S07.E17: Lies My Parents Told Me

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; All the flashback sequences are wonderful. Great to see the real Dru on the show again, love her expression when Spike talks of bringing his mum with them. Possibly the worst introduction of any new girlfriend to a prospective mother-in-law in history? The Wood/Giles and Spike/Woods scenes are awesome.

The Bad; Spike deciding to leave Nikki alone for a while after finding her beggars belief, couldn't they have had a police car pull up or something? Or was Spike worried about messing up his hair? No real comparison between Joyce and Nikki, Joyce died of natural causes, although heartbreaking for Buffy and Dawn there was no one to blame, it was just her time. Unsouled Spike hunted down and murdered Nikki for fun!

Best line; Buffy (to Giles); "I think you've taught me everything I need to know" Ooooohhhhhh!

Women good/men bad; At the end of the ep Buffy shares a moment of intimacy with Dawn in bed then closes the door on Giles. The implication is that she chooses her literal and metaphorical sister(s) over her father figure?

Kinky dinky; Spike tells Nikki he's going to 'ride her hard'. She responds that he's 'wet and limp'. Xander bemoans the fact that Spike's chains weren't there last week when he and Anya had their breakup sex. Dru refers to Spike as 'sweet Willy' whilst he describes her as saucy.

Captain Subtext; Needless to say a lot of people speculate on an incestuous attraction between Spike and his mum. I don't buy that, I think William is just a devoted son to his loving mother, even soulless Spike is horrified at her suggestion. I'm quite prepared to accept Connor having sex with Cordy, that Ares may be Xena's dad, even the fan theory that Buffy and Dawn find solace with one another's at the end of Forever etc but not this. Maybe Spike's mum is jealous of Drusilla whom she refers to as 'That trollop'. Note Dru calls herself Spike's 'Other mummy'. Check out her little look as Spike stakes her, almost of relief/affection? Could she have been goading Spike into killing her? Speaking of Oedipal implications Wood tells Buffy that she reminds him of his mother. Interestingly whilst most girls would consider that a turn off, she seems to rather like the idea. According to the commentary Spike's mum is called 'Anne' which of course is Buffy's middle name. Upon seeing Spike's relationship with his own mother I think we all understand his feelings for Joyce a lot better.

Andrew thinks Fred sounds 'effeminate'. In a Freudian slip Buffy substitutes 'prophylactic' for 'prokaryote' in regard to Spike.

Guantanamo Bay; Calculating general Giles wishes to kill Spike out of logic. Wood by contrast know's it's wrong but acts because his mother's love is more powerful than all reason. Giles acts increasingly like Travers/the Watcher's Council like Buffy in Potential, giving her girls their own Cruciantenam.

Questions and observations; Buffy is now willing to sacrifice Dawn to save the world. Because Dawn's older or because Buffy knows there's a heaven? Probably the latter as she says it after Giles remarks about what she's been through (death/afterlife). She regards death as the reward for being human, the big dessert at the end of the meal. Dawn is no longer her sole focus? She comments Dawn is 'tough'. Spike retains some of his humanity as a vampire (as the Judge senses in Becoming pt1), perhaps because of Dru's link to the PTB? When his mum is sick Spike suggests fetching Dr Gull, Queen Victoria's physician and a popular suspect for Jack the Ripper. Willow receives her phonecall from Fred in the Angel ep 'Orpheus'. Buffy still feels bad about how she treated everyone in 'Get it done', her punishment by the Shadowmen actually benefiting her by bringing her to her senses in that regard, she's not so hardass any more. We really do have bad boy Spike back here, the guy we know from seasons 2-4 but playing for the good guys. But deep down he'll always be William the Bloody (awful poet). He knew Buffy was in the light and he in the darkness. If he pulled her into the darkness he wouldn't love her anymore so he pulls himself into the light instead (with thanks to White Avenger from Buffyboards) Nikki speaks of Robin liking playing with the 'Spooky doodas' at her Watcher's house. Does she mean the Shadow puppets we see in 'Get it Done'? It speaks of Buffy's prowess as a Slayer that she can toy so effortlessly with the vamp whilst Giles talks to her. Does Spike mean what he says about not caring for Nikki or is this just revenge for his beating? Note both Spike and Angel(us) killed their mothers. Also although we don't see her use it Spike's mum has a wheelchair, no wonder he so hated being stuck in one in season 2.

