Malia Tate: She Used to Run With Cougars

[Gwen-Stacys]

Peter's secret daughter's already got that Hale attitude. All she needs is a leather jacket.   

[galax-arena]

I hope Malia commits patricide. 

[lion10]

I haven't seen this actress since the Secret Circle.

 

I don't get all the Peter hate.  Just cause a man goes on a mass murder spree, kills his niece, and emotionally tortures a young girl doesn't mean he's a bad person.  He's just in a bad situation.  

 

Seriously though, I hope Kate and Peter take each other out.

[galax-arena]

I haven't seen this actress since the Secret Circle.

Heh. IMO she and JPK were the best of the four main girls, and I was annoyed that Britt and Phoebe were the ones who got more attention after TSC instead. Hope that Malia ends up being a good role for Shelley.

[Yitzhak]

Regarding human/werewolf relationships, obviously it was an issue for the daughter of a hunter family to date a werewolf (two werewolves!) but how do you think Peter Hale will feel about his daughter dating a human? 

 

Also I'm wondering if Malia's lack over control over her claws and her changes is going to make sex with Stiles a dangerous activity. Especially considering humans can apparently be turned by a scratch.  

[ElleryAnne]

I love Peter, so I'm hoping that Malia's presence means more time for him.  I'm not crazy about Malia so far, but I'm willing to give her a chance.  I don't like her with Stiles, but just as a character on the canvas she may be fine.  

 

btw - shouldn't that be "coyotes" in the title, rather than "cougars", or is the cougar thing a reference I'm just not placing?

[Carrie Ann]

I thought I'd missed something about cougars too.

[Bitterswete]

I love Peter, so I'm hoping that Malia's presence means more time for him. 

 

I also like Peter, or at least I like the potential of his character. I don't need a character to be a good person in order to find them enjoyable to watch, and I've loved characters who have done far, far worse than anything he has.

 

As long as they don't try to do a "he was just a poor woobie, and none of the bad stuff he did was really his fault" thing with him. I like characters who own their evil deeds, even when they've turned over a new leaf.

 

Now I'm really iffy about the "Malia is Peter's daughter" thing. I'm totally unspoiled, so don't have any idea where the storyline might be going. And, in all honesty, I was really hoping for a surprise twist where someone else would turn out to be his kid. Not because I don't like Malia, but the way it all came about just seemed too neat somehow. But I'll just wait and see how it plays out.

[galax-arena]

I don't need a character to be a good person in order to find them enjoyable to watch,

Neither do I - I mean, I loved Joffrey on Game of Thrones - but Ian Bohen's such an asshole and his acting isn't nearly good enough for me to overlook that, so my view of the actor tends to bleed through to the character. Plus, I never found Peter that enjoyable to watch regardless. He was just...there. Considering how Davis has a propensity for killing off so many of the female villains while letting the male villains live (of course, now Kate's back too...sigh; the man just needs to let characters die and have them stay dead) letting Peter stick around and just be Sassy Uncle Peter sticks in my craw. It's like he's a reminder of how fucked up some of the gender issues are on this show. And it's not like Peter fulfills some sort of super-important role on the team, I don't think we'd lose out on much if he were to die. 

 

Braeden lost some cool points with me when she saved his butt, man. 

 

ANYWAY, bringing this back to Malia since that entire paragraph is OT, I hope the writers develop her so that she has more to do than be Stiles' love interest. Like I know she's Peter's kid so obviously at some point that's going to come into play, but as of 3B at least, her main thing has been with Stiles. I know she's getting a lot of flak from fandom, and I'm not sure if that's because people think she's poorly developed as a character or because she gets in the way of more popular Stiles ships (Sterek of course, and Stydia). 

Edited June 14, 2014 by galax-arena

[Bitterswete]

so my view of the actor tends to bleed through to the character.

 

And I've always been able to totally separate actors from the characters they play. So I can dislike an actor but still really love a character they play. 

 

Anyway, regarding Malia, I don't dislike her. In fact, I found her likable enough in the asylum episode. But on a show where the characters they already have have barely gotten any development to speak of, it feels like they're just introducing new characters to not develop. And, if they do end up developing her more than usual, I'll be wondering why she's getting so much development when characters who've been around longer haven't.

 

Then again, I kind of felt the same about Kira until I actually saw her on the show, and I ended up really liking her and wanting to know more about her. So I might end up feeling the same way about Malia. Maybe.

[lion10]

I'd REALLY like to know how the hell she's a werecoyote.  Human+werewolf = Werecoyote?  Is she weaker than a werewolf because wolves are bigger and stronger than coyotes? 

[Gwen-Stacys]

btw - shouldn't that be "coyotes" in the title, rather than "cougars", or is the cougar thing a reference I'm just not placing?

It was a lame reference to her comment about running from cougars trying to eat her in the season 3B finale. I couldn't think of anything else to put :(

 

But so far, I like what we've seen from the character. And everything they've released about her for season 4 leans more towards the

"they're teaching her how to be a teenager and a shapshifter" more than as a LI for Stiles. Even then, their relationship seems to be him wanting them to DTR and her being meh about it.

