The Americans - General Discussion

[Zella]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes! I love Arkady's evolving feelings towards both Nina and Oleg. It's a really cool dynamic between the trio of them, almost quasi-parental without Arkady being the parent. He seems to identify with both of them in different ways. 

They do really have an interesting change in dynamic. Arkady and Oleg solo scenes are some of my favorite too. When I first watched season 2, I just assumed that Oleg and Arkady would always be at war with each other because one thinks the other is a cocky, overly privileged product of nepotism, who thinks the other is a stodgy, unimaginative bureaucrat. I loved how that evolved, and they actually ended up being friends. 

I especially enjoy that episode fairly early where Oleg keeps haranguing Arkady about Baklanov, that he needed to be forcefully repatriated, because he assumes that Arkady and the Center are too dumb to see Baklanov's potential and are just giving up on him, and finally at the end, Arkady snaps at him that a forcible repatriation is already underway. The look on Oleg's face cracks me up because it's like he's finally processing that maybe Arkady is more ruthlessly efficient than he's given him credit for but also realizing he'd been shut out of the operation before then and that his string pulling only goes so far. LOL  

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It also seems like there's so many interesting reasons for Arkady to have a different reaction to Nina's troubles as Oleg. He's a bit older, yes, but he's also not coming from the kind of privilege Oleg is. It's quite a journey for him to eventually approve of Oleg's giving up William. I always thought Arkady was really angry at Nina for getting herself into trouble too, because he really did like her.

Yes I think it's partially age and background, but I also think it's just because Arkady isn't blinded by romantic feelings for her either. Oleg is. I think he genuinely loved her and would always take her side. I really liked Nina as a character and always understood why she did what she did (and even admired her for it at times), but I agreed with Arkady 100% and could totally understand the KGB's position about her. To them, it looks like she just keeps taking generous second chances and throwing them away. I'm honestly surprised she stayed alive as long as she did. 

Another scene between them that I particularly love is when Arkady and Oleg are arguing about her being sentenced, and nothing Arkady says is making any impact on him until he floats the possibility that Nina maybe genuinely loved Stan, and Oleg is just quietly destroyed by this knowledge, and it seems to finally dawn on Arkady that Oleg is really infatuated with her, to the point that he's never going to be reasonable about it. 

[sistermagpie]

56 minutes ago, Paloma said:

When I referred to Philip and Elizabeth's lack of remorse, I was really referring more to the idea that they could murder people and do other terrible things without being overwhelmed with guilt, the way Henry was over his little crime. They may feel some remorse when they have to hurt someone who is not an enemy (e.g., when they deceive or threaten a decent person into helping them), but they can live with it as the price of the larger cause...until they can't. Philip has always seemed to have more difficulty living with this price, and the more he sees that this price affects his children (even if his children don't yet know it), the closer he comes to a breaking point. So I am actually agreeing with you that Philip recognized himself in Henry in that they both wanted to be good people but had done things that made them look like bad people and would have difficulty explaining their way out of it.

Of course, this makes me think how Henry actually *isn't* overwhelmed with guilt over his crime. He's devastated at the idea that the neighbors *think* he's bad when he isn't. He even hates them for thinking that about him, he says, while defending his actions.

But I still agree with you, of course. Henry didn't actually do anything so wrong, after all. It just makes it more similar. Philip's going to be asking himself how much he can justify what he's doing later.

37 minutes ago, Zella said:

They do really have an interesting change in dynamic. Arkady and Oleg solo scenes are some of my favorite too. When I first watched season 2, I just assumed that Oleg and Arkady would always be at war with each other because one thinks the other is a cocky, overly privileged product of nepotism, who thinks the other is a stodgy, unimaginative bureaucrat. I loved how that evolved, and they actually ended up being friends. 

IKR? I just recently watched the scene where Oleg says he's going back to Russia and Arkady says he's a good son, because he knows Oleg is going home for his mother's sake even though he really really wants to stay where he is. And then we've also got Arkady standing up for Oleg staying when his father wants him to come home. It's so great watching them come to understand each other better.

In fact, that's another thing that's more complicated than we might have thought, because at first, when his father is calling him home, you guess that Igor is maybe some overbearing father who just wants to control his son--like Oleg says, he's used to things going his way. So Arkady seems like the good father vs. Igor. But ultimately, it's very different and they work together.

37 minutes ago, Zella said:

I especially enjoy that episode fairly early where Oleg keeps haranguing Arkady about Baklanov, that he needed to be forcefully repatriated, because he assumes that Arkady and the Center are too dumb to see Baklanov's potential and are just giving up on him, and finally at the end, Arkady snaps at him that a forcible repatriation is already underway. The look on Oleg's face cracks me up because it's like he's finally processing that maybe Arkady is more ruthlessly efficient than he's given him credit for but also realizing he'd been shut out of the operation before then and that his string pulling only goes so far. LOL  

LOL!  It's like the "Is President Reagan climbing the walls of the building in his cowboy hat?" because Oleg thinks Arkady just doesn't understand what's important and what's isn't. 

Also, on the other side, through Oleg Arkady gets to hear some behind the scenes government stuff. Like when Oleg tells Arkady about how the propeller maybe wasn't a trick at all. 

37 minutes ago, Zella said:

Yes I think it's partially age and background, but I also think it's just because Arkady isn't blinded by romantic feelings for her either. Oleg is. I think he genuinely loved her and would always take her side. I really liked Nina as a character and always understood why she did what she did (and even admired her for it at times), but I agreed with Arkady 100% and could totally understand the KGB's position about her. To them, it looks like she just keeps taking generous second chances and throwing them away. I'm honestly surprised she stayed alive as long as she did. 

Another scene between them that I particularly love is when Arkady and Oleg are arguing about her being sentenced, and nothing Arkady says is making any impact on him until he floats the possibility that Nina maybe genuinely loved Stan, and Oleg is just quietly destroyed by this knowledge, and it seems to finally dawn on Arkady that Oleg is really infatuated with her, to the point that he's never going to be reasonable about it. 

Yes, and it just drives home how neither Oleg or Arkady can understand what really happened with Nina's death. Oleg is suggesting that maybe they just don't understand what she did. Arkady sees her as throwing another chance away because she just doesn't get it. And they're both right, in some ways, but neither understands that Nina was making a choice to stop caring what the government wanted her to do. It was an existential choice, not a bad strategy move, and nothing to do with greed or whichever guy she loved or not. If there was a man she was choosing there, it was Baklanov. But we're just watching two guys who cared about her and have limited information try to understand her through their own issues.

It's a real contrast, imo, to Stan's reaction to Nina's death. Somebody here said that Stan actually seems happier after he hears Nina has died because now he doesn't have to worry about saving her and they really seemed to have a point. Of the three of them, Stan always seems to me like the one who knows Nina the least. He projects on her way too much to even really see her imo.

[Zella]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

So Arkady seems like the good father vs. Igor. But ultimately, it's very different and they work together.

Yes I really ended up liking Igor a lot more than I thought I would. He's initially set up as a jerk, but on a rewatch, I'm a lot more sympathetic to him the entire time. I do think he genuinely wants what is best for his son, as he understands it, which of course is not always what Oleg sees as best for himself. But I don't think he's a bad guy at all. 

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

If there was a man she was choosing there, it was Baklanov. But we're just watching two guys who cared about her and have limited information try to understand her through their own issues.

Agreed. One of the things that stood out to me too during this rewatch is that she sleeps with both Stan and Oleg for the first time after they've done something for her. For Stan, it's after he's gotten her out of the situation with Vasili, and for Oleg, it's after he helps her beat the lie detector test. I think she's so used to men lusting after her and wanting that from her that she is genuinely baffled when Baklanov turns her down, but it makes her respect him far more.

Incidentally, I think a big part of why she gets along so well with Arkady is that he never hits on her or expresses any romantic interest in her. He treats her like a professional colleague, which she never got from Vasili, even before she started sleeping with him. 

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

Yes I really ended up liking Igor a lot more than I thought I would. He's initially set up as a jerk, but on a rewatch, I'm a lot more sympathetic to him the entire time. I do think he genuinely wants what is best for his son, as he understands it, which of course is not always what Oleg sees as best for himself. But I don't think he's a bad guy at all. 

Yeah, he's really surprising. For a character that's not in it very much until late in the series there's a real sense of how complicated this guy is given his history. And you can see how his own integrity has influenced both of his sons so much--and unfortunately maybe leads them both into trouble--and killed in Oleg's brother's case. The moment when Oleg basically blames him for Evgeney's death is pretty brutal, and I can understand how hard it is for him that his son doesn't even get military honors. 

Meanwhile, that poor mother. Wow. She's been through it.

1 minute ago, Zella said:

Agreed. One of the things that stood out to me too during this rewatch is that she sleeps with both Stan and Oleg for the first time after they've done something for her. For Stan, it's after he's gotten her out of the situation with Vasili, and for Oleg, it's after he helps her beat the lie detector test. I think she's so used to men lusting after her and wanting that from her that she is genuinely baffled when Baklanov turns her down, but it makes her respect him far more.

Incidentally, I think a big part of why she gets along so well with Arkady is that he never hits on her or expresses any romantic interest in her. He treats her like a professional colleague, which she never got from Vasili, even before she started sleeping with him. 

Yes--Vasily does that whole tea thing in the ep before she sleeps with him, clearly unable to see her as just another colleague. Arkady would just never have fallen for that. I like how he can even be friendly with her without being either fatherly or romantic. Like when he comes into her new office and finds her with her feet on the desk and just laughs and says it's okay, it's her office. Baklanov also doesn't want her sexually, but he probably would have if he'd met her back in the US.

[Paloma]

13 hours ago, Zella said:

Another scene between them that I particularly love is when Arkady and Oleg are arguing about her being sentenced, and nothing Arkady says is making any impact on him until he floats the possibility that Nina maybe genuinely loved Stan, and Oleg is just quietly destroyed by this knowledge, and it seems to finally dawn on Arkady that Oleg is really infatuated with her, to the point that he's never going to be reasonable about it. 

I (re)watched this scene yesterday and, although I agree with your comment about it, it made me think differently about Nina's feelings for Stan than I did during the first watch years ago. At that time I did think she may have fallen in love with Stan and that her relationship with Oleg was at least in part to keep him on her side. But now I am finding it hard to believe that she ever loved Stan because (1) he forced her to become a traitor (even though her own actions made her vulnerable to his demand) and, despite his promises, would not let her out of the arrangement no matter how many times she expressed worry about getting caught and punished; and (2) Stan is not lovable, LOL. OK, the second reason is my opinion, but I dislike him even more on the rewatch than I did originally, for the way he treated his wife as well as what he did to Nina. Nina may have chosen to sleep with him and act like she loved him to get information and to convince him to help her get away, but I don't see that as entirely voluntary because of his power over what would happen to her; additionally, once she told Arkady what had happened, she was essentially forced to continue the relationship and the sex to save herself. I just don't see anything in Stan's looks, personality, or skill in bed that would make Nina fall in love with him despite the circumstances of their forced relationship (other than perhaps the Stockholm Syndrome that some long-term kidnapping victims experience).

I had forgotten the scene when Oleg's father came to visit Nina in prison, but seeing that in my rewatch binge yesterday made me believe that Nina's feelings for Oleg were real. She asked his father to tell Oleg that she wasn't pretending with him, and I interpreted that as her meaning that she was pretending with Stan. It's possible that she said that to Oleg's father to convince him to help her, but it didn't seem that way--she seemed to have come to terms with her fate. In any case, I don't necessarily think Oleg was the love of Nina's life, but once she got over her initial annoyance or dislike of his attitude, she seemed to really enjoy their time together, and I think her feelings for him were genuine.

[Zella]

8 hours ago, Paloma said:

I (re)watched this scene yesterday and, although I agree with your comment about it, it made me think differently about Nina's feelings for Stan than I did during the first watch years ago. At that time I did think she may have fallen in love with Stan and that her relationship with Oleg was at least in part to keep him on her side. But now I am finding it hard to believe that she ever loved Stan because (1) he forced her to become a traitor (even though her own actions made her vulnerable to his demand) and, despite his promises, would not let her out of the arrangement no matter how many times she expressed worry about getting caught and punished; and (2) Stan is not lovable, LOL. OK, the second reason is my opinion, but I dislike him even more on the rewatch than I did originally, for the way he treated his wife as well as what he did to Nina. Nina may have chosen to sleep with him and act like she loved him to get information and to convince him to help her get away, but I don't see that as entirely voluntary because of his power over what would happen to her; additionally, once she told Arkady what had happened, she was essentially forced to continue the relationship and the sex to save herself. I just don't see anything in Stan's looks, personality, or skill in bed that would make Nina fall in love with him despite the circumstances of their forced relationship (other than perhaps the Stockholm Syndrome that some long-term kidnapping victims experience).

