S02.E05: Reptile Boy

[Lisin]

Upset again at Angel, Buffy lies to Giles and goes to a frat party with Cordelia, where their dates drug them and chain them in the basement. The house brothers worship a snake demon and sacrifice girls to it annually in exchange for wealth and power. Giles, Angel, and Willow compare notes and meet up with Xander just in time to help Buffy break up the cabal.

 

I liked this episode when I first saw it, but I think now because I'm an old I'm being to hard on Buffy and it's hard to be objective. I like a lot of the parts of this episode but I'm annoyed by petulant Buffy not understanding the need to train and the fact that Angel is so much older. The whole Frat Party thing was fine I guess. 

[Vanessa1214]

This episode has my favorite Xander moment. At the end, Angel walks up to the table and says in a low voice, "Buffy." Buffy replies in a low voice, "Angel." Then Xander says in his low voice, "Xander." And rolls his eyes. It's so funny. 

[Halting Hex]

"Angel, Angel, Angel…does every conversation we have have to come around to that freak?" (Notices Angel, lurking; completely nonplussed) "Hey, buddy.  How's it going?"

Heh.  I love Xander.

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; Buffy slumping her head onto the table. Willow's rant at Giles and Angel. Cordy and Buffy getting all hot-to-trot for the party. Queen C's driving skills. Jonathon! On a date with Cordy no less. Buffy pouting (Giles her father figure more than ever)

The Bad; The endings a bit cheery considering the fate of all those poor girls over the years, just like the disappearing corpses in The Harvest. You utterly cringe at the misogyny of the Frat boys. What exactly do the Sunnydale police make of the demon's body?

Best Line; Buffy (to Angel)"When you kiss me I want to die"(of course 'die' also being a Shakespearean metaphor for orgasm...?)

Questions and observations; Buffy and Cordy go illicitly to a party with a bunch of older guys, pass out through drinking and end up in chains being menaced by a huge snake. Or what the girls at my old school used to call 'Saturday night'. (Apologies to the writers of Friends). Seriously though I was beginning to think I was seeing sexual subtext where there was none but upon listening to David Greenwalt's DVD commentary it's clear that's exactly what was intended. Xander also tries his hand at cross-dressing.

Another point for bisexual Will, she seems to fancy the frat boys. You wonder if Mayor Wilkins was a member of the fraternity? An OK ep but not the best, I'll give it 6/10 but that might be a little generous

[Halting Hex]

The pledge being initiated early on ("In his name!") is played by Coby Bell, who's gone on to have a nice career.  (Third Watch, The Game, Burn Notice, The Gifted.)   I mean, he's no Amy Adams, but still.

[SosaLola]

- That first scene with the Scoobies watching Bollywood has to be the most endearing those three ever been in the whole show and the comics. I wish we got to see more sleepovers of them – though I suspect they’re usually at Buffy’s house, because Willow’s mom doesn’t allow boys in her daughter’s bedroom and I doubt they’d be able to hear a movie with the daily/nightly fighting match going on at Xander’s home. Joyce always seemed to be more welcoming to Buffy’s friends, perhaps because she’s desperate for her daughter to fit in especially with good children. Despite her flaws, she is generally a sweet mother who among the verse’s sea of bad parents stands out as the best. 

I love how Buffy found it difficult to braid Willow’s hair, then she’d glance at Xander’s fine job and try again unsuccessfully. Xander must have braided Willow’s hair plenty of times growing up, it also shows how well Xander works with his hands, he will mention later that he has a nice handwriting and his carving as he starts construction is of excellent quality. 

- Buffy wears those giraffe pants twice this season, right? I know people, myself included; complain about Buffy never repeating an outfit especially in the we-are-so-freaking-poor S6, but could she have repeated a more flattering outfit? 

-

Spoiler

Buffy having sexual dreams about Angel is foreshadowing Surprise.

Her growing interest in kissing Angel and having sex with him doesn’t stop her from admitting that she is “brainsick.” She’s aware that she can’t have a relationship with him, which will make Angel’s condescending accusations later about her being a child dreaming of a fairy tale hit a major sour nerve. She knows this relationship could never work and last, but so far, other than Xander whose opposition to the relationship is coming from a place of jealousy, no one is advising her against it. Willow is Bangel’s biggest shipper and Giles tries his best to avoid dealing with any of the three’s personal life: which I thought was irresponsible regarding Buffy’s situation. A slayer having a relationship with a vampire should have screamed red lights, even if the vampire is a good one. Angel also didn’t raise any objections – speaking solely about WSWB and SAR – so it’s no surprise that Buffy would peruse this even when knowing deep down that it’s doomed. 

I love how Willow is enjoying all the girl talk and giving Buffy advice – poor thing must have longed to have a friend of the female gender. But I can see how Buffy and Willow bonding that way is outcasting Xander. Though I believe he brought it on himself with his constant bashing of Angel, I don’t blame Buffy or Willow for not including him in discussions about Buffy’s love life. 

Spoiler

- Another foreshadowing: Xander’s career as a pizza-delivery guy.

About the Willow/Buffy outcasting Xander: I notice that when Cordelia makes fun of Xander, usually Buffy and sometimes Willow stifle their laughter or smile instead of showing some sympathy. It is different when Buffy or Willow are the victims of Cordelia’s tongue, because then they get showered with sympathy. Is it because Xander is a guy? Guys being humiliated is funny, but it’s insensitive to humiliate a girl – which brings me to that dreadful scene in the frat house where Xander gets humiliated for laughs. 

- This episode is about being more responsible – something Giles and Angel expect from Buffy so much that they forget how young she is. Buffy tries to rebel against what’s expected from her that she agrees to accompany Cordelia of all people to a college party. Too much pressure isn’t good for a person and that pressure put on Buffy is why she chose to act reckless. At the party, she’ll discover that she can’t just be irresponsible after having the weight of the world on her shoulders. She’s been burdened with responsibility for so long; she can’t just be that popular ditzy girl anymore. 

