Philip: The Defector, And Then A Question Mark

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Nail=head.  Other than early-onset Alzheimer's, it's the only explanation that makes sense.  At one point Phillip was firmly against any recruitment of his daughter.  Not only is she completely ill-suited for such a life,  which Gabe saw within minutes, but what kind of parent wants their child to commit treason and murder people for a living?  Yet Phillip seems to have forgotten his objections and looked shocked at Gabe's parting advice. 

I don't think he's shocked at the idea. Of course he doesn't want Paige to have this job. He's not trying to recruit her (though he knows she might volunteer), he's just trying to get her to live with the secret. He's lived in a burning house to not have a skewed perspective there. I think he was simply shocked at Gabriel now telling him that he was right after pushing it along all this time. It proved what Philip said, that Gabriel put the job first. (I also disagree with this idea that Gabriel's line at the end had to do with him somehow being able to tell within minutes that Paige was unsuited--it's got nothing to do with whether or not she's personally suited, imo. He's just an old man who, thanks to Philip's steadfast defiance on this issue and pointed questions, has admitted that it's not something he wants for the closest thing he has to a granddaughter.) I think Philip's trying to protect the whole family the way he always has, and that has never included leaving Elizabeth.

The thing is, this isn't just an Elizabeth thing. It's the way Philip always is. This is why Martha is still alive, Pastor Tim's still alive, why Jim hasn't slept with Kimmie and why Robert died in a hospital, why he's influenced by talk of protecting people back home.

Edited May 2, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

I still think Gabriel was talking in generalities, not specifically about Paige herself.

NO ONE should want their child, or anyone they care about to live the kind of life Gabriel or Philip or Elizabeth live.

He's an old man, looking back on his life, and it completely sucks.  He did it all to stay alive, it's all bullshit, and horrifying, sickening bullshit.  Why would anyone want a child to be involved with this in any way if they have a choice or other options?

Gabe had no choice, Philip and Elizabeth barely had other options or choice.  Paige does.

[sistermagpie]

Quote

As far as Philip's town?  Probably had to send men, and was possibly short on whatever supplies Moscow would sporadically send, but he was far too north and east to be touched.  Although some of those prisoners could have been soldiers who were captured or surrendered during the war.

Yeah, it seems like they intentionally linked Philip more to the Gulag and therefore the Purge and basically Russian vs. Russian while Elizabeth is in Smolensk and all about us vs. them.

This comment's just as much about Oleg as Philip--it occurred to me they're kind of similar. They both had stories in S5 where they discovered themselves linked to the camps, Oleg's mother as a prisoner and Philip's father as a guard. Both of them were also starting to look more at how the USSR had internal problems rather than just being besieged by enemies.

Also, they're both brothers who lost their sibling. Oleg lost his younger brother in Afghanistan, Philip is a younger brother who doesn't seem to have any contact with his brother. I don't know if that means anything, but I hope there is something there.

Edited March 13, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

24 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, it seems like they intentionally linked Philip more to the Gulag and therefore the Purge and basically Russian vs. Russian while Elizabeth is in Smolensk and all about us vs. them.

This comment's just as much about Oleg as Philip--it occurred to me they're kind of similar. They both had stories in S5 where they discovered themselves linked to the camps, Oleg's mother as a prisoner and Philip's father as a guard. Both of them were also starting to look more at how the USSR had internal problems rather than just being besieged by enemies.

Also, they're both brothers who lost their sibling. Oleg lost his younger brother in Afghanistan, Philip is a younger brother who doesn't seem to have any contact with his brother. I don't know if that means anything, but I hope there is something there.

 

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/russia-notorious-siberian-prison-tsar-nicholas-ii-dostoyevsky-stalins-victims-becomes-1539334

Quote

The Great Purge of 1937-38 saw thousands of enemies of the state summarily executed. Some 2,500 political prisoners were shot against a wall at Tobolsk prison castle and buried in a mass grave.

Fairly famous gulag Phil's daddy worked in, and also, some photos of it here.  Oleg's very lucky his mom wasn't sent to this one.

Some of the rooms have obviously been painted or cleaned up, but not all.  Oh!  You can stay there if you want as well, it's now a hostel. 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Fairly famous gulag Phil's daddy worked in, and also, some photos of it here.  Oleg's very lucky his mom wasn't sent to this one.

Some of the rooms have obviously been painted or cleaned up, but not all.  Oh!  You can stay there if you want as well, it's now a hostel. 

Holy shit! I'd never seen specific things about that prison before. Wait, so is it actually part of that beautiful Kremlin there? If so, wow. Fairy tale on the outside, dungeon on the inside.

I'm going to be really annoyed if they never explain Philip's backstory. We've got this collection of facts that won't lay flat no matter how often I iron them in my head. 

[sistermagpie]

Quote

I've read and watched *youtube, etc. accounts of the children in those Gulags, most are of them were children of prisoners, but one or two of guards or NKVD.  They were well aware of what happened there.  There is no way Philip would be completely oblivious to the starvation, screams, devastation, and horror of his "town."  He would see terrible things, and while perhaps too young to completely process them?  On some level, he already knew, but then again, how would he know that "life" wasn't normal, it was all he did know.  Now though?  He is finally knowing, EST, and Gabe telling him (confirming what he may on some level have expected?) that he was raised in a Gulag.

This is something I have wondered about so much. Specifically, for instance, about being raised in the Gulag, even as the son of a guard. Remembering his father bringing stuff home is a very specific memory that he clearly knew was a pattern at that time, so yes, I think he totally does have repressed memories. It's not like he had some explanation in mind about why a logger would do those things. There's also even that pause in the scene where he says "When he got home he was...tired." Now that we know he was mistaken about what he was saying about his father there, was there something more in that? Was Elizabeth correct that the kids who beat him up were connected to it? 

Then there's his father dying when he was 6. What happened there? It's important enough that he's mentioned it. Did their lives change after that? Wouldn't it be a huge blow to lose the salary of a prison guard? When he brings up the idea of a prison camp to Elizabeth he talks as if he's like her, as if this is something he just knew existed as opposed to something he lived alongside whether or not he remembered his father was a guard. He also talks about food being scarce when his father was *alive* with a salary and bringing home rations. Wouldn't it get worse? Did he wind up a prisoner himself for being too nice to prisoners? (Did he start out as a prisoner?) Did he die because of the same kind of crisis of conscience Philip had? Philip suggests his mother didn't approve of his father's job, but as I understand it the guards (and probably others) had it drilled into them that these prisoners were monsters. (I think I also read that the guards were taken together to see movies, which is where Philip says his parents met.) Did his mother actually tell him his father was a logger? He had an older brother--what did he say? 

I mean, they obviously built this into him from the beginning. They put Elizabeth in a city that perfectly symbolizes the conflict from without. They put Philip in the symbol of the place where the enemy was within. And then they had him somehow not know about it. They had Gabriel haunted by the Purge (as opposed to Claudia's noble memories of Stalingrad). They had Oleg face his mother being in a camp and yes, associating the KGB with it. 

I agree, I think EST should absolutely be connected to lost memories. He may have originally thought he was drawn to it for the self-awareness, wanting to know why he does things. But he's talked about recovering parts of himself--I believe Sandra in an early season said she was doing "soul retrieval" by drawing. For both of them it's mostly been about them thinking about themselves outside their roles and jobs. But with Philip it's hard to believe they're not intentionally giving him repressed memories when not only are his flashbacks different from Elizabeth's but last season he literally figured out through sudden intrusive flashbacks that what he believed about his father was not true. Did his mother start lying to him young to make him forget? How was that possible that no one else ever said anything to him when he lived in the same place? It's not like forgetting your early life in Switzerland after growing up in New Jersey.

Seems like if you're going to give someone that horrific an origin story you can't just leave it at remembering his father bringing things home, even bloody things. Especially when you continued to live in the same place. 

Edited March 27, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

On 3/13/2018 at 12:14 PM, sistermagpie said:

Holy shit! I'd never seen specific things about that prison before. Wait, so is it actually part of that beautiful Kremlin there? If so, wow. Fairy tale on the outside, dungeon on the inside.

I'm going to be really annoyed if they never explain Philip's backstory. We've got this collection of facts that won't lay flat no matter how often I iron them in my head. 

I just read yesterday that Putin is "cleaning up" that museum to remove negative stuff about Stalin among other things.

To your last post?

No one spoke freely in the USSR, and certainly not in a Gulag, anyone could turn them in if they did, and often did, even if it was only for a one time piece of meat in their meal, or an extra ration of bread that day.  Since anyone could be accused for any reason at all of something that would throw them into a Gulag, no matter how high or low in society they were, or what their job was?  Of course Philip's mother would lie to him, better that than a child accidentally blurting something out. 

EST is finally making more sense to me than just an 80's  throw in. 

I think Philip "knows" a lot about where he was, but as a child, it was his only reality, so how would he know other places in the world were different, or even that his place/city/house/situation was filled with horrors unknown to many?  Now, as an adult, I think EST is helping him cope with/remember with eyes that have seen other realities, and as a man does know that the place he grew up in was not, in any way, "normal."  However, the horrors of it all, which are probably suppressed, and may be trying to come out and be reconciled?  Are probably why EST feels valuable to him.  Imagine what would happen if he had a breakthrough and all the memories flooded back, or specific memories of witnessing things there? 

