The Vampire Chronicles: The Books

[Meredith Quill]

The show is kicking off with The Vampire Lestat - discuss the book here!

[paramitch]

On 6/27/2019 at 7:12 PM, SilverStormm said:

The show is kicking off with The Vampire Lestat - discuss the book here!

So this is evidently still in stasis, according to this:

https://variety.com/2019/tv/news/anne-rice-vampire-chronicles-hulu-dead-1203449088/

As someone who liked Interview, adored Vampire Lestat and Queen of the Damned, and respected Tale of the Body Thief I'm conflicted.

Because that's the extent of my feelings about the vamps -- I feel like the further she went in the supporting characters' backstory novels, the worse she twisted and conflicted their backstories. Take Marius, who I adored -- then her backstory novel makes him a monster, but she seems to think he's a hero. And of course same goes for all the male vamps, and I just felt like it killed the series, over and over. I did read on (after many years, in protest after hating Memnoch the [fucking] Devil), but I disliked all of them. Something happened to Anne and after Body Thief, for me, she almost seemed to be writing a different series. Friends of mine have told me since then that she refused editorial input during/after Queen of the Damned, and that's why, so who knows. But OMG the literary quality just plummeted.

And I'm not happy about the decision to incorporate the Mayfair Chronicles. The only one I liked (which was amazing) was The Witching Hour, but I hated all the rest, especially her wholehearted support of pedophilia (a 13-year-old girl seduces Michael at one point). And that's not the only instance -- the "Witching Hour" books (more than most of hers) are filled with pedophilia. And, aghgh... I just can't. 

I loved Rice at a certain point in my life, and she inspired me as a fiction writer before it all went so horribly wrong -- she had this Baroque, new and florid tone that was so wonderful to me, and so seductive, but I feel like her own trauma and losses (and fame) led to her writing works that are just not tenable or believable, or acceptable. 

If the show happens, I'll watch. But I'm not expecting great things. I'm not sure anyone can bring those characters to life without their distinctive inner voices and conflicts. Neil Jordan's Interview film came so, so close, but he's a genius, so... we'll see.

Edited January 21, 2020 by paramitch
italics

[Robert Lynch]

On 1/21/2020 at 4:05 PM, paramitch said:

So this is evidently still in stasis, according to this:

https://variety.com/2019/tv/news/anne-rice-vampire-chronicles-hulu-dead-1203449088/

As someone who liked Interview, adored Vampire Lestat and Queen of the Damned, and respected Tale of the Body Thief I'm conflicted.

Because that's the extent of my feelings about the vamps -- I feel like the further she went in the supporting characters' backstory novels, the worse she twisted and conflicted their backstories. Take Marius, who I adored -- then her backstory novel makes him a monster, but she seems to think he's a hero. And of course same goes for all the male vamps, and I just felt like it killed the series, over and over. I did read on (after many years, in protest after hating Memnoch the [fucking] Devil), but I disliked all of them. Something happened to Anne and after Body Thief, for me, she almost seemed to be writing a different series. Friends of mine have told me since then that she refused editorial input during/after Queen of the Damned, and that's why, so who knows. But OMG the literary quality just plummeted.

And I'm not happy about the decision to incorporate the Mayfair Chronicles. The only one I liked (which was amazing) was The Witching Hour, but I hated all the rest, especially her wholehearted support of pedophilia (a 13-year-old girl seduces Michael at one point). And that's not the only instance -- the "Witching Hour" books (more than most of hers) are filled with pedophilia. And, aghgh... I just can't. 

I loved Rice at a certain point in my life, and she inspired me as a fiction writer before it all went so horribly wrong -- she had this Baroque, new and florid tone that was so wonderful to me, and so seductive, but I feel like her own trauma and losses (and fame) led to her writing works that are just not tenable or believable, or acceptable. 

If the show happens, I'll watch. But I'm not expecting great things. I'm not sure anyone can bring those characters to life without their distinctive inner voices and conflicts. Neil Jordan's Interview film came so, so close, but he's a genius, so... we'll see.

You see, I think what happened is that after Body Theif, her characters turned a 190 degree angle and they no longer have discernible characteristics at all. I think one of Anne's flaw is not asking for editorial input, but continuing this cycle to the point of ridiculousness. Her recent VC adventures with Lestat and the Atlantians? Pshhhh....Let's not go there.

While I am not against whatever sex or gay innuendo is involved given the time period itself, The Vampire Armand is probably the most disturbing when it comes to that. A 17 year old having a relationship with a 40 year old is not going to past the censorship on TV. I think Marius is more hated in this book than the other one, but that's just me.