I had forgotten the scene when Oleg's father came to visit Nina in prison, but seeing that in my rewatch binge yesterday made me believe that Nina's feelings for Oleg were real. She asked his father to tell Oleg that she wasn't pretending with him, and I interpreted that as her meaning that she was pretending with Stan. It's possible that she said that to Oleg's father to convince him to help her, but it didn't seem that way--she seemed to have come to terms with her fate. In any case, I don't necessarily think Oleg was the love of Nina's life, but once she got over her initial annoyance or dislike of his attitude, she seemed to really enjoy their time together, and I think her feelings for him were genuine.

I agree that her feelings for Oleg were genuine. 

I don't think Nina loved Stan, but I think her feelings for him were complicated. As I pointed out yesterday, she first has sex with him after he resolves the Vasili situation for her, and I think for a brief period, she was very grateful to him for that because in her mind he saved her from the situation, even if he created the situation too.

I think during that brief period (it's really only a handful of episodes in season 1) she probably convinced herself that Stan was genuinely going to protect her and that she could trust him to have her back. It's not love, but I don't think she was entirely faking her gratitude and trust in him. I think at one point she even tells him that when you're living this double life that you have to be completely honest with someone, and at that time, Stan was the person she could be completely honest with because he's the only one who knows what her situation is. 

His killing of Vlad and not admitting it is what seems to really turn her against him because I think it destroys her trust in him. And at the same, she's realizing she can actually trust Arkady, so she reevaluates things and decides to take a gamble on coming clean with him. 

I think after that she does genuinely despise and resent Stan and only sleeps with him because she's required to do so, but I don't think she ever stopped thinking of him as a backup protection plan if things fall through with the KGB, and that's why she panicked and went to him before she was supposed to and said she thought they knew late in season 2, unaware the KGB was still recording the conversation. (Incidentally, I'd love to know the second unreported meeting she had with Stan that was recorded since every other scene she has with him after turning back to the Soviet side seems to be her doing what the KGB has asked her to do. I've been obsessed with that ever since I first watched the show. LOL)

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Paloma said:

I (re)watched this scene yesterday and, although I agree with your comment about it, it made me think differently about Nina's feelings for Stan than I did during the first watch years ago. At that time I did think she may have fallen in love with Stan and that her relationship with Oleg was at least in part to keep him on her side. But now I am finding it hard to believe that she ever loved Stan because (1) he forced her to become a traitor (even though her own actions made her vulnerable to his demand) and, despite his promises, would not let her out of the arrangement no matter how many times she expressed worry about getting caught and punished; and (2) Stan is not lovable, LOL. OK, the second reason is my opinion, but I dislike him even more on the rewatch than I did originally, for the way he treated his wife as well as what he did to Nina. Nina may have chosen to sleep with him and act like she loved him to get information and to convince him to help her get away, but I don't see that as entirely voluntary because of his power over what would happen to her; additionally, once she told Arkady what had happened, she was essentially forced to continue the relationship and the sex to save herself. I just don't see anything in Stan's looks, personality, or skill in bed that would make Nina fall in love with him despite the circumstances of their forced relationship (other than perhaps the Stockholm Syndrome that some long-term kidnapping victims experience).

I had forgotten the scene when Oleg's father came to visit Nina in prison, but seeing that in my rewatch binge yesterday made me believe that Nina's feelings for Oleg were real. She asked his father to tell Oleg that she wasn't pretending with him, and I interpreted that as her meaning that she was pretending with Stan. It's possible that she said that to Oleg's father to convince him to help her, but it didn't seem that way--she seemed to have come to terms with her fate. In any case, I don't necessarily think Oleg was the love of Nina's life, but once she got over her initial annoyance or dislike of his attitude, she seemed to really enjoy their time together, and I think her feelings for him were genuine.

This is how I see it too. On rewatch it's just so hard for me to imagine that Nina has any real feelings for Stan, or at least deep ones. He even killed poor Vlad and gets abusive with her when she doesn't know what happened to Amador.

But more than that, Stan's whole relationship with Nina just seems to have so little to do with who Nina is. He seems to just turn her into some generic foreign victim who he's going to save by letting her become American. He makes up stories about how he's going to come and visit her when she's placed wherever she is--how would that work? I feel like Stan's biggest motivation at all times is that he wants desperately to feel like a hero and Nina gives him an easy hero narrative to follow despite the fact that he's the guy who put her in danger. 

With Oleg, though, she has real conversations about things other than how he's going to save her etc. She sees him for what he is, but then sees him more clearly. She knows about his hobbies. He understands her story about how exciting it was for her to be at Young Pioneer Camp. He understands the danger that she's in. I don't think she's madly in love with him, but I think she enjoys his company more than she does with Stan.

Stan and Oleg both try to rescue her when she's in prison, but I feel like Stan's just doing his usual hero thing, that it isn't very unusual for him to go against the FBI and just do what he wants, while Oleg is making deliberate, thoughtful decisions and after Nina is dead he still thinks about her as a real person who got chewed up by the system. I feel like for Stan he more likely remembers her as almost a fantasy figure and it doesn't occur to him how little he knew her or cared to really know her. Even his plan to rescue her in S3 is completely unrealistic, with him projecting his feelings about her onto the CIA.

I love, btw, how Adderholt shows up and immediately sees all the holes in this love story.

6 minutes ago, Zella said:

I don't think Nina loved Stan, but I think her feelings for him were complicated. As I pointed out yesterday, she first has sex with him after he resolves the Vasili situation for her, and I think for a brief period, she was very grateful to him for that because in her mind he saved her from the situation, even if he created the situation too.

I think during that brief period (it's really only a handful of episodes in season 1) she probably convinced herself that Stan was genuinely going to protect her and that she could trust him to have her back. It's not love, but I don't think she was entirely faking her gratitude and trust in him. I think at one point she even tells him that when you're living this double life that you have to be completely honest with someone, and at that time, Stan was the person she could be completely honest with because he's the only one who knows what her situation is. 

Yes, I agree. Throughout season 1 she has good reason to throw herself into the idea that he is rescuing her and she's frankly not stupid to think that. He is genuinely desperate to be her white knight, immediately pestering Gaad to get her out when as an FBI agent he should be wanting to keep her where she is. There's also that moment where she recognizes that Stan has put himself into danger because of her and I think that's real too. It's just that none of this ever comes anywhere close to the two of them having anything to talk about or really getting each other.

6 minutes ago, Zella said:

His killing of Vlad and not admitting it is what seems to really turn her against him because I think it destroys her trust in him. And at the same, she's realizing she can actually trust Arkady, so she reevaluates things and decides to take a gamble on coming clean with him. 

I think she also does want to be a loyal Russian, too. When she's in danger she's ready to defect for good reason, and she gets herself in danger by sending contraband home, which seems very much who she was before coming to the US as well. She wanted an exciting life. But she loved that Young Pioneers pin and I think that oath means something to her. She always has something in her that wants to be admirable or something, no matter how flexible she can be about little things like contraband. Ultimately she shows the capacity for genuine philosophical thought and action.

I guess, again, that's why it seems like Stan doesn't know her, because Oleg and her husband, Boris, seem to just interact with her as a complicated, likeable woman. (Poor Boris's wife.)

6 minutes ago, Zella said:

I think after that she does genuinely despise and resent Stan and only sleeps with him because she's required to do so, but I don't think she ever stopped thinking of him as a backup protection plan if things fall through with the KGB, and that's why she panicked and went to him before she was supposed to and said she thought they knew late in season 2, unaware the KGB was still recording the conversation. (Incidentally, I'd love to know the second unreported meeting she had with Stan that was recorded since every other scene she has with him after turning back to the Soviet side seems to be her doing what the KGB has asked her to do. I've been obsessed with that ever since I first watched the show. LOL)

Absolutely--which one was it? I don't think she ever considered being a triple agent or anything, but yes, I absolutely think she was trying to keep Stan as some sort of backup. How could she not? 

Even more sad for her is that she gets caught up with Stan before her life at the Rezidentura changes for the better. Not that it was bad before, but with Vasily she did seem like a particularly vulnerable worker bee because of her looks. (There are some viewers who to this day insist she was "just a secretary" who was thrown into espionage because of Stan instead of a KGB agent, like she was a Russian Martha.) But with Arkady she has a good relationship with her boss, the "soft mattress" guy turns out to be smarter and more interesting than she imagined--a potentially good friend even if they weren't sleeping together--and both of them are genuinely rooting for her to get out of trouble and pull off what would be a pretty impressive intelligence coup. 

It's not Stan's fault that she blew it--he was just doing his job. But it's more tragic after watching her in S2.

[Zella]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But more than that, Stan's whole relationship with Nina just seems to have so little to do with who Nina is. He seems to just turn her into some generic foreign victim who he's going to save by letting her become American. He makes up stories about how he's going to come and visit her when she's placed wherever she is--how would that work? I feel like Stan's biggest motivation at all times is that he wants desperately to feel like a hero and Nina gives him an easy hero narrative to follow despite the fact that he's the guy who put her in danger. 

With Oleg, though, she has real conversations about things other than how he's going to save her etc. She sees him for what he is, but then sees him more clearly. She knows about his hobbies. He understands her story about how exciting it was for her to be at Young Pioneer Camp. He understands the danger that she's in. I don't think she's madly in love with him, but I think she enjoys his company more than she does with Stan.

Stan and Oleg both try to rescue her when she's in prison, but I feel like Stan's just doing his usual hero thing, that it isn't very unusual for him to go against the FBI and just do what he wants, while Oleg is making deliberate, thoughtful decisions and after Nina is dead he still thinks about her as a real person who got chewed up by the system. I feel like for Stan he more likely remembers her as almost a fantasy figure and it doesn't occur to him how little he knew her or cared to really know her. Even his plan to rescue her in S3 is completely unrealistic, with him projecting his feelings about her onto the CIA.

I love, btw, how Adderholt shows up and immediately sees all the holes in this love story.

One of the things that consistently fascinates me in the show is that when it comes to purely work-related stuff, Stan has very good instincts, but when it comes to his personal life, his instincts are always wrong. Like, Stan should just accept that any inclination he has on a personal relationship should just be ignored because it will always be wrong. LOL 

I agree that he never has a particularly realistic view of his relationship with Nina. I nearly injured my eyes rolling them when he talked about visiting her after she defected, and even before I'd finished the show, when he and Oleg concocted this scheme about trading Zinaida for her, I just knew that nobody up top was going to care about that, on either side. 

Another great WTF Stan moment with Nina is when Gene recommends The French Lieutenant's Woman to him to watch with his wife, and he instead chooses to watch it with his Soviet mistress and is baffled when it blows up in his face. 😂

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It's not Stan's fault that she blew it--he was just doing his job. But it's more tragic after watching her in S2.

Agreed. I've seen a lot of people on discussion boards for the show be mad at Stan for not turning over ECHO to save Nina, but I feel like that was the first right decision he made in a long time. It sucks for Nina, but I think he finally woke up a little about the nature of their relationship and the situation he'd placed himself in as an FBI agent. 

I will give Stan some kudos for learning a little something about handling sources through the course of the show. He botches up both Nina and Oleg by playing lone wolf and being way too emotional and involved to do it properly and without becoming compromised or vulnerable in the process, but with his last charges, I noticed he always meets her with Aderholt, which I think helped maintain that in a much more professional fashion. 

[sistermagpie]

19 minutes ago, Zella said:

One of the things that consistently fascinates me in the show is that when it comes to purely work-related stuff, Stan has very good instincts, but when it comes to his personal life, his instincts are always wrong. Like, Stan should just accept that any inclination he has on a personal relationship should just be ignored because it will always be wrong. LOL 

Yes! And yet it's so consistent that I totally buy it. Because he's not so much always making mistakes but making the *same* mistakes. It's one reason I agreed with Bannon who didn't buy Stan had been undercover for 3 years--I can't believe it either, but it's okay because it's just backstory and I just replace it in my head with something else.

