aderholdt was just arriving on the scene now he would probably be suspicious of Stan.

That would be true irl, but these shows have their own logic.

F.ex. Homeland is full of improbalities. The most of them was that Carrie could bring Brody to the Canadian border after the CIA headquarters were bombed - as if there weren't surveillance cameras everywhere! 

I guess that we should believe that by being the first to suspect Jennings, Stan has secured his back - at least if Paige doesn't babble in the interrogations.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I guess that we should believe that by being the first to suspect Jennings, Stan has secured his back - at least if Paige doesn't babble in the interrogations.

Oh, I agree. Going by what the show gave us in the last ep, I assume we're meant to think that the point is that Stan is going to keep his secret and since he's not under suspicion they won't ask Paige too much about what happened between her apartment and the highway, specifically, so that won't be an issue.

But at the same time, it's not outside the logic of this show that Stan would get caught this way, because there is a history of just this sort of thing tripping people up. If Stan himself could be suspicious of Martha and the Jennings just because he had a feeling, and if Gaad and Stan could ask thing like "Who brings a briefcase on a family vacation?" about the Connors, it's not beyond somebody to question Stan's story. It's possible that after the garage scene he made a point of going into the apartment building and trying to call up to Paige (so backing up his claim that he knew "nobody was there,") but even that would mean the doorman would probably have said they just left and it would raise the question of why it took him so long to get there.

And really, it wouldn't even be that outside the theme/feeling of the show for Stan to find himself on the defensive unexpectedly because of his decision. That's the type of thing that happens plenty of times on the show.

[Umbelina]

Oh please.

"Logic of the show?"

It's the FBI.  Paige will confess all, probably in the first 10 minutes of questioning.  Stan is not a complete moron, although he is a traitor.  He will know how fast Paige will break under the mildest questioning.

This is huge, the FBI isn't going to just let it go, this will be a massive investigation, with all of their very best people involved.  It's not going to be in Aderholt's hands.  Think Mr. Taffet (s) on steroids. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Oh please.

"Logic of the show?"

It's the FBI.  Paige will confess all, probably in the first 10 minutes of questioning.  Stan is not a complete moron, although he is a traitor.  He will know how fast Paige will break under the mildest questioning.

This is huge, the FBI isn't going to just let it go, this will be a massive investigation, with all of their very best people involved.  It's not going to be in Aderholt's hands.  Think Mr. Taffet (s) on steroids. 

I was thinking about it wrt an old quote I read from Vince Gilligan. Putting this under a spoiler tag because of the reference to the end of Breaking Bad.
 

Spoiler

They're making a sequel movie to Breaking Bad about Jesse and there was a quote about him speculating after the show where he said that he liked to imagine a happy future for him, but also realistically knew he'd be immediately pursued.

And it reminded me of this because the show BB ends on this note that totally says, "Hurray! Jesse is FREE!" but that doesn't mean that even the show itself wouldn't have continued the story the going getting out of the fire and into a frying pan, as it were. There's hope, but there's trouble. His ending at the end of BB is freedom, but that doesn't mean his own story would be defined by that moment alone.

It seems like most of the characters on this show would have a similar situation. It's not like the end of S5 here they end on a note that's just going to be louder at the start of S6. They're all ending in a moment of calm that can easily become hugely complicated very quickly.  The characters' own actions and situations have made them all agents of chaos in their own lives at this point. They all just became different people.

[Umbelina]

Of course he will be pursued.

BB spoilerish

Spoiler

The serious differences are:  Jesse has skills, he's a criminal with skills,and there IS a chance he will make it somewhere, turn things around for himself.  He may not, but he MAY.

Paige has NO skills, zip, none.  She didn't run either, she went right back, and the entire FBI is after any and all information about the illegals.  Information which Paige has.  She's useless and hopeless.

BB again:

Spoiler

They wanted the kingpin more than Jesse, and sure they will go after him, but Walter White's dead body is in their hands, and they have no idea whatsoever that Jesse was even there.  The sheer manpower exerted for a presumed dead or long gone Jesse is minimal compared to Paige, who will be in FBI hands momentarily. 

