Andy73 July 31, 2022 Share July 31, 2022 17 hours ago, sistermagpie said: So I think she always sees herself as necessarily cold and not "easy to love" (as she calls Claudia Elizabeth’s fear her kids don’t love her often come back in the show.. 17 hours ago, sistermagpie said: She's like a junior high girl who's got a new cool friend and is thrilled with it. …Here you make me laugh... 17 hours ago, sistermagpie said: She plays the surface of the scene in a literal way while obviously not feeling much or being specific and that's why it makes it seem like the writing for her is worse than it is for everyone else. We certainly can’t compare Holly’s performance with other. We are on completely different layers. 18 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Like even when Elizabeth wants to end their marriage because it distracts her from her work, it doesn't occur to anyone for Philip to stay with the kids. I don’t know how is it in US but I can say how it is in Italy. Usually kids will stay with mother, in the house where they have always lived. It is very rare that they are left to the father. 18 hours ago, sistermagpie said: 21 hours ago, Paloma said: I agree but also remember a couple of flashbacks to scenes early in their fake marriage that suggested she did not really want to have kids and only did so (at least for the first one) because it was expected or required to make their cover as an ordinary American couple more believable. Definitely. She tells Leanne flat-out she never wanted kids, puts off telling Philip she's pregnant with Henry so she can change her mind. Decides to try to Paige more because of what's going on in Vietnam than because she's really ready to be a mother. Freaks out and runs to Gregory. None of these makes her a bad parent, but she might think they do. 100% agree with both of you. And I’m sure Elizabeth think they do. I think Elizabeth never made peace with herself cause she didn’t want them at first. 18 hours ago, sistermagpie said: I remember once disagreeing with someone who said Elizabeth *did* want kids despite all her misgivings I really don’t understand how someone could think it in this way… I’m going to quote you again: She knows she didn't want them, genuinely. That doesn't mean she doesn't love them now, but she didn't work through those feelings. 18 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Like I said above, I think her performance makes the writing seem one-dimensional in ways it isn't. Like when I rewatched Munchkins…. Ok!!! You have been convincing. I will pay more attention during my rewatch. :) 18 hours ago, Zella said: 22 hours ago, Andy73 said: Are you sure she feels she has to fake at home? I feel P&E are credible, authentic co-parents. And I think Elizabeth feels the same I don't mean her personality at home is fake--I think it is pretty authentic to her--I just mean that she has to fake being an American and not, you know, a Soviet spy who despises America and capitalism. I don't think she has the energy to fake her personality with all that going on. I’m sorry, I didn’t get you. Of course you are right! 2 Link to comment
Andy73 July 31, 2022 Share July 31, 2022 15 hours ago, Paloma said: because more people may be able to understand that some women prioritize career over family, but even now most people will assume that all women really do want children and will regret it if they don't have them. Unfortunately today there can be many reasons to be afraid having kids… non only career… but this is another story. 15 hours ago, Paloma said: But I can imagine that Elizabeth would have felt guilty if she was not carrying out missions for even a few months I want to be a bad guy: growing up the baby was her mission… 3 Link to comment
Paloma July 31, 2022 Share July 31, 2022 29 minutes ago, Andy73 said: Unfortunately today there can be many reasons to be afraid having kids… non only career… but this is another story. Sadly, this is true--I can think of many reasons not just about career. 30 minutes ago, Andy73 said: 16 hours ago, Paloma said: But I can imagine that Elizabeth would have felt guilty if she was not carrying out missions for even a few months I want to be a bad guy: growing up the baby was her mission… Good point! 1 Link to comment
Andy73 July 31, 2022 Share July 31, 2022 17 hours ago, Paloma said: It would have been interesting to me to see a few scenes of the early years with Paige and Henry, as Elizabeth adjusted to becoming a mother. I’m joking… 😀 3 1 Link to comment
Zella July 31, 2022 Share July 31, 2022 2 hours ago, Andy73 said: I’m sorry, I didn’t get you. Of course you are right! No worries! My original observation wasn't super clear! Link to comment
Zella July 31, 2022 Share July 31, 2022 (edited) On the subject of Paige's acting, I was more sympathetic to Paige this time around and Holly Taylor did annoy me much less, but I agree that she's just not really on the level of the other performers. She seems to have one default worried expression and, I mean, it works as a worried expression, but the rest of the cast is so good at acting with their face without saying a word--especially Philip and Elizabeth but also Arkady and Oleg and Martha and even Stan--that it is a noticeable different in talent. She does most of her worried acting with her eyebrows. Girl, use more than your eyebrows! I don't think she's a bad actress, per se, because I buy Paige's emotions she's expressing, but I don't think she's a particularly deep, varied, or subtle actress. I know Henry is kind of an underwritten cipher, but I love that kid. I work at a public library, and he reminds me so much of some of the kids who hang out at the library. I could totally imagine having that food combining conversation he had with Stan with one of them. LOL Keidrich Sellati didn't have a lot of heavy material to work with, but I felt like he had good comedic timing, and when he does get some heavier stuff to deal with in season 6, I thought he did really well with it. Again, he's not as subtle as the adult actors, but I totally bought Henry in season 6 as a fairly good-natured young man who was just resigned to have parents he considered indifferent and who nursed some very private resentment, bitterness, and hurt over it. His acting never took me out of a scene like Paige's eyebrows did. 2 hours ago, Andy73 said: I don’t know how is it in US but I can say how it is in Italy. Usually kids will stay with mother, in the house where they have always lived. It is very rare that they are left to the father. I think for the 80s, it would have been pretty realistic for the kids to end up with the mom primarily here, too, and though joint custody is the most common agreement, by default they usually end up spending more time with the mom in my experience. When my parents divorced in the 90s, we would have been better off with my dad, but we ended up staying primarily with my mother initially. I have friends who have custody arrangements now, and it does seem like there's an attempt to more evenly divide time between parents from when I was a kid--to the point that them explaining the custody schedules literally confuse me--but for all intents and purposes, the mom is still the primary caregiver. Edited July 31, 2022 by Zella 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 31, 2022 Share July 31, 2022 (edited) 19 hours ago, Paloma said: I absolutely believe this and relate to it. My daughter was and is very strong-willed, and I often felt that I was a failure as a mother whenever we were in conflict, because I wasn't able to react with patience and good humor like my husband. And I felt that my deficiencies as a mother were at least in part due to my originally not wanting to have a child and only doing so because my husband wanted to and I didn't want to lose him. I can totally believe this! I knew someone who even felt the same way about kids that were her grandchildren. She said she felt guilty because she didn't think they should have been born. I didn't think she had any reason to--their parents having kids was a terrible idea and her doubts about it all came true. But that had nothing to do with how she felt about the children themselves. 19 hours ago, Paloma said: Playing the scene "in a literal way" is an excellent assessment of the actress. She acts dramatically when the scene calls for it, but you almost feel than anyone could act the scene in that way. I did see more depth on the rewatch, but I still think a better actress could have brought more inner life to the character rather than simply reacting to things. Yeah, it's often like the dialogue is just telling her how to react so you'd get just as much from reading the dialogue yourself. You know when she's supposed to be sad or supposed to be angry, but it's always in the same way so you don't have a whole person whose development you're following, if that makes sense--while the other people in the scene, even supporting characters like Alice, often seem more real and specific. And the emotion's pretty surface. Like if you compare Martha's being freaked out about discovering Clark vs. what should be Paige's trauma after watching Elizabeth kill someone. Of course Alison Wright is a much more experienced and trained actress so it's not like this is something where a person is born just good or bad at it. But it changes the story and makes scenes that were probably supposed to be transformative not so important. 19 hours ago, Paloma said: Of course most women will love their children even if they didn't want to have them, but it will still be important to work through those feelings. And of course, sometimes even if they love them they still don't really want to be mothers as their priority! 19 hours ago, Paloma said: It would have been interesting to me to see a few scenes of the early years with Paige and Henry, as Elizabeth adjusted to becoming a mother. I think there was one scene where she was holding a baby (I don't remember which one) while looking out a window, but I wondered how long it took for motherly love to develop and, more practically, how she continued to do her job when they were younger than school age. I was thinking of the exact same moment. It's the ep with the series of flashbacks to her deciding to have Paige. Kerri Russell does do a good job silently holding the baby in a way that suggests a little discomfort and determination--without seeming hostile to the baby. I'll bet she did absolutely wish she could be out on missions. Also, we know that sex work seemed to be the really hard part of the job for Elizabeth. She could do it fine, but she clearly had issues with it. And I think being made to have a baby is even more of an unwanted body invasion. One that ties her to three other people forever. 1 hour ago, Zella said: I know Henry is kind of an underwritten cipher, but I love that kid. I work at a public library, and he reminds me so much of some of the kids who hang out at the library. I could totally imagine having that food combining conversation he had with Stan with one of them. LOL Keidrich Sellati didn't have a lot of heavy material to work with, but I felt like he had good comedic timing, and when he does get some heavier stuff to deal with in season 6, I thought he did really well with it. Again, he's not as subtle as the adult actors, but I totally bought Henry in season 6 as a fairly good-natured young man who was just resigned to have parents he considered indifferent and who nursed some very private resentment, bitterness, and hurt over it. His acting never took me out of a scene like Paige's eyebrows did. I felt that way about Henry too. Especially in S5 there were times where his entrance into a scene was a breath of fresh air because his energy level was so different. He always seemed to be very present in the scene, and while we never got a whole personality written for him, he was certainly recognizable as a kid. I bought him going through different phases and performing things. I just always really liked him too. He always seemed like a boy I probably would have been friends with. Paige was way more different and alien to me. (I visited the set once and met/saw some of the actors and Henry was very cute.) And in the last season, while we again didn't get the story that fleshed out, I thought the contrast between him and Paige was fascinating. That Paige and Elizabeth were together all the time but never actually being real with each other. While Henry's relationship with Philip seemed to have gotten to the more adult place of seeing Philip as a flawed person who loved him. Of course there was a big lie at the center of all of that too--the big one! But I think by S6 he's been assured that his father isn't indifferent. In fact, in a weird way it might eventually be a little better to think he was distracted by a more important job than being a travel agent! Some of his most important scenes talking to Stan about Stan, in fact, seemed to be important because he could apply them to Philip and not because it meant Stan and Henry was close. Particularly when Stan tells him he can't trust anyone because of his job, even Matthew, and Henry says that's sad. Of course, he'd have to deal with the fact that they told Paige, but I also think Henry must know on some level that was his choice as much as his parents'. Ultimately the "real" Philip is far more like Henry than the guy Henry knows is. 1 hour ago, Zella said: I think for the 80s, it would have been pretty realistic for the kids to end up with the mom primarily here, too, and though joint custody is the most common agreement, by default they usually end up spending more time with the mom in my experience. When my parents divorced in the 90s, we would have been better off with my dad, but we ended up staying primarily with my mother initially. I have friends who have custody arrangements now, and it does seem like there's an attempt to more evenly divide time between parents from when I was a kid--to the point that them explaining the custody schedules literally confuse me--but for all intents and purposes, the mom is still the primary caregiver. It seemed normal to me too that they'd be with Elizabeth in the house, but given the circumstances it just made me think about how much of a default that assumption is. Like the woman's literally saying she doesn't want distractions from work and so she's going to become a single mother. (Granted, Philip works full time so needs night for spying.) I remember someone once describing Philip, for instance, in S1 when they were separated, as the typical dad who just has fun with the kids and so doesn't know how to be the real parent and I thought that was pushing him into a cliche he didn't fit. That seemed proven with how the show skips over the three months that Elizabeth is recovering from her gunshot wound. The show always skips over parts where either Philip or Elizabeth isn't spying (we start both seasons 2 and 6 with the partner who hasn't been spying getting back to it). But it's just obvious there's nothing to say about Philip taking care of the kids by himself. It's not Kramer vs. Kramer, the kids are still the kids with him as the parent. Edited July 31, 2022 by sistermagpie 5 Link to comment
