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S01.E08: Burnt Toast

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I'm definitely interested in seeing how (and if) the AfterEllen and Autostraddle recaps differ in opinion this week, and how the girls of

react.
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dohe, I totally understand where you're coming from. I was just trying to remind people the writers have done a fantastic job with the rest of the season before they demand their heads when we aren't sure where this is actually headed.

I feel like Amy was just having sex with Liam to spite Karma. Every character has done fucked up things this season except Amy until that last scene. I get what the writers were trying to do, but I still didn't like it.

Maybe Amy starts dating Liam next season just to spite Karma? Who knows, which is why I'm just going to abstain judgement rather than cry how the entire show is shit now.

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A bunch of people saw the episode days ago.  As for his interview, it is as clichéd as his asinine and utterly predictable idea of a lesbian teen's journey should include having sex with a guy and somehow that is a twist.......The only thing even more predictable would be for AfterEllen to write a lengthy recap tomorrow defending it and saying how it reminds them of their journey.

 

 

Dohe I couldn't agree more. The interview was pretty PRedictable. This is his 'fresh' and 'new' twist. He just threw a bunch of buzz words on the same plot regurgitated on television over and over again, slapped two very gorgeous girls on the front - threw a 'hunk' in the mix and slapped an MTV logo on it. What a crock to me. Not to mention the way he's trying to spin this on Twitter. This 'Oh don't worry girls Karmy has hope' when this is not what people are tweeting about. *sigh*

 

Also AfterEllen will be all over it I'm sure of it. Fawning over it. Telling us girls we need to wait it out. Just like they've done with Glee and just recently someone wrote a post about letting it go when the show should have been put down for it's offensiveness a long time ago. What did we do though - we threw GLAAD awards at it.

- _-  

As a black woman this equates to giving Donald Sterling an NAACP award. What a shame.

Anyways, that's why I say I've found a new home here. Normally I'd be refreshing the page there but the writers just aren't putting these shows in check anymore and it's because we are so thirsty for visibility. Not to mention they'll spend more time deep diving for subtext than looking at actual things that are real and affecting the queer community. There are some good things and at times it can be fun there still but for me, I think I like it here better. People know how to form opinions without raging out or calling you out of your name. It's fair here. I like that. I like that people use facts to back up how they feel and I like that I'm not being preached to. It makes me more open to the opinions and while I still have my own on the matter, some of the other's I've read put things into a bit more perspective.

 

I won't be watching Faking It anymore but I will check out what you guys say. A forum with people who make sense and no trolls - whodathunkit"? I guess I can at least thank the show for bringing me here. Haha.

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On a completely different note, what's the likelihood that Amy's grandmother either works things out for herself and doesn't care or equally doesn't care when she does find out when someone tells her. This show has been a lot about puncturing assumptions after all.

As for bungee jumping, there's a Korean film called "Bungee Jumping of Their Own" which isn't really like this show but it does have some themes in common in a way - and the mention of bungee jumping obviously. Worth seeing.

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why so much comparing to Glee? there, storyline was a secondary filler, while here it is the center of the show. plus, Amy wont start dating Liam. for her, this will be a painful mistake and secret she will need to keep inside and never tell.. i think we will see Amy move on with her life and maybe she will find somebody else..  would be quite interesting if at the moment Amy starts dating some other girl, Karma would realize she has feelings for her, which were blocked due to Liam obsession... but it will be too late... who knows.. to find out we will have to wait for season 2.

Edited by JaM

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I'm definitely interested in seeing how (and if) the AfterEllen and Autostraddle recaps differ in opinion this week, and how the girls of

react.

I figure both recaps will be similar.  There will probably be rationalization, a complete lack of interest in the bigger picture in terms of lesbian representation, and quite possibly one or both of the recap persons relating it to their personal journey while condemning those who don't like it as rejecting how everyone has their own journey.  The last part may seem laughable considering if there is any group of lesbian not underrepresented on tv it is the lesbian who sleeps with a man.  But it ties into the complete lack of interest in the bigger picture.

Edited by dohe

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I'll watch season two. I wasn't angry about Amy sleeping with Liam, just disappointed, and that was the only major misstep of the entire season, in my opinion. It's a shame that it came right at the end of the season, because it's sort of erased all of the great and incredibly true-to-life stuff that came before it, in many people's minds. But I will give Carter another chance, especially now that he knows exactly how this sort of story line is received.

 

It's also always interesting for me to see how shows like this, where the entire first season was written (and filmed?) before any of the episodes aired, change once the showrunners know how the fans feel about the characters and story lines. I doubt that anyone on the writing staff expected Karmy to be so loved and Liam to be almost universally disliked, even among the straight female fans.

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I can understand the comparing to other shows. While it is not always fair it is only natural for people to be wary of investing too much in a show after being burnt before. While I know this comparison isn't the same on a personal level, I find myself having a similar trust issue with the show Arrow after going through Smallville. I also know that Carter was only a writer on the show Greek and his partner was the one who ran it, I can't help but give him the benefit of the doubt because of Greek. The style of the shows are very similar and with Greek it often had characters who never remained one thing or another. They were very human characters who could be good guys/girls one season but due to events become selfish, self destructive and bad guys/girls.

 

To get away from the ending it self, I found myself really wanting to know more about Lauren and Amy's families background. How many times has Farah been married? Where are Lauren's mom and Amy's dad? I also kind of want to see how Amy interacts now with Bruce. Maybe that's just because I recognize him from when he was on the soap One Life to Live. Now I am picturing Lauren's family as the Buchanan's. Also have to agree with the grandma probably figuring out about Amy or not caring.

 

So do you think that Karma/Amy faking it is going to be outed to the whole school? Also as mean as this sound I didn't really feel as sorry for Karma. Even after all of this she was still lying because she apparently didn't tell her mom the whole truth.

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Look, at the end of the day, as long as they didn't kill Helena or harm Alison, I'm fine with this season finale.

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Maybe I'm just too old to want to watch another story about how confused someone is figuring out her sexuality. I've seen that so many times, and almost nothing else, that it's just really boring to me, and frustrating, and I get impatient with it. And the characters on this show have even less excuse for it than usually, because they basically live in a supportive community, are not isolated, and are not living in fear. Amy's mom is the least supportive, but even she let Karma sleep over.

 

If you haven't been following lesbian representations in media, maybe you haven't seen this a million times before, but for those of us who have been, that's why it doesn't look fresh or interesting to us. We've seen it so many times. Maybe other people haven't, so for them there's more curiosity and interest in it.

 

And for me, it doesn't even ring true. The whole idea that Amy would want revenge sex, with a male no less, just boggles my mind. First of all, she's a virgin. That scene where Liam just dives onto her and they go at it strikes me as some kind of super-weird and unrealistic first time bullshit, even if she were straight. That's not how it would happen and it wouldn't be comforting or even satisfactory as revenge because it's gonna hurt. On the one hand, people are saying these are just confused, insecure, innocent little 15 year old kids stumbling around trying to figure stuff out, but on the other hand, they expect the realistic response to rejection and heartbreak is an impulsive and vigorous adult-style fuck. I don't think so.

 

Realism or boringness aside, I actually don't think fucking Liam makes Amy a terrible person. I think Karma should laugh it off and get over it. I don't really understand the argument that it's some character defining betrayal for Amy to do that. For me, the betrayal was what Karma was doing, by lying to and using everyone (and still lying to her mom so she hasn't learned her lesson yet). It also didn't occur to me that Liam was hanging around with a premeditated plan to fuck Amy. I'm an impulsive person sometimes, so I can believe no one had a plan, and everyone just acted cowardly or stupid in the moment.

 

So for me, it's not really about betrayal and character assassination and who's a bad guy vs a good guy among the characters.

 

The betrayal I feel is actually from the writers, who don't seem to comprehend the depth and breadth of drama and intensity of emotion and fertile story potential of just what's there without the extra Amy-Liam fuck. What Amy is experiencing is a profound level of heartbreak. How she handles that deep, deep disappointment and the frank confusion of "where do they go from here?" is a lot all on its own. It's hard to understand, when you are in her position, how someone would actually be attracted to some random player instead of to you, who they claim to love more than anyone and with whom you share great intimacy. For her to navigate that completely different wiring, it makes Karma for the first time kind of an alien being. It makes no sense and it's confusing as hell.

