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Cranberry

S01.E08: Burnt Toast

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No, I get that. Rita Volk is every bit as good at expressing angry as every other emotion she tries her hand at. It was perfectly clear. No lack of understanding whatsoever. Merely a whole lot of unhappy.

 

Because it is just too goddess accursed dark a direction to take this show in. Faking it runs on adorable and Rita and Katies's ability to tie our heartstrings into knots. 

 

Go back to the beginning of this thread. Watch a clip or two. The dancing. The confession. Going from that to that end is.. okay, I just edited out my own similies because they would probably cost someone their lunch. 

 

Uhm. Watching those clips.. Amy could totally have Lauren if she wanted. 

Edited by Izeinwinter

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nope, it made perfect sense. you just need to keep in mind more than just this episode.. anger inside her was bigger than just because of this rejection.. 

 

ending the season with the Any + Karma scene alone, would give no real tension.. it would be season 1 all over again, with Karma trying to get Liam back.. but with the ending, once she learns what happened, it will be a huge. Who would you forgive? BFF or boyfriend? i guess neither (as most of people) thing is, Amy nor Liam might not even want her forgiveness.

 

Plus, it is not first time Carter did things like this.. just look at Hart of Dixie ending of season 1.. but of course i dont expect Amy and Liam ending together (even though, that would be quite a shock to everybody lol).

 

Ending with hate-sex was  a shock for many,  maybe too much considering majority of fans are teenage girls who don't appreciate reality until they experience something similar.

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I highly doubt that 99% of people would attempt to have sex with their best friend's lover because the best friend rejected them romantically.

They would not. Even the most generous statistics don't have results that show this much sexual fluidity. It amazes me that anyone can put a show over reality, but then again... fans are deluded again and again.

 

dohe, I agree about the dynamics of friendship and romantic interests that also replace you due to being your gender being the most interesting part the show could have explored. I doubt it will though, because it revealed its cards at the end and it's interested in the same tired story.

 

It was good for awhile though, which is more than most of us expected at the very beginning. Still, if the finale airs as-is, this is a show I won't be watching anymore. I never really cared if Amy and Karma end up together or not, never mind being endgame, but this? I have no interest in watching this; I've seen it enough times on TV - never in real life though, funny enough.

Edited by Crim
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@JaM, you can make your points without insinuating that everyone who disagrees with you is a teenage girl, or saying that people don't understand. People understand. They just don't like it.

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Made an account here to weigh in. And again endorse the fact that this is not over a ship! I don't believe in endgame because characters grow and change and what seems like what they want isn't what they would want anymore. Karmy is not endgame. That's what people need to understand. I feel like that will happen possibly, but it will only be a step in a journey not the destination.

What I'm pissed and what everyone else is pissed about is that we gave this show a chance. After the title. After the premise. After Glee. Yes I bring up Glee because it is the prime example of what a writer can do to turn off an entire portion of their fan base. Despite all this we decided to give yet another writer a chance to tell a story - and they failed. Again. : / It's disheartening. When I saw it happen I was shocked. After all these writers and Glee I was shocked - because i genuinely gave it a freaking chance. And there it is - the 'confused girl' sleeps with guy out of lust/revenge. It's so sad to see this emerge. When willl it ever end? When we speak up about it. When we drown out the 'it's just a story' 'it's just a tv show' comments and shed light on what is being done in pretty much all stories being told on TV.

Not to mention I just don't see this being in Amy's character. Yeah she's emotional but this? Nope. Maybe with glasses mcmaddow - but not Liam. People are commenting on them editing out the last moments of the show but it's far too late. The damage is done. This is how you screw up a perfectly good show. SMH.

Well said.  I think the harm of this trope is displayed in so many people thinking that a woman who loves a woman will almost always sleep with a man.  Would this viewpoint exist if it was not constantly asserted in media representation?  I have my doubts. 

 

JaM, why do you keep telling people they don't understand?  That is not nice and I, for one, have plenty of life experience and am not a teenager.  I have not seen one person who seems remotely confused by why Amy did what she did.  What I do see is a lot of posters are aware of the history of media representation of women sleeping with women and how it almost always involves having sex with men.  People don't seem to be hostile to the ending because it is some massive twist or it upset their Karmy shipping.  They are upset because, before the show began and Carter said it would be different, this is what they expected of it.  They defended the show against naysayers who said, based on the premise, both women will end up sleeping with guys.  As viewers they put their trust in this time it being different.

Edited by dohe
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look, you just probably need to rewatch entire season... you would see that Amy easily slips, and gets almost irrationally angry.. she got angry at her mother in Episode 2 before interview (quite interesting to watch how it just ticked in her, and she went off), then again in Episode 5 fighting with Lauren, (which was at first stopped by Karma, but she was not able to stop her second time) taking down Croquebouche... Amy does behave irrationally when angry. her actions in last episode are understandable on every level. When waiter turned her down, her expression and  sentence "I HAVE ENOUGH" was priceless.. it perfectly summed all she was put through, you could see it in her face.. then she slipped again...

 

 

personally i dont care about premise to the show, or people expectations that they wont sleep with guys.. ending was well written, probably the best episode of entire season (i only like episode 6 more). I'm sick of all that labeling and comparation to other shows.. if people are unable to see how different this show is, it is their fault.

 

and dont forget, when these interviews were made, show was already filmed with that ending... did you expect Carter just spill the beans and spoil the ending right at the start?

Edited by JaM

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@JaM No one is disputing that Amy is an emotional person who acts without thinking. People are explaining why they find a (presumed) lesbian character sleeping with a guy problematic.

