Philip: The Defector, And Then A Question Mark

[Erin9]

You are so right: Kimmie saw Philip/Jim. She saw he was stuck, but that he had a lot of potential. She saw it without him having to hit her with a sledgehammer to see it ( a la Paige). 

Paige has mostly seen Philip as the more laid back parent, and in her eyes, the failed spy. (Ugh!) It’ll be interesting to see what her perspective is tomorrow, knowing a bit more about him now in terms of his sparring capabilities and ability to use sex for info. And whatever else she might learn. 

[hellmouse]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

He also stops being he father, though, since he sleeps with her. Of course Kimmy never saw Jim as a father, exactly. In some ways Jim was the character where Philip got to be a kid himself because Jim, by definition, was immature. It was after running out of Kimmy's "like a teenager" that Philip remembered the sex training he got as a kid--the kid he never really got to be. But even while he was being immature Jim on the inside he was mature Philip, watching over Kimmy and trying to guide her. He  did a good job, but sleeping with her was almost giving up that role, recognizing her as a woman, literally, with whom it was no longer completely wrong to sleep with, and then letting her go.

In the same episode where he sleeps with Kimmy, he also spars with Paige. I wonder if in some way that is a similar reaction. He'll always be her father, of course, and is not going to relinquish that role. But there is a shift where now he initiates sparring with her. He doesn't have to work very hard to physically control her. It's a side of himself that we have always known but Paige has never seen. It's still not clear to me whether he walked away thinking she was well-trained or in over her head. They haven't really talked since then, nor has he talked about her to Elizabeth.

After sparring with Paige, he ends everything with Kimmy, and tells Elizabeth what he's done. It's almost like his psyche rebels against mixing the role of father with the role of spy once sex enters the equation. He can be the father figure friend/spy with Kimmy but he can't be the father figure turned lover/spy with her. Not even for Elizabeth. 

40 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Paige has mostly seen Philip as the more laid back parent, and in her eyes, the failed spy. (Ugh!) It’ll be interesting to see what her perspective is tomorrow, knowing a bit more about him now in terms of his sparring capabilities and ability to use sex for info. And whatever else she might learn. 

We haven't seen Paige talk about sparring with Philip. I assume she doesn't know he went to Chicago to help with the Harvest operation. So she is really in the dark about her father. I wonder what the dynamics will be when the three of them are together. Is Paige still Elizabeth's spy-apprentice and will she see Philip as the third wheel? Or will Philip and Elizabeth unite as parents, putting Paige in a primary role of daughter? 

[Erin9]

I didn’t get the impression Philip thought she was well trained. He said “not bad.” I really thought he meant : not good (enough). He controlled her without even trying. After over 3 years. I figured he thought she was in over her head. He didn’t seem impressed to me. 

Paige’s own reaction is telling: she thought she would have performed better too imo. 

It was a strange choice to have Paige and Philip not really interact after the sparring. We haven’t seen much of her in general actually. She had more screentime earlier in the season, I think. 

The interaction between the 3 should be interesting. 

[sistermagpie]

Actually I think Paige does know he was in Chicago because Elizabeth assured her he was all right. No idea how she feels about it or whether she understands she wasn't good enough to be useful. 

But I've thought a lot about how weird it is that he and Paige really haven't interacted at all after that sparring scene. I can't figure out what it meant to their relationship. 

Also hard to quite understand his "not bad." She doesn't touch him at all but she kept trying? And he doesn't say it in an encouraging way you'd expect him to in other situations.  Like remember him as a driving teacher. He says it under his breath while walking out. I almost wonder if he feels like he should say it but can't make it believable.  Or if he's saying it to emphasize how far you have to go to actually be halfway competant. Like it wasn't bad for some girl doing self defense. Or that's what Elizabeth's been telling her.

But they didn't follow up the scene with Paige trying to get better or asking Dad for help or telling Mom about it and wanting better training. Elizabeth and Claudia don't focus on it at all and instead focuson drinking as if her fighting was great and she just has to learn not to punch guys out. Paige does pause for a second before going in, maybe thinking she'll be in trouble? So does she feel lied to when she's not? We've had so much sparring and after that scene. ..nothing. 

Is Paige grossed out both her parents now? Does she want answers about their relationship? Does she think she and mom are the spies here? Or she is too? It seemed like she was rejecting the spy life. Does she think she's like Philip now? Like she thinks he quit like she did? I expect she'll see them kill offensively this wel

[Plums]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Paige does pause for a second before going in, maybe thinking she'll be in trouble? So does she feel lied to when she's not?

My take on that pause before entering is that she seems super tired and is shoring herself up to enter the apartment with her game face on for the Russian Culture Club, and she feels that way because she now has a much better sense of how much they've been keeping from her after Philip completely kicked her ass by barely moving and without even breaking a sweat. When she sparred with Elizabeth at the beginning of the episode, Elizabeth worked herself up in it and Paige even got a hit in. Now Paige knows that Elizabeth was never even coming close to what she's actually capable of. I think she pauses before going in because she's over it now, knowing she was lied to. 

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, Plums said:

When she sparred with Elizabeth at the beginning of the episode, Elizabeth worked herself up in it and Paige even got a hit in. Now Paige knows that Elizabeth was never even coming close to what she's actually capable of. I think she pauses before going in because she's over it now, knowing she was lied to. 

Yeah I feel like Elizabeth's lessons are practically designed to make Paige feel strong. They simulate fighting where Paige is always on the offensive punching and kicking and moving. The only defense is really blocking it seems and Elizabeth is obviously not beating her the way she could. 

With Philip she's just helpless. Punches and kicks miss and then she's pinned.

[sistermagpie]

So in the ep thread for START I mentioned how weird it is that Father Andrei says he knows only their Russian names which are Nadyezhda and Mischa. It's so weird that he uses different versions of their names. We know the whole reason he knows their real names is because he performed their wedding where they both used full names.

And that reminded me how this is very common. there's a reason fans always think of Elizabeth's Russian in the full version and Philip's in the shortened--it's what we always hear. Claudia awkwardly uses Elizabeth's full name in S1, Elizabeth uses it when she reveals her name to Philip, it's the name she gives to Paige, it's in the wedding. Her mother I think at least once uses it in a recording to make a point (it's in the subtitles as that I think).

So of course you could just as easily ask "Why always full version?" for Elizabeth as "Why always short version?" for Philip. And there I think it's more straightforward. We know Elizabeth is more standoffish. It's believable she'd be more sensitive about someone using a more intimate form of her name, that she'd put herself forward as more serious. You just can't imagine anybody using the short form without permission.

With Philip, though, especially with this scene capping it off, it seems more significant somehow. Off the top of my head, Irina calls him Mischa--which of course she would. Yet *he* calls *her* Irina--the full version of her name (at least when they speak English--in flashbacks he calls her by a shortened version). It's the name he gives to Paige. The bullies call him even more affectionate forms to taunt him--Miha and Mishenka. And now here's Father Andrei who really has no business using the more friendly form of his name (he's betraying the guy, after all!) using it while he doesn't use his wife's. Even his son is also Mischa because it's meant to echo his name.

So there's two times we hear his full name. At the wedding and when Martha asks his name. He first says, "It's Philip" and when she clarifies she wants his *real* real name he said, "It's Mikhail. But everybody calls me Mischa."

Which is interesting because it's on the one hand American/English. "Everybody" doesn't call him Mischa. People who know him well enough would. It's not like in the US where you say "Everybody calls me..." to indicate that you are *only* called that and consider it polite or friendly if the person uses that name. So you could say that Philip is trying to give her the intimate form of his name in terms she can understand.

But then, there's nothing stopping him from just calling himself Mischa. He did it with Paige. It's almost like here for the first time he goes for the formal name and then deflates to the usual form. So we've got really only his wedding and his self-introduction to Martha where he gives his actual name.

Here's my theory about that. I think it's significant (even if it's accidentally so--it works!). The time of one's life when "everyone" would be more likely to call you by your short form is when you're a child. Philip wasn't very old when he left the USSR, but as a KGB officer he certainly would have earned the respect of not being considered a child. But I think the constant use of the name is in line with the frustrating lack of backstory on Philip. Elizabeth had an almost overdeveloped idea about who she was as a young recruit--some of it was false, but she clung to it just the same.

When I think of Mischa I got into my head something I remember a professor of mine saying about the character of Jo in Dickens' Bleak House. Jo was an tragic urchin and the teacher said, "Poor Jo has nothing. Not even an "e" to his name." That made me somehow think of Mischa--he doesn't even have a full first name.

My theory is it's fitting because Philip is that he really doesn't have a sense of self. He's unformed because it seems he never got the change to figure out who he was. Even here in the last scene Elizabeth says if they'd stayed in Russia she can imagine herself managing a factory--suggesting she may have really thought about that when watching the movie. She also at one point said she'd have liked to be a doctor. But when she imagines what Philip would have done she's not sure. He's obviously very talented, but there's no grown up version of Mikhail who comes to mind. No obvious career. Even in his speech to Stan Philip says he's just a failing travel agent now...but then he guesses he's not. Well, no, he's not. Just like a few weeks ago he was on a KGB op. And he's made it clear all season that this isn't some expression of his true self at all. He feels stuck there and wants to do good in the world.

That's why I think that at least it's significant when he does use his full name. When he gets married he knows he's doing the right thing. That's Mikhail--the guy he was in Russia making an adult choice as his adult self. Likewise I think he tries that with Martha, another time when he went up against the system to protect her. He tries out his whole name there but then it almost sounds like he loses confidence and still can't be that man, so he's back to the truncated version.

[sistermagpie]

I have to say, my heart's been really warmed by things I've read in various places where people talk about Philip as their favorite of the MVP. Not because I need him to be voted "best character" or whatever but especially given his less than interesting storyline with the travel agency I like that he was seen for what he really was.

That also made me think how from the beginning of course everyone's pointed out that the Jenningses are reversed from the very traditional sex roles--Elizabeth is the hardliner who puts her Cause above everything and Philip is the one who's softer and more passive and puts family first.

But in the end I like how a lot of the story has Philip quietly sort of saving things just by "putting in the effort" as Henry said or picking his battles and stubbornly standing his ground. It's a great tribute to those qualities, so often associated with the "Mom" historically--the angel of the hearth or whatever sexist trope that was.

I guess I could just easily believe, especially with the whole travel agency storyline, that Philip would get overshadowed by Elizabeth's non-stop carnage and spy missions but no!

[Umbelina]

Why hasn't ONE SINGLE REVIEWER asked about Philip's childhood and how he got into the KGB?

Seriously folks, someone do it.

I'm still so irritated that Philip, who had by far the more interesting childhood, still has every question about who is was and how he became who is was left unanswered.

Meanwhile, Elizabeth's back story is complete.

So fucking annoying.

[sistermagpie]

37 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I'm still so irritated that Philip, who had by far the more interesting childhood, still has every question about who is was and how he became who is was left unanswered.

My god, yes. Elizabeth's life isn't one-note but it is fairly stable. The commitment to duty and self-reliance is always there. Her life with her single mom was rough but stable, with the main disruption being Mom's illness when she was 14. We never had to wonder why she joined the KGB since she was always so gung-ho about it.

