Fosse/Verdon - General Discussion

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Michelle Williams is pregnant and engaged to Fosse/Verdon’s Thomas Kail

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Golden Globe Award!

Best performance by an actress in a limited series or a motion picture made for television

Michelle Williams, "Fosse/Verdon"

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Michelle's acceptance speech:

 

[alexvillage]

I don't watch award shows and didn't know it was yesterday but just saw the speech and it was really good. 

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Critics' Choice Award!

Best Actress in a Limited Series or Movie Made for Television – Michelle Williams

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Two SAG Awards!

Outstanding Performance by a Male Actor in a Television Movie or Miniseries - Sam Rockwell
Outstanding Performance by a Female Actor in a Television Movie or Miniseries - Michelle Williams

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Thomas Kail to direct new Fiddler on the Roof

[Inquisitionist]

7 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Thomas Kail to direct new Fiddler on the Roof

Interesting.  This is one of my favorite musicals!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Ann Reinking has died

[possibilities]

I don't know why I didn't watch this when it first aired. I saw it on my DVR today and realized that I recorded it at the time, but never watched it? Something must be wrong with me.

I watched the first 2 episodes today, so I'm long past when everyone's moved on, but will put in my 2 cents anyway. 

RE the non-linear storytelling: it's not my favorite style, and I agree it's confusing. I don't know most of the details of their lives, but many shows that do this are not even about real people and so NO ONE knows the details of what is being seen and how it fits together. The way I approach a story told in this way is to not try to make sense of the linearity of it on first viewing, but look at it like assembling a jigsaw puzzle. You get one piece, you look it over, eventually you see how it fits with another piece, you keep going, and eventually you see the whole thing.

I also think it can be experienced as a mystery, that builds suspense. If you don't know the story, you kind of have to wait and see where it's going.

If you DO know the story, I actually think the non-linear way it's told means you have to not think of it as teaching you what happened, and instead think of it as imagining the hidden elements and details that were not really vividly known in the public sphere (even if the show is making some of it up), or savoring the known parts as you recall them.

The 1970s were all the things people upthread said they were, but they were also the era of disco. It wasn't all serious and gritty. There was also some escapism going on, and some shimmer and bright lights.

I find the personal melodrama of Fosse/Verdon's marriage to be seriously irritating. I have seen this kind of story so many times I really don't think there's anything more to say about that dynamic, it's boring to me, and I don't find it compelling. I get that a lot of relationships are dysfunctional, boring to outsiders, and basically sickening, but I don't really get anything out of seeing it. It seems to be a favorite of people who make shows, so I guess there's an audience for it. And I get that if it's based on a true story, it will have to be mentioned. But I find it tedious and annoying. I don't think they're offering any insight to that kind of bullshit, it's just a retread of every other relationship of the sort, at least so far. 

On the other hand, I do enjoy watching the parts of the show that are about them choreographing together. 

So far, it looks like what Bobby likes about Gwen is that she gives his career life. I agree with others who have no idea what she likes about him, but in my experience, chemistry can be all it takes to get someone hooked, and there's not always much logic to chemistry.

RE "what is his wife's illness?" I also had no idea. I never would have guessed diabetes. I thought it was multiple sclerosis, which can cause both urinary incontinence and intermittent paralysis. It looked to me like a scene I saw in "Hillary and Jackie" which was not about Clinton and Kennedy-Onassis, but about two sisters with those names, one of whom was a concert musician with MS who was portrayed in one scene to wet herself involuntarily right before she was about to go on stage. Though I have to ask myself: if you have a medical condition that causes unpredictable incontinence, why wouldn't you wear an adult diaper or other absorbent garment as a precaution? I guess it makes a less interesting movie if you can't show women being humiliated and unprepared for predictable events so that a man can rescue them, and thus slightly redeem himself despite his generally terrible behavior.

Looking forward to the next episode, despite my irritation with some of the tropes. I like this style of choreography more than a lot of what we see nowadays.

Edited July 31, 2021 by possibilities

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, possibilities said:

RE "what is his wife's illness?" I also had no idea. I never would have guessed diabetes. I thought it was multiple sclerosis, which can cause both urinary incontinence and intermittent paralysis. It looked to me like a scene I saw in "Hillary and Jackie" which was not about Clinton and Kennedy-Onassis, but about two sisters with those names, one of whom was a concert musician with MS who was portrayed in one scene to wet herself involuntarily right before she was about to go on stage. Though I have to ask myself: if you have a medical condition that causes unpredictable incontinence, why wouldn't you wear an adult diaper or other absorbent garment as a precaution? I guess it makes a less interesting movie if you can't show women being humiliated and unprepared for predictable events so that a man can rescue them, and thus slightly redeem himself despite his generally terrible behavior.

