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S01.E08: Burnt Toast

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Karma hides her relationship with Liam while Amy hides her feelings from Karma.

 

iTunes Canada put this up early. I purchased and watched it. It was... I can't even say anything without spoiling it. Let's just say it'll put everyone through the emotional wringer.

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Just had to find spoilers for the ep. I'm really pathetic that way. This should be interesting. Definitely not the cliffhanger I expected. This show definitely needs to be renewed so that isn't the end. I am not sure I am afraid of the internets reaction or really anticipating it. This show definitely isn't predictable.

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We can't discuss it here until it airs for real, guys! Should we start a spoiler thread? We have a speculation one but not a spoiler one right now.

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We can't discuss it here until it airs for real, guys! Should we start a spoiler thread? We have a speculation one but not a spoiler one right now.

I just saw it and I think a spoiler thread for the episode where people can discuss would be the best move.

Edited by dohe

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(This post formerly started a spoiler thread. The spoiler and episode threads have now been merged.)

 

Spoil away! I think that quite a few of us have seen the finale at this point because of iTunes Canada accidentally releasing it early, so. Discuss.

 

I mostly just feel bad for Carter Covington. I saw one kid saying she wanted to kill Carter and the whole production staff. I wonder how many Twitter messages he's receiving...

 

Here is a clip of the adorable dance sequence.

 

Here is a clip of the confession scene.

 

Here is an Amy and Lauren scene that I loved.

 

(And not that anyone here likely needs a reminder, but no illegal download links, please!)

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First thing no one but no one should be sending hate messages to anyone involved in the production on twitter.  It is one thing to critique an episode.  It is another to be hateful and especially threatening to those involved in the production.  Also people often don't seem to recognize that the actors and actresses on this show are just trying to make a living. 

That aside, I mostly feel sorry for the many people who had given this show the benefit of the doubt it was not the same old story only to be given the same old story.  A show does not owe anything to a viewer.  The creator and the writers of the show have a right to make whatever show they want.  But I think it is best to start at the beginning.  That is that this was the show with the horrible premise.  Two straight women pretend to be a lesbian couple to become popular. It was a premise that needlessly to say raised concern. This was also on the same channel that had presented the number 1 most despised representation of lesbianism in contemporary television with the infamous Tea character on Skins.  However Carter asked for those concerned about the subject matter to give him and the show a chance.  That the show would not be just some girls pretending to be lesbians and winding up in bed with boys.  Yet that is exactly what it ended up being.

 

There were problems from the get go.  The lead male character, Liam, was depicted as someone who desired Karma at first because he thought she was a lesbian.  He even went so far as to try to have sex with Karma in the parking lot at an event where Karma and her supposed girlfriend were to be crowned.  As is typical with these shows, the program then began spinning how Liam was not so bad.  These moments actually were worse as they felt contrived and their intent, to make Liam look wonderful, were blatantly obvious.  So be it.  The show had a chance to overcome this and it was the character of Amy.  The show never labeled Amy.  She was just someone in love with Karma.  This raised red flags.  On the one hand, many teens at that age are amorphous when it comes to sexuality.  On the other hand, it always seems to be the women who are amorphous - unlike Liam who was 100% straight and Shane who was 100% gay.  And there was that matter of that premise.  The saving grace to the bad premise was it could be Amy's self-discovery - something played up over and over.

 

However the finale ended with the following.  Karma making it clear she was straight.  Amy in bed with Liam.  Liam, the guy who wanted to have sex with lesbians, having had sex with one woman and about to have sex with the other apparently trumping her same sex feelings.  Even Skins did not end in such an appalling manner - one that rewards the viewer who wished for the douchebag to get all the women and all but mocks those who, originally repulsed by the show's premise, gave the show a shot.  Carter will of course go these two were drunk and hurt and made a mistake.  And that is the real problem.  Because time and time and time again shows contrive to have lesbians or characters such as Amy - who stay unlabeled more as a desire for storylines than any desire for reality - in bed with men.  Why?  What is this obsession with forcing that subplot?  These contrivances are excused with much rationalization. But it is what it is.  When it came down to it Faking It became the very nightmare people worried about.  So while Carter said it was something else, it was very much, in the end, what worried people all along with it's sexual awakening for Amy just a series of stale crumbs that still led her, as with Karma, into bed with the lead male character.  The questions is do viewers accept crumbs or do they reject it realizing that the show's focus is straight romance while scattering those crumbs of a possibility out there of the two women ending up together at the very end* to keep those who desperately desire representation or variety in romance watching.  Shame on Carter and shame on the show.   

 

As a gay male, I am tired of this treatment of lesbian representation.  I don't see myself and gay men treated as if our sexuality has to be funneled through experiences with women.  I don't see us being depicted as falling in love with the person not the gender.  Yet there seems to be little respect for lesbian sexuality on tv.  I gave Carter the benefit of the doubt and I also watched because I have been a fan of Michael Willett since United States of Tara.  I truly think the best move he could do is to edit that last 20 seconds out.  He may think it is some big cliffhanger.  Instead it is a major league slap in the face of a group that does not deserve this repeated treatment.  He can say well we never labeled Amy or Amy is on a long journey which people need to wait out.  I have heard the excuses before.  The show can get to that journey without going down the same tired, dreary, dull road so many shows have gone before.  Amy was drunk.  Liam was drunk.  They were in pain and needed to dull it.  No.  It comes down to the show wanted a way to get Amy in to bed with a guy because it is apparently crucial that all possible lesbians on a show have sex with a man. 

