sistermagpie August 11, 2019 Share August 11, 2019 7 hours ago, Roseanna said: Also, we didn't see Megan work to get roles in LA at all, only to live confortably and have parties and pay to Stephanie for not meeting Don. Nor did we see her with her agent - we only learned what her agent had said to Don. That perspective couldn't help to influence on the interpretation about Megan. Very good point! The story the agent tells is particularly interesting, actually, because it sounds very out of character for Megan. She doesn't usually make social mistakes like that and it's hard to even imagine her embarrassing herself, which it sounds like she did. It's like the story Pete tells about Lane's friend who vomited in the lap of the head of a dealership. (We see Don do similar things on screen so it comes across differently than just hearing about it.) On 8/9/2019 at 3:46 PM, Roseanna said: I agree. But in a way that's a problem. I mean, people who were sometimes horrible like Pete, surprised us sometimes with being extremely good. Meghan didn't do anything particularly good or bad. Therefore she wasn't interesting enough. And even more, people who were often horrible like Betty, ended the story with dignity. Meghan's exit was her worst moment. Yes, I really do feel like one of the main character traits of Megan was that she had plenty of good qualities, but wasn't somebody that you would much count on in time of trouble because she just wasn't very good at sticking things out under pressure or disappointment. With other characters I think we see them getting better through adversity but she seems to be the opposite. (I think she's a little like Ken that way, actually in that stress and suffering eventually seemed to make him less confident than he was before rather than more--but he wasn't as fragile as Megan.) 4 Link to comment
txhorns79 August 14, 2019 Share August 14, 2019 On 8/11/2019 at 12:22 PM, sistermagpie said: Yes, I really do feel like one of the main character traits of Megan was that she had plenty of good qualities, but wasn't somebody that you would much count on in time of trouble because she just wasn't very good at sticking things out under pressure or disappointment. I'd disagree. She responds very well under pressure with the Heinz account. I tend to think she fell apart in LA because she lacked a real sounding board for her concerns, and things were just spiraling for her. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 14, 2019 Share August 14, 2019 56 minutes ago, txhorns79 said: I'd disagree. She responds very well under pressure with the Heinz account. I tend to think she fell apart in LA because she lacked a real sounding board for her concerns, and things were just spiraling for her. I wasn't really thinking of that kind of pressure. I meant more a longterm thing. The Heinz dinner is exactly the kind of thing she's good at--this is the person who won Don's heart with that milkshake incident. But looking at the patterns of her life on the show it seems like a lot of things come easy to her, but she doesn't have much staying power when things aren't going well. To be fair, we don't see Megan in any situation she really needs to stick with so it's not like she's ever letting people down by giving up on anything that I can remember. But by the same token we can't point to anything that shows her doing that either. Where as I think we do see other characters doing that in varying degrees. 5 Link to comment
Umbelina August 14, 2019 Share August 14, 2019 1 hour ago, txhorns79 said: I'd disagree. She responds very well under pressure with the Heinz account. I tend to think she fell apart in LA because she lacked a real sounding board for her concerns, and things were just spiraling for her. I think it was a general lack of confidence. With Don, when he loved her? He gave her that boost of confidence she needed, if a man like Don loved her, she must be OK after all. We see this when, for example, she comes to Don for quick sex before her audition. Alone in Hollywood, without Don, and then finding out Don would not be joining her was pretty devastating. As I said, Hollywood can be pretty tough and the competition is fierce for rolls, perfection nearly demanded, especially back then, and for a woman. She was trying to make new friends, and doing that, joining the acting community and having them hang out, being a "normal" striving actress. Don swoops in occasionally bearing embarrassing gifts, although she certainly doesn't mind living in a prime Hollywood Hills house, with views... She both wants "the good life" and wants to fit in with other starving actors. In the end, she's not strong enough without Don, and in the very end, she decides she wants his money too. It seems very shallow and it is, but I think she's lost all confidence by then, though obviously still trying to become an actress. Not without the rich life she's become used to though. Would she have been happier poor if she had a man who truly loved her? Probably not, because I think her relationship with her father, and his relationship with her mother, was something she never got past. Don was her father, only actually successful. Maybe her mother was right after all, about her hard truths to Megan about ballerinas? 5 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 15, 2019 Share August 15, 2019 4 hours ago, Umbelina said: Would she have been happier poor if she had a man who truly loved her? Probably not, because I think her relationship with her father, and his relationship with her mother, was something she never got past. Don was her father, only actually successful. Maybe her mother was right after all, about her hard truths to Megan about ballerinas? I honestly think she was right on. Maybe not about everything, but everything about the way Megan was when it came to acting just always seemed to sum up what Marie was saying. She had an artistic soul but she wasn't an artist. She wasn't driven in the way she needed to be, she didn't really have something she wanted to say or do. She just wanted to be the beautiful ballerina people clapped for on stage. That sounds really shallow and dismissive but I don't really mean it to be. I think a lot of people think that's what wanting to be an actress is. In fact, I always remember an interview I read with Justin Theroux about Mulholland Drive and he said one of his favorite lines was when Diane says that she won a jitterbug contest and that "sort of led to acting...well, wanting to act." He thought that just summed up so many people. First because you have to unpack exactly how a jitterbug contest would lead to acting. But then more importantly it's the distinction between acting and wanting to act. Even someone who does have that inner direction can get screwed up, but I feel like when it came to acting Megan was just completely vulnerable to outside feedback. It wasn't so much that she wasn't willing to try hard, it was that what she did when she tried wasn't very efficient or healthy for her. 7 Link to comment