 

It's also a situation where she is truly in love for the first time, then losing that love, and yet at the same time having to stay connected to that same person in a way that doesn't happen for people who break up and have a clean break with the ex, and can go to their best friend for comfort and support. Why isn't that a fascinating dynamic to explore? Why does adding a revenge fuck with Liam make it more intense or interesting? For me, that fuck was like if she got drunk and then barfed all over herself. She will be have a hangover and feel disgusting (and sore) and miserable, but fucking Liam is not the main issue she's dealing with or the most interesting one, in my opinion.

 

Really, anyone can do some reboundy revenge thing. That shit is a dime a dozen. But seeing someone actually deal with their actual issue, instead of going off on some stupid tangent, to me is way more interesting.

 

Amy making a pass at Lauren is not anything I want to see. They're sisters.

 

A more natural reaction would have been for her to go to Shane and bawl her eyes out, or lie in her bed sobbing and not want to see anyone. Carter seems to be really focused on her being angry, but she's also, and I'd think primarily, heartbroken and humiliated and disappointed. Seeing her go through the profound emotion of loss, pick herself up from that, and along the route exploring the uniquely lesbian point of view on that experience, to me is what would have made the show interesting, and distinguished it from every other bullshit lesbian fucks a guy to somehow make the writers feel better and because why not, it's easy and available and most people think it's a normal reaction... Amy is not "normal"-- or she wasn't, until now. And it's a very intesne premise they dumped in favor of the oh so typical TV fuck somebody for drama approach.

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I'll watch season two. I wasn't angry about Amy sleeping with Liam, just disappointed, and that was the only major misstep of the entire season, in my opinion. It's a shame that it came right at the end of the season, because it's sort of erased all of the great and incredibly true-to-life stuff that came before it, in many people's minds. But I will give Carter another chance, especially now that he knows exactly how this sort of story line is received.

 

It's also always interesting for me to see how shows like this, where the entire first season was written (and filmed?) before any of the episodes aired, change once the showrunners know how the fans feel about the characters and story lines. I doubt that anyone on the writing staff expected Karmy to be so loved and Liam to be almost universally disliked, even among the straight female fans.

 

 

Exactly.. first 8 episodes were shot last summer, they had no feedback from fans. There were some things they probably thought will be received differently, like for example, Rita and Katie mentioned they didnt expect so much hate for Liam - Gregg has quite large fan group, so they expected he will be the center of the show, yet, 99% of fans were for Karmy :)

 

 

So do you think that Karma/Amy faking it is going to be outed to the whole school? Also as mean as this sound I didn't really feel as sorry for Karma. Even after all of this she was still lying because she apparently didn't tell her mom the whole truth.

i loved that part... she was crying yet her mom was trying to calm her with something that just made it feel worse.. and all just because of her lies...

 

 

A more natural reaction would have been for her to go to Shane and bawl her eyes out, or lie in her bed sobbing and not want to see anyone. Carter seems to be really focused on her being angry, but she's also, and I'd think primarily, heartbroken and humiliated and disappointed. Seeing her go through the profound emotion of loss, pick herself up from that, and along the route exploring the uniquely lesbian point of view on that experience, to me is what would have made the show interesting, and distinguished it from every other bullshit lesbian fucks a guy to somehow make the writers feel better and because why not, it's easy and available and most people think it's a normal reaction... Amy is not "normal"-- or she wasn't, until now. And it's a very intesne premise they dumped in favor of the oh so typical TV fuck somebody for drama approach.

 

it would be natural reaction for other people, but throughout the season, we saw Amy reactions when she got angry.. she destroyed that cake, and mother's bridal shower, she outed herself as lesbian on local television...and she was about to humiliate her mother on the wedding if Karma didnt calmed her down... so her doing something that stupid is exactly something with her temperament would do..

Edited by JaM

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I've been thinking about how I would have ended it if I were in Carter's place. I think I would have done the same setup, with Amy spotting Liam outside the wedding, except she would have run over and just started trying to hit him, to start a physical fight. He wouldn't fight back, of course, but he'd grab her arms and stop her, and then she'd start crying and he'd hug her as she broke down. Cliche, sure, but it would go a long way toward redeeming Liam -- to showing that he was unaware of Amy's feelings for Karma and that he never meant to hurt her. Then in season two, Amy and Liam could bond as friends, with her discovering (through meeting and dating other girls) that she likes girls, not just Karma, and him realizing how messed up it was that he wanted to sleep with a lesbian just to check it off some mental list. I think he could make a good lesbro, and being friends with the show's most beloved character could only help his popularity with the show's audience. They could both freeze Karma out for a while -- Amy because she needs to get over her, and Liam because he's angry with her and doesn't trust her -- but eventually all three could be friends. I would have liked something like that.

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i would actually do one thing differently - i would make Karma go back to apologize just to see what happened, to break her even more lol in the end, everything is her fault..

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Well, I guess the "good" thing about this pustule of an episode was that I was motivated to sign up here in order to vent.  

 

(But I would have done that eventually, I'm sure.  However, my vicious side does enjoy the fact that my very first post will be about something that merits the title "this pustule of an episode", so there's that.)

 

Here's my reply to Carter's Buzzfeed excuse-fest, linked upthread:

Yeah, no, sorry, Carter. Not buying it. Not even making it through the whole interview. Take your boner for Gregg Sulkin and get off of my TV.


That was grotesquely homophobic, in every aspect. Not just Amy sleeping with Liam (gee, he started the season by saying every straight guy wants to bone a lesbian…now he’s gotten his fantasy, twice!), but Katie Stevens being instructed to play her reaction to “I know you felt something when we kissed!” without any of the nuance that went into Karma’s hesitantly heteronormative moments earlier in the season. (Ep 2, when Amy asks “I thought you wanted your first time to be with someone special” and Karma is like “And what’s more special than having it be with the hottest guy in school?” and Katie’s performance tells you that Karma’s trying to convince herself of that? None of that last night. Karma’s reaction to Amy’s probing about the kiss couldn’t have been more “what? No! Ew!” if that had been the actual script.)

And how about the “happy” story of Shane and Pablo getting together, but celibately? Ooookay, so Liam gets to bone Karma for a whole week, gets to bone Amy out of revenge, but Satan forbid there be the slightest hint of gay sex on this supposedly homo-positive show! Sheesh.

And I think Carter actually wants us to feel for Liam because Karma lied to him, boo-hoo-hoo. Yeah, like he didn’t cover up the affair, too. And his “punishment” is to hang another scalp on his penis, poor boy.

And what’s all this garbage about “Well, Amy hasn’t specifically called herself a lesbian (well, not if you don’t count her public outing, her telling Shane she thought she might be, and her later decision that Karma was the only person she was physically attracted to) so it’s totes okay for her to sleep with guys, honest!” How vile. I mean, why didn’t we see Liam spread his buttcheeks for Shane if revenge-sex was his goal? After all, Liam never 100% SAID he was totally absolutely straight…wouldn’t having sex with HIS best friend be perfect revenge for Karma lying about dating HER best friend? But of course it’s ridiculous to assume straight guys would ever have sex with men…but ALL women, no matter how “bicurious/fluid” they might be, none of them can ever resist the penis! And so the patriarchy lives on. Up yours, Carter. Celibately.

(And the “Karma is a bitch” line has been incredibly obvious since the pilot [i’m sure half the reviews used it back in April] and actually putting it in the show was just cheap and weak writing, but that’s a different story. Even Kathleen Noone [swoon!] can’t save this crap.)

 

And my follow-up to myself there:

 

 

And of course, it’s sexist as hell for Amy to be “bisexual/fluid/not sure” when there would never be any question of Shane or Pablo sleeping with a girl or even kissing one. MALE homosexuality is real and painful and special and inviolate, but girls are just silly girls and things change all the time! JFC.

 

So, what have we learned?

 

1)  Men are superior to women because they are confident in their sexuality, the gays are gay and the straights are straight and never the twain shall meet.   Even if they go to The Twain together.  (See also Carter's talking in the interview about how he decided not to have any Liam/Shane subtext because he wanted to keep their friendship "pure".)  Women, on the other hand, are bisexual/fluid/curious/confused/fickle/going through a phase/whatever.  You can't really expect a girl to go her whole life without at least trying The Peen, can you?  That would be unnatural.