 

*Not sure if they will get there.  The show will probably be renewed but it seems as if MTV is holding off on making that move a bit longer than expected.  After tonight, maybe it is best it is cancelled.

Edited by dohe
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I don't even know how I feel, honestly. I loved almost everything about that episode. The confession scene played out very realistically, and I don't think that Karma came off as a bad guy there at all. She can't make herself have romantic feelings for Amy just because Amy wants her to. She promised that Amy would never lose her and that she loves her, just not in that way. I also loved Lauren's reaction to overhearing the truth, and I think this could be the start of a friendship between Lauren and Amy (which would be good if Karma and Amy are on the outs for a while at the beginning of season two -- Amy doesn't seem to have many other friends). The dance scene was adorable, Shane and Pablo were cute (although that's going to end so badly), and Liam was fairly decent (he confirmed multiple times that Amy was okay with everything; he didn't have reason to suspect that Karma was lying). And although I do like Karma, I was glad to see her learn that she'd really messed things up with her lies.

 

That last scene, though... I don't know. I get the motivation -- they were both drunk off their asses, and they were both angry at Karma and likely wanted to hurt her. That semi-snarl on Amy's face when she spotted Liam definitely wasn't in any way romantic. If they did have sex (there's still time for her to push him away), then it's hate-sex at best. I'm glad that Amy never identified as a lesbian, because that saved this from becoming yet another story where a lesbian sleeps with a guy, but I'm still disappointed to see this kind of story play out yet again. The episode would have been almost perfect without that last scene.

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This was an excellent episode up until the last 15 seconds. I bloody well hope this leak is a "leak", aka, mtv testing the waters and they edit it out because.. 

No. Just No. 

 

Heck, Amy having drunk and upset sex with.. oh, I dunno, Lauren, or that waitress that poured her champagne ? would have been fine.  Not Liam. That is just so wrong. It also makes Liam the biggest prick to ever prick.. which.. that is not advisable if they want to use the character as anything other than an antagonist, ever again. 

 

.. A huge part of why I like this show is that Katie Stevens and Rita Volk have worked very hard for it, but for them to get the fan base to ignore this would take.. I dunno.. a wedding announcement?  A twitcam session that is just them making out for 44 minutes?

 

The dance scene, Amy's utterly adorable speech, the confession.. so much of this was just perfect, funny, touching. I dont mind having Amy rip my beating heart from my metaphorical chest and using it to play soccer with. But that ending is not okay. 

Edited by Izeinwinter
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They can save the show by cutting that last 20 seconds or so.  This would be an extremely smart move.  This is just an alltime tone deaf ending that pretty much destroys the entire season.  Chop 20 seconds off and it makes all the difference. 

 

I just don't want to hear Carter give rationalizations.  A show can create all the reasons in the world.  The reality is there is always a way around it that does no use such an infamous cliché.  I think we all get that it is a hate screw but why go that route?  Why open such a can of worms particularly when the show is dealing with a reputation coming in of trivializing female sexuality and lesbianism in particular.

 

Lop that 20 seconds off MTV.  Do the right thing.   On another level, that 20 seconds takes away from everything else.  As Cranberry pointed out there were several strong moments.  The dance.  Amy and Karma's talk.  Liam and Karma's talk.  Shane and Pablo. Lauren and Amy.  Karma crying.  Yet ultimately this is going to be known for that last 20 seconds and how it ruined a show that had, to that point, overcome such a terrible premise. 

Edited by dohe
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Ending it on Karma crying? Yhea. That really works. And that is also a bit of a gem, because that scene really brings home how her actions have rebounded on herself. 

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I honestly think that would be the best move at this point, yeah. I'm not usually one to believe that a showrunner should let the fans dictate the direction of a show, but with something like this that's just not going to go over well at all (I don't know if any of you have checked out the Faking It tag on Tumblr, but it's overwhelmingly negative right now), especially when the creative team really wants a second season... 

 

I liked that Karma rejected Amy. It was realistic, and she did it as kindly as she could. I also liked that Karma was crying at the end of the episode. She made mistakes, and she has to deal with the consequences. That would have been a good ending and one the fans could deal with, even if they were hardcore Karmy shippers. The last 15 seconds or so with Amy and Liam will definitely give us an opening conflict in season two, but they aren't necessary.

 

I do almost wonder if the leak was deliberate. I wouldn't be shocked if they cut that last bit out on the broadcast version.

 

(Also, on an amusing note, the worst thing that most of the Tumblr fans can think of to call Carter Covington is "Ryan Murphy II.")

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Is it worth expanding the title for the spoiler thread to include (for episode 1.08 "Burnt Toast") just in case someone who's seen the first seven episodes think they can't be spoiled because they've seen everything that has already been broadcast and is available and that all that thread is about is just things from one of those seven episodes and not the finale?