So to me it seems like he's so wrapped up in trying be the hero and not feeling like one (maybe because of what he was supposed to be have done while away), that it's so easy for people to play to that blindspot. I love how in that scene where Sandra blows up at him--actually both times she really lays into him--she does it by telling him that *he* is the bad guy. She knows he's just more comfortable seeing himself as trying to do the right thing.

I was really happy he didn't hand over Echo--and it made more sense to me for him as a character. At first I wasn't sure why, but looking back I think it's in large part because that would have made him a bad guy in his own eyes. He was never in love with Nina in the style of some passionate lover who would just do anything for her. He just didn't want to be bad. Just look at the way he is about Oleg, after all. Oleg does this heroic thing by handing over William and Stan can't stand to be dishonorable to him in return by using it against him. But he goes to Gaad's wife to get her to justify that for him and is surprised when she doesn't see that the way he does. LOL!

It's why you can actually believe that he'd marry a Soviet spy, whether he did or not. Or that he is confused as to why his son isn't pleased with him the way the kid across the street is, etc. Even Philip, in the end, imo plays to this in Stan. People remembered him using his friendship with Stan to get him to let him go in the garage, but to me what was more important was that Philip made himself into the weak damsel in distress that Stan cared about and couldn't destroy. It wasn't like with Nina where he'd have to hand over secrets. He just had to do nothing and let them leave. I don't know if he ever let himself imagine Nina was playing him, but he knew he couldn't hand over Echo.

19 minutes ago, Zella said:

I agree that he never has a particularly realistic view of his relationship with Nina. I nearly injured my eyes rolling them when he talked about visiting her after she defected, and even before I'd finished the show, when he and Oleg concocted this scheme about trading Zinaida for her, I just knew that nobody up top was going to care about that, on either side. 

LOL. IKR? Stan says there's some guy in Russia that they think is worth more than her. Of course they do, Stan. Nina was at best somebody coerced into working for you. You don't think they'd be more loyal to a willing source?

19 minutes ago, Zella said:

Another great WTF Stan moment with Nina is when Gene recommends The French Lieutenant's Woman to him to watch with his wife, and he instead chooses to watch it with his Soviet mistress and is baffled when it blows up in his face. 😂

LOL. Also I love how in their argument Nina asks if Anna Karenina was a whore for loving Vronski and he's like...who? And when she asks if he hasn't read Anna Karenina he says he hasn't "had the honor" or something like that. Like...it's a book Stan. You can just read it. LOL. But it's just the sort of awkward attempt he would make. (This is the guy who will later make his teenaged son watch The Rocky Horror Picture Show on VHS with the 12-year-old boy neighbor.)

I just love that because it's part of that thing with Stan where he just is what he is and can't be anything else. He thinks Russian the language and the people are just...other. He's taking Russian 6 days a week and after a month can't even say hello or pronounce his defector's first name. The only times he uses it is to occasionally endearingly speak a word like a parlor trick for Nina. (This is a theme that interests me because I feel like there's some characters on the show that are just shown to be the type of people who are not Citizen of the World types and Stan's definitely one of them--unhappily for Elizabeth, Paige is another.)

19 minutes ago, Zella said:

I will give Stan some kudos for learning a little something about handling sources through the course of the show. He botches up both Nina and Oleg by playing lone wolf and being way too emotional and involved to do it properly and without becoming compromised or vulnerable in the process, but with his last charges, I noticed he always meets her with Aderholt, which I think helped maintain that in a much more professional fashion. 

Yes--and yet it also wasn't surprising to me that it was the murder of those two last sources that bothered him so much at the end, rather than, say, the FBI agents killed in Chicago in Harvest. People often felt that as an FBI agent Stan would naturally be more loyal and angry about them, but it's consistent with his character to be angrier about the people he was supposed to be protecting. He doesn't even join in trying to kidnap Arkady until he decides the KGB has kidnapped his partner.

[Zella]

37 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But he goes to Gaad's wife to get her to justify that for him and is surprised when she doesn't see that the way he does. LOL!

Yes I forgot about this scene within this context, but it's one that has really intrigued me ever since I watched the show the first time. I'm in season 5 now and keep trying to remember when she pops up. It just completely blindsided him!

And I find it interesting that he had rewritten Gaad that way in his head for him to say with a straight face that Gaad wouldn't have wanted vengeance. Gaad's wife was right. He totally would have wanted revenge! He's the one who concocted the entire harebrained kidnap Arkady plot completely out of revenge! I hadn't really paid attention to it before, but even the last time Gaad sees Stan, he basically tells him to stop pussyfooting around with Oleg because he feels bad about taking advantage of him. "Whatever comes up... feelings, sympathy, friendship, whatever... you can't lose sight of who these people are." So, Stan then trying to argue with his wife that they shouldn't use Oleg because Gaad wouldn't have wanted it is just a blatant lie. 

43 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

LOL. IKR? Stan says there's some guy in Russia that they think is worth more than her. Of course they do, Stan. Nina was at best somebody coerced into working for you. You don't think they'd be more loyal to a willing source?

Yes this is such a good point. Incidentally, I read a really good book last year about a KGB double agent (The Spy and The Traitor), and the book basically said that if you were a KGB officer looking to sell some secrets, you go the Americans for money because they would pay you far more than any other intelligence service could. But if you wanted to be genuinely protected, you go to MI6, which is what this guy did quite intentionally for that reason, and they bent over backwards to protect him as a source and shield him from being exposed by too eager higher-ups. It's a pretty big difference from how the FBI, CIA, and KGB approach their sources in the show. 

[sistermagpie]

26 minutes ago, Zella said:

Yes I forgot about this scene within this context, but it's one that has really intrigued me ever since I watched the show the first time. I'm in season 5 now and keep trying to remember when she pops up. It just completely blindsided him!

Yes, and for a while he must remember it because when he tells Philip how Gaad was killed he calls the KGB animals, which I took to be partly him remembering Gaad's actual advice to him. The very fact that he would go to Gaad's wife at all to make the decision, as if she's a proxy for Gaad. (And she is, but that's why she tells him what Gaad would actually have thought about it!) But it's so Stan that he wants to feel like he's being noble in a broader way, instead of just that he feels shitty about Oleg doing something noble and Stan using it against him.

You just have to wonder if he's lying or if he's just remembering Gaad as the person he needs him to be now. 

26 minutes ago, Zella said:

Yes this is such a good point. Incidentally, I read a really good book last year about a KGB double agent (The Spy and The Traitor), and the book basically said that if you were a KGB officer looking to sell some secrets, you go the Americans for money because they would pay you far more than any other intelligence service could. But if you wanted to be genuinely protected, you go to MI6, which is what this guy did quite intentionally for that reason, and they bent over backwards to protect him as a source and shield him from being exposed by too eager higher-ups. It's a pretty big difference from how the FBI, CIA, and KGB approach their sources in the show. 

Interesting! And I have to say, in rewatching the early scenes it surprises me how Gaad really is terrible about protecting their source. In In Control he's ready to risk her because he wants to know immediately if the KGB tried to assassinate Reagan. I know the assassination is a big deal, but she's been working for them like a month at that point and he's already found something important enough to risk losing her with Hinkley already in custody.

Then even worse Gaad changes the encryption codes in the cars to taunt the KGB instead of leaving the codes in place and feeding them false information--in the process outing their mole. Sure, they pin it on Vasily, but there's good reason to think that even if that worked the KGB would still have some suspicions about it. Nina had good reason to feel unprotected.

Then Stan's bullying her to find out about Amador because that's his thing--that could have gotten her in trouble if Stan himself hadn't alerted Arkady about it. It's not like Nina could have just dropped something about an FBI agent or the name Chris Amador without outing herself given the real situation. And once Amador's found Gaad seems to just assume Nina's been found out. Stan insists that Amador wouldn't have ratted her out, and he's right in part because nobody ever asked Amador about Nina--Stan's whole idea of what happened to Chris is wrong. And Gaad asks if he's willing to risk Nina's life on Chris's integrity and Stan's all, "And my life too!" 

I don't blame Gaad for not being as eager as Stan is to pull her out, but it's like they have this source in the Rezidentura that's allegedlly so valuable and Stan wants to pull her out immediately because he's fallen in love with her and Gaad barely worries about burning her at all.

(Stan also, obviously, is the opposite of protective when it comes to Zinaida, his defector. On purpose that time, unlike sticking the Teacups in an apartment with a window and a fire escape...)

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

You just have to wonder if he's lying or if he's just remembering Gaad as the person he needs him to be now. 

I think Stan genuinely believes his own bullshit and has reframed Gaad in his head. Now that Gaad's dead, he's making him more of an idealized noble humanitarian than he ever was in life. I genuinely like Gaad as a character, but he's a really ruthless bastard. That has stood out to me on this rewatch--you're right! He's ready to burn her at the drop of the hat!

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Then Stan's bullying her to find out about Amador because that's his thing--that could have gotten her in trouble if Stan himself hadn't alerted Arkady about it. It's not like Nina could have just dropped something about an FBI agent or the name Chris Amador without outing herself given the real situation. And once Amador's found Gaad seems to just assume Nina's been found out. Stan insists that Amador wouldn't have ratted her out, and he's right in part because nobody ever asked Amador about Nina--Stan's whole idea of what happened to Chris is wrong. And Gaad asks if he's willing to risk Nina's life on Chris's integrity and Stan's all, "And my life too!" 

That entire kidnapping plot is such a chaotic shitshow from all sides. I'm glad Arkady burned his hand on the capitalist microwave and accidentally spared his own life in doing so. 😂

[sistermagpie]

56 minutes ago, Zella said:

I think Stan genuinely believes his own bullshit and has reframed Gaad in his head. Now that Gaad's dead, he's making him more of an idealized noble humanitarian than he ever was in life. I genuinely like Gaad as a character, but he's a really ruthless bastard. That has stood out to me on this rewatch--you're right! He's ready to burn her at the drop of the hat!

Gaad is really one of the great supporting characters even before "They seduced and married my secretary." There's so many little moments between him and Stan that are tiny and complicated. Frankly, Gaad had good reason to hate Stan for all the trouble he caused him, but seemed to sort of admire him for it. (My favorite Gaad line, still, is, "Disappeared? Is she Doug Henning?")

56 minutes ago, Zella said:

That entire kidnapping plot is such a chaotic shitshow from all sides. I'm glad Arkady burned his hand on the capitalist microwave and accidentally spared his own life in doing so. 😂

OMG, it's fantasic. And then leads to more assassinations. I remember a poster here who was just furious at the end that Stan never realized it was Philip who killed Amador as if it was obvious and it's just totally not. Amador isn't found anywhere near Martha's place, nobody ever connects his death to Martha at all--including Martha. Stan is convinced as soon as Amador doesn't return his call that he's been kidnapped by the KGB--which he has been, but not in the way Stan thinks. He's sure he's been kidnapped as part of some special mission to...unclear what. Then he follows the clues directly to Gregory. As far as Stan's concerned Chris's death is a closed case--Gregory did it and Vlad paid for it. As Philip says, it's just all a mistake.

And Arkady burning his hand really should have ended differently. He's not there, so there's the signal to abort. But because Stan's now on board because of Amador it becomes a totally different plan. Arkady's suddenly getting all these weird phone calls and Vlad's dead before they can even start to figure out what's going on--so again Stan might have gotten Nina blown for nothing! She's right when she says they're all cops at heart.

Btw, I'm almost finished S4 in my rewatch and a little wary of S5 going by memory. We lose so many good characters and I remember liking the people in S5 a lot less. I'm hoping it'll be different on rewatch, though.

Edited July 22, 2022 by sistermagpie

[Zella]

36 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Gaad is really one of the great supporting characters even before "They seduced and married my secretary." There's so many little moments between him and Stan that are tiny and complicated. Frankly, Gaad had good reason to hate Stan for all the trouble he caused him, but seemed to sort of admire him for it. (My favorite Gaad line, still, is, "Disappeared? Is she Doug Henning?")

OMG, it's fantasic. And then leads to more assassinations. I remember a poster here who was just furious at the end that Stan never realized it was Philip who killed Amador as if it was obvious and it's just totally not. Amador isn't found anywhere near Martha's place, nobody ever connects his death to Martha at all--including Martha. Stan is convinced as soon as Amador doesn't return his call that he's been kidnapped by the KGB--which he has been, but not in the way Stan thinks. He's sure he's been kidnapped as part of some special mission to...unclear what. Then he follows the clues directly to Gregory. As far as Stan's concerned Chris's death is a closed case--Gregory did it and Vlad paid for it. As Philip says, it's just all a mistake.