After all, even after his dad died, where would his mother go?  How would she go?  Just how long was he there, until the KGB snapped him up to train?  One other interesting fact that I didn't realize, but now do? Even after prisoners, if they were among the lucky few that survived, were released?  They had no means or chance of leaving that area, so many just stayed on, no longer locked up physically, but completely stuck.

I don't know how Philip's mother would have survived without remarrying, or something worse.  That may be another thing Philip faces, much as Oleg faced his own mother's imprisonment.  (Although, I just have to say this, I think she was either EXTREMELY lucky, or she sugar-coated it for Oleg.)

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

After all, even after his dad died, where would his mother go?  How would she go?  Just how long was he there, until the KGB snapped him up to train?  One other interesting fact that I didn't realize, but now do? Even after prisoners, if they were among the lucky few that survived, were released?  They had no means or chance of leaving that area, so many just stayed on, no longer locked up physically, but completely stuck.

I just came across another article and I thought of Philip talking to Gabriel and asking if they "came for him" because of his father. I thought of it because in the article it was saying that in a lot of places guards were really very low. Like just local uneducated peasants a lot of the time, barely knowing what they were doing and why. But they'd also be constantly told that the prisoners were terrible etc. For those people a job as a guard could be a real step up, unlike for some other people stuck there.

It all just made me wonder exactly what their situation was, especially after his father died. If they lived in housing for guards, wouldn't they have moved? Could the mother have gotten a job there too?

It feels like the writers must have wanted him there representing that life, and maybe it's just impossible a child prisoner would become an Illegal. They also decided to have his father die early so that Philip wouldn't grow up understanding everything. But yeah, what happened afterwards? Elizabeth's mother was a party secretary and cleaned houses on the side. We know Philip worked growing up--where did Mom work? Was that a crutch in the hallway? Did Philip ever get tapes? The whole thing's one big mystery!

[sistermagpie]

So conversations about S5 made me wonder again about Philip's backstory. It's set up in that season as a mystery. Philip starts having these intrusive flashbacks. The resolution is Gabriel confirming that rather than a logger, Philip's father was a guard in the prison camp. Philip originally puts this together because he remembers his father bringing things home. He also mentions men glaring angrily at him and his brother. Elizabeth asks if this is connected to the kids that bullied him and he doesn't know. Philip also seems to imply to Tuan that before his father died they really struggled for food.

On one hand, presumably the years during and just after the war might have been the worst for food. But still, it seems weird for Philip to act as if the time when his father was alive was the worst since he had a father with a job. Surely the loss of him and the job should have been a blow? We have no idea what happened to them after that.

But more than that I was wondering about this detail about men glaring at him and his brother. He connects this to his father being a guard but are we supposed to assume that's true? Maybe I'm wrong but it seems weird to me. It seems based on this idea that everyone knows the camps are terrible and therefore anyone who would be a guard there is betraying his neighbors and so is shunned. Philip even says maybe his mother didn't approve of his job and that's why she never talked about it.

But in that time and place is that really true? Wasn't it drilled into people that the people in prison camps deserved to be in prison camps? I mean, even if you knew otherwise would you really be so in your face about it that you're glaring openly at the children of guards? Glaring at them, in fact, maybe even years later? Were the other people in the town really all nobly refusing to work at the prison even if they were starving? Did they know and personally hate all the guards?

Is it possible this is bullshit? That Gabriel...I don't know, I don't know why he would lie and I can't remember what Philip said in the lead up that would let him know that this story would work, but maybe when he said he left because he "didn't want to lie to them anymore" he secretly wasn't just referring to Mischa? (After all, he didn't actually lie to Philip about that, he just kept it a secret.) But I don't quite get what the lie would be. If his father was a prisoner instead of a guard (and from what I understand it wasn't unusual to go from one to the other and back again) that might suggest the kids were glared at as enemies of the state instead of children of a guard. But then it's hard to see how Philip wouldn't know that. Could he have done something as a guard that was bad and led to his death and/or glaring or something? 

I can't come up with anything that particularly makes sense. I just can't relax with the idea that we were given the solution being that his father was a guard, despite the fact that it seems like that would explain the stuff he brought home. Philip himself connects the men angry at him as a child with his father being a guard so it makes sense to him. Maybe that means I should accept the logic of that. But it's hard to do. Especially since you'd think if this made his father so hated he'd have other memories of people saying things to him that related to it. It seems like it almost makes more sense for people to glare at them because they were prisoners and so deserving of punishment. But would it be possible for Philip to not know that? I think that would even be reflected on a passport--although maybe that changed when Stalin died? I don't know...

[Umbelina]

@sistermagpie

From the research I've done, and it's quite a bit, but it certainly didn't cover EVERY single camp, there were thousands of them, and there could be many differences?

The guards ate well, as a matter of fact, rationing didn't apply to them, there are several scenes of guards and families talking about how very well they ate, even during the war. 

For the most part, they still show very little guilt about their time spent as guards, on the contrary, they are either quite proud of it, OR they say they thought they were serving their country and those convicts were after all, either political enemies or criminals, they had no, if any compassion for them.

I've listened to hours of interviews, and watched several documentaries, as well as read several detailed articles and memoirs.  Now,  I didn't see any direct interviews with the execution squad members, only the guy who drove the bus, and I've seen the mass graves excavated, and there were several witnesses to hearing the gunshots, or seeing the belongings of those shot immediately divvied out.  Many were shot on arrival, never actually worked as slaves in the mines, forests, or on the canal.

So, no, his dad's story doesn't make much sense to me.  I suppose it could have been a camp that wasn't supplied well.  The prisoners were starved no matter what the guards ate though, even in camps where the guards feasted nightly, and dances were held for them and their families, entertainment provided, etc?  Prisoners were still starved, raped, robbed, and treated with contempt. 

Now, if he were a former prisoner/SNITCH?  He would probably have been hated on both sides, but that could be his situation, especially if he were a valuable snitch.  He could have been promised a reward of a house for him and his family (shoddy as it was, it was better than a dorm full of prisoners, and being separated from them.) 

My only fan wank here is that.  He WAS a prisoner, got a reduced sentence for being a VERY valuable snitch (people snitched for an extra piece or bread, or even for a warm hat, or a small piece of meat, they were skin and bones and beyond desperate, much like the Concentration Camps Germany ran.)  So his snitch would have had to be HUGE, and about some important people.

There were attempted break outs, and a few camps even revolted, one held the prison for over a month, until the USSR sent in tanks.  So, perhaps he snitched on some important "political" prisoners (the intelligentsia, doctors, philosophers, former leaders, etc.) who were planning a mass escape or takeover? 

For that, if he played his cards right, he might be released and given low level guard duties without the regular perks.

This was Philip's Gulag, but many other things come up if you google Tobolsk Gulag:  https://sputniknews.com/blogs/201608061043860052-long-way-home-tobolsk/ 

This was one of the best I watched, but there are many.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Umbelina

[Umbelina]

 

Philip's home town. 

I can't imagine that they place that had been a famous prison even during the Czar years, would be under-supplied, while other Gulag officers bragged of their abundance.

[Erin9]

I thought Kimmie made an interesting point when she said Philip has been stuck. (I believe Philip says he is working on it- which is true. Though I can’t recall for sure.) Setting aside the recent financial issues, which would bring anyone down, I gather he’s been that way for awhile anyway - realistically since he came to doubt the value of what he was doing.

Being a full time travel agent didn’t fix things. There are the obvious marriage consequences and having to see Paige become a spy, that have been a drag. But, setting that aside-biggies I know-being a travel agent wasn’t going to reinvigorate him fully. It was better than spying for what he felt was no good end, but not truly purposeful. Philip’s whole life was dedicated to the idea of a better world, making a difference. He wasn’t as loud about it as Elizabeth, but he felt that way. He wanted to help his homeland. 

Much as Philip doesn’t want to report on Elizabeth’s activities, he must like feeling like he’s doing something that matters again, that maybe his spy skills can be used for good. 

I wonder if that’s behind some of his recent assertiveness and directness with Elizabeth and Paige. I get the impression this is the first time he’s really weighed in on Elizabeth’s burnout and their spy activities in a long time. I think he’d stayed out of the spy stuff mostly- or at least voicing much of an opinion on it. He may have just been a friendly ear for Paige. There didn’t seem to be anything unusual about him and Paige chatting a bit about the failed mission. There’s a big difference between that though and the criticism he’s started increasingly leveling at both since the first episode this season. 

He was very direct with Paige about the General’s death and how he felt about every conversation between mother and daughter coming back to spying. He was direct in his criticism that Elizabeth had put Paige’s life in danger. Direct about Elizabeth needing to talk to Paige. But- now he sees an alternative. A way to really make a difference. That seems to be giving him more of a voice and getting him out of the rut he’s been in. 

I should add- that I do not believe that means he’s been a non presence in Paige’s life, just not a very active participant in the spy area. He indicated that they’d agreed he’d stay out of it, being critical of the spy training is what I think he meant, but he’s clearly done with that. Philip loves his daughter. There’s no way he ever removes himself from her the way Elizabeth so clearly has from Henry. It’s not who he is. Henry was never her first concern, but her total lack of interest now is noticeable. 

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Much as Philip doesn’t want to report on Elizabeth’s activities, he must like feeling like he’s doing something that matters again, that maybe his spy skills can be used for good. 