Zella July 31, 2022 Share July 31, 2022 4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: I felt that way about Henry too. Especially in S5 there were times where his entrance into a scene was a breath of fresh air because his energy level was so different. He always seemed to be very present in the scene, and while we never got a whole personality written for him, he was certainly recognizable as a kid. I bought him going through different phases and performing things. Yes I always looked forward to seeing whatever was occupying Henry, whether it was SNL, astronomy, or pirated movies! I was on another discussing board where someone said they had a hard time buying Henry as suddenly bright enough to be admitted to boarding school, but I never found it surprising. He was always shown to have an intrinsic love for learning. And it never seemed to have any deeper meaning for him beyond his own personal interests. The kid just liked to know things. 9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: (I visited the set once and met/saw some of the actors and Henry was very cute.) Oh how fun! Who did you get to see/meet? 9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: I remember someone once describing Philip, for instance, in S1 when they were separated, as the typical dad who just has fun with the kids and so doesn't know how to be the real parent and I thought that was pushing him into a cliche he didn't fit. That seemed proven with how the show skips over the three months that Elizabeth is recovering from her gunshot wound. The show always skips over parts where either Philip or Elizabeth isn't spying (we start both seasons 2 and 6 with the partner who hasn't been spying getting back to it). But it's just obvious there's nothing to say about Philip taking care of the kids by himself. It's not Kramer vs. Kramer, the kids are still the kids with him as the parent. Yeah I would disagree with that characterization very strongly as well. When they're together earlier in the season, we see that Philip is a very involved dad. And it's interesting to me that when they are separated, Elizabeth really struggles to get them out the door in the morning without Philip. He shows up one morning unannounced, order is restored, and it clearly irks her. LOLOL I think Philip also was always the fun parent to them, even before the separation, but I think he was also really mindful of how the separation made the kids see Elizabeth as the bad guy, so he wasn't consciously trying to undermine her as their other parent during the separation. He was just being his usual self when he was with them. 3 Link to comment
Domestic Assassin July 31, 2022 Share July 31, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: That seemed proven with how the show skips over the three months that Elizabeth is recovering from her gunshot wound. The show always skips over parts where either Philip or Elizabeth isn't spying (we start both seasons 2 and 6 with the partner who hasn't been spying getting back to it). But it's just obvious there's nothing to say about Philip taking care of the kids by himself. It's not Kramer vs. Kramer, the kids are still the kids with him as the parent. Kind of off on a tangent, but this is actually the one plot hole I can't figure out. He had just married Martha. How the hell did he manage that and the kids when Elizabeth was away for 3 months? He didn't just disappear on her during that time. And the two nights a week arrangement seemed to be established after Elizabeth returned (when P & E were telling Henry that he would need to do more travelling due to increased competition in the travel business). Can anyone make sense of that? I know they established that they used babysitters when they were working late, but having a babysitter stay all night on a regular basis for those three months seems unlikely. Edited July 31, 2022 by Domestic Assassin 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 31, 2022 Share July 31, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Zella said: Yes I always looked forward to seeing whatever was occupying Henry, whether it was SNL, astronomy, or pirated movies! I was on another discussing board where someone said they had a hard time buying Henry as suddenly bright enough to be admitted to boarding school, but I never found it surprising. He was always shown to have an intrinsic love for learning. And it never seemed to have any deeper meaning for him beyond his own personal interests. The kid just liked to know things. What's funny is at the time I remember a lot of people took his suddenly being good at school as proof that Philip and Elizabeth were ignoring him so much they hadn't realized he was a genius when...no, that's not at all what's going on. It's exactly as you said, and it makes perfect sense. He's *always* shown as a kid who loves learning independently. He just questions doing stuff he doesn't see the point--Paige is more like Elizabeth who fulfils responsibilities as an end in itself. But when people claimed that he'd been a genius all along it was really them that were ignoring how Henry was always doing badly in school. There's lots of references to his parents having to help him study, that he has tutors, that he has to do his homework how the teacher wants. They are very much on top of his schoolwork. But of course once he wants to do well in school for himself or the lessons become interesting, he's great at it. He was clearly always very bright and liked to think things through and did independent study for fun. 1 hour ago, Zella said: Oh how fun! Who did you get to see/meet? It was fun! I met Henry and Paige, Stan, Nina and Philip. (Philip I actually met without being introduced--I was looking for the person I was supposed to meet and asked some guy there and MR overheard me, swooped in and took me to his office. :-) ) I watched them film a couple of scenes--one with Paige and Henry and one with Philip, Paige and Elizabeth. A couple of MR's outtakes were funnier than the ones on the blooper reels, I have to say... 1 hour ago, Zella said: Yeah I would disagree with that characterization very strongly as well. When they're together earlier in the season, we see that Philip is a very involved dad. And it's interesting to me that when they are separated, Elizabeth really struggles to get them out the door in the morning without Philip. He shows up one morning unannounced, order is restored, and it clearly irks her. LOLOL Exactly. I mean, of course there's also the emotional trouble of the parents being separated, but it's obvious why Elizabeth being a single parent is a story where Philip as a single parent isn't. That's why there's so many 60s sitcoms about widowers or single dad guardians raising kids and very few about single mothers. We also see Philip doing housework. 1 hour ago, Zella said: I think Philip also was always the fun parent to them, even before the separation, but I think he was also really mindful of how the separation made the kids see Elizabeth as the bad guy, so he wasn't consciously trying to undermine her as their other parent during the separation. He was just being his usual self when he was with them. I think that's why it also seems so sad in S6 when it sometimes seems like Elizabeth can't help but talk about him like the weak one or something in S6. Two of the people she hangs out with most on her own--Gregory and Claudia--we know feel that way. 9 minutes ago, Domestic Assassin said: Kind of off on a tangent, but this is actually the one plot hole I can't figure out. He had just married Martha. How the hell did he manage that and the kids when Elizabeth was away for 3 months? He didn't just disappear on her during that time. And the two nights a week arrangement seemed to be established after Elizabeth returned (when P & E were telling Henry that he would need to do more travelling due to increased competition in the travel business). Can anyone make sense of that? IKR? I've wondered that too! The kids had babysitters then too. I think in my head I decided that he either made up some story to Martha about being out of town for three months, calling her from different places and "flying in"when he could or they kept to the schedule and they had a set overnight babysitter two days a week. It is a rather big deal that they just establish that set up and have it a thing in S2 with no explanation for how he did it all when Elizabeth was gone. Elizabeth was burnt out and resentful just doing too many short terms jobs alone over 3 years it seems! Edited July 31, 2022 by sistermagpie 1 3 Link to comment
Paloma July 31, 2022 Share July 31, 2022 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: Kerri Russell does do a good job silently holding the baby in a way that suggests a little discomfort and determination--without seeming hostile to the baby. I'll bet she did absolutely wish she could be out on missions. I also got the sense of a little discomfort and determination without seeming hostile to the baby, and that is a great example of nuanced acting (without even a word of dialogue) that Holly and probably most teen actors are not capable of. 25 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: What's funny is at the time I remember a lot of people took his suddenly being good at school as proof that Philip and Elizabeth were ignoring him so much they hadn't realized he was a genius when...no, that's not at all what's going on. It's exactly as you said, and it makes perfect sense. He's *always* shown as a kid who loves learning independently. He just questions doing stuff he doesn't see the point--Paige is more like Elizabeth who fulfils responsibilities as an end in itself. Guilty as charged, I was one of those people. But now I totally see it from your viewpoint, including the contrast with Paige, who is (or was) all about responsibility. 27 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: It was fun! I met Henry and Paige, Stan, Nina and Philip. (Philip I actually met without being introduced--I was looking for the person I was supposed to meet and asked some guy there and MR overheard me, swooped in and took me to his office. :-) ) I watched them film a couple of scenes--one with Paige and Henry and one with Philip, Paige and Elizabeth. That's so exciting! Are you allowed to say why you were there (e.g., as part of a job or on a tour)? 1 Link to comment
Zella July 31, 2022 Share July 31, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Domestic Assassin said: Kind of off on a tangent, but this is actually the one plot hole I can't figure out. He had just married Martha. How the hell did he manage that and the kids when Elizabeth was away for 3 months? He didn't just disappear on her during that time. And the two nights a week arrangement seemed to be established after Elizabeth returned (when P & E were telling Henry that he would need to do more travelling due to increased competition in the travel business). Can anyone make sense of that? I know they established that they used babysitters when they were working late, but having a babysitter stay all night on a regular basis for those three months seems unlikely. You know, I never thought of this, but that's a really good point. It's not like he could see her during the day when he would have been at "work" since she would have been at work too. Personally the plot hole that always bugs me is that Irina ends up being an Illegal too. From what I can tell there's no indication that she herself was in training, so it just sort of boggles my mind that Philip's first love whom he randomly seems to meet and who ends up not disclosing her pregnancy so he can go away for training also ends up undergoing this same intensive training. It reminds me of how, as much as I love Mad Men, Don Draper's backstory is a mess, and every time I think about it too hard, I roll my eyes because it lacks coherence. 2 hours ago, sistermagpie said: I think that's why it also seems so sad in S6 when it sometimes seems like Elizabeth can't help but talk about him like the weak one or something in S6. Two of the people she hangs out with most on her own--Gregory and Claudia--we know feel that way. This is true. I think Philip has the misfortune of being the scapegoat since he questions things and pushes back rather than always just following orders. The only time I remember him getting any positive affirmation from within the KGB is in season 6 when Arkady tells Oleg that he believes Philip is like them and can be trusted, which is true. But I can't see Claudia ever positively comparing herself to Philip. 2 hours ago, sistermagpie said: It was fun! I met Henry and Paige, Stan, Nina and Philip. (Philip I actually met without being introduced--I was looking for the person I was supposed to meet and asked some guy there and MR overheard me, swooped in and took me to his office. :-) ) I watched them film a couple of scenes--one with Paige and Henry and one with Philip, Paige and Elizabeth. A couple of MR's outtakes were funnier than the ones on the blooper reels, I have to say... Oh that is fun--sounds like a really nice time! I love watching the outtakes--Matthew and Keri are both so funny. It's always so jarring for me to see him talk in his natural accent and for her to smile and be goofy. LOLOL I always got the impression that the cast must have gotten along pretty well with each other. I mean, obviously Matthew and Keri ended up together, but just any of the set anecdotes I've heard about makes it seem like it was a fairly pleasant set without a lot of offscreen drama. 