And Arkady burning his hand really should have ended differently. He's not there, so there's the signal to abort. But because Stan's now on board because of Amador it becomes a totally different plan. Arkady's suddenly getting all these weird phone calls and Vlad's dead before they can even start to figure out what's going on--so again Stan might have gotten Nina blown for nothing! She's right when she says they're all cops at heart.

Btw, I'm almost finished S4 in my rewatch and a little wary of S5 going by memory. We lose so many good characters and I remember liking the people in S5 a lot less. I'm hoping it'll be different on rewatch, though.

Bahahaha that Doug Henning line is awesome! And I agree 100% on Gaad. Even the line itself is just average, his delivery is always fantastic. 

I also agree it is realistic that Stan never connects Amador to Philip and Elizabeth. I liked that the show didn't feel the need to tie everything up neatly.

I was not the biggest fan of season 5 when I first watched. I am currently about 1/3 of the way through it and have enjoyed it more the second time around. I do think the show is hurt by the cast members it lost in season 4--I always particularly enjoyed watching the way the Rezidentura intersects with the FBI and with Philip and Elizabeth, so I do think losing that perspective is a minus for this season. And also the FBI office scenes are less lively with Gaad and the tension from Martha's presence. 

But it's been really interesting to me to watch Philip and Elizabeth react to the grain stuff. It's the first time they have a mission where they think they're genuinely the good guys, without question, after a long time of doing things like dabbing in bioweapons or whatever and them having that pulled out from under them is both sad and funny.

It's also hilarious to me how judgmental they are about Alexei. I've noticed a lot of people don't like Alexei, but I always felt sorry for him and understood why he did what he did, even if he was inept about it, and interpreted his bark as bigger than his bite. But they are so appalled that he defected without telling his family and here they were ready to do that exact same thing just a month earlier!

In any event, The Americans' season 5 reminds me a lot of Justified's season 5. I didn't particularly like it the first time around because I had a hard time seeing the point, but I can better appreciate what it is doing on rewatch since I know what it is building up to after having finished the show. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Zella

[Zella]

Oh I forgot to add this but season 5 also has my single most favorite Stan moment ever: when he's making instant alfredo sauce and stares intently at the instructions like he's trying to decipher hieroglyphics. 

[sistermagpie]

55 minutes ago, Zella said:

Bahahaha that Doug Henning line is awesome! And I agree 100% on Gaad. Even the line itself is just average, his delivery is always fantastic. 

I also agree it is realistic that Stan never connects Amador to Philip and Elizabeth. I liked that the show didn't feel the need to tie everything up neatly.

I like how Gregory does come back so much in S6, along with so many S1 things, but just not in the most obvious way. Because Stan connects Harvest with Joyce Ramirez, and we see Curtis again, and Elizabeth's smoking and hair are a connection. So if you expect the biggest connection to be with Philip, it's Elizabeth, as it really would be.

55 minutes ago, Zella said:

I was not the biggest fan of season 5 when I first watched. I am currently about 1/3 of the way through it and have enjoyed it more the second time around. I do think the show is hurt by the cast members it lost in season 4--I always particularly enjoyed watching the way the Rezidentura intersects with the FBI and with Philip and Elizabeth, so I do think losing that perspective is a minus for this season. And also the FBI office scenes are less lively with Gaad and the tension from Martha's presence. 

I feel like it will also be better when I'm not wondering what will happen and maybe hoping for things that aren't coming. Like more specific backstory for Philip.  

One of the things that make the show such a great rewatch for me is because it is one story that's moving forward, you can understand more when you rewatch. You don't have to consider ways that it could be going or the way characters might react to things etc. You can just see how they're reacting.

55 minutes ago, Zella said:

It's also hilarious to me how judgmental they are about Alexei. I've noticed a lot of people don't like Alexei, but I always felt sorry for him and understood why he did what he did, even if he was inept about it, and interpreted his bark as bigger than his bite. But they are so appalled that he defected without telling his family and here they were ready to do that exact same thing just a month earlier!

And are basically planning it again by the end of the season! And in the end I feel like Philip gets that message. He's got to be thinking of Pavel when he imagines pulling Henry out of the life he's on the edge of entering to drag him to Moscow. But I remember Elizabeth, when they're seriously considering moving back there in S5, blithely suggesting that Paige will help Henry transition, as if Paige has already halfway become Elizabeth and will do just fine in Moscow. 

I feel honestly like Stan and Elizabeth are often very similar, especially in their ability to delude themselves.

I do get Alexei--and I think part of the reason he's so relentlessly anti-USSR is he has to be given what he's done. And frankly, without Tuan's interference Pavel might have adjusted just fine to the US. They could have hooked up with other Russian immigrant families. His wife was frankly nuts going back there even with Pavel's attempted suicide.

The other thing in that story is Matthew Rhys's fake moustache sometimes just seems to make scenes funny without meaning to. And that was even before I saw all those bloopers with it. "Oh, sorry. I don't know if you've noticed, but I'm wearing a fake moustache and sometimes the hairs go up your nose..."

55 minutes ago, Zella said:

In any event, The Americans' season 5 reminds me a lot of Justified's season 5. I didn't particularly like it the first time around because I had a hard time seeing the point, but I can better appreciate what it is doing on rewatch since I know what it is building up to after having finished the show. 

Exactly what I'm hoping to see with it. On first watch I felt like it took a lot of time getting everyone from almost where they needed to be for S6 to where they needed to be in S6 and maybe some things didn't come off quite the way they wanted them too. Also the timeline did not make sense to me.

45 minutes ago, Zella said:

Oh I forgot to add this but season 5 also has my single most favorite Stan moment ever: when he's making instant alfredo sauce and stares intently at the instructions like he's trying to decipher hieroglyphics. 

LOL. This is the guy who's too impatient to microwave mac & cheese for the full time, after all...

[Paloma]

@Zella and @sistermagpie

Skimming over your most recent posts, I'm realizing how much I forgot about what happened in the later seasons. (For that reason, I'm not reading your entire posts and not reacting to most of them until I've caught up.) I'm just starting the Season 3 rewatch and already cringing about the Kimmy storyline; in fact, I am considering skipping the season so I don't have to be reminded of how creepy the whole thing was, but I'm afraid I will miss something important that I've forgotten. 

A couple of random thoughts, which I'm sure have been expressed before: (1) Most of Elizabeth's disguises are barely disguises--as a beautiful woman her face is still very recognizable, especially when she doesn't wear glasses or a wig that is significantly different from her natural hair. At least Philip sometimes puts on a mustache! (But his face is also often recognizable despite glasses and different hair.) Wouldn't spies need to use prosthetics or other dramatic changes in appearance  to avoid being identified when they work in the same geographic area where they live (with their real appearances) for many years? (2) Nina's prison must not be so bad since her hair continues to look clean and nice and she is apparently still wearing makeup (LOL). Of course, I know we need to suspend disbelief about both of these issues of appearance, but they do take me out of the story periodically, especially on the rewatch when I don't need to focus as hard on the action because I remember a lot of it.  

[Zella]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I feel honestly like Stan and Elizabeth are often very similar, especially in their ability to delude themselves.

I do get Alexei--and I think part of the reason he's so relentlessly anti-USSR is he has to be given what he's done. And frankly, without Tuan's interference Pavel might have adjusted just fine to the US. They could have hooked up with other Russian immigrant families. His wife was frankly nuts going back there even with Pavel's attempted suicide.

You know, I never really thought of Stan and Elizabeth being similar in personality, but I can see it! 

As for Alexei's family, yes, I really do think that could have had a very different ending if their only friends in America weren't all hostile planted spies. I've said this before on here, I think, but the operations that always bother me the most are the ones where the person thinks they've befriended Philip and Elizabeth. It's a very different dynamic than the people who get got because of a one-night stand or because they mistake them for a legitimate employee/colleague. 

I meant to comment on this earlier, but I think Nina's early comment that you pointed out on the FBI thinking like cops is a really astute one. I do think that in general the FBI approaches counterintelligence like cops rather than spies, and the KGB definitely approaches this as spies rather than cops. 

Oh also on a note about season 5 through new eyes, I've noticed that there's a shared theme about Soviet incarceration I'd not put together before. One of Alexei's rants is about his father being sent to Siberia for 15 years, and Oleg and Philip are both KGB officers who are significantly rattled to learn of their families' own history with the country's gulags this season. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Zella

[Zella]

30 minutes ago, Paloma said:

@Zella and @sistermagpie

Skimming over your most recent posts, I'm realizing how much I forgot about what happened in the later seasons. (For that reason, I'm not reading your entire posts and not reacting to most of them until I've caught up.) I'm just starting the Season 3 rewatch and already cringing about the Kimmy storyline; in fact, I am considering skipping the season so I don't have to be reminded of how creepy the whole thing was, but I'm afraid I will miss something important that I've forgotten. 

A couple of random thoughts, which I'm sure have been expressed before: (1) Most of Elizabeth's disguises are barely disguises--as a beautiful woman her face is still very recognizable, especially when she doesn't wear glasses or a wig that is significantly different from her natural hair. At least Philip sometimes puts on a mustache! (But his face is also often recognizable despite glasses and different hair.)

Sorry for any inadvertent re-spoilers! I am trying to time this one so that it won't combine with my previous post, and you can read it in relative safety. :) 

To be honest, I love Keri Russell as Elizabeth, but I actually think she might be too distinctive-looking to be believable as a spy. Beyond the fact that she truly is a very lovely woman, the mole on her upper lip is also something that is present regardless of her disguise, and it seems like something that a lot of people might notice when describing her. But I don't think anybody ever does. 

I do think in general Philip's disguises usually are more disguising, even though I agree the glasses and wig may not be enough IRL. His also tend to be much grungier, whereas hers often try to make her look mousier. My favorite Philip disguise is in season 3 and is what I always privately call his early 80s Keith Richards look. LOLOL I will be more specific when you get to that episode!

Quote

Wouldn't spies need to use prosthetics or other dramatic changes in appearance  to avoid being identified when they work in the same geographic area where they live (with their real appearances) for many years? (

So, incidentally, right now I'm reading Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy, and even though it is fiction, it was written by a bona fide former spy, and in there--which I find quite believable--there's a real distinction between the people who live under deep cover and the ones who are doing the action-packed stuff. The ones who are under deep cover seem to just have the one identity that they try to adhere to, whereas the others who are doing the dirty work are often not truly local to their adventures. They crash in under an assumed name, do whatever, and leave. I suspect the KGB may very well have worked under the same principles, though most of my reading on them has focused on people who were usually under official cover. (The equivalent of an Arkady or an Oleg or a Nina or a Vlad in that they are KGB but they also are officially in the US as a diplomat, so everyone with a brain knows they are spies, but there is the polite fiction that, as the novel calls them, they are "culture vultures" for the embassy and not KGB officers, which only changes when the countries get really mad at each other.)

I can understand why the show would alter that to provide for more action and suspense, but I suspect a more realistic approach would have been Philip and Elizabeth either doing all the action-packed shenanigans in areas outside of where they live to minimize the chance of them being recognized (or just being more mobile in general) or them having a much more mundane existence without all the disguises. 

[Paloma]

8 hours ago, Zella said:

Sorry for any inadvertent re-spoilers! I am trying to time this one so that it won't combine with my previous post, and you can read it in relative safety. :) 

To be honest, I love Keri Russell as Elizabeth, but I actually think she might be too distinctive-looking to be believable as a spy. Beyond the fact that she truly is a very lovely woman, the mole on her upper lip is also something that is present regardless of her disguise, and it seems like something that a lot of people might notice when describing her. But I don't think anybody ever does.

Thank you, and no worries about re-spoilers! 

I really had to laugh when I read your comment about Keri Russell's mole, because believe it or not I have not noticed it on this rewatch! I must be too focused on her gorgeous hair, perfect body, and overall facial beauty! Speaking of perfect body, another thing she could do if she wanted to have a better disguise is sometimes wear padding to make her look heavier, though I guess that could interfere with the physical activities she needs to do. And even with padding she would likely just look average size rather than heavy. I know that witness IDs can be unreliable, but I would think that most witnesses would at least notice a female suspect's general build and would mention if she was slim and pretty (as opposed to average build and looks). And they would probably be able to give an estimated age, so Elizabeth could use a disguise that made her look older (similar to actors).

