The Americans - General Discussion

[sistermagpie]

22 hours ago, Umbelina said:

No, I was talking about her parents constantly saying how great Paige was, the smart stuff.  They were downright shocked, and Paige was pissed when Henry became the real deal in that family.

But that's not because Paige was previously a brilliant student, it was because Paige was the responsible one who did all her homework and studied and got good grades while Henry ignored school when he wasn't interested in it and so got bad grades. There's times where one of them defends her capabilities, but they don't just talk about how objectively exceptional or impressive she is.

22 hours ago, Umbelina said:

My point was, losing the kids (the way the show portrayed it) didn't have the emotional gut punch the writers kept saying it did in interviews.  At all.  The fact that they completely ignored that Paige will be in prison, and Henry a ward of the court and no longer in the school he loves, or with the friends he's made, and the bright future that seemed inevitable.

Yes, on the contrary I think they were trying to say the opposite especially with Henry.  Paige's future is obviously unknown, but they set Henry up until college with hints he'll be set for that too. That's part of why Philip knows leaving him is the right thing to do. Within the universe of the show, imo, Henry's settled. He was left behind to not interfere with his life as much.

23 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Losing each other would have had the impact though, at least for Phillip, and him choosing his kids over his unhealthy obsession with Elizabeth would have made me stand up and cheer, and feel sad for both of them, feel that they really did pay a price for murdering so many innocent people.

Honestly, I think Elizabeth needs Philip more than vice versa, even though he'd be devastated to lose her. But MMV. She just wouldn't admit it immediately.

[Umbelina]

15 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, on the contrary I think they were trying to say the opposite especially with Henry.  Paige's future is obviously unknown, but they set Henry up until college with hints he'll be set for that too. That's part of why Philip knows leaving him is the right thing to do. Within the universe of the show, imo, Henry's settled. He was left behind to not interfere with his life as much.

Which is utter nonsense.  He's a minor, and he will be under suspicion and questioned by the FBI for years.  There is no adult to take him, since Paige will be in prison for her many crimes, including treason and accessory to several murders.  Stan will also be in prison, because there is no way in hell Paige will stand up under questioning, and she will out him.  He'll probably be in a group home, far away from his cushy school.

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Honestly, I think Elizabeth needs Philip more than vice versa, even though he'd be devastated to lose her. But MMV. She just wouldn't admit it immediately.

Yes, I agree, and said that in the other post about a preferred ending.

Watching Phillip suffer the loss, and then watching Elizabeth finally "get it" would have been much more impactful as an ending.

[Roseanna]

On 8/10/2020 at 9:48 PM, Umbelina said:

Stuff that would or could have made it better for me:

1. Let the Jennings talk during that long travel.  What a cop out to make it all silent.  Better yet, bag that whole ending and never send them back to the USSR at all.  Let Phillip "win" for once, and turn themselves in to the USA, cut a deal, save Stan, and be able to see their children again, or at least not ruin Stan and the kids' lives forever. 
2. OR, have Phillip finally stand up to Elizabeth, and let THAT be their big loss/payoff for all the murders and dastardly deeds they've done.  Elizabeth returns to the nearly-over USSR herself, but Phillip stays in the USA, saving Stan and the kids.  Phillip and Elizabeth losing each other, their great loves, would be far more impactful to me than anything else, and allow hope for Stan and the kids.

As you may probably already know based on our previous discussions, dear @Umbelina, I wouldn't like those endings at all. "Turning themselves to the USA, cut a deal" would suit only as an ending of a usual, mediocre show. 

I believe that the writers' intention was all along not to show how horrible Soviet spies are but what horrible things spying does to people, regardless they are "us" or "them". Otherwise, why to create such characters as Oleg and (partly) Nina? Or why take along such issues as South Africa where P&E without doubt helped "the righteous cause" in the time when Nelson Mandela was regarded as a terrorist by the US?

I also believed that the ending would be a conflict between Philip and Elizabeth but that it would end in tragedy: f.ex. one shot another and mourn forever because of it. But I am satisfied with the end as it was because it was consistent with the series.  

  

[Roseanna]

I just read a novel by Jan Guillou, Blå stjärnan (Blue star), about a Swedish-Norwegian woman who during the WW2 worked for SOE in Norway and for the Swedish intelligence in Sweden. After killing German soldiers during a rescue mission in Norway, she got an order to seduce a German officer and simply thought that killing people is much worse than using sex.

After that, I think Paige's immaturity was shown by it that it was using sex for spying she regarded most horrible - and that after seeing her mom kill two men (who attacked them but nevertheless). Or if we leave killing out, is making people to like you and then misusing their trust without sex any better?  

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, Roseanna said:

After that, I think Paige's immaturity was shown by it that it was using sex for spying she regarded most horrible - and that after seeing her mom kill two men (who attacked them but nevertheless). Or if we leave killing out, is making people to like you and then misusing their trust without sex any better?  

I haven't rewatched S6 since it aired, but when I think about it now it seems like this issue is pretty close to Paige's arc there--one I didn't really see before. I think what we're seeing is her having been "on the job" just long enough to begin to look around and see how it isn't giving her the solutions she thought it would and that she could pretend it did in the years where she was just imagining doing it.

One of those things she realizes was wrong was the idea that she can have real relationships with people since they know the secret. The whole "do you use sex" discussion is a great symbol for that because it's a false intimacy imo. Not only is it something Elizabeth is lying to Paige about even when confronted directly, but it shows just how much they manipulate people. Paige herself says, she's not afraid of dying (granted, that's probably because it's just not a real fear for her), but she is afraid of being alone, and her only friends are her mother and Claudia who pretend to be friends with people for a living.

Like when Paige tells Elizabeth that a guy she likes has access to secret information, Elizabeth, who earlier claimed that honeytrapping didn't happen, shows that honeytrapping is so common she can't imagine Paige isn't trying to do it. What's worse, she tells Paige she should be "controlling the conversation" with him, suggesting that Elizabeth never has honest interactions with people. Paige gets pretty close to admitting the truth to herself in that ep, imo, but then Elizabeth and Claudia suck her in again with their girl party where they talk about how normal their sex lives are. Claudia tries to introduce the subject of sex exchange when she mentions sleeping with a soldier for food, but Paige basically signals that no, this is not something she's prepared to accept.

All of this is happening, imo, on a naive level for Paige--I don't think she's supposed to be able to truly understand the reality of either murder or honeytrapping. But she knows what she feels like is being done to her, and what she fears, and that's always been more related to the honeytrapping than the murder.

 

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

she is afraid of being alone, and her only friends are her mother and Claudia who pretend to be friends with people for a living.

But why is she alone? She had friends and she used to play basketball (or something like that), and then she abandoned all to go to the church group and then she was disappointed with with Pastor Tim, she turned to her mom who she knew was a Soveit spy and let her to make her one too. Why not move to California and study there?  

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Claudia tries to introduce the subject of sex exchange when she mentions sleeping with a soldier for food, but Paige basically signals that no, this is not something she's prepared to accept.

It's like Paige doesn't know anything about history - countless women in occupied countries did that with German and American soldiers , too. Not that there weren't romances, too.   

Edited August 25, 2020 by Roseanna
adding one word

[Roseanna]

On 8/14/2020 at 8:56 PM, Umbelina said:

Which is utter nonsense.  He's a minor, and he will be under suspicion and questioned by the FBI for years.  There is no adult to take him, since Paige will be in prison for her many crimes, including treason and accessory to several murders. 

That seems strange. Can the FBI really behave like that? Even in Czar's Russia, when Lenin's older brother was executed for attempting to murder the Czar, his family was in no way punished, on the contrary Lenin could study in the university. 

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

That seems strange. Can the FBI really behave like that? Even in Czar's Russia, when Lenin's older brother was executed for attempting to murder the Czar, his family was in no way punished, on the contrary Lenin could study in the university. 

He's a child, so he will need to be in protective custody since his sister and Stan will be in prison.  He will be questioned, because his sister and parents are KGB spies, and they will need to know what he knows, and also if he is as well.

[sistermagpie]

21 hours ago, Roseanna said:

But why is she alone? She had friends and she used to play basketball (or something like that), and then she abandoned all to go to the church group and then she was disappointed with with Pastor Tim, she turned to her mom who she knew was a Soveit spy and let her to make her one too. Why not move to California and study there?  

I think that's partly the idea of S5 for Paige, when she tries to "be normal" and date Matthew. She decides that because of her uniquely terrible situation in life, with her parents' secret and whatever else, she can't have a normal life. When her parents get rid of Pastor Tim, she finally feels a little relief and that, it seems, convinces her to be one of the "strong" people like Elizabeth.

So when she's choosing college she's probably still in that phase and convinces herself she's got to stay close to home to work with Mom and all that. Of course she could have simply gone to college and made friends--that's what Philip's telling her all along. But Elizabeth's way, it seems, seems more secure to her while the world has begun to seem really scary. She's already only thinking about GWU before she starts seriously punching her laundry bag.

21 hours ago, Roseanna said:

It's like Paige doesn't know anything about history - countless women in occupied countries did that with German and American soldiers , too. Not that there weren't romances, too.   

Yup. Though maybe even if she knew about these things intellectually--the way she says in that she knew, intellectually, that poor neighborhoods existed before Elizabeth took her to one--they don't seem real to her. And in that moment maybe it's not just that it doesn't seem real but that she doesn't want to have the conversation that Claudia's trying to open up, the one where they talk about sex as a commodity to exchange for something else isn't such a weird thing. So she just shuts it down by saying it didn't happen.

20 hours ago, Roseanna said:

That seems strange. Can the FBI really behave like that? Even in Czar's Russia, when Lenin's older brother was executed for attempting to murder the Czar, his family was in no way punished, on the contrary Lenin could study in the university. 

 

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

He's a child, so he will need to be in protective custody since his sister and Stan will be in prison.  He will be questioned, because his sister and parents are KGB spies, and they will need to know what he knows, and also if he is as well.

I hadn't connected these characters before, but this thread just reminded me that we actually did see the situation already on the show with Jared, who wound up living with neighbors even after the FBI knew the Connors were spies. But like I said, I think the show was going out of its way to establish that Henry had a lot of backup to keep his life mostly the way he planned it until he's 18. He hasn't lost his living arrangements.

[Umbelina]

19 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I hadn't connected these characters before, but this thread just reminded me that we actually did see the situation already on the show with Jared, who wound up living with neighbors even after the FBI knew the Connors were spies. But like I said, I think the show was going out of its way to establish that Henry had a lot of backup to keep his life mostly the way he planned it until he's 18. He hasn't lost his living arrangements.

When did the FBI realize Jarrod's parents were spies?  I thought Phillip removed all of the proof of that?

Yes, Henry will lose everything.  All of the Jennings' assets will be seized.  It's possible his (definitely right wing) school parent friend will stand by him, but to the point of taking a possible KGB trainee into their home?  Doubtful.  He's a minor, he will be questioned, and no, that school is out, his part time summer job will not pay for all of it, if he even has a job after this hits the press.