 

2) At Hester High, the Blue Oasis in the Red Sea of Texas, the straights have sex upon sex upon sex (Liam/Soleil in the broom closet, Liam/every girl in school, Liam and Karma in the art room) but the gays must find redemption through the purity of celibacy (Shane/Pablo) or decide they're not too gay to have sex with men, after all. (Amy)  How progressive.

 

3)  Straight people break up by telling off their partner (Liam to Karma, Lauren to Tommy [allegedly]).  Lesbians break up by finding a cock to swing on.

 

4) It was "dramatically necessary" for Amy to sleep with Liam because that was the way she could hurt Karma the most.  Why Amy's wanting to hurt Karma should result in heterosexual pandering instead of her bashing Liam in the head with a champagne bottle is best left to the show's apologists, not to mention the question of why Amy should give a fuck about what's "dramatically necessary".

 

5) Sulkin' Gregg Sulkin can't act, at all.  But we knew that.  

 

6) Katie Stevens spent seven episodes playing nuance and subtlety.  But because it's important to absolutely crush the Karmy 'ship in this episode, she reacts to "I knew you felt something when we kissed at the threesome" like Amy is suddenly speaking Martian.

 

7) Carter thinks there's no option but to 'ship-tease forever because "think about every TV show that you’ve ever watched, and when the couple you most want to get together gets together, there’s no more show."  Yeah, I've seen exactly one episode of Grey's Anatomy, ever, but even I know that they were able to hook up Meredith and Derek ("McDreamy") in Season 1 and still find years and years of show after that.   And that's just the first example that came to mind.

 

Suppose Karma had reacted to the toast by being shocked, needing "time", but not being able to deny Amy's statement that she has feelings, too?  End of conflict, end of show?  Hardly.  We would still have the fact that Karma slept with Liam (and lied to Amy about it), the fact that Amy lied to Karma about not having feelings for her (and made a secret lesbian dating profile and went on a date with another girl behind Karma's back while she was driving Karma nuts by giving her the silent treatment), and the fact that Karma and Amy have been lying to the whole school about their "relationship" over and over and over again, have gotten unearned accolades/prom titles/publicity/support/muffins from everyone (including Karma's parents) about it, and should by all rights become pariahs when somebody (Liam? Lauren?) vengefully spills the beans.  Gee, I think a competent, non-heteronormative bro-douche writer could find something to work with there, not to mention being able to introduce new plot twists as Season 2 goes on.

 

But instead we get "Amy spreads it for Liam, poor little rich boy who gets to fuck every 'lesbian' in town".  What-EVER.  And, bye!

Edited by DAngelus
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@DAngelus: Shane slept with women at the band camp... he actually had a threesome there.. mentioned in episode 6. Plus, he is character that figured his sexuality quite early (4.grade) so he is no longer struggling with it. Amy is at the beginning..

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There's no indication whatsoever that Shane's theater camp threesome(s) included anyone of the female persuasion.

 

And Shane having owned his sexuality since fourth grade (and Pablo being "out and proud" since first grade) when Amy/Karma are portrayed as "confused/struggling/just starting out" is more indication of the show's sexism/disrespect for lesbianism/women, I'd argue.  But JMO.

 

 

I doubt that anyone on the writing staff expected Karmy to be so loved and Liam to be almost universally disliked, even among the straight female fans.

 

Well, that speaks to the incompetence of the writing staff, then.  Clearly they must have known Liam's behavior was sketchy, given the number of times they tried to artificially fluff his character.  And given that Amy is the POV character and is written very likably, it's hard to imagine they didn't expect people to want what she wants, especially after selling us so nicely on Karma's half of the "Lucy to my Ethel" in the rooftop scene in the pilot.  We are shown two girls being great friends, Amy overcoming her completely-sane objections to the scheme for Karma's sake, the big kiss, Amy having a realization about herself, all as the climax of the pilot…and we're NOT supposed to be pulling for this 'ship?  Puh-lease.

 

It also occurs to me that this awful episode retroactively tarnishes the beauty of 1.06, how it contrasted with and showed growth from the pilot.  The contrast between the two "Whoa"/"I know" Karmy post-kiss exchanges was striking, and endlessly .gif-ed.  (It's really a tribute to Katie to see the difference on Karma's face in the two "whoa" shots.)  But now we're meant (not only through the plot and the dialogue but through Katie's performance here) to believe that not only did the threesome kiss not mean anything, but Karma never even on any level thought it meant anything; that it was the exact same situation as the kiss in the pilot, except with Amy wearing sexy lingerie.  "Contrast and compare" .gifs be damned, silly girls!

 

Well, they nicely retconned Lauren spitting venom about "the Isle of Lesbos" and standing up for "tradition" in the pilot and her blackmailing Amy over her sexuality in ep 2 into "I'm not anti-gay, I'm just anti-Shane" and got away with it, so I guess Carter thought he could rewrite history here, too.  Sorry, just because I'm weak when it comes to Bailey Buntain doesn't mean you get an unlimited free pass for this crap; my fault for not making that clear, I suppose.

Edited by DAngelus

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it is actually, by his comment that he fiddled more than just on the roof..  (or something in this manner)

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I may be in the minority, but I was fine with the last 15 seconds happening. It made sense in the context of both characters, Amy especially. The show has done a good job of establishing the fact that Amy is distructive when hurt or angry. She doesn't think her actions through she just...reacts. She lashes out to hurt the person who hurt her, and Liam....just happened to be there.

 

And to the person wondering why he was still there at the end, well...he rode to the wedding with his best friend, Shane, who's still inside making out with his new boo-thang. Not the mention...he's just as drunk as Amy, if not drunker (I mean, at least she had cake with her champaigne!).

 

All in all, I really enjoyed the first season of Faking it and I can't wait until season 2!

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Yes, Shane fiddled on more than just the roof, he had threesomes, he knows how to manipulate a threesome so you get quality sex with the person you're more interested in, no disputing that.  But still no reason to believe Shane's threesomes were anything but boy/boy/boy.

 

And why should Liam need to stick around to give Shane a ride home?  If Shane's hooking up with Pablo, wouldn't Pablo (who presumably got to the wedding via some method other than teleportation) have a way of getting Shane back home?  "I'm out of here, you coming?" "Nah, I'm gonna hang with Lolo" would cover it, I'd think.

 

(Also, the wedding is still going on, albeit winding down, during the Shablo kiss scene.  Whereas the caterers are packing up the truck and driving away when Amy spots Liam, so there was definitely a time-lapse involved.)

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DAngelus, well said.  And for goodness sake will the people from the show realize that audiences understand that Amy's anger and hurt is the latest contrived reason used for a lesbian to have sex with a guy. Nobody out there seems to not understand this. Most of us just happen to know it is contrived to get another lesbian having sex with a guy. 

@DAngelus: Shane slept with women at the band camp... he actually had a threesome there.. mentioned in episode 6. Plus, he is character that figured his sexuality quite early (4.grade) so he is no longer struggling with it. Amy is at the beginning..

Actually this backs Dangelus even more if we were to say Shane messed around with a girl when he was a 4th grader.  Apparently us gay men know everything immediately (and 4th grade is pretty early to figure it out) while lesbian teens are all confused and need to have sex with a man on their  journey.  Well that is according to the nonstop proliferation of this tired worn out trope.  I think we can all agree messing around at summer camp at Shane's age is not comparable to having sex as a teen.  But hey they can't have a gay man or a straight man not be 100% "pure" to use Carter's term. 

 

 

Edited by dohe

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he's just as drunk as Amy, if not drunker

A pity "the fourth F" didn't rear its head, then.

 

Okay, maybe "rear its head" isn't the proper phrase for flaccidity, but you take my point.  Wait, "take my point" doesn't work so well with that, either…

 

(And, thanks, dohe.  You and theshepherd actually said a lot of what I wanted to say upthread, but I just wanted to vent, too.)

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And why should Liam need to stick around to give Shane a ride home?  If Shane's hooking up with Pablo, wouldn't Pablo (who presumably got to the wedding via some method other than teleportation) have a way of getting Shane back home?  "I'm out of here, you coming?" "Nah, I'm gonna hang with Lolo" would cover it, I'd think.