 

You can keep debating, but you need to stop telling people they don't understand. They understand. You're just arguing about two different things.

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then go and ask real lesbians if they ever slept with guys.. you will be surprised by their answers..  lots of them had boyfriends during high school, knowing what you are during high school is actually quire rare. It is not like you wake up one day and know you are lesbian/gay..

 

Recently Carter Covington in response to someone's tweet wrote:

"I know all signs point to lesbian, but is it your intention that Amy's sexuality remain ambiguous? If so, why?"
responded:
"I think she's trying to figure it out and it'll take a while - and a few mistakes - before she figures it out."

Edited by JaM

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no, you just dont understand. It was not a lust situation at all.. she was hurt by Karma, she got drunk and wanted revenge.  Liam wanted the same. and as i said before, in such situations, person doesn't want to punish others, but also herself. it just saddens me you are unable to understand it. This show is great as it is. and i cant wait to see what will happen with second season if there will be any.

 

First let me just say that I'm not one of those who's upset that Amy slept with a guy

Now please explain...

 

Please justify your best friend sleeping with someone that took your virginity the day before? 

Would you honestly forgive your best friend if they did that to you?

If the intention was to hurt Karma, well that will definitely do it, but is the show's intention to not have these two be friends again? ever? or at all? 

If she was sober enough to go up the stairs then she was sober enough to make better judgement so please stop with the she was drunk. Being drunk is NEVER an excuse and I pray that you never learn that the hard way.

 

Please justify a show (gay or straight) that says it's okay to reward a guy who have absolutely no respect for women by giving him 2, 15 year old virgins on a silver platter? It happens...I know!!! but in a way that tell teens it's okay?? IDK

 

How exactly can the Amy character be redeemed after that? 8 episodes of making her likeable and it took only 10 seconds to take all that way.

The nail digging was pretty telling that they had sex so spare me the we don't know yet. How many people do that when they're just kissing. 

 

IDK, I will still watch if there's a second season but it also wouldn't bother me one bit if it were to get canceled. If this is just the beginning I'd hate to see what else they have up their sleeve to create more angst and drama. Then again, they can always blame it on the alcohol...

Also, please stop using the word "understandable" and switch it to believable. 

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I was a little disappointed by the ending, but I don't feel strongly about this episode one way or the other, so I don't have a horse in this race. However, for most people who dislike this trope, it isn't that they find the idea of a questioning female character sleeping with a guy unrealistic (yes, many lesbians have slept with men before figuring themselves out), but that this is how it seems to play out all the time on television. Like dohe has pointed out a few times, questioning (or even self-proclaimed lesbian) characters kiss or sleep with guys frequently on television, but questioning male characters very rarely experiment with women, and self-proclaimed gay male characters rarely have hate-sex or grief-sex or pity-sex with women. This can make it look like female sexuality is never set, while male sexuality always is.

 

I'm of two minds about it. On one hand, I can name a lot of out lesbian characters who have kissed or slept with men, and taken together, I think that can give some viewers the impression that any lesbian can be "turned," which is problematic. However, on the other hand, if I judge each project individually, often I understand the choice or find it realistic for that specific character. (Not MTV's Skins, though. Fuck that noise.) I'm not sure whether each writer should care more about their creative vision for their own show, or about how their story choices can contribute to problematic impressions of lesbians in general.

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Unfortunately this is a very emotional subject for some people and they are going to have a very emotional reaction. Also Faking It suffers from having been a show that has to carry baggage for a lot of other shows before it. Even if they have their own spin it will just get lumped in with other shows that did something similar no matter how good their story may become.For me, I am someone who watches lots of TV so I mainly watch for the story and if it entertains me. I don't need shows to tell stories that I feel like are relatable to my own life but I know that people often do and there's nothing wrong with it. They want to see a good positive story of their own lives/struggles on screen especially if it doesn't often get portrayed.

 

I will say I can't believe the thought that Carter is somehow worse than Ryan Murphy in his portrayal of lesbians because really that's absurd. I mean Murphy has done far worse in Nip/Tuck, Glee and AHS and has been a lot more antagonistic. Of course we'll see if the show gets picked up how everyone reacts to the criticism.

 

The show seems to have really overestimated people's reaction to Liam. I don't think they expected the fandom to be so one sided against him. They didn't do him a lot of favors of course in how he was being written. If they get a 2nd season, he will need to really be retooled. I think the best thing that can be done is put him more in the background and show his friendship with Shane more. A good first start might be him being the one to stop it.

 

Going by what was said that the ending of ep 8 is supposed to be a major cliffhanger, I don't think it is for certain that they have slept together even with the nail digging. I've only seen some GIF's but I assume that it is one continuous shot from them in their underwear on the bed then going to the naildigging while panning up to the picture. I do think the show wanted to leave itself an out just in case.

 

Of course either way there has been major damage to Karma and Amy's friendship which I think the 2nd season would be the major focus.

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Cranberry: have you seen Date and Switch? there you will see a gay guy sleeping with his former girlfriend after he proclaimed he is gay, just because they were both drunk.. it is not something completely impossible, it happens all the time.

 

i actually feel a bit sorry for Liam. Yes, first few episodes he was a jerk, anyway, he fall for Karma and tried to change. He was not guilty of breaking them up. Yes, he is typical player, and he got played by Karma.. i think we will see (hopefully if season 2 happens) his further development, most likely his struggle with his parents, which might explain why he was the way he was initially.