He may just be expelled to Russia though.

This whole ending is beyond stupid.

[Domestic Assassin]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

When did the FBI realize Jarrod's parents were spies?  I thought Phillip removed all of the proof of that?

 

Martha made the connection to Stan that the weekend of the murders was the same weekend as the meeting of scientists that Stan was looking into. Stan pulled all the evidence of the murders including what was in their hotel room. He and Gaad were looking it over when they found the briefcase with the hidden compartments and realized it was from a spy agency.

[Umbelina]

39 minutes ago, Domestic Assassin said:

Martha made the connection to Stan that the weekend of the murders was the same weekend as the meeting of scientists that Stan was looking into. Stan pulled all the evidence of the murders including what was in their hotel room. He and Gaad were looking it over when they found the briefcase with the hidden compartments and realized it was from a spy agency.

Thanks!

It may be time for a rewatch, I have all the DVD's except the last season.  

[Umbelina]

I'm surprised this book wasn't mentioned at all by the show, probably the best, and most important book of our time.  I read it way back when, but just found a very nice audio version on youtube.

I'd forgotten, or didn't "get" when I was younger, how much humor and incredible analysis is a part of this remarkable work.  I get why the show didn't use it, and ignored all the TV coverage about the horrors of everyday life in the USSR, but I'd like to think Philip and Elizabeth had a lot of arguments about it, and that Paige eventually got off her ass and read it as well, since she was rah rah USSR and KGB.

ETA, I am of course flashing back to Oleg's mother, and Oleg trying to fix the mess of food distribution (partly or mainly because of the whole Gulad system) and even more of Philip.  Remembering Gabe here as well, when anyone could be arrested for anything at all, and Gabe was one of those arresting them.

It's really a pity they didn't give us more on Philip's fascinating background, and instead spent so much time on Elizabeth's.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

When did the FBI realize Jarrod's parents were spies?  I thought Phillip removed all of the proof of that?

Yes, Henry will lose everything.  All of the Jennings' assets will be seized.  It's possible his (definitely right wing) school parent friend will stand by him, but to the point of taking a possible KGB trainee into their home?  Doubtful.  He's a minor, he will be questioned, and no, that school is out, his part time summer job will not pay for all of it, if he even has a job after this hits the press.

He may just be expelled to Russia though.

This whole ending is beyond stupid.

Domestic Assassin mentioned when they found it out, but after they knew they were spies Stan went to talk to Jared, asking him questions about his parents. There was no suggestion of moving Jared from the family he was living with, who were just neighbors he babysat for, much less deporting him to Russia over it--they didn't even bring him in! In Henry's case, he doesn't need to live with anybody. He lives at school, has a job with housing from the summer, and is paying for his next year at school with his well-paying summer job and scholarships. However that would or wouldn't work in real life, that's what the show seemed to be establishing. Frankly, it's still ridiculous that Henry didn't have a free ride to begin with, given all he's done there.

I don't think he's going to lose any allies there, whether or not they even know what exactly the deal with his parents were. None of the Illegals the FBI has identified have ever been in the press. It's not like Henry's connections at school have anything to do with his family who's now disgraced--it's his own charming personality that's made connections--plus his academic and athletic achievement that's great for the school. He wouldn't be the first kid at a rich school like that whose parents have been in trouble with the law, I'm sure. He'll be questioned and not know anything. He'll still be the kid everyone wants to take credit for.

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I'm surprised this book wasn't mentioned at all by the show, probably the best, and most important book of our time.  I read it way back when, but just found a very nice audio version on youtube.

I'd forgotten, or didn't "get" when I was younger, how much humor and incredible analysis is a part of this remarkable work.  I get why the show didn't use it, and ignored all the TV coverage about the horrors of everyday life in the USSR, but I'd like to think Philip and Elizabeth had a lot of arguments about it, and that Paige eventually got off her ass and read it as well, since she was rah rah USSR and KGB.

ETA, I am of course flashing back to Oleg's mother, and Oleg trying to fix the mess of food distribution (partly or mainly because of the whole Gulad system) and even more of Philip.  Remembering Gabe here as well, when anyone could be arrested for anything at all, and Gabe was one of those arresting them.

It's really a pity they didn't give us more on Philip's fascinating background, and instead spent so much time on Elizabeth's.

Yeah, the only time Philip and Elizabeth even mentioned it was, iirc, something like Philip asking her if she knew or ever thought about the camps and Elizabeth, of course, didn't want to talk about that. Which is pretty frustrating--what was Philip's life supposed to be like? What did they do after his father died? He was still in the same city and was perfectly aware of the GULAG there.

If Paige ever went through a phase where she had genuine interest in Russia as a country, we didn't see it. She didn't seem interested in challenging anything that Elizabeth said about it, just politely try to turn the conversation to something in her own life that seemed to relate. Even the one book we know she read for outside research wasn't about Russia, it was about stuff KGB people like her mom (and therefore she herself!) did.

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

He was still in the same city and was perfectly aware of the GULAG there.

His father was a Gulag guard.  They were smack in the middle of that Gulag.

[Roseanna]

On 8/25/2020 at 3:00 PM, Umbelina said:

He's a child, so he will need to be in protective custody since his sister and Stan will be in prison.  He will be questioned, because his sister and parents are KGB spies, and they will need to know what he knows, and also if he is as well.

Can a minor really be put in "protective custody" instead of a foster home?

However, my main argument is that, although we all are of course free to imagine "what happens after the serie ended", it seems IMO strange to think inside the box "what would happen in the real world". After all, we couldn't enjoy hardly any Westerns and very few detective stories, if we demanded them to be like the reality. Not to speak of stories about persons with superpowers, aliens etc. 

Instead, I find it more useful to ponder The Americans inside the spy genre. When John le Carré's George Smiley won his arch enemy Karla, he lost morally. In the end of the French serie Le bureau des legendes the protagonist meets in his imaginations all those whose lives he had destroyed - including really bad persons whose last drop of humanity he used against them. 

I see the crux of the matter of The Americans to show that "us" and "them" are just as human (yes, also Elizabeth!) and face choices of same kind. Therefore, I see no sense that P&E should have had a formal punishment for their deeds, still less that Stan and Paige's fate would like irl.

 

[Roseanna]

On 8/27/2020 at 5:58 AM, sistermagpie said:

If Paige ever went through a phase where she had genuine interest in Russia as a country, we didn't see it. She didn't seem interested in challenging anything that Elizabeth said about it, just politely try to turn the conversation to something in her own life that seemed to relate. Even the one book we know she read for outside research wasn't about Russia, it was about stuff KGB people like her mom (and therefore she herself!) did.

Probably the writers's intention was from the beginning to make Paige a spy, but they made a serious mistake to let Claudia and Elizabeth imagine that lecturing about the USSR would make a good motivation. They should have limited to use motivations like "feeling herself important", "knowing what others don't", "making an important contribution" and "helping to keep peace" (they were signaled, but not enough). Or perhaps even better, make Paige hate that the US supports dictatorships or apartheid and then urge her to help those who fight against those regimes. 

   

[Roseanna]

On 8/27/2020 at 3:59 AM, Umbelina said:

I'm surprised this book wasn't mentioned at all by the show, probably the best, and most important book of our time.  I read it way back when, but just found a very nice audio version on youtube.

I'd forgotten, or didn't "get" when I was younger, how much humor and incredible analysis is a part of this remarkable work.  I get why the show didn't use it, and ignored all the TV coverage about the horrors of everyday life in the USSR, but I'd like to think Philip and Elizabeth had a lot of arguments about it, and that Paige eventually got off her ass and read it as well, since she was rah rah USSR and KGB.

The Gulag Archipelago was one of the books that most influenced me as young.

Yet, there had been published many, many books about Gulag in the West. Not only after Stalin's death when foreigners who were allowed to return home and wrote their memoirs, but already before WW2. And it was under the Stalin's "great purges" when Western writers and intellectuals admired the USSR the most. 

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Probably the writers's intention was from the beginning to make Paige a spy, but they made a serious mistake to let Claudia and Elizabeth imagine that lecturing about the USSR would make a good motivation. They should have limited to use motivations like "feeling herself important", "knowing what others don't", "making an important contribution" and "helping to keep peace" (they were signaled, but not enough). Or perhaps even better, make Paige hate that the US supports dictatorships or apartheid and then urge her to help those who fight against those regimes. 

I don't think it was a mistake on their part. I think her story is more about how while she does have an interest in making a difference, what she really chooses to do is hand herself over to Elizabeth for the promise of no longer being afraid and not being alone. (This is something that came up for me in Walter Taffet, which I just watched and am about to post on.) The events of S4-5 made her think she no longer had a place as herself, couldn't handle the scary world. When we meet her again in S6 she's getting near the point of realizing that not only does she not have to do this, but the whole idea is a lie since being a spy just makes her more afraid, doesn't promise any great connection with anyone (especially the two people lying to her) and oh yeah, didn't she always hate her mother getting to tell her what to do? There's only so long she could pretend to be into it, just as there was only so long she could pretend she was into church.

In that sense the Russia lessons, though silly, make a little sense. They're supposed to make her feel like "Child of the Motherland" (I think Nina used that phrase in her vow to Arkady**) like she was once a Child of God. Only it doesn't really work, because Paige clearly never connects deeply with Russia at all, any more than she really had to God. While Russia would of course be very important to Elizabeth, just as God is important to Pastor Tim.

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His father was a Gulag guard.  They were smack in the middle of that Gulag.

True, but I didn't know if we should assume they stayed in the same house after he died.

** Checked--she says "daughter of the Fatherland"

Edited August 29, 2020 by sistermagpie

[sistermagpie]

Just finished Walter Taffet and wow, this ep is great. When they find the pen I get giddy. It made me remember a lot of discussions that happened at the time it aired, the subjects of some of which are clearer in retrospect.

 

STAN

This is the ep where Stan refers to Aderholt as “black guy” when trying to lay out his uneasiness around him. I still think it’s realistic, meant to gesture to the third rail that is race in the US. The real problem is that Aderholt accidentally dropped a truth bomb on Stan when Stan  described Nina as “straightforward” and said she told them everything she knew. Stan suddenly got a glimpse of what Nina looks like to an objective agent. That’s what makes him feel uncomfortable around Aderholt.

I hadn’t remembered how nicely that plays into the pen being found. Stan’s stuck making appointments for Zinaida on the phone when he sees Aderholt talking to Gaad and looking at him while he does so. So Stan finds an excuse to go in there—a signature. Gaad tries to use the pen to write it and when he tosses down the cap, Aderholt (of course it’s Aderholt) hears the rattle. Iow, if Stan hadn’t been threatened by Aderholt, the pen wouldn’t have been found that day by the three of them—or maybe ever! So it's very closely tied to the plot of the ep, but for the viewer it's just a random scene when the pen's unexpectedly discovered with no build-up.