- The Buffy/Giles pouting scene is just adorable! This episode is filled with Scooby goodness. I can understand why Giles is being too hard on Buffy after having failed her in S1 because, according to him, he hadn’t prepared her well enough to go up against the Master. 

- You can clearly see Buffy’s taste in men when she met the fraternity boys. Richard, who is crude and forward, is rejected right away, while Tom, who mocks Richard’s approach and plays the down-to-earth card appeals to her. She tends to be attracted to mature guys – usually older than her – and it has something to do with her calling and how much it has given her a maturity beyond her years:

Spoiler

sensitive guys like Owen, Angel and Scott, guys who use sensitivity to fool girls like Tom and Parker, and guys whose sensitivity she’ll discover later like Riley and Spike. 

- Xander can clearly see behind Tom’s act but I struggle to decide whether it is an insight on his part (because honestly Tom’s pick-up lines are corny and obvious) or just jealousy. I think it’s a bit of both because Xander can be perceptive when he wants to be, and being a guy, he must have heard a lot of those pick-up lines before. 

- I don’t like the Buffy/Angel scene in the graveyard. Everybody likes to blame it on DB’s acting, but IMO the writing really sucked in that scene. I don’t buy that Angel would bring up the word “date” that abruptly nor the word “coffee.” The scene was too on the nose with Angel warning Buffy about having a relationship with him and as I said before it doesn’t make sense with how they left things in Some Assembly Required where Angel confesses to being attracted to Buffy and being jealous of Xander, showing no sign of being against them going for a relationship. 

- Good for Buffy to put Xander and Giles in their places in the library, especially Xander. You can sense Willow’s annoyance in her reply when he asks “Who’s Tom?” Buffy and Willow tend to ignore Xander instead of telling him off. I think if Buffy took a firm approach, Xander would eventually back off, ignoring him isn’t the right solution IMO. 

- I looooooove Xander and Willow’s expressions when Buffy lies to Giles. Xander’s all disappointed and Willow looking shocked. 

- Does anybody know the weird thing Buffy does with her hair that Cordelia is talking about? 

- There is something sweet about Xander and Willow sharing snacks. 

- Frat parties are totally not my thing. I don’t get the appeal: they’re almost always about raping girls and humiliating boys. That scene when Xander is forced to wear a wig, bra and a skirt, I’m not gonna lie, I skipped it. I can’t watch scenes like that. It’s too difficult for me. 

- The humiliation Xander gets is obviously a punishment for going to the frat party for fun instead of being there for Buffy. When he’s there, he doesn’t search for Buffy at all, he gets allured by the hot babes and food only to timidly ask about Buffy when he’s tossed out. 

- Buffy and Cordelia are also being punished for lying to their parents and going to college parties. 

- I love how the first seasons focus on the vampire lore and make sure to get it right. There will be a lot of sloppy mistakes in the later seasons. Willow is so adorable staring at the mirror that doesn’t show Angel’s reflection. She’s right, how does Angel shave? 

- I think underneath the meek, insecure girl there has always been a strong woman inside of Willow that shows up every once in a while during the high school years: when she rejected Xander in PG and right now as she’s telling Giles and Angel off for mistreating Buffy. 

- As Xander walks away from the frat house licking his wounds and showing off his hot, hot, hot, hot body, he notices Cordelia’s car and realizes that Buffy and Cordelia are still inside and probably in danger. And then he does something about it.

Spoiler

When he read Queen C and got all concerned, I felt it was a foreshadowing to his relationship with Cordelia, though obviously he was more concerned about the person who accompanied her.

 

- I love the fighting scene with the gang: Xander punching the guy then holding his fist with pain is exactly why I adore him, Angel giving one last punch before going down the basement, Giles searching for Buffy and then brushing off the frat guy who attacks him is hilarious and ripper-y, Willow hopping over one of those jerks to get to the basement, and of course Xander’s rant, I love how the camera just moves from one of them to the other.

- Xander is sixteen and a half by this time: 13th of October. He was probably born in December 1980 or the beginning of January 1981 - because he admitted to being 17 on Buffy’s birthday. Tara’s birthday episode was aired in the 7th of November, which makes her older than Xander. I’m obsessed with characters’ birthdays. There should have been more birthday episodes for characters other than Buffy. 

- Buffy and Giles coming to an understanding in the end is simply precious. 

- Jonathan cameo! 

- And Angel asks Buffy on a date!

Spoiler

Which will be a bust next episode.

[Halting Hex]

21 hours ago, SosaLola said:

Joyce always seemed to be more welcoming to Buffy’s friends, perhaps because she’s desperate for her daughter to fit in especially with good children.

As of School Hard, Cordelia had only seen Joyce from a distance, but by 

Spoiler

Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered

Joyce doesn't find Cordy turning up at the house at all surprising, so CC must have done some visiting in between.  Perhaps they formally meet here, when Cordelia swings by Revello Drive to pick Buffy up and drive her to the party.  I hope Cordelia made a good impression on Joyce…after all, as Xander says, "Cordelia's much better for you than Angel."  So true.

Spoiler

Even before Buffy starts having bisexual adventures in S8.

And we shouldn't be discussing 

Spoiler

Tara

at all here, yet, but

Spoiler

her birthdate is specifically given on her tombstone in Help.  I believe it's October 16.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎26‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 8:17 AM, SosaLola said:

- That first scene with the Scoobies watching Bollywood has to be the most endearing those three ever been in the whole show and the comics. I wish we got to see more sleepovers of them – though I suspect they’re usually at Buffy’s house, because Willow’s mom doesn’t allow boys in her daughter’s bedroom and I doubt they’d be able to hear a movie with the daily/nightly fighting match going on at Xander’s home. Joyce always seemed to be more welcoming to Buffy’s friends, perhaps because she’s desperate for her daughter to fit in especially with good children. Despite her flaws, she is generally a sweet mother who among the verse’s sea of bad parents stands out as the best. 