 

I really like the character development in this show. From totally unlikable character like Lauren was, she ended up being quite positive character, their last scene with Amy was really great.

 

Karma at the other side, while she was not completely negative character entire show, she put together lies over lies over lies. I'm glad she ended up like this, karma is bitch (not Katie Stevens character, but real karma), it always kick you when you think everything is fine..

 

and once again, Amy. yes, she was drunk, but not completely drunk - that would actually most likely prevent her doing what she did (nothing kills mood better than girl vomiting at you). She was heartbroken, therefore angry. She was angry at Karma for (unintentionally - threesome) playing with her, angry at herself to let herself go with all of this, and angry at Liam. All this feelings combined with that single moment and her usual temper for revenge no matter of consequences resulted in what happened. you cannot take one of those reasons and make it more significant than the other. it was a "perfect" combination for disaster to happen. even though, who knows...we might see some Amy & Liam bonding afterwards, it would not surprise me at all...

Edited by JaM
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Amy's sexuality has never been confirmed however, there are tweets from the director saying things like 'never give up' 'anything is possible' to the fanbase. Who. Does. That. Sound. Like. The thing is Jamz I get where you're coming from and understand where they are taking it but I don't agree that this is new and fresh. What my issue is, is that this has BEEN DONE. Repeatedly. The journey for a 'fluid' character nearly always begins or intercedes with a penis- angry/drunk or not. And after I gave this show a chance, after reading about two girls actively pretending to be lesbians for popularity I watched. We watched hoping they would get it right - but they just didn't. This was an epic fail and what's so sad is that like the creator of this thread said - this episode was perfect!

As for Liam - I'm not a fan and not because he slept with Amy. I dislike him because he reminds me so much of other men they've jammed into these situations and try to make use either like or feel sorry for them. He was such a jerk and then they ruin the two female leads and what happens to him?Then I read comments like this on the internet:

'Oh, he was hurt. How could she lie to him? Poor Liam. '
'Amy's a b**** she slept with her best friends love interest!'
'Kharma got what she deserved!'

Look at the above sentences and tell me that isn't foul. What a terrible spin to put on the two female leads and have Liam the lesbian hunter seem like the lesser of evils. Not eveyone is thinking like the above examples, but some people are feeling as if Liam has no wrong doing in this. That is messed up.

I feel like I've been kind of queerbaited. They lured the 'queer' audience in and they just gave me Quinn/Rachel/Finn with actual text and not fan pandered subtext. Had I had known that Liam would be so very front and center - I wouldn't have bothered with it in the first place. I signed up to see where the friendship would go naturally. That isn't to say I signed up to see them together. I wanted to see what twists and turns would be made but not Liam bedding them both. It's something just so wrong about that.

I wouldn't be suprised if Amy isn't a lesbian, bi or into women at all. Which again is fine. I don't want her to be a lesbian at this point because then it would be just another stereotype of lesbians trying men first or being with a man to repress feelings or yadda yadda yadda. I didn't. I know other's that havent. I'm sick of hearing that whole 'MOST LESBIANS DID' crap. That's a tired argument suited for this tired trope.

And now people are calling lesbians who are against this show - biphobic. Amy has no label right - so how can we be biphobic? If people can assume Amy is bi - can't others assume she's a lesbian or will become one?

I can't place it because I'm not as good with words as the author of this thread - but it just left a bad taste in my mouth. They are going to keep Amy 'fluid' mostly so they can appease both audiences I think. As a convenience and a gigantic cop out. Either way - I'm done faking it (ha) for writers. I'm done supporting things I don't like in the name of visibility. If this is good visibility I don't want it.

The worst thing that can happen though is if he comes out being defensive. He needs to ignore the crazies and speak to the people who are presenting him their thoughts respectfully and speak to them in kind. I don't want him to explain this to me because I'm over him and this show but he owes the women watching this who disagree at least a chance to air their grievances.

What sucks worse is that this backlash is nothing but publicity for him and the show I bet ratings rise slightly and visibilty to the GA increases. And once the Finchel, excuse me, Kiam fans emerge and drown out others interested in aspects outside of shipping well...we know how that goes...


 

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i think you are way too fatalistic.. when you are 15-16, your first relationship most likely wont last.. teenagers make mistakes, and even if writers might end up putting Karma and Amy back together as an end game, it doesn't mean they will be together the whole show. Personally i just hope we will get second season, and they will not end it with cliffhanger again.. or i would suggest them to make 2 different endings for the show, then release ending based on chances for renewal.. that should be the golden standard of all TV show, but nobody is doing their fans this kind of a favour..

Edited by JaM

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I suppose but in regards to these types of storylines, has there ever been someting to be optimistic about? What's even more maddening is that he tried to set himself aside from a show I believe his show may have more in common with than he thinks. The thing is, they shouldn't have to make 2 seperate endings. They should be able to write and produce quality material the first go round. The only mistake about the finale, in my opinion, is the complete assasination of Amy's character and her cliche road to discovery.

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and here i dont agree with you. they didnt assassinated Amy character. They made her more interesting.. i watched the 8th episode several times already, and i'm fine with how it ended.. it was a perfect storm for those two to end up in bed.. Lauren sitting next to Amy blocked Shane to talk to her,   he would be probably the only person who could stop it from happening, but he was busy with Pablo.. plus, that last scene happened most likely few hours after Karma left, which means Amy had plenty of time to get drunk, so did Liam (her hair were fine while talking to Lauren, yet they were off when she talked with that waitress) Amy practically fell to the "dark side", (Karma was out of picture) and wanted revenge against Karma, against herself and against Liam. Love and Hate are very close emotions.. it is so easy to slip from one to another... just look at her face when she spotted Liam.. it says it all..