So who's right? You understand Wood's point, imagine if Spike had killed Joyce and went around wearing her coat as a trophy? Would anything on earth stop Buffy staking him? Or would he wake up on fire as Dawn promised? Again Wood is very similar to Holtz on Angel or Callisto on Xena. Note that Wood realises that souled Spike ISN'T the man who killed Nikki, he has to play 'Early one morning' to bring him out. Rare to have 2 eps with such a similar theme (Andrew and Spike's flashback filled redemption) in a row but it works fine.

Marks out of 10; 10/10 brilliant!

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Marks out of 10; 10/10 brilliant!

Just a reminder:  when you give an episode 10/10, you are essentially saying that you find no episode of the entire series significantly better than this one.  As before, I admire your iconoclasm.  Or perhaps your supply of hallucinogens?

This actually isn't as bad as some of the other shit, because it has a functional structure.  But it's still shit, seeing as the "climax" is Buffy telling Robin that she'd endorse Spike's murdering him.  Could the Judge burn Buffy at this point?  Because clearly "there's no humanity in [her]" any more.

William/Spike continues to be a fucking embarrassment to any decent vampire.  If we didn't know that Drusilla was already insane when she sired him, you'd think that being around this pathetic mama's vamp was what drove her around the bend.

And, once again, my "favorite" statistic from Season Seventh Circle of Hell, the number of lines of dialogue spoken by all of the human beings in the main cast in this episode:

• Willow has six lines of dialogue.

• Dawn has three lines of dialogue.  One of which is "Ow".

• Xander has two lines of dialogue.  One of which is, appropriately enough, "Nothing."

• Anya has a grand total of one line of dialogue.  Which she has to deliver while wearing an ugly-ass swim cap on her head.

Total dialogue for every human being in the opening credits:  12 lines of dialogue.  Roughly the equivalent of, say, one Library scene, back in the day.  But we don't let humans interact any more; there's only St. Sunkencheeks, his groupie/fucktoy, and the Mean People who want to hurt him for being a mass-murderer.  Waaaaah!

(Picking an almost random scene from the early seasons [the "Cordelia's much better for you than Angel" walk-and-talk from Reptile Boy], I find that in that scene, Xander has 7 lines and Willow has 6.  One scene.  Two characters.  More work for the supporting cast than an entire episode's worth, here.)

By the way, doesn't this episode rather ruin the "Dawn is so precious to Buffy" theory?  What with Buffy being willing to let Dawn die and not even bothering to check on Dawnie's possible head trauma, even when Spike points it out.  I mean, she does use Dawn as an excuse for blowing off Giles at the episode's end, but I'd be more convinced she was an actual caring sister if she hadn't taken the better part of the day to check in on the Dawnster…

Oh, and there's no reason it should have taken us four fucking episodes to get here, anyhow.  "Wood wants to kill Spike" should have been a once-off, not a four-episode bore-fest.  I mean, we already had one of those (Sleeper through Show Time) earlier in the season.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

6 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

At the end of the ep Buffy shares a moment of intimacy with Dawn in bed then closes the door on Giles. The implication is that she chooses her literal and metaphorical sister(s) over her father figure?

No. The implication is that Buffy chooses her annoying vampiric boyfriend over her friends, her father figure and everyone else. 
 

6 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Marks out of 10; 10/10 brilliant!

When the supposed champion of humanity and mankind's protector says she'd let the vampire kill a human being, something is definitely wrong with Buffy and the show for that matter. That's like sending Robin a message: "I don't give a fuck about your mother!" Wonderful heroine she is, our Buffy...  

Edited November 20, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Jack Shaftoe]

You know an episode is shit when it portrays Spike as some sort of ultimate pathetic mama's boy and I still hate it.