Edited by Shan

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Is it worth expanding the title for this spoiler thread to include (for episode 1.08 "Burnt Toast") just in case someone who's seen the first seven episodes think they can't be spoiled because they've seen everything that has already been broadcast and is available and they think this thread is something to do with one of those seven episodes and not the finale?

 

(I posted this blind without reading any of the content in this thread and going off what the episode thread said about starting a spoiler thread. Apologies if this isn't the right place for this post).

Edited by Shan

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I edited a note into my first post here, so I think it should be pretty clear now that this thread contains detailed finale spoilers! But in any thread with the "spoiler" prefix, you can expect to find information about any unaired episodes, and it doesn't have to be spoiler-fonted.

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I think it's pretty safe -- I mentioned this in the other thread, but any thread with the "spoiler" prefix is going to contain un-spoiler-fonted information about any unaired episodes, so it's best to stay out if you want to remain unspoiled.

 

I'm going to lock this thread for now so that no one accidentally posts spoilers here; I will open it back up on Tuesday!

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One thing that is disturbing me is this. Do the writers /intend/ to write Liam Booker as the Morning Star, Moloch the devourer, Source of All Evil, or are they just not thinking things through? 

Because, well.. why was he there outside the wedding at the end? Shane spilled the beans to him. All the beans. Then Karma told him she broke up with Amy. So he knew that his entire relationship with Karma was a pack of lies, and also exactly how emotionally vulnerable Amy was at that time and in that place. A normal boy. A sane boy of 16 or whatever, would nope the hell out of there. That is just a pile of drama and vicious deception from which one should make haste getting the hell away from. 

But nope. instead, it's ""lets use the devastated 15 year old girl to get back at her friend". Who does that? That goes beyond mere sociopathy and into the outright demonic. 

 

And it isn't the first time that a bit of contemplation makes his actions look worse and worse the more I think. The hotties looking like a beneton catalogue implies he was seducing them to.. fulfill some fantasy of sleeping with all the races. 

 

His conversation with Karma in 1x07 about how he wanted to break them up? That wasn't cute. 

Edited by Izeinwinter
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These spilers are highly dissapointing.

I doubt there will be any additional cuts from the episode at this point (probably too late for that)

Amy being with Liam just cheapens the entire season, even if she backs out, or decides she doesn't like it next year.

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Yeah, you're right; it's probably too late. Carter and Katie are going to be doing some major damage control on Twitter on Tuesday, I think. The fandom is still going nuts today. It's just too bad that the last 15-20 seconds exist, because it takes away from the otherwise excellent episode.

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It's too late if the leak was an accident. But.. okay, one should never underestimate just how bad some people are at their jobs, but still.. Itunes getting the release date wrong? errh... In one market only? 

 

Amy was being utterly adorable, and the contrast between Kiam and Karmy has never been starker- With Liam, karma was being.. frankly, a lying user. It was painful to watch, and was actually making me feel sorry for Liam. At the same time, Amy brought out the best in Karma - we saw her be a good friend to Amy and it was organic and made her less of a bitch and more just very unwise.

 

Then that ending.. Urrkk. If they wanted a shocking twist, ffs, I would have preferred if Amy had gone to the twain and picked up the incest twins. That at least would have been funny. 

Edited by Izeinwinter

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And quite frankly, the whole thing makes Amy a completely horrible person, which is a complete 180 from who she has been and who she's been presented to be the entire season.

Karma may be an idiot and self absorbed regarding the emotional pain she was causing Amy, but Amy's behavior is completely vindictive, intentional infliction of pain. And for what? That Karma didn't agree to run away to California and get gay married with you immediately?

There is seriously no excuse. And no, being drunk is not an excuse, They both knew exactly what they were doing, and why they were doing it.

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Ha, meanwhile, this gold star lesbian is like, well, I don't *like* that Amy did that, but I actually totally understand it in context.  I will say I think it was an irresponsible way to end the season without a guaranteed season 2 pickup, because that could be the end of the series, and it does need to be unpacked and processed.  But after the confession scene, and what happens to Amy in that scene and the harsh [but very real] encounter she has with Karma, I understand her action at the end.  I think it's wrongheaded and foolish, but I kind of get how it's a response to some of the warring things she's feeling.  

 

That being said, I don't think they should have filmed that as an ending.  It's a dumb and inconsiderate cliffhanger, and they may have cooked their own goose with it.  Which is a shame.

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Oh don't get me wrong, I am not letting Liam off the hook either, and his actions are far worse since he is knowingly praying on an "innocent" not only for his own gratification but to hurt someone he claimed to care about.

But at the end of the day, Amy is the main charachter, the "hero" we're supposed to be rooting for and she acted despicably, for absolutely no real reason. And that puts aside any consternation over the lesbian suddenly becoming interested in a guy (apparently this is a big no no for lesbians, which as a straight man, I respect).

Honestly, it would have made far more sense if Amy had made a drunken pass at Lauren, who she actually did share a nice monet with, instead of Liam who she doesn't like, barely knows, and just found out had sex with Karma.

