S07.E05: Selfless

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; Lovely to see Anya singing in her gorgeous wedding dress again. Great scenes between Anya and Halfrek, wonderful Swedish scenes and a terrific ending. Also like Buffy's busy school day.

The Bad; ?

Best line; Villager; "Pelt him with fruits and various meats!"

Women good/men bad; D'Hoffryn kills Halfrek to spite Anya, almost like killing one of his daughters. What the Frat boys do to the girl is horrible but doesn't warrant having your heart torn out.

Jeez!; Frat boys with their hearts ripped out! Not the ep for you if you're arachnophobic (we know Willow is from 'Nightmares' but she appears to keep it in check)

Kinky dinky; Love Will's miniskirt and booties, you forget what a hot momma-yomma she can be sometimes! Buffy comments that Anya 'boned a troll' whilst Anya refers to the 'sweaty' part of a relationship.

Captain Subtext; Xander refers to himself as 'giddy' which even Willow comments isn't a very masculine term.

Guantanamo Bay; Buffy is prepared to kill Anya for the greater good, Xander doesn't want to. Buffy makes a good point that Spike, Angelus, The Master etc never chose to be evil, Anya chose to become a vengeance demon once again and poses an ongoing threat to humanity. Also do we doubt that Xander and certainly Giles would have killed Angelus in season 2 if they could have?

Missing scenes; I would love to have seen the scene where D'Hoffryn looks at the slaughtered frat boys and says someone should phone Maxim and cancel 12 subscriptions, perhaps a comment on the Buffy/Angel girl's tendency to strip off and pose for that particular magazine seemingly at the drop of a hat (or a large cheque/free publicity for their upcoming projects?). Also interesting on the commentary is that they wanted Halfrek to appear to Anya in 'Conversations with Dead People'.

Scoobies knocked out: yep, Xander

Kills: demon spider for Buffy

Scoobies go evil: Anya does although she's not technically a Scooby at this point

Recurring characters killed: Halfrek but she's evil so she doesn't count-12

Sunnydale deaths; 12 frat boys dead but alive again by the end of the ep 99

What the fanficcers thought; Read a bizarre one once called Web of Desire where Buffy and Xander are captured by the demon spider and Buffy get's impregnated by it (which is normally Cordy's job?). But in the follow up story The Black Widow they both escape after Buffy beguiles the spider with her feminine wiles and strangles it with it's own web because SHE's the Black Widow, she mates and then she kills (she certainly did with Angel!). You know what they say about the female of the species?

Also a much funnier one is where Anyanka's bunny fear stems from her cursing an unfaithful man to 'Go like a bunny forever' whereupon he is turned into a killer rabbit which goes on to attack Gabrielle in the Xena ep 'In sickness and in hell' and takes on the Monty Python's Knights of the Round table before being finished off by the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch!

Questions and observations; Very little Dawn in this one (plenty of her next ep), she only has one scene but it's Anya's ep so that's OK. A wonderful tour de force showing us all how much we've learned to love and care about Anya who was introduced as a one-note character 4 years back but who is now a regular and so deserves to be! Especially love her little vengeful stare when she first meets D'Hoffryn.

Buffy still doesn't know about Xander's lie in Becoming pt2, another point against Normal Again being true but you wonder will he ever really pay for what he did? Dawn's advice to Willow about fitting in is reminiscent to that given to Bart by Homer Simpson. It never occurred to me until this ep but much like the end titles for season 6 having the Buffybot at the end this season

Spoiler

actually has the First-as-Buffy.

Unfortunately the last we'll ever see of D'Hoffryn or Halfrek. Anya comments she's good with math which is weird as we heard that she was failing it in season 3 (maybe running the Magic Shop improved it?). Anya's invented surname is Jenkins, did we know that before? A vengeance demon's 'soul' is referred to? The final scene is very reminiscent of the final bit 'The Harsh Light of Day'.

Marks out of 10; 10/10 first of the season

[lembergwatcher]

One of the worst Buffy episodes ever. Then again no Anya-centric episode is particularly good.

Honestly, I can't understand why of all secrets surrounding earlier seasons (Becoming, Part 2 to be precise) they chose to reveal the truth behind "Kick his ass" but not the truth about "I love you"? If the writers wanted to disturb the old ghosts so badly, they could've told both secrets. And what exactly was the point of the whole "revealing the truth" thing if it had no profound effect on either the dynamic  of the SG or further story development? The Lie™ was totally irrelevant as of 2002 (Angel was still undead and B/A romance was just a distant memory). I guess Joss and his team understand the purpose of it all, 'cause I sure as hell don't.