qtpye August 16, 2019 Share August 16, 2019 This video confirms what a lot of you are saying. 3 Link to comment
Umbelina August 16, 2019 Share August 16, 2019 (edited) 14 hours ago, qtpye said: This video confirms what a lot of you are saying. That was fun to watch! I bet they have others up for the characters, I may watch a few, at least Sally's. I was enjoying it, then they got to the entire Sharon Tate fake out, cop out of Weiner and I remember how completely annoyed I got with him in the final season. I mean she was practically living in the same damn canyon, and that guy that looked like Manson and his cohorts was AT her damn party. We know he hung out at most of that kind of party as well, those same groups. Weiner ignored other big history moments that I've forgotten near the end too, and those kinds of episodes were some of his best earlier. Instead, we have Don off on his own, and basically ignore the whole cast while he goes on walkabout and precious final screen time is taken up by strangers, including the damn waitress, Twilight's vampire mom in dowdy form. Argghhh 😉 ETA It also simply doesn't work. Manson murders were in August of '69, the coke ad came out in '71, so even with production and set up, (shorter back then) it's just annoying. Manson conversations dominated LA for years after those murders, and for Meagan, living in the same area? It's just bizarre that the show skipped any mention of them. I'm trying to remember the other things I'd been looking forward to the show touching on in it's personal way...there were so many opportunities for them. Oh! I remember one. Roger's kid practically living at Woodstock and absolutely no mention of anything like it on the show...just an aside or something that Sally (or Roger) had gone... Edited August 16, 2019 by Umbelina 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 16, 2019 Share August 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Umbelina said: Manson conversations dominated LA for years after those murders, and for Meagan, living in the same area? It's just bizarre that the show skipped any mention of them. I'm trying to remember the other things I'd been looking forward to the show touching on in it's personal way...there were so many opportunities for them. To be fair, the show didn't skip the Manson murders, the characters mentioned it just this way, as something everyone at the time was talking about. None of them had anything personally to do with any of it besides Megan living in a nearby canyon where lots of people looked like Manson, but it was affecting things in a practical way in California, according to a woman at that retreat. The only connection Megan had to Sharon Tate was wearing the same tee-shirt because MW wanted Megan to be wearing something political. I don't remember any mention of Woodstock at all--none of the characters went or had much reason to be anywhere near it (I mean, the actual concert--they lived relatively close to the actual place and I got the impression Margaret's commune wasn't too far) and it happened in between seasons so it made sense to me there was no mention of it. The only real foreshadowing of the Manson murders I thought was really there was when Megan first brought Megan to her house and assured him the coyote that sounded like it was right under the window was far away because the sound was weird out there. I thought that was an obvious intentional echo of the beginning of Helter Skelter. But I took that as a foreshadowing the same way Joan's bloody dress in GWIAAA was a foreshadowing of the Kennedy assassination--a creepily effective sign of doom, but not one that's specifically tied to the characters. I really liked that reference. 3 Link to comment
Domestic Assassin August 16, 2019 Share August 16, 2019 Ugh, why did you have to remind me? The only thing that annoyed me more than the idiotic "Megan is really Sharon Tate!" theory was when people complained that Peggy never visited her baby that her sister was raising for her. 2 Link to comment
Umbelina August 16, 2019 Share August 16, 2019 6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: To be fair, the show didn't skip the Manson murders, the characters mentioned it just this way, as something everyone at the time was talking about. None of them had anything personally to do with any of it besides Megan living in a nearby canyon where lots of people looked like Manson, but it was affecting things in a practical way in California, according to a woman at that retreat. The only connection Megan had to Sharon Tate was wearing the same tee-shirt because MW wanted Megan to be wearing something political. I don't remember any mention of Woodstock at all--none of the characters went or had much reason to be anywhere near it (I mean, the actual concert--they lived relatively close to the actual place and I got the impression Margaret's commune wasn't too far) and it happened in between seasons so it made sense to me there was no mention of it. The only real foreshadowing of the Manson murders I thought was really there was when Megan first brought Megan to her house and assured him the coyote that sounded like it was right under the window was far away because the sound was weird out there. I thought that was an obvious intentional echo of the beginning of Helter Skelter. But I took that as a foreshadowing the same way Joan's bloody dress in GWIAAA was a foreshadowing of the Kennedy assassination--a creepily effective sign of doom, but not one that's specifically tied to the characters. I really liked that reference. I honestly don't remember Megan or her friends mentioning it at all! *Manson* Help me out here! I moved to LA in 1972, and everywhere I went, that was the conversation, friendly poker game? Manson. Out for bagels at 2AM? Manson. Horseback riding in