The entire plot relies on everyone taking a healthy dose of the stupid pills. Buffy and Spike for insisting Spike is no longer triggered (and for not giving a damn about the trigger in the previous episodes), Giles for going with Wood's dumb plan to kill Spike (if Giles wanted Spike dead he would have killed himself, not come up with some ridiculous plan to distract Buffy as if killing Spike must inevitably take hours), Wood for coming up with said plan. And let's not forget about the First who so far hasn't done anything with Spike's trigger rather than having him kill a bunch of random people for no apparent reason. Giles doesn't consult Willow or Xander who were around when the trigger first was used or might have some opinion on whether Spike deserves to live, nah he just plots with Wood.

Now that we have described some of the stupid parts, let's focus disgusting ones. And boy, there's plenty of those! Spike claiming Nikki Wood signed up to be a Slayer and didn't love her son enough to walk away and the narrative clearly supporting him. Buffy giving Spike a carte blanche to kill Wood and even playing her own dead mother card as if that makes it okay (one of the many details of this trainwreck which I had forgotten and made me facepalm a few minutes ago). As mentioned, Buffy not giving a damn about Dawn's (or anybody else's) safety. Buffy shutting the door in Giles's face (despite Giles being such a caricature that season). The whole "Spike is our strongest warrior" nonsense. First of all, he ain't. That would be Willow with whose well-being you don't seem at all concerned. Second of all, considering he was repeatedly under the First's mind control, him being strong isn't an asset but a liability, Buff.But hey, the genius writers have thought of that, they gave us a clear reason why the trigger is no longer a factor Wood used it in his idiotic attempt to kill Spike in. Oh, wait they don't, it just so happens.

Now, that I am fast-forwarding through the episode it does seem that I remembered wrongly some of it - Buffy doesn't verbally object to Giles' assertion that the trigger is still active but she still wants Spike unchained?!? Spike goes to Wood's because he made the million people in Buffy's house nervous. Gee, if only you have chains or something... What's stopping him from killing Wood along the way, assuming you ever intended to get him chained at Wood's? Can't you keep character motivation at least somewhat consistent for even one episode, writers?

5 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Note that Wood realises that souled Spike ISN'T the man who killed Nikki, he has to play 'Early one morning' to bring him out.

He understands nothing, he is just an idiot who wanted to kill Spike in the dumbest, most likely to fail fashion. I mean, it's mind control, it's not that hard of a concept. It doesn't make Spike soulless. But of course, Wood has to be unreasonable, so the audience can root for Writer's Pet Spike. But said writers did such a poor job that Spike comes across much worse than Wood. Well, except for his legions of fans, many of whom would have been perfectly happy to see him kill Wood, I am sure. Honestly I have never seen anyone who isn't a big Spike fan say they like S7, so maybe the writers were right to pander to this particular audience. But episodes like that make me happy the show was cancelled, such pathetic mess which spits in the face of all the earlier seasons stood for.

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Buffy is now willing to sacrifice Dawn to save the world. Because Dawn's older or because Buffy knows there's a heaven?

Because being around Spike has addled her brain. Mind you, sacrificing Dawn to save the world is very much the right thing to do but this sudden change comes out of left field and is in complete contrast with her idiotic, blind support of Spike all season long, so I really don't understand how a huge fan of Dawn like you can give this trainwreck 10/10 but to each his own.

[Halting Hex]

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

if Giles wanted Spike dead he would have killed [Spike] himself

Seriously.  Giles has access to Spike's blood supply, he has access to Holy Water, and he knows all about how Buffy beat Kralik.  Just spike (pardon the pun) the blood and …poof!

Also, remember that at the start of the episode, Spike is chained up.  How difficult is it to stake a chained vampire, exactly?  And if Spike could break the chains, then there isn't much point to them, is there?

8 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Wood realises that souled Spike ISN'T the man who killed Nikki, he has to play 'Early one morning' to bring him out.

Or he knows that the vampire is always there, even if a soul is added into the mix (as we've seen with Angel), and so he makes Spike "drop the mask" and reveal the true demon within.  A demon that's killed more this year than any other season.  And even this assumes that Wood even believes that Spike has a SOOOOOOOUUL now; for all he knows, this could just be Spike bullshitting for his own safety.

I do "love" Spike saying that he'll kill Robin "if he so much as looks at me funny".  Couldn't help but imagine what might happen next…

Quote

(SPIKE vamps out and bites WOOD, draining him.  WOOD falls to the living room floor, very much dead.)

