S05.E20: Gone Rogue

[SimoneS]

11 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Actually, I disagree. Sherloque should have apologized for the way he exposed her. Putting her on blast in front everyone was wrong. however, that wasn't my problem with the scene. I said it before, but I didn't like he didn't wait and see what Nora was going to do. Moments before Cecile confirmed that Nora had something to say. Then, Sherloque came in and started talking. If he had just waited to see Nora was actually going to reveal something after Cecile said something, I would be okay. He didn't.

We can just agree to disagree on that one. 

[adora721]

20 hours ago, SweetTooth said:

But the coup de gras for me was when she threatened Cisco with putting her hand through his heart. She can't come back from that. Not even if it was to impress her friends. Because Cisco got a huge case of PTSD right then, and I"m sorry, but when my least favorite character does that to one of my favorite characters, they are dead to me. 

There's an accessory to murder still on team Flash; there's an accessory to slave trafficking on team Flash. Team Flash will get over it and Nora will come back from it.

Team Flash has lowered its standards so far that what Nora has done will be viewed as nothing in the end. 😊

Edited May 7, 2019 by adora721

[blugirlami21]

I loved everything about your post SweetTooth!  Preach it.  Like I just don't understand anything that is happening on the Flash this season.  The character writing and decision making.  

What Nora did to Cisco was horrible.  Cisco isn't some stranger on the street, he is a close family friend and you decide to retraumatize him by threatening to kill him like his father figure did once before?  Someone you have professed to working with and have someone convinced everyone else that he has changed and can be forgiven? 

Are they for real with apologizing to Nora for treating a bad guy like he's a really bad guy?  The Reverse Flash aka Eobard Thawne aka the guy that went back in time solely to kill the Flash as a child and killed his mom instead because he was angry, that guy?  And that's just on this show.  So the writers aka Nora expect me to believe that he has all of a sudden seen the light and the error his ways and is now the side of good?  Sure.

I wish I could say that Barry and Iris are playing the long con and are only going along with this to figure out what he's really up to but I have very little faith that this will happen.  

And all this talk about Nora being home in the year of 2019 is total nonsense.  She doesn't belong in this time, Barry was right to send her back home and she has done nothing but repeatedly make things worse by sticking around and trying to "fix" it.  Send her back home where she lives.  Is she going to stick around for her own birth?  I love JPK but I will be so happy when this season is over and I can forget that Nora West-Allen exists and will possibly exist in the future for awhile.

Edited May 7, 2019 by blugirlami21

[steelyis]

9 hours ago, SweetTooth said:

The reason she had to get this "tech" in the first place, is because she doubled the Cicada problem and spawned a new Cicada, who wound up killing a bunch of people, including Caitlin's dad.

Holy shit, I ddn't make the connection until I read that!

Cicada is ultimately responsible for whatever crimes she commits, but there's no denying Cicada wouldn't be there to murder people if Nora wasn't blundering around in the past like a mopey fifteen year old with daddy issues.

[BkWurm1]

7 hours ago, steelyis said:

Holy shit, I ddn't make the connection until I read that!

Cicada is ultimately responsible for whatever crimes she commits, but there's no denying Cicada wouldn't be there to murder people if Nora wasn't blundering around in the past like a mopey fifteen year old with daddy issues.

We don't know that the first Cicada wouldn't have also killed Caitlin's dad.  We just know that he continued killing and no one could stop him.  It's been a different Cicada right from the start this time but we don't actually know that this time is worse than in the other timeline. 

This episode was uneven and they tried to push the audience to consider maybe if Nora really had permanently gone to the darkside while also making it super clear that, no, she hadn't.  (I mean sure she threatened Cisco with the hand of doom but she also already had made the New Rogues promise not to kill anyone so we knew  already that Cisco was in no danger.  He didn't know it but the audience knew it was an empty but effective threat)

They glossed over some of Nora's angry outburst by her saying she had to stay in a certain mindframe to keep using the negtaive speedforce but I do think it did effectively explain why she seemed not to count Iris's love her her as mattering when Iris came for her in the future.  She was still trying to access the negative force and so she had to push out of her mind any warm thoughts about Iris and just concentrate on Dick Dad.  So I think that excuse did effectively explain why Iris seemed to get snubbed even if the episode didn't really explain WHY Nora had to keep it up al the time later.

I mean, Barry has never before been able to use the speedforce as GPS to track any other speedster so I call BS on that.  I can buy he'd feel something if she returned using it but not that he could easily find her.  Maybe Nora and Thawne both bought his lie?  

I do like the idea of Nora having been right about trusting Thawne in this instance.  He may still have his own agenda underneath helping but from what we've been shown, I'm happy to find that Thawne's seemingly genuine assistance really was.  I don't like when shows pull the evil card without laying down any current signs to support it.  Just his history isn't enough in this case IMO so it's a nice swerve that yup, he really is being helpful.  Again, he likely has some other plan too but I don't think one excludes the other from being true.  

I also like that Nora was sticking to her mission even at great personal cost to herself.  (Well she was until they got the sdevice and she's suddenly ready to give up the plan, but still, till then, props)  I think that shows real growth.  She had so little self confidence in the beginning.

[SimoneS]

The woman that Grace killed was her doctor, not a nurse. The doctor was treating her and helping her uncle which makes it worse. 

Below is what Thawne told Cisco before phasing his hand through his chest. That Barry, Iris, Cisco, and Joe can forget this is unbelievable. 

Quote

You're smart, Cisco. But you're not that smart. Do you know how hard it has been to keep all of this from you, especially from you? Because the truth is, I've grown quite fond of you. And in many ways, you have shown me what it's like to have a son. Forgive me, but to me, you've been dead for centuries.

[SimoneS]

3 minutes ago, SweetTooth said:

And I want to stress again that she did not change the team for the better. That was a major tell don't show moment muttered by a still-guilty Iris.

I am blaming every idiotic thing that Iris has said about accepting Nora working with Thawne and him changing because of her on Nora brainwashing Iris into believing that she is a shit mother. Barry was right that Iris is so desperate to make up for her future self's mistakes and bond with Nora that she is willing to go along with Nora's lies and utter stupidity.