I've wondered that too. Last season I kept feeling like Philip had been knocked back on his heels and I kept waiting for something to happen so that he found his feet again. But it never came. Retirement wasn't it either. I think it's exactly as you said. It gave him a respite from feeling like shit all the time, but at heart he actually is like Elizabeth in wanting to help and make a difference. Through the years the Centre's always been able to motivate him by suggesting people need him--Elizabeth specifically said she *didn't* need him when she told him to quit. Now he's been sought out specifically for something he can get behind. Arkady wasn't kidding when he said he'd spent a long time with his file before taking the risk of reaching out to him. He saw things that made him think Philip would support their cause and be willing to do something to help. He sees a reason to think that he can help more than anyone else can.

But now it's possible he's starting to warm to that feeling that he's doing something that could make a difference and makes sense, something he'd probably thought he'd lost forever. He's got Oleg laying things out for him that he maybe couldn't verbalize himself. He's tried to talk to Elizabeth in previous episodes and possibly found her stubbornness and condescension annoying. Like maybe it's one thing when he's just being dismissed as himself, but her attitude right now could have longterm consequences for a lot of people. He also maybe felt like he didn't deserve as much of a voice while he was taking himself out of it. He's no longer looking to her for his inspiration as he often did in the past (why he told Gabriel the Centre made a good match). In the past there were times she talked him into things with her pov, but now he's maybe more confident in thinking she could just be wrong. (Not that he's never thought she was wrong before, but when he does he says so.)

I do remember him saying "I'm working on it" about being stuck to Kimmy and I did think he meant that wrt the work he was doing now too. After all, iirc he was also the one who introduced the idea of wanting to do something better with his life into the conversation to begin with. He just linked Jim's life to his own, saying Jim wanted to do work for others--iow, he's saying that Jim, too, is dissatisfied with just making money. In the same episode he's voicing his disinterest in always having to expand and make more money to Stan. In both cases the person he's talking to is able to assure him he's right. Kimmy correctly notes that he's stuck and is worth more than that. Stan says he's perfectly happy with  government job and no big trips to Europe every year--and Philip doesn't use any of the conversation to try to sell Stan on that to make more money. The last few eps he's been doing a lot of that with his employees etc.--this ep there was no pep talks, no books about success, despite him still worrying about money. He just threw himself into the company dancing.

None of this really would have worked before this episode because it was only at the end of Urban Transport Planning that he clearly made the decision to see Oleg. And it wasn't until Mr. and Mrs. Teacup that he went all in after talking with him a bit. Now he's Philip back in the game again.

31 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

There’s no way he ever removes himself from her the way Elizabeth so clearly has from Henry. It’s not who he is. Henry was never her first concern, but her total lack of interest now is noticeable. 

Yes, it does seem like Philip's still a steady presence in her life--it's more like in season 3 when Elizabeth was going to the church with her. It didn't mean Philip wasn't just as focused on her, he just always takes a hands-off approach especially in those type situations. Elizabeth was duping her then too and Paige was into it.

Now with Henry, I really wonder where that's going. You don't write lines like having Elizabeth say anything Philip has to say about Henry can wait until the morning or "He's your department" in response to Philip saying he's not sure how badly Henry's hurting at the moment without that being an issue. Paige may be getting on Philip's last nerve, but that's no unusual and doesn't mean Philip's rejecting her.

Not only do I wonder how Henry views that but I wonder how Philip views it. He's always had opinions on the way Elizabeth interacted with Paige when he had them. I keep waiting for some scene where Henry just tells Philip that he knows his mother doesn't care about him. Last season Henry was open about his annoyance at the way Philip seemed to react to his suddenly improved grades, but even then the interactions were more Philip/Henry than Henry/his parents. His interactions with Elizabeth were almost always her impatiently scolding him. Now it seems he's worked through some things with his father and it seems impossible for Elizabeth's cold separation to be a non-issue just because Henry's not living at home.

[Erin9]

The way I see it right now is when Philip chose to go all in with Oleg, is when he went all in voicing his opinions to Elizabeth and Paige. He was getting reinvigorated, doing something that matters . As he said to Kimmie, thanks for confirming that btw, he was “working on” getting out of the rut. That already meant helping Oleg with something he could truly get behind; then I think he followed that up with intense criticism of Elizabeth and Paige. 

But I think as soon as Oleg floated the idea to him, we started seeing a difference in him. He engaged Elizabeth about her burnout, criticized her for how she talked to Paige. And he was already trying to get information from her before he formally committed to Oleg imo. I think just the thought of doing more started lighting a fire. But now- he’s all in. In all aspects of his life that really matter. 

Minor spoiler:

Spoiler

There’s a line of dialogue from Paige that I think we’ll hear next week where she says “I’m not like you, Dad.” IIRC. So clearly he’s not done voicing his opinion with her. And Paige, probably echoing what Elizabeth said about people burning out, probably thinks she’s somehow better equipped than he is to handle this life. I think the reality is she’s far less equipped. And Elizabeth is showing she isn’t either. She’s not “better” than Philip and neither is Paige. 

 

It’s hard for me to make predictions about Henry. I would think there’s going to be a reckoning of some sort between him and Elizabeth. Or at least Elizabeth realizing she made a mistake brushing him off, a mistake spending less time with Philip- ala what Erika just said to her about how relationships should have come first. And I’d also like to think he’d get some kind of voice in the wind up of this. But I don’t assume anything with him. Sort of like you’d think they’d finally fill in the blanks of Philip’s early life, but I don’t hold my breath. 

Edited April 21, 2018 by Erin9

[sistermagpie]

28 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

But I think as soon as Oleg floated the idea to him, we started seeing a difference in him. He engaged Elizabeth about her burnout, criticized her for how she talked to Paige. And he was already trying to get information from her before he formally committed to Oleg imo. I think just the thought of doing more started lighting a fire. But now- he’s all in. In all aspects of his life that really matter. 

I agree. I think for the first few eps he was letting it percolate in his mind. Especially in the second one where his story was all about the travel agency. It even ended with his conversation with Henry that was telling him that certain things were "his client" and he couldn't just expect someone else to do it. At that point he was probably not sure exactly what he should do. His first instinct seemed to be to talk to Elizabeth more openly--when he told her she was burnt out he said it was great advice she gave him to quit and he was thinking... before she cut him off. He maybe hoped he could do this with Elizabeth, but she shut that down. Even without working for Oleg he was probably interested in what she was doing, was trying to get details even before deciding definitively to get on board with exactly what was being asked of him. It seems like Philip truly was a sleeper agent for these three years. He was asleep and he needed a good rest, but this isn't his waking life. Just as we skipped over Elizabeth's recovery from her gunshot wound between seasons, Philip's retirement stopped the story.

It does seem like Philip now thinks it's important to break Paige out of her arrogant haze that's only being encouraged by Elizabeth. I keep feeling like this is S3 all over again where he tried to just be there as support for Paige and the result was that she was totally went all in for Elizabeth. Philip's always been the one to want to just keep the kids out of it and give them the easy life, but he may see it as better to stop being the nice guy. In a way that's a step towards integrating himself in ways he hasn't before. Paige has seen Elizabeth kill somebody, Elizabeth's always been the tough parent. Elizabeth's telling her Philip just can't take it the way she can.

Spoiler

This is also what I hope comes of the shots of him sparring with her. Elizabeth's turned their garage into the girl power gym. I would love it if next week's training session let's Paige feel like a badass in her little world where she and her tiny mother slap and kick at each other balletically in their sweatpants and Paige feels tough only to have Philip easily toss her aside like a Kleenex because he's not actually weak.

 

I have no idea what they're doing with Henry. There's so many things I'd love to see with him, but I have no idea how they're using him. This is literally the first season he's ever really been an ongoing factor so that alone seems like it could be something, but that doesn't mean they find him as important as I do. In the lead up to this season they talked about how each parent had their own kid as if this was a normal thing in families but obviously this situation isn't just an exaggeration of that. It's not just that Paige is more like Elizabeth and Henry's more like Philip--that's always been true. Elizabeth's basically lost interest in anything outside of herself, which means rejecting both Philip and Henry and clinging to Paige because she's a mini-me. And while Philip might not like what Paige is doing, I don't think you can really say he's less connected to her in the way Elizabeth is. He finds her annoying in a familiar way and understands her. I can't imagine Elizabeth being the same way with Henry. It doesn't seem possible that she knows him well enough to be annoyed by his personal flaws rather than just "OMG, you're an American alien."

[sistermagpie]

I was thinking about Elizabeth and Philip's paths this season and I'd previously thought of it as "she chose death, he chose life" and the more I think about it the more apt that seems. Elizabeth has the suicide pill, and she's pushing away everything having to do with life--marriage, son, art. She's giving Paige all her not-very-healthy coping mechanisms (be strong and aggressive, be a spy with people instead of being in a relationship, be ready to sacrifice anyone and everyone to a cause) without the context that gives her substance and makes her sympathetic.

Elizabeth has the artist telling her she should have spent more time with her husband, just being with him, instead of making the legacy that will be there after she dies. She tells the General her country's not doing well and he says, "Well, who's fault is that?" - lines that obviously apply to her as well. She's smoking all the time like she might as well because she doesn't have to worry about a long life. She says she's just tired all the time--much like the artist, although that woman was willing to try to go to a party. She tells Claudia to "finish" with Paige if she dies. Henry's not her legacy so he's gone--his feelings about the future are Philip's department. The main way she tries to reach out to Philip is by trying to turn his gaze exclusively to the past too. Or join her in her suicide mission, I guess, by agreeing that the country doesn't want to change. It's like the only way she can have him is if he makes those choices too.