Stan’s “black guy” dialogue is absolutely meant to refer to the racial situation in the US. It’s not only in an ep that deals with Apartheid (where the US is on the wrong side), but one that references Stan’s white supremacist work, Gregory, and has Paige talking about the casual racism of Falls Church—where Stan also lives. It's not making a statement about Stan, but the racial situation in the US, of which Stan is part.

Stan also says he acted like “an asshole” by asking Sandra to come with him to Chicago—that’s no coincidence either that he uses the EST word.

I can’t put my finger on exactly what inspires him to open up a bit to Matthew. There is a parallel to how Elizabeth recently talked to Paige about her past and how in this ep Philip doesn’t want to do so.

 

MARTHA

This is the big moment for Martha. I still find her reaction to the pen being found completely believable and well done.

One of the things I love about the Martha/Clark story is how at this point it starts taking on horror movie notes. Several times Noah Emmerich sets things up so Martha’s looking at the camera while Clark lurks in the background, sometimes with an ominous expression, or even worse, stalks up to her from behind! Sometimes Martha’s in focus, frantically thinking, while Clark’s fuzzy. When Martha suggests they go to his apartment the focus dramatically shifts from one to the other.

Sometimes it’s even funny, like when Martha takes this loooong sip of water while she calms down enough to decide to say, “You know what I was thinking, I’ve never seen your apartment!” Her walk around Clark’s Place is fantastic. You can’t help but wonder what’s going through her head at all times. She’s very good at showing her anxiety to the audience while believably hiding it enough from other people.

 

HENRY

Henry has a nice little moment in this ep to remind us of his personality. As usual it references two things Henry’s used for a lot. First, it shows yet again that no, Philip and Elizabeth are not checked out of their kids’ lives. They’re on top of Henry’s school assignment. And two, it shows Henry being a reluctant student, one whose parents have good reason to be surprised at when he starts suddenly getting A’s. As always, though, Henry’s reluctance is linked to questioning the formalities. He doesn’t want to do this assignment because it’s embarrassing. He questions the system of school, but is a thinker.

That sets up a nice contrast with Paige that mirrors Elizabeth and Philip. Henry says he doesn’t want to read his poem aloud or have someone else read it, because that’s worse. Paige says in that case he’s not doing the assignment. There’s their attitudes towards school in a nutshell. Paige prioritizes doing the assignment because it’s the assignment. Henry thinks about why he’s doing it. (And tells Paige she’s not part of this discourse!) Btw, Henry's also part of the convo about Philip and Elizabeth being activists, so we should probably remember he's putting stuff together off-screen too.

PAIGE

I’d said how the scene at the end of the last ep seemed to have a lot more HT could be playing that would make Paige more coherent and the scene more tense and that carries through to her first scene in this ep, where she asks Philip about his past as an activist. When Elizabeth was speaking to Paige, Paige didn’t look happy at all. Now she’s enthusiastic about what she’s heard and thinks it’s cool. It’s not a problem that her attitude has changed, but it doesn’t seem like it’s being played as a change. Like for instance, as if Paige had decided that if she shows how much she agrees with her parents, Dad will tell her the secret she’s supposed to be really focused on. Instead it’s just her earnestly meaning what she says. (And maybe HT was directed to do that so it wasn’t her choice, who knows, but why?)

Later she has a little scene where she’s doing homework and blowing off the pizza that Philip brought home. The set up seems to suggest Paige is now ignoring him on purpose, but she plays it like she’s just so focused on her homework she can’t hear him even though that’s absurd.

It’s not that she ought to be overcomplicating every scene, but you can see why it’s almost too easy to lose the thread of Paige’s story and just relate to her parents reacting to her. You don’t get much more from her saying her lines than you would from reading them in the script.

 

ELIZABETH

That issue with Paige is a real contrast to Philip and Elizabeth, who fill every one of their scenes with clear moments of tension that connect to the past and the present. Like, right after he talks to Paige, Philip has it out with Elizabeth. He starts the scene stomping around, believably unsure just how to express his emotions, having just been blindsided. Elizabeth, otoh, has clearly prepared for the confrontation she knows is coming and has decided how to play it. By the end of the scene, though, they’re both softer, at odds, but sad about it. All their interactions in this ep have that kind of careful emotional stuff that turns small conversations into something delicate and alive.

Philip’s question about whether she’s just going to tell Paige the secret seems like a through-line for Elizabeth throughout the ep. When she meets up with Reuban Ncgobo, a South African activist, she enjoys bonding with him over being cool and not American. Ncgobo talks about how his son loves motorcycles and keeps decorating his walls with pictures of them torn out of magazines. No matter how many times his father tears them down and beats him, the kid finds more. Ncgobo says he knows Americans don’t discipline their kids that way and Elizabeth proudly reminds him she’s not American…but would she have beaten Paige for reading the Bible if she could have? No.

Neither Ncgobo nor Elizabeth seem to consider the implications of Ncgobo’s beatings being so ineffective. In a way, his son has already shown himself to be a fighter, rebelling against his father instead of (or as well as) Apartheid. His attitude reflects Elizabeth’s own respect for strong arm tactics, which in itself reflects aspects of the USSR. It also reflects the central conflict between Philip and Elizabeth. She sees the Paige situation as needing Paige to live correctly, believing, like Ncgobo, that fighting is the only way to die. But the conflict with Ncgobo and his son is also about his son being a different person than his father.

Ncgobo tells Elizabeth that he’s worried about his son being killed for a motorcycle, but when he relates what he actually said to his son, it’s more about not respecting his son’s interests. It’s not just that he respects putting one’s life in danger for Civil Rights more than he would for a motorcycle, like many would. It’s that he’s telling his son he’s just wrong to like what he likes. Paige herself sees her battle with her parents (mostly her mother) as being about just that, wanting to be and be respected for herself. In joining Elizabeth, she’s explicitly giving up on that.

That, I just realized, makes the dialogue in her S6 fight with Philip all the more interesting. She says she’s “not like him” and rather than argue he just says okay, show me. And proves that no, she isn’t like him, and that they are both putting on a false front of what they really are.

By the end of this ep, Elizabeth is willing to say she was wrong to not tell Philip about her talk with Paige. That’s when she learns that Philip has his own son that’s a fighter, which doesn’t thrill him the way it thrills Ncgobo—or Elizabeth, who’s not very convincing when pretending that she thinks it’s an actual shame if Ncgobo’s sons wind up in a war. Philip has very little power when it comes to stopping things with Paige, but does have a lot of influence over Elizabeth. They start off the ep facing off, framed and separated by their bedroom window, and wind up spooning and then facing each other in bed, embracing.

 

PHILIP

One of the things that came up on first watch was the question of how Philip could miss that he’s been blown when he sees Martha. Part of it, sure, probably is that he’s distracted with everything else going on so he’s taking the Martha situation for granted. But watching it now, I also realize that he’s not really reading her wrong. This is not the way one would imagine a person in Martha’s situation behaving if she had a breakthrough, after all. He wouldn’t expect her to be sitting alone in her apartment waiting for him. He’d expect the FBI to be there waiting instead!

And in retrospect, he’s right to trust her, which we didn’t know the first time it aired. Whatever is exactly going through her mind here, Martha is on her way to choosing Clark over everything. So Philip is not exactly wrong to just note that something’s off with her, that maybe she’s got something brewing on the foster child front. When Martha tells Clark she’s decided to just go home because she doesn’t feel well, Clark feels her forehead etc. and his casual solicitousness about it is totally believable. Philip’s genuine feeling for her is maybe what saves him. I don’t think Elizabeth could get the same results. (Just as Philip isn't able to inspire people to the Cause the way Elizabeth can.)

 

JACK AND MICHELLE

Had to give a shout out to Jack, the boyfriend created for Elizabeth’s Michelle persona. He’s so over the top enthusiastic about Michelle! And sushi! And his job! And veal Milanese!—that it makes me wish we got to see the conversation P&E had about what he should be like. Did Elizabeth know she was going to be going out to dinner with this guy? I wonder if MR read the script and thought the guy seemed weirdly hyped and made this choice. He does this eye-roll thing to Lisa after kissing Michelle that was so OTT I made a .gif of it.

The dinner is sandwiched between scenes where Philip and Elizabeth are both pretty grim, especially Philip (saddest man on TV) to remind us how well they can turn it on and off.

 

HANS

Left Hans for last because this is the ep where he starts working. He did have far more training scenes than I’d initially remembered, but we don’t actually see Elizabeth teaching him how to do anything much. He’s just practicing what she taught him sometime in the past with her commenting on his progress. At the time, there was a discussion about whether Hans does a well or not on his first mission, one he’s included on because it’s a SA op and not because Elizabeth herself decided to start him working yet. The confusion’s understandable—there were questions about the whole operation—but on re-watch it’s really laid out clearly.

Early on, Elizabeth gives Hans instructions about giving two light taps on the horn and driving away. What we see him do is lay hard on the horn and not drive away. So it seems like he maybe panicked. But he didn’t.

Elizabeth’s instructions are specifically about what Hans should do if he saw a patrol car, which is their biggest threat. When Hans lays on the horn, he’s signaling Elizabeth to hurry up because it looks like Venter might overpower Philip. He’s right not to give the patrol car signal—that would give exactly the wrong information. Instead, he either improvises or uses an alternate signal. Hans really does just fine.

What’s important in retrospect is that it’s a parallel to the scene in S6 where the general gets shot. The two situations aren’t completely the same, of course, but Hans on his very first job in a high stress situation is able to make a decision that takes the big picture into account when something seems to be going wrong. He doesn’t jump out or drive over to help Philip with Venter. He stays in his strategically chosen position as lookout for patrol cars, their greatest threat.

Compare that to Paige acting as lookout in the park. Sure, there’s more emotion involved—she hears a gunshot and it’s her mother out there. But that doesn’t make it any better that she loses her head. She abandons her position, leaving Elizabeth with no warning if someone comes upon her and the corpse. And we know this wasn’t much of a considered decision—she just runs into the field, even dropping her cover and yelling, “Mom!”

I don’t know if the showrunners knew how many of Hans’ scenes were going to be paralleled, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was intentional. It’s a subtle way of laying out for the viewer everything that’s expected of foot soldiers/pawns like Hans and Marilyn. They’re not important like P&E, but they have a lot of responsibility. Having someone who can’t keep their head and doesn’t see their instructions as that important (as Paige makes even more clear she doesn’t when they talk about it later) is wildly dangerous. When the scene in the park happens, Paige has already been acting as lookout for a while, and unlike Hans, there's no reason to think she was put on the job for any other reason than Elizabeth's say-so. In fact, Paige gets far more attention from Elizabeth than Hans did.