She could definitely wear a better disguise when recruiting someone she doesn't need to seduce or when she is just trying to get information. For example, it's kind of ridiculous that with Lisa and her husband, aside from a slight difference in hair length and color "Michelle" looks exactly the same as Elizabeth. 

[Zella]

3 hours ago, Paloma said:

Thank you, and no worries about re-spoilers! 

I really had to laugh when I read your comment about Keri Russell's mole, because believe it or not I have not noticed it on this rewatch! I must be too focused on her gorgeous hair, perfect body, and overall facial beauty! Speaking of perfect body, another thing she could do if she wanted to have a better disguise is sometimes wear padding to make her look heavier, though I guess that could interfere with the physical activities she needs to do. And even with padding she would likely just look average size rather than heavy. I know that witness IDs can be unreliable, but I would think that most witnesses would at least notice a female suspect's general build and would mention if she was slim and pretty (as opposed to average build and looks). And they would probably be able to give an estimated age, so Elizabeth could use a disguise that made her look older (similar to actors).

She could definitely wear a better disguise when recruiting someone she doesn't need to seduce or when she is just trying to get information. For example, it's kind of ridiculous that with Lisa and her husband, aside from a slight difference in hair length and color "Michelle" looks exactly the same as Elizabeth. 

It actually took me a while to notice the mole too! But I can't not see it now every time she is in disguise! LOL I agree that some padding or aging may have helped with her disguises. I noticed her main go-to besides the wigs is slapping on a pair of glasses. I've seen Philip have a bandaid on his face or something that looks like a birthmark, I imagine as a distraction, but I don't recall her doing anything like that. 

[Domestic Assassin]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

I've seen Philip have a bandaid on his face or something that looks like a birthmark, I imagine as a distraction, but I don't recall her doing anything like that. 

In season 6 in Chicago she had a bruise on her cheek that had some people questioning if she might have AIDS when it was originally airing. It was only there when she was in Chicago, so I'm convinced it was meant to be part of the disguise. Also in the scene when she's acting as a tourist on a tour of the State Department I remember some behind the scenes info that she was wearing some dental device that kind of distorted her mouth area.  But her disguises were rarely that elaborate.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Domestic Assassin

[Zella]

7 minutes ago, Domestic Assassin said:

In season 6 in Chicago she had a bruise on her cheek that had some people questioning if she might have AIDS when it was originally airing. It was only there when she was in Chicago, so I'm convinced it was meant to be part of the disguise. Also in the scene when she's acting as a tourist on a tour of the State Department I remember some behind the scenes info that she was wearing some dental device that kind of distorted her mouth area.  But her disguises were rarely that elaborate.

Oh thank you! I will have to keep an eye out for them. I don't remember either of those disguises off the top of my head. 

[sistermagpie]

14 hours ago, Paloma said:

@Zella and @sistermagpie

Skimming over your most recent posts, I'm realizing how much I forgot about what happened in the later seasons. (For that reason, I'm not reading your entire posts and not reacting to most of them until I've caught up.) I'm just starting the Season 3 rewatch and already cringing about the Kimmy storyline; in fact, I am considering skipping the season so I don't have to be reminded of how creepy the whole thing was, but I'm afraid I will miss something important that I've forgotten. 

I have to confess, I've come to love Kimmy, little weirdo that she is. It helps that Philip quickly moves them into friends-mode...at least for most of the show. There were some episodes in my rewatch where I realized I just really liked watching them together, that they seem to have a nice connection in a strange way. I always think she sort of connects to the part of Philip that's stunted at the time he entered the program (so a teenager) while he also sees her as being like Paige. 

I know that's pretty common that people who have, for instance, gone through abuse as a child and blame themselves suddenly realize the truth when they have kids of their own and can see how vulnerable they are, for instance.

Kimmy winds up being one of those sources that gets him for real in some ways, while still being a dupe. And she also comes out of it all pretty unscathed. I remember a lot of people thought it was unbelievable that she would keep him a secret from her father but I totally buy it.

14 hours ago, Paloma said:

A couple of random thoughts, which I'm sure have been expressed before: (1) Most of Elizabeth's disguises are barely disguises--as a beautiful woman her face is still very recognizable, especially when she doesn't wear glasses or a wig that is significantly different from her natural hair. At least Philip sometimes puts on a mustache! (But his face is also often recognizable despite glasses and different hair.) Wouldn't spies need to use prosthetics or other dramatic changes in appearance  to avoid being identified when they work in the same geographic area where they live (with their real appearances) for many years? (2) Nina's prison must not be so bad since her hair continues to look clean and nice and she is apparently still wearing makeup (LOL). Of course, I know we need to suspend disbelief about both of these issues of appearance, but they do take me out of the story periodically, especially on the rewatch when I don't need to focus as hard on the action because I remember a lot of it.  

Agreed. I always think that with Elizabeth. With Philip there are times when I buy the disguise, but Elizabeth always looks way to much like herself--but then, that's also a character thing, that she always *is* herself more than Philip is, even when she's playing a role. Even without the mole she's clearly beautiful, while Philip, I think can adjust that aspect. I remember one scene where he actually does look padded too. I swear he looks taller in his "Ted" disguise too. It seems like the shape of his eyes would be the biggest problem for him, but he wears glasses a lot.

Btw, there's a cool series called "technique critique" on YouTube where people in professions look at movies/tv and say what things they get right/wrong. I think it started with the guy who is a dialect coach who critiques actors doing accents. There's one where a former CIA disguise lady looks at spy disguises that is pretty interesting.

Though also it seems important that in most cases it's not like they're hiding from people they know. They are dealing with strangers in different places. So hair etc. is going to make a difference. Philip does have a big wine stain birthmark at one point and Elizabeth has a scar once. They also use false teeth, which changes the shape of the face. You can see her wearing contacts with Alexei's family, iirc, and that makes her eyes look really different (without looking alien, like when Philip plays Scott). Oh, and I remember her outfit when she's breaking into the congressman's office with Lucia she seems to be wearing makeup to look older--Philip wears some of that for Clark as well.

That also makes me think of my whole theory about how Elizabeth's main romantic fantasy is about growing old with someone. Philip occasionally dresses older by himself (to visit Gene's grave, his final disguise) but Elizabeth only has grey hair one time, matching Philip. I remember people felt like they were seeing the retired couple they would never be in that scene.

13 hours ago, Zella said:

Oh also on a note about season 5 through new eyes, I've noticed that there's a shared theme about Soviet incarceration I'd not put together before. One of Alexei's rants is about his father being sent to Siberia for 15 years, and Oleg and Philip are both KGB officers who are significantly rattled to learn of their families' own history with the country's gulags this season. 

Yes! Elizabeth and Claudia are so closely associated with WWII, where the USSR can be the plucky victim standing up against invaders, but the male characters tend to have to deal with that darker side more. Internal vs. external problems. And of course, Philip is the one who's less defensive about Alexei's critiques.

13 hours ago, Zella said:

I do think in general Philip's disguises usually are more disguising, even though I agree the glasses and wig may not be enough IRL. His also tend to be much grungier, whereas hers often try to make her look mousier. My favorite Philip disguise is in season 3 and is what I always privately call his early 80s Keith Richards look. LOLOL I will be more specific when you get to that episode!

I'm hearing "The Chain" in my head now...

Elizabeth looks great in that disguise too, I have to say!

13 hours ago, Zella said:

I can understand why the show would alter that to provide for more action and suspense, but I suspect a more realistic approach would have been Philip and Elizabeth either doing all the action-packed shenanigans in areas outside of where they live to minimize the chance of them being recognized (or just being more mobile in general) or them having a much more mundane existence without all the disguises. 

Yeah, this is one thing I have no trouble suspending disbelief for. 

6 minutes ago, Domestic Assassin said:

In season 6 in Chicago she had a bruise on her cheek that had some people questioning if she might have AIDS when it was originally airing. It was only there when she was in Chicago, so I'm convinced it was meant to be part of the disguise. Also in the scene when she's acting as a tourist on a tour of the State Department, she looks like she's wearing some padding, and I remember some behind the scenes info that she was wearing some dental device that kind of distorted her mouth area.  But her disguises were rarely that elaborate.

I remember that whole discussion now. And yes, I think it was definitely part of her disguise, but it fit with how rundown she was looking in general.

Here's the technique critique video, btw:

[Zella]

9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I'm hearing "The Chain" in my head now...

😂😂😂😂 Bingo! As soon as he popped up for the first time in that scene, I was like "Did he ask the Center for the Keith this time." LMAO 

I also like Kimmy. I was really apprehensive of where that was going to go when it first popped up. But I ended up feeling really bad for her, and I think Philip's eventual read on her--that more than anything, she really wanted and needed a dad more than a boyfriend--was very astute. I also can totally believe she kept that quiet from her dad.

I also liked the juxtaposition of that storyline with the ongoing one of them grappling with the news the Center wants to recruit Paige, who's the same age. I think it really shines a light on how fucked up it is for the Center to single Paige out for recruitment at this point in time, and it is also really telling how Philip immediately thinks of how he wants to protect his daughter from the terrible things they must do and Elizabeth is instead attracted to how glorious it would be for her daughter to serve the cause like her. In the same way, Philip is also much more protective of Kimmy than Elizabeth is. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Zella

[Anela]

On 7/15/2022 at 5:54 PM, Domestic Assassin said:

Just a warning in case you haven't heard, The Americans will not be available on Prime after July 29th. It's moving to Hulu.

I've just started a re-watch, and was wondering how I was going to squeeze it all in. Thank you! I have hulu, so I don't need to rush it. 

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, Zella said:

😂😂😂😂 Bingo! As soon as he popped up for the first time in that scene, I was like "Did he ask the Center for the Keith this time." LMAO 

LOL! It's a great pair with Elizabeth's John Denver disguise

3 minutes ago, Zella said:

I also like Kimmy. I was really apprehensive of where that was going to go when it first popped up. But I ended up feeling really bad for her, and I think Philip's eventual read on her--that more than anything, she really wanted and needed a dad more than a boyfriend--was very astute. I also can totally believe she kept that quiet from her dad.

I also liked the juxtaposition of that storyline with the ongoing one of them grappling with the news the Center wants to recruit Paige, who's the same age. I think it really shines a light on how fucked up it is for the Center to single Paige out for recruitment at this point in time, and it is also really telling how Philip immediately thinks of how he wants to protect his daughter from the terrible things they must do and Elizabeth is instead attracted to how glorious it would be for her daughter to serve the cause like her. In the same way, Philip is also much more protective of Kimmy than Elizabeth is. 

Yes, I also love the scene where Kimmy tells him that her dad's CIA and Philip tells her she shouldn't have told him, that the secret could bring her closer to him, but only if she keeps it. Later he mentions how her relationship with her dad eventually gets better, so he's probably able to use his own bad situation to help her with her better one. (Dad in the CIA is very different from a dad like him!)

This is another area where I think also, people are tempted to make P&E opposites where they're actually different. Elizabeth seems to think it's her job as a parent to mold her kids into who they should be--with Paige she has a chance to do that by recruiting her, with Henry she just gives up. But I think another thing that really attracts her to recruiting Paige is it's a way to hold on to her, and she also really longs for Paige to understand, love and respect her in ways she doesn't think Henry could anyway. 

While Philip's parental philosophy is much more about protecting the kids to give them the space to be who they're going to be, even if he doesn't like it. He even has that speech I think in early S3 where he's upset about the Centre trying to recruit her and he says something like, "We're so close. Just a few more years and she's out." Like he always knows the point is to send her away.

This is also why I really stick to the theory that came to me on this rewatch in S3, in I Am Abassin Zadran (I think), where the Rezidentura story and the Claudia/Gabriel scene convinced me that there basically *is* no second gen program at all by the time Paige gets recruited. It only ever really exists for Jared. It's all Elizabeth and Paige's issues, even if Claudia's of course glad to help and so influence Elizabeth.

[Zella]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Elizabeth seems to think it's her job as a parent to mold her kids into who they should be--with Paige she has a chance to do that by recruiting her, with Henry she just gives up. But I think another thing that really attracts her to recruiting Paige is it's a way to hold on to her, and she also really longs for Paige to understand, love and respect her in ways she doesn't think Henry could anyway. 