I love how Buffy found it difficult to braid Willow’s hair, then she’d glance at Xander’s fine job and try again unsuccessfully. Xander must have braided Willow’s hair plenty of times growing up, it also shows how well Xander works with his hands, he will mention later that he has a nice handwriting and his carving as he starts construction is of excellent quality. 

- Buffy wears those giraffe pants twice this season, right? I know people, myself included; complain about Buffy never repeating an outfit especially in the we-are-so-freaking-poor S6, but could she have repeated a more flattering outfit? 

-

  Hide contents

Buffy having sexual dreams about Angel is foreshadowing Surprise.

Her growing interest in kissing Angel and having sex with him doesn’t stop her from admitting that she is “brainsick.” She’s aware that she can’t have a relationship with him, which will make Angel’s condescending accusations later about her being a child dreaming of a fairy tale hit a major sour nerve. She knows this relationship could never work and last, but so far, other than Xander whose opposition to the relationship is coming from a place of jealousy, no one is advising her against it. Willow is Bangel’s biggest shipper and Giles tries his best to avoid dealing with any of the three’s personal life: which I thought was irresponsible regarding Buffy’s situation. A slayer having a relationship with a vampire should have screamed red lights, even if the vampire is a good one. Angel also didn’t raise any objections – speaking solely about WSWB and SAR – so it’s no surprise that Buffy would peruse this even when knowing deep down that it’s doomed. 

I love how Willow is enjoying all the girl talk and giving Buffy advice – poor thing must have longed to have a friend of the female gender. But I can see how Buffy and Willow bonding that way is outcasting Xander. Though I believe he brought it on himself with his constant bashing of Angel, I don’t blame Buffy or Willow for not including him in discussions about Buffy’s love life. 

  Hide contents

- Another foreshadowing: Xander’s career as a pizza-delivery guy.

About the Willow/Buffy outcasting Xander: I notice that when Cordelia makes fun of Xander, usually Buffy and sometimes Willow stifle their laughter or smile instead of showing some sympathy. It is different when Buffy or Willow are the victims of Cordelia’s tongue, because then they get showered with sympathy. Is it because Xander is a guy? Guys being humiliated is funny, but it’s insensitive to humiliate a girl – which brings me to that dreadful scene in the frat house where Xander gets humiliated for laughs. 

- This episode is about being more responsible – something Giles and Angel expect from Buffy so much that they forget how young she is. Buffy tries to rebel against what’s expected from her that she agrees to accompany Cordelia of all people to a college party. Too much pressure isn’t good for a person and that pressure put on Buffy is why she chose to act reckless. At the party, she’ll discover that she can’t just be irresponsible after having the weight of the world on her shoulders. She’s been burdened with responsibility for so long; she can’t just be that popular ditzy girl anymore. 

- The Buffy/Giles pouting scene is just adorable! This episode is filled with Scooby goodness. I can understand why Giles is being too hard on Buffy after having failed her in S1 because, according to him, he hadn’t prepared her well enough to go up against the Master. 

- You can clearly see Buffy’s taste in men when she met the fraternity boys. Richard, who is crude and forward, is rejected right away, while Tom, who mocks Richard’s approach and plays the down-to-earth card appeals to her. She tends to be attracted to mature guys – usually older than her – and it has something to do with her calling and how much it has given her a maturity beyond her years:

  Hide contents

sensitive guys like Owen, Angel and Scott, guys who use sensitivity to fool girls like Tom and Parker, and guys whose sensitivity she’ll discover later like Riley and Spike. 

- Xander can clearly see behind Tom’s act but I struggle to decide whether it is an insight on his part (because honestly Tom’s pick-up lines are corny and obvious) or just jealousy. I think it’s a bit of both because Xander can be perceptive when he wants to be, and being a guy, he must have heard a lot of those pick-up lines before. 

- I don’t like the Buffy/Angel scene in the graveyard. Everybody likes to blame it on DB’s acting, but IMO the writing really sucked in that scene. I don’t buy that Angel would bring up the word “date” that abruptly nor the word “coffee.” The scene was too on the nose with Angel warning Buffy about having a relationship with him and as I said before it doesn’t make sense with how they left things in Some Assembly Required where Angel confesses to being attracted to Buffy and being jealous of Xander, showing no sign of being against them going for a relationship. 

- Good for Buffy to put Xander and Giles in their places in the library, especially Xander. You can sense Willow’s annoyance in her reply when he asks “Who’s Tom?” Buffy and Willow tend to ignore Xander instead of telling him off. I think if Buffy took a firm approach, Xander would eventually back off, ignoring him isn’t the right solution IMO. 

- I looooooove Xander and Willow’s expressions when Buffy lies to Giles. Xander’s all disappointed and Willow looking shocked. 

- Does anybody know the weird thing Buffy does with her hair that Cordelia is talking about? 

- There is something sweet about Xander and Willow sharing snacks. 

- Frat parties are totally not my thing. I don’t get the appeal: they’re almost always about raping girls and humiliating boys. That scene when Xander is forced to wear a wig, bra and a skirt, I’m not gonna lie, I skipped it. I can’t watch scenes like that. It’s too difficult for me. 

- The humiliation Xander gets is obviously a punishment for going to the frat party for fun instead of being there for Buffy. When he’s there, he doesn’t search for Buffy at all, he gets allured by the hot babes and food only to timidly ask about Buffy when he’s tossed out. 

- Buffy and Cordelia are also being punished for lying to their parents and going to college parties. 