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Yeah, I'm disappointed, but I don't completely hate it (these are kids; they act on impulse and make stupid mistakes), and I'll definitely continue to watch and discuss the show. I do think it was a bad move, business-wise. I feel bad for Katie and Rita and Carter after this; I checked Twitter and they're already getting a lot of angry tweets. I'm eagerly anticipating the second part of that Entertainment Weekly interview now, though -- part one said, "Check back next week for Katie’s take on Karma’s sexuality and the truth about Amy’s orientation."

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I guess it doesn't actually change anything for me in re: Amy's orientation though?  I think she did what she did out of hurt, and spite, and a desire to hurt Karma the way she feels she herself has been hurt, but it doesn't make me think she's any less gay.

 

In my experience most lesbians actually have had sex with men, mostly as teenagers.  Given the shaky ground Amy's been standing on all season, it didn't strike me as particularly OOC.  Again, I was disappointed in her, but it didn't strike me as outside the realm of believable bad choices for her to make.  It kind of seemed like the thing a pissed off, drunk, wounded 15 year old would do.

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The thing is, the setup may be impulsive and drunk for Amy, but Liam had it out with Karma, and then hung out at the wedding for.. what, hours? - The wedding was winding down, so it must have been late as all heck. And he made that decision before getting wasted. It is a level of malice I just do not see any way to redeem that character from. And it has to be malice. If he just wanted to drink and forget, he would not be doing that there. 

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You certainly may be right about her ultimate orientation, but the whole thing just feels cheap.

She's understandably upset, but Karma wasn't trying to hurt her and in fact, let her down as easily as possible.

I guess my point is, you could have shown Amy's depths of despair without throwing her together with a guy. Why didn't she drunk dial Jasmine? Have Shane take her to the Twain to get laid? Proposition Lauren?

All of these would have been things a yound, drunk, hurt lesbian girl might do, that don't intentionally and vindictively hurt the person she claims to be in love with, and don't involve a guy.

The thing is, the setup may be impulsive and drunk for Amy, but Liam had it out with Karma, and then hung out at the wedding for.. what, hours? - The wedding was winding down, so it must have been late as all heck. And he made that decision before getting wasted. It is a level of malice I just do not see any way to redeem that character from. And it has to be malice. If he just wanted to drink and forget, he would not be doing that there.

Absolutely. Liam is far worse since he seems to have been intentionally looking for a way to hurt Karma, rather than Amy who just kind of fell into it (though that doesn't excuse her. She wasn't black out drunk. She knew what she was doing)

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And most of them could be really funny, too. This is supposed to be a comedy, yes?

 

Like..  Make it a callback to her falling on her face the first time she tried picking up girls  and have her be terrifyingly effective. 

A 15 second shot of her waking up in a pile of hotties  with a "oh fuck" expression on her face? That would work for making people's jaws drop!

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She's understandably upset, but Karma wasn't trying to hurt her and in fact, let her down as easily as possible.

Oh, I totally agree, but since when is that a factor really when you're the one who's been hurt?  I think some people are more rational about that than others, and the show has done a decent job of establishing that Karma is the rational one while Amy is the emotional one.  When you hurt an emotional person, they're going to come back swinging.  Even if you were trying to let them down as gently as possible.  I'm not blaming Karma.  I think she was actually really lovely and heartfelt in that scene.  But she can't give Amy what she wants, and she's lashing out.  It may not be excusable, per se, but I find it understandable.

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Ok I had to make a account to weigh in here. Usually I just lurk on forums but I just feel I need to talk about this show with someone. So here goes.

 

I liked this episode, even the final scene. That said, I can understand the complaints. I think this would have worked better as a mid-season plot point, rather than the finale, but that's the problem with such a short season.

 

I think some of you are underestimating just how drunk Liam and Amy were (I wouldn't be surprised if their memories are a little fuzzy the next day). Also teenagers are barely rational at the best of times, let alone when they're crazy drunk and overcome with grief. Anyway, obviously my opinion of the scene will depend on how it turns out next season (please let there be a second season), but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

Finally here are a few other points that I don't believe anyone has considered:

-I'm not surprised Liam stayed. He drove there and can't drive now. Why go elsewhere to drink when he has a free and practically unlimited supply of alcohol right here. He also may have just wanted to talk to Amy (maybe to apologize).

-Amy and Liam probably feel a bond between them since they were both hurt and feel betrayed by Karma. Also Amy's the only one who wasn't lying to Liam.

-Amy may be trying not to be a lesbian (which I'm still confident she is). Her experience has been pretty terrible, her Mom just grounded her for two weeks just for dancing with Karma. Now that she's lost Karma she may feel that she should try to be straight to salvage her relationship with her Mom.

-Why Liam? Well first he was there. Second, he's the only other person she's felt any real connection with (also he may have felt something for her when they kissed). And finally, when Karma said she had sex with Liam, it was almost like she was using that as a reason for why she didn't have feelings for Amy. So maybe Amy figures it will work for her too.

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You certainly may be right about her ultimate orientation, but the whole thing just feels cheap.

She's understandably upset, but Karma wasn't trying to hurt her and in fact, let her down as easily as possible.

I guess my point is, you could have shown Amy's depths of despair without throwing her together with a guy. Why didn't she drunk dial Jasmine? Have Shane take her to the Twain to get laid? Proposition Lauren?