But of course, he's not doing that. He's interested in changes for the better in the USSR, imagines a future where the US and the USSR aren't at war. Talks about young people, specifically, in the USSR doing exciting things--he mentions the music, specifically--iow, people making art. Henry's making plans for the future that he hates to derail since his eyes is there too.

Philip's life is far from perfect, but that doesn't seem to make him want to give up--he's living that too. Even his money problems (which were also about growth) don't seem to make him discouraged about life or the US in general so much as make him realize he was happy with what he had or what's really important to him. He thoroughly enjoys and throws himself into going to hockey games and line dancing--there are few things that are a better way to express a joy of life in the moment than having the character dance, even if they're dancing badly (although Philip's just fine!). It doesn't seem played as Philip putting on a fake show of happiness to hide his troubles. He seems to be able to put them aside for the moment and enjoy it. Even his advice to Paige is in that direction. He's disgusted with everything coming back to intel and encourages her to feel her feelings--iow, experience life rather than cut herself off. Think about things. (Paige, as always, rejects this idea.)

That made me think of his flashbacks. It always seemed like Elizabeth got flashbacks and backstory to make her more sympathetic and understandable. When we do see flashbacks of Philip's childhood they're so bleak it almost seems like doing her a favor by holding them back too--hard to compete for sympathy with a Dickensian urchin! And yet the first memory of his past he ever brings up was about swordfighting with icicles--iow, fun. Even the flashbacks last season include a toy plane and a memory of him playing with his father. The flashback in Mr. and Mrs. Teacup with the near-empty pots was most obviously a contrast with the sandwich that Philip now had handy to eat while he worried about money, but you know, it also shows Philip being a person who has always really stubbornly chosen life. He grabs the pot and goes to town with that spoon.

[Erin9]

I have to give Philip another shout out. I just rewatched some of his scenes. 

He was on fire last week. He just kept hammering Elizabeth and Paige. It was amazing. You could just see his utter disbelief, disgust and frustration that they just didn’t get it. He literally spoon fed Paige, and she couldn’t get from A to B. She sounded so incredibly naive stumbling around for an ultimately nonsensical answer. 

Loved when he moved on from Paige to Elizabeth about the General’s death. “Why did he kill himself, Elizabeth? I’m sure there was a reason.“ Classic. And of course she couldn’t give a real answer to that. Might screw things up with Paige.....

Elizabeth saying she and Paige live in the world was pretty funny. They don’t. Their whole world is spying right now. Elizabeth saying that something got lost with Philip (ie his spy career) was interesting- I think he’s just found what was lost.....and she doesn’t seem to get what it was he lost to begin with. She acts like he just got overworked or tired. Actually- he mainly stopped believing they were helping. 

When Elizabeth finally admitted Paige’s life has been in danger, but it would never happen again... because Paige learns from her mistakes - the look on his face was everything: it was who do you think you’re kidding? Me? Yourself? And even if that was true- that hardly prevents her life from ever being in danger again. He could barely take the amount of BS coming out of her mouth. 

I picked up on something else in the Kimmie discussion- he specifically references wanting to do good. Not only is he working on getting out of the rut that Kimmie observed he’s in- he wants to DO something good. I thought that being a full time travel agent was probably not terribly fulfilling and that line reinforces my opinion. 

And getting to see him and Oleg again, they really are so much alike. Philip, like Oleg, truly sees this as a chance to do something beneficial for the homeland and for US/USSR relations. I finally caught one of Oleg’s lines- he referenced hardliners FEAR that any caving won’t make them communists anymore. Sounds familiar. Philip caught it too. 

[sistermagpie]

40 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Elizabeth saying she and Paige live in the world was pretty funny. They don’t. Their whole world is spying right now. Elizabeth saying that something got lost with Philip (ie his spy career) was interesting- I think he’s just found what was lost.....and she doesn’t seem to get what it was he lost to begin with. She acts like he just got overworked or tired. Actually- he mainly stopped believing they were helping. 

I thought that line was fascinating too, even before that as well. Because Philip's usually just supportive. But here he's clearly got something to say. Yet neither of them think it's worth paying attention to him. Like you say, he's trying to spoon feed it to Paige and she's so internalized Elizabeth's explanation she can't go from A to B. She just parrots one of Elizabeth's empty lectures. And what exactly did Elizabeth mean by "we live in the world?" To Paige that probably sounds like Elizabeth sticking up for her experience even being young--like of course Paige is capable of understanding the world. But she's also implying passive-aggressively that it's Philip who's not living in the world because he's left off spying. It's her and Paige that are really "making a difference." Yet in that very scene they're the ones living a fairy tale where hero Elizabeth tried to stop the man who randomly killed himself because...who knows?

Then the line later about something getting lost--I can't remember exactly how they get into it, but again Elizabeth is turning Paige away from thinking about what just happened. Just as there must have been a reason for what the General did there must be something Philip was trying to say. But Elizabeth just dismisses it with another empty platitude. "He loves me, he loves you...something just got lost somewhere." He loves us (the less important thing) but he just doesn't get it anymore. He's lost his ability to understand "the work." It's a flaw in him. Something missing in him. I agree she definitely needs to see it as him being burnt out. If he's just burnt out then the problem is that he's weak and her being strong is the correct solution. She probably also thinks Elizabeth's brooding about people they've hurt is part of that weakness so she's furious at him trying to get Paige to do it.

But of course it really seems more like if there's anyone who's lost something it's Elizabeth (and Paige is in danger of that too if she makes it that far). She's no longer really working for a better future. She's the opposite of a revolutionary. She's afraid of anything else changing. Her world's reduced to Claudia's apartment here they talk about the old days in a country that only truly exists in their minds.

47 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I picked up on something else in the Kimmie discussion- he specifically references wanting to do good. Not only is he working on getting out of the rut that Kimmie observed he’s in- he wants to DO something good. I thought that being a full time travel agent was probably not terribly fulfilling and that line reinforces my opinion. 

Yeah, I thought that was really significant that he specifically has Jim mirroring his issues about doing something good because he's, imo, just really excited to have that direction and talk about it. It occurs to me that the times Philip most wants to talk to people as "himself" (albeit in code as a character) is when he's figured something out about what to do and is excited about it. There's also the conversation with Stan where he seems to be working through how capitalism *isn't* the solution. On one hand he's describing his actual money problems, but maybe it can also be seen as the other part of the conversation. Just like "Jim," he's more interested in doing good than being rich.

I find myself hoping that they set Paige and her crew up with a little more arrogance so Philip can knock them sideways a bit. The three of them are so comfortable in their little world where they're teaching Paige everything she needs to know about the world and the USSR and spying. Philip's supposed to know his place. But this is a guy who stood up to the KGB--is doing so currently. He doesn't get his strength from being part of a movement, but for the first time on the show, he's not alone.

[hellmouse]

On 4/24/2018 at 11:08 PM, sistermagpie said:

The flashback in Mr. and Mrs. Teacup with the near-empty pots was most obviously a contrast with the sandwich that Philip now had handy to eat while he worried about money, but you know, it also shows Philip being a person who has always really stubbornly chosen life. He grabs the pot and goes to town with that spoon.

The other thing that struck me about that scene was that when the little girl approached, he didn't push her away. I thought he would want to guard the little food he had, but he shared it. I found that really moving tbh.

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, hellmouse said:

The other thing that struck me about that scene was that when the little girl approached, he didn't push her away. I thought he would want to guard the little food he had, but he shared it. I found that really moving tbh.

I thought the same thing. Totally found myself wanting them to be friends.

But in general, that was obviously a choice to have all the kids sharing rather than fighting over the food or having bigger kids take all the food first or whatever. 

[sistermagpie]

I forgot--another thing that I was thinking recently about Philip was about the song that plays when he has that flashback to playing with his father. I had originally thought that the song was something that was popular when he was a kid. So the song was helping to set the time period and songs are often connected with memory. (Even if it doesn't seem like his family would have a radio at home!)

But I recently just happened to see something about the song and I was totally wrong. The song's about WWII, but it's from the late 60s. Philip wouldn't even have been in the USSR when it was popular. He might not know it at all. Yet somebody decided to use it--the only time that I remember they've ever used a Russian song--to score his flashback. They chose a song about soldiers dying on a foreign battlefield so they never get to come home. The souls of those soldiers, in the song, turn into white cranes. Philip in the flashback is swooping around the room with his arms out like he's an airplane, and in the first flashback he's also playing with an airplane made out of woven sticks. That season he wants to go back to the USSR but ultimately can't (it's also only season where we've ever seen any of his family unless we count him telling a story about his mother in S4).

Foreshadowing? Not just about not going home, that is, but of his death on this foreign battlefield?

[sistermagpie]

Quote

Erin9:

But my feelings about him/his choice to blab are not helped by the fact that I hate all the airtime going to this- finances and boarding school stuff. If this show was lasting longer, sure- but I can think of other things for Philip to talk about. This is not a memorable father/son conversation given that the show is wrapping up. We already knew all of this about Henry from when he applied to begin with. He’s a goal oriented planner.