Btw Selfless is one of those few cases when Buffy was free to ignore Xander's blathering and finish Anyanka off. Yet she decided to do otherwise. Sigh. 

[Halting Hex]

Half a fine episode (the first half), which falls to pieces after the midway point.  New writer Drew Goddard throws in a bunch of "continuity porn" to prove he saw Becoming, Part 2, which is nice (Marti Noxon has still never seen Season 1) but largely irrelevant…even if capping Buffy's Angel-histrionics with Willow's "And that all worked out okay" made me laugh so hard I spit the food I was eating across the room.  Yes, the absurdity of unwriting Broody Boy's well-earned fate just so we can have the spinoff qualifies as "working out okay", I guess.  Sigh.

Meantime, we bury Willow's "I never said that!" with Buffy not paying attention so that there's no acknowledgement, no realization that Buffy's been carrying around a grudge against her "best friend" and misjudging her (and perhaps subconsciously pulling away, even before we get to the overt iciness of the UPN days) for four years now.  Because Ms. Perfect Buffy can never be wrong…Xander "betrayed" Buffy with "The Lie", but Buffy certainly hasn't betrayed Willow in her reactions to it, nope!  Sheesh.

Moar later.  But three quick points:

10 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Very little Dawn in this one (plenty of her next ep), she only has one scene but it's Anya's ep so that's OK.

No, it isn't.  Better writing would integrate the whole cast.  I mean, I don't mind Spike having just one irrelevant scene, but Dawn's supposed to be a main character; she should be treated as such.

10 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Anya's invented surname is Jenkins, did we know that before?

Yes, she tells the Watcher's Council this in giving her fictitious "biography" in Checkpoint.

10 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

A vengeance demon's 'soul' is referred to?

Demonic "souls" have been referred to since Giles described the making of the first vampire, back in The Harvest. ("He was a human form possessed, infected by the demon's soul.")  It's just a term for an animating spirit, not a human soul ("an urge to do what's right", per Wesley in Five By Five) that elevates you. (Vampires referred to each other as "souls" in School Hard and The Wish, as well.)

Edited November 9, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Jack Shaftoe]

Vastly inferior remake of Becoming. That's how I can describe this episode in short.

The problem is, in Becoming it's very easy to see why Buffy is conflicted about Angel. When she first met him he wasn't a psychopath full of wistfulness for his days of murder. I never liked the guy, don't get me wrong, but I can see why Buffy doesn't blame him for what he does sans soul.

On the other hand, Xander only got to know Anya because she came to Sunnydale specifically to ruin his life. She created a whole dark alternative world and very much enjoyed that Cordelia, the person who made the wish, died in it too. After losing her powers she missed her days of murders very much. Xander knew perfectly well that Anya was a psychopath. Yet he was willing to date her. The he and Buffy tolerated Anyanka 2.0 for months for no reason. And now I am supposed to be conflicted about whether Anya deserves another chances because she showed some signs of having a conscience for once? Sorry, can't do. She deserves nothing.

The fact that Xander can say without any sarcasm the line "This isn't new ground for us. When our friends go all crazy and start killing people, we help them." speaks volumes about how much the show had lost its way. It so desperately tried to replicate the success of season 2 that we had all those "X goes dark" storylines. Problem is, Anya doesn't have Angel's excuse and even if she did, Angel was actually sent to hell for a while. Anya... gets punished by seeing Halfrek die. Who cares about Halfrek? Why would D'Hoffryn kill her to punish Anya? Since when is he so idiotically Bond villain-ish?

The "fallout" to the Lie is just hilarious. I refuse to believe Buffy is dumb enough to believe Willow actually said "kick his ass" for all those years. The time to address that was season 3 or never.

[lembergwatcher]

11 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Xander knew perfectly well that Anya was a psychopath. Yet he was willing to date her.

They all knew perfectly well who Anya was, for that matter. She would never have ended up in the Scooby Gang if Buffy, Willow and Giles weren't OK with that.

[Spartan Girl]

11 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Half a fine episode (the first half), which falls to pieces after the midway point.  New writer Drew Goddard throws in a bunch of "continuity porn" to prove he saw Becoming, Part 2, which is nice (Marti Noxon has still never seen Season 1) but largely irrelevant…even if capping Buffy's Angel-histrionics with Willow's "And that all worked out okay" made me laugh so hard I spit the food I was eating across the room.  Yes, the absurdity of unwriting Broody Boy's well-earned fate just so we can have the spinoff qualifies as "working out okay", I guess.  Sigh.