Griffith Park? How close we were to one of the Manson murders. Hike up to the Hollywood Sign? Pointing out the Manson murder canyon. Newspapers? Manson's trial. It shook up LA in a way it's hard to explain, sooner or later, nearly every conversation I was in, with a huge variety of people, led back to Manson. How close someone lived to one of the murders, that the murderers drove right past their house to get there. How they'd met this or that Clan member at this or that party, how they'd gone out to horseback ride at the ranch and seen them. It was just endless. Maybe because I was an outsider at the time it really struck me. After a few months living there I started playing a little game with myself, guessing how many minutes would pass before someone mentioned Manson, specifically their own close calls with Manson. In Megan's world, with that crowd, and her parties, there is no way they wouldn't be discussing that. Anyway. Yes, when Margaret moved practically to the exact spot Woodstock happened, and Roger visited and was doing acid all the time, and Sally was exactly the type to take off with her friends and go to Woodstock? I thought it was completely odd to leave out any mention of it in the show. Honestly, it felt like Weiner was being petulant to me. As if "everyone expects me to address two of the biggest events of this time, so I WON'T!" Some of the shows best moments were when they grounded it in the times. Vietnam, Civil Rights Protests, Kennedy Assassination, Moon Landing, Smoking Report, Beatles coming, etc. Now they weren't all big stories, for example, with the Beatles it was just Don surprising Sally with tickets...and basically a Harry/Don story for the most part. Still, including that kept "the times" alive, much like Betty and Don just throwing all their trash around after the picnic. They didn't have to make Manson or Woodstock some huge story, but then why do the #%^%!* set ups? Don't have Margaret practically living where Woodstock happens. Don't put Megan in the canyon house! Esalen was just about the only thing that grounded the later Mad Men stories in something close to the times, well that and the stupid Coke commercial. Anyway...ha, the show really petered out of me once it became Don's perverted sexual fantasies crap and left behind those moments in history that often made the show so memorable. It's not about huge stories either, they didn't all have to be Moon Landing or Assassination full arcs, but ignoring them? Boo. Oh I looked it up, the only mention of Manson was Don's ditsy secretary. That is a small nod, but not when Megan is practically living on top of the murder site and throwing parties Manson probably attended. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina August 16, 2019 Share August 16, 2019 (edited) Ha. I has a rant there. I really loved this show, and was sad when it all went to hell and became a chore with one or two good moments. I'll shorten it that above rant. If he didn't want to address Manson, have Megan in a beach house, something swimmer Don would have probably bought for "them" anyway. Very LA. Very cinematic. If he wanted to completely ignore Woodstock? Don't have Margaret move within a mile or so of the location. Instead, set her commune in Zion Maryland. The drive from NYC is about the same, it's farmland and woods, and it's no where near Woodstock. He did neither because he was playing games and "gotcha" with his audience. Truthfully though, Sally, Margaret, and/or Roger would probably still have gone, or at least been talking about it. On the show? It didn't even exist in passing conversation. All it would have taken is a small scene with Roger making one of his jokes about how cool it was, or Sally with a backpack heading out to go with her friends, or even a passing comment from Roger wryly quipping that Margaret was probably enjoying the music. Edited August 16, 2019 by Umbelina 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 16, 2019 Share August 16, 2019 53 minutes ago, Umbelina said: I honestly don't remember Megan or her friends mentioning it at all! *Manson* Help me out here! It didn't come up in any Megan scenes that I remember, but there was a mention of it in the last ep at the retreat place where Don was, where the woman said he wouldn't be able to hitchhike because nobody would do that thanks to Manson. And there's a scene where Harry is telling Meredith that he's going to California and she tells him to "watch out for those Manson brothers!" LOL. So I took it as just the show establishing that we were now 8 months or so after the murders and this was now a post-Manson world with all that that meant. Iirc, Megan's only in one or two eps post-Manson anyway. Maybe only New Business, when she's focused on her separation from Don and Harry's proposition. Megan's pretty over by the time we pick up months after the murders. 1 hour ago, Umbelina said: Yes, when Margaret moved practically to the exact spot Woodstock happened, and Roger visited and was doing acid all the time, and Sally was exactly the type to take off with her friends and go to Woodstock? Sally actually seems like she wouldn't want to take off with friends to go to Woodstock to me. I'd buy it if she did, but it didn't seem weird to me that she wouldn't. Seems like Roger would be bored out of his skull there. I do think Weiner probably did know he was confounding expectations avoiding something like Woodstock but since he's mostly writing about a crowd too old to be there, it seems like it would take more contortions to get most of the characters there than not. Link to comment