I agree! I think she also has a complex about not being the fun parent and sees herself as both kids' least favorite parent. In season 1, she's convinced she should be the one to sacrifice herself because the kids clearly love Philip more (in her eyes), and he's like, "Um, no, you're their mom--they love and need you." So, yes, I think she sees it as a way to bond with Paige, when before she was put off by a lot about Paige. Not that I don't think she loved her daughter. But in the early seasons, she criticizes Paige's excess of leg warmers, confides to Philip that she fears Paige is delicate, and is absolutely baffled by Paige's embrace of religion. I think she thought Paige was very Americanized and hard to understand, and this is a way they can bond in a way that is comfortable to Elizabeth. 

In the same vein, I think Paige's primary attraction to the work is that it gives her a more positive relationship with her mother. She seems to really crave her parents' affection and affirmation, and when she doesn't get it, she seeks it out from other adults. 

[Anela]

I've just watched the third episode, where they find out that Robert had a wife and child (the guy who was killed in the first episode). I have forgotten a lot. I knew that Joyce would have to be killed, but it was still really sad. Her baby was the only thing that mattered to her, and they murdered his mother.

[Zella]

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

LOL! It's a great pair with Elizabeth's John Denver disguise

A little bit country, a little bit rock n roll. :D  I hadn't quite clocked it but she does totally look like John Denver there. LOLOLOL 

1 minute ago, Anela said:

I've just watched the third episode, where they find out that Robert had a wife and child (the guy who was killed in the first episode). I have forgotten a lot. I knew that Joyce would have to be killed, but it was still really sad. Her baby was the only thing that mattered to her, and they murdered his mother.

Between that and the clock episode where they poison the maid's son to get into Weinberger's library, I remember watching this show for the first time and thinking, "Wow, this show isn't fucking around." I expected them to try to to soften the storylines to be more palatable to viewers but nope. 

[Domestic Assassin]

I think the John Denver wig got the most use. I can think of two times they each wore it.

I love playing spot the wig in re-watches. I think this wig is my favorite.

[Zella]

11 minutes ago, Domestic Assassin said:

I think the John Denver wig got the most use. I can think of two times they each wore it.

I love playing spot the wig in re-watches. I think this wig is my favorite.

I can't remember the exact scenes, but I swear I've seen Philip wear one of Arkady's ties too. LOLOL 

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

I agree! I think she also has a complex about not being the fun parent and sees herself as both kids' least favorite parent. In season 1, she's convinced she should be the one to sacrifice herself because the kids clearly love Philip more (in her eyes), and he's like, "Um, no, you're their mom--they love and need you." So, yes, I think she sees it as a way to bond with Paige, when before she was put off by a lot about Paige. Not that I don't think she loved her daughter. But in the early seasons, she criticizes Paige's excess of leg warmers, confides to Philip that she fears Paige is delicate, and is absolutely baffled by Paige's embrace of religion. I think she thought Paige was very Americanized and hard to understand, and this is a way they can bond in a way that is comfortable to Elizabeth. 

In the same vein, I think Paige's primary attraction to the work is that it gives her a more positive relationship with her mother. She seems to really crave her parents' affection and affirmation, and when she doesn't get it, she seeks it out from other adults. 

Yes, and sometimes I feel like Paige (and maybe this is a trait she shares with Elizabeth) almost values Elizabeth's affection and affirmation more because it seems withheld. She might in some ways have similar issues in appreciating Philip at first like Elizabeth did. I mean, she loves him, clearly, that's not a problem. But I think at times she craves easier answers than he gives--and maybe wants him to just take her side over Elizabeth in decisive ways that he doesn't. But it's more because she doesn't yet always get what he means.

For instance, in Born Again both Philip and Elizabeth for the first time start trying to guide her the way they want her to go wrt being a spy. Elizabeth starts telling her stories about Gregory and the civil rights movement. That sounds intriguing and real and Elizabeth is specifically saying she approves of her activism and that they are finally alike in some mysterious way.

But when Philip tells her he admires her for sticking with the church despite their objections and says she should always listen to her own instincts about who she is and not let other people tell her even if they want what's best for her and she's important to them she dismisses it as him not liking the church or warning her off drugs. She just has no way of understanding what he's saying yet.

In the last season she comes across often as if she has no respect for him, maybe picking up on Elizabeth's contempt for anyone not in the business etc. But I've come to think it's a bit more complicated, that the reason Paige seems more dismissive of Philip as the season goes on isn't because she thinks she's better than him, but because she's beginning to see just how right he is about how working with Elizabeth is a mistake, but she's not willing to admit that yet, so she doubles down on it. It's a comfort to tell herself Dad's ordinary because that means the truths he's obviously giving her can be wrong.

Another thing that can be funny about Elizabeth is that she tends to say things so confidently that you go along with her interpretations even when she's often wrong, especially about Paige. Like Philip can be wrong too, but he tends to have a better instinct for what the kids are feeling, especially when it's negative or getting at a secret they haven't shared. (There's a scene in Baggage that I only recently changed my whole interpretation of what Paige was talking about.)

[Zella]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

Like Philip can be wrong too, but he tends to have a better instinct for what the kids are feeling, especially when it's negative or getting at a secret they haven't shared. (There's a scene in Baggage that I only recently changed my whole interpretation of what Paige was talking about.)

Philip reads people in general better. There are only a couple of times he doesn't compared to her. One is in him insisting that Anneliese could handle Yusef, and Elizabeth was like "Um, no." The other is when he tells Elizabeth that Martha will find out at work the next day that Gene died, and she's like "Are you seriously not going to tell her that yourself?" I think he even admits to Elizabeth later that she was right and he was wrong on how to handle that and he was glad he listened to her. 

That's a really interesting point about Paige's attitude in season 6. That makes a lot of sense, and I am going to watch for that when I get there!

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

Philip reads people in general better. There are only a couple of times he doesn't compared to her. One is in him insisting that Anneliese could handle Yusef, and Elizabeth was like "Um, no." The other is when he tells Elizabeth that Martha will find out at work the next day that Gene died, and she's like "Are you seriously not going to tell her that yourself?" I think he even admits to Elizabeth later that she was right and he was wrong on how to handle that and he was glad he listened to her. 

As soon as I read the Annelise part I thought of that time with Martha. No coincidence that both those things are so similar.

1 hour ago, Zella said:

That's a really interesting point about Paige's attitude in season 6. That makes a lot of sense, and I am going to watch for that when I get there!

Me too. LOL. It's something that comes to me when I think about S6 but I haven't re-watched it since it first aired. I feel like it's one of those things that's in the writing, but not the performance, much. But I especially think about even scenes like the fight between Philip and Paige where it seems like she's being arrogant and ignorant saying things like, "Do you want me to pretend to hit you?" or "We don't even have any pads." But it could be much tenser if she was *afraid* of what Philip was doing here. Like she much preferred him staying suburban dad whose spy-side she never saw and told herself didn't really exist. But now here he is in her apartment being inappropriate. So her attempt to treat it like another "You're ridiculous, daddy" moment is a little desperate.

There was some frustration (including from me) that we didn't get really any Philip/Paige scenes after that, but it probably informs her understanding of Philip going to Chicago with Elizabeth and Marilyn getting killed.

Edited July 22, 2022 by sistermagpie

[Paloma]

On 7/22/2022 at 2:25 PM, sistermagpie said:

But when Philip tells her he admires her for sticking with the church despite their objections and says she should always listen to her own instincts about who she is and not let other people tell her even if they want what's best for her and she's important to them she dismisses it as him not liking the church or warning her off drugs. She just has no way of understanding what he's saying yet.

I (re)watched this scene a day or two ago and it made a much bigger impact on me than it did the first time. Philip was so clearly trying to prepare Paige for Elizabeth recruiting her and to strengthen Paige's ability to decide for herself, rather than to do what her mother--someone who loves her and supposedly wants what's best for her daughter--wants her to do. I could feel Philip's frustration at Paige not really listening to him and at himself for not being able to say things more directly. 

The Paige recruitment question as well as the Kimmie problem also made me see Gabriel in a different way than I did originally. When I first watched the show, Gabriel was such a warm and reassuring presence, almost a father figure, to both Elizabeth and Philip, and he came across to me as a decent and reasonable person who, despite his job, was not ruthless like Claudia. But now I see him as someone who, while he can sympathize with the difficulties of his agents in carrying out some orders, is just as serious as Claudia was about getting them to do what is necessary. I don't remember the exact line, but in an early season 3 episode (I'm about 3 or 4 episodes into that season) he says that Philip has a conscience but that has to be put aside to do the job. I think at that time he was referring to Philip's reluctance to use Kimmie, including having sex with her, but it obviously was meant to apply to the entire job. And Gabriel also made it clear, though in a nicer way than Claudia did, that Philip had to go along with Paige's recruitment. 

Speaking of Claudia, I wonder why her character seemed to soften in season 2, expressing almost maternal concern and affection for her agents despite their continuing anger toward her. Elizabeth even seemed to thaw a bit in the goodbye scene at the end of the season. I know Claudia comes back into their lives in later seasons but don't remember now what their relationship was like when she came back.

I guess the reason that many viewers can relate more to Philip than to Elizabeth is because he does clearly have a conscience and often shows hesitation or regret about doing the terrible things he is required to do (and more generally, has expressed a desire to get out of the spy business). Elizabeth may have a conscience, but it takes an awful lot for her to show it--she feels that the cause easily justifies almost anything. I wonder if part of that feeling comes from knowing her father was a deserter from the Army and the effect that had on her and her mother. 

Still, I will never be able to sympathize with a mother who willingly puts her child in what she knows to be dangerous situations, including the possibility that she will be expected to use sex to get information. Maybe Elizabeth is deluding herself that Paige can be a "safe" spy in an office job, but she should know better--Philip certainly does.

[Zella]

I must say, I never liked Gabriel. There was something about him that felt really manipulative to me. I like him a little more on this go around because I feel like his fatherly concern is a little less of an act than I did before, but it still feels studied to me. Like he knows it works on agents, so he does it. 

As for Claudia, she expresses concern for Philip and Elizabeth even back at the end of season 1. I remember one of my big epiphanies for her was realizing she always defended the Center's orders to their face but then had been complaining to Arkady about the orders and expressing strong reservations about them. He even seems a little mystified why she cares so much since they've gone behind her back to get her transferred. I think she is like Elizabeth and can always seem like a cold fish, even when she cares. It also could be a pragmatic concern--if her agents aren't okay, they can't serve the cause.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Zella

[sistermagpie]

18 minutes ago, Paloma said:

I (re)watched this scene a day or two ago and it made a much bigger impact on me than it did the first time. Philip was so clearly trying to prepare Paige for Elizabeth recruiting her and to strengthen Paige's ability to decide for herself, rather than to do what her mother--someone who loves her and supposedly wants what's best for her daughter--wants her to do. I could feel Philip's frustration at Paige not really listening to him and at himself for not being able to say things more directly. 

IKR? It's amazing on rewatch how clear it is, how he's really being very direct, she just doesn't get it. And that episode is bookended with him telling her that at the start and Elizabeth starting her recruitment in earnest at the end. 

18 minutes ago, Paloma said:

Speaking of Claudia, I wonder why her character seemed to soften in season 2, expressing almost maternal concern and affection for her agents despite their continuing anger toward her. Elizabeth even seemed to thaw a bit in the goodbye scene at the end of the season. I know Claudia comes back into their lives in later seasons but don't remember now what their relationship was like when she came back.

I always felt like Claudia liked Elizabeth but in a toxic way. A bit like Elizabeth with Paige. She shows up in S1 having decided that Elizabeth is just like her, and clearly disliked Philip already. She tells her flat out she doesn't trust him to be loyal to the cause, so that season Elizabeth's got both her and Gregory warning her that Philip is bad for her, and both seem like almost a love triangle. But where they aggressively try to argue Elizabeth into choosing them, Philip passively steps back and tells her to do what she wants.

So as strange as it is, of all the things Elizabeth does on the show, one of the worst is making a cozy relationship between Claudia and Paige. Not because Claudia would sacrifice Paige if she had to, but because she should know that Claudia thinks Elizabeth's family isn't important, especially now that Philip isn't working. So I always thought it was nice revenge that Philip's the one who tells Elizabeth how Claudia's using her (again). 