Meantime, we bury Willow's "I never said that!" with Buffy not paying attention so that there's no acknowledgement, no realization that Buffy's been carrying around a grudge against her "best friend" and misjudging her (and perhaps subconsciously pulling away, even before we get to the overt iciness of the UPN days) for four years now.  Because Ms. Perfect Buffy can never be wrong…Xander "betrayed" Buffy with "The Lie", but Buffy certainly hasn't betrayed Willow in her reactions to it, nope!  Sheesh.

 

Two things, and then I'll shut up:

1) Buffy already figured out The Lie back in season 3 when Giles and Willow asked her what happened with the spelll, and highly doubt she blamed Willow for it.

2) Buffy's hypocrisy does not mitigate Xander's hypocrisy -- he felt entitled to look down his nose at Buffy's questionable taste in men, but he didn't seem to care that Anya had murdered countless people in her past just like Angel and Spike. 

[Halting Hex]

3 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Anya... gets punished by seeing Halfrek die. Who cares about Halfrek?

Well, I was happy about it.  Does that count?

3 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Why would D'Hoffryn kill her to punish Anya? Since when is he so idiotically Bond villain-ish?

"Never go for the kill when you can go for the pain!"  Sheesh.  Might just have well have said "I'm going to put Anya in an overly-ornate and easily-escapable death-trap" and have done with it.

Spoiler

And of course, D'Hasselhoff's foregoing of "the kill" lasts all the way until the start of Act 1 of the very next episode, when we discover that he's changed his mind and wants Anya dead, after all.  But on the plus side, Halfrek is still very much deceased, so I count that as a win.

And let's not forget the cheap shock of ending Act III by having Buffy stab Anyanka with the sword…which Buffy knows isn't the way you kill a vengeance demon…and then apparently "Lady Hacks-away" just stands there, doing nothing, while we have a commercial break, and then Anya has a flashback*, and then Anya wakes up and takes the sword!  So very, very stupid!

*—and wow, do I hate that flashback.  For three reasons:

1)  It was clearly a cheap excuse to shove in another song.  "Hey, everybody loved Once More, with Spuffy!  Let's do another song, and pretend it's an out-take, or something!" Cheap, Drew-ski, cheap.

2)  The continuity was terrible.  Anya hadn't even found that dress as of 6.07 (she was still looking in the bridal mags in Smashed) and, somehow, Satan only knows how, her hair doesn't match!  Seriously, how tough is it to look at OMwF and give Emma a wig that matches?  Took me completely out of the scene.

3)  By this point, the writing staff had obviously heard of the "Xander was just covering for Dawn" fan theory, so Goddard tries to "prove" that Xander summoned Sweet by having him mumbling something about "a happy ending".  Of course, this doesn't actually prove shit.  All it means is that if Xander was lying for Dawn's sake, we now know why he chose that particular lie…it doesn't "prove" whether he was lying or not.

I'm also annoyed that given how D'Hoffryn only shows up because Willow summoned him and how much of an emotional wrench that must have been (you think Willow liked looking at that talisman, after all she'd been through, and being reminded that D'H thought she was demon material? I don't), Goddard doesn't even have Willow show up for the climax.  But why have character development when we can have cheap shocks and pointless songs? Ugh.

And the Big Moral that Anya takes from this episode is?  "All my life, I've just clung to what's around me."  The hell?  Didn't we just see that Aud was completely different from the rest of her Swedish town?  That she was confounding Olaf by giving away the bunnies?  That she was doing vengeance spells before she ever met D'Hoffryn?  Doesn't seem much like a clinger, at least as far as we've seen.  

But still a good episode, on the whole.  Just a pity it went downhill after such a strong start.

[Joe Hellandback]

21 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

One of the worst Buffy episodes ever. Then again no Anya-centric episode is particularly good.

Honestly, I can't understand why of all secrets surrounding earlier seasons (Becoming, Part 2 to be precise) they chose to reveal the truth behind "Kick his ass" but not the truth about "I love you"? If the writers wanted to disturb the old ghosts so badly, they could've told both secrets. And what exactly was the point of the whole "revealing the truth" thing if it had no profound effect on either the dynamic  of the SG or further story development? The Lie™ was totally irrelevant as of 2002 (Angel was still undead and B/A romance was just a distant memory). I guess Joss and his team understand the purpose of it all, 'cause I sure as hell don't.