So the park is at least the second time Elizabeth has seen that any success she thinks she’s seen in Paige on the job is an illusion/wishful thinking on her part. A lookout/support who’s only reliable until they’re actually needed is at best no use at all and at worst another handicap.

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

In that sense the Russia lessons, though silly, make a little sense. They're supposed to make her feel like "Child of the Motherland" (I think Nina used that phrase in her vow to Arkady**) like she was once a Child of God. Only it doesn't really work, because Paige clearly never connects deeply with Russia at all, any more than she really had to God. While Russia would of course be very important to Elizabeth, just as God is important to Pastor Tim.

At least it gave us great scenes with Elizabeth and Claudia talking about the old days and sex!  

That's another thing though, only Gabe mentions how absolutely horrible the years of absolute terror were under Stalin (great scenes, I would have loved more!)  Claudia, I can see, and assume, she was still one of his true believers, even after being in the West for so long, and learning the truth about him, and Lenin, and all the murdered people, the tortured people, the horrific disaster of specifically killing or imprisoning all of those who actually knew how to farm, the starvation caused by the idiotic implementation of collective farms, and assigning people who knew nothing about farming to staff them, which in turn ended up starving most of the population!  (I could go on about that for hours, but back to Claudia and Elizabeth.)

I think Claudia WOULD have read the Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn books, including The Gulag Archipelago.  If only to discredit him as a traitor in her mind, because I believe she would believe anything her heroes did was justified.  I think she would be able to categorize in her mind that it was all worth it for the higher and more important causes, industrializing the USSR, making it a world power to fight the MAIN ENEMY (the USA.)  

Gabriel?  I doubt he could stomach reading the books, but at least read excerpts and cried, he seemed more aware, and I think he felt guilt at his part in the machine of murder and torture.  Had he read them though?  I think he would have felt better, because Solzhenitsyn looked at the systemic problem, rather than blaming only those who actually participated in a first hand way, as he did.  I almost hope for him that he did read at least The Gulag Archipelago at some point, and found some kind of peace.

I flat out don't believe Elizabeth would have read it.  Whatever she heard about it, I believe she would mock and hate.  She was trying so hard to be a patriot, much like Claudia, but without Claudia's justification and  first hand experience in dealing with WWII, and the KGB under Stalin.  So, mostly a propaganda/indoctrination belief, which I find less understandable and less forgivable, because she consistently chose ignorance.  I wish the story of her father's "desertion" would have been addressed as well, because anyone who has studied this at all, knows that Stalin considered anyone captured, or anyone who retreated (retreat is a tried and true military strategy at times) a TRAITOR.  So, she grew up her whole life believing that about her father, and it was probably all a lie, by any standards outside of Stalin's.  Of course, the writers wanted the whole Mother, Daughter, Granddaughter story, so it was ignored.  Again, oddly if she did read those books, she may have finally been relieved of the burden of being a traitor's daughter, and living her life to correct that stain.

Philip?  I wish we knew, I wish so much they had explored his direct connection with the horrific Gulag situation.  They went on and on and on about Elizabeth and her mother, but we just get flashes from Philip, never put in context, never delved into, his nightmares, and his desire for understanding.  (EST, for example.)  Do I think he read it after Gabriel admitted his dad was a Gulag guard?  I wish we knew, but I kind of think yes.  Elizabeth's mother even gets a visit, and many letters, but Philip's brother, who could have helped answer his troubling questions?  Nothing, what a missed opportunity!  Also the bullshit story of Philip's son, never paid off...so much waste.

(oh, and yes, I think these additions would have made fascinating and compelling story additions, and with all of our adult leads (except the FBI) having direct involvement, and all the war talk, would have been fantastic.  Less Father Tim and much less Paige, and a bit more of that please.)

16 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Can a minor really be put in "protective custody" instead of a foster home?

However, my main argument is that, although we all are of course free to imagine "what happens after the serie ended", it seems IMO strange to think inside the box "what would happen in the real world". After all, we couldn't enjoy hardly any Westerns and very few detective stories, if we demanded them to be like the reality. Not to speak of stories about persons with superpowers, aliens etc. 

Instead, I find it more useful to ponder The Americans inside the spy genre. When John le Carré's George Smiley won his arch enemy Karla, he lost morally. In the end of the French serie Le bureau des legendes the protagonist meets in his imaginations all those whose lives he had destroyed - including really bad persons whose last drop of humanity he used against them. 

I see the crux of the matter of The Americans to show that "us" and "them" are just as human (yes, also Elizabeth!) and face choices of same kind. Therefore, I see no sense that P&E should have had a formal punishment for their deeds, still less that Stan and Paige's fate would like irl.

 

To the bolded  part, because I've addressed all the rest WAY too much, and I stand by it all.

That may have been their intent, but they continued to send their spies on long murder sprees (something real KGB embedded agents would have never done, only to make "good TV.")  We watched them murder countless innocent people, we watched Paige help them murder others (and yes, by USA law she is guilty of those murders as well, which is why her ass will be in prison.)  

You can't just do that and have no real consequences.  They weren't killing military or political enemies, they were killing innocent people, and those kills kept increasing.  

That's where we get to the place we disagree.  I think both Philip and Elizabeth will soon be eliminated in the USSR, which is about to turn into Russia in what, less that two years?  So, in my mind, both WILL pay, by death at the hand of the huge conspiracy of Claudia, nearly all of the KGB leaders (according to Arkady) and most of the Military leaders as well.  So, in a sense, they will pay.

It's a payoff that satisfies me though, for two reasons.  1.  Most are buying that sappy bullshit romantic end of P and E staring over again in her beloved USSR.  2.  The whole "losing our kids" bullshit.  They didn't really lose them, at least in the sappy and ridiculous story presented.  Paige was, and Henry soon would be, of the age that kids begin their own life, move away to college, relocate for a job, etc.  It's the "leaving the nest time" anyway.  Very soon either or both could travel and meet up with their parents, as far as this writing is concerned.

(In reality, every single person we grew to care about has a horrible ending, IMO, including Stan, Paige, and Oleg in prison, Arkady, Elizabeth, and Philip about to be assassinated, Oleg's wife/child/parents undoubtedly about to be punished in horrible ways because of Oleg's actions as a traitor, etc.  Hopefully they are alive when the USSR fails, and freed, except for poor Oleg. )  grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

15 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Probably the writers's intention was from the beginning to make Paige a spy, but they made a serious mistake to let Claudia and Elizabeth imagine that lecturing about the USSR would make a good motivation. They should have limited to use motivations like "feeling herself important", "knowing what others don't", "making an important contribution" and "helping to keep peace" (they were signaled, but not enough). Or perhaps even better, make Paige hate that the US supports dictatorships or apartheid and then urge her to help those who fight against those regimes. 

   

I agree.  Again this is where it all falls apart the most.

Paige is stupid enough to "want to belong" to mommy's and cool Claudia's little "club" but that is all it is to her.  Meanwhile, Philip, always the closest to his kids, is ignored, shunned, and insulted while Paige makes these monumental choices!  She never once talks to her dad about all of this?  Bullshit.

She is old enough to research this shit, and certainly old enough to realize the penalties for treason, old enough to read the paper and know that her little "lookout" gigs for the KGB resulted in several deaths.  Old enough to know that makes her guilty of murder by USA laws.  It's utter nonsense that this very American college student would join the KGB and fight for a country she knows nothing about, against her home.

15 hours ago, Roseanna said:

The Gulag Archipelago was one of the books that most influenced me as young.

Yet, there had been published many, many books about Gulag in the West. Not only after Stalin's death when foreigners who were allowed to return home and wrote their memoirs, but already before WW2. And it was under the Stalin's "great purges" when Western writers and intellectuals admired the USSR the most. 

I don't know what you mean about "admired the USSR the most."  ???  I think people in the West were and still are, horrified by what that country did to it's citizens during the entire reign of communism.  It was essentially pure hell there from the time of the revolution until the dissolution of the USSR.

Yes, the USSR became a world power, but at costs unimaginable to the "Western" world, including the slave labor and torture that provided the means to build that.

Edited August 30, 2020 by Umbelina
added some clarification

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Just finished Walter Taffet and wow, this ep is great. When they find the pen I get giddy. It made me remember a lot of discussions that happened at the time it aired, the subjects of some of which are clearer in retrospect.

Beyond a doubt, one of my all time favorite episodes!  Another fantastic recap/review of an episode I adored, so thanks! 

This is one of the episodes I will watch over and over again, near perfection, The Americans at it's very best.

[Umbelina]

Just ran across this by accident on YouTube.  An interview with a KGB defector (who has unknown motivations) in 1984.  Thought it might be interesting, considering all the talk about defecting on the show.

(I haven't seen all of this yet, but still...)

ETA

He says here that he was forced to marry before leaving the USSR as a KGB agent.  He said it was either to hold your family hostage, if it was a marriage for love, OR, as in his case (and Philip/Elizabeth's) so that you could inform on one another.  I couldn't help but flash back to Elizabeth writing reports on Philip, or her handlers asking her about him, and the episode when he found out about it.

ETA again, I wonder if The American writers also watched this video, because guess what is mentioned?  Bugs to destroy potato crops.  Ha.

 

Edited August 30, 2020 by Umbelina

[aemom]

With nothing new to watch on TV, I've been looking for older series that were well received. So, thanks to doorside-pickup at my library, I was able to watch the entire series over the last two months. 

I've really enjoyed reading the comments from the individual episodes in the vaulted forum, it's definitely improved my watching experience.

Because I've seen the whole series in a compressed timeline, I can definitely see the plot holes and unevenness of some of the seasons, but overall it's been a very good series with stellar acting, especially by Matthew Rhys.

There were several things that I really couldn't hand wave away:

When Elizabeth was recuperating from being shot, Philip had to stay at Martha's quite often. Who was staying with the kids? 

Paige gets wrapped up with Pastor Tim because she meets that girl on a bus. We saw her a grand total of twice, and then never again. Shouldn't she have been a regular friend of Paige's?

Then, the Center made it sound like there was no choice in Paige becoming a spy. Then we see several conversations over time where she has to decide if it's right for her.  That whole Paige-as-spy thing was the real gaping hole in the show.

It was so obvious how every horrible thing that Philip had to do over the years was slowly tearing him apart. At the same time, nothing really seemed to bother Elizabeth. Even when Henry came for a visit and greets her while she's smoking in the backyard, she doesn't even hug him. I only became convinced that she actually loved her children in that final episode. I wonder if SHE finally realized it at that time as well since she never wanted any children. For Elizabeth to convince me that she loved Philip, was when she grabbed the real wedding rings.

Philip masterfully played Stan to get out of the parking garage, and in the end, they were able to get the message to Arkady. As for Henry, I think that Stan will take good care of him. I also think that he will protect Paige. It's hard to say if the FBI will interrogate her, but which side is Renee working for? With Gorbachev or against him?

Edited August 30, 2020 by aemom
Typo

[sistermagpie]

17 hours ago, Umbelina said:

At least it gave us great scenes with Elizabeth and Claudia talking about the old days and sex!  