- I love how the first seasons focus on the vampire lore and make sure to get it right. There will be a lot of sloppy mistakes in the later seasons. Willow is so adorable staring at the mirror that doesn’t show Angel’s reflection. She’s right, how does Angel shave? 

- I think underneath the meek, insecure girl there has always been a strong woman inside of Willow that shows up every once in a while during the high school years: when she rejected Xander in PG and right now as she’s telling Giles and Angel off for mistreating Buffy. 

- As Xander walks away from the frat house licking his wounds and showing off his hot, hot, hot, hot body, he notices Cordelia’s car and realizes that Buffy and Cordelia are still inside and probably in danger. And then he does something about it.

  Hide contents

When he read Queen C and got all concerned, I felt it was a foreshadowing to his relationship with Cordelia, though obviously he was more concerned about the person who accompanied her.

 

- I love the fighting scene with the gang: Xander punching the guy then holding his fist with pain is exactly why I adore him, Angel giving one last punch before going down the basement, Giles searching for Buffy and then brushing off the frat guy who attacks him is hilarious and ripper-y, Willow hopping over one of those jerks to get to the basement, and of course Xander’s rant, I love how the camera just moves from one of them to the other.

- Xander is sixteen and a half by this time: 13th of October. He was probably born in December 1980 or the beginning of January 1981 - because he admitted to being 17 on Buffy’s birthday. Tara’s birthday episode was aired in the 7th of November, which makes her older than Xander. I’m obsessed with characters’ birthdays. There should have been more birthday episodes for characters other than Buffy. 

- Buffy and Giles coming to an understanding in the end is simply precious. 

- Jonathan cameo! 

- And Angel asks Buffy on a date!

  Hide contents

Which will be a bust next episode.

A little unfair on Scott Hope, he had his reasons for 

Spoiler

leading Buffy on and then dumping her and they were nothing to do with seducing her, quite the reverse in fact.

Joyce is the best TV mother ever, beautiful, loving and caring but strong and not some perfect housewife cliché.

 I think the girls sometimes take delight in CC teasing Xander because he is the typical male jerk sometimes and she says what they're sometimes thinking.  

3 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

As of School Hard, Cordelia had only seen Joyce from a distance, but by 

  Hide contents

Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered

Joyce doesn't find Cordy turning up at the house at all surprising, so CC must have done some visiting in between.  Perhaps they formally meet here, when Cordelia swings by Revello Drive to pick Buffy up and drive her to the party.  I hope Cordelia made a good impression on Joyce…after all, as Xander says, "Cordelia's much better for you than Angel."  So true.

  Hide contents

Even before Buffy starts having bisexual adventures in S8.

And we shouldn't be discussing 

  Hide contents

Tara

at all here, yet, but

  Hide contents

her birthdate is specifically given on her tombstone in Help.  I believe it's October 16.

I never really bought Cuffy because they were almost too similar in many ways. I could always see Cillow, I remember whole webpages dedicated to it with their faces transposed onto Xena and Gabby's faces. 

[Halting Hex]

9 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I never really bought Cuffy because they were almost too similar in many ways

I prefer to call it "Buffelia".  As in "Feel yah" ;)   And while I can see your objection (I prefer how Buffy and Willow complement each other, Buffy always seeing Willow as beautiful when Will herself doesn't, Willow refusing to let Buffy believe she's only "the Slayer", good for nothing more than killing and not even so good at that), I find it odd that you'd make a big deal out of it, given that you've expressed interest in 

Spoiler

Buffy/Faith and Buffy/Spike

and the show kept hitting us over the head with how similar Buffy was to them.  Buffy and CC sharing an affection for shoes wouldn't seem a disqualifier, then, given that Joss wants us to think that 

Spoiler

"being a Slayer, there's a burden we can't share." "And no one else can feel it.  Thank god we're hot chicks with superpowers"

is some deep statement on bonding.  Whatever, Joss. Of Buffy's "mirrors", I know which one I'd choose.

[Joe Hellandback]

2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I prefer to call it "Buffelia".  As in "Feel yah" ;)   And while I can see your objection (I prefer how Buffy and Willow complement each other, Buffy always seeing Willow as beautiful when Will herself doesn't, Willow refusing to let Buffy believe she's only "the Slayer", good for nothing more than killing and not even so good at that), I find it odd that you'd make a big deal out of it, given that you've expressed interest in 

  Hide contents

Buffy/Faith and Buffy/Spike

and the show kept hitting us over the head with how similar Buffy was to them.  Buffy and CC sharing an affection for shoes wouldn't seem a disqualifier, then, given that Joss wants us to think that 

  Hide contents

"being a Slayer, there's a burden we can't share." "And no one else can feel it.  Thank god we're hot chicks with superpowers"

is some deep statement on bonding.  Whatever, Joss. Of Buffy's "mirrors", I know which one I'd choose.

Me too

[lembergwatcher]

Just love it:
 

Quote

Willow: You lied to Giles.

Xander: 'Cause she will.

Buffy: Look, I wasn't lying. I was just... protecting him from information that he wouldn't be able to... digest properly.

Xander: Like a corn dog.

Willow: Like you don't have a sick mother, but you'd rather go to a frat party where there's gonna be drinking and older guys and probably an orgy.

I hope that demonizing of the frat boys (sacrifising innocent girls to a penis-like snake demon, humiliating people who don't belong to fraternity, portraing them as stereotypical arrogant snobbish rich boys) we clearly see in this episode has nothing to do with "omnipresent bullying" Joss Whedon complained about, recalling his stint at Winchester College.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎28‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 5:51 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Just love it:
 

I hope that demonizing of the frat boys (sacrifising innocent girls to a penis-like snake demon, humiliating people who don't belong to fraternity, portraing them as stereotypical arrogant snobbish rich boys) we clearly see in this episode has nothing to do with "omnipresent bullying" Joss Whedon complained about, recalling his stint at Winchester College.