All of these would have been things a yound, drunk, hurt lesbian girl might do, that don't intentionally and vindictively hurt the person she claims to be in love with, and don't involve a guy.

Absolutely. Liam is far worse since he seems to have been intentionally looking for a way to hurt Karma, rather than Amy who just kind of fell into it (though that doesn't excuse her. She wasn't black out drunk. She knew what she was doing)

This is a fantastic post and it gets at the problem as succinctly as any I have seen.  When shows go this route there tends to be a two pronged defensive response.  That is that A) it does happen in real life and B) it is part of the journey so lets see how it turns out. 

 

Both do not comprehend the bigger picture.  That is that this is a consistent trope to the point that it may be the most prominent trope in all of LGBT media and that it is an example of a creative block and an inability to come up with conflict and drama that does not exist around a penis.  There are many ways Amy could have been shown dealing with her pain.  There are ways that could have created further conflict with Karma.*  Instead the show took the easiest possible way and acted as if this was something new when it is the same tired trope all over again.  Why is there such creative bankruptcy and why is it women who like women who seem to always be depicted going this route.  I slept with a woman when I was in my teens.  I know other gay men who slept with women in their teens and I know many who never did.  Yet our storyline is set in stone. We are always the Shanes, Kurts, Blaines, and there are seldom attempts to define our journey through sex with women.  There are rarely attempts to define a straight man's journey through sex with other men.  And while they may occur some more than with men, there is not a desire to define a straight woman's journey through sex with other women - typically sweeps stuff.  What is it about women who love women that it is believed that their journey has to be about making out and/or having sex with men.  Why can't these stories be told a different way and why is it that particularly group is the one who almost always gets this treatment.

 

I think to say it happens in real life or rationalize the contrivances misses the point.  This is a storyline that is deader than dead.  There is not an ounce of originality.  The reality is as long as it is rationalized and defended, show creators that are lazy and are unable to take a deeper, more thoughtful look at woman who love women will continue down this path and rationalize it as part of the journey.  This is a trope that needs to be put out of it's misery.  Maybe 10 years from now it will once again seem original.  But right now it is the same old over and over while being the very thing that opponents of the program said would happen from day one - that any show with this premise could not help but getting it wrong. 

 

*Here is an example borrowing under what that sharp post says.  Have Amy call Jasmine.  She ends up sleeping with Jasmine and Liam ends up sleeping with Shane.  Karma is left alone.  Next season Karma begins to realize she has feelings for Amy but now Amy is with Jasmine.  Meanwhile Liam still likes Karma but he is confused by sleeping with Shane.  Imagine that.  A straight guy dealing with conflicted feelings after sleeping with his best male friend.  But nope it is always the woman who loves a woman that gets that storyline.  Yawn.    

Edited by dohe
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I just can't get over the absolute destruction of Amy's charachter for literally nothing.

That 20 seconds changes the entire tone and trajectory if the season. The entire narrative arc was Amy's journey and Karma's cluelessness/selfishness to that journey. Karma finds out, their secret is blown and Karma should be spending the beginning of next season being appropriately punished for her misdeeds so she becomes worthy of the hero once more.

Instead it took all of 20 seconds to destroy the hero and turn Karma into an absolutely legitimately aggrieved victim.

So now we'll waste episodes next year on the aftermath of this foolishness while trying to redeem the hero of the story. Just narrative nonsense.

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Have read the spoilers and saw the confession scene but still waiting to see the ep in full on Tues.

 

Reading some of the reaction on line and most seem to have gone from initially very furious and damning of the show to now upset but still wanting a 2nd season to fix/resolve this. Also saw one post that made an interesting point. This really isn't too out of character for Amy. While Karma is the one who comes up with crazy plans and ideas, Amy is the one who acts impulsive. The first kiss in the gym, stabbing the van tires to keep her mom from going to homecoming, 'coming out' when her mom upset her at homecoming, kissing Oliver, the whole Twain bit, trying to kiss Jasmine, the bridal shower incident, the incident Karma mentions in 1/5, the threesome scene and so on.

 

Of course I don't think they will follow through to completion for lack of a better word. However, I think someone like Shane or Lauren will think they had and this will be the faking it part for next year. I would assume they would need to publically break up Karma and Amy at school so I think they will think it Is because people will believe that Amy/Liam really did sleep together.

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I actually fully understand what Amy did. She was hurt and drunk, and wanted to hurt Karma Liam, and most likely herself as well. I've been in situation like this, and believe me,  at that moment you don't think. and you hugely regret it afterwards.  I applaud to Carter for making this happen... if we get second season, first few episodes will be quite intense with Karma finding out... 

Edited by JaM
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I actually fully understand what Amy did. She was hurt and drunk, and wanted to hurt Karma and Liam. I've been in situation like this, and believe me,  at that moment you don't think. and you hugely regret it afterwards.  I applaud to Carter for making this happen... if we get second season, first few episodes will be quite intense with Karma finding out...