 

[ElleryAnne]

It was a lame reference to her comment about running from cougars trying to eat her in the season 3B finale. I couldn't think of anything else to put :(

 

 

OH!  That works, then.  I figured it was probably a reference I couldn't place.  (I haven't rewatched the 3B finale yet.  Too much sadness in the later episodes of that arc.)

 

I hope you're right about what you have under the spoiler code.  I'd like her better that way. :)

[greenbean]

Well, it seems she'll have quite a role in S4. She does have a good rapport with Stiles, so I can buy a romance between them. They're quite well suited actually.

[Gwen-Stacys]

Well, it seems she'll have quite a role in S4. She does have a good rapport with Stiles, so I can buy a romance between them. They're quite well suited actually.

I agree with you on this point! Maybe it's because I know people who hook up on the regular (and sometimes in the strangest places), but I didn't really find her and Stiles' hookup that off the cuff. They already set the precedent for Stiles being more than okay with losing his virginity and it not having to be super special, and that's okay. He and Malia did share something in that basement. He opened up to her, not just about what was going on with him, but how he felt about. She offered no judgment. He probably felt safe with her in that moment and in that situation, and she wanted to do it. /kanye shrug

And I'm not too nervous about her just being a LI. Her character already has more connections to established characters on the show (Peter, Derek, etc). She came in with her own storyline and will probably (as in should) help provide more insight into the Hale family/shape shifter lore as it pertains to this show. We still don't know why Talia took the memory of Malia from Peter. Was he a part of her life? What's the deal with her mother and how much did she know about the Hale family? Was she a Dany (someone who knew about the supernatural but chose to stay out of it)? Why did Malia shift into a coyote and not a wolf? Did that have to do with her mother as well? Why was she able to shift completely (Something we've only seen shifters in the Hale family do and were told that it is actually very rare? Peter wasn't really a full wolf, he was a monster. Malia was a full on coyote, same way Talia was a full on wolf).

Now, do I think Jeff and co will handle her story in that capacity? Nah. But I'm just pointing out that the potential for her character is there

[galax-arena]

Her character already has more connections to established characters on the show (Peter, Derek, etc). 

Well, that's another potential issue for me, honestly. I find the Hales dull as dirt and I absolutely loathe Peter, so I'm not really looking forward to the idea of Malia's presence meaning increased Peter screentime. Unless it leads to Peter's death.

[greenbean]

That's probably my only worry about Malia. I really am not a fan of plots that centre on the Hale family. They're very boring and detract from the show. But I don't mind Peter. He's a good antagonist for everyone, which the show probably needs. Derek is the dull one. How much suffering can one character go through!? He really dragged last season down, and in the coming new episode he's once again captured and being tortured.

 

I think Malia would be better if she weren't connected to the Hales. Other than that, she seems a good fit.

[ElleryAnne]

Maybe it's because I know people who hook up on the regular (and sometimes in the strangest places), but I didn't really find her and Stiles' hookup that off the cuff. They already set the precedent for Stiles being more than okay with losing his virginity and it not having to be super special, and that's okay. He and Malia did share something in that basement. He opened up to her, not just about what was going on with him, but how he felt about. She offered no judgment. He probably felt safe with her in that moment and in that situation, and she wanted to do it.

 

 

The squickiness IMO has nothing to do with it being a casual hook-up.  But the circumstances (Malia's barely back to living as a girl after nearly a decade, and cannot possibly be in an emotionally/psychologically healthy place with what she's been through, Stiles is struggling with keeping the Nogitsune at bay, hasn't slept in who knows how long and doesn't know if he can trust himself, let alone the world around him, etc.) makes that particular hook-up extremely squicky to me.  It's one thing for adults to give consent to random sex with a stranger, but that's not at all what this scene was at all.

 

 I'm also not entirely sure Malia wasn't under some kind of external influence, given her expression at the end of the episode, which only adds to the level of ick in my opinion of that whole hook-up because it lessens her own ability to give consent and may indicate that he was being set up for the Nogitsune to have someone to use as leverage against him in the scenes that come afterward.  

 

And that follow-up to it, which put him in the position of Oliver with the drill and then the Nogitsune demanding to be "let in" to Stiles, both of which have really unpleasant rape parallels in which Stiles is being forced to give (non-)consent in order to protect her, don't do anything to help sell the idea.  Everything about that hook-up and its role in the story just feels so wrong to me.  Obviously, MMV.

 

 

Derek is the dull one.

 

 

Well, I love me some Derek, myself.  But I guess MMV there, as well.  I would appreciate it if they stop torturing him, though.

Edited June 23, 2014 by ElleryAnne

[greenbean]

The squickiness IMO has nothing to do with it being a casual hook-up. But the circumstances (Malia's barely back to living as a girl after nearly a decade, and cannot possibly be in an emotionally/psychologically healthy place with what she's been through, Stiles is struggling with keeping the Nogitsune at bay, hasn't slept in who knows how long and doesn't know if he can trust himself, let alone the world around him, etc.) makes that particular hook-up extremely squicky to me. It's one thing for adults to give consent to random sex with a stranger, but that's not at all what this scene was at all.