2 hours ago, sistermagpie said: What's funny is at the time I remember a lot of people took his suddenly being good at school as proof that Philip and Elizabeth were ignoring him so much they hadn't realized he was a genius when...no, that's not at all what's going on. It's exactly as you said, and it makes perfect sense. He's *always* shown as a kid who loves learning independently. He just questions doing stuff he doesn't see the point--Paige is more like Elizabeth who fulfils responsibilities as an end in itself. But when people claimed that he'd been a genius all along it was really them that were ignoring how Henry was always doing badly in school. There's lots of references to his parents having to help him study, that he has tutors, that he has to do his homework how the teacher wants. They are very much on top of his schoolwork. But of course once he wants to do well in school for himself or the lessons become interesting, he's great at it. He was clearly always very bright and liked to think things through and did independent study for fun. Yes I taught for a couple of years, and in my experience, kids like Henry often don't have grades that match their actual intelligence, and kids like Paige often don't necessarily have an understanding of or interest in the material that matches their grades either.* If I'm not mistaken, I believe the rest of the Jennings even joke about how the only thing Henry had to do was apply himself after all. *Not that I think Paige was dumb. I think she was above average intelligence actually, but she seemed to lack her brother's natural curiosity. She's perceptive enough to note that something is off with her parents and family and she obviously will pursue further reading on things that interest her. But I think she is more dependent on affirmation from authority figures than her brother, and it makes her much less independent. Even when she rebels against her parents, she has to seek out substitute parental figures to do so. Henry obviously ends up seeing Stan in some ways as a surrogate parent, but I never got the impression it was because he needed it so much as he just genuinely liked spending time with Stan. And their interactions often seem more friendly than parental anyway. (And I think they were easier for Stan himself for that reason. Parenting does not seem to come particularly easy for Stan or hold a particularly high priority for him.) 2 hours ago, Paloma said: Paige, who is (or was) all about responsibility. Yeah one of the things I noticed this time around is how much responsibility Paige views herself as having toward Henry. In season 1, it kind of makes sense since she's the older sister, but through the series, she's shown checking in on Henry in a parental way that hadn't quite clicked for me before. It makes her discomfort with them leaving Henry make a lot of sense. Edited July 31, 2022 by Zella 2 1 Link to comment
Andy73 July 31, 2022 Share July 31, 2022 Cover War - Ep S1x10 OMG: Sandra’s “This is my Italian lover, Galliaaaano… “ It can’t be heard… 😀 Is Elizabeth thinking about her marriage? I think Elizabeth is really happy to dance. Enjoy your dance… you are out of business for a while, aren’t you? Oh Stan, is a flood that is coming on you? Sandra broke the dam. Well done! “Defying orders is never the right thing to do”…. I had to think Grannie wouldn’t take it well. ”Monster with FBI badge” “I tougth they know secret war rules”… it’s funny Russian think US are bad guys… Americans think Russian are bad guys Grannie, Is that a hint for Elizabeth? May be dangerous! First flashback whit Zuchov. At the first watch i thought she is linking it to Philip. I still think it, but I’m wandering whether she is linking it to Zuchov. Nina looks nervous here as she talks to Arkady. What are she thinking about? Martha wasn't as passive as we thought... she invited her parents. Philip's face when he sees them and when he leaves is wonderful. His look says more than many words. Coming back to the cast: this is the different between top actor/actress and a normal performance. Second flashback whit Zuchov. We learn Page was born in ‘68. Henry in 71 or 72… “We all die alone, Elizabeth. Before that we make a choose” makes me definitely think Elizabeth is linking flashback to Phil. Many questions: Why Zuchov push for happy match in all sense? Because he think is better for her in a long term? For the business? Just for her? Sure he knows William’s story and he saw how could be hard to stay alone. How could he be sure Philip was the right man for her? Did he know Philip so well? It is interesting Elizabeth says she is pregnant to Zuchov before Philip. “In case you change your mind” makes me think this wasn’t an order… uhm many things are not clear in P&E past. Poor Philip… he has to cover her another time… when Elizabeth calls, Philip is here. LOL I've never been an attractive guy but not even in 100 lives I could meet a girl at the pub who approaches me with “4 letter word that finish the sentence do you wanna…?” is there a mark on Elizabeth cheek? OMG.. Stan is not coherent with himself. I was wrong: I remembered Nina made the first move with to Stan. Richard has been good with Elizabeth, Ok she lost control..why? It’s because he said her or she realizes she was doing a bullshit? “You life is a lie…. No heart no soul no conscience.. do you love anyone… does anyone..??? Huge thing… Nice Philip: at first he offers to finish her work then he tries to help her. Ok we understood: Zuchov push for Philip. The motel scene. I fly over the matter of how to open the beer bottle… I understood Elizabeth was trying to ask Philip to come home just when I saw her face after he asked her to see his new apartment. I think Philip too… For God Liz, if you want he come home you have to say him you love him… not for Kids’s sake. I know it is difficult… but this is only the way. I think that Philip while loving her he accepted the separation. And he could come back to her only if he is sure she really want him… no excuse here. 2 Link to comment
Andy73 July 31, 2022 Share July 31, 2022 3 hours ago, sistermagpie said: 4 hours ago, Domestic Assassin said: Kind of off on a tangent, but this is actually the one plot hole I can't figure out. He had just married Martha. How the hell did he manage that and the kids when Elizabeth was away for 3 months? He didn't just disappear on her during that time. And the two nights a week arrangement seemed to be established after Elizabeth returned (when P & E were telling Henry that he would need to do more travelling due to increased competition in the travel business). Can anyone make sense of that? Expand IKR? I've wondered that too! The kids had babysitters then too. I think in my head I decided that he either made up some story to Martha about being out of town for three months, calling her from different places and "flying in"when he could or they kept to the schedule and they had a set overnight babysitter two days a week This sounds good for me. Philip has no other chance to stay with kids for as long as possible. So he save less time for Martha and may not have been a problem working at night: many times they left them alone. 3 hours ago, Zella said: always got the impression that the cast must have gotten along pretty well with each other. I mean, obviously Matthew and Keri ended up together, but just any of the set anecdotes I've heard about makes it seem like it was a fairly pleasant set without a lot of offscreen drama. In some interview JJ told there has always been an awesome atmosphere. 3 hours ago, Zella said: Yeah one of the things I noticed this time around is how much responsibility Paige views herself as having toward Henry. In season 1, it kind of makes sense since she's the older sister, but through the series, she's shown checking in on Henry in a parental way that hadn't quite clicked for me before. It makes her discomfort with them leaving Henry make a lot of sense. 100% agree. Several times we see she acts as she’s his mother…. Like almost all older brothers/sisters 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 31, 2022 Share July 31, 2022 3 hours ago, Paloma said: I also got the sense of a little discomfort and determination without seeming hostile to the baby, and that is a great example of nuanced acting (without even a word of dialogue) that Holly and probably most teen actors are not capable of. Yes, there's a lot of time where HT is obviously trying to look like she thinking about something very hard and seems to be thinking "I am thinking very hard." It makes a difference! 3 hours ago, Paloma said: That's so exciting! Are you allowed to say why you were there (e.g., as part of a job or on a tour)? Oh sure, a friend of mine entered some raffle where she won a set visit and since I was the fan she new nearby the studio, we went together. :-) 3 hours ago, Zella said: Personally the plot hole that always bugs me is that Irina ends up being an Illegal too. From what I can tell there's no indication that she herself was in training, so it just sort of boggles my mind that Philip's first love whom he randomly seems to meet and who ends up not disclosing her pregnancy so he can go away for training also ends up undergoing this same intensive training. It reminds me of how, as much as I love Mad Men, Don Draper's backstory is a mess, and every time I think about it too hard, I roll my eyes because it lacks coherence. OMG, that is easily my biggest issue with the canon and I'll be going into it again when I post about the next ep. Nothing about her makes sense whatsoever, and every time they add a new detail it just makes it worse. I remember someone once saying something about the show Homeland, which I never watched. I think they were refering to the Damien Lewis character? And they said in the original Israeli show he was 3 characters and they made him into one. The person said oh, that finally explains why the guy is completely incoherent as a personality. It made me think of Irina because she so clearly has to be two contradictory people at the same time. Irina #1 is an burntout embedded Illegal who can meet Philip in NY and ask him to join her in running away and so can't have lived the life he left behind. Irina #2 is the Hometown Girl He Left Behind and raised his son and so can't be talking to him in English in NYC. Some have suggested that she's supposed to be some sort of part-time Illegal we don't ever really see existing (save the one special case of Oleg's computer expert who speaks English) and the information is so vague and contradictory you can find back up for just about anything. But to me she obviously has to be embedded long-term like him, or else why would she need to run away to have a real life? She would have one already, most of the time. She could just stop doing that. And yes, from the start it makes no sense. He meets her at a random train station and it turns out they'll both train to be Illegals? What are the chances? And she was local enough that she was living at home while he was...wherever he was. And couldn't tell him she was pregnant because then he wouldn't have been able to do a job like he has now. And like she also somehow has now in spite of knowing she was pregnant. 3 hours ago, Zella said: This is true. I think Philip has the misfortune of being the scapegoat since he questions things and pushes back rather than always just following orders. The only time I remember him getting any positive affirmation from within the KGB is in season 6 when Arkady tells Oleg that he believes Philip is like them and can be trusted, which is true. But I can't see Claudia ever positively comparing herself to Philip. Yes, everyone seems to see Philip as a threat to Elizabeth and not the other way around. LOL. But otoh, there does seem to be some suggestion that they particularly admire his skills as a spy. Which would ironically probably give them more reasons not to trust him. 3 hours ago, Zella said: Yes I taught for a couple of years, and in my experience, kids like Henry often don't have grades that match their actual intelligence, and kids like Paige often don't necessarily have an understanding of or interest in the material that matches their grades either.* Yes, exactly. And I didn't think it meant Paige wasn't smart either. Academic-type study just doesn't seem to be a passion for her. When she gets into something deeply, it's activism. I remember some thought she was supposed to be booksmart rather than streetsmart, but booksmart isn't her thing either. One of the easiest ways to show that would be to send her to Georgetown, which would be close enough for her to still be nearby, but they don't. Plus she's pretty intentionally ignorant about the USSR. While Henry seems ontrack to get a scholarship to some ivy league with his record and connections. That's actually another little pet peeve of mine is that both times the Jennings kids ask for something that costs a lot they throw in some excuse for why it costs nothing when it's not even necessary. Like Henry says he can go to private school because he can get a scholarship after having good grades for a semester. Then the next season when finances are a problem for Philip, suddenly the scholarship is barely any help at all? Why not just have Philip pay for it for 3 years and then need a scholarship? The other time is even more egregious, when Paige wants to go to camp for 3 months as a fourteen-year-old and claims she doesn't have to pay anything if she's a CIT. No, she can't and no, that's not free. 3 hours ago, Zella said: *Not that I think Paige was dumb. I think she was above average intelligence actually, but she seemed to lack her brother's natural curiosity. She's perceptive enough to note that something is off with her parents and family and she obviously will pursue further reading on things that interest her. But I think she is more dependent on affirmation from authority figures than her brother, and it makes her much less independent. Even when she rebels against her parents, she has to seek out substitute parental figures to do so. Henry obviously ends up seeing Stan in some ways as a surrogate parent, but I never got the impression it was because he needed it so much as he just genuinely liked spending time with Stan. And their interactions often seem more friendly than parental anyway. (And I think they were easier for Stan himself for that reason. Parenting does not seem to come particularly easy for Stan or hold a particularly high priority for him.) Yeah, it seems like Henry's very interested in the outside world and part of that is being drawn to different role models. Stan's a single G-man who lives in a sort of PG-rated frat house. Plus Stan is his own dad's bff. It's not like Paige going to Pastor Tim as an authority or alternate parent. Being close to Stan is in a way being closer to Philip. I think Stan definitely prefers dealing with Henry to Matthew for obvious reasons--but that it actually is another short-sighted choice on his part. The day Matthew finally returns to stay with him and finds Henry there is just painful and Stan acts like it's making him look good. 3 hours ago, Zella said: Yeah one of the things I noticed this time around is how much responsibility Paige views herself as having toward Henry. In season 1, it kind of makes sense since she's the older sister, but through the series, she's shown checking in on Henry in a parental way that hadn't quite clicked for me before. It makes her discomfort with them leaving Henry make a lot of sense. I took a lot of that to be out of her sense of responsibility and trying to signal that she was an adult as well. I also thought some of her discomfort about leaving him was projection--she talks a lot about a fear of being left alone and specifically seemed to fear her parents disappearing at times (for obvious reasons). Not that this wouldn't be horrifying for Henry too when it happened, of course. What I also always thought was interesting about Paige's being responsible for Henry too is is that people often acted like that was reciprical when it clearly isn't. That is, Henry never looks to Paige as a surrogate parent. He ignores all her scolding and corrections, never looks to her for help (except after their one and only adventure when he might have saved her from attack), never sees her as having any authority over him. So like when people would claim Paige and Henry were so very close because they grew up without care from their terrible parents it just seemed bizarre--I don't think the two of them even exchange a single word the final season. (Though they maybe share a look at Thanksgiving over Philip and Elizabeth obviously fighting.) If Paige is trying to be a parent to Henry, the parent she models herself on is obviously Elizabeth. 