Btw Selfless is one of those few cases when Buffy was free to ignore Xander's blathering and finish Anyanka off. Yet she decided to do otherwise. Sigh. 

Really? Not The Wish or Triangle or Dopplegangland? Hell's Belles I grant you. As for the secret I think that was a demand from the fans but they were very clever with it, we all held our breath when Willow said it but then groaned when she's ignored, it was one tremendous tease. 

[Joe Hellandback]

4 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Well, I was happy about it.  Does that count?

"Never go for the kill when you can go for the pain!"  Sheesh.  Might just have well have said "I'm going to put Anya in an overly-ornate and easily-escapable death-trap" and have done with it.

  Hide contents

And of course, D'Hasselhoff's foregoing of "the kill" lasts all the way until the start of Act 1 of the very next episode, when we discover that he's changed his mind and wants Anya dead, after all.  But on the plus side, Halfrek is still very much deceased, so I count that as a win.

And let's not forget the cheap shock of ending Act III by having Buffy stab Anyanka with the sword…which Buffy knows isn't the way you kill a vengeance demon…and then apparently "Lady Hacks-away" just stands there, doing nothing, while we have a commercial break, and then Anya has a flashback*, and then Anya wakes up and takes the sword!  So very, very stupid!

*—and wow, do I hate that flashback.  For three reasons:

1)  It was clearly a cheap excuse to shove in another song.  "Hey, everybody loved Once More, with Spuffy!  Let's do another song, and pretend it's an out-take, or something!" Cheap, Drew-ski, cheap.

2)  The continuity was terrible.  Anya hadn't even found that dress as of 6.07 (she was still looking in the bridal mags in Smashed) and, somehow, Satan only knows how, her hair doesn't match!  Seriously, how tough is it to look at OMwF and give Emma a wig that matches?  Took me completely out of the scene.

3)  By this point, the writing staff had obviously heard of the "Xander was just covering for Dawn" fan theory, so Goddard tries to "prove" that Xander summoned Sweet by having him mumbling something about "a happy ending".  Of course, this doesn't actually prove shit.  All it means is that if Xander was lying for Dawn's sake, we now know why he chose that particular lie…it doesn't "prove" whether he was lying or not.

I'm also annoyed that given how D'Hoffryn only shows up because Willow summoned him and how much of an emotional wrench that must have been (you think Willow liked looking at that talisman, after all she'd been through, and being reminded that D'H thought she was demon material? I don't), Goddard doesn't even have Willow show up for the climax.  But why have character development when we can have cheap shocks and pointless songs? Ugh.

And the Big Moral that Anya takes from this episode is?  "All my life, I've just clung to what's around me."  The hell?  Didn't we just see that Aud was completely different from the rest of her Swedish town?  That she was confounding Olaf by giving away the bunnies?  That she was doing vengeance spells before she ever met D'Hoffryn?  Doesn't seem much like a clinger, at least as far as we've seen.  

But still a good episode, on the whole.  Just a pity it went downhill after such a strong start.

I CARED about Halkyrek and it was SUCH a shock, last thing you were expecting. I agree that it makes no sense that 

Spoiler

D'Hoffryn later sends an assassin to kill Anya but maybe that was on the instructions of the First? 

Loved the song and never noticed her hair, I figure Buffy just stands there as she's so shocked at what she's just done but she knows it takes more to kill a vengence demon. I never subscribed to the Xander covered for Dawn theory, I just took it at face value. 

 Aud was always the outsider and clung to her boyfriend, Anyanka clung to Halfyrek and D'Hoffryn and Anya clung to Xander (and Giles?). 

[Halting Hex]

19 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Really? Not The Wish or Triangle or Dopplegangland?

I'm reasonably sure that Döppelgängland is not an Anya-centric episode.  She has a nice part, but we get four Willows and virtually every scene (bar the Faith/Mayor apartment unveiling, Anya questing for the beer and various "mourning" scenes) features at least one of them, IIRC.  But JMO.

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Really? Not The Wish or Triangle or Dopplegangland? Hell's Belles I grant you.

The Wish is quite interesting ep but not the one I'd like to rewatch too often. Doppelgangland is a Willow-centric episode. At least from where I'm standing. Triangle could've been a funny one, but is filled with logical inconsistencies. Hell's Bells? Except for Xillow moment and cancellation of the whole wedding thing I'm totally indifferent about it.