Meanwhile, Philip...wtf? He's living even farther out in the middle of nowhere but somehow came to the attention of the KGB. Apparently this was due to his academics? But we don't have details. We know nothing about his relationship with anyone, including his own family. He committed murder at 10 but we don't know any fallout from that. Don't see anything about his working at the commune (another detail Elizabeth's life didn't have). Nothing about PRISON CAMPS. No explanation or glimpse of he and his brother receiving death glares from strange men on the street--what was that about? Doesn't actually seem like people would routinely glare at the children of prison guards then. His father died but we don't know how or what happened then. Don't know any surrounding details about him being chosen by the KGB or Directorate S specifically. Philip doesn't even remember the Colonel's name.

On one hand it seems like they somewhat wanted to recreate their family experiences with the kids: Paige's life was dominated by her difficult mother whose approval she always tried to win. Paige ultimately broke away (and had a father's influence to help) but will probably always feel her judgment.

And Henry will be an adult realizing that he never knew his own family, like Philip said about his. Only with Henry we understand what that means. With Philip is just means the only family member he ever thinks about ever is the father who died when he was 6 and had a different job, it turns out.

[Umbelina]

Yes, and what did his father do?  Was he a prisoner first, and then a guard?  Were those bloody boots stolen from a prisoner he killed?  What happened to his mother?  Who is this brother?  How did he EVER get the hell out of Siberia?  BTW, not a lot of great schools near Gulags in Siberia, so WTF?

[Plums]

One thing I've been thinking about recently that makes Philip feel like even more of a tragic character-

I've been re-watching these episodes in season 5 where we get the whole "oh actually, Henry is a super genius, and he's taking advanced math classes and wants to go to this elite prep boarding school" And just comparing his experience with his father's. When Mischa meets Philip's brother in Moscow, and he's having dinner with the family, his brother says that Philip was very smart, the smartest student in his school in fact. We know from Philip's conversation with Gabriel about his father that the KGB recruited Philip, when he was still a teenager, because they were always looking for talented people, and particularly emphasized that Philip was talented. That's in response to Philip assuming they recruited him because his father was a loyal member of the organization as a prison guard. When he found out (and was dumbfounded that) Henry was excelling in math, he mentioned offhandedly that he had been good in math. I wonder if he even understands how intelligent he was. 

It's just so heartbreaking to me, to think of the disparity there. Philip probably showed just as much promise as Henry at his age. And what did Henry get? He got a scholarship to an elite prep school where he gets to delve into and develop whatever interest he has, be it academic or sport, whatever. If Henry were really from the family he always thought he was from, the sky would be the limit in terms of the opportunities his intelligence and drive would get him. What did Philip get for his intelligence and drive? Recruitment by the KGB straight out of high school, presumably with no other viable options to improve his life presented to him. There may have been more of a choice for him in terms of the type of service he'd ultimately join, and out of all those options he chose the most elite and intensive one, but. He had to potential to be so many other things, he just never had the opportunities. And never even knew he didn't have the opportunities. What Aderholdt told Father Andrei applies so devastatingly to Philip. He was meant for better things.   

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Plums said:

It's just so heartbreaking to me, to think of the disparity there. Philip probably showed just as much promise as Henry at his age. And what did Henry get? He got a scholarship to an elite prep school where he gets to delve into and develop whatever interest he has, be it academic or sport, whatever. If Henry were really from the family he always thought he was from, the sky would be the limit in terms of the opportunities his intelligence and drive would get him. What did Philip get for his intelligence and drive? Recruitment by the KGB straight out of high school, presumably with no other viable options to improve his life presented to him. There may have been more of a choice for him in terms of the type of service he'd ultimately join, and out of all those options he chose the most elite and intensive one, but. He had to potential to be so many other things, he just never had the opportunities. And never even knew he didn't have the opportunities. What Aderholdt told Father Andrei applies so devastatingly to Philip. He was meant for better things.   

Exactly. The big difference between the two is when Henry starts showing promise a lot of people show up to help him explore his potential. Iow, they want him to get the most out of it that he can. It's all about him. (Again, another reason why it was so frustrating to me when people seemed to instead read the story as being about how Henry had always been a genius and his parents didn't notice because he was completely neglected blah blah blah.) 

With Philip it was about what Philip could do for the State. Which isn't necessarily all bad. Philip was an extreme, but it's not inherently bad for there to be some responsibility for a person to use their gifts to help others or their country. America's really about the individual--and that can lead to greediness and callousness. I think we see that on a grand scale in the world. But in Philip's case he was seen *only* a tool for the State. 

Henry doesn't even have to use his greatest gifts if he doesn't want to. He could prefer to do something that he's not good at at all but he enjoys more. Philip, it seems, didn't even know what it felt like to live your bliss or whatever that phrase is. He worked from the time he was a kid. He handed his entire identity--mentally, physically and spiritually--to The Work because that was what was important. Then he wound up in another job he didn't like that he didn't choose for himself.

[Umbelina]

The KGB was probably the most incredible job possible for Philip to get in the that world.  It was a huge honor, and frankly, allowed him to get out of that hell hole Tobolsk, Siberia.

Yes, he didn't have any of the choices and opportunities Henry had, but neither did anyone else in the Soviet Union. 

On top of everything else, he got to live a pretty nice life in America, at least the day to day parts of it.  He had all kinds of food, the electricity always worked, he had clothes, cars, his own complete home, not a room with people eating in the halls, and no privacy at all.  He line danced, he went to BBQ's and movies and had a cool car, access to SO much that we take for granted, but Philip certainly wouldn't.  It wasn't perfect after it became perfectly clear to him that the "Cause" was a bunch of bullshit, and he still had to do his job with the KGB.  Still, I think Philip's life was much happier than it would have been in Siberia, especially in the Gulag town.

Anyway, after playing around in the Americans Part Two thread, it's become very clear to me, that, of all the characters' possible fates that the writers left completely open-ended?  I see Philip as having one of the happiest outcomes, if Claudia or Arkady's boss or other Coup members don't simply kill him that is.

I think he will be OK, I think he will finally divorce Elizabeth, reestablish his close relationship with Henry, and even with Paige (in or out of prison Paige.)  I think he will remarry, and go live in a beautiful place outside of the Soviet Union, and he will adjust.  He's always been so resourceful and adaptable, he's never really been dogmatic.  If not for his obsession with Elizabeth, he would have bagged the KGB and USSR LONG ago anyway.  In 1991 he will finally be able to do that, without defecting.  He has some business experience and skills as well.  I think he'll be able to make a living.

[Umbelina]

Speaking of Rhys though, for anyone who subscribes to Hulu for The Handmaid's Tale or other shows?

His wine show is on Hulu!

I see why his mother liked it, and I thought Mathew was joking when he said they were bombed early in the morning and shooting could be problematic because of that.  He really is adorably drunk at times in this, and also very funny.  It's fun to watch.

[Erin9]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The KGB was probably the most incredible job possible for Philip to get in the that world.  It was a huge honor, and frankly, allowed him to get out of that hell hole Tobolsk, Siberia.

Yes, he didn't have any of the choices and opportunities Henry had, but neither did anyone else in the Soviet Union. 

On top of everything else, he got to live a pretty nice life in America, at least the day to day parts of it.  He had all kinds of food, the electricity always worked, he had clothes, cars, his own complete home, not a room with people eating in the halls, and no privacy at all.  He line danced, he went to BBQ's and movies and had a cool car, access to SO much that we take for granted, but Philip certainly wouldn't.  It wasn't perfect after it became perfectly clear to him that the "Cause" was a bunch of bullshit, and he still had to do his job with the KGB.  Still, I think Philip's life was much happier than it would have been in Siberia, especially in the Gulag town.

Anyway, after playing around in the Americans Part Two thread, it's become very clear to me, that, of all the characters' possible fates that the writers left completely open-ended?  I see Philip as having one of the happiest outcomes, if Claudia or Arkady's boss or other Coup members don't simply kill him that is.

I think he will be OK, I think he will finally divorce Elizabeth, reestablish his close relationship with Henry, and even with Paige (in or out of prison Paige.)  I think he will remarry, and go live in a beautiful place outside of the Soviet Union, and he will adjust.  He's always been so resourceful and adaptable, he's never really been dogmatic.  If not for his obsession with Elizabeth, he would have bagged the KGB and USSR LONG ago anyway.  In 1991 he will finally be able to do that, without defecting.  He has some business experience and skills as well.  I think he'll be able to make a living.

I agree with most of that. 

I do think he and Elizabeth will stay together. I thought that felt established by the entire finale, but otherwise, pretty much. (I know we totally disagree on about all of that. Lol But also they’d have to actually marry for real to divorce.) 

He’s smart, adaptable, has loads of skills. He’ll channel it into something useful and good, I think. Philip made it clear that was what he valued- making a positive difference. He’ll have options beyond spying and travel agenting anyway. 

Whether Philip leaves Russia later- not sure. He is a patriot, cares for his country/people—regardless of the name of it. Hard to say. Though he can’t go anywhere that would send him to the US. 

If anyone fixes things with the kids, it’s him. Being optimistic, I’ll say they both do, but realistically- we know Philip will put a ton of effort into it given any chance at all. And he always made more of an effort with them. That said- I think Elizabeth changed a lot this season. She has a lot of regrets. So I think she’d really try too given the chance. It just might be more of an uphill battle. She is stubborn though. Lol 

I figured the KGB offered him his only way out of severe poverty. Thanks for confirming. And it would have been an honor. Like anyone- he would have liked being wanted, appreciated, valued, and having an opportunity to really do something useful/good as well. I’m sure that’s how it was sold to him. 

I can’t imagine Philip has any real regrets about America. Despite him saying he had a shitty life to Stan- we know he liked and loved parts of it. His kids. Elizabeth. Working electricity! Line dancing. Food.....The job was fine when he felt it was doing good. After- not so much, of course. Still had to better than Siberia. It was still a hard life though. Nothing easy about becoming someone else, leaving your life behind, and doing this job....

[kikaha]

23 hours ago, Plums said:

 If Henry were really from the family he always thought he was from, the sky would be the limit in terms of the opportunities his intelligence and drive would get him. What did Philip get for his intelligence and drive? Recruitment by the KGB straight out of high school, presumably with no other viable options to improve his life presented to him.

There you see one big difference between a relatively free society and a totalitarian one.  Orwell based 1984 on the USSR.  He didn't exaggerate all that much. 

In the mythology of "The Americans," I don't believe Elizabeth and Philip divorce after going home.  That last episode, she surrendered to him, ideologically and emotionally.  A complete 180 on her part, that seemed to take place almost overnight. 

Someone in another thread described that change as magical: I agree.  But it's what the show gave us -- canon if you like -- and the entire final half hour or so strongly suggests to me P&E are meant to stay together forever.   

[sistermagpie]

In the START thread we were talking about those decisive moments and I was thinking about how Philip goes through a lot of them in S6 where he's finally putting together exactly where he stands. He makes some false starts by listening to stuff that really isn't him--like business books or capitalism or Elizabeth's arguments about how Kimmy will be fine. But then he rights himself. He knows he wants to be there for Elizabeth (not whatever thing Elizabeth is doing to please her handlers), to work with Oleg, to leave Henry behind, to be honest with Elizabeth. Those are choices he knows are right even if they're painful.