So you only want the characters to have wholesome relationships? I see this a lot when people counter possible Sterek. I am in no ways a Sterek fan, but this idea that everyone needs to be in a healthy place before they can have a relationship is pretty erroneous to me. Having emotional or psychological issues, and wanting sex can go hand in hand with many people. And she's a were-coyote, who knows how that effects her sex drive and impulses. The only problem I had with the scene was that it was ill-timed. IIRC, they were in the middle of a tense investigation, so it seemed out of place to suddenly have all this romance. I don't see anything wrong with the possible messed-up-ness of their encounter, just that it probably wasn't the right time. And plus I doubt Jeff will even explore it, which is par for the course with this show.

Edited June 23, 2014 by greenbean

[ElleryAnne]

So you only want the characters to have wholesome relationships?

 

 

Not at all.  Dysfunctional relationships can make for interesting story-telling.  But that doesn't mean I HAVE to like any specific one or risk being ridiculed for not liking it.

[Yitzhak]

 

I didn't really find her and Stiles' hookup that off the cuff. They already set the precedent for Stiles being more than okay with losing his virginity and it not having to be super special, and that's okay. He and Malia did share something in that basement. He opened up to her, not just about what was going on with him, but how he felt about. She offered no judgment. He probably felt safe with her in that moment and in that situation, and she wanted to do it. /kanye shrug

 

Another thing that people never seem to mention - just before the hook up, the Lichtenberg figure on Stiles's back had almost disappeared. This meant Stiles was about to get repossessed and likely be killed. If Stiles thought he was about to die and he was spending his last moments with a pretty werewolf girl who really wanted to have sex with him, I don't think it's out of character or unreasonable that Stiles would reciprocate. As for Malia, it could be she's had plenty of sexual experience in her coyote form and she simply wanted to try sex in her new body. It doesn't make for a magical first time, but I don't imagine either of them felt sexually traumatized by the experience.  

Edited June 24, 2014 by Yitzhak

[ElleryAnne]

This meant Stiles was about to get repossessed and likely be killed. If Stiles thought he was about to die and he was spending his last moments with a pretty werewolf girl who really wanted to have sex with him, I don't think it's out of character or unreasonable that Stiles would reciprocate.

 

 

I don't think Stiles would figure he might as well have sex if he thought he was about to be taken over again by the Nogitsune. It seems more likely that he'd be trying his best to figure out how to prevent the possession from happening instead.  After all, he checked himself into Eichen House because he wanted to keep his friends safe, and because he was horrified by the things the Nogitsune had already had him doing.  (This whole thing was taking place only a couple of days after the bomb, and the knife-twisting into Scott).  I know Stiles would usually be the first to joke about not wanting to die a virgin, but I don't buy that he'd feel much like it just then. That scene, at that time, just doesn't fit. 

Edited June 24, 2014 by ElleryAnne

[Lady Calypso]

In my opinion, I just didn't think it was completely in Stiles' character to lose his virginity to Malia in the middle of the Nogistune drama.We don't really know Malia all that well, so it's easier to say that she could be the kind of person to have sex in a mental asylum. I just don't think Stiles would have immediately gone 'ok, I'm trying to stay sane, trying to keep the Nogistune under control. Let's have sex'. It's just...odd motivation. Stiles may have worried about being a virgin all throughout the series, but despite his gung-ho personality, I don't think he would have sex with anyone just to lose his virginity, unless it was a do-or-die situation, like it was in the Darach arc. Although, I guess I could be wrong but I read Stiles differently. 

 

I just think that the sex scene was not fitting to the current storyline, it didn't quite fit Stiles' character and we barely knew much about Malia and if she had been planned to be a regular since that episode, or before it, then having her sleep with Stiles wasn't the way to make me like her. It's just kind of hard because they've never been so blatant about a couple before to make me root for them (the only other couple is probably Scott/Allison and that's because they were the main leads but have good chemistry from the start).

[FurryFury]

I agree, having sex in that situation was out of character for Stiles and rather gross in general, IMHO. I just don't see him as a type of character to engage in some twisty, dark sexual stuff. But then, the show writers have already shown they're kinda insensitive re: appropriateness when it comes to sex, just remember Derek/Jennifer sex when he was bleeding and nearly dead (ugh).

[galax-arena]

I think the show's intention at least was for them to only have had a makeout session, not full-on sex. Dylan O'Brien said at Alpha Con that the original plan was for them to have sex, but that he convinced Jeff Davis to nix it because he thought it'd be derailing to the rest of the episode.

[Gwen-Stacys]

But despite his gung-ho personality, I don't think he would have sex with anyone just to lose his virginity, unless it was a do-or-die situation, like it was in the Darach arc. Although, I guess I could be wrong but I read Stiles differently. 

He was going to have sex with Heather in episode 2 in season 3 B at the drop of a hat. IDK some people just aren't that hung up on their first time despite just...getting it over with. Stiles has always come off as an open sort of character to me, but....then again this isn't his thread.