 

(Also, the wedding is still going on, albeit winding down, during the Shablo kiss scene.  Whereas the caterers are packing up the truck and driving away when Amy spots Liam, so there was definitely a time-lapse involved.)

 

Well, we don't really know if Shane/Liam ever talked after him spilling the beans about Karma/Amy faking it. And like another poster said somewhere upthread, why would he leave? He's at a wedding where there's free alcohol and nobody's carding him. When we see him later (after he chugged a bottle of champaigne/wine...which gives me a headache just thinking about it) he's chilling on a gate outside the wedding. Maybe he called a cab and was waiting? (How else would he and Amy get back to her room for hate sex?). Maybe Shane told him to wait for him there? Maybe Pablo was in charge of driving Lauren home (most Bride/Grooms...Groom/Groom....Bride/Bride leave weddings on their own) and LaLa and Shay-shay can't be in the same car right now because of the pills thing?

 

They never explicitly say why he's still there, but they have shown that he's not an intentionally malicious person, contrary to fandom oppinion. Maybe he was waiting for Amy so he could appologize -one of the reasons he tried to break things off with Karma originally was because of Amy. He even asks repetedly if Amy knows about Karma and his relationship. It's not out of the realm of what the show set up that he feels guilty and remorsful as well as angry and incredibly hurt. But all of that went out of the window as soon as he saw her and how pissed off she was and it fed into the anger he already felt (misery loves company).

 

One thing I have a problem with is....how far away is the reception hall from Amy's home? Like...is it in their Residential Community Hall thing? Or someone not that far of a drive? It confused me how fast people (Amy and Karma) went back and forth.

 

A pity "the fourth F" didn't rear its head, then.

 

Okay, maybe "rear its head" isn't the proper phrase for flaccidity, but you take my point.  Wait, "take my point" doesn't work so well with that, either…

 

(And, thanks, dohe.  You and theshepherd actually said a lot of what I wanted to say upthread, but I just wanted to vent, too.)

You just made me choke/laugh on my pistacios

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After seeing the whole episode, the ending still sucked.

It was completely contrived and wholly unrealistic, not just for Amy, whose charachter was completely destroyed but the whole situation.

First, it annoyed me to no end that Amy was served alcohol in the first place. I'm a married man who had a wedding and I've been to dozens of weddings/bar mitzvahs, etc. 15 year olds do not get served alcohol even if you're the daughter of the bride. When Liam crashes his car and gets a DUI after banging Amy, guess who gets sued...the caterer. Also, along with that, I get that the wedding is Amy's mom's big day, there is a lot going on, she is probably having a honeymoon, etc. But I REFUSE to believe that neither Amy's mom nor anybody else noticed that Amy was piss drunk and obviously upset about something yet did NOTHING about it. And left her completely alone. Complete bollocks.

Even Lauren I imagine would have tried to get her to go to bed.

Carter Covington's response was ridiculous and he ruined his own stupid cliffhanger. He had an out to change it but plowed ahead anyway. The whole notion of "revenge sex" is just stupid. Liam, I maybe understand. Maybe. He did sort of get played, though Karma actually did really like him and vice versa so no real harm done to him anyway. Not sure why he was that upset.

But Amy. Good god Amy. "Revenge sex" for what exactly? That Karma didn't immediately leap into bed with you after you blindside her with a huge revelation? I don't care that she was drunk, and Covington amde it clear that she knew what she was doing and her intent was to hurt Karma. They managed to turn the hero into a villain, and the girl who should have gotten her comeuppance into a legitimate victim in about 20 seconds of screen time.

Also hilarious how Carter Covington and Rita Volk don't seem to be anywhere near the same page when it comes to Amy's charachter.

Edited by Schmolioot
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It doesn't just conflict with 1.06, it conflicts with the dance sequence in this episode. Heterosexual life partners do not have straight up as their song. That was about the least platonic thing I have ever seen that didn't involve nakedness or overt makeout sessions. 

 

I can easily see how the writers might have expected Liam to be more popular. Handsome, broody rich white boy? Gosh, I can think of no examples whatsoever of fandoms giving characters like that all the free passes in the world. Except I can. 

 

That the Karmy army took one look at him and went "Hottie Douceface" is a credit to the fandom, and could quite easily be surprising to the team behind the show. 

 

On the other hand, some of the things the show did with him make no sense whatsoever if they do not want him to be hated. And this really just over the top. It isn't difficult to imagine how he must feel after he confronts Karma. It is difficult to imagine what could possibly inspire him to hang out at the scene. Free booze? Please. His family donated millions to the school, and while his Mercedes isn't new, it is a high-end one, and in good condition. His allowance will cover getting wasted. 

Edited by Izeinwinter

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That was an entertaining episode even if that ending was a bit rom com ending. Kind of in the same bag as two characters who've hated each other hooking up appropos of nothing other than 'opposites attract'.

I was kind of wondering about the lax supply of alcohol to both Amy and Liam, I know Amy is supposed to be 15 but is Liam 15 too ? This show goes by so quickly it's hard to be clear about some of the details especially as I don't think we've seen anyone in an actual class so its hard to tell whether anyone but Amy and Karma are in the same grade.

 

I'd imagine Liam was upset with Karma because she's basically been lying to him about everything since he noticed her in the pilot. About being a lesbian, being in an open relationship, about being upfront with Amy about seeing him, both times and meanwhile he's told her stuff he's never told anyone else, opened up to her and had sex with her. Karma has been lying to him for 3 weeks about lots of things and has essentially tricked him into having sex with her. It's not a great way to endear yourself to someone. I'd say Liam should have sex with Shane to work through his issues instead of Amy but considering that Lauren figured out that Shane tears through boys like puppies. I wouldn't imagine Liam would be keen to experiment with Shane, considering Shane has been lying to him as well (if only by omission). So from Liam's perspective he fell in love with a girl thinking she was honest and upfront and a lesbian in an open relationship and she's none of those things and his best friend has known about it for ages without telling him. I'd imagine he'd be fairly pissed off about that and having a drink seemed like a good idea, considering those terrible caterers providing champagne without caring about teenagers in the kitchen. 

 

Oh well I hope season 2 lasts longer and explores the characters a little more.

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Maybe I am committing the typical mind fallacy here, but I am having a lot of difficulty imagining hanging out at that wedding after the confrontation with Karma. That entire situation just screams "Nope the heck out of there".And free booze isn't enough. He's rich, and heck, he is in a catering uniform. Letting an employee get hammered seems even less likely than not keeping count on how many glasses Amy had. 

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It looked like the wedding and the reception were at Amy's home which could explain why she was being served if her mom gave the okay.

I think Amy was mad at Karma for a few reasons. Hiding that things weren't over with Liam, sleeping with Liam and Karma broke her heart. I think as much as she tried to deny it at first she relly believed Karma felt the same. Plus she was already on a dark path because of her mom

Liam crashing the wedding in the first place bothers me more than him staying.

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I gotta say, I'm also in the minority that wasn't angry about the ending.

 

Disappointed? Absolutely. I can understand people's angry reactions to the ending, because it doesn't make a lick of sense for Amy to see Liam and immediately go for hate sex. I'm not sure about Liam; he would be the type to have hate sex, but with Amy? It's just odd. However, I understand when people are drunk, they do stupid things that they don't think about until they're sober. People do impulsive things without thinking about it. Sure, there was definitely a better way to handle the ending and I would have definitely preferred the last 20 seconds were completely cut out (I'll actually pretend it didn't happen until season 2 starts up), but I'm not angry with Carter. 

 

I read that interview and I honestly don't see him as 100% doing PR. I think he does mean every word that he says. I think he does have a plan and even knowing the reaction of fans, he's sticking with it. I also don't hate that he says that Amy isn't straight, but she isn't a lesbian either. Right now, I believe that Amy is trying to find herself and she may not identify as lesbian now, but she may choose to identify as such later on. Just as of right now, she's not a lesbian and that's ok. Sexual orientation is a tricky subject and not everyone can put themselves into one specific group off the bat.