Umbelina August 16, 2019 Share August 16, 2019 (edited) 39 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Sally actually seems like she wouldn't want to take off with friends to go to Woodstock to me. I'd buy it if she did, but it didn't seem weird to me that she wouldn't. Seems like Roger would be bored out of his skull there. Nah, Roger would have been stoned out of his mind, loving it, and getting laid. Sally might have been bored once she got there, but I doubt it. She would have gone anyway, she was with the 'cool crowd.' Not a chance Margaret wouldn't be there, they probably camped all around that house. As I said, want to ignore it? Fine. BAD decision but OK. Plot Margaret down there, and have Roger visit? No longer fine. Cock tease. 39 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: So I took it as just the show establishing that we were now 8 months or so after the murders and this was now a post-Manson world with all that that meant. Iirc, Megan's only in one or two eps post-Manson anyway. Maybe only New Business, when she's focused on her separation from Don and Harry's proposition. Megan's pretty over by the time we pick up months after the murders. Again, Don loved the beach. He would never have bought a place for Megan in the hills when he could live at the beach...when that was all happening, he was still planning on going with her. Megan moved to LA just before the murders, but during the time Manson and his girls were constantly hanging out with Hollywood types, specifically in the hills, as well as either crashing those parties (free food, booze, drugs) or being invited to them. She's still in that house well after the murders. Weiner had Megan throw parties, and live in that location for a reason. He's lying, it was another cock tease. Again I lived there after all of that, and no matter where I went, someone was talking about the murders or the trials. Go to dinner in the best Mexican restaurant I've ever been lucky enough to eat at, the next table would be talking about them. With my little "time game" I think the longest I ever went without hearing about Manson was 10 minutes. Usually it was under 5. I'm also addicted to DVD commentary, and in the other seasons the Mad Men variety of commentators was excellent and interesting. I think it was the second to last season when there were no DVD commentaries. The final season, it was ALL Matt Weiner. He was beyond annoying and full of himself during those, something I hadn't noticed in earlier group commentaries. He chose those settings. Period. WHY? Cock teasing and messing with his audience because he could. IMO of course. ETA Megan moved there in early 1969, the murders were in August of 1969, no one knew who did it for months, and everyone was terrified, especially those living in those canyons. I'm pretty sure the arrests began in December of that year. So the idea of her still just hanging out in the canyon and not being terrified or wanting to move, or Don suggesting she move is just bizarre to me. Not mentioning it at all? Ridiculous. Edited August 16, 2019 by Umbelina Link to comment
txhorns79 August 17, 2019 Share August 17, 2019 4 hours ago, Umbelina said: Megan moved there in early 1969, the murders were in August of 1969, no one knew who did it for months, and everyone was terrified, especially those living in those canyons. I'm pretty sure the arrests began in December of that year. So the idea of her still just hanging out in the canyon and not being terrified or wanting to move, or Don suggesting she move is just bizarre to me. Not mentioning it at all? Ridiculous. I don't know. The first half of Season 7 ended in July 1969, and then the second half of Season 7 began in April 1970. Don and Megan separated in July 1969, and Megan showed up for one episode in the second half to end things with Don permanently. To me, the Manson stuff is like how people speculated that Joan would somehow have some kind of involvement in Stonewall, as her apartment was not too far where it occurred. It was interesting to speculate, but I didn't really need to see them hitting every big '60s event. 4 Link to comment
Umbelina August 17, 2019 Share August 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, txhorns79 said: I don't know. The first half of Season 7 ended in July 1969, and then the second half of Season 7 began in April 1970. Don and Megan separated in July 1969, and Megan showed up for one episode in the second half to end things with Don permanently. To me, the Manson stuff is like how people speculated that Joan would somehow have some kind of involvement in Stonewall, as her apartment was not too far where it occurred. It was interesting to speculate, but I didn't really need to see them hitting every big '60s event. I get what you are saying, and I am not suggesting they had to make either thing a "big event" even though using those type of things was very common in the earlier seasons, and resonated, even if they were handled in "small" ways. LA is huge. Why move her to a canyon, and then the whole scene about the coyote noise, and then have her give a party with a Manson lookalike carrying a guitar? Don was a beach guy, that's the kind of house he would have purchased for them. Ditto with Margaret. Why plop her down dead center in Woodstock, with 2 other characters that would have been interested, Sally and Roger, and then not even mention it? One joke from Roger about Margaret's "peaceful, isolated farm house would have done it, or Sally arranging with friends to go, or telling her friends no, she preferred bathrooms? These were both major events, and Weiner had characters RIGHT THERE, and then ignored them. That, combined with his attitude throughout the final season DVDs just struck me as a petulant stubbornness. Also, I was bored with Don's story in the final season, completely bored until the final episode really. 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 17, 2019 Share August 17, 2019 7 hours ago, Umbelina said: As I said, want to ignore it? Fine. BAD decision but OK. Plot Margaret down there, and have Roger visit? No longer fine. Cock tease. But I don't get why it's a tease since it's an episode that takes place when the concert isn't happening in a place that's just in the general area and ends with Roger saying good-bye to his daughter he barely spent time with outside of that episode, so why would her being there draw him to Woodstock? He can get stoned and laid in his hotel room. 8 hours ago, Umbelina said: Again, Don loved the beach. He would never have bought a place for Megan in the hills when he could live at the beach...when that was all happening, he was still planning on going with her. Wasn't that part of the point, that the house had nothing to do with Don? Megan chose the place where she wanted to live and there was no place for Don there. I feel like Don might have even had a line to that effect (beach vs. canyons), but I can't remember where or when or what it was so I might be making it up. But still, I think they can put Megan the actress in the canyons and intentionally bring to mind the future Manson murders without having Megan actually run into any of them as part of a story or having Megan's reactions be a focus. 