This quote stuck with me because I've been trying to figure out why this season feels off to me even when I'm enjoying it. Part of it is the time jump. I can see how they set everyone up in S5 and just said they were just how they ended up brought to the logical extreme, but it still feels like a sign where they accidentally wrote the first letters too big and now they're squashing too many in at the end.

But the other thing was maybe this. The show I think usually uses Elizabeth's arc as a spine for the season. It makes sense because she's the most proactive. Paige often drives the plot too. Philip tends to more react to things.

This season it feels like Elizabeth has this clear thing going on--she doesn't seem to be evolving so much as stubbornly sticking with her position until she'll either break out or not. Her scenes with Paige are also rather repetitive--Paige screws up in a way that shows she's unsuited, Elizabeth scolds her and gives her some empty tough talk, Paige says she gets it, they go to Claudia's and talk about the old country that mostly goes over old material or add fun things.

With Elizabeth we've got years of backstory, scenes chosen to show us here she's coming from, what drives her, what were the most important lessons she internalized. At this point it seems like the show is still committed to never giving us anything like that to Philip. Not just a story of his life, but he also doesn't get flashbacks that illuminate his motivations now.

He and Elizabeth have been enlisted by the different factions. But the weight of the missions isn't even. Part of it is just there's less to show with Philip--with Elizabeth we have endless time spent on new sources and costumes and plots even if they all go nowhere. They're all about playing out her commitment. With Philip it's so scattered it just feels less substantial. The money stuff honestly seems better in theory than in practice. Especially because without the kind of stuff we've got for Elizabeth it's hard to know how it fits together.

Like, they're not using flashbacks or whatever to add weight to the money stuff or Henry. It's just played like any overwhelmed middle class dad who's embarrassed at his money troubles. Not only is it not giving us any good character stuff with Philip or Henry, it's keeping us from it by having their scenes be about the logistics of Henry's school 11 months from now.

It's like just business to give him something to do but without the kind of grounding Elizabeth has it doesn't work the same way. Like when Elizabeth hangs out with Young Hee you get how important even light scenes are because of that grounding. With Philip I don't even really know why he grew the travel agency to begin with. What does it mean to him? Was he bored? Did he just think this was what he was supposed to do? It's like they just dropped him into this along with the grinding money issues. Despite the fact that the guy should have been drawing a large KGB salary for years--how does he not have savings enough to cover Henry's school? And why doesn't the money problem seem able to touch Elizabeth or Paige when Henry can't get away from it no matter how many scholarships he wins?

It honestly just seems like an excuse to make us watch Philip squirming as a businessman without that actually telling us interesting about Philip. It's really bizarre when you think about it. If you're not using Philip's wildly different origins to inform this story what's the point of it?

[Erin9]

I don’t even think the money stuff sounds that good in theory. It’s not as interesting as the spy stuff. Reality is- we know it doesn’t really matter long term because there isn’t one. But- in practice- they could have used it to express more clearly why he grew the business, did he even like being a travel agent, use it talk about his past, etc. 

I think being a travel agent wasn’t fulfilling. He said as much to Kimmie when he talked about wanting to do good, being stuck.  But it could have been something Philip said explicitly as Philip too. And expanded on. 

Thing is- they could do more with the Oleg side of things. They chose not to.  I feel like I have a good understanding of what Philip is doing and why.  But it couldn’t hurt to expand on things a bit. I read a review that said he just got back into spying last night. He got back into it full time the night he started spilling to Oleg/spying on E. But time isn’t heavily spent on that. I wonder if Philip will interact with Oleg again. 4 episodes and everything has to go down.....

They’ve done a lot of good stuff with Philip this season with Elizabeth, Paige, Oleg, kimmie, Stan last week, even Henry- aside from the finance angle. (And even the finance angle plays out as a fairly normal father/son issue. A contrast to any of Paige/elizabeth’s. Regardless of the fact I don’t care much for it.)  I hope they keep it up. We waited a long time for Philip to find a new direction. It’s been almost everything I hoped it would  be.  I love the Soviet  v Soviet angle despite the little time put into it. It was a brilliant decision. They should have put more time on it. But it’s not done yet. Can’t be. So- i’ll withhold total judgment until then. 

But the whole business end is a drag imo. That and what are repetitive P/E/C scenes. Hopefully we’re done with them. I felt they got their point across after a couple of times. 

I was too busy being annoyed we had to hear about the business to care stavros was fired. 

I think this all comes down to Philip is innately easier to understand and like. They don’t feel they have to do any heavy lifting, I guess. Still- things like mentioning his father died at age 6 with no explanation, nothing about what happened to his mother? No tapes for him? Come on. That’s basic. We know more about oleg’s family than philip’s. I love Oleg, but there is something off about that. 

[Umbelina]

I just want Philip's childhood story.

I think I understand why they are doing the bankruptcy story, and it makes sense, but yeah, time away from what we want to know, much like the pastors.

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I just want Philip's childhood story.

I think I understand why they are doing the bankruptcy story, and it makes sense, but yeah, time away from what we want to know, much like the pastors.

IKR? It's so frustrating and I honestly don't understand it. They've got two leads, both of whom are pretending to be people they aren't. They both have backstories that are wildly different from the people they're pretending to be. With Elizabeth they've understood from the first that this is central to understanding her. Philip, for some reason, just floats around like a ghost who had no existence before he was Philip Jennings. Even more insulting is when in lieu of a story about him we get stories about randos who might have known him in another life but as it is have nothing to say about him.

MR doesn't now his backstory either.

12 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I don’t even think the money stuff sounds that good in theory.

Yeah, I was being overly nice saying it was interesting even there. LOL! The only interesting thing about it to me is to have it reinforce why Philip believes what he actually does. Why he isn't a strict capitalist, how he grew up etc. Instead the story often plays like having money problems in real life where they take up all this space in your head and your day with nothing to show for it because the numbers are never going to add up. I'd hoped that once he got fully on board with Oleg the money stuff would recede but nope, it's back with a vengeance. Where Elizabeth and Paige talk about spying, Henry and Philip talk about money. Only Elizabeth and Paige also get to talk about Elizabeth's past.

12 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Thing is- they could do more with the Oleg side of things. They chose not to.  I feel like I have a good understanding of what Philip is doing and why.  But it couldn’t hurt to expand on things a bit. I read a review that said he just got back into spying last night. He got back into it full time the night he started spilling to Oleg/spying on E. But time isn’t heavily spent on that. I wonder if Philip will interact with Oleg again. 4 episodes and everything has to go down.....

 

Yes, I think another weakness of not spending as much time on this as they should is like you said here, it seems like people aren't registering the weight of what's going on. Oleg is on his own with no diplomatic protection, his family is terrified for him back home, it's hard for him to even communicate with Arkady and he's got both the FBI, the KGB and a vengeful ex on his tail. He's in so. much. danger. And yet it often doesn't feel that way, especially when we just check in with him decoding a message we don't see. It seems like they're always playing up the risks Elizabeth is taking as much as they can while Oleg and Philip don't feel endangered at all even though it should be the opposite. Sure she's in danger too, but at this point we know it's usually other people who are in trouble from her.

Also by not having them able to talk--and they could have given them more opportunity to talk by lengthening the conversation they did have at least and then maybe using Philip scenes to express how he's still thinking about it--we lose the connection to the country, which is the whole point. That's probably another reason why people seem to vaguely think that Philip is going against the USSR or for the USA. They think he's just spying on Elizabeth to save her instead of him having a strong ideological motivation. It's easy for Elizabeth to remind us of her position because she just talks about how she hates the US and how the USSR is under attack. Oleg and Philip don't get to say anything about what they're protecting the USSR from.

12 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I think this all comes down to Philip is innately easier to understand and like. They don’t feel they have to do any heavy lifting, I guess. Still- things like mentioning his father died at age 6 with no explanation, nothing about what happened to his mother? No tapes for him? Come on. That’s basic. We know more about oleg’s family than philip’s. I love Oleg, but there is something off about that. 

We know more about Claudia's backstory at this point! It's ridiculous!

[Erin9]

I mentioned this in the main thread, but I think it fits here too: 

The ONE thing I’m getting out of all this talk about money between Henry and Philip is how obviously interested in making a lot of it Henry is. Being elite interests him. That seems like his big passion. Doing well, being with the top 1%. Not people. (Not that he is uncaring.) Not causes. Wanting to do well is good, but it also sounds a bit cold in the context of his parents beliefs and life motivations. His big motivation is boarding school. Being there and staying there. 

They’re talking about money/boarding school  and in the same episode Philip is passing information to Oleg that could get them both killed because he’s passionate about the future of Russia and better relations with the US. He’s passionate about not seeing Elizabeth get killed. Ie- he’s passsionate about people. 

I hadn’t even thought about us knowing more about Claudia! But we do. Ridiculous. 

I could rant A LOT about how I feel about the lack of time to Oleg/Philip. Still, the Summit hasn’t happened yet so maybe....hopefully....something big will come with it. I mean- the opening show of the season was all about the Summit. It got Philip pulled back into spying. On Elizabeth of all people. Pulled Oleg in again. Got Elizabeth roped into a suicide mission. We’ve seen her side repeatedly. Hopefully the guys will get something truly important. 