But in the same way, Claudia's actions feel human, just like Elizabeth's do. She has a family back in Russia she can't relate to at all, and she sees Elizabeth as a spiritual daughter she wants to hold on to and wants to understand her. Claudia would protect Philip as an agent--but I always wondered if her softening toward their relationship was so much Claudia seeing that Philip really did love her so much as Claudia recognizing that trying to break up the relationship was only going to hurt her position. Maybe some of both.

18 minutes ago, Paloma said:

I guess the reason that many viewers can relate more to Philip than to Elizabeth is because he does clearly have a conscience and often shows hesitation or regret about doing the terrible things he is required to do (and more generally, has expressed a desire to get out of the spy business). Elizabeth may have a conscience, but it takes an awful lot for her to show it--she feels that the cause easily justifies almost anything. I wonder if part of that feeling comes from knowing her father was a deserter from the Army and the effect that had on her and her mother. 

I always wonder about that because it's so surprising that she remembers being *told* that her father was a traitor instead of having lived under that shadow her whole life. Still, it's bad enough that she sticks to the lie.

18 minutes ago, Paloma said:

Still, I will never be able to sympathize with a mother who willingly puts her child in what she knows to be dangerous situations, including the possibility that she will be expected to use sex to get information. Maybe Elizabeth is deluding herself that Paige can be a "safe" spy in an office job, but she should know better--Philip certainly does.

The depth of Elizabeth's delusion on everything with Paige is just so amazing, and it seems to just get deeper and deeper as she goes on. Which makes sense, because someone who intentionally tries to repress emotions could very easily just not recognize when she's acting on them. Literally nobody ever even tells her that Paige is going to be protected. She just decides that in her head. Even Claudia doesn't reassure her about it in S6. And by that time she's ignoring so much more!

1 minute ago, Zella said:

I must say, I never liked Gabriel. There was something about him that felt really manipulative to me. I like him a little more on this go around because I feel like his fatherly concern is a little less of an act than I did before, but it still feels studied to me. Like he knows it works on agents, so he does it. 

I remember we used to refer to him as "Old Dracula"--from him playing Dracula, sure, but it really fit too. He does just have so many times that are clearly studied--like when he tells Philip about Mischa, claiming he didn't want to have to tell him this way. You know, in the way that's most useful for Gabriel himself. He works Elizabeth just as well--more subtly than Claudia does. He knows you get to her by saying her mother would be proud of her, and with Philip you say people need him.

1 minute ago, Zella said:

As for Claudia, she expresses concern for Philip and Elizabeth even back at the end of season 1. I remember one of my big epiphanies for her was realizing she always defended the Center's orders to their face but then had been complaining to Arkady about the orders and expressing strong reservations about them. He even seems a little mystified why she cares so much since they've gone behind her back to get her transferred. I think she is like Elizabeth and can always seem like a cold fish, even when she cares. 

I love that reveal in S1, because on first run, of course, plenty of people really did believe Elizabeth's interpretation that she was out to get them. Her personal feelings about the two of them are very different, but they don't interfere with her job in that way. The do in other ways, though--she really does start manipulating Elizabeth early on to be the person Claudia seems to think she should be, and later to do her dirty work after Zhukov is killed. And she never really regrets any of that, since she does it again in S6, still acting like she's doing nothing wrong. 

Gabriel at least did feel genuinely terrible about turning Mischa away without Philip meeting him. I don't think Claudia would feel similarly bad about something happening to Paige at all.

[Zella]

So, I went away and made dinner, and in the process, I had a revelation I hadn't had before about Gabriel and his studied caring. The alternative to that (beyond Claudia's more overt coldness) is Stan's emotionally unhinged attachment. Never mind the irony of Stan becoming more emotionally invested in the "enemy" and Gabriel working with people on his own side, but I can see how long years of experience would teach him to keep them at some level of emotional distance, for his own sake and theirs, while also maintaining the semblance of a caring relationship since, as the show often acknowledges, the agents are seeking that from their handlers. They have to believe that you care about them and are invested in them. Otherwise, what's the incentive to do these things that could get you killed or sent off to prison for eternity? But for your own emotional wellbeing and professionalism, you can't get too attached. 

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

and clearly disliked Philip already.

I wonder if, before ever meeting him, Claudia was already judging Philip from his file. I'd not noticed this before when I watched the first time, but I think the specter of Philip's file really lurks over him throughout his entire career. We know Elizabeth had been reporting on him to Zhukov for years before season 1. There's no way that doesn't go in his file. And in one of the recent episodes I've watched, Gabriel frets about how "[Philip] already has entries in his file that don't look good." And the deciding factor for Arkady in season 6 on why he has Oleg approach Philip specifically is because he's spent a lot of time with Philip's file and has concluded he is different based on it. I bet Philip's file makes for some fascinating reading. 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Zella

[sistermagpie]

49 minutes ago, Zella said:

So, I went away and made dinner, and in the process, I had a revelation I hadn't had before about Gabriel and his studied caring.

It's funny this made me think about EST--I was listening to a Podcast about David Cronenberg's The Brood and at one point one of the hosts said, "Okay, we have to talk about EST" and the other guy said, "The only thing I know about EST is what I have seen on The Americans."

Same here. But it made me think how when Elizabeth is putting EST down, she points out how they're making money out of people there, they just want to get into their wallets, and so, she implies, they're not really helping you. But Philip, presumably, thinks it can be both. 

And that mirrors Elizabeth's feelings about their handlers. When Gabriel leaves Philip says he's glad he's going since he's decided hee's only there to manipulate them and give them orders and here it's Elizabeth who, of course, thinks it can be both. He can care about them while also getting them to do what they need to do. 

49 minutes ago, Zella said:

The alternative to that (beyond Claudia's more overt coldness) is Stan's emotionally unhinged attachment. Never mind the irony of Stan becoming more emotionally invested in the "enemy" and Gabriel working with people on his own side, but I can see how long years of experience would teach him to keep them at some level of emotional distance, for his own sake and theirs, while also maintaining the semblance of a caring relationship since, as the show often acknowledges, the agents are seeking that from their handlers. They have to believe that you care about them and are invested in them. Otherwise, what's the incentive to do these things that could get you killed or sent off to prison for eternity? But for your own emotional wellbeing and professionalism, you can't get too attached. 

Yes, and Gabriel also has a history of having to betray friends to save himself, which has to have an effect. But it's scary to think of people like that working with those who don't understand at all that this is professional--like I really think of Paige when I watch that scene where Claudia talks about the agent in West Germany who needed a friend, so she became his friend, and then left and he killed himself. 

In fact, it's been occurring to me lately how having friends so often comes up on the show. The honeypotting gets a lot of attention but friendship is often even more of a draw, and not just re: Stan and Philip. The most vulnerable thing you can be in this show is a person without any friends. (Even that loaded phrase comes up a number of times.)

49 minutes ago, Zella said:

I wonder if, before ever meeting him, Claudia was already judging Philip from his file. I'd not noticed this before when I watched the first time, but I think the specter of Philip's file really lurks over him throughout his entire career. We know Elizabeth had been reporting on him to Zhukov for years before season 1. There's no way that doesn't go in his file. And in one of the recent episodes I've watched, Gabriel frets about how "[Philip] already has entries in his file that don't look good." And the deciding factor for Arkady in season 6 on why he has Oleg approach Philip specifically is because he's spent a lot of time with Philip's file and has concluded he is different based on it. I bet Philip's file makes for some fascinating reading. 

I absolutely think it's his file. She must have read Elizabeth's reports about him--Zhukov took them seriously enough that he brings them up in the pilot. And yet at the same time, they don't get him sent home, which is a question in itself. One of the things about these agents seems to be that they are tested for loyalty--and the only person we see who isn't loyal is Timoshev, who isn't Directorate S. None of the actually Directorate S agents we know ever defect. Zhukov says Elizabeth was primarily chosen for her fear of ever giving herself up. I think people would also know from her file that she might be overzealous in her judgment too.

But there would be other stuff in there too, obviously, that Arkady would be using to make his decisions. Some of it would be stuff we saw on the show, like his not sleeping with Kimmy, his getting Elizabeth to take Paige to Germany, his feelings about Paige. But there must be tons of stuff from before what we saw too--including his father. Philip learns that he was a guard at the camp in Tobolsk, but that's not a lot of information. We don't know how he died either. Gabriel refers to Philip as coming from a "loyal family" but who knows who all they were? 

Philip even makes the, imo, odd comment about thinking they "came for him" because his father was a guard, when their two jobs are completely different. I can get some idea of why Philip's thinking that way, but in the end his journey from Tobolsk to Directorate S is more mysterious than Elizabeth's, beyond his being the smartest kid in the school and his dad being at some point willing to be a guard. 

[Zella]

23 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

a guard, when their two jobs are completely different. I can get some idea of why Philip's thinking that way, but in the end his journey from Tobolsk to Directorate S is more mysterious than Elizabeth's, beyond his being the smartest kid in the school and his dad being at some point willing to be a guard. 

My assumption is his father was probably more than a guard. From what I've read, it was very common to recruit from KGB families. It was also, incidentally, very common to recruit from orphanages. I've also read that the 1950s and 1960s were kind of considered the heydey of the KGB in that they were finally free from the worst of Stalin's excesses, and the nepotism that really plagued them in the 1970s and 1980s hadn't really set in. It was considered the best time to rise via merit if you didn't have connections, and a lot of the KGB officers I've read about were often recruited in college. 

Incidentally, I find it a bit unbelievable that Elizabeth and Philip went directly into KGB illegal training at the age of 17/18 in the early 1960s. I think it would be more likely that they would have been spotted at a university and recruited from there upon finishing their degree, which is how Oleg describes his recruitment. 

29 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It's funny this made me think about EST--I was listening to a Podcast about David Cronenberg's The Brood and at one point one of the hosts said, "Okay, we have to talk about EST" and the other guy said, "The only thing I know about EST is what I have seen on The Americans."

LOL It actually dawned on me the other day that maybe Paige would have benefited more from attending EST with Philip than getting into the family business. 

[sistermagpie]

50 minutes ago, Zella said:

My assumption is his father was probably more than a guard. From what I've read, it was very common to recruit from KGB families. It was also, incidentally, very common to recruit from orphanages. I've also read that the 1950s and 1960s were kind of considered the heydey of the KGB in that they were finally free from the worst of Stalin's excesses, and the nepotism that really plagued them in the 1970s and 1980s hadn't really set in. It was considered the best time to rise via merit if you didn't have connections, and a lot of the KGB officers I've read about were often recruited in college. 

I remember on first run, up until S4, we totally all assume that Philip grew up in an orphange. The milk story made that a little hinky (because he had to buy milk himself), but he really felt like an orphan until he wasn't.

Of course, we don't know what Philip's brother did, but he doesn't come across like he's another KGB agent. He's in Moscow, it seems, but that should probably be a perk of having Philip for a brother. I think Philip is mostly meant to have come to the attention of the KGB through merit. Even if, as Gabriel says, it helps that they would be considered a loyal family, that program is way too hard for him to have come out on top on anything but merit. It seems like both he and Elizabeth are supposed to be kids plucked out of ordinary lives because they showed promise.

50 minutes ago, Zella said:

Incidentally, I find it a bit unbelievable that Elizabeth and Philip went directly into KGB illegal training at the age of 17/18 in the early 1960s. I think it would be more likely that they would have been spotted at a university and recruited from there upon finishing their degree, which is how Oleg describes his recruitment. 

I generally assume this is one of the ways this universe is fictional because yeah, it's my understanding they would be spotted in college, and usually because they were good at languages above all. But according to the timeline they were both already deep into undercover and even sex training when they were still high school age. (I know a linguist who wrote a whole fic to answer her own question of how Elizabeth managed to become Directorate S with such a thick accent in the pilot flashbacks--LOL/)

50 minutes ago, Zella said:

LOL It actually dawned on me the other day that maybe Paige would have benefited more from attending EST with Philip than getting into the family business. 

OMG, yes. I've started Persona Non Grata and there's the scene where Paige is telling Elizabeth that Alice has the baby. It's clearly another scene where Paige is sort of offering herself as a willing pupil or helper to her mom. When Elizabeth tells her Philip's at EST she's already clearly signalling that Paige should see it as dumb. Elizabeth is in her "groovy teacher like Pastor Tim" mode in the scene.

But yeah, because now that I'm re-watching it seems so clear how she's meant to be brought along step by step to joining Elizabeth, and it clearly has nothing to do with her ever caring a bit about the cause or country of the USSR--just as the spiritual side of Pastor Tim's church was never a good fit. I think the writers even said flat out that Philip's at EST because he'd never go to therapy and they needed him in therapy--and that's exactly where Paige needed to be. Pastor Tim, frankly, obviously should be playing that role a bit but he completely fails her there, imo. 