2 hours ago, txhorns79 said: I don't know. The first half of Season 7 ended in July 1969, and then the second half of Season 7 began in April 1970. Don and Megan separated in July 1969, and Megan showed up for one episode in the second half to end things with Don permanently. To me, the Manson stuff is like how people speculated that Joan would somehow have some kind of involvement in Stonewall, as her apartment was not too far where it occurred. It was interesting to speculate, but I didn't really need to see them hitting every big '60s event. Right, Megan's only in the one episode months post-murders and she's getting officially divorced in it. In fact, with these locations specifically it seems more like the point was the opposite. The fact that a NYC-based cult group might naturally settle in the Woodstock area is a handy way to invoke Woodstock to underline the generational conflict in that episode that ends with Roger flailing around in the mud. Likewise Megan moving to a house in a canyon is a better symbolic fit with what the move means for their marriage. It's specifically not Don's idyllic California beach. In fact, it's the part associated with brutal endings. 2 hours ago, Umbelina said: Ditto with Margaret. Why plop her down dead center in Woodstock, with 2 other characters that would have been interested, Sally and Roger, and then not even mention it? One joke from Roger about Margaret's "peaceful, isolated farm house would have done it, or Sally arranging with friends to go, or telling her friends no, she preferred bathrooms? But why change the whole timeline structure that ends with the moon landing just to have a reference to Woodstock because the audience knows about it? A lot of the obvious themes to use these events for were already used in earlier episodes like Mystery Date, Tea Leaves and The Monolith. 5 Link to comment
Roseanna August 17, 2019 Share August 17, 2019 On 8/14/2019 at 10:50 PM, txhorns79 said: She responds very well under pressure with the Heinz account. While others have already commented that, I woud add that Megan was under no pressure with the Heinz account, unlike Peggy and Don. Megan was just working under Peggy and doing things that weren't even of third importance and even if she had failed, her job was secure as the boss's wife. It's evident that people working in the ad business felt that their value as human beings is connected with their success in work and if they lost their job, like Sal, Duck and Lane, they had very hard time. On the other hand, Don and Peggy had grave problems in their personal life but succeeded professionally. However, every time Megan sought for a new role, it wasn't only her performance that was estimated but (as she evidently felt) her value as a woman and human being. It would have demanded self-worth and self-confidence of her to differ those two things and say to herself: it's only a role, I want it and get my best to get it but I am OK whether I get or not. Or perhaps it was just the contrary. Tolstoy said about his brother that he had all talents, but not weaknesses, demanded to become an author. 5 Link to comment
txhorns79 August 17, 2019 Share August 17, 2019 Quote It's evident that people working in the ad business felt that their value as human beings is connected with their success in work and if they lost their job, like Sal, Duck and Lane, they had very hard time. Honestly, I don't think think Sal, Duck or Lane had a hard time because of their various job losses, so much as they had a hard time because of the underlying personal problems they had. Though I guess, in fairness, we have no idea how Sal ended up making out as we never saw the character again after the episode where he was fired. 3 Link to comment
Umbelina August 17, 2019 Share August 17, 2019 I hear what you guys are saying, and I will drop it. 😉 I'll drop it because I'm annoyed and probably annoying, not because I have changed my mind though. So one last statement without hopefully repeating myself too much. I think Weiner did both things deliberately, both Megan and Margaret's location. I think he knew what would happen, that people were waiting for two of the biggest events of that time, events still talked about TODAY, to at least get a mention in the show. I think he thought he was being very clever, and also that he went on some kind of strange power trip in the final twos seasons, especially the final season. That power trip included a "I AM IN CHARGE!" vibe which was unpleasant, and showed in both the story and DVD commentaries. He bought into his own hype, was working out his own sexual issues on both the show and the audience. PART of that was a "fuck you." I'll also add that yes, I think including them, rather than having Don get rolled by strangers while working on cars, or running around looking for the waitress, sitting around for an entire episode with strangers at a run down motel, etc. Would have been a much more interesting season. They didn't have to be full blown stories, but by his choice to deliberately not even mention them in passing, while putting a Manson look alike at Megan's party and having the whole 'sounds carry in the hills' thing? Was him giving the finger to his audience, because he could, and it made him feel powerful. Maybe that's why he sexually harassed Kater as well. For me, I knew the show was teetering when Don was being repeatedly slapped by that prostitute on whatever holiday it was. We were going into a dark side of Weiner from that moment on, and honestly, it never really fully recovered for me. It did have a few great moments with other cast stories though, for which I'm grateful. 2 Link to comment