4 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 31, 2022 Share July 31, 2022 1 hour ago, Andy73 said: Cover War - Ep S1x10 OMG: Sandra’s “This is my Italian lover, Galliaaaano… “ It can’t be heard… 😀 LOL! How's her pronounciation? 1 hour ago, Andy73 said: Second flashback whit Zuchov. We learn Page was born in ‘68. Henry in 71 or 72… I was getting Paige's age wrong for years watching the show, but finally realized that she was born in 1967. The flashback where they start trying must be early that year. Because that's how it works out for everything else. I think I saw a prop somewhere that had Henry's birthday as being in January. I think Elizabeth says he's turning 17 soon at the end of the show, so he'd have been born in January 1971. Paige's birthday seems to be in November, but I can't remember how I came to think that. 1 hour ago, Andy73 said: Why Zuchov push for happy match in all sense? Because he think is better for her in a long term? For the business? Just for her? Sure he knows William’s story and he saw how could be hard to stay alone. How could he be sure Philip was the right man for her? Did he know Philip so well? Good question. I assume Gabriel's telling the truth about her having another guy she was supposed to be with. Maybe that made Zhukov try to search for somebody who seemed a better fit for her personally. He'd already want to have someone whose skills complimented hers, because they'd probably always want to do that, but maybe his personality seemed less likely to scare her. Again, I feel bad for Philip how Elizabeth is just surrounded by people who seem to make her their special project, and nobody's like that for Philip. Zhukov thinks he's a good guy, but they're obviously not close--and Zhukov is ready to hear the worst about him from Elizabeth. Then there's Claudia and Gregory. Even Gabriel sees Elizabeth as helping keep an eye on Philip. Later she can talk to Father Andre--after she stops getting tapes from her mother! When Elizabeth tells Gregory about Philip leaving and says, "Who else am I going to tell?" it just makes me laugh that she doesn't realize how many more supporters she has! 1 hour ago, Andy73 said: It is interesting Elizabeth says she is pregnant to Zuchov before Philip. “In case you change your mind” makes me think this wasn’t an order… uhm many things are not clear in P&E past. I think it was an order to have at least one kid, but Elizabeth had some window about when to do it. If she decided it wasn't a good time she could probably terminate the pregnancy, especially since she'd fulfilled her duty by having the one kid already. 1 hour ago, Andy73 said: is there a mark on Elizabeth cheek? I think she has a scar in this scene. 1 hour ago, Andy73 said: Richard has been good with Elizabeth, Ok she lost control..why? It’s because he said her or she realizes she was doing a bullshit? “You life is a lie…. No heart no soul no conscience.. do you love anyone… does anyone..??? Huge thing… That turns out to be more important later too, like whenever Philip suggests she has no soul or conscience. 1 hour ago, Andy73 said: The motel scene. I fly over the matter of how to open the beer bottle… I understood Elizabeth was trying to ask Philip to come home just when I saw her face after he asked her to see his new apartment. I think Philip too… For God Liz, if you want he come home you have to say him you love him… not for Kids’s sake. I know it is difficult… but this is only the way. I think that Philip while loving her he accepted the separation. And he could come back to her only if he is sure she really want him… no excuse here. I love how they set all this up step by step, so Elizabeth can't get him back with the excuse of it being for the kids. Either she's all in or not. There's no cover to hide behind. 1 Link to comment
Zella July 31, 2022 Share July 31, 2022 33 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Yes, there's a lot of time where HT is obviously trying to look like she thinking about something very hard and seems to be thinking "I am thinking very hard." It makes a difference! 😂😂😂 34 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Some have suggested that she's supposed to be some sort of part-time Illegal we don't ever really see existing (save the one special case of Oleg's computer expert who speaks English) and the information is so vague and contradictory you can find back up for just about anything. But to me she obviously has to be embedded long-term like him, or else why would she need to run away to have a real life? She would have one already, most of the time. She could just stop doing that. Yes and I don't understand the situation with her son either. He clearly knows her as mom. Was he not a part of her cover? Was he raised by his grandfather and she only came back for periodic visits? If so, how can she do that and Elizabeth can't? How long after his birth did she undertake this intensive Illegals training? Actually a smaller pet peeve of mine is that I like Misha as a character, but I don't buy this guy as a combat-hardened paratrooper who volunteered for an extended tour in Afghanistan at all. My dad was a paratrooper. It's kind of a well-established joke about paratroopers that they're all a bunch of inveterate hellraisers, and that seems to transcend nationality of said paratrooper. (As to quote my dad, normal people don't jump out of perfectly good planes.) Not that you don't have the occasional odd duck in there, but the backstory matches nothing about him at all. And I can buy Misha as Philip's son, but he acts like he is completely clueless about living life in the Soviet Union. But he speaks fluent Russian and knows his Russian family and serves in the Soviet military, so he doesn't seem to have any reason for being quite that naive. 39 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: he day Matthew finally returns to stay with him and finds Henry there is just painful and Stan acts like it's making him look good. That scene is The Office levels of awkward. Matthew handled it better than I would have. 40 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: What I also always thought was interesting about Paige's being responsible for Henry too is is that people often acted like that was reciprical when it clearly isn't. That is, Henry never looks to Paige as a surrogate parent. He ignores all her scolding and corrections, never looks to her for help (except after their one and only adventure when he might have saved her from attack), never sees her as having any authority over him. So like when people would claim Paige and Henry were so very close because they grew up without care from their terrible parents it just seemed bizarre--I don't think the two of them even exchange a single word the final season. (Though they maybe share a look at Thanksgiving over Philip and Elizabeth obviously fighting.) Ooh that's a really interesting observation! 1 hour ago, Andy73 said: Nina looks nervous here as she talks to Arkady. What are she thinking about? Is that the scene where he comes to her office and assigns her to work on the library bug? (And also references Howard Cosell, which always makes me laugh envisioning him watching Cosell on TV as homework about America and internalizing it as deeply significant.) Off the top of my head, I often thought in season 1 after getting Vasili booted out, that she was still really paranoid about Arkady but also started to feel pricks of conscious about spying for America since he's actually a reasonable boss. If I'm not mistaken, she tells Stan she was promoted but never discloses that she was working on a bug inside a top official's home, so I think it's showing her start to distance herself from Stan before she ever confesses what she did. Link to comment
Zella July 31, 2022 Share July 31, 2022 15 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: I was getting Paige's age wrong for years watching the show, but finally realized that she was born in 1967. The flashback where they start trying must be early that year. Because that's how it works out for everything else. I think I saw a prop somewhere that had Henry's birthday as being in January. I think Elizabeth says he's turning 17 soon at the end of the show, so he'd have been born in January 1971. Paige's birthday seems to be in November, but I can't remember how I came to think that. Okay you've helped me piece together her birth year because I was confused on that but had her birth month pegged as early December. Her birthday dinner in "Open House," where she ambushes her parents with a request to be baptized, doesn't have a clear date, but it's sandwiched between episodes that are in late November and late December. I don't know that they ever mention her birthday again. I am pretty sure that Henry's birthday was January 1971. In addition to the reference to him turning 17 soon at the end of the series, in season 2, Elizabeth returns home from being shot in time for his 11th birthday in January 1982. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 31, 2022 Share July 31, 2022 8 minutes ago, Zella said: 😂😂😂 Yes and I don't understand the situation with her son either. He clearly knows her as mom. Was he not a part of her cover? Was he raised by his grandfather and she only came back for periodic visits? If so, how can she do that and Elizabeth can't? How long after his birth did she undertake this intensive Illegals training? Yes! And yet, since I tend to think she had to be embedded all this time like the Jennings, I wonder if it's possible he doesn't know her as his mom. At least not in person. He listens to a tape from her at one point--one that obviously wasn't sent through official channels. But maybe they sent tapes back and forth like Elizabeth with her mom and he lived with his grandfather? She got a picture of him? He certainly seems very close to his grandfather. He sort of nods at the neighbor across the hall like maybe he knows them. Irina tells Philip she's a widow, but maybe she's lying and the guy who "died" was really Philip? Why does Philip ask if she's divorced? Does he assume she got married, divorced, and then became an illegal? Nina turns out to have been married, after all. Or is he using divorced as a nomal person code for the partnership not working out? Mischa and his grandfather's conversation is vague enough that they could be talking about a mother/daughter neither has seen in 20 years but were able to have some contact with (and looms large in their imaginations), or somebody they've seen since then. Mischa's asking his grandfather if he ever met his father or if he knows what he looks like, which makes it seem like they've never talked about him before. He also questions how he knows Irina loved him, which implies he hasn't talked about him with Irina either. Is he supposed to have only recently learned his father is Philip? Did he think somebody else was his father? That seems unlikely since Grandpa apparently knew perfectly well she was dating this guy. (Even if, according to a Russian person, it's bizarre that he never actually met him.) Seems unlikely the KGB wouldn't have found out this kid was the son of two elite Illegals--just because Gabriel told Philip in S3 doesn't mean they didn't know it before. At least they would have know she had a kid. Unless we're supposed to think she just announced it when she was arrested, in which case she probably wasn't raising him. And when/how did Irina manage to tell Mischa his father was a travel agent in the US? Why would she know that? Did she know Philip was in NY under his real identity? If so, she'd know his name and hometown. If she only knew she was seeing him at a convention for travel agents, why assume that was his real job? "I just know he's a travel agent in the US" is something you say about somebody you went to high school with, not an embedded spy you haven't seen in 20 years. 8 minutes ago, Zella said: Actually a smaller pet peeve of mine is that I like Misha as a character, but I don't buy this guy as a combat-hardened paratrooper who volunteered for an extended tour in Afghanistan at all. My dad was a paratrooper. It's kind of a well-established joke about paratroopers that they're all a bunch of inveterate hellraisers, and that seems to transcend nationality of said paratrooper. (As to quote my dad, normal people don't jump out of perfectly good planes.) Not that you don't have the occasional odd duck in there, but the backstory matches nothing about him at all. That's how I feel about him too. I remember discussions about it at the time, and some thought he just would be different because he's lost outside of the army but...why make him a paratrooper who's signing up for extra tours and then have him be a quietly stubborn protestor of the war? He's obviously got guts to do that and make that unlikely escape with even more unlikely documents Irina was able to send, but he doesn't much seem like the guy we imagine. Could they have been lying about what he was to get Philip more invested in getting intel? If so, we have no way of knowing. 