[paramitch]

19 hours ago, Robert Lynch said:

You see, I think what happened is that after Body Theif, her characters turned a 190 degree angle and they no longer have discernible characteristics at all. I think one of Anne's flaw is not asking for editorial input, but continuing this cycle to the point of ridiculousness. Her recent VC adventures with Lestat and the Atlantians? Pshhhh....Let's not go there.

While I am not against whatever sex or gay innuendo is involved given the time period itself, The Vampire Armand is probably the most disturbing when it comes to that. A 17 year old having a relationship with a 40 year old is not going to past the censorship on TV. I think Marius is more hated in this book than the other one, but that's just me.

Yeah, her public comments about editors went viral again in 2018 here. It's incredible how unaware she seems of her own arrogance -- and privilege. Editors are AMAZING, necessary people. Mine (and I've been lucky enough to have only good experiences) have always made my work better.

Here's the main crux of her post here -- she also added to it many times after it became the subject of a lot of media and mockery in 2018 or so:

Quote

"After the publication of The Queen of the Damned, I requested of my editor that she not give me anymore comments. I resolved to hand in the manuscripts when they were finished. And asked that she accept them as they were. She was very reluctant, feeling that her input had value, but she agreed to my wishes. I asked this due to my highly critical relationship with my work and my intense evolutionary work on every sentence in the work, my feeling for the rhythm of the phrase and the unfolding of the plot and the character development. I felt that I could not bring to perfection what I saw unless I did it alone. In other words, what I had to offer had to be offered in isolation. So all novels published after The Queen of the Damned were written by me in this pure fashion, my editor thereafter functioning as my mentor and guardian." 

As far as The Vampire Armand, yeah, that one and Blood and Gold (Marius's) upset me the most. I just felt they went above and beyond what was acceptable, and that she was presenting a deeply troubling, toxic and pedophilic relationship.

The thing is, I had previously been borderline okay with Armand and Marius in The Vampire Lestat, because the relationship was presented as being really complicated, and during the Renaissance, I was okay with the fact that there was a sexual aspect to the relationship because of Armand's age (17 in the Renaissance was okay with me and is still the age of consent in Italy), because it was more benignly vampiric than sexual, and because Armand was the pursuer and Marius the one who repeatedly attempted to rebuff him for his own good.

But for me it was a very thin line still, and that line was obliterated in the other two books (the Marius and Armand backstories) in ways that I really did find upsetting and needless. And again -- the worst part was, I had adored Marius as a character in The Vampire Lestat (and QotD). He was a cultured, empathetic and interesting person. So -- aghghg.

The irony is, I feel that if Rice had allowed her editors to do their jobs, a lot of these troubling elements would have been removed or tamped down (for instance, in her book Belinda, which is about a relationship between a grown man and a 16-year-old girl) legend has it that she had wanted the girl to be 6 or 7 before the editors flatly refused that scenario. And I still think they would have edited some of the more outrageous underaged stuff from the "Witching Hour" books. 

Anyway, I do still love the early Vampire Chronicles, and so far, the only thing I've seen that really presents them well onscreen is Neil Jordan's Interview with the Vampire, which I thought was pretty much perfectly done (and I especially loved how it merged Vampire Lestat and Interview).

Edited January 31, 2020 by paramitch

[Robert Lynch]

Good description of Queen of The Damned movie.

Why fans QOTD the movie so much

[magdalene]

Well, I spoiled myself and I am listening to the audio version right now.  I appreciate  the advice and info I got about not reading this now. But for me it was the right decision to dive in.  I was getting very frustrated watching the show because I always felt I was missing out on crucial info. This is actually going to make my re-watch  of the first season more enjoyable.

Even had I never seen this TV adaptation this book is a joy to listen to. It's like listening to beautiful poetry without the actual poetry part. I can't quite decide whether the author is Lestat or is falling in love with Lestat writing.  Heck, I am falling in love with Lestat listening to his thoughts and feelings. He is so passionate and fierce, and brash, and tender. The tenderness breaks you the most. Achingly human and beautifully monstrous at the same time.

I am a the point where Lestat had recently turned his dying mother into a Vampire and he has now met the the vampire Armand who is a fascinating character, fascinating on Lestat level but very different. I may be jumping the gun here but I feel the show has miscast  this character.  I don't see anything of the book Armand in the show actor. It's baffling.