And that made me just think about him helping with Harvest vs. with Kimmy. When he pulls out of that Elizabeth accuses him of wanting to sleep with her etc., which is nonsense, and I think she knows why he pulled out and that she's throwing wild accusations at him. When he suggests, on the phone, Elizabeth just coming home (a choice that ultimately puts Stan on their trail) she says something like, "What happened to you?"

Philip often relies, imo, on Elizabeth to keep him grounded to the things he believes in, which isn't only family but also wanting to help the world. She twisted that by asking him to help with Kimmy but here she's talking about helping a fellow Directorate-S agent and her tone is very different. Of course part of that is just the tone of the conversation being softer, but I think that moment is very true--has Philip really stopped being a person who cares about nobody but his family? No, he's not. That's not who he is. Elizabeth's choice of words is important but not manipulative: "What's happened to you?" implies this isn't who he is. He is the same guy he always was--the part about him only caring about himself, obviously, is not true.

He's going to protect Elizabeth but I think he's also agreeing to her view of who she thinks he is. The Harvest job mirrors the Kimmy job in some ways in that Elizabeth wants Philip's help, is completely adamant about it, but when it actually goes down she realizes that it isn't as smooth as she wanted to present it because here's Philip chopping somebody's head off. Watching him do that she seeing the same kind of lie she talked about with Kimmy, that it would just be this easy thing and she wouldn't be hurt. Now she can see that she is hurting somebody she cares about.

[Erin9]

I was thinking about Philip emphasizing to his kids to be themselves, which is so important. It's significant that there's no sense from Philip or Elizabeth what exactly he might have liked to have done otherwise.  And that he tends to get asked who he is. There are certain things we're clear on: love and protection of family, love of country, liking American things, appreciation of progress- ie not being so afraid of change, he likes doing things that he believes are good and useful (hence why travel agenting was a bad fit- even if the expansion had gone well- he was still in a rut focusing on it), obviously a man not afraid of risk. 

But, it's really not that surprising to me that he doesn't have a strong sense of "what might have been" or exactly who he was. Given his poverty level, the country he lived in, and getting plucked out of school by the KGB only to sign onto the Directorate S program shortly after, probably all before he was 20 (assuming that I think he's Elizabeth's age- if not exactly, certainly close enough)- really not many people would have that defined sense of self at that age. Especially if you're turning yourself inside out to literally become another person with a different history. Elizabeth, I think, would be more of a rarity where she was so sharply defined by her mother AND being one of the hardcore KGB officers. 

Side note: I wish more Americans fan fiction existed (or maybe I just haven't found it). I know this show was more of a critical than fan fave show- which I don't really get, but still, this show seems like it would be the type that would lend itself to tons of FF. Even before the ending.

[sistermagpie]

24 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

But, it's really not that surprising to me that he doesn't have a strong sense of "what might have been" or exactly who he was. Given his poverty level, the country he lived in, and getting plucked out of school by the KGB only to sign onto the Directorate S program shortly after, probably all before he was 20 (assuming that I think he's Elizabeth's age- if not exactly, certainly close enough)- really not many people would have that defined sense of self at that age. Especially if you're turning yourself inside out to literally become another person with a different history. Elizabeth, I think, would be more of a rarity where she was so sharply defined by her mother AND being one of the hardcore KGB officers. 

Yeah, thinking back I think he often even responds evasively to the "Who are you?" comments, sometimes without realizing it. Like saying, "My people are dying in Afghanistan." There's also the flashbacks which are more impressions than giving a sense of the person who's having them. Elizabeth's flashbacks almost never stray from whatever lesson is being imparted in them. Philip's are almost all hazy experiences. Paige asks him two questions, iirc, in the scene where they talk about his past. She asks what his dad did for work, which he answers...but he's wrong. (Elizabeth also tells a false story about her father, but in her case she's been told the truth.) Then she asks if he liked where he grew up and he just says they didn't think like that. He knows there were things there that he liked, then talks about his father.

Really, the only concrete thing we hear about pre-Philip Mischa is that he was the smartest kid in the school. When Mischa Jr. asks his grandfather about his impression he says, "He was a boy like you" (iow, he was nobody yet--just a boy). Even Irina tells Mischa in her tape to him something like she has to believe he's a good man--she doesn't know he is. When Philip asks if the KGB came for him because of his father Gabriel denies it, but only says they were always looking for talented people. He doesn't say exactly how Philip was talented. (Elizabeth is told she was chosen for Directorate S because of her fear of surrender--obviously not the whole story but it's two lines about the same subject where Elizabeth's defines her and Philip's notably doesn't.) Baklanov says that "whoever he was" they trained it out of him.

In fact, the only real formative experience he really seems to have is the one with the bullies. The only other story he tells about himself is his mother getting his pay from the foreman--and that's more a story he's using to illustrate who his mother was in relation, maybe in a way that relates to Elizabeth. The bully story is basically about survival, a feeling that probably dominated most of his life and blocked everything else out.

It does seem really interesting that they even threw a reference to this in in that last moment. Elizabeth can picture an alternate life for herself, whether or not it's accurate. It's just another example of her knowing or defining who she is--she even corrects herself, knowing that she would have wound up managing whatever factory she worked at. Interesting that in that moment it's like she describes herself as having been given expanded possibilities via this life while Philip's potential is in the life he didn't have. Of course, at the point of that scene both their lives have become full of potential.

[SusanSunflower]

Elizabeth has been the "golden child" and Phillip -- for all his intelligence and dedication and skills -- has not ... I think this will what "tears them apart"  when Elizabeth's golden status hits a reality check or several.  She's beautiful and amazing ... but now her ability to adapt will be judged ... the automatic approval will not transfer (and I was never sure if both Claudia and Gabriel did not play on Elizabeth's vanity) ... I've said before, this transition will probably be very hard on Elizabeth's self-concept, particularly as "better than Phillp" 

We don't (and won't) know how this intra-KGB civil war will play out ... I'm - doubtless -- over influenced by LeCarre and Tinker-Tailor which allowed that some folks to be allowed to get away with a lot because of their "cred" and serious "hear no evil, speak no evil, speak no evil" loyalties.  I don't think that Elizabeth has allies and backers** ... and I have little doubt that Claudia (whereever she is) does ... Elizabeth has been living a luxurious life for 20 years on the KGB's dime ... Claudia ...well, not so much.  Gabriel may be able to be helpful in discrete relocation to some virtual pensioner existence in the boondocks ... I think Elizabeth will be too radioactive/ politically charged to do "charm school" duty any time soon. 

 

** this is an important deficit ... Martha and Micha had Gabriel -- however conflicted -- to be their champion.  P&E because of their illegal operative status were not (as far as I can imagine) in a position to develop "friends" within the community (the Connor's would have qualified, Tuan would have qualified) .. to testify push some to shove as to their their worthiness .and their adherence to the ideology .. obviously YMMV. 

Edited June 17, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Loandbehold]

On 6/17/2018 at 12:17 AM, SusanSunflower said:

Elizabeth has been living a luxurious life for 20 years on the KGB's dime

I wish I could remember where I read it, but I was surprised to find out that while the KGB basically set up the illegals w/ "seed" money, after that, it was up to the agents to earn a living. Their

cover activities (to the extent they were engaged in any) were paid for, but not daily life. That's why the travel agency was failing even though Elizabeth was still "working" there.

[sistermagpie]

I was thinking more about the whole "who are you" aspect of Philip and how he never really got a chance to know who he was before he willingly agreed to become anyone the KGB needed. But I was thinking how in the last season we see him sometimes trying to find himself and not being successful, imo. There's the time where he almost allows himself to fall into the old pattern of letting Elizabeth convince him to follow orders and do a mission and it'll be fine before he realizes that he knows he doesn't think it's right. But at the same time he's not the guy who just cares about himself either. He's "stuck."

In the whole "American Dream" story he just seems so out of control. It's not just that he's not able to fix the problem and is letting people down and feels bad. There's also those moments where he's clearly trying to act like a salesman and it's so hard to watch because he can't do it. It's just desperation, not coming from any place true in him. We even see him reading a book before doing it, showing that this isn't coming naturally to him. (Likewise, I think, when he fires Stavos for under-performing.) He's trying to "be" Philip Jennings, but Philip wasn't him any more than Jim was. He was a cover that was created for specific purpose and that purpose wasn't to help this guy express his true self. He thought he could be him because he represented the part of his life that didn't involve murder and manipulation, but that wasn't him.

What I thought, too, though was that in S6 the times when Philip *does* seem to be in his element is when he's spying. Some thought or expected that Philip would or should be off his game in S6 because he'd gotten out of practice but there's not much evidence of that. (The one time I think it could be pointed to is when he's covering for Elizabeth going to Chicago, but that's also part of his general inability to cope at that time--like when he can't keep the car on the track. He's continued to lie about Elizabeth's whereabouts all this time so he's not out of practice in that, he's just distracted that weekend.)

Once he gets to Chicago, though, he's calm and focused. He's not happy about what he's doing, but he's no longer unsure or out of control. He's tense, but calm behind the wheel of the car. Elizabeth seems very right when she says that having Philip there makes her feel like they have a chance. When they walk and talk about her plan he sees the street like a professional. When they get to the garage, it's him who glimpses the ax and knows just what to do with it. He hates doing it, but it was his idea and he did it efficiently. 

Then in Jennings, Elizabeth when he walks into a trap (again, not a sign that he's rusty--Elizabeth walked into the same type trap back in S1) and recognizes it he again stays calm even when he's escaping it. 

The other thing he does in S6 where he's sure of himself and seems calm and comfortable is when he's working with Oleg. He doesn't want to spy on Elizabeth, but when he's arguing for why he's doing it or why it's important, he's seems to be absolutely speaking for himself.

It makes me feel like part of Philip's problem is that he's still fighting who he is. He says that EST makes him think about parts of himself that he doesn't usually think about and there probably is *more* to him than just the spying part, but there's a reason he made it through the training well enough to get assigned to the most important country, did his job excellently for almost 2 decades and is still great at it. Even in the milk flashback, well before he's in the KGB he's already doing this stuff--leaving the milk as a lure to get the bullies into tunnels where they'll split up and waiting in ambush to kill them. Rather than worry he's a monster he probably ought to accept that he is what he is--but that doesn't mean he has to use his powers for what he sees as evil. The things that seem to actually "be" Philip after his experiment in S6 seem to be his skills and thinking as a spy, his desire to help the world/ his country and his being naturally loyal to people he cares about.

[Plums]

12 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

In the whole "American Dream" story he just seems so out of control. It's not just that he's not able to fix the problem and is letting people down and feels bad. There's also those moments where he's clearly trying to act like a salesman and it's so hard to watch because he can't do it. It's just desperation, not coming from any place true in him. We even see him reading a book before doing it, showing that this isn't coming naturally to him.

I agree with everything you said in the whole comment generally, but one thing I wanted to draw attention to, is that in episode 1 of season 6, before we were impressed with this image of him struggling and not actually succeeding at his go at living the American Dream full time, he did seem to have it together at the travel agency. Like, that sales talk he gives in the premiere to the office about making a personal connection with clients didn't seem desperate or cringe-y at all the way the book speech did. There was active employee engagement, and he was emphasizing a genuinely good sales strategy. But I felt like the point he was making was very reminiscent of how he engages in spycraft. Make a personal connection with your target for them to buy what you're selling. It was a natural lesson in manipulation coming from him. In particular, rewatching it, the point where he says "We're not brochures, we're people. All it takes is one conversation to produce a breakthrough" makes me think of the garage scene.