8 minutes ago, Zella said: And I can buy Misha as Philip's son, but he acts like he is completely clueless about living life in the Soviet Union. But he speaks fluent Russian and knows his Russian family and serves in the Soviet military, so he doesn't seem to have any reason for being quite that naive. He doesn't just speak fluent Russian, he speaks *only* fluent Russian. He doesn't speak English well at all. You can also see when he's looking at some instructions he wrote down that he's written the English words in Cyrilic so he can pronounce them better. The only place he's ever been outside the USSR is Afghanistan, it seems. In fact, at the time someone pointed out that navigates the US far too easily for someone with his background. I remember, actually, how before he made it to DC there was discussion about whether he would be able to speak English or not, because it would be unlikely if he did given his background. I assumed he'd be able to speak just enough as he needed to have conversations with people, as it usually works on TV. But I was pleasantly surprised how they made his rudimentary English part of the struggle in his conversation with Gabriel. 8 minutes ago, Zella said: That scene is The Office levels of awkward. Matthew handled it better than I would have. Seriously! 8 minutes ago, Zella said: Is that the scene where he comes to her office and assigns her to work on the library bug? (And also references Howard Cosell, which always makes me laugh envisioning him watching Cosell on TV as homework about America and internalizing it as deeply significant.) Off the top of my head, I often thought in season 1 after getting Vasili booted out, that she was still really paranoid about Arkady but also started to feel pricks of conscious about spying for America since he's actually a reasonable boss. If I'm not mistaken, she tells Stan she was promoted but never discloses that she was working on a bug inside a top official's home, so I think it's showing her start to distance herself from Stan before she ever confesses what she did. Yes, I thought that too. Her never telling him that is a clear sign she's not being open with him Just now, Zella said: Okay you've helped me piece together her birth year because I was confused on that but had her birth month pegged as early December. Her birthday dinner in "Open House," where she ambushes her parents with a request to be baptized, doesn't have a clear date, but it's sandwiched between episodes that are in late November and late December. I don't know that they ever mention her birthday again. I am pretty sure that Henry's birthday was January 1971. In addition to the reference to him turning 17 soon at the end of the series, in season 2, Elizabeth returns home from being shot in time for his 11th birthday in January 1982. Could definitely be early December or late November. I think that's where I got it, just that it's clearly around that time. Stingers takes place around mid-February (I was a big General Hospital fan at that time so you bet I recognize what's going on in the episode Paige is watching the next day!) It lines up if we assume it's late November or early December. She turns 20 during S6. Henry's still 16 at the end of the show, but will turn 17 in a few weeks, January 1988. So there's a few weeks where Paige is four years older, and she's four years ahead in school. He's a junior in high school at the end, she's a junior in college. 2 Link to comment
Zella July 31, 2022 Share July 31, 2022 I just want to cosign everything you said about Irina and Mischa, @sistermagpie. The more you pick it apart, the more preposterous it is. It's really the biggest criticism I have about the writing, and fortunately, it's not a major part of the story. My guess is they didn't really think through what they were doing early on when they introduced Irina, but it created a mess. 2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Nina turns out to have been married, after all. So, this is actually a technical qualm with the show, though I understand why they did this, but apparently the KGB policy was NOT to send single KGB officers abroad to Rezidenturas. They wanted you married, and they often liked to keep the spouse behind as an incentive for you not to defect. So, I think even with her backstory of them no longer really being married would be regarded with suspicion. And a single guy like Oleg (or even Vlad) would never have gotten posted abroad to a Rezidentura apparently. I guess we can hand-wave that away as connections but still. Incidentally, adultery in those Rezidentura officers was also regarded poorly. Like, one dude was sent home and kept at a desk for a few years as punishment before he was allowed another overseas posting. And the girl he was cheating with was the daughter of a KGB officer whom he later married, but his superiors were not impressed at all. 1 Link to comment
Andy73 July 31, 2022 Share July 31, 2022 33 minutes ago, Zella said: 56 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: I was getting Paige's age wrong for years watching the show, but finally realized that she was born in 1967. The flashback where they start trying must be early that year. Because that's how it works out for everything else. I think I saw a prop somewhere that had Henry's birthday as being in January. I think Elizabeth says he's turning 17 soon at the end of the show, so he'd have been born in January 1971. Paige's birthday seems to be in November, but I can't remember how I came to think that. Okay you've helped me piece together her birth year because I was confused on that but had her birth month pegged as early December. Her birthday dinner in "Open House," where she ambushes her parents with a request to be baptized, doesn't have a clear date, but it's sandwiched between episodes that are in late November and late December. I don't know that they ever mention her birthday again. I am pretty sure that Henry's birthday was January 1971. In addition to the reference to him turning 17 soon at the end of the series, in season 2, Elizabeth returns home from being shot in time for his 11th birthday in January 1982 I stil have a problem with their birthday. At first I thought Page was born in 68. Easy: 71-3 = 68 but it is possibile 67 too. Actually assuming Henry was born in 71 as you said, it should be in later 71 and the flashback scene should be in the early 71. I can’t get he was born in January. 2 Link to comment
Andy73 August 1, 2022 Share August 1, 2022 16 minutes ago, Zella said: I just want to cosign everything you said about Irina and Mischa, @sistermagpie. The more you pick it apart, the more preposterous it is. It's really the biggest criticism I have about the writing, and fortunately, it's not a major part of the story. My guess is they didn't really think through what they were doing early on when they introduced Irina, but it created a mess Me too!! Irina story doesn’t make sense!!! 3 Link to comment
Zella August 1, 2022 Share August 1, 2022 4 minutes ago, Andy73 said: I stil have a problem with their birthday. At first I thought Page was born in 68. Easy: 71-3 = 68 but it is possibile 67 too. Actually assuming Henry was born in 71 as you said, it should be in later 71 and the flashback scene should be in the early 71. I can’t get he was born in January. Yes I remember doing a double-take on as well since his birthday seems to be early January the next season when they finally are "celebrating" his birthday. I think they forgot about that when they wrote season 2! 2 Link to comment
Domestic Assassin August 1, 2022 Share August 1, 2022 20 minutes ago, Andy73 said: I stil have a problem with their birthday. At first I thought Page was born in 68. Easy: 71-3 = 68 but it is possibile 67 too. Actually assuming Henry was born in 71 as you said, it should be in later 71 and the flashback scene should be in the early 71. I can’t get he was born in January. 12 minutes ago, Zella said: Yes I remember doing a double-take on as well since his birthday seems to be early January the next season when they finally are "celebrating" his birthday. I think they forgot about that when they wrote season 2! Yes, I think they screwed up on Henry's birthday there. That flashback with Zukov is dated 1971, Elizabeth was not showing and not dressed for winter. And it always did confuse me that Henry had an outdoor birthday party and they went to a carnival that weekend in the middle of January? Is the weather really that mild in January in the DC area? But I know Martha confirmed all of that happened in January in a later episode. 1 2 Link to comment
Andy73 August 1, 2022 Share August 1, 2022 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: 3 hours ago, Andy73 said: OMG: Sandra’s “This is my Italian lover, Galliaaaano… “ It can’t be heard… 😀 LOL! How's her pronounciation? Oh beh… it is perfect but let me say It’s a bit of a stereotype... southern Italian 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: Good question. I assume Gabriel's telling the truth about her having another guy she was supposed to be with. Maybe that made Zhukov try to search for somebody who seemed a better fit for her personally. He'd already want to have someone whose skills complimented hers, because they'd probably always want to do that, but maybe his personality seemed less likely to scare her I feel the same. 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: Again, I feel bad for Philip how Elizabeth is just surrounded by people who seem to make her their special project, and nobody's like that for Philip. Yeah… poor Philip. I think he has only been appreciated by the KGB a couple of times: by Claudia when she says to Elizabeth she was wrong about him… and by Gabriel. He said to Philip something like “we know your are the best in your job. 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: I think it was an order to have at least one kid, but Elizabeth had some window about when to do it. If she decided it wasn't a good time she could probably terminate the pregnancy, especially since she'd fulfilled her duty by having the one kid already I agree again with you… so why a second child? I can see Page says Mom, Daddy, give me a little brother…. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 1, 2022 Share August 1, 2022 16 minutes ago, Zella said: I just want to cosign everything you said about Irina and Mischa, @sistermagpie. The more you pick it apart, the more preposterous it is. It's really the biggest criticism I have about the writing, and fortunately, it's not a major part of the story. My guess is they didn't really think through what they were doing early on when they introduced Irina, but it created a mess. That's what I've always thought. And watching it in real time, I basically hoped, after her ep, that they'd just leave it at that, maybe the son existed, maybe not. Because even in that first episode it made no sense. When Philip killed the Afghani guys in S2 I thought he was probably supposed to be thinking of his son the soldier, but it wasn't spoken. So when Gabriel brought it up again, I was not happy. And my heart absolutely dropped when I realized we were meeting him at the end of S5. The writers said something like, "Well, we thought it would be even better if we could actually meet him!" and I thought...why on earth would you think that, since every time it comes up it just highlights how stupid the story is? And basically the way they get around it is to have every single conversation that comes up between Irina or any of her people take place between two people who are already completely up to date with all the details (even when they wouldn't be) that they never ever have to say anything that explains anything. Everyone just vaguely says stuff that's related to the plot. Like, even when Gabriel tells Philip Irina was arrested and then says "You saw her two years ago..." The first part sounds like obviously Irina having run away is a common topic of conversation between them, the second part is like it hasn't been. 16 minutes ago, Zella said: So, this is actually a technical qualm with the show, though I understand why they did this, but apparently the KGB policy was NOT to send single KGB officers abroad to Rezidenturas. They wanted you married, and they often liked to keep the spouse behind as an incentive for you not to defect. So, I think even with her backstory of them no longer really being married would be regarded with suspicion. And a single guy like Oleg (or even Vlad) would never have gotten posted abroad to a Rezidentura apparently. I guess we can hand-wave that away as connections but still. That's interesting--and it makes a lot of sense. I get why on the show they'd want to do otherwise, of course, but it almost does make it seem as single people are the norm. Arkady is married with kids, but everyone else seems single. And it often causes trouble. 5 minutes ago, Andy73 said: I stil have a problem with their birthday. At first I thought Page was born in 68. Easy: 71-3 = 68 but it is possibile 67 too. Actually assuming Henry was born in 71 as you said, it should be in later 71 and the flashback scene should be in the early 71. I can’t get he was born in January. I think the flashback scene date is just wrong--as the flashback to the moment they start trying for Paige could be. It's possible they decided Henry was born in 1971, because all they probably knew in S1 was that it was 1981 and the kids were three years apart with the girl being 13. So they counted backwards and thought Paige was born in 1968. Then when they had a scene where she was pregnant with Henry they subtracted three years from her age and got 1971. Later, when they did the flashback to them trying to try to have a baby for the first time they probably just got lucky that it could still work with the year being 1967. They probably originally thought they started trying in 1967 for a 1968 baby, but as it worked out it could still work as long as we assumed it was early in the year. The same couldn't be said for the second pregnancy flashback. Not that they didn't have time problems later--Season 5 really doesn't work timewise, imo. But everything else works out if you just assume their ages didn't really get solid until later. The first season is the one that introduces Irina, has Zhukov fly into Maryland for a chat with Elizabeth, has Philip sticking on his Clark wig with not even a pin to keep it in place and honest to God used to start off saying "FX gifts The Americans" so... 1 1 1 Link to comment