I think most TV/movies are written by writers who were bullied at school and this is their revenge, the comebacks to insults they thought of too late to use them and every character who comes to a bad end named after someone they hated. 

[lembergwatcher]

I think we needed more Buffy in chains throughout the series.

[Joe Hellandback]

17 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I think we needed more Buffy in chains throughout the series.

No shortage of bondage in this show, up there with Wonder Woman frankly.  

[lembergwatcher]

Those arrogant frat boys either were too lazy or didn't want to pay for water. How about hygiene and showing old Machida some respect (since they owed the penis-shaped monster everything they had)? Why not let poor Callie take a shower before the sacrifice? And why did those dumb guys want to sacrifice Buffy, Callie and Cordelia dressed? I bet Machida wouldn't be too happy if it had pieces of cloth in its teeth... 

[Halting Hex]

Hey, Tom had enough trouble keeping Richard (and the boys) from raping Buffy when she had her clothes on.  Strip them down and the sacrifices will be violated before Tom can even get halfway through the invocation.  

It's not specified that the sacrifices have to be virginal (and we have no information about any of the girls on this issue), but it would seem to comport with tradition, and it would explain the Zeta Kappas' specific interest in recruiting high schoolers.  So keep them pure and demure, and if Machida gets a little fiber with his protein, so be it.

[lembergwatcher]

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

It's not specified that the sacrifices have to be virginal (and we have no information about any of the girls on this issue)

I thought Cordy ceased to be virgin at the end of season 1.

Spoiler

Some of her remarks made during Mr. Whitmore's class in Bad Eggs slightly indicated Queen C. was deflowered before the rest of the Scoobs (except Giles, of course). Despite appearing to be the first one to lose her virginity, it seems Cordelia had the less sex all through the Buffy and Angel series (exept the Deadboy himself). 

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

I thought Cordy ceased to be virgin at the end of season 1.

Well, her parking with Kevin during the Prophecy Girl teaser is at least interrupted by Buffy's nearby slayage.  Don't know if they got back to business after Buffy finished hers or not.  Not to mention the ensuing earthquake.  So while the earth may have moved for Cordy that night, perhaps it was only in the literal sense.

(And of course, "parking" doesn't necessarily mean fully-horizontal;  a lot of times it's just hand-work.)

And if Kevin missed his chance then, he was out of luck, as he's cold on the floor before the middle of Act 2.  

Spoiler

To be fair, we don't even know if Buffy was virginal, pre-Surprise.  We have confirmation on Xander, from Teacher's Pet, and Willow speaks of "dying a virgin" in Döppelgängland, but for all we know, there may have been a Hemery High adventure that Buffy has stricken from the record.  I'd bet against it, but…we don't really know.  "Was I…not good?" could have been just anxiety about the (much, much) older Angel, I suppose.

That said, I still think that all three sacrifices (including Callie and Cordy) were selected for their "untrod" status.  But JMO.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Melancholy]

Angel spoilers. 

Spoiler

It;s not definitive but I always thought Cordelia was a virgin until Expecting in Angel. She tells Wilson Christopher:

Cordelia:  “Look the truth is that my dating game skills are kind of rusty.  You’re the first person I’ve had over in a long... well, - ever. So, I’m open to suggestions.” 

 

Now that could mean just "sleep over in my big girl apartment." However, I think the line comes with the implication that he was the first man that she slept with. 

[Halting Hex]

Agreed, I always thought so, as well.  But, again, not specified.

Spoiler

And my father always really disagreed with this, both wrt Cordelia and wrt Xander's "I've never been up…with people" line in The Zeppo.  He refused to think that Xander and Cordy could go through all those utility closet adventures (including falling to the floor in Bad Eggs) and come out unscathed, as it were.

(Which always did make me wonder, given that he went to an all-male high school.  But I digress…)

Edited October 20, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎20‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 3:37 PM, Melancholy said:

Angel spoilers. 

  Hide contents

It;s not definitive but I always thought Cordelia was a virgin until Expecting in Angel. She tells Wilson Christopher:

Cordelia:  “Look the truth is that my dating game skills are kind of rusty.  You’re the first person I’ve had over in a long... well, - ever. So, I’m open to suggestions.” 

 

Now that could mean just "sleep over in my big girl apartment." However, I think the line comes with the implication that he was the first man that she slept with. 

No, I never bought that, I think CC refers to 'a girl having sex in a car' clearly referring to herself in season 2? I figure CC was the good time had by all at SDH

[lembergwatcher]

Quote

Xander: Okay, here's what we're gonna do: she should probably make the rounds again tonight, and we should try to figure out who that bracelet belongs to.

Giles: Yes, good idea, yes. She'll patrol, and, and we'll reconvene...

Buffy: (interrupting) Uh, hello? She's standing right here? And she's not available.

Giles: Why not?

Xander: Buffy, this is a little more important than...

Buffy: I've got a mountain of homework to do, and, um... my mom's not really feeling well, and she could probably use my help, and, um, to be truthful I'm not really feeling all that well myself.

(Willow can't believe what she's hearing and stares at Buffy).

Giles: Oh, w-w-well, um, sorry, of course. If-if-if you're not well.

Buffy: Oh, I'll take an early pass this evening, and, um, one later on, but for the bulk of the evening...

Giles: Oh, you should stay home with your mother.

I don't know about you but... Not only is this wrong on so many levels, it's outright disgusting IMO. Yes, the teenagers tend to lie time after time and Buffy seems to be doing just that on many ocassions

Spoiler

(why couldn't the writers address Buffy's pathological lying problem more explicitly throughout the series I guess I'll never know),

but you don't mess with sensitive subjects like someone's health (especially your loved one's health) or life/death issues. When I was in the university we were told about a girl who was caught skipping her test or whatever and told she did it because her mother has died just to avoid repercussions. And then her supposedly dead mommy came to the dean's office a few days later...