The question isn't whether such things have happened in real life.  The question is why, in terms of women who love women representation in the media, is this the rule instead of the exception.  Why should Carter be applauded for going with the same worn out trope yet again?  For example, there is a diversity to gay men.  Yet for a long time, the representations in the media for gay men were very narrow.  If we were not a murderer, we were the almost asexual like neighbor next door who helps the heroine through her romantic travails or the very flamboyant man used for comic relief.  We have come far in how we are represented.  Yet women who love women continue to presented as if their journeys have to go through penis.  This is specific, in terms of media representation, to this particular group. 

 

That is where the disconnect often comes up in these scenarios.  There is the POV that hey it happens in real life and as long as it is just part of the journey that is fine.  The other POV is why is there such creative bankruptcy that the same situation is almost always played out for a certain persons. 

 

With each scenario, another question is raised of why does it have to fall back on the same element which, in media representation, seems to be applied to this one group. Until we engage in a deeper conversation on this matter, representation will still be skewed towards the belief that every woman who loves women must undergo a sexual experience with a man.  If the show had Shane mess around with a woman or Liam mess around with a guy, it would be original and fresh.  That is because those, while happening in real life, are not tired tropes.  As it is, what was depicted is the same old story. 

 

The sad thing would be if Carter is defensive about this since a truly sensitive show creator would look deeper and, instead of going it happens, would understand it does not happen all the time as the media seems to think it does.   

 

BTW, someone emailed something they heard on a forum.  Have to credit this anonymous poster because they apparently said Carter Covington makes Ryan Murphy like The Lesbian Whisperer.  Ouch. 

Edited by dohe

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ok, i see where problem is... a lot of people wanted some fantasy where two girls will fall for each other and will live happy forever... Problem is such a show would end up with 8 episodes... instead, Carter created a show with real characters that do real stuff, not some romance fairy tale..

 

I repeat, what Amy did, is fully understandable in her situation. That girl just couldn't catch a break entire season. Between Love and Hate there is a very thin line, that can be easily crossed..

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No. It isn't about Karmy. That crashing and burning is fine. There are other girls on the show, and a story about a friendship *surviving* a crush? That would be new. And interesting. It's about.. Not Liam. That's not okay. 

 

Honestly, I hope he is trolling the pirates. It would be hypocritical as all hell, since MTV has been relying on piracy for marketing  - Global twitter trends do not happen on the basis of US-only broadcast and a geo-locked website, and they have been coordinating those. But it would be pretty funny to me. Meta-humor. 

 

Because the reason I am annoyed is that this ending breaks trust. The show was kind to it's characters. All of them. To Lauren, to her dork of a boyfriend.  Liam was not just a player - he was a player who had at least read the cliff-notes to the ethical slut, even if he didn't quite get the point, This ending isn't kind. And ending a season on it is not kind to the fandom. If "Random hookup with boy to make sure" is a plot station that it was really nessesary to tick of, taking Olivers virginity in episode .. 5 or so, would have been the way to go. Now, suddenly I don't trust Oliver to not show up at school with an AK, because that wouldn't be any more of a character break than this.. 

Edited by Izeinwinter
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ok, i see where problem is... a lot of people wanted some fantasy where two girls will fall for each other and will live happy forever... Problem is such a show would end up with 8 episodes... instead, Carter created a show with real characters that do real stuff, not some romance fairy tale..

 

I repeat, what Amy did, is fully understandable in her situation. That girl just couldn't catch a break entire season. Between Love and Hate there is a very thin line, that can be easily crossed..

I would not mind if Amy ended up with someone else besides Karma.  I would like to think that one of these two women would end up with a woman but that is based more on this being a situation where the premise, two women pretend to be lovers for popularity and for one to get a man, would be highly objectionable if it's endgame was for both women, who pretend to be lesbians, to be with men.  If the show does not begin with that premise I wouldn't be bothered if this had been about two women who both end up with guys. 

 

I highly doubt most people bothered by the ending are bothered because they ship Karmy.   I don't think they are bothered because they desire fantasy or something unrealistic - to be fair, the Liam/Amy hookup in which a woman besotted with a woman goes after that other woman's boyfriend isn't going to be mistake for cinéma vérité.  People are bothered, imo, for the most part because it is a tired trope common to the media representation of a minority, it comes across as contrived, and it demonstrates a creative bankruptcy.   

Edited by dohe
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but thats the thing... at that situation, Amy wanted to hurt Karma, but also hurt herself.. being broken like this, has some really bad effects on person, you really want to even punish yourself for being stuck like this..  i fully understand why she did it, and i don't blame her for this. yet, i'm not a teenager, i have a bit more experience in life so i have different perspective. This ending no matter how hard pill it was to swallow for some, will lead to very interesting beginning of second season.. for example i really hope Carter will make both girls meet in the line at grocery store as a reference to episode 4 ending..

 

only regret i have is that we will have to wait entire year to see how this plays out, and that would of course require MTV to first renew this show.. that leak of episode 8 will hurt ratings tremendously, which i hope MTV will consider.. dmn, i would even sue Apple for leaking this episode it was their fault..


I would not mind if Amy ended up with someone else besides Karma.  I would like to think that one of these two women would end up with a woman but that is based more on this being a situation where the premise, two women pretend to be lovers for popularity and for one to get a man, would be highly objectionable if it's endgame was for both women, who pretend to be lesbians, to be with men.  If the show does not begin with that premise I wouldn't be bothered if this had been about two women who both end up with guys. 