[sistermagpie]

14 minutes ago, Plums said:

I agree with everything you said in the whole comment generally, but one thing I wanted to draw attention to, is that in episode 1 of season 6, before we were impressed with this image of him struggling and not actually succeeding at his go at living the American Dream full time, he did seem to have it together at the travel agency. Like, that sales talk he gives in the premiere to the office about making a personal connection with clients didn't seem desperate or cringe-y at all the way the book speech did. There was active employee engagement, and he was emphasizing a genuinely good sales strategy. But I felt like the point he was making was very reminiscent of how he engages in spycraft. Make a personal connection with your target for them to buy what you're selling. It was a natural lesson in manipulation coming from him. In particular, rewatching it, the point where he says "We're not brochures, we're people. All it takes is one conversation to produce a breakthrough" makes me think of the garage scene.

Ah yes! Good point, you're totally right. Also I realized I didn't mention the line dancing, another place where he actually looks happy. He's even taking the employees with him like it's a fun thing they all do. So he does also seem happier in an office where he's personally connecting with the employees--totally the opposite of his later feelings when he's had to fire long-time employees.

Also the line dancing in itself is something he enjoys like he likes playing sports etc. 

All of which fits together. Somebody who wants a personal touch with employees and clients, wants to do something in life that helps people, and somebody who enjoys simple pleasures like dancing games, and a fancy car. 

[Erin9]

IA- with both @sistermagpie and with @Plums addendum to Philip as a travel agent. He was good at it- it was the expansion and its fallout where he had a problem. 

The only thing I want to add about Philip being a travel agent is it didn’t check the box that I suspect working in Transportation didn’t check for Oleg: it wasn’t doing something deeply useful/good for his people/the world. Both men were highly motivated by that.

When they quit spying they had no option but where they wound up. Philip was generally a good TA. Oleg, being a smart guy, was I’m sure good at his new role. Arkady, Stan and Elizabeth all alluded to it or directly said something along those lines: these guys really do (or used to) want to do something that truly matters. And next thing you know, both are taking enormous risks to do something they deem important. 

I think Philip thought being a travel agent would be enough. But it wasn’t. It wasn’t destroying him like spying was, and he was good at it over all and liked working with people, but it wasn’t his passion either.

To draw Elizabeth into this, I feel like whatever P/E do going forward, it would be doing something good and useful together for their country/the world. That’s something they have in common. Their through line if you will. And as smart and skilled as they both were as spies, I would think there would be plenty of uses for those kinds of skills, just in a less destructive way for both of them. Whatever that might be. Because that is who they both are. And for Philip there would definitely be something personal about it. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

When they quit spying they had no option but where they wound up. Philip was generally a good TA. Oleg, being a smart guy, was I’m sure good at his new role. Arkady, Stan and Elizabeth all alluded to it or directly said something along those lines: these guys really do (or used to) want to do something that truly matters. And next thing you know, both are taking enormous risks to do something they deem important. 

Yes--it does seem like if Philip was, for instance, just being a travel agent he'd be good at it. Then he apparently followed this "you're supposed to grow" idea, or else just wanting more and taking out this loan. Then the money became something he needed more desperately and it was no longer just selling things to people that they wanted it was having to meet a high quota, which pits the seller more against the buyer, etc. Suddenly it's not just about providing a service etc. Some people are challenged by that; Philip isn't. He likes cool things, but even in S5 he was saying that he didn't actually need anything else. But left on his own he probably didn't have anything else really to do.

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

I think Philip thought being a travel agent would be enough. But it wasn’t. It wasn’t destroying him like spying was, and he was good at it over all and liked working with people, but it wasn’t his passion either.

Yes, I think at first he was probably just relieved to not be hurting people. Then he felt stuck, like he wasn't doing enough. Maybe thought that meant he should expand but of course that was never going to work since that's not what he wanted. Somebody who's that easily persuaded by someone telling him that he's needed is somebody who wants to do something for others. In S6 he's going up against important KGB people and his own wife, which threatens his marriage, but he's still more bummed out by the Travel Agency situation.

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

To draw Elizabeth into this, I feel like whatever P/E do going forward, it would be doing something good and useful together for their country/the world. That’s something they have in common. Their through line if you will. And as smart and skilled as they both were as spies, I would think there would be plenty of uses for those kinds of skills, just in a less destructive way for both of them. Whatever that might be. Because that is who they both are. And for Philip there would definitely be something personal about it. 

Ideally they would both have time to really think about what they might do and I agree, it would be good if they were doing things together since they work so well together. They wouldn't necessarily have to have the exact same job, but if they had complimentary jobs that the other person can see as important and get interested in and talk about. Of course they'd also both specifically have very valuable skills regarding understanding the US and speaking English perfectly, but Elizabeth isn't going to just want to help some Russian corporation make money and after his experience in S6 I think Philip would know he didn't want that either. After a lifetime of doing a job someone handed to him he'd probably want to really think about it before taking another one.

[Erin9]

I think Philip thought being Philip Jennings for real was the answer to everything. Only it wasn’t. Because he’s not Philip Jennings, American Travel Agent at the end of the day. He fantasized about it awhile back, then lived it....but it isn’t who he is. It was probably incredibly depressing to realize something he thought would work for him didn’t.

In some ways he’s still the man he always was: one who wants to do good, help his country, be useful. Only now he asks questions, thinks things through, considers what he thinks is right for himself and his country. But that is who he is. He probably accepted that working with Oleg. He knew he was doing the right thing for himself and his country. And was willing to accept what consequences came with that. Even risk blowing things with Elizabeth. He was being  true to himself. 

I don’t see Philip or Elizabeth having any real interest in just making money. They need to do something meaningful. 

[Plums]

whatever happens with them in the future, I'm kind of stuck on this idea that Philip will adjust reasonably well to the fall of communism and the dissolution of the USSR, while it will absolutely break Elizabeth. I think it's going to be a very tough road ahead in their marriage, and he's going to have to become an even greater support than he already is. That, plus the unequal situation they find themselves in back in Russia regarding family- Philip will develop a relationship with Mischa and also has his brother's family to lean on. Elizabeth has no family left as far as we know. Her kids are on the other side of the world and may or may not decide to have a relationship with her. She's going to be incredibly depressed for a long time. So yeah, I agree that they'll need to find something useful and meaningful to do very quickly, just because I don't see what else is there for them. I don't know what other skills they have though that could apply to something outside the intelligence apparatus that would fit the criteria of a grand, meaningful contribution. 

[Umbelina]

IF they both live, I see Philip being thrilled with the downfall of the USSR, then appalled by the criminal free for all that results, and then?  Getting the hell out of there completely.

I can also see him traveling back to Tobolsk to finally put together the scattered and terrible memories he has of that place, possibly even getting some clarity from his brother about those years.  I think he will definitely become very close to Misha, they seem very much alike.  Resourceful, thoughtful, consider their actions, do the right thing when needed, and also both in need of answers. 

I think Elizabeth will be in crisis, both about what she gave her life to, because she will have 4 years to endure the mess of the USSR before it collapses, and more importantly, when it falls, all that she did, everything from the sex to the murders to losing her children?  Will have been for nothing, and worst of all, her own actions helped ensure the downfall of the USSR.  She'll be in pieces.  Soon after the collapse she'll also be entering Peri-menopause, with it's own set of emotional issues, and physical changes.  I see her end as suicide or alcoholism. 

Can Phillip hold her together? Possibly, or possibly he will stay with her even when she completely falls apart, and suffer through hoping for better.  I really don't see them lasting though, because I think Philip will finally realizes he's been miserable for most of his life, and he wants to stop that.  He'd rather enjoy his children, and finally give up on the woman who certainly aided and assisted his horrific life for years.  He only did it for her, he would have been out of that life long ago, if not for her.

I don't think he'll go looking for love, but I think it will find him, maybe when he's at an Italian beach with his now adult kids meeting him for vacation.  He's lovable and loving in a real way, a giving way, and there will be a woman who loves him back for who he is, not who she expects him to be.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Umbelina

[Erin9]

I tend to think Philip will be okay with the fall of communism too. He’s had plenty of issues with the centre and the government. It’s a reason he liked Gorbachev- the hope/promise of change. So- I think he’s the type who sees something is not working and will be fine with the idea of trying something else. He wants to see a government that actually works for its people imo. I’m not sure if he’ll be thrilled exactly. But he’ll be okay with it. I could see him visiting Tobolsk too. 

I see him having relationships with all his kids at some point. He tried hard with Paige and Henry. That, I would think, would not be lost on them. He and Mischa seem to be a lot alike. 

He’ll find something useful to do. I tend to think he and Elizabeth would make it. 

I have trouble deciding exactly how Elizabeth would feel about the fall. She changed so much in the end. Plus, how she’ll feel after 4 years of seeing how it doesn’t work might lead to a different reaction. A few seasons back, I would agree  she’d be deveststed. Lost. Now, I’m not sure. And since I think the fall was inevitable and caused for many reasons, I don’t think Elizabeth should blame herself for it. It was coming one way or another imo.  

I think she’ll generally have a harder time adapting to going home than Philip. She doesn’t have the family he does- though she’s part of Philip’s family. So, she can be a part of his. 

And who knows- Irina’s gone. And Mischa  couldn’t possibly have had much of a relationship with her. She was in Canada. Maybe Elizabeth would get along well eith him. 

She’d probably find reconciliation with the kids more difficult than Philip would - but I’ll be hopeful on her ultimately pulling it off. 

But I tend to think she’ll ultimately do just what she told Philip they would do: adapt. They both will. 

Claudia? She’ll be destroyed by the fall imo. 

[sistermagpie]

20 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I think Philip thought being Philip Jennings for real was the answer to everything. Only it wasn’t. Because he’s not Philip Jennings, American Travel Agent at the end of the day. He fantasized about it awhile back, then lived it....but it isn’t who he is. It was probably incredibly depressing to realize something he thought would work for him didn’t.

 

Yeah, he basically realized that Philip was never real. He was always powered from within by the whole guy. I thought that in the pilot, too, when he talks about just being the people they're pretending to be for real. It was a healthy instinct for survival but also a fantasy of escaping into a role or a persona instead of integrating or facing everything. (I think Henry might have this same impulse--it's a good thing and a bad thing.)

 

20 hours ago, Plums said:

whatever happens with them in the future, I'm kind of stuck on this idea that Philip will adjust reasonably well to the fall of communism and the dissolution of the USSR, while it will absolutely break Elizabeth. I think it's going to be a very tough road ahead in their marriage, and he's going to have to become an even greater support than he already is. That, plus the unequal situation they find themselves in back in Russia regarding family- Philip will develop a relationship with Mischa and also has his brother's family to lean on. Elizabeth has no family left as far as we know. Her kids are on the other side of the world and may or may not decide to have a relationship with her. She's going to be incredibly depressed for a long time. So yeah, I agree that they'll need to find something useful and meaningful to do very quickly, just because I don't see what else is there for them. I don't know what other skills they have though that could apply to something outside the intelligence apparatus that would fit the criteria of a grand, meaningful contribution. 