[nodorothyparker]

The audio version of that book (along with some of the early books, so far as I've looked) is available on YouTube and you're right. Her prose is a joy to listen to. It was still early enough in her career that she was really showing off what she could do before she got so big that she was giving into all her worst writing impulses and overwriting everything. It's also before she hit her Jesus fanfiction period or when she decided she had to try to square the vampire universe with her Catholic theology.

I have a real soft spot for Armand and I already said in the comparison thread how disappointed I am in this casting or how he's being portrayed thus far. It's possible the show may go somewhere interesting with him, but while Louis is still essentially the same character he was in the books even with the casting change and reimaging of his origin story, this is no more book Armand than Antonio Banderas was in the Neil Jordan film. He's described over and over as a Botticelli painting come to life and so much about his character makes sense when you understand that he was made as a teenager after years of abuse and grooming. He and Lestat were both essentially orphaned by their makers early in, but where Lestat was left to find his own way in the world and largely make it up as he went along (and his character very much reflects that), Armand was immediately left to the mercies of those same older "monsters" Lestat tried to warn Claudia about on the show. That shaped who he is.

[Mr. Sparkle]

7 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

He's described over and over as a Botticelli painting come to life and so much about his character makes sense when you understand that he was made as a teenager after years of abuse and grooming.

I'm rereading The Vampire Lestat now, and I'm at the Armand part. I can't tell you how many time "auburn hair" and "boyish" come up. They did a great job in casting Lestat (IMO) I don't know why they can't get Armand. 

[Snow Apple]

I'm treating the books and show as two separate things or I'll go crazy with all the changes. I think I'm having an easier time since I haven't read the books in a decade or two and details have faded.

I'm trying to decide if I want to re-read once the season is over.

[magdalene]

While listening to the book I immediately and with no dissonance am picturing the TV show Lestat in my mind. It just automatically fell into place for me.  But casting an actor who looks in his thirties for Armand is like a scratch on a beautiful recording. Jarring.

[Glade]

9 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

He's described over and over as a Botticelli painting come to life and so much about his character makes sense when you understand that he was made as a teenager after years of abuse and grooming.

Show Armand is a Boticelli painting come to life though.  Personally I like Rashid as Armand, he's gorgeous, looks great with Louis, and him being a POC adds an important element to the coming rivalry between him and Claudia, since he won't be another white European guy like Lestat.  And IMO, it's not that big of a change to say that he goes through years of abuse and grooming, and is then turned as an emotionally stunted, traumatized adult instead.  The terrible QOTD film gave us a young auburn-haired Armand that was pretty cringe.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Glade

[paramitch]

I'm just about to watch the show -- so as someone who has just seen trailers, bear with me.

On 11/7/2022 at 8:28 PM, magdalene said:

Even had I never seen this TV adaptation this book is a joy to listen to. It's like listening to beautiful poetry without the actual poetry part. I can't quite decide whether the author is Lestat or is falling in love with Lestat writing.  Heck, I am falling in love with Lestat listening to his thoughts and feelings. He is so passionate and fierce, and brash, and tender. The tenderness breaks you the most. Achingly human and beautifully monstrous at the same time.

I am a the point where Lestat had recently turned his dying mother into a Vampire and he has now met the the vampire Armand who is a fascinating character, fascinating on Lestat level but very different. I may be jumping the gun here but I feel the show has miscast  this character.  I don't see anything of the book Armand in the show actor. It's baffling.

You're describing everything that made me fall so hard for Anne's writing when I was young; the ability to understand the potential tragedy of her vampires and their immortality, while also reframing and describing the specialness of being human and alive.

I'm so bummed to hear about Armand but we'll see what I think when I watch! While he was not book-Armand, I totally enjoyed Banderas, so I'm pretty flexible. He communicated a nice yearning and that ethical flexibility so I was fine with it. But we'll see.

On 11/8/2022 at 4:15 AM, nodorothyparker said:

The audio version of that book (along with some of the early books, so far as I've looked) is available on YouTube and you're right. Her prose is a joy to listen to. It was still early enough in her career that she was really showing off what she could do before she got so big that she was giving into all her worst writing impulses and overwriting everything. It's also before she hit her Jesus fanfiction period or when she decided she had to try to square the vampire universe with her Catholic theology.

Anne was an incredible, incredible writer. She brought this heightened, florid, gothic yet highly literate sense to the vampire universe that was just gorgeous. I loved her and she was my favorite writer until the Vampire Chronicles (and Witching Hour series) for me went badly off the rails when she fired all her editors. Suddenly we had seriously uneven writing and constant child porn (seriously, in book 2 of the Mayfair witches, a 13 year old girl "seduces" the main character! NOPE NOPE NOPE).