 

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

As for the secret I think that was a demand from the fans but they were very clever with it, we all held our breath when Willow said it but then groaned when she's ignored, it was one tremendous tease.

As Master Joss himself once said: "What people want is not what they need". The Lie™ was totally irrelevant as of 2002. The small child could have figured everything out back in season 3. And what did you expect to happen after Willow blurted the truth out? You thought Buffy was going to hack Xander to pieces? Well, I wouldn't be surprised if she tried, but... that made absolutely no sense (and Angel(us) deserved it, after all).

 

7 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Buffy's hypocrisy does not mitigate Xander's hypocrisy -- he felt entitled to look down his nose at Buffy's questionable taste in men, but he didn't seem to care that Anya had murdered countless people in her past just like Angel and Spike.

Well, if it was OK for Buffy and Willow to date monsters (the ones with different levels of monstrosity, but monsters nevertheless), why should Xander care? I think the whole Xanya abomination happened because the writers wanted to delight Bangel fans and portray Xander as equally bad and promiscuous as Buffy (thus denying him the moral high ground displayed during seasons 2 & 3). 

[Jack Shaftoe]

10 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

They all knew perfectly well who Anya was, for that matter. She would never have ended up in the Scooby Gang if Buffy, Willow and Giles weren't OK with that.

I am aware of that and this does make the whole thing all the more stupid. Anya is not only a murderous psychopath but her specialty is killing boyfriends/husbands who have pissed off their significant others. The lack of strong reaction from Buffy and Willow is extremely out of character. Not to mention that we actually have an example of Xander rejecting someone like Anya - namely Ampata (who at least killed people to keep herself alive, unlike Anya, by the way) which makes his acceptance of Anya even more absurd.

Quote

Well, if it was OK for Buffy and Willow to date monsters (the ones with different levels of monstrosity, but monsters nevertheless), why should Xander care?

Because he certainly didn't like the idea when Buffy and Willow were doing it until he became convinced that Angel and Oz weren't so dangerous after all? Neither of the two was waxing lyrical about how much he missed murder. Also, Buffy and Willow got to know them before they learned their dark secrets, while Xander was perfectly aware of Anya's background from the start.

[lembergwatcher]

43 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Because he certainly didn't like the idea when Buffy and Willow were doing it until he became convinced that Angel and Oz weren't so dangerous after all?

Which proves Xander actually cared about his friends. While their seeming indifference on the matter speaks volumes.

 

51 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Also, Buffy and Willow got to know them before they learned their dark secrets, while Xander was perfectly aware of Anya's background from the start.

True. But the thing is Xander was the type of guy who sometimes couldn't put two and two together. And while he himself wasn't a poster-boy for maturity and good-decision making, there were people he called friends. Yes, he was aware of Anya's background but he had difficulties with thinking straight back then. After Xander's so-called friends learned about his intention to pick Anya as a prom date (Doppelgangland couldn't have been such a distant memory, after all) and downplayed everything as some sort of joke...  why couldn't Xander perceive their reaction as a silent approval (since their opinion mattered to him)? Of course, the Ascension was at hand but the main reason both Willow and Buffy appeared to be so indifferent was because the sun rose and set with Oz and Angel respectively. 

And while Angel wasn't waxing lyrical about his old days of mayhem and murder, Xander had eyes and could easily learn that even the most murderous background didn't matter to the Scoobs as long as the ex-murderer abstained from killings or was unable to do any serious harm. That of course doesn't make Xanya any less OOC in Xander's case. But JMO.

[Jack Shaftoe]

58 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

Of course, the Ascension was at hand but the main reason both Willow and Buffy appeared to be so indifferent was because the sun rose and set with Oz and Angel respectively. 

Nah, the main reason was Anya being rewritten in the clumsiest of fashions from Doppelgangland to The Prom, turning from a cunning dangerous manipulator into a funny harmless alien clueless about human ways. Nobody considered her actually dangerous which was all kinds of ridiculous but not a fault I can ascribe to this or that character only.

And since we are speaking of OOC, Anya going from "I hate men" to "I love Xander" so fast is also just as silly as the Scoobies' reaction to Anya. Anya's addition to the Scooby gang is ridiculous on so many levels that it's quite an achievement that Spike managed to integrate himself in an even more absurd fashion.