That's another thing though, only Gabe mentions how absolutely horrible the years of absolute terror were under Stalin (great scenes, I would have loved more!)  Claudia, I can see, and assume, she was still one of his true believers, even after being in the West for so long, and learning the truth about him, and Lenin, and all the murdered people, the tortured people, the horrific disaster of specifically killing or imprisoning all of those who actually knew how to farm, the starvation caused by the idiotic implementation of collective farms, and assigning people who knew nothing about farming to staff them, which in turn ended up starving most of the population!  (I could go on about that for hours, but back to Claudia and Elizabeth.)

One of the moments I always glommed onto is I think in Chloramphenicol where Gabriel's nearly died and he brings up something about how terrible things were back home. Elizabeth instinctively says, "During the war?" or something and Gabriel says no, he means the purges. It  seems like that was the beginning of Gabriel facing his past--but it seemed so fitting that of course Elizabeth would default to the war being the time when things were terrible because she would never even try to deal with the time before and what it meant. I think when Philip brings it up she just says she knew the camps existed, like...hey! Just like Paige says she knew that ghettos existed! She doesn't want to go into them, even though they're a huge part of her country's history--and not even long ago history.

I could believe Philip read it, especially after he realized he was actually living in it. He seemed to immediately associate being a guard in the prison with potentially being a monster, so he wasn't denying it. He was always ready to accept the horrible parts of the history. I can't imagine Elizabeth reading it. I wonder if Philip would have even let her see him reading it, depending on when he did it. That is, whether he read it after he realized the truth about his father or just at some point in their past. After all, even before he realized what his father's job was he still knew about the camps. Not just camps, but THE camp that was right next door.

17 hours ago, Umbelina said:

So, she grew up her whole life believing that about her father, and it was probably all a lie, by any standards outside of Stalin's.  Of course, the writers wanted the whole Mother, Daughter, Granddaughter story, so it was ignored.  Again, oddly if she did read those books, she may have finally been relieved of the burden of being a traitor's daughter, and living her life to correct that stain.

It seemed like she just went the way she went with most things, with denial. Like she didn't even acknowledge that her father was branded a traitor, much less think about how it motivated her. So she never tried to think about what might have really happened to him and consider that he wasn't anything but a soldier put it in an impossible position.

17 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth's mother even gets a visit, and many letters, but Philip's brother, who could have helped answer his troubling questions?  Nothing, what a missed opportunity!  Also the bullshit story of Philip's son, never paid off...so much waste.

So frustrating! Of course, tbf, it's not like his brother would have been able to discuss that sort of thing in a tape sent through the KGB, but that wasn't the only way. He could have had a flashback a bit more like what they used with Elizabeth, like one where he talked to his mother or brother about something that in retrospect we could see as relating to it. Philip's dad died when he was 6, and that probably means that when he was six he did know the truth because it's not like the family would have hidden it at the time. Six is old enough to know what your dad does. He was just able to accept a nicer version of things later because he was young enough. Maybe even he himself was the one who made up the idea that he was a logger based on vague references to the camp work and the logging that would have gone on when he was older.

It just occurred to me that it's also kind of typical that when Philip talked about the men who didn't like him and his brother Elizabeth connected them to the kids Philip later killed. Just because in her version the whole thing becomes more about those individual people--criminals teach their sons to target the son of a guard. But as Philip always presented it and thought about it, the boys were just part of the system at the time years after the war.

17 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Paige is stupid enough to "want to belong" to mommy's and cool Claudia's little "club" but that is all it is to her.  Meanwhile, Philip, always the closest to his kids, is ignored, shunned, and insulted while Paige makes these monumental choices!  She never once talks to her dad about all of this?  Bullshit.

She is old enough to research this shit, and certainly old enough to realize the penalties for treason, old enough to read the paper and know that her little "lookout" gigs for the KGB resulted in several deaths.  Old enough to know that makes her guilty of murder by USA laws.  It's utter nonsense that this very American college student would join the KGB and fight for a country she knows nothing about, against her home.

But I admit, I much prefer the way it seems like they really lay it out on re-watch, with it so clearly *not* politically motivated for Paige. Yes, it makes her look potentially really dim, but that doesn't have to be boring. At least I'm beginning to see the consistency in the way Paige can and can't be manipulated and it leads more toward the personal rejection of Elizabeth, which we don't even have to be told means that she's no longer pretending to be a Communist since she never really was. Just like they never have to deal with any loss of faith for Paige when she no longer wants to pretend she's being "her real self" at church. She probably insisted to Philip that this was really what she thought she was meant to do when she joined Elizabeth too.

 

[sistermagpie]

Just my own personal responses...

11 minutes ago, aemom said:

There were several things that I really couldn't hand wave away:

When Elizabeth was recuperating from being shot, Philip had to stay at Martha's quite often. Who was staying with the kids? 

LOL! Good point! At that point the kids definitely still had babysitters, so they wouldn't have been on their own. It seems like there's a scene in S2 when Philip officially starts saying he'll be away from home more, so maybe we're to assume he didn't immediately start spending 1 or 2 nights a week with Martha until later and gave her some excuse. He'd have more clout after having just married her. But yeah, good point. Philip was one hard-working single dad for those months!

11 minutes ago, aemom said:

Paige gets wrapped up with Pastor Tim because she meets that girl on a bus. We saw her a grand total of twice, and then never again. Shouldn't she have been a regular friend of Paige's?

On this I would say no. Because it wasn't really about being friends with that girl, it was the church group itself. So once Paige was there the youth group became "her friends" without any one particular person being her friend. So Kelly wasn't a particular confidante or anything even if she was still someone Paige knew at the church. She just was the one to bring her into the group. Maybe Kelly lost interest even.

11 minutes ago, aemom said:

Then, the Center made it sound like there was no choice in Paige becoming a spy. Then we see several conversations over time where she has to decide if it's right for her.  That whole Paige-as-spy thing was the real gaping hole in the show.

TBF, the Centre doesn't say that Paige must become a spy. They say that Philip and Elizabeth must tell her who they are and try to recruit her. It's Philip and Elizabeth who don't have a choice, according to what they're told, not Paige herself.

11 minutes ago, aemom said:

It was so obvious how every horrible thing that Philip had to do over the years was slowly tearing him apart. At the same time, nothing really seemed to bother Elizabeth. Even when Henry came for a visit and greets her while she's smoking in the backyard, she doesn't even hug him. I only became convinced that she actually loved her children in that final episode. I wonder if SHE finally realized it at that time as well since she never wanted any children. For Elizabeth to convince me that she loved Philip, was when she grabbed the real wedding rings.

I think she did love them before that but only at the end did she start to question the way she always tried to deny it and put other things first. Even before they were born she was determined to not let them get in the way of her greater commitment and now she's got a lifetime of doing that to look back on. I think Elizabeth in the last season was as bothered as Philip had been, it just showed differently on her.

11 minutes ago, aemom said:

Philip masterfully played Stan to get out of the parking garage, and in the end, they were able to get the message to Arkady. As for Henry, I think that Stan will take good care of him. I also think that he will protect Paige. It's hard to say if the FBI will interrogate her, but which side is Renee working for? With Gorbachev or against him?

 

If Renee's a spy, which I guess e don't know for sure, she doesn't have to be on either side. Most Illegals wouldn't have been recruited into that final conflict, after all. Elizabeth got picked because Claudia thought she could easily get her to do it (true) because of her personal attitude; Philip got picked because of his personal attitude and his unique situation. Nobody outside of Oleg, Igor, Philip and Arkady knew about their plot. Most of the Russian spies probably didn't even know any of this was going on.

[Roseanna]

On 8/30/2020 at 3:21 AM, Umbelina said:

That's another thing though, only Gabe mentions how absolutely horrible the years of absolute terror were under Stalin (great scenes, I would have loved more!)  Claudia, I can see, and assume, she was still one of his true believers, even after being in the West for so long, and learning the truth about him, and Lenin, and all the murdered people, the tortured people, the horrific disaster of specifically killing or imprisoning all of those who actually knew how to farm, the starvation caused by the idiotic implementation of collective farms, and assigning people who knew nothing about farming to staff them, which in turn ended up starving most of the population!  (I could go on about that for hours, but back to Claudia and Elizabeth.)

I think Claudia WOULD have read the Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn books, including The Gulag Archipelago.  If only to discredit him as a traitor in her mind, because I believe she would believe anything her heroes did was justified.  I think she would be able to categorize in her mind that it was all worth it for the higher and more important causes, industrializing the USSR, making it a world power to fight the MAIN ENEMY (the USA.)  

Gabriel?  I doubt he could stomach reading the books, but at least read excerpts and cried, he seemed more aware, and I think he felt guilt at his part in the machine of murder and torture.  Had he read them though?  I think he would have felt better, because Solzhenitsyn looked at the systemic problem, rather than blaming only those who actually participated in a first hand way, as he did.  I almost hope for him that he did read at least The Gulag Archipelago at some point, and found some kind of peace.

I flat out don't believe Elizabeth would have read it.  Whatever she heard about it, I believe she would mock and hate.  She was trying so hard to be a patriot, much like Claudia, but without Claudia's justification and  first hand experience in dealing with WWII, and the KGB under Stalin.  So, mostly a propaganda/indoctrination belief, which I find less understandable and less forgivable, because she consistently chose ignorance.  I wish the story of her father's "desertion" would have been addressed as well, because anyone who has studied this at all, knows that Stalin considered anyone captured, or anyone who retreated (retreat is a tried and true military strategy at times) a TRAITOR.  So, she grew up her whole life believing that about her father, and it was probably all a lie, by any standards outside of Stalin's.  Of course, the writers wanted the whole Mother, Daughter, Granddaughter story, so it was ignored.  Again, oddly if she did read those books, she may have finally been relieved of the burden of being a traitor's daughter, and living her life to correct that stain.

Philip?  I wish we knew, I wish so much they had explored his direct connection with the horrific Gulag situation.  They went on and on and on about Elizabeth and her mother, but we just get flashes from Philip, never put in context, never delved into, his nightmares, and his desire for understanding.  (EST, for example.)  Do I think he read it after Gabriel admitted his dad was a Gulag guard?  I wish we knew, but I kind of think yes.  Elizabeth's mother even gets a visit, and many letters, but Philip's brother, who could have helped answer his troubling questions?  Nothing, what a missed opportunity!  Also the bullshit story of Philip's son, never paid off...so much waste.

 

The problem is that people rarely change their opinions simply because of facts (especially facts presented by the "enemy"), or even by the reality they had experienced. Many Communists continued to believe in Communism in Gulag!

Communists didn't compare other countries with those the present living conditions USSR, but with the Communist future when all would be perfect. And for that paradise it would be allowed to kill those who would prevent that glorious future (like aristocrats, bourgeoisie, priests, nuns and believers, other parties's supporters, "kulaks" etc). Remember, during the "thaw" only killings of faithful Communists and officers were condemned, thus all others offers were deemed "necessary". 