Philip does seem to have some advantages to adapting. First, he's just more adaptable and willing to change himself to fit in (while also always feeling a little bit apart) while Elizabeth's tried to keep a death grip on the person she was at 19. Also, I think he's always seen Elizabeth as something to care for so while he'd be devastated if he wasn't able to keep her from self-destructing I think supporting her would give him something to live for. Like how Samwise had something to focus on on the quest that was actually possible in taking care of Frodo. Plus both of them have been taking care of each other for a long time and so might both step up to be there for the other by force of habit. In some ways they've been here before. 

It's also probably important to remember that even Soviets who did cheer the end of the USSR were pretty traumatized by the end of it because it was a huge thing even if you thought it was good. Sometimes it was even more difficult because they didn't think they should mourn it. Philip was a believer in the ideals of the revolution--although we don't know how his feelings might have changed in the years since he got there. But I think he'd absolutely hate the kleptocracy more than anything. That kind of goes right to the heart of what it seems he was fighting for--it's like yet again he'd identify a true threat to his people and it's the fucking Russians. So that would definitely be hard for him--but he does also seem equipped with the black humor to potentially role with it, especially if he's finally got more people to go through it with him rather than being totally isolated and pretending to be American.

I also tend to think Philip would want a relationship with his family and that he'd get along really well with Mischa. I can't figure out exactly what Mischa's relationship was with Irina but since he does seem a lot like Philip and he's an adult I can see Elizabeth wanting to be there for him. Of course, there's also the possibility that he and the nephew are painful reminders of Henry, but it seems like Mischa, especially, is so different that he wouldn't be a constant reminder. He is more like the son they might have had if they were in Russia--an ordinary Soviet kid who grew up, did his military service, got a job in a factory. If Elizabeth did feel warmly towards him and not threatened by him because he seemed more an extension to Philip than a symbol of Irina that might also give her something to be strong for after the fall.

It's hard having no idea what relationship Philip even ever had with his brother, but I can't help but think that he, too, would ultimately be helpful for him. I do imagine, like Umbelina does, that he'd fill in a lot of gaps for him. I can picture Philip listening to stories about himself as a kid that are completely surprising and unremembered by himself. Elizabeth might also actually get to have a friend if she gets along with her sister-in-law. We don't know anything about her, but in the one scene we see there's nothing about her that makes it seem like Elizabeth would have any problems with her. She's not Young-Hee, but that might not be what she was looking for in this situation. Young-Hee was someone she was friends with when she was pretty happy.

According to Philip he grew up being taught that family was important and his brother reached out to Mischa because he was family. His son was curious about Philip so he knew that he existed. He was never forgotten by them. So they could very believably be the kind of people who do give Elizabeth a Russian family as Philip's wife and even in their way consider Paige and Henry family as far as their parents are able to talk about them. (Elizabeth had even earlier mentioned that she intended to take Philip's family name in Russia.)

Edited June 22, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Erin9]

Philip Jennings “not being real” put exactly that way is so interesting to me. When Oleg approached him about spying, I mostly thought about it from the POV that Philip would have to go back to spying,  have to spy on his wife of all people, and it would be highly dangerous. 

What I didn’t really think about is: the real Philip Jennings would of course never have been asked to help Oleg, much less cared what he had to say or care that much about the fate of the USSR. Because PJ was American. 

I wonder if it was kind of like getting ice water dumped over his head to realize he could never truly be Philip Jennings period. He wasn’t going to stop caring about the fate of his own country. And he would answer the call to help if asked - and if he believed in it. I never thought Philip stopped caring to be clear. He cared almost too much. He wanted to really help that badly. But I wonder if Philip fully understood how impossible it was to ever really be the guy he’d pretended to be for so long. 

Philip is more adaptable than Elizabeth. But Elizabeth is in the best place she’s ever been in to adapt. I tend to think she’d get on well with Mischa. She didn’t like Irina. So it probably works well for her that she won’t be seeing her. But she could separate Mischa from Irina, and that’s important. 

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Claudia? She’ll be destroyed by the fall imo. 

She'll destroy Elizabeth first.  Bank it.

Yes, both Claudia and Elizabeth will be destroyed by the fall.  They have both given every single thing to the cause their entire lives.  EVERYTHING, their bodies, their souls, their minds and hearts.

All for nothing.

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Philip does seem to have some advantages to adapting. First, he's just more adaptable and willing to change himself to fit in (while also always feeling a little bit apart) while Elizabeth's tried to keep a death grip on the person she was at 19.

Philip was always willing to look for the truth in situations, in everything really, both spying, with his kids, and in his marriage, and especially in himself with EST.  People who examine their reasons and motivations always adapt better.  Elizabeth never cared about the truth or self-examination, her motivating force was the be a hero to the cause, to not be a traitor like daddy.  She didn't WANT to look deeper than that, she's the perfect soldier, just following orders, whatever they are, no matter how disgusting, no matter how nonsensical.  She didn't allow personal feelings to interfere, she didn't WANT to question the validity of the USSR, she turned away.

Until she didn't, and then she royally fucked up.  By not killing Claudia she created danger for herself and her entire family.  Claudia was the only one who could expose her to the Coup, and not only did she confess to Claudia *ummm, WHAT?* she then let her live, just to make sure Claudia could tell all the other powerful Coup people that Elizabeth and Philip were the ones who betrayed them, and the Soviet Cause.

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Philip was a believer in the ideals of the revolution--although we don't know how his feelings might have changed in the years since he got there. But I think he'd absolutely hate the kleptocracy more than anything. That kind of goes right to the heart of what it seems he was fighting for--it's like yet again he'd identify a true threat to his people and it's the fucking Russians. So that would definitely be hard for him--but he does also seem equipped with the black humor to roll potentially role with it, especially if he's finally got more people to go through it with him rather than being totally isolated and pretending to be American.

Philip stopped "believing" long ago.  He listened, he examined, he observed.  They killed the wheat guy who was just trying to save the world from hunger.  They sent back Anton.  They endlessly killed innocent people and all for generally bad outcomes, which he paid attention to while Elizabeth ignored them, like the entire William story, and then the Soviets USING the deadly poison on Afghanistan.  The soviets didn't bother testing that submarine part and Philip and Elizabeth contributed to the death of those sailors.  It was endless.  He personally SAVED Martha, because he knew the KGB wouldn't bother.

Philip ONLY stayed because of Elizabeth.  He would have defected long before this show began, and certainly made an honest and sincere effort to convince Elizabeth to defect in the very first episode.  He was a realist, not a delusional idealistic robot like his wife.

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

but it seems like Mischa, especially, is so different that he wouldn't be a constant reminder. He is more like the son they might have had if they were in Russia--an ordinary Soviet kid who grew up, did his military service, got a job in a factory. If Elizabeth did feel warmly towards him and not threatened by him because he seemed more an extension to Philip than a symbol of Irina that might also give her something to be strong for after the fall.

Misha is hardly a "normal soviet."  He joined protests, he gave speeches about the kind and persecuted Afghanistan people.  He tried to stop the war.  He made it all the way to America, a successful escape, without the skills to do that, he didn't even speak other languages.

He's very much like Philip.  A quiet man who tried hard to do the right thing, and had the courage to do what most could not.  Escape the USSR.

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

He wasn’t going to stop caring about the fate of his own country. And he would answer the call to help if asked - and if he believed in it. I never thought Philip stopped caring to be clear. He cared almost too much. He wanted to really help that badly. But I wonder if Philip fully understood how impossible it was to ever really be the guy he’d pretended to be for so long. 

Again, the difference between some idiotic romantic notion of what could be, and looking reality in the face and accepting it.  People in the soviet union were lacking basic needs, like medicine, like food, they couldn't make lids that fit on jars for dangerous bioweapons.  In the USA, though he certainly didn't agree with many government policies here, for example the stand on Apartheid. or arming the middle east to take down Russia?  He liked his life, aside from the spying.  He met nice people, average people, many of whom also disagreed with the same stuff he did.  They could say that out loud, publish books about it, join protests, without fear of *much* reprisal.

Newspapers openly criticized Reagan and other leaders.  The USA got rid of Nixon, protested the Vietnam War, had plenty of food for most, people chose their own jobs in general, yes there was poverty in both countries, yes things were "wrong" but again, he saw that things were wrong in both countries, but at least in the USA "the electricity worked all the time."

He came from Gulag town, the worst of the worst in the USSR.  He probably did read Solzhenitsyn.  His life there was so terrible he's blocked it.  Honestly, when it came down to it, he was fighting for THAT?  For a country that gave him a life of horrors so terrible that his mind has blocked them?

He listened to the Russian couple, he paid attention to reality.

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Philip Jennings “not being real” put exactly that way is so interesting to me. When Oleg approached him about spying, I mostly thought about it from the POV that Philip would have to go back to spying,  have to spy on his wife of all people, and it would be highly dangerous. 

What I didn’t really think about is: the real Philip Jennings would of course never have been asked to help Oleg, much less cared what he had to say or care that much about the fate of the USSR. Because PJ was American. 

I wonder if it was kind of like getting ice water dumped over his head to realize he could never truly be Philip Jennings period. He wasn’t going to stop caring about the fate of his own country. And he would answer the call to help if asked - and if he believed in it. I never thought Philip stopped caring to be clear. He cared almost too much. He wanted to really help that badly. But I wonder if Philip fully understood how impossible it was to ever really be the guy he’d pretended to be for so long. 

Ice water--or also maybe also getting why retiring from spying wasn't making him as happy as it should have. (He probably had plenty of other things he guessed were the reason before that.) It's not that he wanted to get back into it, but from what he said in S6 his problems didn't just come down to non-spy life having problems too--but he might have not realized the biggest part that he was missing until he was willing to help Oleg. Not just that, but he was even more committed to helping him when he saw Elizabeth so against it. She represented the resistance to Gorbachev and that was bad for her and for the country.

 

5 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Philip is more adaptable than Elizabeth. But Elizabeth is in the best place she’s ever been in to adapt. I tend to think she’d get on well with Mischa. She didn’t like Irina. So it probably works well for her that she won’t be seeing her. But she could separate Mischa from Irina, and that’s important. 

I always thought she took the Mischa news as well as she did in part because Philip brought it to her, invited her into it. She could still do that with him in person, since there's no more Irina and it's not like Philip knows the kid either.

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Philip was always willing to look for the truth in situations, in everything really, both spying, with his kids, and in his marriage, and especially in himself with EST.  People who examine their reasons and motivations always adapt better.  Elizabeth never cared about the truth or self-examination, her motivating force was the be a hero to the cause, to not be a traitor like daddy.  She didn't WANT to look deeper than that, she's the perfect soldier, just following orders, whatever they are, no matter how disgusting, no matter how nonsensical.  She didn't allow personal feelings to interfere, she didn't WANT to question the validity of the USSR, she turned away.

Oh yeah. And so much of Elizabeth's whole attitude in S6 is even more like that than she was before. Constantly looking to the past and romanticizing it and getting herself to hate America etc. Convincing herself that Paige is even coming along with her in this, as if she's any less American than she was when she was in Pastor Tim's youth group. Taking sides in the coup seems to be the first time Elizabeth ever really tries to apply the ideals she was supposed to be fighting for with what she's doing--and that was at Philip's insistence.