Edited May 4, 2018 by Erin9

[sistermagpie]

On 5/4/2018 at 2:12 PM, Erin9 said:

The ONE thing I’m getting out of all this talk about money between Henry and Philip

I really liked a quote from MR about Philip this season. He said, "Philip has always chased the dream of making a success of himself outside of the spy world and as it slowly comes crashing down around him he realizes that it wasn't his dream."

I don't think the show has done a nearly good enough job making this as clear as it could--but then, I think they always have to fight against the default idea that many viewers have that Philip wants the American Dream and hates the USSR now. I hope he gets to put this into words in some way on the show, though.

[Umbelina]

@icemiser69

You haven't seen it because it isn't there.  Henry has never been shown to be overly interested in wealth or the trappings of wealth, like designer clothing or trips abroad.  On the contrary, he's going to work in a tanning factory to continue his education and home away from his dysfunctional home.  That's about as blue collar and disgusting as it gets, and he's HAPPY about it.

The rest is mostly projection I think, or the assumption that anyone at an expensive boarding school only cares about money and power, not people, not the environment, nothing good, only capitalist selfish goals.  Henry's never even asked for an expensive designer pair of shoes. 

Edited May 7, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

31 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I feel like I am missing the bulk of the show somewhere, because I just don't get all of the "Henry is going to be a big success" shtick.  Perhaps he will, perhaps he won't, I don't think there is nearly enough evidence one way or the other to determine what Henry's future will be.

 

Henry is a big success now for the level he's at. He got himself into a very exclusive boarding school where he's doing very well as a student and is also a star hockey player and the coach wants to make him captain next year. When faced with no tuition for next year he solved his own problem, which speaks well for his chances of success in the future. (Though I disagree that there's anything blue collar about working at your friend's dad's tanning factory that your friend already works at in the summer so you can make money for your elite prep school tuition. Not blue collar--but certainly a sign that the kid has the qualities that will make him a success in the future.)

Of course we can't say what exactly what will happen to Henry in the future but yes, I'd say he's distinguished himself a lot for a 15/16-year-old.

[Umbelina]

33 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Henry is a big success now for the level he's at. He got himself into a very exclusive boarding school where he's doing very well as a student and is also a star hockey player and the coach wants to make him captain next year. When faced with no tuition for next year he solved his own problem, which speaks well for his chances of success in the future. (Though I disagree that there's anything blue collar about working at your friend's dad's tanning factory that your friend already works at in the summer so you can make money for your elite prep school tuition. Not blue collar--but certainly a sign that the kid has the qualities that will make him a success in the future.)

Of course we can't say what exactly what will happen to Henry in the future but yes, I'd say he's distinguished himself a lot for a 15/16-year-old.

It's dead animals, a lot of stink, a lot of chemicals, and even if he lucked out and was put in an office at the tanning factory?  It's disgusting.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning_(leather)

I think he would be working on the factory floor though, that's certainly what it sounded like.  Entry level would be completely blue collar work, though perhaps that father/owner is giving him a bump in pay to help out with school money.

I think Philip has such mixed feelings here.  The Philip we've come to know would be both proud of his son for his initiative and willingness to work for what he wants, but also embarrassed and concerned that he, as a full time capitalist now, wasn't able to provide for Henry without Henry's assistance. 

Also, I think he misses Henry quite a bit, that's why he goes up to the school all the time, and calls him all the time.  His wife and his daughter don't exactly hate him all of the time, but they don't respect him, or care about whatever issues and problems he's having.  It's not much of a "family" for him anymore, and he's horrified that Paige is gung ho communist KGB spy focused. 

Philip's life is in tatters too, no matter what he tries, it's not working for him.  I hope he makes it out alive, but I seriously doubt it.  I just hope we get to see his childhood, to "know" him more, see what exactly motivated him into being KGB, how it all went wrong for this thoughtful and much more emotional half of the KGB team the "Jennings."

Edited May 7, 2018 by Umbelina

[Erin9]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I really liked a quote from MR about Philip this season. He said, "Philip has always chased the dream of making a success of himself outside of the spy world and as it slowly comes crashing down around him he realizes that it wasn't his dream."

I don't think the show has done a nearly good enough job making this as clear as it could--but then, I think they always have to fight against the default idea that many viewers have that Philip wants the American Dream and hates the USSR now. I hope he gets to put this into words in some way on the show, though.

I like this quote too. I feel like I have a pretty good idea what Philip’s dreams are, but it’d be nice to hear him express them explicitly. I think it is something along the lines of feeling like he’s done something good and useful in the world. That’s what I’ve been getting from him this season. 

Yep. There seems to be a perception that just because Philip likes things about America and has expressed (legitimate) doubts about Soviet leadership’s abilities,  pre Gorbachev, he’s no longer concerned about the home country and is fully Americanized. I never thought so, but since Philip talks less, I think his POV is sometimes misinterpreted. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

It's dead animals, a lot of stink, a lot of chemicals, and even if he lucked out and was put in an office at the tanning factory?  It's disgusting.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning_(leather)

Oh, I know it's disgusting. I wasn't saying the job wasn't blue collar, but that the kids working there didn't make them so. The owner's son works there in the summer. Probably his dad thinks it builds character.

But if you meant that it showed Henry didn't consider a blue collar job beneath him in order to make this money, then I agree, absolutely. There's never really been any reason to think that he would be. He's willing to work that job for the summer. He's not going to work there for his career.

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I think Philip has such mixed feelings here.  The Philip we've come to know would be both proud of his son for his initiative and willingness to work for what he wants, but also embarrassed and concerned that he, as a full time capitalist now, wasn't able to provide for Henry without Henry's assistance. 

You know, that quote above made me think of something that I hadn't thought of before because I think you're right about his feelings here. But I originally only thought of his "I'm not  a failure!" and him not wanting to talk to the father as being about being embarrassed, which is probably at least part of it. But I wonder if he's also surprised/honest in saying it. I mean, he's not a failure. He's a "platinum spy" and one of the best. For all he started to feel like shit all the time he has a great track record at his job. Of course, the guy was talking business failures (and his own at that, not Philip's) but I wonder if part of Philip's reaction is that he's really not used to that.

If he's realizing how this isn't for him he might not have been really experiencing it as personal shame and talking to the other guy about it might not just feel humiliating but just like...enough with this crap.

[Umbelina]

Philip has so much to consider, he's a man between worlds, and the woman he loves has her feet planted in the world that was killing him.

[SunnyBeBe]

Are there any other Philip fans around here?  Granted, he's a serious killer.  Still, I'm rooting for his survival.  Is he lumped with Elizabeth as far as hoping that he gets his just deserts?  The more I think about it, the more I think that I am Team Philip, for whatever good that is. lol 

I think that his character has progressed since season one.  I think he's a better person now, though, still very flawed.  If he were to stay removed from the spy world, I don't think he would hurt anyone.  But, I can say the same for Elizabeth. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Erin9]

I’m Team Philip. But- admittedly- I root for Elizabeth too. I always rooted for them as a couple and a family though. I’ve never wanted to see them get caught and go to prison, though I recognize that as a possible ending. Never saw it as necessary. 

I really look at them, in the context of this show, as being like other spies. No better or worse. So, I judge them from that POV. 

I don’t feel they need justice so to speak. They’ve paid over the years. The exhaustion and stress. The time away from their kids. The lies to their kids and those consequences- we’re not done with that end of it yet. The guilt over actions they’ve taken. Everything they gave up. They haven’t been sitting back having a great time over the years. They’ve paid in many ways already imo. But I do understand the desire for concrete justice- death, prison, kids hating them forever, etc. 

But- I do think Philip and Elizabeth have evolved into better people. They always wanted to do good and have searched for the right path. And have found something in the end.

I think Elizabeth and Philip are both not a danger to anyone if they’re not spying. 

I’d like it if the Jennings family could successfully disappear somewhere. But- that won’t happen.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Erin9

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

I’m Team Philip. But- admittedly- I root for Elizabeth too. I always rooted for them as a couple and a family though. I’ve never wanted to see them get caught and go to prison, though I recognize that as a possible ending. Never saw it as necessary. 

This is basically my position too. They don't seem set up as people who made a choice that they have to pay for now. They made a choice that they've already suffered for because they thought it was the right thing and they still were responsible enough that they evolved into better people. I have no problem seeing their inevitable tragic endings as tragic rather than just desserts. Philip, in particular, has taken risks to act on behalf of victims.

Reading the recent discussion of Elizabeth's flashbacks on the ep thread I really do remain confused as to why the show thinks it was important to go so all in on Elizabeth's evolution being put in context of her upbringing and who she is etc. and not do that with Philip. I get that Philip's choices are often more in line with the mainstream so they don't need as much explaining but frankly...neither do Elizabeth's. We know her mindset by now. It doesn't really need periodic explaining.

Philip's at this point genuinely is more of a mystery, even if he's now operating in a no man's land where he's thrown off his early conditioning. So many of Elizabeth's memories *are* about conditioning--her mother's lessons, her training, her rape, her conversations with superiors. What are the values that were instilled in Philip from such an early age that they're still guiding him? Why not use flashbacks etc. to make it more clear how he was relating to his failed experiment in capitalism? He told Kimmy that he wanted to do some good in the world, agreed that the life he was in now where he was just living to be comfortable was being "stuck." He had the one flashback that seemed to be about how he was more than satisfied with having a sandwich as opposed to begging for scraps. Presumably this is why he wanted to work with Oleg.