Also, if one had offered one's whole life for an ideal, it's very hard to admit that one has lived in vain - especially if one has to leave the only community one has had in life. It's like leaving a religious sect.  

 

 

[Roseanna]

On 8/30/2020 at 3:21 AM, Umbelina said:

I don't know what you mean about "admired the USSR the most."  ???  I think people in the West were and still are, horrified by what that country did to it's citizens during the entire reign of communism.  It was essentially pure hell there from the time of the revolution until the dissolution of the USSR.

I didn't speak of people but intellectuals who believed to be more intelligent and competent than ordinary people but were easily fooled when they visited Stalin's Russia. There are books about them, f.ex. Political pilgrims by Paul Hollander.

 

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

The problem is that people rarely change their opinions simply because of facts (especially facts presented by the "enemy"), or even by the reality they had experienced. Many Communists continued to believe in Communism in Gulag!

Communists didn't compare other countries with those the present living conditions USSR, but with the Communist future when all would be perfect. And for that paradise it would be allowed to kill those who would prevent that glorious future (like aristocrats, bourgeoisie, priests, nuns and believers, other parties's supporters, "kulaks" etc). Remember, during the "thaw" only killings of faithful Communists and officers were condemned, thus all others offers were deemed "necessary". 

Also, if one had offered one's whole life for an ideal, it's very hard to admit that one has lived in vain - especially if one has to leave the only community one has had in life. It's like leaving a religious sect.  

 

 

Solzhenitsyn was not "the enemy" or a foreigner.  I was talking about his books there.

Also Gabriel was horrified by living through "the terror" and ashamed, guilt ridden knowing that he sent people to horrible deaths just to save his own life.

 

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

I didn't speak of people but intellectuals who believed to be more intelligent and competent than ordinary people but were easily fooled when they visited Stalin's Russia. There are books about them, f.ex. Political pilgrims by Paul Hollander.

 

People can be easily fooled, that was written during the cold war, and talking to regular people was, at the very least difficult, and those people telling the truth could mean horror for them as well.  Russia is huge, and most of the gulags were gone by then.  It still was not a place where one could freely speak their minds without fear of reprisal.

I haven't read his book though, so I can't really comment on that.

Did you watch the video with the KGB defector?  He was quite full of himself, but interesting in spite of that.  😉

Edited September 3, 2020 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Solzhenitsyn was not "the enemy" or a foreigner.  I was talking about his books there.

 

If you're really committed to something, of course, anybody saying anything you don't want to hear is the enemy. Even if they were once supposed to be the most loyal person everyone should admire.

[Umbelina]

On 9/3/2020 at 6:48 PM, sistermagpie said:

If you're really committed to something, of course, anybody saying anything you don't want to hear is the enemy. Even if they were once supposed to be the most loyal person everyone should admire.

It was just interesting to speculate on how The Americans would have reacted to his book, since the show ignored it.  

For example, it's very hard for me to believe that even the idiotic Paige wouldn't have at least read the notes, or reviews of the book, considering the monumental decisions she was making.

How did you like that KGB defector interview?

[Roseanna]

On 9/4/2020 at 4:48 AM, sistermagpie said:

If you're really committed to something, of course, anybody saying anything you don't want to hear is the enemy. Even if they were once supposed to be the most loyal person everyone should admire.

Yes, and that happens also elsewhere, also nowadays.

But in the Soviet Union that was the norm: if somebody published books in samidzat or abroad, he was the enemy. Or at least one shouldn't have a different opinion in public, although many did around the kitchen table after Stalin's death.    

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

It was just interesting to speculate on how The Americans would have reacted to his book, since the show ignored it.  

In a way, but the The Americans happened in the 80ies and Gulag Archipelago was published in 70ies and it dealt happening before 1956. The book had a great impact f.ex. in France, but the reason was also the time: after the oil crisis the Left began to lose its support.  

Before all, reacting to a book doesn't make a good drama, unlike reacting to the happenings (Ribbentrop-Molotov pact in August 1939,

Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was publicly the non-aggression pact between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union but its most  important part was a secret protocol that divided the Eastern Europe to the spheres of influence between those states. Although the secret protocol wasn't publicly known at that time, the total political turn was dramatic as the Communist and Nazis were considered arch enemies and not only to Communists but also all who had considered that the Soviet Union was the surest opponent against Fascism. Now the Komintern line said that the bourgeois democracies were worse than Nazis and Britain and France were responsible to the war.  

Even now the staunchest Communists followed the official party line but there were also those who didn't. The same happened with the occupation of Hungary 1956 and Czechoslovakia 1968. And also Khrushchev's secret speech in 1956 had a great impact.  

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

For example, it's very hard for me to believe that even the idiotic Paige wouldn't have at least read the notes, or reviews of the book, considering the monumental decisions she was making.

I doubt that people who become spies and traitors make one "monumental decision". They make small decisions about things they think aren't important and then make little bigger decisions - and in some point there is no turning back.

That said, Paige's development was hard to believe from outside, unlike Martha's.

[sistermagpie]

16 hours ago, Umbelina said:

How did you like that KGB defector interview?

I really enjoyed the guy! Really like his take on so many international situations. And I did like the stuff about the bugs and how paranoia was just everywhere so even intelligent people couldn't be totally free of it. Did wonder if Philip ever played on one of those typical Siberian playgrounds. There's so much not explained about his story I find it hard to believe that his dad just had a job and then died and the family...whatever.

16 hours ago, Umbelina said:

It was just interesting to speculate on how The Americans would have reacted to his book, since the show ignored it.  

For example, it's very hard for me to believe that even the idiotic Paige wouldn't have at least read the notes, or reviews of the book, considering the monumental decisions she was making.

How did you like that KGB defector interview?

 

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I doubt that people who become spies and traitors make one "monumental decision". They make small decisions about things they think aren't important and then make little bigger decisions - and in some point there is no turning back.

That said, Paige's development was hard to believe from outside, unlike Martha's.

I actually have no trouble believing that Paige wouldn't have read it. She's consistently uninterested in the Soviet Union as a country, it seems to me, and it's not like Elizabeth or Claudia would ever suggest she read it. I think she just imagined her commitment to be to the life her mother had then--living in the US and doing heroic things that in some unspecified way fought evil. I mean, if she didn't know what the Great Patriotic War even was, how much interest could she have been taking in Russian history, much less history her mom didn't want to acknowledge.

So when she does start actually doing some research it's on what "their people" (meaning spies like Elizabeth) do while Russia itself might as well have been India or France or any other foreign country. Even the cold war didn't seem to much penetrate--her reaction to Gorbachev visiting the US was a vague "I can't believe he's here" (um, why?) and to ask if everything's over because the summit is over. So it's not even like Hans and Tuan who are working with the Soviets to advance things they want in their own country.

I think the decision she made was to enter into a sort of fantasy playworld with Elizabeth that she enjoyed until it became her actual life.

[Umbelina]

12 hours ago, Roseanna said:

In a way, but the The Americans happened in the 80ies and Gulag Archipelago was published in 70ies and it dealt happening before 1956. The book had a great impact f.ex. in France, but the reason was also the time: after the oil crisis the Left began to lose its support.  

 

It's probably the most important book written in (at the very least) that century.

Especially given Philip discovering his father was a Gulag guard, and with all the issues he had trying to deal with his memories, it's simply bizarre to me that Philip would not have read it, it not when it came out, then certainly by the time his memories began to haunt him.  (He would have also written to his brother, but ...)

Oddly, Philip would have found both horror and a sort of peace reading the books, since "blame" wasn't the focus, or rather, the focus wasn't blaming Stalin or the Guards, but society and individuals who allowed all of it to play out, were sucked in because of systemic other issues.  (I'm not saying this well, and couldn't possibly, it took him about 1700 pages.)  

Ditto on down the list of our characters, and whether or not they would have read it (not on the show necessarily, but beyond the scripts speculation.)  For example, I really do think Gabriel would have read it, since he played an integral part in the horror.  I think it would have helped him in some ways, but of course, been incredibly painful in others.

12 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Before all, reacting to a book doesn't make a good drama, unlike reacting to the happenings (Ribbentrop-Molotov pact in August 1939,

Yes, they ignored quite a bit about "The Great War" and idolized Stalin who basically won by not caring how many of his citizens died, of starvation, or of being cannon fodder.  Then he shipped any soldiers who were captured or even spent time in western countries off to the Gulags to die.

I thought the perspective of that KGB defector was very interesting about "the Great War." It was the exact opposite of Claudia's glowing fantasies.  I feel he was much more realistic about that than what they show decided to focus on.

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Before all, reacting to a book doesn't make a good drama, unlike reacting to the happenings (Ribbentrop-Molotov pact in August 1939,

Oh, and so evident of the time!  I enjoyed him as well, his escape, and listening to his take on The Great War, and the dismissal of the West in many cases, as well as his warnings about that.  He was so pompous, but at the same time, fascinating to listen to, especially as he was spying at the same time as our show, and just as KGB as Liz and Phil, or Claudia and Gabe.

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think the decision she made was to enter into a sort of fantasy playworld with Elizabeth that she enjoyed until it became her actual life.

Sigh.  Which is why her entire story falls apart for me.  

I wish they had never gone down that Paige as KGB spy trail, or at least, they had planned it better.  Nah.  I wish it didn't exist.  This show was SO good, except for that.  When I think of it, all of my problems with the show come back to Paige being given such a central role, with all of the stories hinging on her.

I don't know why I still care so much.  The only thing I can think of is that I really loved so much of this show, and I know it could have been one of the great shows of all time, but the mistakes made that prevented that all come back to Paige being a spy.

I can see the KGB wanting that though, and the same for Henry (another issue I have, they would have definitely been full court press on Henry as well.)  I think it would have been so much more interesting to have THAT as a primary issue in the Jennings marriage, to watch Philip and Elizabeth struggle with that, and in the end, both reject that, or split because of it, or anything other than actually start spy training for Paige (and skipping a year at that!)  

They could have gone so many ways with this story, but they chose (IMO) the worst possible path, and it all fell apart for me.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Sigh.  Which is why her entire story falls apart for me.  

I wish they had never gone down that Paige as KGB spy trail, or at least, they had planned it better.  Nah.  I wish it didn't exist.  This show was SO good, except for that.  When I think of it, all of my problems with the show come back to Paige being given such a central role, with all of the stories hinging on her.

 

Yeah, one of the things I'm really trying to look out for what they were trying to do with her because her spying story, such as it is, is so clearly not about her being really recruited as a Soviet believer--but even that's hard to see because of course that's what Elizabeth wants her to be. Elizabeth, this super strong character who tells people how things are going to be etc. It's easy to just assume they're in agreement. But it's not like they couldn't have written her being recruited like some of the other people--people that we maybe didn't see the process but once we meet them we get who they are, people who can express how they're seeing things. It just wouldn't have really been who she ever was or who she became.