Roseanna August 21, 2019 Share August 21, 2019 On 8/17/2019 at 9:47 PM, Umbelina said: I hear what you guys are saying, and I will drop it. 😉 I'll drop it because I'm annoyed and probably annoying, not because I have changed my mind though. So one last statement without hopefully repeating myself too much. I think Weiner did both things deliberately, both Megan and Margaret's location. I think he knew what would happen, that people were waiting for two of the biggest events of that time, events still talked about TODAY, to at least get a mention in the show. I think he thought he was being very clever, and also that he went on some kind of strange power trip in the final twos seasons, especially the final season. That power trip included a "I AM IN CHARGE!" vibe which was unpleasant, and showed in both the story and DVD commentaries. He bought into his own hype, was working out his own sexual issues on both the show and the audience. PART of that was a "fuck you." I'll also add that yes, I think including them, rather than having Don get rolled by strangers while working on cars, or running around looking for the waitress, sitting around for an entire episode with strangers at a run down motel, etc. Would have been a much more interesting season. They didn't have to be full blown stories, but by his choice to deliberately not even mention them in passing, while putting a Manson look alike at Megan's party and having the whole 'sounds carry in the hills' thing? Was him giving the finger to his audience, because he could, and it made him feel powerful. Maybe that's why he sexually harassed Kater as well. For me, I knew the show was teetering when Don was being repeatedly slapped by that prostitute on whatever holiday it was. We were going into a dark side of Weiner from that moment on, and honestly, it never really fully recovered for me. It did have a few great moments with other cast stories though, for which I'm grateful. @Umbelina, you seems never annoying to me, however much we disagree. On the contrary, your views are always interesting. In this case, although the performance of the last episodes wasn't wholly good, the idea was. Besides that Don had to go to his knees, the "ordinary" characters were the necessary contrast to the ad world that was planning how to make "the ordinary man" to change his beer brand and experiences of vets put those of Don in perspective. I don't think that Manson was needed in the plot. I remember many famous homicide cases that I have followed with interest, but they haven't influenced on my life in any way. Don had enough darkness inside him but it wasn't his deseration but rather the belief, characteristic of America and since the 60ies the whole world, that one make himself a new person and leave the past behind him. 2 Link to comment
Umbelina August 21, 2019 Share August 21, 2019 12 hours ago, Roseanna said: @Umbelina, you seems never annoying to me, however much we disagree. On the contrary, your views are always interesting. In this case, although the performance of the last episodes wasn't wholly good, the idea was. Besides that Don had to go to his knees, the "ordinary" characters were the necessary contrast to the ad world that was planning how to make "the ordinary man" to change his beer brand and experiences of vets put those of Don in perspective. I don't think that Manson was needed in the plot. I remember many famous homicide cases that I have followed with interest, but they haven't influenced on my life in any way. Don had enough darkness inside him but it wasn't his deseration but rather the belief, characteristic of America and since the 60ies the whole world, that one make himself a new person and leave the past behind him. I feel the same way about you @Roseanna❤️ I don't think the whole Manson thing needed to be a storyline or plot. It did get a mention from Anna's niece though about hitchhiking which was "enough," or would have been if something like that had just come from Megan. I don't feel like going back to figure out timelines, but for example, if when Megan was back packing up her stuff from their apartment she'd just said to her mother or sister that she found a new place in LA, that it was just too creepy to stay in the canyon after everything that happened. Or in one of those phone calls to/from Don. Or even when the murders had happened and no one had a clue who did them, if Don had suggested to Megan that she get a new place. As far as the show being filled with strangers for nearly all of the final season? Of course I "get" that Weiner was taking Don on a journey right back to himself. What pissed me off is that Don is not the only person I cared about on this show, and it was our last time see them all, and instead I was watching characters I didn't give one shit about filling up the precious final airtime, the last chance we would have to see those characters! The endings for the rest of the cast were all fairly pleasing, but we got snippets of them and I wanted much more than snippets, I wanted time spent with them, and frankly, with them interacting with Don as well. 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 21, 2019 Share August 21, 2019 52 minutes ago, Umbelina said: I feel the same way about you @Roseanna❤️ Me too for both of you!! 52 minutes ago, Umbelina said: I don't think the whole Manson thing needed to be a storyline or plot. It did get a mention from Anna's niece though about hitchhiking which was "enough," or would have been if something like that had just come from Megan. I don't feel like going back to figure out timelines, but for example, if when Megan was back packing up her stuff from their apartment she'd just said to her mother or sister that she found a new place in LA, that it was just too creepy to stay in the canyon after everything that happened. It would have been nice if they'd been able to put in something like that because Megan was such a sunny character--this is the person who got upset when people "smirked" instead of smiled and was sensitive to how her ill-conceived birthday party turned out. I can definitely imagine her feeling personally attacked by the murders as well, ruiing everything. 52 minutes ago, Umbelina said: As far as the show being filled with strangers for nearly all of the final season? Of course I "get" that Weiner was taking Don on a journey right back to himself. What pissed me off is that Don is not the only person I cared about on this show, and it was our last time see them all, and instead I was watching characters I didn't give one shit about filling up the precious final airtime, the last chance we would have to see those characters! That was the thing that was so frustrating about Don's final roadtrip. I remember especially feeling that way in The Milk and Honey Route. I was so into the Betty and Pete stories and then we'd have to switch to Don and these randos in middle America and their false accusations and the kid who stole the money etc. And every minute of it I was thinking this was time we could be spending back on the East Coast while time was ticking away. 5 Link to comment