[sistermagpie]

22 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Paige has NO skills, zip, none.  She didn't run either, she went right back, and the entire FBI is after any and all information about the illegals.  Information which Paige has.  She's useless and hopeless.

Agreed--there's no reason to think she's prepared to cover up anything at all psychologically, mentally (in terms of her having some wildly elaborate cover story that spanned years) or practically (in terms of having a trail of alibis). I was thinking about this one aspect for Stan because I started out thinking that it was possible the FBI didn't have any reason to suspect the Jennings met Stan on their way out, so she wouldn't have to lie about it. But then I realized that they actually might have good reason to question Stan's story. Especially an outside spy agency like the CIA.

And if they go to Paige with questions about that they could probably get it from her. Especially since they probably wouldn't immediately let her know what they were fishing for. Just as Philip and Elizabeth didn't think they had reason to hide their visit to Paige's apartment since they thought they were on their way out, Stan thought Paige was long gone with her parents so wouldn't be a possible problem.

One more quick word about BB just to clarify:

Spoiler

In the interview VG was noting that Jesse's fingerprints were all over the lab so that's why he figured he'd be tied to it.

It wouldn't contradict the ending we saw for Stan either, any more than the BB thoughts do. It would just take the secret he's left with at the end and make it an external threat rather than just an internal burden, which is a type of story the show did all the time.

[Umbelina]

True about Stan thinking Paige was gone, and so, so far, remaining the traitor he is, covering up.  He will learn soon enough that Paige isn't gone, and he will have to confess everything, but I doubt he will be able to do that before Paige spills, and he's arrested.

The CIA can't investigate Americans on American soil, so this will be FBI, and possibly military intelligence will be involved as well, since they lost men to Elizabeth.  Congress, and the POTUS would be involved as well.  I don't know who, beyond the DoJ would investigate the FBI back then, but certainly, all of them will be under some kind of suspicion, not just Stan, they socialized with the Jennings after all.

Stan's done though.

As for Jesse? 

Spoiler

I still think his chances, though slim, are fair more hopeful than Paige, or Stan's. 

[sistermagpie]

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The CIA can't investigate Americans on American soil, so this will be FBI, and possibly military intelligence will be involved as well, since they lost men to Elizabeth.  Congress, and the POTUS would be involved as well.  I don't know who, beyond the DoJ would investigate the FBI back then, but certainly, all of them will be under some kind of suspicion, not just Stan, they socialized with the Jennings after all. 

True. I wasn't so much thinking of the CIA investigating as just somebody somewhere in the CIA having an opinion on how spies can work on people. Iow, knowing the kind of affect a spy friend might have on Stan. But somebody wouldn't have to be from the CIA to do that--it's pretty obvious. It's not even just a case of wondering if Stan acted out of friendship. Who knows what his best friend could have had on the guy to blackmail him for all they know? He'd have to be looked at closely.

I would hope he would check out Renee and out her as a spy too if she is. He wouldn't need Philip's heads-up to do it. Somebody who just found out his bff was a Russian spy would believably check out his perfect wife he met years after him too.

Agreed about Jesse--it's a very different character and story. Paige's spy experience was unique in that she had access to a lot more info because of her mother and being considered special while also being able to fall short in her performance. Giving he more info for the FBI and less ability or even motivation to hide it.

Ultimately Paige will probably be the child who rejected what Elizabeth stood for most brutally. Henry just had no interest and removed himself with Philip's blessing. Paige was Elizabeth's willing pet project, let in as a favorite, protected and given special attention and she'll betray it all to the FBI. (Not that I hold that against her, but given Elizabeth's own fear of being a traitor it's somehow fitting it's such a defining trait for her daughter and Elizabeth refused to see it.)

[Roseanna]

On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 7:46 PM, Plums said:

The more I rewatch, the more I'm marveling at how well they set up the possibility that Stan would let them go in the end and lie to the FBI about it, and how I never even got near to predicting it. But it makes so much sense for his character.

Yes, it makes sense for Stan's character but only just in that kind situation where he confronted P&E alone (which he of course chose) and Philip was able to manipulate him.