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Eh, honestly, at the end of the day, the fan base will probably forgive Amy, because Rita, and because the character has a lot of goodwill banked. 

 

But this end nukes Liam from orbit. Then it salts the ground with polonium. And he doesn't have any goodwill stored up to offset this shit. 

After he had it out with Karma he was: Sober, angry, and in possession of The Facts, A Mercedes and A Platinum Card. Going of his previously established character, dawn should have found him in bed with a casual hookup and reading Shane the riot act re: Secrets via text. 

 

This episode was doing pretty well on the Liam front. The line about not wanting to be one of those women on doctor Phil ? That was comedy gold. And while he read Karma the riot act, his anger in that scene was appropriate for the situation. Didn't get physical, didn't get loud, just straight up dumped her and made it clear she had lost his trust. That? That part was healthy anger. 

 

But then he decides to hang out outside that wedding getting progressively drunker for hours. That part? That is some next level malice. There are no good reasons for him to do that. That is the behavior of someone working themselves up to do something unforgivable. If he had met Amy in a bar ? That would be one thing. Pretty contrived, but less vile. He did not. He was hanging around looking for an opportunity to hurt Karma. And that is how he saw Amy. Not as a person in her own right, but as an instrument with which to hurt his ex. 

 

I am tired of talking about it because it just makes me upset - On more positive notes: I liked Amy's grandmother a tonne, and suspect she would come around eventually. The references to Farrah's ill luck with relationships were funny, but still pitched at a level where I don't expect this marriage to implode, Lauren was priceless - Every little beat of her character rang like a silver bell, and her bobbing along to the Karmy dance? So glorious. Amy calming down and giving that amazing toast once she saw Karma just made me go "awww"

Pablo admitting that he works at being that nice ? And the whole "Wait until gay marriage" bit had me in tears because it is such an implosion of normal political boundaries. 

Edited by Izeinwinter
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I understand how you got that and again I saw what they were trying to convey but there's a bigger picture here that you have in all your responses yet to acknowledge.  Who are you trying to convince? Me...or...? There is nothing wrong with adding another layer to a character but turning her vengeful only plays into more tropes already existing for women as well. There were some other points made above about what they could have done instead of going the route often taken that would have been just as effective. This is lazy.

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but this ending is much more powerful than any other... it adds much more emotions to what will happen next than any alternatives mentioned in this thread. This is something that breaks even best friends for life. it will require a whole another level of love to forgive.. Last time i saw something like that was pulled of on One Tree Hill  season 3 when Brook slept with Chris Keller and Lucas forgiving her, which was one incredibly strong scene..

Edited by JaM

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"Much more powerful than any other" is overselling it. A creative writing team could have come up with a number of compelling alternatives.

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"Much more powerful than any other" is overselling it. A creative writing team could have come up with a number of compelling alternatives.

Agree 100%! They are in the first season, they aren't bound by much in regards to how they want to end it. This ending was not compelling...it was typical and heavy handed. Also, this is a show about girl's pretending to be lesbians and their is nary a lesbian in sight the entire first season. Ha.

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It's powerful in the way a bomb is. It destroys. 

I see the attraction of having Amy do something ill-advised in this situation, but I feel it should be something more open-ended. "Doing" Lauren would.. probably not turn into a long term relationship, but she has a long term relationship with Lauren regardless, and it having a sexual history added to it would be potentially amusing. 

Or heck, have them start, have Lauren cop to being trans (I am pretty sure she is.), "Dont care" cut to black. 

 

Or for more comedic direction, have her first time be an actual threesome. The hot twins, or just a shot of Amy waking up in a bed, cuddling a lady, then have a second lady move in on the cuddle pile. For maximum hilarity, do this with Jasmine and the previously unseen friend J had a crush on.  

Edited by Izeinwinter

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Well I am not sure what ending they could have done. I have my own ideas but that would be based on where I think the show would go. I am not sure where the writers plan on taking the show so who knows how this ending fits in. That's why I really need to see what would happen next year. I also think that show shouldn't concern itself with other shows that may have done things similar as long as they feel they are doing things they need for their story. Of course if it turns out that it gets badly resolved next season, if there is one, then I will have a major problem with this ending then.

 

I did have one thought about how/why they may not go all the way. They are in Amy's room so maybe next season they open up with Amy seeing the stars that Karma put up and that causes her to stop.

 

ETA: Rita Volk acknowledged the leaked ep and the reaction in a couple of tweets basically stating that she would be responding to the fans reaction after the ep airs on Tuesday. She also thanked the fans for their on going support.

Edited by ybrik
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Personally, i dont think Liam is a negative character. While his motives in first 2 episodes were a bit whacky, he behaved way too proper in regards to Karma & Amy. I think Writers could add at least one episode to show his struggle wiht his parents a  bit more to better see what is his background and why he wanted to be blamed for everything.. i even think his initial goals were an act, to somehow punish his parents or something..Yes, usually it was him who played with girls like with toys, anyway, it all got back to him with Karma toying with him. She could told him the truth much sooner (for example in episode 5 instead of proposing the threesome), instead, she kept the act going hurting all around her.. She wanted to have Liam much more than he wanted to sleep with lesbian. Imagine roles would reverse and Karma character would be male, i bet it would be the most hated character in the show, anyway just because Karma is the Amy's love interest, everybody gives her a slack and all anger is put towards Liam...