So yeah, that's when I noped out, hard.

On 11/7/2022 at 8:28 PM, magdalene said:

I can't quite decide whether the author is Lestat or is falling in love with Lestat writing.  Heck, I am falling in love with Lestat listening to his thoughts and feelings. He is so passionate and fierce, and brash, and tender. The tenderness breaks you the most. Achingly human and beautifully monstrous at the same time.

I am here to guide you through! (Hee)

Okay so first off, Louis is Anne. Lestat is Anne's tribute to her husband, the poet Stan Rice. Which is so interesting, especially that she abandons Louis's point of view and moves on to Lestat.

And I absolutely agree on Lestat -- he is a marvelous character in every single way, and I adore his sense of palpable joy. I love him as much as if he were a real person.

[Glade]

On account of the show I decided to re-read the first three novels for the first time since the 90's.  Overall I prefer Interview with it's melancholy and gut-punching ending (Armand's revelation is... and Lestat, Louis, and Armand as 3 fucked up relics of bygone eras swiftly dying out is a powerful image) to The Vampire Lestat's lush vibrance.  Anne Rice's rich prose detailing how beautiful and opulent every single room the characters enter is too overwhelming sometimes and inspired me to skim, as did the endless religious debates.

I also had to roll my eyes when she had benevolent Daddy Marius instruct Lestat to do 100% everything he did in Interview, thus absolving him, and the story of him owning the theater and instructing Armand to join it is also a little too perfectly lined up.  

I mostly liked QOTD; I loved Daniel, Jesse, and most of Maharat's sections, some of which thankfully zoomed back quite a bit to tell their stories.  I don't like the way Anne approaches  economic class in either QOTD or the prologue to TVL though (claiming 'its not that bad being homeless today' in one breath and the next describing how every single the characters drive is a Mercedes or Ferrari); and that the vampires are now this exclusive rich kid club thanks to Akasha (and partly Armand, who loved to kill young vampires everywhere he went) makes them less likeable to me. 

Night Island is tacky, Armand stole the wealth of multiple nations to build it, and it just reminds me how much I disliked the Miami setting of TOTBT, which I'm not going to re-read now.  I guess the fact that there were no lines whatsoever describing Louis reuniting with Armand and Daniel is ok in retrospect because there's nothing for the show to conflict with.  I really wish Anne had given Eric a book instead of Armand and Marius who's stories maybe didn't improve too much with expansion. 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Glade

[Mr. Sparkle]

Discuss all the novels about our favorite vampires here. Please note there may be spoilers about future tv episodes. 

[ALKOHOLIC]

On 1/21/2020 at 4:05 PM, paramitch said:

So this is evidently still in stasis, according to this:

https://variety.com/2019/tv/news/anne-rice-vampire-chronicles-hulu-dead-1203449088/

As someone who liked Interview, adored Vampire Lestat and Queen of the Damned, and respected Tale of the Body Thief I'm conflicted.

Because that's the extent of my feelings about the vamps -- I feel like the further she went in the supporting characters' backstory novels, the worse she twisted and conflicted their backstories. Take Marius, who I adored -- then her backstory novel makes him a monster, but she seems to think he's a hero. And of course same goes for all the male vamps, and I just felt like it killed the series, over and over. I did read on (after many years, in protest after hating Memnoch the [fucking] Devil), but I disliked all of them. Something happened to Anne and after Body Thief, for me, she almost seemed to be writing a different series. Friends of mine have told me since then that she refused editorial input during/after Queen of the Damned, and that's why, so who knows. But OMG the literary quality just plummeted.

And I'm not happy about the decision to incorporate the Mayfair Chronicles. The only one I liked (which was amazing) was The Witching Hour, but I hated all the rest, especially her wholehearted support of pedophilia (a 13-year-old girl seduces Michael at one point). And that's not the only instance -- the "Witching Hour" books (more than most of hers) are filled with pedophilia. And, aghgh... I just can't. 

I loved Rice at a certain point in my life, and she inspired me as a fiction writer before it all went so horribly wrong -- she had this Baroque, new and florid tone that was so wonderful to me, and so seductive, but I feel like her own trauma and losses (and fame) led to her writing works that are just not tenable or believable, or acceptable. 

If the show happens, I'll watch. But I'm not expecting great things. I'm not sure anyone can bring those characters to life without their distinctive inner voices and conflicts. Neil Jordan's Interview film came so, so close, but he's a genius, so... we'll see.

Excellent points.  After Tail of the Body Thief, I was unable to continue on with the Vampire Chronicles and another work by Ms. Rice.

Respect,