GILES:  Good heavens!

DAWN:  Why did you do that?
SPIKE:  What?  He was looking at me!

XANDER:  His contact lenses were irritating him!  He just sent me upstairs for some eyedrops!

SPIKE:  Oh. (Beat.)  Oh, well, honest mistake.

(Stunned silence)

SPIKE:  Buffy, they're looking at me…

(Everybody RUNS)

BUFFY:  My hero!

(BUFFY pulls SPIKE into a passionate embrace.  They kiss.  SPIKE sweeps her off of her feet and carries her to the couch, stepping over WOOD's corpse en route.)

SPIKE:  Alone at last…

(Kissage resumes, as SPIKE lays BUFFY down on the couch.  WOOD stays dead.)

BUFFY (panting):  Oh, yessssss…

What?  As if that couldn't have happened.  As if the Spuffy fans (including Whedon and Espenson) wouldn't have loved it.  I guess I should be thankful for small favors, then.

Still, this episode did have one benefit…it made me quit the series.  Granted, I didn't quite live up to the resolve I declared after this one aired:  

Spoiler

"I can't believe I'm leaving five fucking episodes with Faith completely unwatched!" and "I honestly don't care if Eliza performs all of her scenes full-frontal nude!"

…but I was strong enough so that the finale was the only episode after this I watched in its entirety.  And that will never change.  So many Andrew scenes I'll never see.  And yet, I seem to have survived…

(Seriously, Joss, of all the actors to [perhaps] seduce you on the casting couch, you're impressed by Tom Lenk?  I'd understand if you'd put Graham in more episodes [Bailey Chase is also out as gay, these days],but Lenk?? Takes all kinds, I suppose…)

Edited November 21, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

22 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Just a reminder:  when you give an episode 10/10, you are essentially saying that you find no episode of the entire series significantly better than this one.  As before, I admire your iconoclasm.  Or perhaps your supply of hallucinogens?

This actually isn't as bad as some of the other shit, because it has a functional structure.  But it's still shit, seeing as the "climax" is Buffy telling Robin that she'd endorse Spike's murdering him.  Could the Judge burn Buffy at this point?  Because clearly "there's no humanity in [her]" any more.

William/Spike continues to be a fucking embarrassment to any decent vampire.  If we didn't know that Drusilla was already insane when she sired him, you'd think that being around this pathetic mama's vamp was what drove her around the bend.

And, once again, my "favorite" statistic from Season Seventh Circle of Hell, the number of lines of dialogue spoken by all of the human beings in the main cast in this episode:

• Willow has six lines of dialogue.

• Dawn has three lines of dialogue.  One of which is "Ow".

• Xander has two lines of dialogue.  One of which is, appropriately enough, "Nothing."

• Anya has a grand total of one line of dialogue.  Which she has to deliver while wearing an ugly-ass swim cap on her head.

Total dialogue for every human being in the opening credits:  12 lines of dialogue.  Roughly the equivalent of, say, one Library scene, back in the day.  But we don't let humans interact any more; there's only St. Sunkencheeks, his groupie/fucktoy, and the Mean People who want to hurt him for being a mass-murderer.  Waaaaah!

(Picking an almost random scene from the early seasons [the "Cordelia's much better for you than Angel" walk-and-talk from Reptile Boy], I find that in that scene, Xander has 7 lines and Willow has 6.  One scene.  Two characters.  More work for the supporting cast than an entire episode's worth, here.)

By the way, doesn't this episode rather ruin the "Dawn is so precious to Buffy" theory?  What with Buffy being willing to let Dawn die and not even bothering to check on Dawnie's possible head trauma, even when Spike points it out.  I mean, she does use Dawn as an excuse for blowing off Giles at the episode's end, but I'd be more convinced she was an actual caring sister if she hadn't taken the better part of the day to check in on the Dawnster…

Oh, and there's no reason it should have taken us four fucking episodes to get here, anyhow.  "Wood wants to kill Spike" should have been a once-off, not a four-episode bore-fest.  I mean, we already had one of those (Sleeper through Show Time) earlier in the season.

I have never taken any hallucinogens and neither has my flying unicorn!