 

As for Liam, I was annoyed that he showed up at the wedding, but it's not like he's the only bad guy in this scenario. Unfortunately, it's Karma who was lying to everyone and made Amy go along with it. Sure, it's not Karma's fault that she had to reject Amy and Amy shouldn't be angry at Karma for doing so. But Karma did start this all, with pursuing Liam while playing along with the lesbian angle just to become popular. She may not have meant anything by it at first, but unfortunately this is how it happened. And for Liam staying at the wedding, he probably was waiting around for Shane but he could have also called a cab. It's not like he knows many people at the wedding to ask for a ride home. 

 

Karma is clearly still in some sort of denial of her feelings. Amy's slowly started to accept herself, but I think she still has a bit to go before she's fully comfortable with defining herself as a lesbian, or whatever. Karma, at the moment, either chooses not to see herself as not straight or she doesn't really have feelings for Amy right now, and that's ok too. I love Karma and Amy; I love their relationship and how it's so complex. Not everything can be black and white. Amy's anger is understandable, because she thought that Karma could have feelings for her too, only to be rejected. Amy's never had feelings for another girl before so it's not like she can jump into another relationship or say 'oh well, Karma doesn't have feelings for me so I guess I should move on'. No, Amy's super confused about not just her feelings for Karma, but her sexual orientation too. Does that mean jumping into bed with Liam, the guy that Karma slept with? Of course not; I think that's stupid. However, in the moment, I could see her wanting to get her anger out at anyone and it being Liam was just the icing on the cake. Maybe Amy's drunken process was going 'there's a guy I can sleep with to get over Karma'. It being Liam could be just coincidence, or maybe she wanted to be angry at Karma and get her revenge of sorts with the guy that she likes, to hurt Karma like she had hurt her.

 

And D'Angelus, I can absolutely see your point of view. I don't agree with it, personally, because I think that the roles could have been reversed and it could have been two guy best friends finding out about their feelings toward one another with a girl caught in the middle, but I also think that either way, this topic would have been constructed as homophobic or negative toward homosexuality in some way. It's a touchy subject nowadays and however Carter would have presented it, there would still be controversy. But, once again, the whole sleeping with your best friend's crush/hookup wasn't needed and it would have been better if it ended with Liam and Amy sharing a different kind of moment at the end. I like the idea brought up of Amy crying on Liam's shoulder and them bonding over their anger over Karma. That would have made for a much more interesting season finale, and a good set up to season 2.

 

Honestly, I did still like the season finale and I'll still tune in for season 2, if only because I do still trust Carter and I hope he knows what he's doing to settle the Karmy fans. 

Edited by jessied112

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I've always accepted (and the creators themselves have said) that the show is an exaggerated version of reality and using that backdrop to highlight things it wants to focus on, illustrate and discuss. I'm not sure how far down the rabbit hole you want to wander with the realism of some of the things with the show. I guess some of it is suspension of disbelief though it is fair to at least speculate about some of the choices.You could start by asking how two teenagers wander into a wedding already in progress and find uniforms to disguise themselves as working for the company and actually do so without noticing. Then like you're saying, there's a lot of underage alcohol consumption all through the show. Finally that leads to the age of consent in Texas is nominally 17 (though thanks to the possible contradiction of Texas penal code 43.25, you're seriously best off avoiding anyone under 18). If anything, a lot of things in this show technically could have ended up involving the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services and the Police.I guess that then leads to the next question as to why things are the way they are presented precisely because they're seen by people in real life. Would it have been better to make all the characters >18? Are they framing it this way because real life is more like this regardless of what the law and the people who set it ideally would like? All questions worth at least asking I guess.

... and here's the After Ellen recap.http://www.afterellen.com/faking-it-recap-1-8-burnt-toast/06/2014/

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It looked like the wedding and the reception were at Amy's home which could explain why she was being served if her mom gave the okay.

I think it's clear that it's in the Raudenfeld/Cooper back yard.  While Karma and Amy might have just possibly zipped back to have a quick post-toast chat, I can't see any reason why a devastated Amy would have then gone back to the wedding, after being rejected.  That's a "curl up in a ball" moment if I ever saw one.  Even with the wedding right downstairs, it's pretty dubious, to be honest. 

 

But even if you could somehow motivate Amy and Karma to trek back and forth to some hypothetical wedding facility, if the wedding was taking place anywhere else that had bathrooms, there would be no reason for Lauren to run home, yet we saw her in her/Amy's bathroom, eavesdropping.  So yes, definitely on premises, IMO.  Which on the one hand is why I didn't give that much thought to Amy getting served (even though, thinking about it, it would be far more of a "one drink with Mom's approval" situation rather than the "keep 'em coming!" fountain of Champagne we saw), but on the other hand it makes Liam even more of a douche.  

 

I mean, he agrees to keep his relationship with Karma a secret because she doesn't want to look bad by "cheating" on Amy (that's the story she gives him and the one he agrees to support, later revelations of her lying aside) and yet he not only crashes Farrah's wedding to nail Karma (disrespectful to Amy even if she was "100% okay" with Karma/Liam, and an action likely to get them found out, since there's no place at the wedding as safe and secure as Liam Booker's Private Art Room apparently is)…but he does it at Amy's house?  Sheesh.

 

(As for Liam sticking around solely for the booze, the limousine his sister picked him up in, which his family probably has on call, no doubt has a full bar inside.)

 

Also, the wedding being at Amy's house makes the "Liam had to stay to drive Shane home" logic even more flawed, IMO.  Even if Pablo the Magic Unicorn wasn't capable of giving Shane a ride home ("Sorry, Shaners, the cartoon birds can only carry one of us! Kisses!"), it's not as if Shane couldn't have crashed at the Cooperfelds'.  Farrah adores him, remember?  And Amy tells him all her secrets…gee, maybe that wasn't such a good idea, seeing as he went and told them to Liam without even asking her.  Fuck you, too, Shane Harvey.

 

Getting back to Lauren's eavesdropping on the Karmy conversation, that does make me wonder where she is during the Amam sex.  Clearly no farther than across the hall…about the only out that Carter has for S2 is if it starts by Lauren bursting in and clocking Liam over the head with her tennis racquet, saving Amy's virginity and at least some fans' affection.

 

Well, okay, there's still the flaccidity excuse:

 

AMY:  Dude, what the f*ck??

LIAM:  Sorry, I had too much to drink.  This happens, okay? Give me a second…

AMY:  Well, maybe it's for the best.  Now that I think about it, what are you doing here?

LIAM:  Well, I dressed up as a waiter to make out with Karma—

AMY: No, why are you having—well, trying to have—sex with me?

LIAM:  Because I'm mad as hell!  Karma used me!  She told me you two were a couple, but she's been lying all this time!

AMY:…So…you're mad at Karma because she's NOT cheating on me?  That's, um, sweet…I guess.

LIAM (upset): No, you don't get it!  I could have any girl in the school—I've had most of them—but they just want me because I'm rich and popular and good-looking.  Karma told me she was a lesbian, made me think that I was so special she would change her whole sexuality for me!  But it was all a lie…she's just another cock-slut, no different from Brandi and all the rest!  How am I gonna validate my manhood now?

AMY:  Uh…yeah.  (calling, off) LAUREN!  Tennis racquet! NOW!!

 

(Lauren rushes in and beats Liam about the head. And the crowd goes wild…)

 

Izeinwinter, when I say that Karma's TOTALLY-STRAIGHT reaction to the subject of the kiss (which yes, is now in fact being spun as "poor Amy, so silly to dream. Well, we've all been there, right, girls?" in the Autostraddle recap, as was expected, upthread) conflicts with 1.06, I don't just mean that the kiss was "evidence" that Karma isn't straight, like the "Straight Up" dance could be interpreted.  Heck, half of Karma's lines ("I'm a f*cking teenage girl! Why shouldn't I like the hottest boy in school?") and 90% of Karmy interaction could be (and have been) interpreted that way.

 

I mean that the kiss at the threesome was intended to show growth from the kiss in the pilot, that the lines after were intentionally repeated to heighten the contrast.  If we're now retconning it to say that Karma never felt a thing, that the kiss in 1.06 was the same as the kiss in 1.01, if there's no growth actually being shown, well then what was the point of 1.06?  Aside from seeing Rita Volk in lingerie, but still.