So why not something that might shed some light on why he wanted to do good in the world, since it's clearly such a fundamental part of who he is? The only real flashback we saw about his personality was when he killed his attackers, but many people with that formative experience go on to become bullies themselves. That related to his guilt and shame over hurting others, just as his revelation about his father did. There's nothing about where his fundamental goodness came from.

It's especially weird this season when it seems like they couldn't figure out what to do with him on screen. Like they wanted him to be onscreen but there just wasn't much to show with the travel agency stuff. That would seem like the perfect opportunity to use flashbacks to show how he himself had lost sight of "who he was" like Elizabeth was warned about in her flashback. He's the one who went to therapy and yet he seems less connected or acquainted with himself than ever. His flashbacks still never involve actual relationships (even the early one with Irina is completely generic) and yet he's the one who's so vulnerable to compassion and connection with others it made him reject the work!

[Umbelina]

I was honestly pissed when suddenly we were seeing MORE Elizabeth flashbacks.

No dudes.  There are two leads in this show, and the only backstory you've bothered to tell us is Elizabeth's. 

I want to know PHILIP'S backstory!  Damnit!

It just makes me think this whole show has really been about Elizabeth/Paige.

I seriously hope the writers FINALLY give us more Philip backstory in the finale.  It's possible.  I hope.

[sistermagpie]

19 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I was honestly pissed when suddenly we were seeing MORE Elizabeth flashbacks.

No dudes.  There are two leads in this show, and the only backstory you've bothered to tell us is Elizabeth's. 

I want to know PHILIP'S backstory!  Damnit!

It just makes me think this whole show has really been about Elizabeth/Paige.

I seriously hope the writers FINALLY give us more Philip backstory in the finale.  It's possible.  I hope.

Seriously, yes! I can't understand it. It's not like the two leads are ordinary Americans and Elizabeth happens to be the one with a traumatic past that we need to know. Like she's a refugee and Philip's her husband from the midwest. But they actually both have pasts that are equally exotic. Both of them just risked everything to put their country first. Philip's backstory seems like it should even be more illuminating at this point since Elizabeth is very much defined by the mission and we know what that is.

I also have a secret dream that they'll use the last ep for some important Philip backstory. So annoying!

[Umbelina]

Oh holy hell!

I just got a flash.

What if Philip witnesses his dad's death, and the flashback we finally get about Philip's past happens only when HE is dying, and seeing Henry's eyes witness what Philip witnessed as a child?

I know that sounds super weird, but I just SAW it play out in my mind, complete with Henry yelling "NOOOOOOO," and "Daaaaad!"  As Philip looks at Henry as he's dying, the flashback comes.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Umbelina

[Erin9]

28 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I was honestly pissed when suddenly we were seeing MORE Elizabeth flashbacks.

No dudes.  There are two leads in this show, and the only backstory you've bothered to tell us is Elizabeth's. 

I want to know PHILIP'S backstory!  Damnit!

It just makes me think this whole show has really been about Elizabeth/Paige.

I seriously hope the writers FINALLY give us more Philip backstory in the finale.  It's possible.  I hope.

So was I. My first thought was: AGAIN?! Really. Would it kill them to give us Philip’s story? 

It feels more like it’s been this kind of emphasis: Philip/Elizabeth the couple, Elizabeth, Philip, Paige/Elizabeth, Paige. I don’t really think Paige has gotten more explanation than Philip, but that’s debatable. I think I have a better understanding of Philip than Paige anyhow. 

I never thought about where Philip’s goodness and compassion came from. That’s a good question. I guess I thought it was innate. Some people just are that way. But- if we had to find out why Elizabeth is the way she is...why not give an explanation for him? Why toy with us with flashbacks and totally leave us hanging with details that his dad died when he was 6? 

Given Paige’s state of mind, the possibility of telling Henry, it seems likely there might be an opportunity to explain himself to them somewhere in the finale. Maybe to Stan too. Or maybe a flashback that explains a choice he makes. I’m going to be pretty mad if we’re left with nothing. But- I’m trying to prepare for that. 

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Oh holy hell!

I just got a flash.

What if Philip witnesses his dad's death, and the flashback we finally get about Philip's past happens only when HE is dying, and seeing Henry's eyes witness what Philip witnessed as a child?

I know that sounds super weird, but I just SAW it play out in my mind, complete with Henry yelling "NOOOOOOO," and "Daaaaad!"  As Philip looks at Henry as he's dying, the flashback comes.

Well- that was would be one way to give us something. But- noooooooo to Philip dying like that! So sad. :(

I have thought they could use the finale to put some puzzle pieces together about him. There are MANY ways to do it. 

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

What if Philip witnesses his dad's death, and the flashback we finally get about Philip's past happens only when HE is dying, and seeing Henry's eyes witness what Philip witnessed as a child?

I could actually see something like that. Philip's dad also died without Philip knowing what he really did for work and Philip left home--I have definitely thought they might be just paralleling them in the background.

But jeez even there you'd think that would help if they actually showed us Philip doing these things and being affected by them.

14 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Given Paige’s state of mind, the possibility of telling Henry, it seems likely there might be an opportunity to explain himself to them somewhere in the finale. Maybe to Stan too. Or maybe a flashback that explains a choice he makes. I’m going to be pretty mad if we’re left with nothing. But- I’m trying to prepare for that. 

Yup, me too. Trying to prepare for it. But really, like you say, why make it clear his father's death is important and then not even explain it. Just because if he lived Philip would know what his job was? That was barely an issue even when it was his main storyline in S5 because what do you do with it? He even made it seem as if life was *harder* when his father was alive, which makes no sense since he had a good job. Did things get worse after that? What was his relationship with his brother like? How did he leave his family if protecting them was important? Did he think he was protecting them by leaving?

Elizabeth's backstory is so very straightforward in comparison, especially now that we know her so well. With Paige we met her when she was 13 and saw her at home so that pretty much is her backstory. Then we saw her go through probably the most important part of her adolescence--and her relationship with her mother dominated that.

I wouldn't mind if at least during that road trip Paige talked to *both* her parents about stuff.

[SunnyBeBe]

If you're interested, there's a link on the Small Talk in the Laundry Room thread for something on you tube  for another super Philip fan.  It's pretty funny(some emotional comments too) and not too long as she watches the episode.  She's having another one after the finale. I predict tears. 

I think it's interesting how fans have bonded over their feelings about Philip.!   (As the fan in the you tube video says, "NOT PHILIP.  Anyone, but, Philip!")   I do wonder why I like him so much.  I even find myself really liking the Rhys interviews immensely.  lol  I don't know what it is.  

I would like to know more about his background as a character, but, I'm not sure if it would cause me to like the character any more than I already do.  Maybe....

Edited May 29, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Plums]

from sistermagpies comment in the spoiler thread-

Quote

Philip having a brother he's not close to is a story that would need answering imo. He himself stated in one of his very few talks about his past that he was raised thinking life was about hard work and protecting your family. Why would he already be not close to his brother at 16? What about their mother? If they're already estranged that's dramatic. When he mentions him to Elizabeth it's like it's no biggie.

I agree the story was about getting Gabriel to quit and show he went back to the USSR needing to create families since he just kept one from connecting. That doesn't change the fact that the most important thing about Philip's brother is that Philip has a brother and I want to know about him. I have no reason to care if the kid who wanted to meet Philip meets him instead. I mean, it's fine but obviously not the main point of interest. I already know Mischa's mom and grandfather who take up screentime and are technically connected to Philip but offer no enlightenment about him at all. At least his brother provided the admittedly great fact that he was super smart.

Also there's nothing in that scene that indicates they're particularly estranged since the nephew obviously knows about him. They haven't seen each other since adolescence of course but neither had Elizabeth and her Mom. Family is important to Philip and Elizabeth's mother did not seem particularly well connected as the wife of a coward. I assume the Centre would provide tape recorders since almost no one would have one and they'd have to vet messages. Did he get tapes from mom before she died? Did she die? These tapes were not about Elizabeth's mom having clout they were about keeping Elizabeth connected to her home so wtf would they not do that with Philip? Did his big brother never know about the milk gang or never beg for scraps with the other urchins?

I mean, I don't think it's unbelievable to not be close to family and that necessarily being the same thing as "estranged", which implies intent. To me, it seems like Philip was a smart kid, got scooped up for KGB training, and he and his brother just drifted apart rather than maintained contact the way Elizabeth and her mother did. There's nothing else really there. They went their separate ways and aren't connected anymore beyond a shared childhood of deprivation. I don't care about Philip's brother in Russia because I take the fact that he doesn't seem to miss him the way we've been shown Elizabeth missed her mother as his brother and that extended family ultimately not being all that important to him. So that's the reason why it's interesting and sad to me that Mischa getting to know that family and hearing about what Philip was like as a kid from a brother he hasn't spoken to in decades makes him feel connected to his father. 

[sistermagpie]

30 minutes ago, Plums said:

I mean, I don't think it's unbelievable to not be close to family and that necessarily being the same thing as "estranged", which implies intent. To me, it seems like Philip was a smart kid, got scooped up for KGB training, and he and his brother just drifted apart rather than maintained contact the way Elizabeth and her mother did. There's nothing else really there. They went their separate ways and aren't connected anymore beyond a shared childhood of deprivation. I don't care about Philip's brother in Russia because I take the fact that he doesn't seem to miss him the way we've been shown Elizabeth missed her mother as his brother and that extended family ultimately not being all that important to him. So that's the reason why it's interesting and sad to me that Mischa getting to know that family and hearing about what Philip was like as a kid from a brother he hasn't spoken to in decades makes him feel connected to his father. 