Buffy has her humanity, she cares for both Woods AND Spike. Buffy knows Dawn is tough and appreciates her as a full Scooby, doesn't need to shield her any more. But the lovely kiss between them makes me go ahhhhhh every time. Plus Woods needed Giles back for his plan? And it's not like this was a major theme of the last few eps, it's about 2 lines in Storyteller?

21 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

No. The implication is that Buffy chooses her annoying vampiric boyfriend over her friends, her father figure and everyone else. 
 

When the supposed champion of humanity and mankind's protector says she'd let the vampire kill a human being, something is definitely wrong with Buffy and the show for that matter. That's like sending Robin a message: "I don't give a fuck about your mother!" Wonderful heroine she is, our Buffy...  

No, that's why Dawn was in that scene, if it had been Spike himself I'd agree with you. She cares for souled Spike, not unsouled and he has every right to life as Woods does. And yes she is a wonderful heroine. 

[Halting Hex]

9 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

And it's not like [Wood wanting Spike dead] was a major theme of the last few eps, it's about 2 lines in Storyteller?

A boring, artificially-stretched out plot doesn't have to dominate the individual episodes to still be running on too long.  And actually Wood/Spike was inserted into the climactic action of Storyteller, where we're supposed to be wondering if Robin will help Spike or backstab him while they're fighting the…I forget who they're fighting, but it's probably not relevant.

I grant you, anything to take us away from "Andrew cries his guilt away", but still.

10 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Buffy knows Dawn is tough

Subdural hematomas exist. Be a real hoot if Dawn had died of one while Buffy was caught up Spike's drama, as ever.  At least make the kid an icepack, ffs.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

18 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

You know an episode is shit when it portrays Spike as some sort of ultimate pathetic mama's boy and I still hate it.

The entire plot relies on everyone taking a healthy dose of the stupid pills. Buffy and Spike for insisting Spike is no longer triggered (and for not giving a damn about the trigger in the previous episodes), Giles for going with Wood's dumb plan to kill Spike (if Giles wanted Spike dead he would have killed himself, not come up with some ridiculous plan to distract Buffy as if killing Spike must inevitably take hours), Wood for coming up with said plan. And let's not forget about the First who so far hasn't done anything with Spike's trigger rather than having him kill a bunch of random people for no apparent reason. Giles doesn't consult Willow or Xander who were around when the trigger first was used or might have some opinion on whether Spike deserves to live, nah he just plots with Wood.

Now that we have described some of the stupid parts, let's focus disgusting ones. And boy, there's plenty of those! Spike claiming Nikki Wood signed up to be a Slayer and didn't love her son enough to walk away and the narrative clearly supporting him. Buffy giving Spike a carte blanche to kill Wood and even playing her own dead mother card as if that makes it okay (one of the many details of this trainwreck which I had forgotten and made me facepalm a few minutes ago). As mentioned, Buffy not giving a damn about Dawn's (or anybody else's) safety. Buffy shutting the door in Giles's face (despite Giles being such a caricature that season). The whole "Spike is our strongest warrior" nonsense. First of all, he ain't. That would be Willow with whose well-being you don't seem at all concerned. Second of all, considering he was repeatedly under the First's mind control, him being strong isn't an asset but a liability, Buff.But hey, the genius writers have thought of that, they gave us a clear reason why the trigger is no longer a factor Wood used it in his idiotic attempt to kill Spike in. Oh, wait they don't, it just so happens.

Now, that I am fast-forwarding through the episode it does seem that I remembered wrongly some of it - Buffy doesn't verbally object to Giles' assertion that the trigger is still active but she still wants Spike unchained?!? Spike goes to Wood's because he made the million people in Buffy's house nervous. Gee, if only you have chains or something... What's stopping him from killing Wood along the way, assuming you ever intended to get him chained at Wood's? Can't you keep character motivation at least somewhat consistent for even one episode, writers?

He understands nothing, he is just an idiot who wanted to kill Spike in the dumbest, most likely to fail fashion. I mean, it's mind control, it's not that hard of a concept. It doesn't make Spike soulless. But of course, Wood has to be unreasonable, so the audience can root for Writer's Pet Spike. But said writers did such a poor job that Spike comes across much worse than Wood. Well, except for his legions of fans, many of whom would have been perfectly happy to see him kill Wood, I am sure. Honestly I have never seen anyone who isn't a big Spike fan say they like S7, so maybe the writers were right to pander to this particular audience. But episodes like that make me happy the show was cancelled, such pathetic mess which spits in the face of all the earlier seasons stood for.