Spoiler

The staff's reaction was almost similar to the way Buffy reacted on Dead!Ted in her room.

I believe Buffy could have invented some credible story without bringing in her mother. I guess something like "I'm not really feeling all that well" would've been more than enough for Giles. But why mention Joyce ffs??? I don't want to sound superstitious, but

Spoiler

since I myself do believe in the divine retribution, something tells me Joyce's sickness and death several seasons later weren't a total coincidence. Payback is a bitch, you know. There's no need to fuck with that kind of stuff, Buffy.

Making Joyce and Giles into her alibis in Band Candy wasn't that repulsive but equally bad. The less is said about Buffy's treatment of Willow or Xander in Enemies the better.

JMO, of course.

Edited December 13, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

16 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Not only is this wrong on so many levels, it's outright disgusting IMO.

I don't know if I can go as far as "disgusting", but both Willow and Xander are shocked, because they had Buffy on a pedestal, and now she's being selfish.  The transcript only mentions Willow's reaction, because Aly goes all big-eyed, but you can see Nick go gloomy-faced, too…Xander had thought that Buffy was better than this, and now he's finding out that she's not.

Spoiler

 Reminds him of his parents, I suppose.  That "you're kind of my hero" thing is taking a hit here.

Mind you, Xander bears some of the responsibility here, since he was IMO trying to manipulate Giles into exerting his authority to control Buffy.  (Since Xander knows he doesn't have any authority that Buffy would respect, but he can sometimes pull Giles's strings;  he tries a version of this in Angel, as well.)  But he's not wrong, either; investigating evidence pointing to the location of a kidnapped girl is more important than Buffy's desire to go on a date with Cordelia.  So not the Buffster's finest moment, IMO, regardless of the other factors involved.

16 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I believe Buffy could have invented some credible story without bringing in her mother. I guess something like "I'm not really feeling all that well" would've been more than enough for Giles.

To be fair, Buffy has a stronger constitution than Joyce does, obviously.  But she proved vulnerable to magic in Witch, so it's not impossible that an ordinary virus might lay her low, too.

16 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I don't want to sound superstitious

I hardly want to endorse that, either, as one of the reasons I admitted to my atheism was that I really couldn't believe that a "God" who would let millions of innocent children starve every day would be concerned with making sure that the Eagles won the Super Bowl, for example.  So, personally, I'm rather skeptical of the idea that Buffy might provoke some sort of Divine Wrath by lying about Joyce's health…

…but, of course, I'm not living on a Hellmouth.  (At least as far as I know…) So it might in fact behoove Buffy to play things a little more cautiously, just in case.

[lembergwatcher]

On 26.05.2018 at 1:39 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

What exactly do the Sunnydale police make of the demon's body?

Duh. As much as I love the ep, I'd like to know what the court verdict for Richard, Tom and the other jerks was like? Or Callie's testimony, for that matter. Did both of them include "sacrificing virgins to giant penis-shaped monster" or something? It hasn't been that long since the frat boys' apprehension either. I can't imagine California courts working like Stalin-era "special troikas", after all...

[Halting Hex]

Well, if there were any remains from last year's "pledge class", it should be reasonably easy to pin it on the Zeta Kappas, since it's their house.  The part about the giant snake is almost irrelevant; they knew they were putting the girls in danger, and they did it anyhow.  (Plus the whole kidnapping issue, of course.)

I'd assume the reason for the judicial process moving so quickly would be that Unknown Frat Boy #6 (or whoever) sang like a canary to get a reduced sentence, and the DA was able to use his testimony to get the others to plead out as well.  But as the episode was rewritten on the fly (remember, Machida is supposed to get away and eat Tom as he leaves [check the script or the commentary], but as they didn't have enough time at the rented location to shoot that, they had to cobble together an ending), I don't really worry about it too much.  But JMO.

[lembergwatcher]

In this episode Angel tries to give Buffy a final warning concerning their relationship.

Quote

Angel: (bumps into her) Listen, if we date you and I both know one thing's gonna lead to another.

Buffy: One thing already has led to another. You think it's a little late to be reading me a warning label?

Angel: I'm just tryin' to protect you. This could get outta control.

Buffy: Isn't that the way it's supposed to be?

He grabs her by the shoulders and pulls her closer. She draws a startled breath.

Angel: This isn't some fairy tale. When I kiss you, you don't wake up from a deep sleep and live happily ever after.

Buffy: No. When you kiss me I wanna die.

Maybe he doesn't know that much about the gypsy curse, but he does know things "could get outta control". A 241-year-old perv is not that stupid, after all. Unfortunately he might as well talk to a brick wall. Because Buffy's stupidity and Willow's intervention do their part eventually

Spoiler

(i.e. set things on the wrong track for Buffy and Angel). One thing always leads to another, Willow (in Bangel's case - to soulles monster on the loose and lots of dead bodies). Always! Thou shalt not forget about it...

[Halting Hex]

What "intervention" on Willow's part, exactly?  Yes, she doesn't hit Buffy upside the head with a shovel or anything, but surely Buffy was going to follow her heart, Willow or not, right?

[lembergwatcher]

16 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

What "intervention" on Willow's part, exactly? Yes, she doesn't hit Buffy upside the head with a shovel or anything

And what does that have to do with Buffy? Willow encourages Angel to ask Buffy out for a cup of coffee. Which he does soon afterwards.

[Halting Hex]

Ah, okay.  To be fair, she was merely relaying Buffy's own complaint about Angel and pointing out how much it was stressing Buffy out.  It's not as though Willow came up with the idea on her own.