 

I think the show's intention at least was for them to only have had a makeout session, not full-on sex. Dylan O'Brien said at Alpha Con that the original plan was for them to have sex, but that he convinced Jeff Davis to nix it because he thought it'd be derailing to the rest of the episode.

His comment was in reference to filming it in it's entirety, he never said that they didn't have sex just that he didn't want to film it.

[Lady Calypso]

He was going to have sex with Heather in episode 2 in season 3 B at the drop of a hat.

 

 

I'm gonna take this over to the Stiles thread.

[greenbean]

Perhaps there should be a separate Malia/Stiles thread?

Not at all.  Dysfunctional relationships can make for interesting story-telling.  But that doesn't mean I HAVE to like any specific one or risk being ridiculed for not liking it.

No one is saying you have to like the relationship, and who is ridiculing you? I don't know why you're turning yourself into a victim.

[ElleryAnne]

No one is saying you have to like the relationship, and who is ridiculing you? I don't know why you're turning yourself into a victim.

 

 

I'm not turning myself into a victim, greenbean.  But your other comment came across as sarcastic and ridiculing.  Frankly, so does this one.  

[Guest]

Hey - everybody put the brakes on.  If you think a post is breaking the Don't Be A Dick rule, please report it instead of airing it in the thread.  Thanks.

[FurryFury]

So you only want the characters to have wholesome relationships? I see this a lot when people counter possible Sterek. I am in no ways a Sterek fan, but this idea that everyone needs to be in a healthy place before they can have a relationship is pretty erroneous to me. Having emotional or psychological issues, and wanting sex can go hand in hand with many people. And she's a were-coyote, who knows how that effects her sex drive and impulses. The only problem I had with the scene was that it was ill-timed. IIRC, they were in the middle of a tense investigation, so it seemed out of place to suddenly have all this romance. I don't see anything wrong with the possible messed-up-ness of their encounter, just that it probably wasn't the right time. And plus I doubt Jeff will even explore it, which is par for the course with this show.

Personally,  I have no problems with dysfunctional relationships when they are actually presented as dysfunctional. I'm not sure that's the case here. It takes a certain subtlety to write a complex dysfunctional relationship, too (and we all know Teen Wolf writing is anything but subtle), and even then it's really hard to let the characters remain themselves and to not pander to shippers. I know a lot of bad examples of such relationships, like, say, in Buffy season 6. On some shows, I've even shipped such pairings. It's kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't thing - I was surprisingly disappointed when my all-time (and pretty messed-up, romance-wise) OTP of Logan/Veronica (Veronica Mars) finally got together for good, because this time, they actually had a good shot at a healthy relationship, and on another show, I was furious when a similarly baggaged couple didn't. But considering that Stiles' endgame pairing is most likely Lydia, I don't see why the writers can't let a romance with Malia run its course, without overly promoting it or anything - just another character development arc for Stiles. Of course, in our age of social media, it would be unthinkable - everything has to be shiny and glamorous and attractive , while all bad squicky stuff, like Malia's mental state and the grossness of the initial hook-up, will be swept under the table.

[greenbean]

But considering that Stiles' endgame pairing is most likely Lydia, I don't see why the writers can't let a romance with Malia run its course, without overly promoting it or anything - just another character development arc for Stiles. Of course, in our age of social media, it would be unthinkable - everything has to be shiny and glamorous and attractive , while all bad squicky stuff, like Malia's mental state and the grossness of the initial hook-up, will be swept under the table.

 

Yeah, I doubt much will be explored. It's S4, unless Jeff leaves, the show is going to continue as is. I would like for them to go there with Malia and Stiles, and there were some hints in this first episode. But Jeff has said he's making the show lighter, so I think their relationship will be more comedic. Which I'm all right with.

 

I agree that Stiles/Lydia are still end game. It's fun to see Stiles with Malia for now.

Edited June 25, 2014 by greenbean

[jhlipton]

I liked her in the season premiere.  She's got "coyote instincts" (and coyotes are one of the least pack-like dog-critters), and it's cute how Stiles takes one of her sociopathic comments as "progress".  At least she'd no longer eat Lydia or Kira before leaving them!

 

I wouldn't mind if she was the one Stiles ended up with.  I like Stiles admitting to himself that Lydia will never love him the way he loved her -- time to move on and be a real friend, not a Nice Guy friend.

Edited June 25, 2014 by jhlipton

[Lady Calypso]

I don't know why it's taking me so long to piece this together, but I think I finally get Malia's purpose on the show. I thought it was so sudden that she would be thrown into a regular cast member status when she's had not much screen time and from what I see, not a huge positive fanbase reaction. This may not be the exact reason, but I think I have a theory about Malia...well, sort of. I'm not positive on this, but I think she is basically Cora Hale 2.0. She shares too many similarities with Cora and I feel like if Adelaide Kane didn't get her show on Reign and if Jeff had her storyline planned out from the beginning, this basically could have been Cora.