 

Why does Karma go "whoa" if there's nothing to go "whoa" about?  The "whoa" in the pilot was motivated by Karma's joy at Amy's willingness to play along, what's the "whoa" in 1.06 now supposed to represent?  That the kiss was "hot", as Karma now dismisses it? What, had Amy been dead-fishing all their kisses before?  That's not how Rita seemed to be playing it.

 

This retcon kills all the "dramatic necessity" of the threesome kiss.  As Karma is currently being written and played, you could have started the threesome with Liam and Amy kissing (Liam's idea, and not surprising he'd want to take the lead), and had Karma freak out and run off out of jealousy at Amy trying to steal her mannnnn, no Karmy kiss needed at all.  Well, except for 'ship-teasing purposes, I suppose.

 

(replies to jessied112 to come later; this is long enough as it is.)

Edited by DAngelus

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But, once again, the whole sleeping with your best friend's crush/hookup wasn't needed and it would have been better if it ended with Liam and Amy sharing a different kind of moment at the end. I like the idea brought up of Amy crying on Liam's shoulder and them bonding over their anger over Karma. That would have made for a much more interesting season finale, and a good set up to season 2.

 

Exactly. That would have been new and fresh to me. And not done to death like a love triangle.

My goodness, I haven't ever seen this in television!! How ever did he come up with this idea??! 

It would have steered clear of the trope and helped Liam in getting over with the fandom. May I ask - how long did it take you to think of that? They need to hire you asap. For real, I mean you just wrote out the most sensible and interesting conclusion I've heard to save what was otherwise an excellent episode. 

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 May I ask - how long did it take you to think of that? They need to hire you asap. For real, I mean you just wrote out the most sensible and interesting conclusion I've heard to save what was otherwise an excellent episode. 

Heh, it wasn't my idea, to be honest. I just scrolled up and Cranberry mentioned the idea so I just had to agree with that being the better ending. You see, then season 2, we could have had Amy/Liam becoming close friends and shutting Karma out for a couple of episodes and then maybe she could have gone to Shane, since he's close with both of them, and then they could have bonded as Shane tried to help Karma earn Liam's trust back and help her with Amy.

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Ooh, I like that addition of Karma and Shane becoming friends. That would have turned the tables and made for some fun stories.

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Slightly off topic…but I don't like how this show (and others) make it seem like a girl losing her virginity to a guy isn't going to hurt and be umm well, messy/probably bloody (sorry to be gross).  Karma lost her virginity in that tent thing in what looked like sand? And although he may have been gentle, would she really be up for screwing him every day for a week afterwards? Even if it was good, I don't know. 

 

And Amy's "revenge/angry sex" did not look gentle. The pain alone would probably give her a chance to take a break and realize that what she was doing was hurting herself more than Karma (emotionally and physically). And I highly doubt Amy had any condoms. Maybe the guy brought some in anticipation of sleeping with karma…but that makes him a jerk anyways in my opinion. 

 

These girls are portraying 15 year olds.  I know it is just a tv show, so I am reading too much into the reality of the situation, but still! 

 

By the way, I didn't need to sleep with a girl to know I am straight. I just never had any sexual interest in females. Why does a girl need to sleep with a guy to know whether she is a lesbian?

 

I also really do not like Karma. She is selfish and a user. She turned out to be much more what a "mean girl" would be like, kind of how Lauren seemed to be portrayed in the beginning. Minus the overt meanness. She is just manipulative. I much rather be friends with Lauren than Karma. 

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And for me, it doesn't even ring true. The whole idea that Amy would want revenge sex, with a male no less, just boggles my mind. First of all, she's a virgin.

So, after her "how do you know if you haven't tried it" comment to Karma, might it not cross a (drunken) Amy's mind to check out what made Karma so sure?

 

 

Finally that leads to the age of consent in Texas is nominally 17 (though thanks to the possible contradiction of Texas penal code 43.25, you're seriously best off avoiding anyone under 18).

If 16 and Pregnant can routinely feature real-life "underage" couples, why should it be a concern of producers of a show with fictional couples?

 

Why was Amy's mother so upset about Karma and Amy dancing together? You see girls dancing with each other at just about every wedding reception; even high school girls attending with boyfriends will sometimes dance with each other while their guys are off having a smoke or whatnot.

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Because she is in a panic about her mother finding out Farrah's daughter is gayer than K.D,Lang? Which.. eh, if she hasn't figured it out yet nothing short of an invitation to Amy's eventual wedding hand delivered by the other bride is likely to tip her. But fears do not have to be rational. 

 

.. Looked up Texan consent laws. I am sorry I did that. Seriously? Ugh. 

 

The virginity thing: Depends. The first time doesn't have to hurt. It almost certainly will if both parties are virgins, but that's down to incompetence. The Amy encounter.. yhea, that ought not be fun. 

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By the way, I didn't need to sleep with a girl to know I am straight. I just never had any sexual interest in females. Why does a girl need to sleep with a guy to know whether she is a lesbian?

This. For godsake, I simply do not get it. Maybe I just have more libido than the writers of this crap imagine, but those feelings are not subtle. Why do TV writers think lesbian teenagers have these vague confusing undefinable longings and not the same hormonal tidal wave every other teen sexual orientation has?

 

So, after her "how do you know if you haven't tried it" comment to Karma, might it not cross a (drunken) Amy's mind to check out what made Karma so sure?

I thought that was one of the stupidest lines in the entire script. My point was more like what WiCkedWitCh was saying a few posts above here, about the realities of het sex for a virgin. I just think the entire thing is some weird heterosexual male delusion.

 

i would make Karma go back to apologize just to see what happened, to break her even more lol in the end, everything is her fault..

Ha! Devious! I have disagreed with almost everything you've said about this episode, JaM, but I appreciate your point of view that everything is Karma's fault. She really has been manipulating everyone all season. On the other hand, everyone went along with it, and they didn't have to.

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Well, my question (which I don't have an answer to) is how much responsibility should a fictional show generally have in how it portrays things? It may be truer to life but on the other hand there are laws which even if rarely enforced, can and have technically landed people in trouble sometimes. Should there be any worries about making sure people watching it are at least aware of real world implications or not, given that it has been known for people to mistake things on TV for what might happen in real life? Neither the age of the characters nor alcohol consumption is the primary focus of the show, it's about something else that they're trying to tell in the universe they've constructed which doesn't completely match real life, the ancillary details and background aren't as important in that context. Just worth thinking about, I guess.

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The AfterEllen recap is much, much better than the Autostraddle one.  Elaine Atwell nails a lot of things I said, like the way the "realistic" Karmy there-was-no-spark conversation makes 1.06 pointless in retrospect and how Liam really has no reason to be that angry at Karma:

 

Aside from his brand-new moral code, I don’t see why Liam is this upset.  Like, is he worried they’re going to take away his straight guy points for conquering a lesbian?

Seriously, aside from all his "I HATE LYING" nostril-flexing, what's his deal?  He thought he was helping Karma lie to the whole school about her and Amy's "still" being together, and now he's upset that he's the one who was being lied to?  Grow up, hypocrite.

And Elaine also points out that sneaking kisses under tables is not really forthright behavior from Captain Honesty, there.  She also touches on the awkwardness of the off-screen Lauren/Sockless Tommy breakup, which I didn't get into, but screams "poorly-cut scene".  If Lauren's going to spend the whole episode reacting to the breakup, then show the damn breakup.  It was annoying.

About the only part where I disagreed with Elaine was her saying that although she was repulsed by the decision to have Amy fuck Liam and what it meant outside of the story, inside the story she could see Amy going there because we've seen Amy have bad impulses before.  Yes, but…I don't believe she would have that bad impulse.  Smashing Liam with the champagne bottle and permanently scarring his allegedly-pretty face makes much more sense to me…if a girl rejects me for a guy, my impulse on seeing him would be more "kill, kill" than "well, I'm gonna fuck him, too!  That's gonna prove…something".  After all, Amy has just been rejected…why should she think Liam would want to have sex with her?  Rejection is not good for the self-esteem, I find.