[Paloma]

Just finished the episode with the horrific tire-burning death. One thing I didn't understand about the capture and interrogation of the South African pro-apartheid guy is why Philip offered him a million dollars and settlement in a new country (which the guy turned down, despite knowing they would kill him). Was this offer meant to get the guy to give up information on other pro-apartheid people? Even if he did, how would that help the KGB--almost the entire white population of SA was pro-apartheid, so it's not like the KGB could kill all of them.

[Zella]

37 minutes ago, Paloma said:

Just finished the episode with the horrific tire-burning death. One thing I didn't understand about the capture and interrogation of the South African pro-apartheid guy is why Philip offered him a million dollars and settlement in a new country (which the guy turned down, despite knowing they would kill him). Was this offer meant to get the guy to give up information on other pro-apartheid people? Even if he did, how would that help the KGB--almost the entire white population of SA was pro-apartheid, so it's not like the KGB could kill all of them.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the kidnapping was always with the intention of killing him. I think they were open to seeing if they could turn him but also very okay with killing him, depending on how he responded to the interrogation. He was an intelligence officer in his own right, so he would have had information to trade that went beyond the anti-apartheid movement. 

So to me, Philip offering it was not as if he was saying that he himself could authorize that. I think he was trying to feel him out to see if he wanted to play ball. If he wanted to start talking, I think Philip was prepared to go to the Center and see if they wanted to make that deal. But it's just my interpretation. 

[Zella]

I just finished up season 5 and noticed that in universe only dear Henry has recognized the majesty and grandeur of the gentle mail robot. Everyone else who encounters it hates its guts. 😂

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Paloma said:

Just finished the episode with the horrific tire-burning death. One thing I didn't understand about the capture and interrogation of the South African pro-apartheid guy is why Philip offered him a million dollars and settlement in a new country (which the guy turned down, despite knowing they would kill him). Was this offer meant to get the guy to give up information on other pro-apartheid people? Even if he did, how would that help the KGB--almost the entire white population of SA was pro-apartheid, so it's not like the KGB could kill all of them.

1 hour ago, Zella said:

I could be wrong, but I don't think the kidnapping was always with the intention of killing him. I think they were open to seeing if they could turn him but also very okay with killing him, depending on how he responded to the interrogation. He was an intelligence officer in his own right, so he would have had information to trade that went beyond the anti-apartheid movement. 

So to me, Philip offering it was not as if he was saying that he himself could authorize that. I think he was trying to feel him out to see if he wanted to play ball. If he wanted to start talking, I think Philip was prepared to go to the Center and see if they wanted to make that deal. But it's just my interpretation. 

I think that's generally the way I was thinking. That if the guy was willing to take a deal he'd give them some things they could use--and they'd get him out of the field himself.

1 hour ago, Zella said:

I just finished up season 5 and noticed that in universe only dear Henry has recognized the majesty and grandeur of the gentle mail robot. Everyone else who encounters it hates its guts. 😂

It bodes well for his parents since the mail robot is a reformed spy by that point...

[Andy73]

Hi, I’m new here.

Thank you Sistermagpie to tell me about this com.

I’m delighted to share my feelings about this show. IMHO the best show on TV.

I’m Italian and my English is not so good as I would so I’m sorry in advance!

First of all I tell you that I love the show especially for Philip and Elizabeth. They are well written characters, complex and complete. Really three-dimensional... And I love their relationship, their journey.

I loved how the show is so mindful of detail.  All the characters are what they are because the choices they made or what they faced. As in real life nothing would be the same for them if they had made different choices.

I just started rewatched the show. 

I like discovering new things or that I had forgotten. And I love how the show stayed true to itself until the final credits rolled, and in doing so, proved how great it really is.

Yesterday I was on S01x09-10-11

Here I’m starting with S01x09

I like P&E continues to work so well together despite the breakup. Elizabeth never blames Philip for what happened. She could have done it, but she didn’t. She understood him and she helps him. Now we know how they will be, but I also bought it the first time. They are excellent partners at work, they have two kids and they don’t  want to give up everything. Even then I suspected  she still loved him and that she drove him away so as not to suffer more.

Fortunately, I never had to face a separation and tell it to the kids. I couldn't stand a reaction like Paige's. How I understand it. And how I understand Elizabeth’s sad look after Paige told her what she wants.

”We know what you don’t want, so tell me what you want” - “Why do you have to tell your friends anything?”

That are so Elizabeth.

I was struck once again by how P&E can talk about kids even though they’re in deep shit with Amador.

I never like Amador. But I can feel Stan behavior.  I think Amador flashbacks don’t work to make Amador feel like a Stan real friend, but I can buy Stan reaction. Even though they weren’t real friends, they were partner.

There aren’t good guys here. Only persons!

Philip’s ”Holy shit” is really good for situation…

Martha’s “is it real” is as a shot for Philip.

Nina did’t buy Stan doesn’t know who killed Vlad.

Poor Vlad, the only one really innocent. We lost a good doctor!

Edited July 25, 2022 by Andy73

[Paloma]

12 hours ago, Andy73 said:

I just started rewatched the show. 

I like discovering new things or that I had forgotten. And I love how the show stayed true to itself until the final credits rolled, and in doing so, proved how great it really is.

Yesterday I was on S01x09-10-11

I'm glad you are joining the rewatch, and I agree with you about discovering new things or things that were forgotten. I am in season 3 rewatch now and will comment about those episodes, so if you don't want to be reminded yet of what happens, you should stop reading my comment here.

I just finished the amazing scene between Elizabeth and the old woman (AV Club tells me that her name is Betty, though I didn't remember hearing it) in "Do Mail Robots Dream of Electric Sheep?" The first time I watched this scene I remember the emotional impact of Betty's stories of her life, acceptance of her fate, and attempt to connect with Elizabeth as a human being. I was also struck by the honesty of Elizabeth's answers, though of course the reason she could answer Betty honestly was that Elizabeth knew from the moment she entered the office that she would have to kill Betty.   

But what struck me on this rewatch and actually angered me (since I knew how it would end) is why Elizabeth had to go upstairs to the office to see who was there. She and Philip were in the dark and working quietly, and it seemed apparent that whoever was up in the office was there to get something or to work, not to do a security check. And since this person had obviously come in by an entrance that did not reveal Elizabeth and Philip, it's logical to assume that the person would leave the same way. So if Elizabeth had stayed put in the repair area downstairs (keeping watch in case someone came near) and had not revealed herself by going upstairs into the office, it's likely that they would never have encountered Betty and therefore would not had to commit murder. I understand that all of this was a plot device to show Elizabeth's humanity breaking through her long-standing mindset of having no doubts about doing whatever was necessary for the mission and the cause, but it still bothered me because going up to see who was there, when it wasn't necessary, seemed like a stupid mistake in carrying out the mission.  

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, Andy73 said:

Hi, I’m new here.

Thank you Sistermagpie to tell me about this com.

🙂

13 hours ago, Andy73 said:

I loved how the show is so mindful of detail.  All the characters are what they are because the choices they made or what they faced. As in real life nothing would be the same for them if they had made different choices.

I just started rewatched the show. 

I like discovering new things or that I had forgotten. And I love how the show stayed true to itself until the final credits rolled, and in doing so, proved how great it really is.

This is a thing that I really love about my rewatch too. I know this show is more plot directed than, say, Mad Men, but it's so satisfying to see just how character-driven it is. All the characters are set up from the beginning to end up where they end up. 

13 hours ago, Andy73 said:

I like P&E continues to work so well together despite the breakup. Elizabeth never blames Philip for what happened. She could have done it, but she didn’t. She understood him and she helps him. Now we know how they will be, but I also bought it the first time. They are excellent partners at work, they have two kids and they don’t  want to give up everything. Even then I suspected  she still loved him and that she drove him away so as not to suffer more.

Yes, there's a lot of little things they simply don't bring up with each other or blame each other for. I feel like this is going to be good for them at the end of the show. I read a thing once about long relationships and what it takes to make them last. People who had been together 20 years or so said "communication" was most important. People 50+ years said: Respect. They get that. 

13 hours ago, Andy73 said:

I was struck once again by how P&E can talk about kids even though they’re in deep shit with Amador.

This is one of the reasons it always drove me crazy when people would rewrite the show to pretend they neglected or ignored the kids, or didn't know them because they had demanding jobs. Not only do they mostly fulfill all the basic needs of parenting, they're obviously interested in the kids as individuals, even if they don't always understand them. They're never disinterested parents.

13 hours ago, Andy73 said:

I never like Amador. But I can feel Stan behavior.  I think Amador flashbacks don’t work to make Amador feel like a Stan real friend, but I can buy Stan reaction. Even though they weren’t real friends, they were partner.

Yes, in a way it makes more sense the more you know Stan, because he'd take it personally that this guy is his partner. Even if as a person he mostly just encouraged him to cheat on his wife and was sexist.

13 hours ago, Andy73 said:

Martha’s “is it real” is as a shot for Philip.

I love how you can start to see Martha making her own demands and deals with Clark. She's not just a passive victim in this con. She's always making up her own schemes.

34 minutes ago, Paloma said:

I just finished the amazing scene between Elizabeth and the old woman (AV Club tells me that her name is Betty, though I didn't remember hearing it) in "Do Mail Robots Dream of Electric Sheep?" The first time I watched this scene I remember the emotional impact of Betty's stories of her life, acceptance of her fate, and attempt to connect with Elizabeth as a human being. I was also struck by the honesty of Elizabeth's answers, though of course the reason she could answer Betty honestly was that Elizabeth knew from the moment she entered the office that she would have to kill Betty.   

But what struck me on this rewatch and actually angered me (since I knew how it would end) is why Elizabeth had to go upstairs to the office to see who was there. She and Philip were in the dark and working quietly, and it seemed apparent that whoever was up in the office was there to get something or to work, not to do a security check. And since this person had obviously come in by an entrance that did not reveal Elizabeth and Philip, it's logical to assume that the person would leave the same way. So if Elizabeth had stayed put in the repair area downstairs (keeping watch in case someone came near) and had not revealed herself by going upstairs into the office, it's likely that they would never have encountered Betty and therefore would not had to commit murder. I understand that all of this was a plot device to show Elizabeth's humanity breaking through her long-standing mindset of having no doubts about doing whatever was necessary for the mission and the cause, but it still bothered me because going up to see who was there, when it wasn't necessary, seemed like a stupid mistake in carrying out the mission.  

The first time I saw that ep I absolutely hated it. First because Betty just seemed so fake to me. Like I laughed at how she just seemed to reel off a list of ways she was just like Elizabeth. It was like Elizabeth wandered out of the show and into a one-act play, and part of that was wondering why on earth she even goes in there without a disguise.

Plus, once she does that I resented the way she seemed to basically use the woman to talk about her mother, because she loves to able to talk about herself honestly. So it's like because she's going to kill the woman she gets to enjoy getting to say some things first. It was the only time I actually wanted her to get caught!

Re-watching it now it doesn't bother me as much anywhere and the Betty scenes take up much less of the ep than I remembered.

There were also some at the time who thought the show just made a mistake in making Betty so old, as if they forgot that WW2 vets in 1983 weren't that old. But obviously they now that since Claudia is one. I think making her that old sort of fits Elizabeth, though. The woman's surrounded by b&w photos and even the photo of her now grown son is a baby picture. She's living in the distant past, as Elizabeth is in danger of doing sometimes. Plus she's got that long marriage, which Elizabeth really wants imo. (I sometimes wonder if Betty's frankly weird story about her best friend/enemy, her husband's second wife, makes Elizabeth think of Martha or Irina.)

[Paloma]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

It was like Elizabeth wandered out of the show and into a one-act play, and part of that was wondering why on earth she even goes in there without a disguise.

I can see that now, and it's funny that you use that description because I just looked at the AV Club recap, which describes the scene as "a one-woman show about the peaks and valleys of a life that’s about to end." And later in the recap, "If [Lois] Smith’s performances feels stagey at times, it’s only because she’s an award-winning veteran of the stage, doing TV work in a role and an environment of theatrical simplicity." So in a sense Betty did seem fake, as you put it, but I still had an real emotional reaction to her performance and to the scene overall.