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Philip stopped "believing" long ago.  He listened, he examined, he observed.  They killed the wheat guy who was just trying to save the world from hunger.  They sent back Anton.  They endlessly killed innocent people and all for generally bad outcomes, which he paid attention to while Elizabeth ignored them, like the entire William story, and then the Soviets USING the deadly poison on Afghanistan.  The soviets didn't bother testing that submarine part and Philip and Elizabeth contributed to the death of those sailors.  It was endless.  He personally SAVED Martha, because he knew the KGB wouldn't bother.

I meant more that Philip believed--and I think completely still believes--in the *ideals* that he was supposed to be fighting for. We see him act on those in his individual life by trying to protect people like Martha and Kimmy. He just saw that the USSR wasn't furthering those ideals and neither was he by following orders. I think he did hold on to a lot of the same values that he always had--he just realized that following them meant making choices for himself in every situation.

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Philip ONLY stayed because of Elizabeth.  He would have defected long before this show began, and certainly made an honest and sincere effort to convince Elizabeth to defect in the very first episode.  He was a realist, not a delusional idealistic robot like his wife.

He would have defected in the pilot but I think that honestly would have been giving up himself if he did--or if he had been on his own and done that. I think especially by the end after EST etc. he had more of an understanding that "doing it for Elizabeth" didn't just mean doing stuff to make Elizabeth happy with him to keep her because he as in love with her for whatever reason. It seems like part of his whole self-understanding journey is about being able to recognize where Elizabeth reflects things he wants and values in himself and where she doesn't so he can do what she would have done but won't just do things for her.

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Misha is hardly a "normal soviet."  He joined protests, he gave speeches about the kind and persecuted Afghanistan people.  He tried to stop the war.  He made it all the way to America, a successful escape, without the skills to do that, he didn't even speak other languages.

He's very much like Philip.  A quiet man who tried hard to do the right thing, and had the courage to do what most could not.  Escape the USSR.

Sorry, I just meant normal in terms of his upbringing as opposed to Henry and Paige who were American and so had such different experiences from their parents. Not that Mischa as an individual was basic--and his own circumstances were even different to start with given his two spy parents. But I do still thinking that looking at him it would be easy to see him as an example of the type of kid they might have had if they were a couple in Russia--an exceptional kid, but then, they're pretty exceptional themselves as well.

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

He came from Gulag town, the worst of the worst in the USSR.  He probably did read Solzhenitsyn.  His life there was so terrible he's blocked it.  Honestly, when it came down to it, he was fighting for THAT?  For a country that gave him a life of horrors so terrible that his mind has blocked them?

He listened to the Russian couple, he paid attention to reality.

I do think he wanted to fight for it, honestly. Or more accurately, to fight for the people there so it wasn't like that. That was never so clear as with the wheat plot where he let himself buy into some supervillain fantasy about the US when there's a guy making a far more logical case against the USSR. It was all summed up with, "Why can't we grow our own wheat?" Elizabeth and Claudia want it to always be WWII with invading Nazis (and pay no attention to Stalin). Gabriel and Philip were ready to look the real enemy in the face.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I do think he wanted to fight for it, honestly. Or more accurately, to fight for the people there so it wasn't like that. That was never so clear as with the wheat plot where he let himself buy into some supervillain fantasy about the US when there's a guy making a far more logical case against the USSR. It was all summed up with, "Why can't we grow our own wheat?" Elizabeth and Claudia want it to always be WWII with invading Nazis (and pay no attention to Stalin). Gabriel and Philip were ready to look the real enemy in the face.

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

But I do still thinking that looking at him it would be easy to see him as an example of the type of kid they might have had if they were a couple in Russia--an exceptional kid, but then, they're pretty exceptional themselves as well.

Sorry, quoting somehow messed with the format.

To the first quote:  We are probably saying the same thing.  What I meant was Philip saw he could fight the good fight, for people, for justice, just as easily in the USA, actually FAR more easily.  He saw the simple truth.  The ideals of Marx and even Lenin when he was at his best?  While good, and worthy and frankly very Star Trek idealistic?  DID NOT WORK in the USSR.  It had perverted itself into something even worse than the obscene capitalistic system.  What's more, he recognized that people in the USA had worth, had ideals, fought for things as well, usually without murdering and honey trapping.

Elizabeth refused to do that.  The only friend she ever made was Young Hee, another person from another troubled country.  Why?  Because in her soldier/eye on the prize/just following orders way?  She had to hate the "enemy" and call them frivolous and silly and mock their motivations and their privileges, as if simply by not suffering daily they were not only weak, but insignificant.

To the second quote:

It's hard to imagine what they would have been like without being undercover KGB agents living nearly all of their lives in the USA.  It's hard to imagine what their kids would be like as well.  My guess is they would be a bit similar.  For example, Elizabeth would be "rah rah USSR!" an Philip would be "why the hell can't we grow our own wheat" and looking at the corruption in the KGB (assuming they were still chosen as KGB agents, but stayed domestically based, whatever the initials were.) 

Elizabeth would probably be something like an interrogator at LeFortovo prison, since she's ruthless and uber patriotic and obviously has no problem killing people or torturing them.  She'd probably be an incredibly STRICT mother and talk a lot about sacrifices and duty.  Her kids would either hate her guts or admire her and strive to be like her.

Philip probably wouldn't rise far in the KGB, he'd hate it, but it's not as if he would have a choice about what job to take.  He's skilled with languages, so he might help train Directorate S people with English, or he could end up a lowly KGB prison guard like his daddy.  I think other than hating his life, he'd be about the same kind of dad he is in the USA, just sadder, and perhaps drunker.  I think he'd read a lot, possibly even risk reading forbidden books, try to escape, try to remember his childhood without the benefit of EST, try to figure out who he is and why that is.  Or, he could be the guard that shoots people in the head like Nina.

The KGB was still a good job to have.  They probably wouldn't be sharing bathrooms and kitchens with other families.   They would probably be able to shop at the private government stores, and while not having a great selection of food, still, would be far better off than most Soviets. 

I'd guess a two bedroom flat if they were super lucky, probably due to Elizabeth.  One bedroom would have been glorious compared to most.  If they had kids, they'd either share a bedroom or sleep in the living room.  The girl would clean.  Both kids might get a chance to go to college, but they would not be allowed to choose what they would "be" or what they would study.

 

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

He just saw that the USSR wasn't furthering those ideals and neither was he by following orders. I think he did hold on to a lot of the same values that he always had--he just realized that following them meant making choices for himself in every situation.

Again, I think we are saying close to the same thing, but maybe not.

He didn't need to be in the USSR to do good things.  He didn't need to stay at the Travel Agency if he was OUT of the KGB.  He might work for better relations between Moscow and Washington.  He might choose to do any of many things to better the world.  He didn't have to be KGB to live a worthwhile life, indeed, he probably had a better shot at doing that in the USA, or in some other country.  He realized that a LONG time ago, but he was stuck.  Because of Elizabeth.

ETA

Philip was good at math too, he could just end up doing top secret accounting stuff for the KGB, even spy agencies need accountants.  ;~)  I think he'd dream of the USA though, and freedom, and want to leave as soon as the USSR collapses.  Elizabeth might even agree with him by then, since the corruption at that point was horrific, and her Bolshevik dream already crushed..

ETA again.  His brother might be living with them as well, perhaps even Elizabeth's mother.  I don't think Philip would like leaving his brother in that roach trap noisy one small room "apartment" of his.

Edited June 23, 2018 by Umbelina

[Nash]

Both P&E are highly dangerous and work best as a team but I think there are a few key moments that reveal something.

 

P kills the rapist-defector in e1 in a moment and without hesitation. Not for the mission but because of what he did to E. He goes after the creep in s1 off the books. He is, I think, revulsed by his role with Kimmy. 

 

He makes it brutally plain to Paige that her training is a joke. In e1 when he tells her the creep is to big to fight she simply doesn’t understand that he’s not talking about himself. 

 

It’s pretty plain that without him, E wouldn’t have escaped from Chicago and he is the only person who could have got them out of the carpark without bloodshed. 

 

He’s also a stone killer. But I think that were this a series about NATO agents in the USSR, we’d be pretty much unconcerned about the morality of the bodycount - this is not Le Carre where George Smiley consoles himself that “they were brutal, so were we but we had the lesser brutality”. This series was hyped up espionage violence at the sharpened up, sexed up end of the tip of the spear. If we were upset by the killing and manipulation of innocents, we should have stopped watching a long time ago.

 

So. I actually like Philip. He is a dangerous and manipulative killer but you can see that it’s damaged his soul. And in between that he’s tried to do the right thing. He needs E and she him but I think he’s more honest about it. As for defection? Yes, he’d have done that because at that point it was the only thing that might offer survival for E, the kids and him. He thinks beyond the mission his soul is damaged but not lost. 

[Umbelina]

Mathew being mostly serious in this one, normally he jokes around a lot.  ;)  He also talks about some things we have been talking about in the all episodes threads.  His wanting out of the KGB, his childhood, etc.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Umbelina

[Umbelina]

 

New interview!

[sistermagpie]

Coming from the Philizabeth thread, I had been thinking about what arc we can actually see on the show for Philip--obviously there's the whole arc of how "What I'm doing could be better. It sucks. OMG, it sucks. It sucks so bad. It's killing me. etc.) But I think the other things is that he's somebody who when we meet him is not a whole person and then becomes one.

I wouldn't give the showrunners credit for being experts on the Soviet mind or anything, but from what I've read people in this generation really lacked the ability to see themselves as individuals. The erasure of self was central to the whole idea--and somebody growing up in the shadow of WWII would be getting that more than ever. Elizabeth, I think, succeeds so well because she embraces that so much. She, too, does have impulses in the other direction. It just usually comes out in her love life--with Gregory and Philip she dared to want something for herself. With Gregory she was able to put the two things together. They loved each other but bonded over how that didn't matter compared to the bigger issues. Philip was far more often in conflict with the Cause. But I think he understands and sees as far normal than we do the way she behaves.

Philip and Elizabeth would not grow up with the ability to think about themselves the way a Western person even at that time would take for granted. The show is I think intentionally showing that at times, like when Philip warily asks Elizabeth if the psychologist asked her about her dreams--they have no idea. Or at least Philip thinks he doesn't. He doesn't realize that EST is therapy, but that seems to me to be the main arc of Philip's character. Not just that he questions the authority of the Centre, though that's part of it--he was able to do that from the start of the show. It's him developing some ability to see himself as a unique individual that I think is really his big change. Elizabeth thinks it's about feelings but that's not really it, as Philip says. He thinks about parts of himself he hasn't thought about. He considers his actions in a new way--why did he really kill those guys as a kid, what did he feel about it and what did he learn from it? He even starts thinking of his father differently. Instead of accepting the story he was told he starts wondering about him as a man. If he was a guard, what kind of guard was he? Was he a sadist? Did he enjoy that? Was he sacrificing for his family? Who was he as an individual?