Not to mention that, while Amy has never given two seconds thought to Liam's love life before this, if she does now, she would realize that Liam has rejected her, too.  "Why did he chase after Karma if he just wanted to bang a lesbian? Why her, and not me?"  If she'd seen the vomitous "I'm the Portia, right?" conversation that Karma and Liam had in 1.03, she'd be even less likely to conceive that Liam would have any interest in her, but somehow Amy gets "let's fuck" into her head the moment she sees Liam.  Insecurity be damned, no man can resist my lesbian vagina!  For fuck's sake.

And yes, I used the word "conceive" up there for a reason.  I put the chances that Amy will become pregnant with Liam's fetus due to this encounter as at least 50%.  It's "fresh" and "edgy" and keeps Amy tied into the Liam/Karma story, right?  Carter's probably writing a "Karma collapses, sobbing in jealousy" scene as I type…

 

I read that interview and I honestly don't see [Carter] as 100% doing PR. I think he does mean every word that he says. I think he does have a plan and even knowing the reaction of fans, he's sticking with it.

 

I'm sure he has a plan, but that doesn't make it a good one.  His "plan" is still misogynistic, disrespects lesbians in a way he'd never disrespect gay men, and is a contrived mess that only exists for shock value.  And now that he's admitted that he thinks the "endgame" couple getting together means "end of show", any further Karmy crumbs will be nothing but blatant queerbaiting.  Which is why I "plan" to not watch.

 

Sexual orientation is a tricky subject and not everyone can put themselves into one specific group off the bat.

 

Every man on this show has;  Liam, Shane, Pablo, Sockless Tommy, they all know which way they bend.  Whereas, of the three major female characters, only Lauren's shown any certainty.  (Well, and Karma in this episode, but not, I would argue, in the series as a whole.)

 

As for Liam, I was annoyed that he showed up at the wedding, but it's not like he's the only bad guy in this scenario.

 

Karma's mistakes don't make Liam any less of a douchebag.  And while Karma, Shane, and Lauren have all done compassionate, friendly things over the course of the series (and Amy is our POV character, so naturally she has our sympathy), Liam has been nothing but a "heteronormative bro-douche" since he was all "hey, I told Brandi it was just casual, it's not my fault if she's so stupid she catches feelings" in the pilot.

 

He told Karma he wanted to sleep with her because nailing a lesbian was every guy's fantasy.    He led a protest that turned out not to be about the actual issues but about his taking out his aggression towards his family.  He used and reused the same corny "I don't see gender, I just see the person" line at the Twain.  (Um, so how many guys have you "not seen gender" with, exactly, Liam?)  He resented Shane dragging him out of there, even though Shane did it to spare him arrest.  He had to be checked by Shane about disrespecting Amy in a way he'd (allegedly) never disrespect a girl's boyfriend.  He tells Karma he wanted to break up her and Amy because it would make him feel special.  He's fine with helping Karma lie to the whole school about their relationship, but Satan forbid Karma lies to Sensitive Art Boy! He's the douchiest douche that ever douched, Amy-sexing aside.

 

Oh, and his idea of revenge on Karma is to sleep with her best friend?  He can't work out his anger by running back to Soleil/Brandi/whomever, he has to ruin Karma's relationship with her best friend?  Douche.

 

Karma is clearly still in some sort of denial of her feelings.

 

Apparently not; the 'ship-wrecking was quite thorough in this regard.  Not just the textual denial, but the absolute lack of hesitation/subtext.  Karma's utter non-interest is black-letter canon, as far as I can see here.  Any retcons down the road would just be pandering, not that CC would ever go that far, IMO.

 

I think that the roles could have been reversed and it could have been two guy best friends finding out about their feelings toward one another with a girl caught in the middle

 

Well, we'll never know, because that story doesn't get told.  Seriously, has there been a gay male character who "questioned" his way into a woman's bed since Steven Carrington, back in the 1980s?  (And that story got so much flak, I understand, that Steven quickly decided that yes, he was gay, damn it, and Claudia went crazy and eventually died in a fire.)  Did the Queer as Folk boys have girls on the side?  Will & Grace went for years and years without the title couple actually coupling, even though the actors had lots of chemistry, since Eric McCormack isn't actually gay and Debra Messing apparently digs digging on her co-stars, if her smashing her marriage during Smash is any indication.

 

But pole-dancing is apparently a vital part of every girl's story, no matter how lesbian she might claim to be, the silly thing.

 

So, after her "how do you know if you haven't tried it" comment to Karma, might it not cross a (drunken) Amy's mind to check out what made Karma so sure?

 

So the show is now validating the idea that lesbians are just confused, they just need a man?  Good to know, I guess.

 

In reality, of course, there is so much heteronormative "programming" (including pretty much all the programming on TV) that it's not impossible for gay/bi/non-straight teens to really never have seriously considered "being gay".  (Despite, as possibilities pointed out, erotic feelings usually being pretty specific in their focus.) OTOH, Amy has spent 15 years not showing any significant interest in men, despite all the pushes society has given to her;  I don't think she really needs to take a ride on Little Liam just to be sure.

 

(And she already kissed Oliver for pretty much that exact reason.  Experiment conclusive, no need to repeat. But JMO.)

 

wayne67, Season 2 wil be 10 episodes long.

Edited by DAngelus
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I can see Amy and Liam having sex because they aren't really having sex with each other but using each other as a substitute for Karma.  Add to this that they're both being fueled by anger, pain and alcohol and it makes sense.  Personally I would much rather have had it end with Amy calling Jasmine and breaking down to her or even her and Lauren making out but this also makes sense to me.  I don't however think this makes Amy bi or even confused.  I think it makes her (and Liam) drunk, angry, hurt and more than a little dumb.  I also believe that the first lines of Season 2 (should there be one) should be "Oh shit, whatthefuck were we thinking?"

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As I posted elsewhere, Liam seems to be easily the least self aware of the characters (contrast to Lauren and Shane who at least realise to varying degrees that they can be terrible) and those few moments of self awareness seem to be quickly snuffed out by him and the fact he hasn't faced any consequences for his actions so far probably don't go down with a lot of people very well at all either.

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Every man on this show has;  Liam, Shane, Pablo, Sockless Tommy, they all know which way they bend.

 

 

Well, that's because they're all (relatively) supporting characters. Shane and Liam are more major characters, yes, but their purposes for the story are to be the gay male and straight male, so there's no complexity at all when it comes down to it. They're just what they are, and for me, that's more boring than Amy and Karma, who aren't as defined. I don't mind the females being less defined because we can actually go through their journey of accepting themselves for who they are. We don't see that with the males, so we're just plopped down in the same-old romance storylines.

 

Karma's mistakes don't make Liam any less of a douchebag.

 

 

Oh, absolutely. I am not saying at all that Liam isn't a douchebag. He is a douche because of his actions with Karma and how he does treat women less fairly than they should be. From my experience, that's most teenage boys (not all, of course, but I've known a bunch of Liams). Shane's even a douchebag in his own way. I think the point I'm trying to make is that it isn't as simple as saying Liam's the only douche in the situation. His actions with Karma in particular (not with Brandi or his flirting with the women at the bar) are due to her letting everyone think that she is a lesbian and with Amy. He's still in the wrong for pursuing Karma, no doubt. He needs to own up to his actions. But there can't be a negation of Karma's actions, as hers started this whole spiral of lies and deceit. Shane's actions in 'outing' them definitely started this too, so really, everyone has been a douchebag. I won't say Amy has, except for the last 20 seconds, but everyone on this show has their moments and Liam is just part of the problem, which I find some people are forgetting (not you in particular, but others).

 

Yes, but…I don't believe she would have that bad impulse.  Smashing Liam with the champagne bottle and permanently scarring his allegedly-pretty face makes much more sense to me…if a girl rejects me for a guy, my impulse on seeing him would be more "kill, kill" than "well, I'm gonna fuck him, too!  That's gonna prove…something".  After all, Amy has just been rejected…why should she think Liam would want to have sex with her?  Rejection is not good for the self-esteem, I find.

 

 

I can partially agree with this. I mean, we've never really seen her drunk so we know sober she probably wouldn't have that bad impulse, but in her state at the time? Television shows like to showcase mistakes being made when under the influence of alcohol. Now I'll admit I'm actually not a drinker, so I don't know how realistic these things are. And reactions toward emotional states affect different people. I would personally go cry in my room if I was sober, but when I'm drunk? The couple of times I have gotten drunk, I can range from an angry person to a giggly school-girl so it's possible Amy's an angry impulsive drunk. There's no doubt she'll regret her actions in the morning, and I'll bet Liam will too, but from what we know of Amy, it's not entirely unrealistic that her anger wouldn't lead to something happening with Liam, if only for the subconscious curiosity of why Karma likes Liam and if he's the reason why Karma rejected her.