 

I guess here are my reasons and the parallels between the two girls:

 

Cora:

• She went 'missing'/presumed to be dead by her whole family for eight years
• When she returned, she was in a feral state, out of control and basically trapped prisoner
• She was thought to have killed people
• Her and Stiles have a connection on the show and I think that's what sparked people to start shipping them
• Cora has to spend some time readjusting into the world after her out of control incident. 
• Well, she is a Hale as well so there's that

 

Malia:

• She went missing eight years ago
• She was in a full wolf state for all this time, out of control and unable to shift back to her human self
• She was also thought to have killed people on purpose, but this case it had been accidents
• Her and Stiles have a sudden connection
• Malia has to spend time readjusting into the real world
• Hey, look at that! Unless it's stated as a red herring, as it actually hasn't been confirmed officially on the show, she's a Hale too

 

There are other points that parallel their stories, but those are the major ones. There are differences, yes, with Malia being a werecoyote and having a harder time readjusting, but if you replace Malia with Cora, this could have easily been Cora's backstory. We don't know where she had been for the years she was presumed dead. It could have been easy to say she had been kidnapped by the Alpha pack and held prisoner back then. She could have been the one in a feral, animalistic state for all these years if Jeff Davis had thought about it back then. If Adelaide had not gone over to the CW, she probably would have been a regular for season 4. Yes, she wouldn't have had this weird 'werecoyote' storyline (most likely not) but it would have made more sense to have her and Kira in the club, going to find Derek. 

 

Malia's presence now makes more sense to me if I think of this theory as completely true. To me, she truly is just Cora 2.0, the character that Jeff screwed up and is trying to correct, the one that 'could have been', so to speak. Their personalities may also be a bit similar.

[ElleryAnne]

I think she is basically Cora Hale 2.0.

 

 

I agree completely.  I also think both Cora and Malia are JD's attempt to create a female version of Derek so that he can try to build a hetero version of a Sterek relationship.  And because this is at least his second attempt to do so, he's investing less time in making her a credible and well-written character, and instead he's just tossing her into the mix and hoping everyone will love her. 

 

She's also a Mary Sue.

 

I feel bad that JD keeps trying to create characters only to have the actors bail on him (by my count, there have been about a half-dozen who have), but I don't think it excuses him from still needing to write each new character well, and I don't think he does so with Malia. 

[galax-arena]

I don't think Malia is a Mary Sue at all; she's not a particularly well developed character right now, but she's not a Mary Sue. IMO the term "Mary Sue" is overused, especially when it comes to female characters.

To me, she truly is just Cora 2.0, the character that Jeff screwed up and is trying to correct, the one that 'could have been', so to speak. Their personalities may also be a bit similar.

Probably. Adelaide Kane did say in an interview that Cora was meant to be the one to punch Stiles' V card, lol. Edited June 27, 2014 by galax-arena

[ElleryAnne]

She ticks off a whole hell of a lot of the boxes for a Mary Sue, especially given that she IS a poorly-developed character so far.  She's got the unexpected tie to a main family, she's been dropped in as a love interest to a main character (and in this case, the character that's JD's clear favorite), she's got the special/rare abilities, her so-called "flaws" are meant to be endearing to the audience,  she's even got the exotic name.   Within the next few episodes, we'll probably see all of the other main characters practically falling in love with her.  And yet she'll probably still be a poorly-developed character - just one that everyone will fawn over.

Edited June 27, 2014 by ElleryAnne

[caseylane]

I agree completely.  I also think both Cora and Malia are JD's attempt to create a female version of Derek so that he can try to build a hetero version of a Sterek relationship.  And because this is at least his second attempt to do so, he's investing less time in making her a credible and well-written character, and instead he's just tossing her into the mix and hoping everyone will love her. 

 

I don't think she's a Mary Sue but I totally agree with the above paragraph. So far Sterek has outshipped every other ship on this show combined. JD seems to be pretty desperate to shift that elsewhere.

[Yitzhak]

 

To me, she truly is just Cora 2.0,

 

I'd also add that I think Cora was Erica 2.0, especially in the way she was switched in a prisoner of the Alpha Pack with Boyd. There were also hints of Stiles/Erica shipping with Erica revealing that she used to have a crush on Stiles. I think for a long time JD has been wanting to have a female werewolf as a main character and he's wanted to pair the lead werewolf girl with Stiles. And not as a hetero Sterek (I don't get the impression the writers are concerned about pandering to Sterek fandom these days) but as a reverse of the Scott/Alison pairing where it was a boy werewolf with girl human pairing. Personally I still think the writers will go back to Stiles/Lydia in the end after Stiles has experience with another girl. There's an obvious exit strategy they can use if they want to end the Stiles/Malia ship - simply have Malia deciding she wanted to return to her coyote form and go back to the wild kingdom. 

Edited June 27, 2014 by Yitzhak

[jhlipton]

There's an obvious exit strategy they can use if they want to end the Stiles/Malia ship - simply have Malia deciding she wanted to return to her coyote form and go back to the wild kingdom.

Or, they could decide that they're just not right for each other and remain allies and friends, but not lovers. Oh, who am I kidding.. adult relationships on Teen Wolf? It is to laugh -- ha ha!

 

BTW, I would hate for Stiles to wind up with Lydia as some kind of reward.  She would have to have some major change in her personality to see him as more than a friend, and I totally don't want that.