 

I highly doubt most people bothered by the ending are bothered because they ship Karmy.   I don't think they are bothered because they desire fantasy or something unrealistic - to be fair, the Liam/Amy hookup in which a woman besotted with a woman goes after that other woman's boyfriend isn't going to be mistake for cinéma vérité.  People are bothered, imo, for the most part because it is a tired trope common to the media representation of a minority, it comes across as contrived, and it demonstrates a creative bankruptcy.   

 

no. ask yourself a question - how exactly would Amy sleeping with some random guy or chick hurt Karma? She would not care at all... all she would want is to get back with Liam. Amy having a hate-sex with Liam will be something that will completely change the dynamic of this show... its something that can break even the greatest friendships, it require a lot of character to get through this..

 

Amy is not labeled as lesbian. She only had feelings for Karma, not other girls, yet she also felt something kissing Liam - remember, if you are in love with somebody, and you kiss that person, that kiss is for you the greatest thing you can experience... comparing to that kissing somebody else who you are not attracted to will never generate same feelings.. 

 

Amy might be a lesbian, she might be bi-sexual or even straight. She is confused 15-16 years old girl that just discovers her sexuality..

Edited by JaM

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but thats the thing... at that situation, Amy wanted to hurt Karma, but also hurt herself.. being broken like this, has some really bad effects on person, you really want to even punish yourself for being stuck like this..  i fully understand why she did it, and i don't blame her for this. yet, i'm not a teenager, i have a bit more experience in life so i have different perspective. This ending no matter how hard pill it was to swallow for some, will lead to very interesting beginning of second season.. for example i really hope Carter will make both girls meet in the line at grocery store as a reference to episode 4 ending..

 

only regret i have is that we will have to wait entire year to see how this plays out, and that would of course require MTV to first renew this show.. that leak of episode 8 will hurt ratings tremendously, which i hope MTV will consider.. dmn, i would even sue Apple for leaking this episode it was their fault..

 

no. ask yourself a question - how exactly would Amy sleeping with some random guy or chick hurt Karma? She would not care at all... all she would want is to get back with Liam. Amy having a hate-sex with Liam will be something that will completely change the dynamic of this show... its something that can break even the greatest friendships, it require a lot of character to get through this..

 

Amy is not labeled as lesbian. She only had feelings for Karma, not other girls, yet she also felt something kissing Liam - remember, if you are in love with somebody, and you kiss that person, that kiss is for you the greatest thing you can experience... comparing to that kissing somebody else who you are not attracted to will never generate same feelings.. 

 

Any might be a lesbian, she might be bi-sexual or even straight. She is confused 15-16 years old girl that just discovers her feelings..

This is rationalization of a trope and expect plenty of that rationalization by Carter after Tuesday.  However conflict between best friends can be obtained without a contrived ending that ties into the most tired trope in LGBT representation in the media.  Actually, in real life, the event of simultaneously coming out to someone and expressing romantic interest in that same person, provides plenty of dramatic potential.  For both Liam and Amy to feel used by Karma and for Karma to be alone at the end would have been the perfect ending in which we wait to see how things are resolved.  For Amy to enter a romance with a woman which shifts the Karma/Amy dynamic as friends and to have Karma begin to realize she is in love with the person who has moved on to someone else would be fascinating.  To have Karma unable to make a choice between two people is fascinating.  What is not fascinating but instead rather tired is the trope that any woman who loves a woman must have their journey go through a sexual experience with a guy. 

 

I think we are all aware that Amy has not labeled herself and she has only shown romantic interest in Karma.  This is actually kind of tiresome in itself.  Men are sure, for the most apart, about their sexuality when it comes to media representation.  Liam is straight.  Shane is gay.  It tends to be women that are shown saying maybe I love the person not the gender or having to figure out their sexuality by having sex to people they may not be sexually interested.  A woman can be karmasexual.  Liam, on the other hand, cannot be Shanesexual and Shane cannot be Laurensexual.  Also again it should be noted what the premise was.  If you tackle such a premise, there is a responsibility to do so with a certain respect for that minority.  Otherwise it is just exploitation of that minority without thoughtful representation. 

 

What was presented was the same old story.  That is the shame.  There was possibility there but ultimately the show, with the horrible premise, lived up the expectations of every naysayer who said it did not have the creativity to make this work without backfiring. 

Edited by dohe
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but Karma doesnt care about Amy this way... she would not care her dating any other girl.. learning she is with somebody would just encourage her to restore their friendship.. the way Carter did it gives for much more dramatic situation. and i repeat. 99% of people in that situation would act the same way as Amy did..

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I think that most of us here are far from being teenagers, but even on Tumblr where the fanbase is mostly younger, the outrage seems to be more about Amy sleeping with Liam than about Karma not having feelings for Amy. (There's a bit of that, obviously, but I've seen many people saying that they didn't expect Karma and Amy to end up together, at least not at the end of the first season.)

 

For Amy to enter a romance with a woman which shifts the Karma/Amy dynamic as friends and to have Karma begin to realize she is in love with the person who has moved on to someone else would be fascinating.