Roseanna August 22, 2019 Share August 22, 2019 11 hours ago, Umbelina said: As far as the show being filled with strangers for nearly all of the final season? Of course I "get" that Weiner was taking Don on a journey right back to himself. What pissed me off is that Don is not the only person I cared about on this show, and it was our last time see them all, and instead I was watching characters I didn't give one shit about filling up the precious final airtime, the last chance we would have to see those characters! The endings for the rest of the cast were all fairly pleasing, but we got snippets of them and I wanted much more than snippets, I wanted time spent with them, and frankly, with them interacting with Don as well. 10 hours ago, sistermagpie said: That was the thing that was so frustrating about Don's final roadtrip. I remember especially feeling that way in The Milk and Honey Route. I was so into the Betty and Pete stories and then we'd have to switch to Don and these randos in middle America and their false accusations and the kid who stole the money etc. And every minute of it I was thinking this was time we could be spending back on the East Coast while time was ticking away. I fully agree. Although some scnenes were good, Don's journey simply took too much time. Actually, I would say the same of some earlier subplots, especially concerning some of Don's mistresses. 4 Link to comment
Old Man Neil August 24, 2019 Share August 24, 2019 On 8/6/2014 at 5:54 PM, Inquisitionist said: I read Revolutionary Road last year. Outstanding. After finally reading it, I agree, and The Easter Parade may be even better. Both are utterly depressing. Megan and April Wheeler wanted to be actresses. We found out right away that April was untalented. Come to think of it, so did she. If Megan had overacted in a community theatre production of The Petrified Forest, she would have blamed the director, the audience, or the other cast members. April Wheeler became tragically aware of her limitations. Megan, not so much. The character of Elaine on Seinfeld was loosely based on Monica Yates, the daughter of Richard Yates and a one-time girlfriend of Larry David. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jacket_(Seinfeld) 3 Link to comment
txhorns79 August 25, 2019 Share August 25, 2019 On 8/24/2019 at 4:23 AM, Old Man Neil said: Megan and April Wheeler wanted to be actresses. We found out right away that April was untalented. Come to think of it, so did she. If Megan had overacted in a community theatre production of The Petrified Forest, she would have blamed the director, the audience, or the other cast members. April Wheeler became tragically aware of her limitations. Megan, not so much. I might be remembering wrong, but I thought the only time Megan really blamed anyone for her struggles with acting was in her last appearance when she said Don ruined her life. I don't really remember her blaming other people during the fifth season when she wasn't booking anything, or during most of the seventh season. I always thought her problem was that she was going out for parts beyond her reach, i.e. she was going out for leads when she should have been going for smaller, supporting roles. That was just my theory. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 25, 2019 Share August 25, 2019 6 hours ago, txhorns79 said: I might be remembering wrong, but I thought the only time Megan really blamed anyone for her struggles with acting was in her last appearance when she said Don ruined her life. I don't really remember her blaming other people during the fifth season when she wasn't booking anything, or during most of the seventh season. I always thought her problem was that she was going out for parts beyond her reach, i.e. she was going out for leads when she should have been going for smaller, supporting roles. That was just my theory. It seemed like she was pretty quick to fall into despair about herself, imo, rather than blame others. Yes, she was resentful when Don didn't want to get her the Butler shoe ad and I think laid a guilt trip on him as if he, too, thought all she was good for was sex. But for the most part she seemed to more just feel disappointed that she didn't get whatever part she was going for. Like I think I said, I think on the soap she didn't seem to be that great at taking or understanding direction--she seemed kind of frustrated with the director's notes about her twins both wanting the same things but going after them in different ways--but I didn't get the impression she was blaming him for anything about her performance. More like just thinking he wasn't helpful and she didn't get what she wanted/what she was doing wrong. 2 Link to comment
Old Man Neil August 25, 2019 Share August 25, 2019 7 hours ago, txhorns79 said: I might be remembering wrong, but I thought the only time Megan really blamed anyone for her struggles with acting was in her last appearance when she said Don ruined her life. That's close to an all-encompassing example of blaming others. 7 hours ago, txhorns79 said: I always thought her problem was that she was going out for parts beyond her reach, i.e. she was going out for leads when she should have been going for smaller, supporting roles. I agree. But it goes to the point that Megan didn't see her failures as a matter of her own limitations as an actress, but blamed circumstances unrelated to her lack of talent. Aside from my debatable hypothetical, what are some of the other ways in which Megan and April Wheeler can be compared and contrasted? 