I was waiting for the tragic end which was hinted (in the wedding of the Romeo and Juliet style) or the confrontation between P&E which was the theme of S6.    

On ‎1‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 7:02 AM, CherithCutestory said:

The guy was never going to leave his wife for Nina. If he wouldn't leave his wife he wouldn't betray his country. 

I can't understand that kind of reasoning. Leaving one's spouse (like Sandra did) would be mean acting openly and honestly. Staying with one's spouse one is constantly cheating is living in a lie.

Most of all, being a faithful spouse or a brave soldier is no guarentee that one can't betray one's country. 

 















































 

[Roseanna]

On ‎6‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 8:18 PM, SusanSunflower said:

In real life, many men are blindsided by unhappy wives wanting divorce, but Stan and Emmerich had plenty of warning -- words and actions -- articulated clearly by Sandra that while she was happy to "work on herself" and the marriage, but that things needed to change in the authenticity and intimacy departments.  Stan (but less so Emmerich) might believe that a hot wife and lots of good sex was all that was needed for a "happy marriage", lookiing like happy vacation pictures or a hallmark commercial, but Sandra was clear enough that she wasn't going to settle for that ...  going through the motions, being used like a prop -- "my wife"... "mother of my son" without being seen as Sandra. 

I am not sure if it was that simple. There was a possibility, albeit a tine one, that with Nina gone. Stan and Sandra could have made a new beginning during the vacation where they would have had plenty of time also to speak together.

Of course I understand why Sandra rejected Stan's offer after she had tried several times to get him to talk about the problems of the marriage - indeed so often that it to Stan no doubt sounded nagging.

All in all, it was a quite common development in relationships. If Stan was sincere at all, he was too late, because Sandra has already turned from him to other alternatives.

One point more: we never saw sex between Stan and Sandra, not even before his affair with Nina.  On the other hand, they shared the bedroom.  

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Of course I understand why Sandra rejected Stan's offer after she had tried several times to get him to talk about the problems of the marriage - indeed so often that it to Stan no doubt sounded nagging.

Yeah, I thought it was really interesting the way they set up the problems between them, especially given how it ultimately, imo, reflected Philip and Elizabeth as well. 

In her own way, Sandra was asking for the same thing Philip and Elizabeth did. At the start of the show Sandra starts to realize that she's playing the role of his wife and defining herself as his wife, but she doesn't feel like it's an honest relationship because he's not letting her in. He's keeping her at arms length, wanting to keep the security of having someone there but keeping himself separate. It's the opposite--they had a real marriage but are now strangers, P&E started as strangers but have become a real marriage.

When Stan tries to do something to keep her he keeps doing surface things--I think he does something similar with Matthew at times as well, actually. They both understand that he does love them on some level, but he's not willing to make himself open enough to get them back.

This is why I really feel like he ends the series not only never having gotten over this, but almost getting trapped by it again wrt Renee. He marries somebody who seems to also be playing the role of loving wife without ever demanding anything really scary. She's more interested in getting a job at the FBI than really bonding with Stan. 

Stan tells Henry he can't trust anyone and I think many see this as some sign that those two are really bonded, but I think the scene's more important in that of course Stan feels more comfortable saying that to a kid who doesn't need his trust because he's not his son and also that Henry will later realize that Stan could have been speaking for Henry's own father who couldn't trust him. 

So it's understandable that when Philip makes this big speech about being isolated etc., Stan's not so cut off from himself that he fails to recognize himself in the speech.

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

On 1/13/2019 at 12:02 AM, CherithCutestory said:

The guy was never going to leave his wife for Nina. If he wouldn't leave his wife he wouldn't betray his country. 

I can't understand that kind of reasoning. Leaving one's spouse (like Sandra did) would be mean acting openly and honestly. Staying with one's spouse one is constantly cheating is living in a lie.

I think they may have meant that Stan didn't want to make that big of a break. He doesn't want to cross the line into actual traitor (in his mind or in a way that would get him officially shunned or whatever) but he's comfortable doing stuff that he likes that might technically be considered bad. He stole surveillance reports for Oleg, but wouldn't hand over Echo and get himself in that deep. He'd be emotionally distant from Sandra and have an affair with Nina, but he wouldn't leave her. 