Zella August 1, 2022 Share August 1, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Domestic Assassin said: Yes, I think they screwed up on Henry's birthday there. That flashback with Zukov is dated 1971, Elizabeth was not showing and not dressed for winter. And it always did confuse me that Henry had an outdoor birthday party and they went to a carnival that weekend in the middle of January? Is the weather really that mild in January in the DC area? But I know Martha confirmed all of that happened in January in a later episode. Yeah I'm trying to reconstruct my thought process, but I think when I saw that flashback in 1, I thought, "Oh, Henry must be a 72 model," and when I saw season 2, I assumed he was turning 10. Then when they said he was 11, I was like, I'm bad at math, but that doesn't check out. LOL And then I actually kind of forgot about it since it seems like afterward they tried to be consistent to what they presented in season 2. Edited August 1, 2022 by Zella 2 Link to comment
Zella August 1, 2022 Share August 1, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: That's interesting--and it makes a lot of sense. I get why on the show they'd want to do otherwise, of course, but it almost does make it seem as single people are the norm. Arkady is married with kids, but everyone else seems single. And it often causes trouble. I was always curious about the security guy who remains unseen but is not at the embassy for the walk-in because he was shopping with his wife. Was that code or was his wife really there in DC with him? Most of the KGB officers I've read about who had wives with them had wives who worked for the embassy or were KGB themselves. I had assumed by him being named, he'd eventually make an appearance, but he never seemed to. Edited August 1, 2022 by Zella 1 Link to comment
Andy73 August 1, 2022 Share August 1, 2022 43 minutes ago, Zella said: So, this is actually a technical qualm with the show, though I understand why they did this, but apparently the KGB policy was NOT to send single KGB officers abroad to Rezidenturas. They wanted you married, and they often liked to keep the spouse behind as an incentive for you not to defect. So, I think even with her backstory of them no longer really being married would be regarded with suspicion. And a single guy like Oleg (or even Vlad) would never have gotten posted abroad to a Rezidentura apparently. I guess we can hand-wave that away as connections but still. Incidentally, adultery in those Rezidentura officers was also regarded poorly. Like, one dude was sent home and kept at a desk for a few years as punishment before he was allowed another overseas posting. And the girl he was cheating with was the daughter of a KGB officer whom he later married, but his superiors were not impressed at all. Oh, congratulation, You are well informed. I didn't know it but everything you said does make a lot of sense 2 Link to comment
Zella August 1, 2022 Share August 1, 2022 Just now, Andy73 said: Oh, congratulation, You are well informed. I didn't know it but everything you said does make a lot of sense Thank you. After watching the show for the first time last year, I ended up doing a lot of reading on the KGB! I've started it up again after rewatching the show. LOL 1 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 1, 2022 Share August 1, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Andy73 said: Oh beh… it is perfect but let me say It’s a bit of a stereotype... southern Italian Hee! Probably that was her fantasy boyfriend. 22 minutes ago, Andy73 said: Yeah… poor Philip. I think he has only been appreciated by the KGB a couple of times: by Claudia when she says to Elizabeth she was wrong about him… and by Gabriel. He said to Philip something like “we know your are the best in your job. That does seem to be a thing with him, that where Elizabeth stood out for her loyalty, he stood out for being really good at this stuff. Of course they're both highly loyal and very good, but these are their central things. 22 minutes ago, Andy73 said: I agree again with you… so why a second child? I can see Page says Mom, Daddy, give me a little brother…. It is a good question--and obviously Elizabeth must have made that decision differently than she made the one with Paige. Even Zhukov knows that Philip would be happy. Maybe he convinced her that it would be good for Paige to have a sibling. Maybe Leanne talked about how good it was for Jared. On one hand it might seem even more average, would give something to distract Paige from only focusing on them (not that it completely worked--LOL). Maybe she felt guilty about how reluctant she was? And frankly, maybe she already loved her daughter and liked the idea of another kid but hid it under all these other reasons, even if she wouldn't have done it again if not for Philip. If Paige asked for a baby brother Elizabeth would just give her a lecture on how she was too poor for a brother growing up and had to make do with a block of wood or something so Paige should just be grateful. Edited August 1, 2022 by sistermagpie 2 Link to comment
Andy73 August 1, 2022 Share August 1, 2022 8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: It is a good question--and obviously Elizabeth must have made that decision differently than she made the one with Paige. Even Zhukov knows that Philip would be happy. Maybe he convinced her that it would be good for Paige to have a sibling. Maybe Leanne talked about how good it was for Jared. On one hand it might seem even more average, would give something to distract Paige from only focusing on them (not that it completely worked--LOL). Maybe she felt guilty about how reluctant she was All of these make sense. this my favorite: 9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: And frankly, maybe she already loved her daughter and liked the idea of another kid but hid it under all these other reasons, even if she wouldn't have done it again if not for Philip 10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: If Paige asked for a baby brother Elizabeth would just give her a lecture on how she was too poor for a brother growing up and had to make do with a block of wood or something so Paige should just be grateful. 😂😂😂😂😂 I laughed for 5 minutes before reply 2 Link to comment
Andy73 August 1, 2022 Share August 1, 2022 The Oath - S1x11 At first Elizabeth’s look is really very aggressive. I still say today oh oh... what now? It hurts for P&E” while i’m seeing Nina’s oath and Arkady talking about illegals, even if I know the story. Nothing to say: tension remains high. Thinking again I don’t feel Nina is so motivated to spy about Illegals for the Americans. Philip tried to reopen the topic but Elizabeth did not catch the assist. What did we say yesterday? All in or not, Liz! If you tell him “Absolutely” we think you accept this new life… I love spies’s tricks! The priest's speech is perfect because Viola regrets what she did, isn’t it? Granny scares me even though she plays Pac-Man; Elizabeth’s make-up is always perfect. LOL! “No knock on your charms there, Romeo.” Never underestimate the power of Clark's charms, Elizabeth! Nina is really hurt by Vlad's death. Apartment scene… We have already talked about this. I still can see how Elizabeth is sad here… It's really an original way to make a proposal... but for God, Philip... Philip is a really good observer. He figured out which keys he has to press with Martha! Page and Elizabeth dinner scene. I forgot Page sentences "I don't want to fight for his feelings. Either he's into me or he's not.” Page, does it apply to your mother too? Elizabeth admits he was there is great! I feels she is completely honest. She gives up he conversation and she goes into crisis. I like this conversation: I feel mother and daughter so close. I feel Clark's speaking honestly about his marriage. I agree with Martha: it is so sad! Martha says she trusts her parents. It’s convincing. Ironic but convincing When Philip ask Elizabeth to be there she looks him like “What??? Are you crazy??? Her looks was funny. Claudia's disguise was wonderful, Elizabeth’s was terrible. Elizabeth seems honestly touched by ceremony. Elizabeth “You and I were never really married” and “I know they’re just word people say, do you think things would have been differente between us if we said them” are an assist to Philip? Why do you ask it? Why things would have been different? And Nina surprises us all 2 Link to comment
Zella August 2, 2022 Share August 2, 2022 1 hour ago, Andy73 said: Claudia's disguise was wonderful, Elizabeth’s was terrible. I laugh so hard every time I watch that wedding scene, and we see his "family" for the first time. 2 Link to comment
Anela August 2, 2022 Share August 2, 2022 I never understood why people were so hard on Paige, at least at first. I'm on season two, and am feeling less sympathy for Nina, than I did on the first watch, when it aired. I also think that Stan was stupid to think she actually had feelings for him. He had his wife waiting at home, until she gave up on the marriage. 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 2, 2022 Share August 2, 2022 1 hour ago, Andy73 said: The priest's speech is perfect because Viola regrets what she did, isn’t it? And he says that lies are the devil's "sword and shield," right? Isn't that the symbol of the KGB? 1 hour ago, Andy73 said: It's really an original way to make a proposal... but for God, Philip... I always wonder if he got the idea from Anna Karenina. 1 hour ago, Andy73 said: Page and Elizabeth dinner scene. I forgot Page sentences "I don't want to fight for his feelings. Either he's into me or he's not.” Page, does it apply to your mother too? Yes, this an early sign of how honestly is, for logical reasons, so central to Paige. She doesn't want any relationship that's based on manipulating the person or whatever. Neither does Elizabeth, but she's got a lot of experience with it. Also love how in S4 when Paige and Matthew finally kiss it's in this kitchen and Paige makes a point of making a joke about the girl she's so jealous of here, as if she still has a little insecurity about her, even though Sara's perfectly nice to her. Matthew probably has some insecurity about her too, frankly, since she actually had musical talent. Also so cute how Paige is obviously wearing a new fancy shirt she's wearing to both her important events. 1 hour ago, Andy73 said: I feel Clark's speaking honestly about his marriage. I agree with Martha: it is so sad! And smart to make it seem like he's sharing a secret about himself. 1 hour ago, Andy73 said: Claudia's disguise was wonderful, Elizabeth’s was terrible. I think Elizabeth's wig might actually be a stunt wig for Clark. 1 hour ago, Andy73 said: Elizabeth seems honestly touched by ceremony. She'll get her own eventually! 53 minutes ago, Zella said: I laugh so hard every time I watch that wedding scene, and we see his "family" for the first time. I love when Martha's parent see the family resemblance, by which they mean they've noticed everyone's wearing matching wigs and glasses. 36 minutes ago, Anela said: I never understood why people were so hard on Paige, at least at first. I'm on season two, and am feeling less sympathy for Nina, than I did on the first watch, when it aired. I also think that Stan was stupid to think she actually had feelings for him. He had his wife waiting at home, until she gave up on the marriage. Yeah, he's literally running away from his wife becauase she's a real wife and spinning rather ridiculous fantasies with Nina, with whom he'd have nothing in common if they were just in a bar. 3 Link to comment
Zella August 2, 2022 Share August 2, 2022 29 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: I love when Martha's parent see the family resemblance, by which they mean they've noticed everyone's wearing matching wigs and glasses. LOL YES! What little we see of Martha's parents in general crack me up. They seem perfectly lovely but kind of quirky. I love how opinionated her dad is about Fiddler on the Roof in another episode. 1 hour ago, Anela said: I'm on season two, and am feeling less sympathy for Nina, than I did on the first watch, when it aired. Nina is such an interesting character to me because I understand why she does what she does--and I sometimes even admire her for the decisions she makes--but I can't say I feel sorry for her. She is one of those people who just seems to continually dig holes for herself and seems to be astonishingly naive about what defying the KGB means for someone who is an actual KGB agent. 2 Link to comment
Zella August 2, 2022 Share August 2, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Anela said: He had his wife waiting at home, until she gave up on the marriage. 37 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Yeah, he's literally running away from his wife becauase she's a real wife and spinning rather ridiculous fantasies with Nina, with whom he'd have nothing in common if they were just in a bar. It always amuses me how stunned Stan is when Sandra just tells him she's probably going to go cheat on him after what he's been doing. Ordinarily, I think it would be such a cruel thing to tell your spouse, but he really had it coming. It also leads to one of my favorite underrated Arkady lines. "A romantic interlude. Very cosmopolitan." He must be thinking, wow, these bourgies tell their spouses some weird shit. LOL Edited August 2, 2022 by Zella 4 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 2, 2022 Share August 2, 2022 15 minutes ago, Zella said: LOL YES! What little we see of Martha's parents in general crack me up. They seem perfectly lovely but kind of quirky. I love how opinionated her dad is about Fiddler on the Roof in another episode. Well, you know, he does sing in the church choir, so, he knows from flat! Also I love thtat her dad is Larry from Three's Company, which would still be on TV in 1981. 15 minutes ago, Zella said: Nina is such an interesting character to me because I understand why she does what she does--and I sometimes even admire her for the decisions she makes--but I can't say I feel sorry for her. She is one of those people who just seems to continually dig holes for herself and seems to be astonishingly naive about what defying the KGB means for someone who is an actual KGB agent. Sometimes the most amazing thing to remember about her is that she really does, as Stan says at first, get herself into this mess by deciding to use her KGB job to get into black market dealing. It's just completely dumb and she's obviously not very good at it because she gets caught pretty easily. She says she was sending back stuff to her family but come on, it doesn't seem like she's keeping them alive or anything. From the way she mentions the guy back home who also does stuff like that it seems like she just spent her life thinking she was playing on the level of low-level mischief in her hometown where she could keep changing her mind about what she wanted to do! 12 minutes ago, Zella said: It always amuses me how stunned Stan is when Sandra just tells him she's probably going to go cheat on him after what he's been doing. Ordinarily, I think it would be such a cruel thing to tell your spouse, but he really had it coming. It also leads to one of my favorite underrated Arkady lines. "A romantic interlude. Very cosmopolitan." He must be thinking, wow, these bourgies tell their spouses some weird shit. LOL LOL, poor Arkady. I love that scene with Sandra because she really is being perfectly honest and fair with him. She knows he's having an affair and won't let him play the victim. In fact, in both their big confrontation scenes she totally gets that his whole thing is that he has to be the "good guy" so he's desperate to be able to turn the story of their marriage into one where he was the wronged party. But neither his wife or son see him that way. There's even that moment where Philip comes crawling to him to apologize for having talked to Sandra without telling him and he plays Stan perfectly by assuring Stan that it was all about him. Then Stan has the nerve to relent by saying he knew Philip wouldn't have an affair with Sandra but couldn't trust...Sandra not to do it? Even though what he's suggesting couldn't be farther from Sandra's actual personality. Btw, I still don't know what to make of Arkady's weird advice to Stan about not telling women he loves them. 3 Link to comment