Edited June 28, 2014 by jhlipton

[patchwork]

I'd also add that I think Cora was Erica 2.0, especially in the way she was switched in a prisoner of the Alpha Pack with Boyd. There were also hints of Stiles/Erica shipping with Erica revealing that she used to have a crush on Stiles. I think for a long time JD has been wanting to have a female werewolf as a main character and he's wanted to pair the lead werewolf girl with Stiles. And not as a hetero Sterek (I don't get the impression the writers are concerned about pandering to Sterek fandom these days) but as a reverse of the Scott/Alison pairing where it was a boy werewolf with girl human pairing. Personally I still think the writers will go back to Stiles/Lydia in the end after Stiles has experience with another girl. There's an obvious exit strategy they can use if they want to end the Stiles/Malia ship - simply have Malia deciding she wanted to return to her coyote form and go back to the wild kingdom. 

 

Malia is the third attempt at whatever this storyline is. I wont be surprised if it's to get Stiles to werewolf status and for him to have his first girlfriend die tragically. Though maybe fridging Malia wont happen because of Allison. She might go darkside thanks to Kate or Peter and skip town instead.

 

But however Malia/Stiles ends I'm pretty sure Stiles/Lydia are the endgame. Then again I did used to say the same thing about Scott and Allison... 

[caseylane]

I don't think JD has ever pandered to the Sterek fans. I think he was caught unaware and didn't know what to do. He has had a plot in mind for female were/Stiles since season 1 and Malia is attempt #3. I just hope it's worth all of the rebooting he's had to do. I too am, and have always been, convinced that Stiles/Lydia is end game and Malia is just a tool to maybe give Stiles sexual experience, confidence and angst before Lydia "wakes up" so to speak.

[ElleryAnne]

I don't think JD has ever pandered to the Sterek fans.

 

 

He hasn't pandered.  He's baited, which is an entirely different problem.  But with his own Mary Sue Malia, he's trying to recreate Sterek chemistry using a hetero relationship as a proxy.

 

 

He has had a plot in mind for female were/Stiles since season 1

 

 

Has he ever said this anywhere?  Not trying to challenge you, I'm just curious.  I usually keep track of what he's said and I hadn't heard that before.  

[caseylane]

I don't know of any place he's said he's had a plane for Female were/Stiles, but bringing in 3 were females and and having 1) a crush, 2) a mouth-to-mouth event referencing the next time and 3) Malia thinking Stiles is her mate tells me this is the third try. There has to be a reason for that.

[greenbean]

It came up when people were complaining about Erica and Boyd not being used enough. IIRC both Jeff and Christian spoke about Stiles/Erica a few times.
 
A quick duckduckgo produces
 

Davis tells us. Those powerful moments between Stiles and Lydia will have lasting impact. In fact, the writers had originally intended for Erica to be Stiles’ new love interest, but they course-corrected in favor of more Stiles/Lydia moments this season.

“We felt it out in terms of the story. We knew that we wanted the scene at the end of 11 where Stiles is on the field and Lydia is finally the one cheering for him,” Davis tells us. “It felt like that was a better moment to build to than the possibility of Stiles and Erica. You start to see which actors have the best chemistry with each other, and we felt like Gage had more chemistry with other characters, including Sinqua, actually, so to see them holding hands in one of the last episodes felt more right to me.”

I still say Erica and Boyd should have run off to the city, and become the city branch of the McCall pack instead of being killed off.
 

but as a reverse of the Scott/Alison pairing where it was a boy werewolf with girl human pairing.

Agreed. I think Jeff has played with this when writing Scott and Stiles, but he's always been looking to reverse parallel Scott/Allison since the beginning. With Stiles/Lydia being end game. I think Jeff also wants a female were-whatever in Scott's pack. So Stiles/Malia and Malia herself isn't really out of nowhere for me. It's like the third try at this, after Gage and Adelaide leaving.

 

I think in the end Malia works out best. I did like Erica, but agree with Jeff that she didn't have much chemistry with Stiles. Cora's whole backstory was too unbelievable and she didn't fit into the pack.

 

There's a much better premise for Malia and Scott building a rapport, and Scott being her Alpha than with the others. He's helping her with her were-form, and hopefully she'll help him. So that's a big reason why I think she's now part of the main cast.

[Gwen-Stacys]

Please explain to me how Malia is a Mary Sue in terms of what a Mary Sue truly is and not just because she's an underdeveloped character, which is an unfair assessment given that she's barely been in 2 episodes! Most characters are face value in the first two episodes. We're still learning their backgrounds (without taking away from the main character, which is still Scott...who we're still learning little bits and pieces about his background as well.). The only character that tolerates Malia, as of right now, is Stiles. Everyone else is either confused about her (Kira), visibly annoyed by her (Lydia), or exasperated with her (Scott when she suggests leaving Lydia behind). In order for her to be a Mary Sue, characters would have to be uncharacteristically falling over themselves in regards to her and they're not. Her confusions are being played off as funny because it is funny to some people (not saying most, because I dislike bold statements like that. I don't know all 2.1 million people who watch this show. And I'm fairly certain that less than 10% of that 2 million make up the online fandom.). That's a common fish-out-of-water trope, if you wanna put a trope-label on her.