I think his choices about acting against his country's interests are different from Oleg's or Philip's, for instance, because they're more personal and about individuals instead of thinking he's doing the patriotic thing by doing it.

[Roseanna]

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 9:54 PM, sistermagpie said:

she doesn't feel like it's an honest relationship because he's not letting her in. He's keeping her at arms length, wanting to keep the security of having someone there but keeping himself separate. 

There was an exception: Stan confessed to Sandra that he has killed (although not when and whom) and she said that she has known it.

[Roseanna]

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 9:54 PM, sistermagpie said:

This is why I really feel like he ends the series not only never having gotten over this, but almost getting trapped by it again wrt Renee. He marries somebody who seems to also be playing the role of loving wife without ever demanding anything really scary. She's more interested in getting a job at the FBI than really bonding with Stan. 

It's true Renee didn't talk about her own problems to Stan, but Stan talked to Renee more about his work problems than to Sandra, especially if he should leave counter-intellihence.

[Roseanna]

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 9:54 PM, sistermagpie said:

Stan tells Henry he can't trust anyone and I think many see this as some sign that those two are really bonded, but I think the scene's more important in that of course Stan feels more comfortable saying that to a kid who doesn't need his trust because he's not his son and also that Henry will later realize that Stan could have been speaking for Henry's own father who couldn't trust him. 

I doubt a person can live without trusting at least somebody (if not in words them in practice). A cop must trust his/her partner, otherwise he can't act. And if one doesn't trust one's spouse, why marry at all?

Of course one can be betrayed in work and marriage, but more likely one destroys one's relationship with mistrust.

As for Stan, he did trust Philip nearly to the end, he trusted that his partner hadn't confessed even in torture, he trusted Renee and he trusted almost all the time Nina.  

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I doubt a person can live without trusting at least somebody (if not in words them in practice). A cop must trust his/her partner, otherwise he can't act. And if one doesn't trust one's spouse, why marry at all?

Of course one can be betrayed in work and marriage, but more likely one destroys one's relationship with mistrust.

As for Stan, he did trust Philip nearly to the end, he trusted that his partner hadn't confessed even in torture, he trusted Renee and he trusted almost all the time Nina.  

I do think it's more complicated than just never trusting vs. trusting. I mean, Stan did trust Nina in some ways, but also accused her of covering for whoever killed Amador and continually lied to her about killing Vlad. He showed moments of real trust in Philip when he confessed he was having an affair and told him he was his best friend, but he was quick to accuse him of sleeping with Sandra on the word of his girlfriend. So while he does have moments of trust, I also completely see the truth of what he says to Henry. I don't think he ever trusts anyone as much as Philip and Elizabeth trust each other, for instance. (Granted, that's a very high bar to clear.)

But when I think of Stan being particularly guarded, I'm looking at his relationships in general. I think he really is shown to choose relationships that are safer and don't require him to face his failures over people who show him his true self--that, I think, is the real trust issue with Stan.

For me, Matthew is the character who really nails Stan when he talks about him. He has these throwaway lines that, imo, go straight to the heart of him. He says if he does something wrong he doesn't fix it--and he means emotionally, not practically. That's what I see him doing throughout the show. He can't face the shame or failure he feels with his family, so instead he chooses easier facsimiles. Instead of Sandra who sees him as a "bad guy" he goes with Nina who is herself a "bad guy" and with whom he can try to be heroic. Then he chooses Renee who he's also never failed. Instead of facing Matthew, who comes to stay with him willing to give him a chance, he chooses the neighbor's kid he's never failed. I think this is what makes him such an easy target for spies. He's really vulnerable to people who make him feel the way he wants to feel.

I think that's why in the end it seems like his best relationships are with people he at some point did mistrust or made him feel uncomfortable but worked through it, Philip and Aderholdt.  (His relationships with Oleg is compelling but I don't think it ever feels positive for him.)

Edited May 4, 2019 by sistermagpie