Because being around Spike has addled her brain. Mind you, sacrificing Dawn to save the world is very much the right thing to do but this sudden change comes out of left field and is in complete contrast with her idiotic, blind support of Spike all season long, so I really don't understand how a huge fan of Dawn like you can give this trainwreck 10/10 but to each his own.

Woods just doesn't want to kill Spike, he wants his revenge, to beat him down and vent his rage. I understand it and in his place might do the same. But not now he has a soul, it would be like trying to kill Oz for what his werewolf self did. Buffy loves Dawn and all her friends but she needs Spike as she cares for him and he's one of their strongest fighters. Dawn is not the little girl she was in s5, she's a grown woman and a full Scooby.

 And for the Buffy/Dawn scene alone I'd love this ep.  

16 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Seriously.  Giles has access to Spike's blood supply, he has access to Holy Water, and he knows all about how Buffy beat Kralik.  Just spike (pardon the pun) the blood and …poof!

Also, remember that at the start of the episode, Spike is chained up.  How difficult is it to stake a chained vampire, exactly?  And if Spike could break the chains, then there isn't much point to them, is there?

Or he knows that the vampire is always there, even if a soul is added into the mix (as we've seen with Angel), and so he makes Spike "drop the mask" and reveal the true demon within.  A demon that's killed more this year than any other season.  And even this assumes that Wood even believes that Spike has a SOOOOOOOUUL now; for all he knows, this could just be Spike bullshitting for his own safety.

I do "love" Spike saying that he'll kill Robin "if he so much as looks at me funny".  Couldn't help but imagine what might happen next…

What?  As if that couldn't have happened.  As if the Spuffy fans (including Whedon and Espenson) wouldn't have loved it.  I guess I should be thankful for small favors, then.

Still, this episode did have one benefit…it made me quit the series.  Granted, I didn't quite live up to the resolve I declared after this one aired:  

  Reveal hidden contents

"I can't believe I'm leaving five fucking episodes with Faith completely unwatched!" and "I honestly don't care if Eliza performs all of her scenes full-frontal nude!"

…but I was strong enough so that the finale was the only episode after this I watched in its entirety.  And that will never change.  So many Andrew scenes I'll never see.  And yet, I seem to have survived…

(Seriously, Joss, of all the actors to [perhaps] seduce you on the casting couch, you're impressed by Tom Lenk?  I'd understand if you'd put Graham in more episodes [Bailey Chase is also out as gay, these days],but Lenk?? Takes all kinds, I suppose…)

Interesting idea although it's easier on Giles to share the blame with Woods? Come on, enough with the Spike hate don't start on Andrew as well (although Joss must have a thing for him, putting him in CITW and MAAN). 

[Joe Hellandback]

8 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

A boring, artificially-stretched out plot doesn't have to dominate the individual episodes to still be running on too long.  And actually Wood/Spike was inserted into the climactic action of Storyteller, where we're supposed to be wondering if Robin will help Spike or backstab him while they're fighting the…I forget who they're fighting, but it's probably not relevant.

I grant you, anything to take us away from "Andrew cries his guilt away", but still.

Subdural hematomas exist. Be a real hoot if Dawn had died of one while Buffy was caught up Spike's drama, as ever.  At least make the kid an icepack, ffs.

Come on, think of all the times all the Scoobs have been knocked out! COMPLETELY unrealistic but that's TV, Dick Tracy has been shot in the shoulder 47 times! 

[Jack Shaftoe]

23 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Buffy knows Dawn is tough and appreciates her as a full Scooby, doesn't need to shield her any more.

First, that's not really the case as shown clearly

Spoiler

in the finale.

Second, what's that got to do with anything? Possible serious injury is a possible serious injury, regardless if Dawn is a Scooby or a civilian.

Quote

And it's not like this was a major theme of the last few eps, it's about 2 lines in Storyteller?