 

She is, at this point, a background figure to the others. Another helping hand in their goal of finding/saving Derek. For her to be a Mary Sue, they'd be constantly pausing in their efforts to correct her, or help her, or teach her and they're not. Stiles is taking the time to do it...as they go along. He's correcting her in the moment and that's because he's chosen to/connected with her back in season 3. (And I know for some people, that connection isn't realistic, but until you've been in a situation where you feel like your helpless and alone and find someone who's just as lost as you are in that moment and understands you to some degree better than anyone else can, you won't understand how fast "connections" like that can be made.)

 

Let's see how TVtropes.org defines a Mary Sue:

 

The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an 1)idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment. 2)She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. 3)She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, 4)and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. 5)She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing.

 

1) I highly doubt that Malia is a self-insert for Jeff or any of the other writers....

 

2) No offense, but Shelley Hennig is your run-of-the-mill beautiful/gorgeous former CW actress. You could say Holland Roden (Lydia) is more exotic than she is with her red hair and light eyes. Malia has brown hair and big Disney princess brown eyes. And Malia is not an exotic name for an African-American female (me) who grew up in an African-American community (well...mixed. But most of my family is black). I grew up knowing plenty of Malias (it's an African name that means Queen) and this was before Malia Obama's father became president.

 

3). Malia has displayed no talent that we have seen except the ability to be able to go full coyote. And that could be explained as being a Hale family trait. So while unusual, isn't that far-fetched if we're to believe her father is truly Peter Hale.

 

4). See number 3.

 

5). All of her flaws, so far, are relevent to her story-arc as a girl who spent 8-years of her life being a coyote. She's blunt to a fault and that's not seen as endearing to any of the other characters (see Scott's frustrated and appalled "We're not leaving Lydia") except maybe Stiles. And I think he's more amused than anything really. And sometimes scared (like when she ran off after the Bezerker and he thought she was just....running off.)

 

6). And extra point number 6, she is not just a love interest! She has a story arc that will go beyond Stiles and has already. She was introduced as a young girl who was in a car accident with her mother and sister, whose body was presumed to be dragged off and eaten by animals. Then it turned out she was the animal and was directly responsible for the death of her family. Scott forced her back to her human form and she was rightfully resentful. Nobody asked her if she wanted to be human, they just assumed (hence why she punched Stiles in the face). Even after re-meeting Stiles, she wasn't a love interest. She was a girl going into a mutually beneficial partnership. Then she connected with Stiles and, after he sacrificed his body for her life/mental well-being, she went to search for him and the one he said could help her become a coyote again. In season 3 we left off with her being taught by Scott while Stiles spectated. Two months later, she's in Mexico with the Scooby Gang helping them find Derek. And she's still not in a relationship with Stiles, as Dylan and Jeff and Shelley have said numerous times.

 

In conclusion, you can say that Malia is an underdeveloped character, because right now she is, but she is in no way a Mary Sue in the truest definition of a Mary Sue. If she's a Mary Sue then Lydia's a Mary Sue. Kira's a Mary Sue. And Allison was a marry Sue (may she rest in peace).

[FurryFury]

The thing that makes a Mary Sue is how other characters treat her. And the TVTropes definition is of the classic trope, it did evolve/change since then.

Kira's definitely not a Mary Sue - too little screentime/focus, no character (and not the show itself as well) is treating her especially good, and she isn't too good with her skills. I still haven't seen 4x01, so I'm judging on 3B, mind you. Malia also doesn't seem that sueish to me, though. But she is much closer to the trope - sudden family/romantic connections to important characters (Kira/Scott was developed in a much more organic way, and she isn't anyone's relative), promotion to main cast after only two major appearances (Kira's been here for much longer), shoved into the main setting (high school) without much thought of logic (she should have probably spent months, if not years, in counseling/with tutors before getting into school).

[Gwen-Stacys]

The thing that makes a Mary Sue is how other characters treat her. And the TVTropes definition is of the classic trope, it did evolve/change since then.

Kira's definitely not a Mary Sue - too little screentime/focus, no character (and not the show itself as well) is treating her especially good, and she isn't too good with her skills. I still haven't seen 4x01, so I'm judging on 3B, mind you. Malia also doesn't seem that sueish to me, though. But she is much closer to the trope - sudden family/romantic connections to important characters (Kira/Scott was developed in a much more organic way, and she isn't anyone's relative), promotion to main cast after only two major appearances (Kira's been here for much longer), shoved into the main setting (high school) without much thought of logic (she should have probably spent months, if not years, in counseling/with tutors before getting into school).

I would still say that the high school part is probably due to poor writing/them just wanting her to be included in the group. (IRL she wouldn't be in class with them. She's either be in a special school or in a Special Ed curriculum so she still gets to socialize with her peers while learning at her level.) But going off of your "how everyone treats her" definition, I agree with you that she's not a Mary Sue. Is her background story convenient? Yea. Same was Kira's was as a Kitsune when the big bad of the season was the Nogitsune that her mother (who looked exactly like her 50 years ago) summoned and never really got around to taking out. Not to mention that she and her family came to town around the time that the Nogitsune came back to town. So while she had no concrete connections, she was given a family background that made her integral to the group for her introduction season.