Elizabeth thinks about her mother a lot, but mostly as an example she must follow. She handed her daughter over freely because it was the right thing to do, not because of fears or emotions she had as a human being. Her father was either a hero who died for the State or a coward unworthy of mourning.

And I feel like it's intentional that Philip starts this arc from a place where he just wants to become Philip Jennings for real. At the start of the show there's no difference for him in being Philip Jennings for real or being "himself" now because there's no value in his actual identity--his real name, background, experiences. That can just be jettisoned for a safer life now. He'd have no reason to think they're even important. (Elizabeth thinks her past is important, but in a very specific context: she's protecting herself from the corrupting influence of the west.)

But I think that where Elizabeth's love for Philip makes her more appreciate every day life and things that are just what they are or are hers instead of belonging to the Cause, Philip's love for Elizabeth makes him want that authenticity. The Deal has always been one of my favorite eps and it's *all* about that. The Israeli agent spends the whole night needling Philip on not knowing who he is, not having any core sense of self. He asks if his children are really his children, is his face really his face. Later Anton will scream at him that he's not a man, he's a monster, that "whoever he was" they trained it out of him. And all that does get to Philip. It dredges up what seems to be his first honest expression of self. The Mossad agent might prefer the balmy Mediterranean but Philip likes the cold--a line accompanied by the sting of Russian music to indicate that this love is tied to his personal past. When he gets home (for the first time on the show, I think) he tells Elizabeth about a memory of swordfighting with icicles.

Then, of course, there's the fact that the main thing he seems to want his children to do is be themselves. How he seems to love times they stand up for what they want in the face of others not liking it and, on the flipside, how he seems so wary of institutions or people who want to mold them into their own image (the church, Pastor Tim or the boarding school). When the kid makes the decision he accepts it.

EST, then, continues to hammer on this idea of the authentic self and choices made for other reasons than responsibility or fulfilling a role. I remember someone on the group pointing out that in Dark Room he hears the speech about moving forward in the dark instinctively and the choice he makes his to marry Elizabeth in Russian under his real name. Over the course of the series he moves closer to Russia the place--not to the point of wanting to move there but in claiming it as part of his actual identity, even going so far as to rent a Russian movie in secret.

He's still honest about it. Elizabeth and Claudia seem to actually believe, that they're authorities on modern Russia in their meetings, but Philip just says to Oleg that he's been in the US for a long time and sometimes it's hard to remember home. But again, I think that's part of him getting to know himself as an individual. He is Russian, he cares about it, but he doesn't have a life there. But he's also not Philip Jennings from Pittsburgh. That's where I think it all leads in the last season. He needed to be clear-eyed to confront Elizabeth at the end since she herself was barely keeping her head above water when it came to caring about anything besides her orders.

I also think, though there's fewer scenes that deal with this explicitly, that Philip's not able to completely throw off his upbringing. He's more of an individual now, but that it's still part of his instinctual personality to sacrifice the one for the many and himself for his country and see Elizabeth's behavior as far more normal than I see it. Like I think I said elsewhere, he's able to want what Henry wants for Henry, but he also recognizes that he will never be Henry and never be the father that Henry would prefer or understand.

[Umbelina]

I see it differently.

Half of Philip's life has been spent in the USA.  I don't think he had fond memories of home, of course he would have a few, playing flying with his dad, sword fighting with icicles and his brother (whom he NEVER mentions.) 

Most of his memories though?  Would be bleak.  Gulag towns are bleak, he didn't have enough food, obviously clothing was an issue, since his dad brought home bloody boots *who knows, maybe his mother was going to cook the leather of them to make that soup Philip liked, it happened in Gulag towns.

Contrast that with his life and memories in the USA.  Unlike Elizabeth, he didn't immediately hate it, or say "there is a weakness in the people."  He enjoyed it, he found things to be joyful about, line dancing, buying cowboy boots, his children, playing racketball, running out for Pizza whenever the urge struck him.  In the USA he had a life without basic needs being unmet.  Plenty of hot water, electricity that worked, any food in the world he might crave, cars, and the freedom cars bring.  His children didn't need to make brooms, they played hockey, volleyball, liked school, had friends that didn't beat them up when they were walking a few miles home with a jug of milk.

Elizabeth closed her mind to anything good about the USA, and anything bad about the USSR.  That's how she coped with her horrible job (either that, or she was a psychopath, and I don't think that's the story the writers were telling.)  Philip?  Couldn't stand killing and conning and the endless lies. 

He was willing to go back to the USSR if it would keep his family together and allow him to get the fuck out of the KGB, and it's demands on his soul, but he didn't want to go there.  He, unlike Elizabeth, realized that there were other ways to work for a better world, and he also knew, from day to day life, that the USA way was better for the people.  It was certainly not perfect, and the leaders were assholes in both countries, but in the USA they/we have SO MUCH, things we take for granted, like not sharing a kitchen or a bathroom with 4-6 other families, like reliably having water, and heat, and stores full of food.

Elizabeth grew up in a city, and her mother had a party job.  They were not wealthy, but they had their own apartment.  Philip grew up in Siberia, he knew how much of Russia lived, he knew it in his cold feet, and empty stomach, he knew it in living in a prison town, and even though the show didn't bother to flesh out his story, he could not be unaware of the immense suffering nearby, certainly not by the time he left for the KGB, supposedly around 17.

He also didn't carry Elizabeth's family shame of "traitor" which effectively closed her fanatic's mind forever to anything positive about the USA. 

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Half of Philip's life has been spent in the USA.  I don't think he had fond memories of home, of course he would have a few, playing flying with his dad, sword fighting with icicles and his brother (whom he NEVER mentions.) 

Most of his memories though?  Would be bleak.  Gulag towns are bleak, he didn't have enough food, obviously clothing was an issue, since his dad brought home bloody boots *who knows, maybe his mother was going to cook the leather of them to make that soup Philip liked, it happened in Gulag towns.

But regardless of what his memories of the USSR were, that is where he was shaped as a human being. Especially watching season 1 I can really see that in him in the way he seems so constantly on-guard and imagining worst-case scenarios that he's preparing for. That makes sense given that we knew he grew up in a world that was full of threats. I think he totally would have grown up erasing himself as an individual because not only was that the culture he lived in, he always had more basic things to think about anyway. As he says to Paige when she asks if he liked it in Tobolsk, "they" didn't think like that. He didn't think about alternate lifes that he would prefer. He probably didn't even have the mental language to think like that. "It wasn't about what you liked it was about working hard and protecting your family." Likewise before EST I don't think he thought about his upbringing as training him to look at the world a certain way when he could have looked at it another way. Part of what he seems to be doing there is thinking about why he does things and how many of those things are him and how many are just defense mechanisms. He lives in the moment, from one threat to the next. (And even in the US he lives as a tool of the state so that mindset is still what he's living under.)

To understand himself he has to understand where he comes from, the good and the bad. His new understanding of his father doesn't give him a totally definitive answer that he wanted. But he now sees it as an important thing to know for himself, it seems, otherwise it wouldn't be bothering him. I think EST gives him a way to step back and think about why he's really doing things. For the first time he can even ask himself, like so many Americans naturally would, what he would really like to do. Sometimes it takes him a while to reconsider a choice, but he can still think about it. Of course, he's still choosing from whatever options come into his life, but limited choices can say a lot about a person. He did open himself to the US in ways Elizabeth never would and he is able to see good things in it and admit they're good things--he's very open about saying the USSR should be more like it in some ways. But along with accepting those things about himself he also has to accept the half of his life--all his formative years--in the Soviet Union. The things that were, as one of the showrunners once said, "bred into his bones."

That just made me remember how in the last season after he's had a terrible time in Chicago he thinks back fondly on his wedding and that gives him the direction to come clean to Elizabeth in the next scene.

Edited August 19, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

You don't have to ERASE your past to be happy in the present though.  You can accept it, as something that happened to you, and MOVE ON.  Now that you are an adult, you can make choices for yourself.

Only Philip can't, because the KGB owns him.  The big answer that I keep coming back to is that he's only owned because of his "love" for Elizabeth, and because she refuses to even consider leaving the KGB.

Of course he's always on guard, he spent YEARS training to always be on guard, so I wouldn't just put that on his childhood.  He's a spy, undercover, in enemy territory, being on guard is how he stays alive and out of prison.

Now, then there is the other question about WHY he loves you.  I've seen you say admiration for her, and wanting to be like her.

Nah, I don't think he admires her ability to kill and honeytrap, and I certainly don't think he wants to be LIKE her anymore than he already is through training.  I think it's because she's the only woman in 20 plus years he's been allowed to be real with, and even then?  Not really, until "My name was Nadezhdah."

Had Philip had a "Gregory?"  Let's call her Gwen.  This can be a Gwen.  

(had to gets someone who is as cute as Elizabeth, with hair too, ha, I needed a visual)

If Philip had an honest, loving, open relationship with Gwen, who shared his point of view, his goals, his humor, great sex, whom he admired, and trusted for 15 years would he have still loved Elizabeth?  Maybe, Elizabeth is incredibly beautiful, but I really don't think he would have.  He would love the one who loved him, shared his life, and that he could be Misha or Philip with. 

Sharing goals of course, he probably would have defected long ago, maybe even before Elizabeth deigned to have sex with him in order to become pregnant ala KGB orders.  Maybe that's when Gwen and Philip would have made their escape, before kids, or maybe Gwen would be pregnant and that would make Philip want to protect his child and get the hell out of the KGB.

I think loving Elizabeth was about the situation and her beauty, it wasn't about her really, she was his ONLY option.  Being able to not lie would be an amazing love potion, if that's all your life was, lies, lies, and more lies.  That's one reason Elizabeth was in love with Gregory for so long.

Because of who Elizabeth was, Gregory pretty much had to be a dedicated soviet convert willing to do anything it takes to make the world a better place, according to KGB orders.

Because of who Philip is, Gwen would not have to be those things, she could be supportive, open minded, fun, love line dancing, and willing to be Philp's true partner in any way he needed.  She would want a family, and she would do anything for that family, and for her husband.  Why?  Because that's who Philip really was, it's what he cared about, it's what he would give in return.

Philip never had his Gwen though.  All he had was Elizabeth.  So now, no family, no USA that he loved, but he will get the cold.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

16 hours ago, Umbelina said:

You don't have to ERASE your past to be happy in the present though.  You can accept it, as something that happened to you, and MOVE ON.  Now that you are an adult, you can make choices for yourself.

Exactly--I think that's what Philip is doing. He's learning to make choices for himself and in order to do that he has to understand how he's been making choices in the past. I think by the end of the show he has moved on from the person he was at the start, and the person he was as a kid. Everybody starts their choices with the person they are and the situation they're in. They can only make choices with in those limits. Philip loves Elizabeth and that's one of the things that influences the choices he freely makes.

16 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think loving Elizabeth was about the situation and her beauty, it wasn't about her really, she was his ONLY option.  Being able to not lie would be an amazing love potion, if that's all your life was, lies, lies, and more lies.  That's one reason Elizabeth was in love with Gregory for so long.

Elizabeth found someone with whom she didn't lie. Claudia admitted that she told the truth to somebody. Philip wound up telling some truth to Martha.