 

This is how I wanted it to play out (not even necessarily with Karma falling for Amy, either; it would be interesting enough if she simply felt like she was losing her best friend to another girl and that she was no longer the most important girl in Amy's life). I suppose this could still happen once we get past all of the Karma/Amy/Liam stuff.

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but majority of lesbians did actually slept with guy at least once..  so what happened is nowhere close to exploitation of that community.

 

i know teenage girls dont like what happened, yet, i bet they would do the same thing if they were in Amy's shoes... they just dont want to acknowledge it. 

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but Karma doesnt care about Amy this way... she would not care her dating any other girl.. learning she is with somebody would just encourage her to restore their friendship.. the way Carter did it gives for much more dramatic situation. and i repeat. 99% of people in that situation would act the same way as Amy did..

I highly doubt that 99% of people would attempt to have sex with their best friend's lover because the best friend rejected them romantically.  When I was a teen, I came out to my best friend and told him I loved him.  I was rejected.  I don't recall any desire to have sex with any of his former girlfriends.  I do recall our relationship being very different and conflicted from there on out.

 

The dynamic of relationships are fascinating.  Karma seeing Amy with another girl is something, even if Karma was to continue to identify straight, that has the capability of creating conflict and turmoil there.  Would Karma view herself as being replaced as a friend?  Would Karma be upset that Amy has a closeness with someone else she has never experienced?  It is one thing for a longtime friend to fall for someone.  It adds an intriguing dimension when that longtime friend falls for someone that shares the same gender as you. 

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I highly doubt that 99% of people would attempt to have sex with their best friend's lover because the best friend rejected them romantically.  When I was a teen, I came out to my best friend and told him I loved him.  I was rejected.  I don't recall any desire to have sex with any of his former girlfriends.  I do recall our relationship being very different and conflicted from there on out.

 

The dynamic of relationships are fascinating.  Karma seeing Amy with another girl is something, even if Karma was to continue to identify straight, that has the capability of creating conflict and turmoil there.  Would Karma view herself as being replaced as a friend?  Would Karma be upset that Amy has a closeness with someone else she has never experienced?  It is one thing for a longtime friend to fall for someone.  It adds an intriguing dimension when that longtime friend falls for someone that shares the same gender as you. 

that is fine, but you was not in the same situation... in context what happened entire season, and especially during that wedding, her actions are justifiable.

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Made an account here to weigh in. And again endorse the fact that this is not over a ship! I don't believe in endgame because characters grow and change and what seems like what they want isn't what they would want anymore. Karmy is not endgame. That's what people need to understand. I feel like that will happen possibly, but it will only be a step in a journey not the destination.

What I'm pissed and what everyone else is pissed about is that we gave this show a chance. After the title. After the premise. After Glee. Yes I bring up Glee because it is the prime example of what a writer can do to turn off an entire portion of their fan base. Despite all this we decided to give yet another writer a chance to tell a story - and they failed. Again. : / It's disheartening. When I saw it happen I was shocked. After all these writers and Glee I was shocked - because i genuinely gave it a freaking chance. And there it is - the 'confused girl' sleeps with guy out of lust/revenge. It's so sad to see this emerge. When willl it ever end? When we speak up about it. When we drown out the 'it's just a story' 'it's just a tv show' comments and shed light on what is being done in pretty much all stories being told on TV.

Not to mention I just don't see this being in Amy's character. Yeah she's emotional but this? Nope. Maybe with glasses mcmaddow - but not Liam. People are commenting on them editing out the last moments of the show but it's far too late. The damage is done. This is how you screw up a perfectly good show. SMH.

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Made an account here to weigh in. And again endorse the fact that this is not over a ship! I don't believe in endgame because characters grow and change and what seems like what they want isn't what they would want anymore. Karmy is not endgame. That's what people need to understand. I feel like that will happen possibly, but it will only be a step in a journey not the destination.

What I'm pissed and what everyone else is pissed about is that we gave this show a chance. After the title. After the premise. After Glee. Yes I bring up Glee because it is the prime example of what a writer can do to turn off an entire portion of their fan base. Despite all this we decided to give yet another writer a chance to tell a story - and they failed. Again. : / It's disheartening. When I saw it happen I was shocked. After all these writers and Glee I was shocked - because i genuinely gave it a freaking chance. And there it is - the 'confused girl' sleeps with guy out of lust/revenge. It's so sad to see this emerge. When willl it ever end? When we speak up about it. When we drown out the 'it's just a story' 'it's just a tv show' comments and shed light on what is being done in pretty much all stories being told on TV.

Not to mention I just don't see this being in Amy's character. Yeah she's emotional but this? Nope. Maybe with glasses mcmaddow - but not Liam. People are commenting on them editing out the last moments of the show but it's far too late. The damage is done. This is how you screw up a perfectly good show. SMH.

no, you just dont understand. It was not a lust situation at all.. she was hurt by Karma, she got drunk and wanted revenge.  Liam wanted the same. and as i said before, in such situations, person doesn't want to punish others, but also herself. it just saddens me you are unable to understand it. This show is great as it is. and i cant wait to see what will happen with second season if there will be any.

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