[ElleryAnne]

Please explain to me how Malia is a Mary Sue in terms of what a Mary Sue truly is and not just because she's an underdeveloped character, which is an unfair assessment given that she's barely been in 2 episodes!

 

In my post above, I linked to two fairly well-known internet definitions of the term, but in case it wasn't clear in those, here are the typical traits of a Mary Sue:

 

1 - A Mary Sue tends to be a poorly written character dropped into the mix who;

2 -  is usually dropped into the story (generally front and center) as a love interest or other significant attachment for one of the main characters - generally for the author/creator's favorite character (and yes, it can easily be argued that Stiles is a favorite of Jeff's based on things he's said over the years in interviews);

3 - and tends to have an unexpected relationship to one of the show's main families (surprise, Peter Hale's got a daughter!);

4 - and tends to have special abilities, and/or is extremely smart, popular, etc.;

5 - and tends to be loved by all of the main characters, and if she isn't, is usually portrayed that the other character is at fault in some way for not adoring her (eta: meant to add that JD has already mentioned in interviews that Scott and Stiles will love Malia, and so he's hoping the fans will, too);

6 - A Mary Sue tends to be quickly accepted by the core group of friends.

7 - and tends to be exotically beautiful, and often has an exotic or unusual name, unusual hair or eye color, etc.

8 - and often has a dramatic and unusual backstory.  (D'uh.)

 

There are more traits, but those pretty much sum it up.  And with the exception of #5, Malia fits all the criteria.  Give her two more episodes and I bet you'll see #5 applies as well.  (And yes, I think Malia still counts as a relatively exotic/unusual name by TV/book standards.  There are a few, but it's not common like Allison or Jennifer.  It's a more common name in Hawaii (my cousin's married to a woman named Malia), but it doesn't count as common overall just yet.)

 

 

If she's a Mary Sue then Lydia's a Mary Sue. Kira's a Mary Sue. And Allison was a marry Sue (may she rest in peace).

 

 

Not at all.  Lydia, Allison and even Kira have been introduced and developed more slowly, and their ties within the show are more genuine.  Malia's the one who was dropped in from on high with the surprise relationship to a central family, and who, with little backstory beyond the were-creature since 8yr old stuff, is being placed in the role of love interest to Jeff Davis' favorite character.  Malia is a Mary Sue.   Lydia, Kira and Allison are not.  

 

It came up when people were complaining about Erica and Boyd not being used enough. IIRC both Jeff and Christian spoke about Stiles/Erica a few times.

 

 

Yeah, I've seen things like that comment.  What I was wondering is if, as far back as S1, he stated specifically that he wanted to match Stiles up with a female were-whatever.  Not Erica specifically, especially since he admits he changed his mind on that one.  I want to know if it was part of his plan at the beginning to put Stiles with a female were-being.  No problem if there's no quote, since he may not have specifically planned it.  I just wanted to know if anyone was aware of such a quote.

 

 

I still say Erica and Boyd should have run off to the city, and become the city branch of the McCall pack instead of being killed off.

 

 

That would have been so much better.  I will never NOT hate JD for killing off Boyd and Erica.

 

 

And she's still not in a relationship with Stiles, as Dylan and Jeff and Shelley have said numerous times.

 

 

She sees herself as his mate.  She may not be currently (as in, within the two months or so since Eichen House) having sex with him, but her relationship with Stiles is definitely being played as the potential love interest, whether or not they're having sex.   They even mirrored the Stiles/Lydia kiss with Stiles/Malia when she was trying to focus.  And there's the fact that she's Cora 2.0, who herself was only there to build a safe white heterosexual version of Sterek. There's no question she's meant to be the role of love interest.

Edited June 30, 2014 by ElleryAnne

[Yitzhak]

 

1) I highly doubt that Malia is a self-insert for Jeff or any of the other writers....

 

Considering Jeff is a gay man it'd be fairer to accuse him of Mary Sue-ing (or Gary Stu-ing) if he gave Stiles a male love interest. I don't think Jeff has any desire to insert himself into his own story and I don't think he fantasizes about being Stiles's werewolf girlfriend. I trust that Jeff is a grown up and a professional. Mary Sue's are usually the creation of young fans who want to be part of their favorite fictional universe and/or the fictional lover of their favorite TV character. That's the essential part of what a Mary Sue is - an idealized author insert. All the other factors are just reoccurring themes in typical Mary Sues, not the qualities that make them a Mary Sue.

 

So no, I don't see Malia as Jeff's author insert or in any way a Mary Sue either (she may turn out to be very morally dubious especially if she gets involved with Peter's power plays). As others have said to me it seems like Malia is a rushed on replacement for Cora and Erica. Jeff has clearly wanted a female were-creature on the show for a while. If he's rushed Malia into show regular status then maybe it's because his last two female werewolf guest stars jumped ship before he could get them into more permanent contracts.      

Edited June 30, 2014 by Yitzhak