Zella August 2, 2022 Share August 2, 2022 (edited) 25 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Sometimes the most amazing thing to remember about her is that she really does, as Stan says at first, get herself into this mess by deciding to use her KGB job to get into black market dealing. It's just completely dumb and she's obviously not very good at it because she gets caught pretty easily. She says she was sending back stuff to her family but come on, it doesn't seem like she's keeping them alive or anything. Yes! It was really foolish. 25 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: In fact, in both their big confrontation scenes she totally gets that his whole thing is that he has to be the "good guy" so he's desperate to be able to turn the story of their marriage into one where he was the wronged party. Yeah I think a big part of his actions toward Oleg, where he almost blows up his own career over it, is that he is very desperate to be seen as the good guy. I think deep down Stan knows he isn't, but it's very important for him to be seen that way. 25 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Btw, I still don't know what to make of Arkady's weird advice to Stan about not telling women he loves them. I've seen a lot of people suggest he was basically sabotaging Nina there and tips Stan off that Nina is a double agent, but I don't think so. I've always interpreted it in light of the fact that he says that after Stan has expressed disbelief that the KGB will follow through and release her. I think Arkady thinks Stan is a stupid sap--which is not an unfair assessment--and I think he's trying to convey that he really will let Nina go, and even more so, Stan can count on it so much that he'll get some free advice on being in a relationship with a Russian woman since Arkady promised them that they can go wherever they want together after Stan delivers ECHO. Because his exact words aren't to not tell women he loves them--it's to tell him not to tell a Russian woman that so much because it makes her disrespect you. I think he thinks he's working an aspect of Stan that he knows from Nina's reports that he feels vulnerable about--his personal relationships with women and his love for Nina--and trying to use more of a carrot approach on him after the stick approach from the previous episode when he was quite a bit more cold and threatening with Stan. But I think it backfires because it just reminds Stan how truly stupid it is for him to think that he has any sort of a future with Nina. Edited August 2, 2022 by Zella 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 2, 2022 Share August 2, 2022 31 minutes ago, Zella said: Yeah I think a big part of his actions toward Oleg, where he almost blows up his own career over it, is that he is very desperate to be seen as the good guy. I think deep down Stan knows he isn't, but it's very important for him to be seen that way. I absolutely see it that way--particularly because Oleg himself just did something so obviously noble. I don't think he could stand the idea of repaying that by using him as if he were...a KGB spy and Stan was a FBI counterintel agent! Sandra also has that talk with Philip where Philip tells her about Stan nearly beating him up (and encourages her to get Matthew to start visiting) and she says Stan always has to be the tough guy. She seems to know Stan really well and over and over comes back to that idea, that Stan has an image of who he should be and it's upsetting to him when it's challenge. No wonder he likes the way Henry looks at him versus how Matthew does. In fact, that even reminds me of when Stan's telling her how he keeps a lot of stuff that happens at work a secret to protect her and Sandra says she never asked for that. Stan replies with his bit of wisdom from nowhere in particular that in order to have a happy family he has to do that. 31 minutes ago, Zella said: I've seen a lot of people suggest he was basically sabotaging Nina there and tips Stan off that Nina is a double agent, but I don't think so. I've always interpreted it in light of the fact that he says that after Stan has expressed disbelief that the KGB will follow through and release her. I think Arkady thinks Stan is a stupid sap--which is not an unfair assessment--and I think he's trying to convey that he really will let Nina go, and even more so, Stan can count on it so much that he'll get some free advice on being in a relationship with a Russian woman since Arkady promised them that they can go wherever they want together after Stan delivers ECHO. Because his exact words aren't to not tell women he loves them--it's to tell him not to tell a Russian woman that so much because it makes her disrespect you. I think he thinks he's working an aspect of Stan that he knows from Nina's reports that he feels vulnerable about--his personal relationships with women and his love for Nina--and trying to use more of a carrot approach on him after the stick approach from the previous episode when he was quite a bit more cold and threatening with Stan. But I think it backfires because it just reminds Stan how truly stupid it is for him to think that he has any sort of a future with Nina. OMG, thank you so much. I never understood it. It always did sound to me like he was sabotaging Nina but at the same time I didn't believe he was doing that at all. This finally makes sense to me! LOL. Writing that just made me remember how it was sometimes a thing on the boards about Philip and Elizabeth saying I love you. Philip says it twice to her--when he's apologizing for lying about Irina and in the note when he goes to meet the colonel, and he says to Henry that he and Elizabeth love each other, but Elizabeth never says it to him at all. I wonder if Arkady would approve. 2 Link to comment
Zella August 2, 2022 Share August 2, 2022 5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: In fact, that even reminds me of when Stan's telling her how he keeps a lot of stuff that happens at work a secret to protect her and Sandra says she never asked for that. Stan replies with his bit of wisdom from nowhere in particular that in order to have a happy family he has to do that. Yes! I found that scene really interesting this time around. He was so reluctant to talk to her and just assumed that was what she wanted without ever bothering to ask. I find it fascinating that he never wanted to tell Sandra about his work life, and to his credit, he seems to have learned some things and is trying to be more open with Renee. But considering she may very well be a spy herself, he picked the worst possible person to confide in. LOL Speaking of Renee, what do you all think about her? When I watched the first time, I was super on the fence about whether she was a spy. But this second watch? I am 99% sure she is also a spy. 8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: OMG, thank you so much. I never understood it. It always did sound to me like he was sabotaging Nina but at the same time I didn't believe he was doing that at all. This finally makes sense to me! You're welcome! :) The funniest part about it to me is, even if Arkady was trying to sabotage her by tipping off Stan about her--which I also never believed--I don't think Stan ever realized that Nina had been spying on him. I don't think he would have worked with Oleg to try to help her in season 3--as dumb as that venture was--if he knew she'd been spying on him. Which just underscores further how little he ever truly knew about her. 10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: I wonder if Arkady would approve. He would nod approvingly and offer Philip some of his choicest vodka but be circumspect in praising him too lavishly. 😂 2 Link to comment
Andy73 August 2, 2022 Share August 2, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, sistermagpie said: And he says that lies are the devil's "sword and shield," right? Isn't that the symbol of the KGB? Oh yes, it is! Good catch! 5 hours ago, sistermagpie said: I always wonder if he got the idea from Anna Karenina. Oh really? I’sorry I don’t know, I have never read it!😊 5 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Yes, this an early sign of how honestly is, for logical reasons, so central to Paige. She doesn't want any relationship that's based on manipulating the person or whatever. Neither does Elizabeth, but she's got a lot of experience with it Oh yes. It was the first reason to broke with Matthew, and honestly I did’t remember they kissed in Page’s kitchen as well as her line about Sara. You always surprise me! But I remember I felt that scene really real. 5 hours ago, sistermagpie said: She'll get her own eventually! Oh yes… they had been good! OMG that scene… I felt it is so real, it is so conquered that I cried for happiness. It is a bit stupid, isn’t it? 6 hours ago, Anela said: I'm on season two, and am feeling less sympathy for Nina, than I did on the first watch, when it aired. I also think that Stan was stupid to think she actually had feelings for him. He had his wife waiting at home, until she gave up on the marriage. Nina always does what she thinks is right to do... but sometimes she seems so naive to challenge the KGB. Stan, dear Stan, I really don’t understand you. You have your wife who loves you… what are you looking for…. And yes, with your experience in field, you can’t think she can manipulate you? 5 hours ago, Zella said: Nina is such an interesting character to me because I understand why she does what she does I feel the same for all characters. it is because each of them has a well defined personality. 4 hours ago, Zella said: I've seen a lot of people suggest he was basically sabotaging Nina there and tips Stan off that Nina is a double agent, but I don't think so. I've always interpreted it in light of the fact that he says that after Stan has expressed disbelief that the KGB will follow through and release her. I think Arkady thinks Stan is a stupid sap--which is not an unfair assessment--and I think he's trying to convey that he really will let Nina go, and even more so, Stan can count on it so much that he'll get some free advice on being in a relationship with a Russian woman since Arkady promised them that they can go wherever they want together after Stan delivers ECHO. Because his exact words aren't to not tell women he loves them--it's to tell him not to tell a Russian woman that so much because it makes her disrespect you Thank you so much. I never though Arkady was sabotaging Nina. It would have been stupid in that time! Your reasoning is perfect. 3 hours ago, sistermagpie said: about Philip and Elizabeth saying I love you. Philip says it twice to her--when he's apologizing for lying about Irina and in the note when he goes to meet the colonel, and he says to Henry that he and Elizabeth love each other, but Elizabeth never says it to him at all. I wonder if Arkady would approve. I’m sorry I don't want to be fussy but Philip tells her I love you 3 times. The last time in Travel Agent. I love that scene!!! You are right about Elizabeth: she never said it him! It sounds a bit strange. Surely she does a lot of romantic gestures that prove it but… 3 hours ago, Zella said: Yes! I found that scene really interesting this time around. He was so reluctant to talk to her and just assumed that was what she wanted without ever bothering to ask. I find it fascinating that he never wanted to tell Sandra about his work life I think Stan wants to be seen as a good guy too. 3 hours ago, Zella said: Speaking of Renee, what do you all think about her? When I watched the first time, I was super on the fence about whether she was a spy. But this second watch? I am 99% sure she is also a spy. OMG Renee. Honestly? I still don’t know! I mean, A spy? She are working for.. who? KGB? No sense at all. Other Americans agency? Why? At least I love that JJs have left the matter open.. Edited August 2, 2022 by Andy73 2 Link to comment
Domestic Assassin August 2, 2022 Share August 2, 2022 I'm 100% convinced Renee is not a spy. Perfectly content to die on this hill. When Elizabeth asked Philip why the idea of it bothered him so much and he responded "I don't want Stan to be like Martha" with seemingly no awareness that he is the one who is essentially Martha-ing Stan, I've been convinced he is just projecting his own guilt onto Renee. Sure, there are an awful lot of coincidences that lean to Renee being a spy, but ultimately it just seems like an absurd waste of resources for too little gain. It's not like Stan could be as easily manipulated into providing information unknowingly like Martha. I doubt that she'd get that much more out of Stan than Philip and Elizabeth do. Especially after Stan left Counterintelligence, I doubt she'd hang around 3 years just to eventually get into FBI HR. HR people don't have to be married to FBI employees to get hired, but even if they did, why Stan and not any other agent? I also don't find the argument that she's really spying on Philip and Elizabeth convincing, and the Mossad theory is just ridiculous. But ultimately, I just find it a more interesting story if she isn't a spy. 1 2 Link to comment