[Joe Hellandback]

23 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I'm reasonably sure that Döppelgängland is not an Anya-centric episode.  She has a nice part, but we get four Willows and virtually every scene (bar the Faith/Mayor apartment unveiling, Anya questing for the beer and various "mourning" scenes) features at least one of them, IIRC.  But JMO.

Yeah, point taken. 

18 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Which proves Xander actually cared about his friends. While their seeming indifference on the matter speaks volumes.

 

True. But the thing is Xander was the type of guy who sometimes couldn't put two and two together. And while he himself wasn't a poster-boy for maturity and good-decision making, there were people he called friends. Yes, he was aware of Anya's background but he had difficulties with thinking straight back then. After Xander's so-called friends learned about his intention to pick Anya as a prom date (Doppelgangland couldn't have been such a distant memory, after all) and downplayed everything as some sort of joke...  why couldn't Xander perceive their reaction as a silent approval (since their opinion mattered to him)? Of course, the Ascension was at hand but the main reason both Willow and Buffy appeared to be so indifferent was because the sun rose and set with Oz and Angel respectively. 

And while Angel wasn't waxing lyrical about his old days of mayhem and murder, Xander had eyes and could easily learn that even the most murderous background didn't matter to the Scoobs as long as the ex-murderer abstained from killings or was unable to do any serious harm. That of course doesn't make Xanya any less OOC in Xander's case. But JMO.

They all care, Angel was not responsible for Angelus' actions and was riven with guilt. Anya I grant you less so but her humanity was a work in process and again, Anya is not Anyanka

[Joe Hellandback]

17 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Nah, the main reason was Anya being rewritten in the clumsiest of fashions from Doppelgangland to The Prom, turning from a cunning dangerous manipulator into a funny harmless alien clueless about human ways. Nobody considered her actually dangerous which was all kinds of ridiculous but not a fault I can ascribe to this or that character only.

And since we are speaking of OOC, Anya going from "I hate men" to "I love Xander" so fast is also just as silly as the Scoobies' reaction to Anya. Anya's addition to the Scooby gang is ridiculous on so many levels that it's quite an achievement that Spike managed to integrate himself in an even more absurd fashion.

It was testament to the power of group reinforcement, stuck in a teenagers body/identity she began to think and act like one, re-embracing her humanity once more. Plus she's useful like Spike, her info on the Ascension, helping rescue the Scoobs in Fear Itself etc. as Buffy points out in Checkpoint. 

[Halting Hex]

29 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

It was testament to the power of group reinforcement, stuck in a teenager's body/identity she began to think and act like one

It's not even that, it's a function of the Wish itself.  To quote Anya in The Prom:

Quote

I took on the guise of a twelfth-grader to tempt [Cordelia] with the Wish. When I lost my powers I got stuck in this persona, and now I have all these feelings.

Apparently, she becomes who the job requires her to become.  Which makes her later "[I'm] newly-human and strangely literal" shtick so annoying.  

Chris (my unspoiled podcaster) loved Anya at first;  he likes straight-talkers (he's also a big Cordelia fan) and he thought her situation was fascinating, with her having seen so much (including an Ascension) and now being faced with experiencing life from a new perspective.  But he turned on her by Pangs, getting sick of the "I'm an alien and I have no idea how to behave around people" faux-naivety.  "What, does she pee on top of the toilet seat because she doesn't understand how that works, either?" he groused.  Well, I'd hope not.  But still, good point.

(Myself, I'm still [pardon the pun] pissed that Emma stopped using her lower vocal register after Fear, Itself.  As if Anya needed to be treated as more of a cartoon, ffs…)

And to get back to this episode, we note that Anyanka didn't take on the persona of a frat-victim to help closet girl (Rachel) unleash the Grimslaw demon on the jackasses.  She was just Anya.  So that bit of continuity's gone by the wayside, it appears.

(But in rereading the script, I have to give props to Goddard for introducing the conflict right away, with our finding Anya covered in blood and surrounded by slaughtered corpses at the end of the teaser.  Fine pacing.  As I've written, I like the first half of this episode very much.  It's only once Buffy starts that "I am the Law" crap that it goes so very much downhill, IMO.)

Edited November 11, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

They all care, Angel was not responsible for Angelus' actions

Oh yeah, they do. They just hide their concern for some unknown reason. Angel would be the very first one to disagree with you.

Quote

Buffy: I invited you into my home and then you attacked my family!
Angel: Why not? I killed mine. I killed their friends... and their friend's children... For a hundred years I offered ugly death to everyone I met, and I did it with a song in my heart.