That's relevant because? Not being a major theme in those episodes only makes them look bad, rather than this one look good.

Quote

Buffy loves Dawn and all her friends

Just not enough to chain Spike because she "trusts" him. Despite this being, you know, a case of mind control, hence by definition nothing to do with trust because Spike isn't in control of his actions when triggered, that's the whole point! It's an absolutely idiotic way of showing Buffy's trust in Spike and there are no serious consequences only because the First is even more braindead than Buffy.

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Come on, think of all the times all the Scoobs have been knocked out

This is a meta reason. The characters shouldn't behave as if they know they are in TV show and hence very unlikely to die.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Jack Shaftoe

[Halting Hex]

Theory:  the First spent so much time impersonating Buffy and Spike, it wound up as stupid as the two of them combined.

Which makes it lucky that it was incorporeal, as it wouldn't have had the mental capacity to dress itself.

[lembergwatcher]

1 minute ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Woods just doesn't want to kill Spike

The guy's last name is Wood.

 

3 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Buffy loves Dawn and all her friends but she needs Spike as she cares for him and he's one of their strongest fighters.

Well, I would believe it if you showed some examples of Buffy's supposed love for anyone whose name isn't Spike. And I wonder where does this myth about "Spike the Strongest Fighter" come from? Are his fighting abilities stronger than, say, Willow's magic?

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎21‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 5:41 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

First, that's not really the case as shown clearly

  Hide contents

in the finale.

Second, what's that got to do with anything? Possible serious injury is a possible serious injury, regardless if Dawn is a Scooby or a civilian.

That's relevant because? Not being a major theme in those episodes only makes them look bad, rather than this one look good.

Just not enough to chain Spike because she "trusts" him. Despite this being, you know, a case of mind control, hence by definition nothing to do with trust because Spike isn't in control of his actions when triggered, that's the whole point! It's an absolutely idiotic way of showing Buffy's trust in Spike and there are no serious consequences only because the First is even more braindead than Buffy.

This is a meta reason. The characters shouldn't behave as if they know they are in TV show and hence very unlikely to die.

Different, after her being cast out she gets back in touch with her softer side and that's why she acts as she does in the finale. As for the head wound in Buffy world people get knocked out so often it isn't a big deal. 

On ‎21‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 5:47 PM, lembergwatcher said:

The guy's last name is Wood.

 

Well, I would believe it if you showed some examples of Buffy's supposed love for anyone whose name isn't Spike. And I wonder where does this myth about "Spike the Strongest Fighter" come from? Are his fighting abilities stronger than, say, Willow's magic?

She needs them both, plus remember, Spike has killed 2 Slayers? And she loves all her friends and family but isn't romantically involved with them. 

[Melancholy]

I don't think there was anything particularly unsafe about Willow going to LA on a day-trip. Everyone can't stay in that damn house 24/7. Buffy went to a whole other dimension in Get It Done. 

Spoiler

It was also quite a productive trip, especially by S7 standards. Willow found Angel's soul and restored it. Turns out, Angel decided not to use his conscience for the remainder of his show and into S8 in the comics but Willow couldn't have known that. Willow was the first of AI to confront Jasmine. And most importantly, she brought back Faith to the Scooby gang and Faith finally learned that she was being hunted by The First. I crack up at Willow's "Don't sweat it. I got a slayer out of the deal" when Angel tries to thank her. Yes, I'd say that putting in a few hours to ensoul Angel is more than worth getting Faith the Vampire Slayer to come to your team after the other team (i.e. Wesley) was out the risk of breaking her out of prison and verifying that she'd fight for Team Good. 

Edited December 23, 2018 by Melancholy

[lembergwatcher]

So in case Casa Summers came under attack everyone should have relied on Andrew's magic abilities?
If The "First Evil" was truly Evil, I can see no reason why it couldn't have taken advantage of a situation like this.

Speaking of Get it Done... Didn't Buffy herself tell everybody she's in charge as in "do what I say"?

Quote

BUFFY
What's wrong?

WILLOW
Nothing you need to worry about. I'll give you the full scoop later. Maybe I'll even bring back some good news?

What kind of language is this, private Rosenberg? Stand at attention and report why the heck are you going to LA!