 

Oh, and his idea of revenge on Karma is to sleep with her best friend?

 

I doubt he went after Amy to sleep with her for revenge on Karma. If this is true, then we can easily say Amy slept with Liam to get revenge on Karma and to hurt her by sleeping with the guy that she rejected her for. So they're both douches in this sense then.

 

I do want to establish once more that I like this show a lot, and I like all the characters because they're nowhere near perfect; actually I find they're very realistic, but I also get that people have different experiences and different points of view so I think we all are right in a sense.

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A postscript:  I'd be more than open to a bit of Lauren interruptus with her throwing the door open and tossing a shoe at them and saying "What the Hell are you thinking!"

 

And yeah a male who's confused about his sexuality would be nice to see too.

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Seriously, why couldn't Liam have slept with Lauren?  She was there, she's single, she craves Liam's popularity, she'd love to screw Liam to get revenge on Shane, and she might even have seen it as an act of sisterhood towards Amy.  Amy would have been put in the position of her best friend and her stepsister fighting over a man Amy can't stand, where any move Amy makes to support Karma/Liam would make her nauseous and not being supportive would probably make Karma think this was a scheme to woo her back.  Plenty of meat there, I'd think.

 

(Note:  "Plenty of meat" is not a comment on the size of Little Liam.  Although I guess Little Liam can't be too little, if his success rate is to be believed.)

 

ETA:

 

 

Oh, and his idea of revenge on Karma is to sleep with her best friend?

I doubt he went after Amy to sleep with her for revenge on Karma. If this is true, then we can easily say Amy slept with Liam to get revenge on Karma and to hurt her by sleeping with the guy that she rejected her for. So they're both douches in this sense then.

 

If Liam was just after sex, he had hours to pursue it, an entire phone full of willing girls' numbers, and even attractive cater-waiters right at the party.  (And, as noted, Lauren, and hell, even Shane.)  He doesn't appear to have had sex at all on his mind until he sees Amy.  So unless he's been secretly in love with Amy the entire time (IT WAS ALL A GIANT SWERVE!), yes, I think it was about hurting Karma.

 

And yes, certainly I think Amy's grabbing Liam out of revenge, and to hurt Karma.  She sure as hell isn't in love with him, and I really doubt that  she's all "well, it's not happening with Karma, may as well join the crowd and boink guys".

 

And hell yes, they're both being douchey.  The two differences are that Amy has never acted this douchey before, and generally seems to think she's a lesbian.  

 

Whereas Liam is a douche to every girl he meets, literally every other episode—

 

1.01 with Brandi:  as long as I tell her I don't have feelings I'm not responsible for any she might develop and I can totally have sex with her and not feel bad about it!

 

1.03 with Soleil:  We're drawn together by this great passion that we share for the issues…except that's not my actual motivation for the protests and I'm lying to her about it.

 

1.05 with the girls at The Twain: I'm feeding you this recycled "I don't see gender" pickup line, which is a lie since I only date women.

 

1.07 with Karma: I wanted to break you and Amy up!  I wanted to be so important that you'd betray your sexuality and your relationship for me!  Validate me, damn it!

 

—and having sex with Amy doesn't require him to rewrite his orientation, the way it requires Amy to rewrite hers.

 

So Liam, repugnant as his actions are, is acting entirely within his character by having hate-sex with Amy.  Amy? Not so much, even leaving out the abysmal "lesbians sleep with men all the time" meta-aspect.  But JMO.

Edited by DAngelus
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Iffy on this show. Karma sucks. Liam sucks. Both boring characters. I like Amy, like Lauren, sure if Shane was played by a less charismatic guy I wouldn't like him.

Obvs the last twenty seconds was a shitshow. Way to nearly ruin your best character for little to no reason at all. Shades of South of Nowhere which turned into Everything Aiden. Liam is not an interesting character and he never faces consequences for his douchery. Guarantee he won't next season, either, I read the showrunner will have Liam's dick and how it's been everywhere will "inform" the second season. Sounds awful, huh?

Also if Karma has no thang for Amy then stop directing her to look like Doug just got kissed by Patty Mayonnaise every other time. Purposeful on the creator's fault, to build their chemistry then retcon in when they decide Liam wants to fuck one or both.

Cute show, I found it mildly clever and saw it through to the finale, where anyone can see they threw away a lot of goodwill.

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The virginity thing: Depends. The first time doesn't have to hurt. It almost certainly will if both parties are virgins, but that's down to incompetence. The Amy encounter.. yhea, that ought not be fun.

It's not unknown for a girl to do a little "prep work" to make her first time a bit smoother. With how cool Karma's mom is, I'm sure Karma wouldn't have even had to go to the internet. Amy, with a conservative mother, and getting together with Liam on the spur of the moment, yeah, she's likely in store for a rougher time, even though Liam has an incentive to make sure his partners enjoy themselves as much as possible (at least if he wants to keep getting any girl he wants).

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I don't think the conversation between Karma and Amy took away from ep 1-6. First when Karma is saying that it was hot and trying to dismiss, you see her take a step back and start shaking her head and her voice slightly flustered. She does the same thing earlier when she is lying to Liam about Amy knowing about the plans for the breakup and her being with Liam.  For the most part, I think Karma has pretty much done whatever she could to try to brush that moment aside. She has been all about trying to get with Liam and have this perfect ideal of her high school life: being popular with a hot boyfriend and still having Amy right by her side as her best friend. I mean at the beginning of the ep. It isn't enough to be with Liam she also wants to make sure that they will not lose their popularity by coming out as a couple too soon. Basically she just seems like the kind of person who will rationalize and compartmentalize anything that doesn't fit into her ideal picture until it does.

 

The audience has been lucky with the character of Amy in that she has someone in Shane that she can be unfiltered with. With Karma it always seemed like she was always trying to be whatever she needed to be to get what she wanted. Hopefully next year we get a chance to see the real Karma and what she really feels.

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Now that I think about it, it just seems so gross that both girls are losing it to the same guy.  That's going to be awkward as hell down the road, even if Amy suddenly turns straight and the girls go back to being totally platonic besties.  "Guys are so silly.  Remember that idiot I gave my virginity to?  Oh, of course you do, you ran out and slept with him because you couldn't have me!  Good times, good times."

 

As one AE commenter pointed out, Liam is actually sleeping with both the girls in less than 24 hours!  And why stop there?  Lauren is right across the hall…come on, Booker, get that hat trick!  You can do it, bro!

 

And, speaking of that horrible final encounter…how exactly does Amy know that Karma and Liam fought/broke up?  Karma didn't tell her.  Liam didn't tell her.  Shane, the only other person who might have knowledge (although Liam's fight with Karma came after Shane spilled the beans) is off busily sucking face with LoLo.  (But…celibately.)

 

Seriously, if I'm Amy and I see Liam up against that fence, my first thought is going to be "you asshole".  If I notice Karma's not with him, my second thought will be "where's Karma?"  If I notice Liam seems upset, my next thought will be "OMG, something happened to Karma!  We had this stupid fight and now Karma got hit by a bus and it's ALL MY FAULT!"  If Liam tells me they fought (although he doesn't seem like talking), I'm probably going to think "she couldn't deny her feelings any longer!  I have to be with her!" before Liam gives me all the details, if I let him.

 

But if Amy, having no reason to believe that Karma/Liam aren't still a couple, just jumps on Liam's bones to hurt Karma/screw the gay away/lose herself in carnal lust with a guy she has every reason to believe is Karma's boyfriend, then she's a bigger douche than he could ever be, and the character assassination is even worse.

 

I don't believe that's Carter's intent;  I think he wanted his "shock" ending without the burden of having to include dialogue in the scene, not to mention that not giving Gregg Sulkin lines is usually a good idea.  But hack writing that ignores plotholes to get a cheap, emotional reaction was never a favorite of mine.  (See "they made her out of me", for example.)

Edited by DAngelus
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