But none of that is in the show, it's creating a story out of the absence of one. We simply don't know about any of Philip's relationships in childhood, but relationships in childhood are important for everyone. That's what shaped him even by his own telling--he himself refers to family as the prime directive of his whole life the way Elizabeth refers to the Cause. We have no idea if Philip misses his brother like Elizabeth misses her mother because he doesn't talk about himself the way she does or get flashbacks like she does. He generally assumes that what he wants doesn't matter so doesn't focus on it. He doesn't talk about his mother either except for one story where he said she as tough. Is there nothing there either? Philip just didn't care for either of them? Just awkwardly tried to make small talk when not handing over the rake money? (How lonely and extreme--important backstory!) It was just a lucky coincidence that his assigned wife and children interested him enough to care about them? And his bland high school girlfriend who knew he would never leave family behind so lied about being pregnant? And the child they had that he never met but immediately felt so responsible for the KGB knew they could use him to manipulate him? And Kimmy and Martha? And Stan? The guy's kind of defined by how vulnerable he is to caring about people, especially people who depend on him or need him.

The few times we do have flashbacks for Philip they're likely to be extreme so I see no reason to assume that if he never talks about his brother it means they just lived in the same one-room house with little food and struggled to stay alive for their entire childhood but that doesn't mean anything. It actually seems like the pattern with Philip that viewers assume there's nothing there until it turns out it's the opposite.

Sure it's sad Mischa can't meet the real Philip and has to just hear about him from the brother he hasn't spoken to in decades. But it's just as sad for me that time that might have been devoted to Philip's backstory for me was given to his nonsensical high school girlfriend and her relatives.

Edited May 29, 2018 by sistermagpie

[hellmouse]

19 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Sure it's sad Mischa can't meet the real Philip and has to just hear about him from the brother he hasn't spoken to in decades. But it's just as sad for me that time that might have been devoted to Philip's backstory for me was given to his nonsensical high school girlfriend and her relatives.

I wish I could give that quote a hundred hearts. 

I have been rewatching the episodes and there's a scene, I think it's in Season 2, where Elizabeth tells Philip about how she told her mother the KGB had chosen her, and how her mother reacted by telling her to go. It was a nice scene because it was Elizabeth trying to explain to Philip why she felt almost obligated to tell Paige about them. It was what her mother did with her. And for Elizabeth to open up to Philip is nice.

But. It would have also been really nice if at some point in time we had heard a sentence or two about how Philip's family reacted to him being selected by the KGB. Was it an honor? A duty? Was he eager to get away, or sad? Was his mother already dead? We see him telling Irina about the leadership program, but that's after he's been in training for a while. 

24 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But none of that is in the show, it's creating a story out of the absence of one. We simply don't know about any of Philip's relationships in childhood, but relationships in childhood are important for everyone. That's what shaped him even by his own telling--he himself refers to family as the prime directive of his whole life the way Elizabeth refers to the Cause.

As you say above, we can conjecture about it, but we don't know. And that is strange for someone for whom family is so important.

I've accepted at this point that we'll never really know, but the Elizabeth flashbacks are more frustrating on rewatch because as a viewer I know we won't get the same level of detail for Philip.

[sistermagpie]

20 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

But. It would have also been really nice if at some point in time we had heard a sentence or two about how Philip's family reacted to him being selected by the KGB. Was it an honor? A duty? Was he eager to get away, or sad? Was his mother already dead? We see him telling Irina about the leadership program, but that's after he's been in training for a while. 

I remember that scene so well because when it aired I remember watching it and Elizabeth says the thing about her mother--they're filing things together at the agency. She tells her story and then there's this long long silence where Philip just sits back or something. It *seems* like he's going to respond by talking about his own experience because there's a pause and why wouldn't he? They're two people who share an experience that's very very rare.

But Philip just says nothing. At the time it seemed like maybe that was because he was an orphan or something!  But no, he just didn't say anything even though presumably he disagreed with Elizabeth and her mother.

When he does think about his family he focuses on the father he barely knew. He even has that moment where he asks Gabriel if the Centre "came for him" because his father was a guard in a camp which is absurd. The two jobs are nothing like each other. But it's also interesting that he's speaking about himself--why wouldn't they come to his brother too?

When the pictures of Philip's childhood home were posted a lot of us noticed what appeared to be a crutch and we wondered if his brother was sickly or something in some way, but he seems fine as an adult so maybe not.

[Erin9]

This season may not have had the quantity or quality (too much travel agent, not enough background) of Philip that I wanted. But- some of my all time fave moments of the whole show have been with him this season.

Philip talking to Oleg and hearing a man with a POV so similar to his own that he chose to get back into spying and risk it all for his beliefs. He chose to spy on his wife and risk the wrath of the KGB, FBI and his wife. To do good and protect her. 

Trying to get Paige and Elizabeth to acknowledge the reality of the General’s death. That was so good. His disgust at their unwillingness to acknowledge the obvious was great.  Loved watching him push them. For all that we still don’t know about Philip, he has said and done a lot this season that has been pivotal and character defining and illuminating. 

Calling Elizabeth out on nearly getting Paige killed- and forcing her to admit it could happen again. (Not sure if she said it- but she knew it.)

His warning to Kimmie/ refusing to help Elizabeth. Then- telling Elizabeth that he’d blown the Kimmie op for good. He wanted to do right by Kimmie. And was willing to totally blow her op and risked their cover by giving so much info to her. That was huge for Philip. 

Sparring with Paige- showing her how little she really knew. About anything. Him. Spying. Sparring. Herself. Her mom’s training. 

Philip trying to say good bye to Henry. There was everything and nothing to say at that moment. 

Pretty much every moment with Stan. The last one at the travel agency wasn’t stellar, but the rest were amazing. 

Telling Elizabeth that he’d spied on her in the hopes of a better homeland, world and to protect her. Trying to get her to think about her actions. And finally noting that he’d done what she would have- put their country first. That was all such a long time coming. 

So, for all my complaining, there have been some amazing Philip scenes. Some of my very favorites. 

Hopefully tomorrow there will be more. 

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

His warning to Kimmie/ refusing to help Elizabeth. Then- telling Elizabeth that he’d blown the Kimmie op for good. He wanted to do right by Kimmie. And was willing to totally blow her op and risked their cover by giving so much info to her. That was huge for Philip. 

Started to answer and then thought it more belonged in the Elizabeth thread...

[hellmouse]

I have been lurking on The Americans sub on Reddit and found this essay someone wrote about Philip, focusing in particular on the events in Rififi. In particular, the author does a deep dive on the phone call between Philip and Elizabeth in that episode and what it shows us about his character. 

Essay: The Americans: Philip Jennings’s Identity: Rififi

Quote

"By beginning at The Americans’s present, in 1987 (season six), it is possible to retrospectively analyse the character-arc of Philip Jennings, assessing the key-events both prior-to and during his life as an operative within America in order to develop a holistic overview of Jennings as a husband, father and spy."

The main thing I've been thinking about since reading it is the author's perspective on Philip being a husband, a father and a spy, and how those three roles are particularly complicated whenever Kimmy is involved, as she is at in the conversation between Philip and Elizabeth at the very beginning of this episode. The phone call at the end is a very different conversation and it's also made me think about how many episodes in Season 6 have had those kind of bookend conversations between them. It's like an undercurrent of electricity that is never totally gone, even if they're apart the whole episode. 

Anyway, the essay is a thoughtful perspective on Philip and I think some of the posters here also might enjoy it. I guess I need to register on Reddit so I can give feedback there too!

Original Reddit thread with some comments:  Philip's Identity: Rififi Conversation (spoilers)

[sistermagpie]

That was a great essay--I especially love the stuff about the framing where Elizabeth starts off suffocated but then has room to breathe when Philip calls, and ultimately he's the one in the tight frame as he assumes that stress. That was cool!

But yeah, Kimmy is such an interesting character in that she's just so blatantly a stand-in for a daughter. She's not like Paige in a lot of ways but just being a kid is enough and it seems like she's developing in a more healthy way than Paige is. The fact that Philip sleeps with her this season is like him paralleling Elizabeth a bit, that is, he's spent all this time trying to give her the independence he couldn't give Paige and then he almost takes it all back for Elizabeth's sake. But he doesn't.

He also stops being he father, though, since he sleeps with her. Of course Kimmy never saw Jim as a father, exactly. In some ways Jim was the character where Philip got to be a kid himself because Jim, by definition, was immature. It was after running out of Kimmy's "like a teenager" that Philip remembered the sex training he got as a kid--the kid he never really got to be. But even while he was being immature Jim on the inside he was mature Philip, watching over Kimmy and trying to guide her. He  did a good job, but sleeping with her was almost giving up that role, recognizing her as a woman, literally, with whom it was no longer completely wrong to sleep with, and then letting her go.

It's interesting to compare it to Paige/Elizabeth and Paige/Philip this season. It's interesting how Kimmy actually seems to have some real insight into Philip as well as Jim while Paige seems to get him not at all.