(And Buffy does turn him down, for what that's worth.  What happens next?  Who knows?  To quote The Doors, "The future's uncertain and the end is always near."  Probably moreso for our heroes, "this being Sunnydale, and all…")

[Halting Hex]

Quote

CORDELIA: Buffy! Did you lose weight? And your hair… all right, I respect you too much to be dishonest.

Do you, CC? Because I'm getting a little less "I respect Buffy" here, and a little more "blowing smoke up Buffy's skirt really isn't worth the effort", IMO.  Which, ironically enough, would be…dishonest.

I grant you that Cordelia has shown a sincere interest in Buffy's life, what with the "Bitch of the Year" speech in WSWB, and she's been willing to be conscripted into the group, all grousing aside. (Nearly three hours' worth of weapons-making while Buffy is busy serving her "lemonade" in School Hard, after all.) So, I'd like to see "appreciation for Buffy's burden" here.  But I don't really think that I can. But JMO.

[Halting Hex]

So, in a later episode thread, I went to lengths to note that Buffy doesn't seem to have a television.  (I looked at screencaps and everything.) Which means, of course, that I forgot about the delightful teaser here, water buffalo and all.  Mea culpa. (Channel 59 must be so upset; ratings are tough enough to get without people forgetting that the gang tuned in.)

But it does beg the question…why haven't we seen Buffy's TV before?  Where has she been hiding it?  Under the bed? I mean, not such an issue in these "stream to your tablet" days, when Buffy might literally have been keeping it tucked inside her pillowcase (just in case she wants to check out that hunk on SEAL Team in the middle of the night), but the vintage TV does seem rather come-and-go for such a large object.  Perhaps Giles comes over to do a useful transformation spell so Joyce doesn't figure out that Buffy's wasting her nights boobing out in front of the tube?

(Of course, then Joyce might worry that Giles was coming over to "do" Buffy, which would be a whole other kettle of problems.  Darn California and that stupid 18-year-old age-of-consent statute!  She's legal in London, dammit!)

[lembergwatcher]

I wonder whether Richard Anderson (one of the occult fraternity's leaders), and Callie Anderson (one of the intended victims) sharing the same last name is really a pure coincidence or there's something more to it? What if Tom and Dick wanted to sacrifice Dick's younger sister/cousin to some penis-shaped demon?.. Perverts...

[Halting Hex]

I've wondered about that myself;  you want to sacrifice a beautiful young virgin to your penis snake-Lord, and all you can find is your cousin?  Lame.

But then again, it is a fairly common name, and David Greenwalt was not great with the creative naming, as is evident from the episode title.  And the fact that the two minor frat guys are simply called "Tackle" and "Linebacker", to describe their physiques.  And the part where Greenwalt thought that "Machida" was a cool name for the demon and only later (as he says on the commentary) realized that the tech crew were using Makita power tools and he must have picked up the name, subconsciously.

And, as I've written before, I always find Tom's invocation much more amusing if I assume he's addressing his "Power Tool".

Quote

TOM:  Without you we have no power, no place in the world…

Honestly, dude, haven't you heard of Viagra™?  Less blood to clean up, I'm just saying…

[Halting Hex]

So I'm catching up with some of Lexi's vids I haven't seen, and she points out that Buffy really did wear black to the party, even though Cordelia told her not to.  She's a rebel, that Buffster.

Also, Cordy tells Buffy not to tell her mom where they're going…but how does Buffy explain being picked up by Cordelia and their both wearing sexy dresses?  Those outfits are a little much for cheerleading practice, I'm just saying.  (Especially as Buffy hasn't been on the team for over a year.)

What is Joyce supposed to think, that they're going out together, and they've dressed up because it's their first date?  I grant you that Buffy hasn't been dating any boys that Joyce knows of (it's your fault for running off that "history tutor" she brought home last year, Joyce!), but planting these sort of false ideas in your Mom's mind can only lead to complications down the road.  I mean, what if Joyce won't let you go to Willow's to study if she thinks she knows what you are "studying"?  Problems, problems.

**********************************

For somebody trying to keep an eye on Buffy, Xander doesn't do such a great job.  Yes, it's unfortunate that Buffy has her back turned when Xander walks past her right after he enters the party…but he does glance in that direction and she is a blonde girl of Buffy's height (for the excellent reason that she is, in fact, Buffy), and you'd think he might recognize her hair.  Heck, you'd think he could recognize the freckles on her shoulders, given the amount of time he spends with her.  As far as stalking goes, you're not doing a great job, kid.  Angel could teach you a thing or three.

OTOH, I only just now realized that when Xander gets caught by the frat guys, he's making that "Godzilla's attacking Tokyo!" joke to a short blonde and a tall brunette.  He must have seen the two of them from a distance and thought that they might be Buffy and Cordelia.  Which means he's working on a false assumption, that the two would stick together, when in fact CC ditched Buffy at the first chance.

Xan, just because your "Cordelia's much better for you than Angel!" assessment is obviously correct, that doesn't mean the girls are inseparable just yet.  These things take time, you know.  (No matter what Joyce might be thinking.)

***************************************

Quote

XANDER:  I'm going to the party. 

WILLOW:  What?

XANDER: Gotta keep an eye on Buffy.  Those frat guys creep me.

WILLOW:  You want to protect her?

XANDER:  Mmm-hmm.

WILLOW:  And prove that you're just as good as those rich, snotty guys?

XANDER:  Mmm-hmm.

WILLOW:  And maybe catch an orgy?

XANDER (nods):  If it's on early.

They go back to snacking.

Such a perfect scene.  Never mind the romance possibilities (IMG did a fine job of servicing those), just enjoy how easily these two fit together, the rhythm of their conversation.  Best friends to the end.