 

One thing i like about this show is the fact that every character is grey, nobody is pure good or pure evil.. they all do controversial things, that have consequences impacting them and people around them.

 

 

from one old Q&A wiht C.Covington:

 

Q:With the premise of the show being what it is— two girls faking their sexuality— how long can the show continue?

 

A: I will tell you that in the finale of this first season, that comes to a head. I won’t give away any more than that, but in the finale of these eight episodes, it will really blow up. It will set us up for a really great season two where the repercussions of that play out.

Edited by JaM

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I'm sick of hearing that whole 'MOST LESBIANS DID' crap. That's a tired argument suited for this tired trope.

I wouldn't call it a "trope" though.  To me a trope is something that's given life in fiction, not a real life phenomenon that fiction portrays.  I'm gay, and the vast majority of lesbians I know did have sex with a guy at some point in their teens.  I'm rare amongst all the gay women I know for being "gold star" as they say.  Now whether the audience understands that is another matter. But it doesn't imply fluidity to me at all.  It's just part of the normal journey en route to the realization that one is a giant 'mo.

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I suppose...I won't be watching personally nothing against those who do in anyway. Lost the appeal for me. I don't like the fact that people say this is a normal process. It is for some but not for all. I respect everyone's thoughts on this but I still just don't agree. The fact that tv shows perpetuate this is disturbing to me. It's so done to death and not everyone's journey. I wish someone would get it right for the 'gold stars'. Where's our representation? Where's our visibility? Jokes on me for thinking it would be on MTV though, for real. Again this is not to say that my journey is better than someone who has had any type of sexual interaction with a male. I'm just saying why can't for once the journey just NOT include a male. Why is that so hard to put into writing? *shrugs*

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I wouldn't call it a "trope" though.  To me a trope is something that's given life in fiction, not a real life phenomenon that fiction portrays.  I'm gay, and the vast majority of lesbians I know did have sex with a guy at some point in their teens.  I'm rare amongst all the gay women I know for being "gold star" as they say.  Now whether the audience understands that is another matter. But it doesn't imply fluidity to me at all.  It's just part of the normal journey en route to the realization that one is a giant 'mo.

A trope is an overused plot device.  It doesn't matter if that event happens in real life or not.  Some gay men have open relationships for example.  Not all gay men do.  If the media representation of gay men overwhelmingly shows them in open relationships that is a trope.   An example of a trope would be a lesbian* having impulsive sex with a guy.  It is tired.  It is overused.  It is a cliché.  It is a sign of creative bankruptcy.  There are other stories to tell.

I suppose...I won't be watching personally nothing against those who do in anyway. Lost the appeal for me. I don't like the fact that people say this is a normal process. It is for some but not for all. I respect everyone's thoughts on this but I still just don't agree. The fact that tv shows perpetuate this is disturbing to me. It's so done to death and not everyone's journey. I wish someone would get it right for the 'gold stars'. Where's our representation? Where's our visibility? Jokes on me for thinking it would be on MTV though, for real. Again this is not to say that my journey is better than someone who has had any type of sexual interaction with a male. I'm just saying why can't for once the journey just NOT include a male. Why is that so hard to put into writing? *shrugs*

I am with you.  I was sad to hear the show was renewed.  At this point it doesn't seem to have much original or fresh to say.  As for the it's the normal comment, a friend brought this show's twist up with me and several of my friends including my sister and her wife. Of my lesbian friends, only 1 said she had ever had sex with a man.  My sister raised a good point.  She wonders if shows always go this route to keep people, who like the woman loving woman but would rather she be straight, interested in that character.  As if they can hope that character ends up with a man in the end.  Food for thought. 

 

*Rita, in what is probably an attempt at damage control, has now confirmed that Amy is a lesbian.  It is hard to read this because it is the same old nonsensical rationalization and only makes it worse. 

 

http://community.ew.com/2014/06/09/faking-it-stars-talk-real-life-faking-it/

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Edited by dohe
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As for the it's the normal comment, a friend brought this show's twist up with me and several of my friends including my sister and her wife. Of my lesbian friends, only 1 said she had ever had sex with a man.  My sister raised a good point.  She wonders if shows always go this route to keep people, who like the woman loving woman but would rather she be straight, interested in that character.  As if they can hope that character ends up with a man in the end.  Food for thought. 

 

*Rita, in what is probably an attempt at damage control, has now confirmed that Amy is a lesbian.  It is hard to read this because it is the same old nonsensical rationalization and only makes it worse. 

 

http://community.ew.com/2014/06/09/faking-it-stars-talk-real-life-faking-it/

 

Your sister I believe is right on the money. What most people don't notice is that this type of behavior displayed on TV shows trivializes lesbianism. It plays into this belief that lesbians can be coaxed into sex with men given certain circumstances. It plays into lesbianism being a phase and I am shocked so many of us are baring our fangs and defending this show.

I know people are afraid to be that 'angry lesbian blogger' and are terrified that if we pick apart every show that tries it that eventually people will stop trying. This may be true but all visibility is simply not good visibility. Not to mention they spoon-fed the two female characters to the male lead who had sleeping with a lesbian on his bucket list. Wow. Wow!! This show is problematic. Seriously. This is such a let down. Such a shame they gracefully jumped over so many boundaries only to fall smack-dab on their bottoms.