Spoiler

Angel? He should have been dusted years ago.

[illdoc]

On 12/23/2018 at 11:56 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Nothing you need to worry about. I'll give you the full scoop later. Maybe I'll even bring back some good news?

How long a conversation was that between Fred & Willow?? Long enough to not only tell her about removing Angel's soul and the soul missing, but also that Faith was there (and possibly about Connor too, unless Willow knew about that beforehand)!! Otherwise, why would Willow think that there might be some "good news" (presumably that Faith might be joining Team Buffy)?

[Halting Hex]

I know I'm not the first one to point out how OOC it is for Willow to be excited about recruiting Faith, of all homocidal maniacs.  But seriously:

Quote

WILLOW: Yeah. I hope [the Council] throw(s) the book at [Faith].

GILES: I'm not sure there is a, a book for this.

WILLOW: They could throw other things.

FUFFY: I forgot how much you don't like Faith.

WILLOW: After what she's done to you? Oh, I wish those Council guys would let me have an hour alone in the room with her, if I was larger and had grenades. 
—Who Are You?

Yeah, yeah, Willow's a murderer, too, now…she knows better than to be all judgmental about hot sociopaths in leather; that's all in the past!

Except that Willow's revenge spree was fueled by her witnessing her girlfriend's murder and exacerbated by Willow sucking down a Box-full of "Darkest Magick".  Whereas Faith signed on to a plan to murder Willow in exchange for a PlayStation™.  Apples and orange crayons, IMO.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

I always wondered what Willow and Faith talked about on their journey back to Sunnydale? Plenty of fanfic on the subject but largely concentrating on a stop off at a motel. 

[Halting Hex]

Eh, if Momma had a bad case of the hornies, she had a blushing Fred at her disposal and an entire Hyperion Hotel to rock, one bedroom at a time.  I think Willow was all business on the drive home.

(Besides, not that she knew it, but she'd just gotten done essentially topping Cordelia.  Which has to be a Top Three fantasy for the Willster, going back years.  Just saying.)

[Halting Hex]

We don't know if Willow will succeed in bringing "help" back from LA, so spec goes under spoiler bars.

Spoiler

On 4/10/2020 at 3:39 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

I always wondered what Willow and Faith talked about on their journey back to Sunnydale?

"Say, Red, do you think the Sox are ever gonna win the Series? I'm getting sick of the Yankees every year."

Perhaps once the gang got time away from the Hellmouth, Willow discovered that there really was a "Curse of the Bambino" and broke it, and Faith has totally mellowed out now that championship banners fly over Fenway.

(Or not, lol. But we know that Willow has never been to New York [Inca Mummy Girl], so why not help out the Southie Slayer against the Evil Empire?

World Series titles, 1919-2003: NY Yankees 27, Boston Red Sox 0

World Series titles, 2004-2023:  Sawx 4, Yanks 1.

Definitely magic at work. 😉 )

I'm hoping it's Conner, so he and Dawn can hook up and spontaneously combust.

But let's face it, anything to avoid talking about this particular pile.  Although I believe this is a milestone of sorts: after 74* episodes of Buffy giving Spike a ridiculous free pass for his previous murders, she breaks new ground here…by giving Sparky a ridiculous free pass for his hypothetical future murder of Robin.  New worlds to conquer, etc.

*-74 episodes counting Becoming Part 2, Lovers Walk and from Pangs  onwards, excepting Bargaining Part 1 (Buffy can't do much about Spike, being dead and all), Bargaining Part 2 (newly-resurrected Buffy can't really comprehend where she is, much less where Spike might be) and Villains through Grave, where Buffy may miss her rapist and be gladly taking her virginal 15-year-old sister to enjoy Spike's "hospitality" as well, but she has no idea that he's gone to Africa, and she doesn't own a motorcycle to follow him there, so slaying opportunities are thin, I'll admit.

(However, I do count The Body, even though Marsters doesn't appear in the episode.  No reason Buffy couldn't have worked off her "My Mommy's dead" grief by popping over to Spike's crypt, popping Spike in the chest with a stake, and thus saving the lives of Holden, Charlotte and at least a dozen other people that Spike ultimately kills.)

Edited March 4 by Halting Hex