Quote

Angel: I did a lot of unconscionable things when I became a vampire. (turns back, but doesn't make eye contact) Drusilla was the worst. She was... an obsession of mine. She was pure and sweet and chaste...
Buffy: And you made her a vampire.
Angel: First I made her insane. (looks at her) Killed everybody she loved. Visited every mental torture on her I could devise. (Buffy looks away) She eventually fled to a convent, and on the day she took her holy orders, I turned her into a demon.

 

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Anya is not Anyanka

Then why does she always refer to Anyanka's deeds as her own achievements? She does the "I" statements when it comes to Anyanka all the time. Maybe Anya Jenkins is not totally the same as the vengeance demon, but Anyanka's past crimes are her crimes nevertheless.

[Jack Shaftoe]

4 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

It was testament to the power of group reinforcement, stuck in a teenagers body/identity she began to think and act like one

Her body was exactly the same and she acted exactly the same when she was a demon and when she was a human once she was rewritten into the funny alien. Which happened as early as The Prom. If anything Anyanka 2.0 has a conscience while Anya does not which rips to pieces the notion that vengeance demons have no souls hence Anya isn't culpable for her crimes (which ignores Anya's wistfulness for her days of murder anyway).

Quote

Plus she's useful like Spike

But Spike is mostly useless and often even a liability. And it doesn't matter really, it's one thing to reluctantly use the help of an evil ally as Buffy did in Becoming II and another to accept the serial killer into your merry band of (supposed) heroes without much hesitation.

Edited November 11, 2018 by Jack Shaftoe

[Joe Hellandback]

21 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Oh yeah, they do. They just hide their concern for some unknown reason. Angel would be the very first one to disagree with you.

 

Then why does she always refer to Anyanka's deeds as her own achievements? She does the "I" statements when it comes to Anyanka all the time. Maybe Anya Jenkins is not totally the same as the vengeance demon, but Anyanka's past crimes are her crimes nevertheless.

But that's the same with Angel, he tells Buffy 'I' wished death on everyone I met, they find it hard to divorce themselves from whom they were but they're not the same people. 

19 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Her body was exactly the same and she acted exactly the same when she was a demon and when she was a human once she was rewritten into the funny alien. Which happened as early as The Prom. If anything Anyanka 2.0 has a conscience while Anya does not which rips to pieces the notion that vengeance demons have no souls hence Anya isn't culpable for her crimes (which ignores Anya's wistfulness for her days of murder anyway).

But Spike is mostly useless and often even a liability. And it doesn't matter really, it's one thing to reluctantly use the help of an evil ally as Buffy did in Becoming II and another to accept the serial killer into your merry band of (supposed) heroes without much hesitation.

 

Again, that's the nature of the soul, once Anya is human again and experiences having a soul she can't go back to being a pure demon once more? Spike is very useful, he has his ear to the demon underground and he's useful muscle, helping Xander get the antidote in Normal Again, helping everyone flee in Spiral etc. 

Edited November 12, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[Jack Shaftoe]

3 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Again, that's the nature of the soul, once Anya is human again and experiences having a soul she can't go back to being a pure demon once more?

Again, there is no evidence whatsoever to support that. Here are the facts:

- Anya was initially human and as far as we know so were all vengeance demons.

- From S3 to S6 Anya shows no remorse whatsoever for her crimes. Not even when confronted by some of her victims. Hell, she even dates and wants to marry one of her victims and has never expressed any regrets for what she did in The Wish other than missing her powers because she loves killing people that much.

- She only shows signs of conscience when she is Anyanka 2.0 and somehow we are supposed to believe it's due to her recent experience as a human somehow overriding her demonic soul, never mind that she was completely unrepentant as a human a mere months ago or that she lived for decades as a human prior to becoming Anyanka 1.0.? Sorry can't do.

Quote

But that's the same with Angel, he tells Buffy 'I' wished death on everyone I met, they find it hard to divorce themselves from whom they were but they're not the same people. 

How exactly is it the same? Angel blames himself rather than be proud of his days of murder, even though his excuse is far more valid than Anya.

[Joe Hellandback]

20 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Again, there is no evidence whatsoever to support that. Here are the facts:

- Anya was initially human and as far as we know so were all vengeance demons.