 

The damage control for this episode has been handled very sloppily. And someone needs to take that twitter account away from that Katie girl - she's letting a few rabblerousers get to her. She's got to grow a thicker skin and they both should have been prepped for this in the long time frame when the leak occurred. Who is managing this thing? That's not to say offensive things being tweeted to her should be condoned, i'm just saying I've seen bigger celebrities take on worse. The interview had terrible timing. Terrible. And I feel like they think this somehow satisfies us when really, it's only fanning the flames. Now it confirms the trope, it confirms the un-orginality and the cliche 'commercial' coming out process. The bottom line is this, Carter should not use words like 'fresh' for something that is so incredibly stale.

 

And I don't want anyone here to get it twisted, if it is revealed that Amy and Liam did not have sex next season it is not because it was planned. It is because they are backpedaling faster than John Mccain - and you have to be incredibly fast to do that. Based on the tweets from Katie - Liam and Amy got busy. I hope people aren't naive enough to think this is going to be interrupted or stopped next season.

And back to her this is what she put on Twitter:

When watching the finale tomorrow, before you tweet, ask yourself: Did you have everything figured out when you were 15? #fakingitfinale

 

I was utterly shocked that any of her handlers let her keep this up let alone release it. A valid question yes but one that seemed to add more kindling. Someone on tumblr posed the question - how many girls did she have to sleep with to determine she was straight? That is a very valid question as well. She needs to be more careful. Then this whole 'victim' act. I am trying so hard not to dislike her as a person - but she's making it incredibly hard. : /

 

Not to mention, I think they are trying to use Rita's popularity to keep the fans in check. More manipulation - well done sirs and madams. Well done.

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so much hate just because they shattered your dream of perfect lesbian?... i dont understand you guys...

Edited by JaM

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@JaM -- Again, you can state your opinion about the show without insulting other posters. I don't want to have to tell you this again.

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I thought Rita handled it as well as anyone could be expected to, actually.

I get the disappointment among those who want to see their own journey reflected and now haven't, but I wish people would chill on the vitriol towards Rita, personally.

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Okay in regards to Rita's quote it should be remembered that this interview more than likely took place over a week ago if not earlier so she may have answered with this ep in mind but the interview was not damage control. This would have just part of promotions they would have been doing.

Also if we find out that they stopped next season maybe it was because of the fans reaction maybe not. However if it is so what? It's TV they film so far in advance that things get changed all the time. As I posted elsewhere I don't think they expected Liam to be as universely unpopular with the fans. I am sure they may have made changes to a few things in season one if they were still filming when the show premiered. They didn't so they have make these adj in season two.

I am interested in seeing the full ep tonight after only seeing a couple of clips.

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If it stops, it is most likely to stop because as someone else pointed out - that bed is under the stars Karmy put up together, so it's a halt point which has foreshadowing. Rita has in general handled things very well indeed. 

Edited by Izeinwinter
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so much hate just because they shattered your dream of perfect lesbian?... i dont understand you guys...

JaM I've been respectful towards your opinion please do the same for mine. I am not a 'hater'. Nothing I have said has been remotely hate it has been my opinion which you seem to be hellbent on spinning into it. But if that's how ya' feel - carry on. If you don't understand there are ways to ask for an explanation, one's that don't make you sound like a juvenile fan-girl. Also, nothing about my journey (a male-less one mind you) has been easy. Nothing about my journey was 'perfect'. You can't seriously be gay right? There is no way you can be and think this kind of thinking and speaking is right or okay? Shocking. There are hardships in everyone's life so I'm not playing the violin here and by no means stating my journey is better than anyone's. I've said that several times before. A lesbian that has not slept with a man is not perfect - it's just another version of a sometimes difficult journey that I'd hope to see with this TV show. I hope that's simplified enough for you to understand.

 

 

I thought Rita handled it as well as anyone could be expected to, actually.

I get the disappointment among those who want to see their own journey reflected and now haven't, but I wish people would chill on the vitriol towards Rita, personally.

People sending hate and being rude need to calm down in all honestly. There are ways to express your disagreement without being insulting. People are upset and this Katie girl is trivializing it with crappy logic. As for Rita, she is doing the best she can and I think fans will go easy on her. She's a pretty girl and very likable so I can see why. Hopefully the above didn't make it seem like I 'hate' either of them. I don't and I don't condone anything any upsets fans maybe doing or saying but hopefully the air is cleared and both sides get to explain why they feel the way they feel. It's just that this girls (Katies) twitter feed is just off-putting atm. I don't even have a twitter, people were sending me her tweets and she's ranting like a 15 year old girl. She's got to get off the gas and ignore the crazies.

 

Also if we find out that they stopped next season maybe it was because of the fans reaction maybe not. However if it is so what? It's TV they film so far in advance that things get changed all the time. As I posted elsewhere I don't think they expected Liam to be as universely unpopular with the fans. I am sure they may have made changes to a few things in season one if they were still filming when the show premiered. They didn't so they have make these adj in season two.

 

 

Some of the things he's said and done though and his whinyness  - how could they not expect him to be slightly disliked amongst lesbians. Also he isn't as disliked as you would think which to me is the real shocker.

Wasn't this show supposed to be a comedy?

 

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If it stops, it is most likely to stop because as someone else pointed out - that bed is under the stars Karmy put up together, so it's a halt point which has foreshadowing. Rita has in general handled things very well indeed. 

 

thats quite probable, even though, letting it happen, while definitely will make some fans angry, brings a lot more conflict to the story (even though, even attempt to speep with him could be quite explosive to Karma at this point..)

 

JaM I've been respectful towards your opinion please do the same for mine.