Just saying that while it was difficult for Philip to find somebody else it wasn't actually impossible. There were plenty of women in America he could have potentially met and who would have loved him despite finding out he was KGB, and covered for him, and happily defected with him. Even with slim pickings in those circumstances he could have found another choice other than Elizabeth. Either due to really bad luck or his personality, it seems he never found that or even seemed to need it much, despite having experienced a normal relationship with Irina who pushed him into a different life. For whatever reason, Philip was still pretty happily owning his choice of Elizabeth up until the end along with mourning the situation his choices led him to. I think that was also part of what the show wanted to say with the Martha story. Elizabeth lays that out hypothetically just as clearly as in the conversation with William. (Would he choose a life with a woman with those values and no spying if the kids weren't an issue.)

Edited August 19, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

Philip's comments about defecting in episode one.  I love this script thing, so I decided to look them up.  https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=the-americans-2013&episode=s01e01

(after they have to bring Timochev back to the house)

Well, if you're that worried about him, Maybe we could just defect ourselves. At least we'd be millionaires. Hmm? We wouldn't have to worry about going to jail And leaving the kids all alone. A lot of our problems would just go away.

---

(Later, in bed I think)

Look, maybe this is an Opportunity. Maybe this is the perfect time for us just to think about Living the life we've been living But just really living it. Just Being us.

What are you talking about?

I'm saying we might be blown. And I'm saying if they are watching us, We can't kill timoshev. I'm also saying we are philip and elizabeth jennings. We have been for a very long time. So why don't we get ahead of this And why don't we make the first move And offer ourselves to them? We could get a lot of money -- $3 million for timoshev, $3 million for us. We just get relocated, take the good life, And be happy.

Are you joking? Is this a joke?

No.

You want to betray our country?

Well, after everything we've done, I don't think it's such a betrayal. Defecting to america? America's not so bad. We've been here a long time. What's -- what's so bad about it, you know? The electricity works all the time. Food's pretty great. The closet space --

is that what you care about?

No, I care about everything.

Not the motherland!

I do, but our family comes first. So, paige and henry, uh -- What exactly is your plan? We'd have a great life because we would have money.

What would you tell them, philip?

The truth.

You swore. We swore we would never tell them! To let them grow up and live their own lives.

They're not to be a part of this. They're not to be a part of this. They will be american, and you can't stand that. I see it every day.

I'm not finished with them yet.

They don't have to be regular americans. They can be socialists.

They're not gonna be socialists. They can be trade-union activists. This place doesn't turn out socialists. To know that it was all a lie? They would never speak to us again, philip. And what are we even talking about? There would be no future for any of us. They would kill us all!

They'd never find us. They would never find us.

Have you looked in our trunk?!

He was a fool. He came back to give speeches. Left clues about where he was staying. We'd -- we'd be more careful.

---

(in the garage right before Philip kills Timochev)

Elizabeth: What's going on?

I'm taking him to our neighbor.

You are?

Yeah. I was gonna drive him out, hand him off further from home, But you seem to have taken the distributor cap.

So you were leaving me.

I'm gonna make a deal Where you don't have to talk to the americans if you don't want to, If you think that'll make you a traitor, But you will come with me and the kids. It won't be exactly what you want, but you'll adjust.

So you're just deciding for both of us.

Yeah, one of us has to.

Why you?

Because we're running out of time! Why can't we do things together?

Because I am a kgb officer! Don't you understand that, after all these years? I would -- I would go to jail, I would die, I would lose everything before I would betray my country.

Elizabeth beats him up, then Philip kills him, etc.  Combining that with the other dialogue in later seasons (during the William scenes, and of course during Gabe being infected, etc) and Mathew Rhys saying he didn't feel Philip wanted to go back to the USSR, I think it's pretty safe to say he never gave up on the dream of staying in the USA, and being "normal."

[sistermagpie]

29 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth beats him up, then Philip kills him, etc.  Combining that with the other dialogue in later seasons (during the William scenes, and of course during Gabe being infected, etc) and Mathew Rhys saying he didn't feel Philip wanted to go back to the USSR, I think it's pretty safe to say he never gave up on the dream of staying in the USA, and being "normal."

I think it was always safe to say that. I mean, the only way for Philip to have not given up on the dream would be if he had some actual desire himself to move out of the US and why would he have that? The kids are in the US, they're settled in the US. He didn't have any plans for what he'd do if he moved back there. I think it was important that he reconnected more with his Russian past/identity, but that's not the same thing as wanting to move there.

Frankly, I don't think Elizabeth wanted to be there either, but she'd never allow herself to admit it. (Oh, Breeland's been promoted? We can't go home now. Darn it!) Philip seemed much more realistic about how long he'd been gone and how much that made him a stranger to the country as it now existed. I think when Pastor Tim said that not making a decision either way was making a decision, and then Elizabeth wanted to stay, that Philip knew they were just going to gamble on not getting caught. (Also Pastor Tim had that line about how he missed certain things and people in the US but Argentina "felt like home" now. And that's Pastor Tim who's been there 3 years, probably with visits and might very well move back to the US just as easily.)

I was thinking more about why Philip would be so attached to Elizabeth since we don't get the kind of clear psychological layout we do with her and it occurred to me a big part of it might very well be how much she needs him. She denies it, but I look at her and can totally see her existing in the perfect sweetspot for Philip in that sense, the way she's so capable in some ways, so prickly and rejecting of care, but underneath so starving for it, especially in ways that he seems uniquely able to provide. (Now I'm picturing him seeing "As Long As (S)he Needs Me" in the musical version.)

[Umbelina]

Yes, and her mentor told her about loving his dog, and said "you love what you take care of" or whatever it was.  Philip has ALWAYS taken care of her.

I think you are right that Elizabeth probably really misses the USA as well, I don't think she wanted to leave either, and you are right, she would not and could not admit that to herself.

She's not going to enjoy the USSR as much as she thinks she is, it's already broke and a mess, but in a few years things will get much worse, and after that?  The dream is dead.  Frankly, I think she would have rather stayed in the USA, have electricity, privacy, and all kinds of fresh greens and vegetables any day of the year so she could make her salads.  She probably misses having own washer and dryer as well, not to mention many choices of laundry soap.  ;~)  Really good shampoo and conditioner are probably missed as well, and while she may adjust to lack of fashion, I bet she will sincerely miss comfortable well made and beautiful shoes and boots.  Oh, and the kids of course...

[sistermagpie]

From the Mr. and Mrs. Teacup Thread...
 

Quote

 

Umbelina: Except, Philip isn't really allowed to step out of the KGB box and even TRY to be himself, do something he would enjoy, say teach, or coach Hockey, or any of hundreds of other jobs he might want.

He still must maintain their KGB cover, the Travel Agency.  Yes, he made (common) mistakes, expanding too fast for example, but that doesn't make him a failure as a businessman or capitalist or mean that he would fail in anything else.  He's still trapped by Elizabeth's choices.

I think Philip, with his people skills, could succeed in several other US jobs, and be happy.  He has never had that choice, which is part of the reason he wants his children, both Paige and Henry, to have the freedom of choices.

 

I agree--I don't think the implication was at all that he would fail at anything besides spying. I thought the idea was best summed up with what he said to Kimmy when he was speaking as Jim, suggesting that he wanted to do work as a lawyer that was more helping people--I forget exactly how he put it, but I took that as Philip speaking for himself and starting to figure out what type of thing he would want to do. I do think there's a difference, for instance, between Philip and the father Henry refers to as having had failed businesses. That guy probably enjoys being an entrepreneur. That's what he likes to do for its own sake and bumps along the way are part of the package. I think if Philip really liked being an entrepreneur or a Travel Agent and felt this was really what he wanted to do he'd have been happy to meet with the guy because the guy's right, this wasn't some mark of fundamental failure on Philip's part. He did well with the Travel Agency in the past. It's not like Paige and spying where there's all these red flags that he really isn't suited for it and doesn't even really get it.

But if Philip really could choose his job, one that was really right for him, it probably would be something more in the area of helping people/improving the world. Like if he was a lawyer like Jim he really would probably prefer being in some area of law where he was defending the vulnerable to being a corporate lawyer because that wouldn't be the thing about the law that really drew him.

In S6 he says "none of this" (meaning the state of the world/people) has anything to do with him because he's quit spying but it's actually fundamental to his nature that he's not really able to do that so he'd be happier doing something more in line with that. That's why he's so vulnerable to being dragged back in time and time again. But the scenes where he's most sure of himself are usually when he thinks he sees the right thing to do to actually have a positive affect or do the right thing. We just see it come out in spying because that's how it comes into his life.

It's not like Oleg presents him with this situation and he knows it's bad for him but he's just so tempted to get into a wig or have a secret or be passing info. That's not the draw. The irresistible draw is the idea that this is going on and he can't not try to help. He feels responsible where many wouldn't. Same thing with the Kimmy thing. When he says to Elizabeth that "somehow" she got him back in, it was because he was vulnerable to the idea that he could make a real difference by doing this thing and it would be worth it. (And then he stopped when he realized Kimmy would be destroyed and he wouldn't actually be helping folks back home at all either.) That's what we see Philip compulsively do as himself, which is different from spycraft or salesmanship.

[Roseanna]

On ‎1‎.‎6‎.‎2018 at 12:51 AM, sistermagpie said:

So in the ep thread for START I mentioned how weird it is that Father Andrei says he knows only their Russian names which are Nadyezhda and Mischa. It's so weird that he uses different versions of their names. 

I have pondered about the menings of their names. Nadyezhda and Mikhail are originally Christian names. Nadyezhda means "hope" that is one of the main Christian virtues "faith, hope and love". "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the sign that the things not seen are true" (Heb 11:1) - wouldn't that describe Elizabeth's faith in Communism even if there is no sign that Communism in the USSR, if it's even ever possible to give "each according to their needs". Mihail means "WHO is like God" and is the name of the archangel in the Bible.

Elizabeth means "God is my vow" - also a perfect description of her loyalty to the cause. Philip means "horse-loving" - could it perhaps contain a reference to Philip II of Macedon, the father of Akexander the Great as the role as a father is so important to Philip? 

[Roseanna]

On ‎21‎.‎8‎.‎2018 at 3:25 AM, Umbelina said:

I think you are right that Elizabeth probably really misses the USA as well, I don't think she wanted to leave either, and you are right, she would not and could not admit that to herself.

She's not going to enjoy the USSR as much as she thinks she is, it's already broke and a mess, but in a few years things will get much worse, and after that?  The dream is dead.  Frankly, I think she would have rather stayed in the USA, have electricity, privacy, and all kinds of fresh greens and vegetables any day of the year so she could make her salads.  She probably misses having own washer and dryer as well, not to mention many choices of laundry soap.  ;~)  Really good shampoo and conditioner are probably missed as well, and while she may adjust to lack of fashion, I bet she will sincerely miss comfortable well made and beautiful shoes and boots.  Oh, and the kids of course...

I don't understand that kind of reasoning. If your country is in trouble, there is all the more reason to return in order help it.

If the most important thing in the world were to enjoy and have it comfortable, why wouldn't all soldiees become deserters?

What Elizabeth mostly misses is, besides her children of course, is probably the meaning she had in her life  which is shortly going to reveal as an illusion (although not yet, nobody could see four years ahead). The real question is if she can find a new, real meaning - and not again to fall in the trap of KGB/FSB.