So ultimately it seems like they wrote it so the story's just about exactly what Philip laid out in Born Again, letting someone else decide what's best for her. She fights against Elizabeth throughout the show, trying to assert herself as her own person, and she has the upper hand a lot until she learns the secret and gets freaked out by the mugging and decides she's too messed up to try to go forward as herself. So I'm trying to be on the lookout for times when she expresses what she thinks without it being something she would have gotten straight from Tim, Elizabeth or Claudia first.

And while I don't think it comes across as clearly as it could because it's really hard to put across and the actress doesn't help, I think it makes a lot more sense for the character than a story where she was suddenly actually interested in the USSR and believed it was important to spread Soviet Communism. It seems like she's engaging with the world more, but really she's cut off from the world outside rooms with Elizabeth and Claudia. Each time she stumbles into the real world, she doesn't quite know what to do.

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

20 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

And while I don't think it comes across as clearly as it could because it's really hard to put across and the actress doesn't help, I think it makes a lot more sense for the character than a story where she was suddenly actually interested in the USSR and believed it was important to spread Soviet Communism. It seems like she's engaging with the world more, but really she's cut off from the world outside rooms with Elizabeth and Claudia. Each time she stumbles into the real world, she doesn't quite know what to do.

I think there could have been so much conflict around Paige and Henry, without the "YOU VILL BECUM A SPIIIII!" crap though.  Letting Paige find out was fine, and could have been even better, I have no problem with that part at all.  I do have a problem with Pastor Tim, not him specifically, but so much time on him and his wife.  It was out of proportion, and I honestly think that, if Holly could act, her not immediately blabbing would have added much more tension.  I'd have liked to see her mess up, and blow something accidentally.  I would have liked to see her have friends as well, the most logical person to confide in was a best friend, and I think seeing a teenage discussion would have been interesting, and Holly could have probably even pulled it off (more like her real life, she did better with that stuff.)  

I'd also like for Henry to have found out, kept it to himself.  The perfect night for that would have been the pastor's wife screaming in the kitchen, and it was idiotic that Henry heard nothing.  Also the Henry and Stan stuff would have been even more interesting.

Even if they went with the Paige as spy story, it would have been so much more logical to show her resisting that, and her father should have been cluing her in ab out what that life meant, and no, there is no way in hell I can believe Philip would agree to back off and stay out of it.  That was idiotic in the extreme.

So much potential...

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Julia Garner aka Kimmie just won an Emmy for her role on Ozark!

 

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Julia Garner aka Kimmie just won an Emmy for her role on Ozark!

 

Wow, and she won in a heavy hitter category as well.  

Outstanding Supporting Actress in a Drama Series
Laura Dern, Big Little Lies
Meryl Streep, Big Little Lies
Helena Bonham Carter, The Crown
Samira Wiley, The Handmaid’s Tale
Fiona Shaw, Killing Eve
Julia Garner, Ozark
Sarah Snook, Succession
Thandie Newton, Westworld

[sistermagpie]

Just watched Divestment—the one with the necklacing (sort of). Some great stuff going on with this one, though!

STAN

Stan appears only briefly on his way to his friend’s funeral, noting that Martha seems a little nervous. We learn a lot about Adderholt in Taffet’s interrogation, including that he has a dog, Snuffy, a brother, and an ex-wife. He doesn’t seem to take the questions personally. He must have a lot of practice doing that. I just realized we never see Stan questioned, which would imply that Stan himself probably doesn’t feel any stress about it. Stan, the second most likely to treason person in the office.

NINA

Nina has an awkward reunion with Vasily in Siberia and meets Baklanov and it’s just pretty hard to care much about these two guys, even though they’ve been screwed over pretty badly. Of course Vasily sees Nina’s beauty as making everything easier for her.

NCGOBO

For years I’ve had the impression that Ncgobo said something about racism in Moscow, but he never actually says anything on the subject to anybody. In the last ep he spoke to Elizabeth about his sons. In this ep he tells Philip he can’t remember his wife’s face and he wouldn’t blame her if she was sleeping with someone else.

I noticed, btw, that the whole bomb plot that Todd reveals is set up back in EST Men when Paige is reading from the paper about corporations taking over more funding for colleges. Well placed, show!

OLEG

At the time a lot of people thought Arkady had to be working a political angle by refusing to obey Igor’s wishes, but I think Arkady’s refusal is personal and central to the show’s larger themes.

Igor says that he’s got two sons. One’s on the front lines of Afghanistan but Oleg is cut from a different cloth, he’s “impressionable” so needs to be home. It reminded me of the problems other Russians have with Philip, who is also “impressionable.” The core of Team Oleg in S6 are these “problem children” compared to their good soldier siblings, Elizabeth and Evgeniy, who are more tied to the past.

Parenting is a big theme on the show, and one question that comes up again and again is: is it the parent’s job to mold a child into the person they should be, or support the child in becoming whoever they are? In this ep Igor takes Elizabeth’s side, trying to put Oleg back where he belongs. Arkady, his boss and mentor, takes the opposite view, thinking Oleg should get to decide for himself.

Elizabeth didn’t even own her choice to become an Illegal. She asked her mother and her mother told her what to do.

 

PAIGE

Paige earlier had scenes paralleled with Kimmy. Here we see her at the library in between scenes of Todd being terrorized. He signed on to be a spy, just as Paige will, but ultimately was not Venter just as she’s not Elizabeth.

Paige spends the afternoon in the library looking at microfiche. Seems Elizabeth neglected to mention Gregory was a drug dealer. I have come to see Paige’s whole story to be about her handing the identity she tries so hard to define in the face of Elizabeth’s opposition over to Elizabeth, just as Philip warned her not to do, after being traumatized and feeling hopeless. This probably relates to why Pastor Tim is so appealing to her. He’s an adult willing to come to her house and speak for her, albeit for things he wants for her himself.

But in this ep, Paige is still herself and concludes her scene with Elizabeth by saying you can’t just “rob banks and things” which is exactly what Paige will be doing with Elizabeth in S6. Sure, Paige’s values are those of a middle class suburban white girl, but she’s not just being judgmental in questioning what exactly Gregory is supposed to stand for here.

It did make me think about how Paige would have reacted if she’d walked into a conservative church instead of Pastor Tim’s—would she have gone for that too, with an appealing Pastor? I think she definitely would have. Not because she doesn’t have any actual values, but because a conservative church at that time would have been able to present itself as just as morally right. It would still have the missionary trips and the food drives—would probably even be anti-Nuke in 1982. But where Pastor Tim says, “America means well, but it does a lot of bad things in the world we have to correct” a Reagan-friendly church would say, “America has its flaws, but it does a lot of good in the world we have to support!”

Paige is going to confront her parents in just two episodes, but there’s no sign of growing frustration or really anything building in her here, performance-wise. She just seems glum and befuddled, just as she was at the end of Born Again. Maybe she was directed to play it this way, but it’s hard to imagine the actress doing something more pro-active and interesting only to have directors jump in and say, “No, be blander!”

 

ELIZABETH

Of course, when it comes to the parenting question above, Elizabeth is as always on the side of parents making the kids who they think they should be. She backs Philip up in wanting to give wildcard Todd a chance, something she probably wouldn’t have done on her own (though she did see Todd as having been manipulated, probably seeing him like Paige joining the church), but when it comes to Philip’s own son, she pulls an Igor, asking Gabriel to get him out of Afghanistan just as Igor wants Oleg out of Washington. She wants to do something for Philip but also probably thinks it’s easier for all of them if Mischa is at home, maybe doesn’t even consider that Gabriel sees Philip’s distress as a good thing. Naturally she doesn’t consider whether she should interfere with Mischa’s life on principle.

She likewise sees herself—or at least tells herself—that she’s doing the right thing with Paige. In their scene she gets her first chance to at least begin trying to convince a pre-traumatized Paige to come on board. I think her weaknesses in this area are intentional. Elizabeth can be incredibly inspiring to people who want to believe, but since she doesn’t think things through herself, she can’t really argue the moral nuances of it.

Elizabeth says Gregory’s life was “complicated” and that things aren’t “simple”—the same argument she’ll use in S6 whenever Paige has a concern. “It’s complicated” is not an invitation to think about the complications, but to ignore them. Elizabeth actually sees things very simply: doing what the Centre wants is good, period. But she can’t say that at this point, so instead she makes this argument: Paige knows the US government is sometimes wrong, therefore what is crime?

This doesn’t begin to address how Gregory “never stopped fighting for what was right” by being a drug dealer, an occupation that probably doesn’t bother Paige because it’s illegal so much as because she associates it with spreading misery and violence. Drug dealing was Gregory’s cover job, but one that gave him the means to trick people into working towards goals they didn’t support, and possibly caused harm to the people in his community. Elizabeth hasn’t thought through the damage a drug dealer might cause and decided it was worth it, she simply doesn’t care about anything beyond the advantage to her.

Kerri Russell plays the conversation really interestingly, though. She leans down on the counter and adopts this manner like she’s trying to talk to Paige like a buddy—very artificial coming from Elizabeth. And I realized omg, she’s totally doing Pastor Tim! She’s adopting the way he talks Paige through things, subtly flattering the wisdom she already has and trying to lead her to the conclusion she wants. Like she does this little sideways squinchy mouth thing to indicate “Hmm…it’s hard to explain things sometimes, isn’t it?”

Elizabeth’s spent months watching Pastor Tim in action and this is very reminiscent of his talk with Paige on the bus back in Operation Chronicle. Except while Pastor Tim’s thoughts might often be facile, they aren’t flat-out illogical like Elizabeth’s are here. Elizabeth’s real logic just doesn’t lend itself to this sort of thing. When she’s really doing her thing, she’s unconflicted and sincere and often cold. It’s not easy for her to get into the head of an outsider.

This ep also shows Elizabeth sort of running back and forth trying to manage Philip and Paige. It won’t be the last time she starts off seeing herself as the person in control, managing the other two, only to eventually discover she can’t control them at all and in fact she’s the one out of control.

 

PHILIP

Philip, meanwhile, has his own logic to lay down with Martha and he’s scary good at it. I think the two scenes are intentionally paralleled, and it’s not just the differences in the targets (Paige and Martha) and their situations that make Elizabeth’s attempt fall short.

I said how in the last ep there’s moments where Clark is filmed in horror movie fashion, but it’s there in the performance too. Philip doesn’t want to hurt Martha, but there are these moments where he’s waiting to see if he’s convinced her where he’s clearly very much a threat. It’s not that he looks ready to kill her, but he looks ready to start thinking about needing to kill her. You can feel her life teetering on the brink.