 

i appologize if it sounded disrespectful, it was not my intention. A lot of reactions i read about this show are idealizing the characters, and when this ideal is shattered people get angry with writers, even  though they stated in the begining this story is about good people doing bad decisions, they are not supposed to be rolemodels by example, but opposite.

 

i just ask for a bit less criticizm towards actors, while i agree Katie let her cool down way too easily, she is 21 years old, and this is her first major public exposure (besides Idol few years back)

Edited by JaM

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Agreed but how long are we going to allow people to get away with certain behaviors because of youth? I understand where you're coming from and I know people can be very protective of things/people they like. I too apologize if I have offended you in anyway. : )

I could agree the stars thing could come into play - I'm just not going to buy it as anything less than back-pedaling at this point in my opinion.

Lastly, I know people and stars and shows come out and say all the time they don't want to be role models. I get it but look who they are catering to. Impressionable youth. Not myself, I'm way past role models but there are kids watching this show. Whether they like it or not they have some responsibility to them and to tell this story in a way that is not problematic. They've already failed once in that department IMO (If they go down the route of Liam and Amy sleeping together - which I'm sure is/was the original plan). Hopefully, they can be better for those who choose to continue to watch.

 

I'm so glad we are able to have a healthy discussion on this, I think I just found my new favorite TV forum.

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Lastly, I know people and stars and shows come out and say all the time they don't want to be role models. I get it but look who they are catering to. Impressionable youth. Not myself, I'm way past role models but there are kids watching this show. Whether they like it or not they have some responsibility to them and to tell this story in a way that is not problematic. They've already failed once in that department IMO (If they go down the route of Liam and Amy sleeping together - which I'm sure is/was the original plan). Hopefully, they can be better for those who choose to continue to watch.

 

actually here i think they always went for  example by "bad decision been made" and its replications. After all Karma got what she deserved for all those lies, and if they will go with Amy sleeping with Liam, i'll bet my year salary she will deeply regret doing it afterwards.  It is actually this what dragged me to this show originally, even though i started to watch it just as a filler because series i was watching already finished their run.. I like the concept of showing youths what will come from bad decisions because usually they think they can do anything as if they were invincible .. (i was the same back then) In this aspect, this TV show is fresh to me :)

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.... Disliked among lesbians?.. There was a really hilarious poll on the MTV site.. one second: http://www.mtv.com/news/1837617/faking-it-liam-amy-karma-love-triangle/

94 % Amy, 6%   Liam. I'm sure the viewer's of this show skew heavily gay and probably female, to, but.. not that much.

 

It's funny, because in many ways Liam is the platonic ideal of a type of character that usually attracts a rabid fan following willing to exuse any level of asshattery (I am looking at you, Salvatore Brothers!)- Dark, handsome, brooding. Not actually a vampire, but well.. and instead everyone just calls him hottie doucheface and such. After this episode I kind of expect that to be upgraded to "teen satan" 

Edited by Izeinwinter
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Okay, folks, here's the deal.

 

PTV has one rule: don't be a dick. Unfortunately, we're starting to get reports about this forum. When that happens, we start tightening up our standards and scrutinizing the forum more closely.

 

So...

People here are allowed to hate-watch, they're allowed to love-watch, they're allowed the entire range of opinion about the characters and the show. You can say whatever you want about the show and differ with your fellow posters, as long as you disagree with respect.

 

Also, please use paragraph breaks, capitalization at the beginning of sentences, etc. That's not a rule, but it makes posts more readable and is courteous. It also shows that you're willing to be part of the solution and not the problem. 

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another interview with Riva Volk:

 

The finale leaked recently. For those who haven’t seen it or read the spoilers what’s in store for Karma and Amy’s relationship?

Things are going to get tested. Without saying too much, unfortunately there is stuff that is already out there. Every characters journey up to that point starts to unravel, everyone winds up realizing the repercussions of their actions. Especially for Karma, and for Amy that’s when she gets really fed up with everything. The eighth episode is really the last straw for her and everything kind of hits the fan for everybody.

 

 

 

http://www.thetvaddict.com/2014/06/10/we-shine-the-spotlight-on-faking-it-star-rita-volk/

Edited by JaM

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To add onto what Bella said, writers/actors are open to more criticism than your fellow posters are. It's okay to say that you think Carter or Katie are handling the situation badly. It's not okay to say that your fellow posters are haters.

 

I'm so glad we are able to have a healthy discussion on this, I think I just found my new favorite TV forum.

 

Glad to hear it! We're happy to have you (all of you).

 

I'll likely merge this thread with the Burnt Toast episode thread tonight after the finale airs, so don't be alarmed, everyone!

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I agree that Rita has handled the criticism very well thus far, though i am sure there will be a lot more after tonight and more people see what occured.

She is keeping it cool, which will serve her well. There is a career out there far beyond this silly little show waiting for her very soon. No reason to get involved in a bunch of nonsense with fans on twitter right now.

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I saw it. I understand why people are upset, but it is a cliff hanger, meaning we don't know if Liam/Amy do the deed. I'd bet a nice creamy croquenbouche they do not have intercouse.

 

I think it is a BS way of evening up the characters, btw. Amy has been the "victim," so now she does something really stupid too. I don't think they thought the fandom would be so one sided.

 

Of course, a drunk, broekn-hearted 15-year-odl acting out is not really villianous.