- From S3 to S6 Anya shows no remorse whatsoever for her crimes. Not even when confronted by some of her victims. Hell, she even dates and wants to marry one of her victims and has never expressed any regrets for what she did in The Wish other than missing her powers because she loves killing people that much.

- She only shows signs of conscience when she is Anyanka 2.0 and somehow we are supposed to believe it's due to her recent experience as a human somehow overriding her demonic soul, never mind that she was completely unrepentant as a human a mere months ago or that she lived for decades as a human prior to becoming Anyanka 1.0.? Sorry can't do.

How exactly is it the same? Angel blames himself rather than be proud of his days of murder, even though his excuse is far more valid than Anya.

She doesn't feel remorse because she was disassociated from her own personality, it was only when she experienced both sides it brings it home to her. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

6 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

She doesn't feel remorse because she was disassociated from her own personality, it was only when she experienced both sides it brings it home to her. 

She is so dissociated that literally no one in the show, including her, uses this excuse for her, IIRC. The only time the word soul is used in the episode (other than the obligatory mention of Spike's shiny new soul) is when D'Hoffryn says "In order to restore the lives of the victims, the fates require a sacrifice. The life and soul of a vengeance demon." and yet you insist vengeance demons have no soul/conscience? In a show where people just won't shut up about Spike and Angel's souls nobody ever bothers to use that particular justification for Anya. Doesn't that strike as a little strange?

Also, Anya had experienced both sides already a millennium ago so this is nothing new for her. Until season 7 she shows absolutely zero signs of any remorse. Spike, who is much berated by certain portions of the fandom for getting over his guilt too quickly spent months disoriented and (sort of) mad, even though he never really chose to become a vampire. Anya? Nope, she lost her powers and her first reaction is to try to get them back. No remorse, nothing. Then a few years later, she signed up to become a demon once again, knowing full well what the job entailed. Any way you slice it Anya is a psychopath and the most annoying thing is that she wasn't really portrayed that way on purpose, it happened because no writer cared enough for Anya to write her as more than comic relief except for one or two occasions per seasons. The reactions of the other characters who think she is just a more clueless Cordelia are pretty telling.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Jack Shaftoe

[Joe Hellandback]

18 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

She is so dissociated that literally no one in the show, including her, uses this excuse for her, IIRC. The only time the word soul is used in the episode (other than the obligatory mention of Spike's shiny new soul) is when D'Hoffryn says "In order to restore the lives of the victims, the fates require a sacrifice. The life and soul of a vengeance demon." and yet you insist vengeance demons have no soul/conscience? In a show where people just won't shut up about Spike and Angel's souls nobody ever bothers to use that particular justification for Anya. Doesn't that strike as a little strange?

Also, Anya had experienced both sides already a millennium ago so this is nothing new for her. Until season 7 she shows absolutely zero signs of any remorse. Spike, who is much berated by certain portions of the fandom for getting over his guilt too quickly spent months disoriented and (sort of) mad, even though he never really chose to become a vampire. Anya? Nope, she lost her powers and her first reaction is to try to get them back. No remorse, nothing. Then a few years later, she signed up to become a demon once again, knowing full well what the job entailed. Any way you slice it Anya is a psychopath and the most annoying thing is that she wasn't really portrayed that way on purpose, it happened because no writer cared enough for Anya to write her as more than comic relief except for one or two occasions per seasons. The reactions of the other characters who think she is just a more clueless Cordelia are pretty telling.

You're right, he says heart and soul. But Anya' regaining her humanity is a gradual process, she goes to hell and back to do so and ultimately

Spoiler

sacrifices herself. 

[Halting Hex]

So, wait…I'm usually annoyed by "I'll Be The Missus" because of the attempt to shove "Xander totally summoned Sweet!" down our throats or by how Anya is suddenly in a wedding dress she hadn't even found then, or by how her hair doesn't match, or by what it does to this episode's plot…and all the other stuff I've complained about.

But I switched back over to Once More, with Spuffy when the Judas Priest concert was in an ad-break (see my post in that thread) and I'd forgotten that Xander and Anya had already been singing that evening.  (Something about an argument leading to harmonies and "a dance with the coconuts".). I grant you that it's been a few decades since I saw this one, but I don't remember seeing coconuts scattered in the background here.

And if Xander had already been singing, wouldn't he be more likely to wake up for this number, rather than just believing their duet was a once-off until Buffy brings it up the next day?  Wouldn't Anya have mentioned that she sang multiple songs?  Sounds (pun?) like more lousy continuity here.  Not a surprise, I suppose.