Zella August 2, 2022 Share August 2, 2022 (edited) I think seeing her not as a spy is a perfectly reasonable conclusion--I do love that the showrunners left it open-ended. I just can't get over the fact that he meets her at the gym right after the KGB has lost all their internal FBI sources (mail robot bug, Martha). And we know the KGB knows he uses that gym since Philip has reported on their racquetball conversations and that he is vulnerable to women, and Stan early on mentions she's just like dating a female Philip. That being said, I usually don't like Laurie Holden. Like, I hated her so much on The Walking Dead, and I groaned when I saw she was in the show, but I actually really do like her performance as Renee. I think she plays it in such a way that either theory works, which I'm sure isn't easy to do. Edited August 2, 2022 by Zella 4 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 2, 2022 Share August 2, 2022 17 hours ago, Zella said: Yes! I found that scene really interesting this time around. He was so reluctant to talk to her and just assumed that was what she wanted without ever bothering to ask. She's literally telling him that his refusal to talk is ruining their marriage and he's like, "I'm refusing to talk to protect our great marriage!" LOL. 14 hours ago, Andy73 said: Oh really? I’sorry I don’t know, I have never read it!😊 It's a vague memory to me now, but I swear there's some part where two people talk by just saying the first letter of what they want to say to the other person. Iirc, it's a love scene. I just thought of it for some reason when I saw that proposal, maybe because it's such an odd little thing he does. And maybe I thought it might have been a bit of a challenge for him because presumably he's never proposed to anyone. 14 hours ago, Andy73 said: I’m sorry I don't want to be fussy but Philip tells her I love you 3 times. The last time in Travel Agent. I love that scene!!! You are right about Elizabeth: she never said it him! It sounds a bit strange. Surely she does a lot of romantic gestures that prove it but… OMG, of course - I left out the best one! At the time whether or not Philip loved Martha was a big question. I wasn't sure why--I think it was because Elizabeth was so insecure it seemed like it must be a real issue. So I love how when she makes it clear she thinks that his first response is, "Are you crazy?" It just never occurred to him all this time he was misunderstanding her attitude. 14 hours ago, Andy73 said: OMG Renee. Honestly? I still don’t know! I mean, A spy? She are working for.. who? KGB? No sense at all. Other Americans agency? Why? At least I love that JJs have left the matter open.. 8 hours ago, Domestic Assassin said: I'm 100% convinced Renee is not a spy. Perfectly content to die on this hill. When Elizabeth asked Philip why the idea of it bothered him so much and he responded "I don't want Stan to be like Martha" with seemingly no awareness that he is the one who is essentially Martha-ing Stan, I've been convinced he is just projecting his own guilt onto Renee. Sure, there are an awful lot of coincidences that lean to Renee being a spy, but ultimately it just seems like an absurd waste of resources for too little gain. It's not like Stan could be as easily manipulated into providing information unknowingly like Martha. I doubt that she'd get that much more out of Stan than Philip and Elizabeth do. Especially after Stan left Counterintelligence, I doubt she'd hang around 3 years just to eventually get into FBI HR. HR people don't have to be married to FBI employees to get hired, but even if they did, why Stan and not any other agent? I also don't find the argument that she's really spying on Philip and Elizabeth convincing, and the Mossad theory is just ridiculous. But ultimately, I just find it a more interesting story if she isn't a spy. 5 hours ago, Zella said: I think seeing her not as a spy is a perfectly reasonable conclusion--I do love that the showrunners left it open-ended. I just can't get over the fact that he meets her at the gym right after the KGB has lost all their internal FBI sources (mail robot bug, Martha). And we know the KGB knows he uses that gym since Philip has reported on their racquetball conversations and that he is vulnerable to women, and Stan early on mentions she's just like dating a female Philip. That being said, I usually don't like Laurie Holden. Like, I hated her so much on The Walking Dead, and I groaned when I saw she was in the show, but I actually really do like her performance as Renee. I think she plays it in such a way that either theory works, which I'm sure isn't easy to do. So my feelings about her at the time were mostly just being annoyed I was supposed to be guessing when I didn't care in a way that made that fun. The show's strength is how the characters are believable, and sometimes that means fudging on the technical operational details, like keeping the teacup couple in an apartment with a fire escape or how Philip manages with Martha those 3 months Elizabeth is gone . Renee just leaned way heavily into this kind of factual operational question and nothing else. Speaking technically, I'm with DA. Having her be a spy is completely stupid. It's dedicating what seems to be an entire Illegal (people we've seen do a million jobs unless they're somebody like William with a special skill like science) just to fake-marry a guy who used to be but no longer is in counterintelligence and has 2 Illegals covering him already. A guy who, btw, has already shown himself ready to commit light treason for somebody he's sleeping with while forcing to work for him and somebody he doesn't even really like. This is not a guy who needs a marital vow to consider betraying his office. In fact, jokes on them--and you'd think Philip would have made this clear in his reports--the LAST relationship you want to use to get to this guy is a wife! And if Renee is a spy, she's not even particularly useful, since she doesn't pick up on the fact that Stan is suspicious of the Jennings again. But clearly I was supposed to wonder about it since Philip was, and if it's just guilt that's driving him to paranoia he should have been able to check her out enough or have maybe Elizabeth point out how it was ridiculous so the story would be about Philip being paranoid. Instead it was all part of a big tease. Which meant that it was also a part of the tease that Renee comes across as barely human--and that's really bad if she's supposed to be a real person. But the one thing I land on that's interesting to me is that either Renee is a spy or she's some other kind of total con-job who makes mistakes when she tells stories about herself or she's not a mentally well person. And what's important about that is that anybody except Stan can clearly see that--including Philip and, I imagine, Matthew and probably Sandra. But for Stan, she's the perfect wife because all she does all day is let him see a reflection of himself that he likes. She's a Stepford wife, the exact opposite of the clearly real woman he started out with who knew him really well. I feel like if I watched the Stan/Sandra scene in the pilot next to the scene where Renee asks him about working at the FBI it would seem like a horror movie. She makes Clark look like Amador! So I feel like she probably makes everyone else uncomfortable but Stan thinks her fembot quality is a feature, not a bug. 3 Link to comment
Zella August 3, 2022 Share August 3, 2022 3 hours ago, sistermagpie said: I feel like if I watched the Stan/Sandra scene in the pilot next to the scene where Renee asks him about working at the FBI it would seem like a horror movie. LOL There is something kind of Stepford like or fembot-like about her. I think that is part of what pings as spy to me, though you're right it would be clumsy for a spy to be that obvious. I do really wonder if Stan ended up divorcing her or if he just decided to deal with the uncertainty after Philip's warning. I honestly wouldn't be surprised in general if Stan's character had a nervous breakdown after the end of the show. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 3, 2022 Share August 3, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Zella said: LOL There is something kind of Stepford like or fembot-like about her. I think that is part of what pings as spy to me, though you're right it would be clumsy for a spy to be that obvious. I do really wonder if Stan ended up divorcing her or if he just decided to deal with the uncertainty after Philip's warning. I honestly wouldn't be surprised in general if Stan's character had a nervous breakdown after the end of the show. I think Laurie Holden or the writers were sort of coy about it--I remember she said something about if you went back and rewatched you'd see things that showed what she was doing or something, but that seems to just be a way of saying, "Hey, remember all those times when it seemed like Renee was being really obvious about actually being a spy? Well, she was being a spy!" I mean, it's not like there's any specific alternate idea presented for why they wrote a weirdly detail-specific anecdote for her that had a detail wrong. She never takes out an insurance policy on Stan that we hear about. She doesn't have any tattoos that look like they might have recently have been a swastika back in Arkansas. She's too young to have stolen her dead commander's dog tags in Korea. There's no scene where if you listen really closely you'll hear a radio report about a dangerous lunatic who escaped from a mental hospital with a racketball racket. She's a spy or she's not. Also, with the time jump, we had no way of knowing how much anybody knew about her so that was another dead end. If she's an Illegal that's checkable. As Gaad says about Joyce in S1, either she's real or she's not. If Stan wants to check he can check. But yeah, I think Stan's very much overdo for a breakdown. Edited August 3, 2022 by sistermagpie missing word 3 Link to comment
Andy73 August 5, 2022 Share August 5, 2022 The Colonel S1x13 - I saw it few days ago. I'm posting now because I wasn't well. Also this time I liked it a lot. - I start from the end: I agree with what @sistermagpie wrote in a beautiful post on another forum: the final montage is one of the most beautiful and structured ever seen. Everyone spies on everyone while Peter Gabriel sings “games without frontiers”. Just a break to tell us that this is not a Spy stuff: a completely naked and vulnerable woman asks her man to come back to her in the most honest way possible. And tell me if his look doesn’t move you a little. Then the song starts again, signaling a return to Spy stuff.. Page takes his first steps with her parents. - Back to P&E. It’s true that at least Elizabeth is asking to get back together in the right way, but Philip, unlike the last two episodes, makes a move: he entrusts her the kids and signs the note with “I love you”. He knows the mission could go to south and despite everything that happened this is the last thing he would like to tell him. - In this last episode P&E did not seem separate. -I’ve seen link to the Pilot: in the pilot P&E are chasing, now they are running; there’s still someone looking for something about them... Stan first, Page now. Now, like in pilot, they found again each other. This is also a link to S6 where they also found their way back together. In S1 they had to “learn how to get married” as Clark told to Martha; in S6 they treasured what they learned: Philip tells her everything he’s doing with Oleg honestly (unlike S1 when he lies about Irina), Elizabeth understands him: she doesn’t push him under a bus... that’s a quote... and she doesn’t run to Claudia. As in S1, in S6 Philip saves Elizabeth with the famous topsy-curvy call and Elizabeth does the two romantic gestures: he takes the real wedding rings and then share them in the woods. That look of Elizabeth will be impressed on me for quite a while.. Another connection to S6: In both finale ep. spy stuff are going bad, but P&E thinks about the kids and what’s best for them. - Spy things worked really well here. The Russians expected a setup... unfortunately it was the wrong one. - Philip’s line “Elizabeth” when he realizes she's in trouble is wonderful.... And he starts running, like in S6. Run Phil, run. - I really liked Arkady in this episode: he's really a man who can make decisions. He has grown a lot over the course of the season but he has always been consistent. - Claudia showed a human side.... Would you have said that? - And Nina saved the Illegals. - In real life P&E would never have managed to escape... but if the FBI didn’t work a little badly here, we wouldn’t have a series. I bought it well. - At least: great episode that closes a great season! 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 6, 2022 Share August 6, 2022 14 hours ago, Andy73 said: The Colonel S1x13 - I saw it few days ago. I'm posting now because I wasn't well. I hope you're feeling better! 14 hours ago, Andy73 said: - I start from the end: I agree with what @sistermagpie wrote in a beautiful post on another forum: the final montage is one of the most beautiful and structured ever seen. Everyone spies on everyone while Peter Gabriel sings “games without frontiers”. Just a break to tell us that this is not a Spy stuff: a completely naked and vulnerable woman asks her man to come back to her in the most honest way possible. And tell me if his look doesn’t move you a little. Then the song starts again, signaling a return to Spy stuff.. Page takes his first steps with her parents. I remember the first time watching this ep and being so thrilled to hear they were using this song--it's such a fun ending! 14 hours ago, Andy73 said: in the pilot P&E are chasing, now they are running; there’s still someone looking for something about them... Stan first, Page now. I never made that connection--it is very cool. Of course now this ep is so amazing for how much it reflects the last season. 14 hours ago, Andy73 said: - Spy things worked really well here. The Russians expected a setup... unfortunately it was the wrong one. This is a really fun twist, especially with the slow burn of that Weinberger bug, with Viola and Nina both confessing in the last ep. One person who didn't confess was Stan, when Nina confronted him about killing Vlad, and he's getting played here. 14 hours ago, Andy73 said: - I really liked Arkady in this episode: he's really a man who can make decisions. He has grown a lot over the course of the season but he has always been consistent. And sometimes it seems like the times things don't work out for him is when he lets somebody convince him to do something he didn't want to do. 14 hours ago, Andy73 said: - And Nina saved the Illegals. Great set up with how she specifically didn't tell Stan about the Weinberger bug earlier. 2 Link to comment
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