He makes the right choice in what to play with Martha too—one that will I think be reflected in his later decision to tell Paige the truth. He gets that Martha’s priority, like Paige’s, is the relationship, not a need to have him justify exactly what his schemes are about. So rather than get into the weeds of some other fake reason he needed her to bug the FBI, he just tacitly admits to tricking her—but then falling in love with her. People aren’t convinced by clever cover stories. It’s the emotion they carry that wins them over. Elizabeth can’t do that in her scene with Paige. (This applies also to telling Paige the truth in Stingers and Stan’s reaction to Philip in S6.)

Of course, Philip mixes in some truth as well—he really does think Martha’s kind and good. He says he would do anything for her, which is not true for Martha, but is how Philip expresses the love he feels for others. He tells Pastor Tim he’d do anything for Paige and in S6 tells Elizabeth he’d do anything for her and in fact, he just did. (Though in that scene he’s also recognizing that that has to stop.) What’s great with Martha is that he says “I would do anything for you…to protect you.” And there is no mistaking the note of threat he puts into that last part. She needs his protection. Even his next line, “Is that enough?” is pretty scary—and he sounds more like Philip the KGB agent when he says it too, not Clark or Philip the suburban dad. And the final “Or do you need more than that?” is pretty scary too, especially since it’s just his disembodied voice with the camera fully on Martha.

 

MARTHA

When this ep first played there was an instinctive rejection of the idea that Martha could be sticking with Clark for love. Yet her whole character has always been based on her as a romantic.

It’s hard to really know what she’s thinking, of course, but there’s obviously a lot going on. She’s already waited to confront Clark until after her meeting with Walter Taffet. Getting through that might have given her some confidence, at least enough to keep her from panicking. I feel like she must have been looking at Taffet the whole time imagining Clark in this role and maybe not being able to see it.

Oh, and Martha is wearing this very 80s pin in this ep that looks like a person leaping and every time I see it it’s like it’s telegraphing her inner state of mind and how much she wants to jump right out of her own skin. She’s calm but her pin is in a constant panic.

So she works up the nerve to confront Clark and then has a second breakdown when he confirms her fears. Alison Wright is just so good here. When Clark says “to protect you” the realization on her face in that moment is even more significant than her reactions over the pen being found. When he asks “Is that enough?” her face starts to crumple like she’s going to wail again, and then she just cuts it off. It’s just so tense—like there’s obviously a ton going on inside her but she’s also reacting to the external stuff. Clearly this isn’t just a patsy who would believe anything. Just bravo.

This is just the type of thing that’s such a contrast to important Paige scenes where the actress always seems to be playing “there’s a lot going on inside me” rather than having anything actually going on inside her, and pausing to try to indicate spontaneity but just slowing down the scene. I don’t mean that as a comparison of the two as actors, but to follow why the characters tend to come across so differently, with one story having so much more tension than the other. Because Martha does, imo, give some clues about what Paige is supposed to be dealing with later.

I also remember someone at the time saying they were surprised that after all this Clark and Martha apparently have sex at the end of the ep, since they’re lying in bed naked at the end, but I think that’s important for Philip’s decisions later. That is, we only see their interaction up until Martha submits to him, but after that there must have been a lot of desperate romance to lay the foundations for this new normal and that’s what would have given Philip the sense that she was really in, or at least could be. Elizabeth’s conversation with Paige ends in disappointment for Elizabeth. It’s the end of that line of discussion for now. Philip succeeds with Martha which means it was only the start of more convincing from him.

In the next ep, we’ll get a sense of what reality Martha has talked herself into believing.

[Roseanna]

On 9/26/2020 at 7:43 AM, sistermagpie said:

but when it comes to Philip’s own son, she pulls an Igor, asking Gabriel to get him out of Afghanistan just as Igor wants Oleg out of Washington. She wants to do something for Philip but also probably thinks it’s easier for all of them if Mischa is at home, maybe doesn’t even consider that Gabriel sees Philip’s distress as a good thing. Naturally she doesn’t consider whether she should interfere with Mischa’s life on principle.

I think that "interfering with Mischa's life in principle" isn't in the same category as manipulating Paige to to become a spy because Mischa's life was in danger. Many parents, regardless of ideology or country, would try to pull the strings if only they only had power (while others of course wouldn't but some would regret it if their sons died). 

In Elizabeth's case it's essential that her love towards Philip wins her ideology and patriotism, just as in the case of Jared she put his well-being above her promise to his mother to tell him his parents were spies.

In a way it was admirable that Oleg's father didn't to use his influence as a member of nomenklatura to keep his son out of Afghanistan, but on the other hand he put his own morality before his son, although (if I understood right) he didn't regard the war as just. 

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I think that "interfering with Mischa's life in principle" isn't in the same category as manipulating Paige to to become a spy because Mischa's life was in danger. Many parents, regardless of ideology or country, would try to pull the strings if only they only had power (while others of course wouldn't but some would regret it if their sons died). 

In Elizabeth's case it's essential that her love towards Philip wins her ideology and patriotism, just as in the case of Jared she put his well-being above her promise to his mother to tell him his parents were spies.

In a way it was admirable that Oleg's father didn't to use his influence as a member of nomenklatura to keep his son out of Afghanistan, but on the other hand he put his own morality before his son, although (if I understood right) he didn't regard the war as just. 

I just realized I forgot to get to the main thing I thought about this! I actually didn't mean to just leave it at comparing Elizabeth getting Mischa out to Igor wanting Oleg out, using his influence. Because the real reason I was bringing it up was that I wanted to say that PHILIP isn't the one to ask for that--in fact I know he specifically will say he didn't. 

Philip is the one who'll commit more and more to not trying to force his own ideas about what's right onto the kids, and he doesn't ever try to have any influence on Mischa's life at all. He obviously wants him to be okay and is worried about him, but he doesn't try to influence things directly, perhaps because one of the few things Irina told him about Mischa was that he wanted to serve. So Elizabeth asking this of Gabriel is important because it shows her putting Philip's feelings above what the country is asking, but not because she's willing to interfere at all, because that's not at issue for her. Where as Philip has been worried about Mischa for a while, and is working to try to protect him by doing his own job, but he's completely hands-off to Mischa himself--and he'll stay that way throughout the show. 

[Umbelina]

On 9/25/2020 at 9:43 PM, sistermagpie said:

NCGOBO

For years I’ve had the impression that Ncgobo said something about racism in Moscow, but he never actually says anything on the subject to anybody. In the last ep he spoke to Elizabeth about his sons. In this ep he tells Philip he can’t remember his wife’s face and he wouldn’t blame her if she was sleeping with someone else.

He did though!  He talks about how he was treated differently in Russia (where he went for insurgency training) and I believe referred to as a name that had something to do with his race.  Elizabeth actually listens for once in her life, and is embarrassed and says something like "we are still evolving" and moves on from it.  

It was just about the only time Elizabeth actually listened when anything was said that was negative about her glorious USSR.  

Was he in two episodes?  I can't remember, but I know the tire burning death was disturbing and I have no real desire to watch it again.  The most important things that happened (to me) was Elizabeth hearing about the racism in her country, AND her dismissing the recruit because he was seen.

[Domestic Assassin]

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

He did though!  He talks about how he was treated differently in Russia (where he went for insurgency training) and I believe referred to as a name that had something to do with his race.  Elizabeth actually listens for once in her life, and is embarrassed and says something like "we are still evolving" and moves on from it.  

It was just about the only time Elizabeth actually listened when anything was said that was negative about her glorious USSR.  

Was he in two episodes?  I can't remember, but I know the tire burning death was disturbing and I have no real desire to watch it again.  The most important things that happened (to me) was Elizabeth hearing about the racism in her country, AND her dismissing the recruit because he was seen.

It's a deleted scene on the season 3 DVD. They called him Mowgli.

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, Domestic Assassin said:

It's a deleted scene on the season 3 DVD. They called him Mowgli.

Thanks.  I love DVD extras, so that must have been where I saw that whole discussion between them.  Pity they cut it from the show.  It was just about the only time Elizabeth actually heard and responded honestly to something negative about her country.

[sistermagpie]

18 hours ago, Umbelina said:

He did though!  He talks about how he was treated differently in Russia (where he went for insurgency training) and I believe referred to as a name that had something to do with his race.  Elizabeth actually listens for once in her life, and is embarrassed and says something like "we are still evolving" and moves on from it.  

 

Honestly, it never happens. Ncgobo is in 2 episodes, Walter Taffet and Divestment. He only has one private conversation with Elizabeth and he's talking about his sons and worrying they won't become fighters. The only thing he ever says about Moscow is that he was on his way home from there to see his wife and kids when they told him to come to Washington, that it's been a year and a half since he's been home but it's more than worth it it the catch Venter. 

Venter has a few things to say before he gets set on fire. He calls the Soviet's Ncgobo's "kafferboetie Communist masters" who don't really care about him, but only want the gold and the diamonds and the land. There is a quick close-up of Elizabeth (and not Philip) when he's yelling about that.

8 hours ago, Domestic Assassin said:

It's a deleted scene on the season 3 DVD. They called him Mowgli.

 

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Thanks.  I love DVD extras, so that must have been where I saw that whole discussion between them.  Pity they cut it from the show.  It was just about the only time Elizabeth actually heard and responded honestly to something negative about her country.

Oh! Well, that explains it because I had no idea where it was supposed to be. So what's the conversation? Is it when they're talking in the earlier scene? It probably explains why there's a close-up on Elizabeth at that moment if so. What's her reaction when he says that, exactly?

ETA: I responded first without seeing there were two more posts. That's why I figure it out halfway through my own post. LOL. Left the first response in just for the Elizabeth close-up stuff.

Edited October 2, 2020 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

26 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh! Well, that explains it because I had no idea where it was supposed to be. So what's the conversation? Is it when they're talking in the earlier scene? It probably explains why there's a close-up on Elizabeth at that moment if so. What's her reaction when he says that, exactly?

ETA: I responded first without seeing there were two more posts. That's why I figure it out halfway through my own post. LOL. Left the first response in just for the Elizabeth close-up stuff.

If I watch the extras or deleted scenes again I will try to transcribe it for you.  I THINK they were standing in that big yard, and she was all excited he had been in Moscow for training, and kind of urging or willing him to tell her how wonderful it was there (she's very proud of the USSR.)  He wasn't at all insulting, but tells her a few examples of the racism there including the name calling, and no people of color, and some other discriminations he experienced, but is more resigned than upset about it.  Liz goes on with the "it's a process/we will get better" stuff and is pretty obviously a bit shocked, a bit embarrassed, but that plays mostly on her face, she may have apologized and he brushed it off with something like 'no need, it's the way it is, I appreciated the training' or whatever.

I am really surprised that scene was cut.  As I said, it was the only time Elizabeth didn't automatically dismiss any and all criticism about the glorious USSR.  I thought it was good for her, but maybe that's why the did cut it, mustn't show any hesitation in Liz.

ETA Odd that a deleted scene is the one that I thought was the best scene in the episode.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Umbelina