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Okay watched the finale. I liked it. The ending definitely upsetting. However, I have seen more good on the show than bad that I am willing to see where they are going with this. However, it seems the answer to the cliffhanger is already answered:

 

http://www.buzzfeed.com/louispeitzman/whats-next-for-karma-and-amy-after-the-shocking-season-final

 

Only going by the reactions this was first time seeing the ending in context with the whole episode. I was really surprised how on edge Amy was the whole episode. Karma having to calm Amy down from making a scene earlier should have been a sign that Amy was going to be doing something stupid.

 

I think the finale set up a lot of potentially interesting storylines for next year. Shane really is pushing it because I don't think he really believes he can wait for marriage with Pablo. Based on the article above Lauren's pills storyline will get explored and when will be revealed will have been obvious in hindsight.

 

Not sure if allowed or if admin would have to do it but thinking of opening a thread for a wish list for season 2.

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Haha, Carter was prepared. He did an interview with Buzzfeed that just went up:

 

Let’s start by setting the record straight, as it were. Amy slept with Liam. Does that mean she’s suddenly into guys?

 

Carter Covington: No.

 

So what is the situation there?

 

CC: I think it’s important for everyone to stay calm and recognize that Amy was hurt (more hurt than she’s ever been), drunk, and angry. And she made a mistake, a mistake that will haunt her in the next season. My intention was and never will be for Amy and Liam to develop a romance. I think that that would undermine the journey Amy’s been on. But that being said, Amy has not self-identified as a lesbian. People have put that on her. And I know that our lesbian fans really connect to and relate to her, and I’m so glad that they do, but they’re putting an ending on her journey that we haven’t finished yet. And I really want her to be able to explore whether or not she’s attracted to men, and where that fits in her vision of herself and her sexuality.

 

So the Amy-Liam sex is much more a drunken mistake than an act of passion?

 

CC: It is an act of anger. Both her and Liam are acting out against Karma. What we called it in the writers’ room was ‘Fuck you, Karma sex.’

 

You mentioned that Amy hasn’t self-identified as a lesbian. What conversations have you had in the writers’ room about where you’d like her and Karma to end up in terms of their sexualities? Or is that something you’re purposely leaving open?

 

CC: I would like to state categorically that Amy is not straight and will never be straight. So we’re not gonna be like, ‘Surprise! It was a phase.’ That, to me, is offensive as a gay person. I care about Amy so much as a character that I would never have her have that reaction. I think it would just undermine the whole show. A lot of gay and lesbian fans have been burned by that before, so this, I think, will have a hint of that for them. They’ll be like, Oh no, you’re gonna make her straight now. And I want everyone to know: She will never be straight. She is not straight. It’s been very clear in this season that she’s not straight because of her feelings for Karma. I think now we’re trying to go beyond Karma. Where is Amy on the spectrum? And I’m not sure. I’m not sure where we’re gonna end up, but I know she’s not gonna end up straight.

 

And much more. Interesting that Rita has said a couple of times, and quite plainly, that Amy is a lesbian, but Carter refuses to label her like that.

 

@ybrik -- Anyone can start threads here. Go ahead and make a wishlist one!

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I just want to add one thing. The writers did an amazing job this entire season except the two-way revenge sex. To go with that, MTV had a chance to not air the scene. So what I take from that is that they have a very good idea in mind for next season that needed that scene to happen. It may seem bad right now, but if you trust the writers it might be a good idea to abstain judgement until season 2.

Edit: I didn't read that interview above, which I think supports my claims. Why would he have an interview prepared in advance for damage control if he didn't think the ending would make people angry? If he knew it would make people angry, he would not have done the scene unless he's confident in it creating a interesting situation for season 2.

Edited by Hellfire

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I just want to add one thing. The writers did an amazing job this entire season except the two-way revenge sex. To go with that, MTV had a chance to not air the scene. So what I take from that is that they have a very good idea in mind for next season that needed that scene to happen. It may seem bad right now, but if you trust the writers it might be a good idea to abstain judgement until season 2.

Edit: I didn't read that interview above, which I think supports my claims. Why would he have an interview prepared in advance for damage control if he didn't think the ending would make people angry? If he knew it would make people angry, he would not have done the scene unless he's confident in it creating a interesting situation for season 2.

A bunch of people saw the episode days ago and have been extremely vocal.  Judging by his tweets, sounds like typical damage control.  As for his interview, it is as clichéd as his asinine and utterly predictable idea of a lesbian teen's journey should include having sex with a guy and somehow that is a twist.  There were plenty more people I knew willing to bet both girls are having sex with a guy by the end of the season than something fresh and original like say a lesbian who does not have sex with a man for some contrived reason - in this case revenge sex.  Because I know when I get mad, the first thing I think is well I am so going to have sex with a woman.  He also has that condescending Bryan Elsley style of don't worry I know what it best.  Not quite as bad as Elsley of course.  That fiasco is unrivalled.  The only thing even more predictable would be for AfterEllen to write a lengthy recap tomorrow defending it and saying how it reminds them of their journey.

 

One thing that has not been discussed as much.  The Shane character is a bit too caricature for me.  I like Willett but the gay man who is promiscuous, can't commit, gossips nonstop, and does that to Lauren.  This show could do better in more ways than one.

 

This is a road constantly travelled when it comes to storyline and rationalizations.

Edited by dohe
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That Paula Abdul dance scene was cute. And you can see Bailey lip syncing it also. That speech was beautiful. That rejection was heart breaking. Everything else was ugly as sin.

The actresses did a wonderful job. They melted that ice box in my chest. And then shit hit the fan.

Lauren was pretty cool with Amy. Shane and Pablo are cute. I really like Lauren and Amy s parents.

Dark Amy is always scary.

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