Spoiler

Which makes it so ridiculous that they practically stop doing this immediately after.  What's the next "Xander and Willow discuss their lives" scene we get?  I guess there's a little Career Fair chat in WML1, (although Buffy's there for most of that), but then what? The two of them talking about Runaway!Buffy in Anne?  (Oz joins them in the second scene [at the Bronze], but it's just the two of them for starters.). And what's after that, that isn't about their "affair" or Willow's life with Oz or Xander's marriage?  X telling that boring story about the hammer and the nail in Help, which is only there to disguise the fact that they're headed towards Tara's grave?  Ye gods.

I suppose that their discussing Buffy's freak-out over the absent Angel in Innocence might count, but that's a bit more of a crisis than just a shared moment.  And of course the whole "you'd rather be with someone you hate than be with me" scene, and its sequel, are wonderful, but that's not a bonding scene, rather the opposite.  Just weird.  This works so well, both as atmosphere and to lay the groundwork for future possibilities; why abandon it?

Next thing you know, Oz will be missing for four episodes (and only have two lines when he returns, which is ridiculous) and yet W/X will barely say two words to each other that entire time.  Way to build your "love triangle", genius. 

No wonder that when Xander declared his love in Becoming Part 2, a lot of the audience didn't believe him.  I mean, when does Xander even talk to Willow?  Now he's "in love" with her?   Worst storyline set-up ever.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

Shouldn't Giles and Willow already know that Callie has disappeared?  I mean, "this being Sunnydale and all" it's not exactly a rare occurrence, but it shouldn't be so commonplace to just slip through their net, either.  You'd think they'd keep an eye for disappearances and mysterious deaths and such.

For example, presumably they had flagged Stephan Korshak's passing as suspicious and that's why Buffy was waiting for him to rise in Some Assembly Required.  (And yes, in that same episode, the gang seems unaware of the passing of Meredith Todd and the two other girls, but that was a traffic accident.  They probably just noted it and moved on.). Buffy should have been keeping an eye out for a possible Vamp!Callie on patrol, I'd think.

********************************

Lexi had been extremely anxious about the possibility of Buffy getting Roofied from the beginning of the party sequence, so when it finally happens, she's really frazzled.  When Drugged!Buffy heads upstairs, she was all "no, don't do that!  That's the worst possible thing!"

But…haven't we heard that before?

Movie spoilers (Scream series):

Spoiler

Quote

SYDNEY PRESCOTT (on phone, mocking slasher-film tropes): …some stupid blonde girl who always gets killed by running up the stairs instead of out the front door…

Which is exactly  how SMG's character dies in Scream 2 (which Sarah filmed during the break between S1/S2).  Of course, Brunette Sydney does the exact same thing within minutes after that phone call, but she was always meant to survive that attack; it was nothing but a feint.

So…another shout-out, just like the "just a Smidge" line?  Gee, here we'd been suspecting Whedon of having the inappropriate affair with Sarah during S1…

************************

It is nice that, of all the rooms upstairs, Buffy chooses the same one that Cordelia is already in, isn't it? Ah, romance…

(Okay, it's just for script convenience, but still.)

*************************

So, Giles and Willow have discovered that other girls have disappeared, around the same time in previous years.  (Which again, they really should have known before this, but whatever.)

Quote

GILES (hypothesizing):  Perhaps an anniversary or some other date significant to the killer—

WILLOW (panicky):  "Killer"? Now there's a killer?  We don't know that there's a—

GILES:  No, but "this being Sunnydale and all…"

WILLOW: Gulp.

Aww, Willow's still taking Xander's advice (from last episode) and vocalizing her actions.  He told her to say "Shrug" and she later said "Sigh" and now "Gulp".  

Does this mean that Willow is so in love with Xander that she's trying to impress him even when he's not in the room?  Or that she's taken Buffy's advice and has moved on and is trying to seduce Giles by doing stuff that (allegedly) men like?

"Gulp", indeed.

********************

You know, "Linebacker" and "Tackle" may be total jerks ("may be"?) and apparently they're not important enough in the frat to get invited to the rituals (but they know about them because they recognize the cowled robe Xander wears), but at least they're decent enough to give Xander back his polo shirt.

I mean, that was 50/50, at best.  Good for them.

********************

Lexi was all upset that Buffy was "I'll let you know" and "sometime" at the end, with Angel finally asking her for that coffee date.  "Why not now?"

Well, because for Buffy, "coffee" isn't just coffee.  It's a step towards the "stuff" Buffy was telling Willow she'd been dreaming about Angel and her doing.  So, understandably, she'd like their coffee date to be a bit more intimate, as her "stuff" fantasies don't include Willow and Xander being there, apparently.

Prude.  Sorry, kids…you'll just have to hope Buffy films the occasion.  

Spoiler

We'll see next episode that vampires do show up on film, so unfortunately Xillow would get a lot of shots of Angel's butt in this hypothetical, rather than watching Buffy getting "stuffed" by nothing.  Ah, well.  Them's the breaks. 

But I do understand why Xander would much prefer seeing Buffy and Cordelia doing "stuff"…even if he did acknowledge (back in Teacher's Pet) that Angel is "a very attractive man".  Glad he's moved on from that, at least.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

15 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Such a perfect scene.  Never mind the romance possibilities (IMG did a fine job of servicing those), just enjoy how easily these two fit together, the rhythm of their conversation.  Best friends to the end.

I'm right here with ya. And what's interesting, Willow doesn't try to talk Xander out of his decision to follow Buffy. It's as if she knows him being there will end up in gross humiliation of Mr. Harris on one hand or Xander providing the gang with needed information during the episode's climax on the other.
 

Spoiler

15 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Which makes it so ridiculous that they practically stop doing this immediately after

I still hope that sometimes Whedon, Greenwalt, Espenson and others involved grind their freaking teeth whenever they think about Xillow's criminally wasted potential and how having W/X chemistry wasted hurt the series in the long run.

Edited June 9, 2022 by lembergwatcher