Yeah, you'd think this would be especially true for women since I assume incontinence is not all that uncommon for them. That is, it just seems like something childbirth might cause. So yeah, it really does seem like it's a set up to give the man a chance to be a hero, even though other women probably help out with this sort of thing much more regularly without fanfare since menstruation can cause similar problems. Nobody's going to get ready for a special concert like that without thinking about it.

[possibilities]

Binged my way through the rest of the episodes.

I thought the actress who played the older-looking Nicole was a dead ringer for a shorter Aya Cash. I kept wondering if it was her actual real life daughter or something. Does anyone know if they are in any way related?

Much is made about how Bob worked himself to death, but I find that to be a laughable analysis. He was chain smoking, constantly drinking, snorting coke, and also taking not only Dilantin for seizures, but also Dexedrine and Seconal. The combination of booze and pills is in itself likely to kill you. A person with a heart condition who smokes like a chimney is headed for more "events". He had the opportunity to address his mental health issues, but begged Gwen to get him out of the program so he could go back to avoidance, work, and multiple addictions. I don't really think working was his biggest health issue.

I also think that the sympathy for him due to his childhood, while fair, is also a sexist trope. Men get the "poor guy, what a tragic story, no wonder he is the way he is" response. Meanwhile, we were shown that Gwen was raped, forced to MARRY her rapist, carry the pregnancy resulting from the rape, AND her husband was also a non-functioning alcoholic, forcing her to also become the family breadwinner when she was a teenager. And her parents called her, essentially, a disgusting slut, had no sympathy for her, and abused her just as much as Bob's horrible parents. But outside the one episode where we're shown her childhood, no one in the show or watching it seems to even remember this about her, or care, or use it as a way to understand or be sympathetic to Gwen the way Bob's horrible backstory is treated.

Also, Bob's chronic horribleness is "well, yeah, he's terrible, but he's such a genius! and all the dudes were just as bad, it was just the way things were back then!" and Gwen's behavior, whenever she acts badly, is "well, she's terrible, too, isn't she! she's exploiting him! like so many other women who take advantage of the opportunity to be raped in order to get parts!" [and there's no "but she's such a talent!" tacked on after the criticism].

I don't think it's true that guys need to be charming in order for them to get girlfriends or jobs or even generic friendships. We all know obnoxious dudes with a posse, a crop of hangers on, and who get laid on the regular. Add to that his fame, professional skills, and that he does know how to "act nice" and "say what you want to hear" when he feels like it, and I don't think it's true that the show is lacking credibility by not making Bobby charming enough to explain his popularity.

Someone upthread said they thought that in the hospital, Ann didn't want to have sex because Bob looked like a sick old man to her, and it turned her off. Fwiw, I didn't get that interpretation from that scene. I saw it as she knew it wasn't wise. She was always expressing concern about his health and she wouldn't have given him drugs at that moment, either. It was medically contraindicated. But she gave in because he insisted. I thought her reluctance was because she did care about him and was being reasonable, not because she was revolted and didn't really love him. Though it could have been both. He was a mess. 

I was surprised tp find out he had epilepsy. I wonder about all the flashing lights and even some of the staccato choreography he did. It's interesting. 

I don't know enough to know or even have an opinion about what elements of the series were accurate and what was artistic fudging. But I enjoyed watching.

 

Edited August 1, 2021 by possibilities

[Inquisitionist]

Great insights, possibilities!  Thanks for sharing.

As I posted way back when:

Quote

I learned recently from a Fosse family member that heart trouble ran deep in the family with many dying at younger ages than Bob.  So maybe his dancing kept him alive longer...

 

[Macbeth1966]

Well I am many years late to the party.  I am very glad Michelle Williams won many awards for this role.  I think this maybe the 1st role I ever saw her in.

This was a brilliant show.

Been a fan of Fosse for a couple of decades.  Didn't want to see this for reasons I really don't remember 5 years ago. I just watched it now as I got a subscription to Hulu.

There is one piece of information that I know, re who Fosse was looking for to play Fosse for All That Jazz. And that actor was Paul Newman.  Of course Fosse would want someone of Paul Newman's stature to play him.  

But Newman kept turning him down.  And here is his quote re: why:

"Yes. I turned down 'All That Jazz,' which was a great mistake. I didn't think the character [which won Ray Scheider an Oscar nomination last year] was redeemable. And, of course, I didn't take Bob Fosse [the director] into consideration. It was a dumb, dumb mistake!"

 

Brilliant show.  So I glad I watched it.