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 26, 2019 Share August 26, 2019 (edited) 17 hours ago, Old Man Neil said: That's close to an all-encompassing example of blaming others. TBF, that was also a specific situation she was describing that wasn't completely off-base. She was saying that in general her marriage to Don was a waste of years of her life and that his impulsive desire to move to California was the reason she was no longer on the soap and so not successful. Which at least as a foothold in reality, if still unfair to Don. But I do still see you're point--it's not that Megan blames others in a micro-sense. Like if she typed something wrong at work she wouldn't start ranting about having a faulty typewriter. But in a general sense yes, I think you're right, she does have a tendency to blame outside forces rather than ever look at what she's doing. For instance, when she threw that ill-conceived birthday party and then basically accused everybody in the office of sucking because they didn't have the kind of experience she wanted them to have, one that would have resulted in everyone thinking Megan was awesome. Even Don "ruined things" by not having the reaction she wanted. What she didn't do was listen to the very clear warnings and explanations of how what she wanted was never going to happen. She decided to throw a party despite Don flat-out telling her he didn't want one and didn't like them, despite Don not having personal friends to invite, despite the common sense any adult in the situation would have had about what it means to order everyone at work to come to a birthday party the boss's wife is throwing together in a few hours. All Megan seemed to learn from that situation was not to trust people in the office to support her the way they should have. And she does somewhat do that with acting too, I think. She's not getting the reaction she wants and the career she wants, but there's no sense that she's really taking in practical advice about her actual acting to improve it, or realistically assessing her talents. In a way it's easier for her to just declare herself a complete failure because that avoids taking control of improving weak spots etc. That also makes me think of her reaction to the TV set Don gives her in California. She's mad at him for potentially making her look bad in front of the friends she's trying to slum it with as if it's Don's fault she's a phony. Meanwhile, she has no such issues with her designer wardrobe. Her dad was right about her "skipping to the end" and feeling bad about it, but she still takes the wrong lesson from it because she never gets to that place where she's ready to really test herself and accept her limits and earn her successes. Just as an aside, I don't think she had a problem with going for the wrong parts. She gets a call-back to the Broadway part (which seemed pretty small) and also the thing in LA for NBC which I can't remember the name of, but iirc was a show where she would have been one of several pretty young girls not doing anything too demanding. The soap part seemed appropriate (but also seemed too demanding technically for her, frankly). I think a lot of the issue was more just that she's just another pretty actress with nothing really making her stand out except in cases like the soap where the person casting happens to really go for her. She's not special and that makes her feel rejected and unfairly treated instead of focusing on what she can do to stand out. Edited August 26, 2019 by sistermagpie 7 Link to comment
txhorns79 August 26, 2019 Share August 26, 2019 5 hours ago, sistermagpie said: That also makes me think of her reaction to the TV set Don gives her in California. She's mad at him for potentially making her look bad in front of the friends she's trying to slum it with as if it's Don's fault she's a phony. Meanwhile, she has no such issues with her designer wardrobe. I think she does offer that as a reason, but I also saw her really being angry because Don is kind of invading her space, marking his territory and giving her that giant tv console she didn't actually want. It was more a sign of their failing marriage (i.e. he's ignoring her needs to do what he wants), than her actually being upset over what her friends would think. 5 hours ago, sistermagpie said: NBC which I can't remember the name of, but iirc was a show where she would have been one of several pretty young girls not doing anything too demanding. Bracken's World! It ran two seasons. You can watch it on YouTube. It's not a great show. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 26, 2019 Share August 26, 2019 8 minutes ago, txhorns79 said: I think she does offer that as a reason, but I also saw her really being angry because Don is kind of invading her space, marking his territory and giving her that giant tv console she didn't actually want. It was more a sign of their failing marriage (i.e. he's ignoring her needs to do what he wants), than her actually being upset over what her friends would think. Oh yeah, that too. I don't want it to reduce it to just that--I was just thinking of that part of her argument, that she's angry at Don making her look like some rich girl as if she isn't one. But the much bigger issue, I agree, was that Don didn't consult her before plopping this giant thing down in her living room. And of course, beyond that there's the implication that she obviously sees this as her living space that has little--or no--space for stuff that's there for Don. She's not considering his needs either when it comes to the house. She wants him and everything he stands for to be largely invisible. 15 minutes ago, txhorns79 said: Bracken's World! It ran two seasons. You can watch it on YouTube. It's not a great show. That's it! I knew there was some possessive name in it! 2 Link to comment
qtpye August 26, 2019 Share August 26, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, sistermagpie said: TBF, that was also a specific situation she was describing that wasn't completely off-base. She was saying that in general her marriage to Don was a waste of years of her life and that his impulsive desire to move to California was the reason she was no longer on the soap and so not successful. Which at least as a foothold in reality, if still unfair to Don. But I do still see you're point--it's not that Megan blames others in a micro-sense. Like if she typed something wrong at work she wouldn't start ranting about having a faulty typewriter. But in a general sense yes, I think you're right, she does have a tendency to blame outside forces rather than ever look at what she's doing. For instance, when she threw that ill-conceived birthday party and then basically accused everybody in the office of sucking because they didn't have the kind of experience she wanted them to have, one that would have resulted in everyone thinking Megan was awesome. Even Don "ruined things" by not having the reaction she wanted. What she didn't do was listen to the very clear warnings and explanations of how what she wanted was never going to happen. She decided to throw a party despite Don flat-out telling her he didn't want one and didn't like them, despite Don not having personal friends to invite, despite the common sense any adult in the situation would have had about what it means to order everyone at work to come to a birthday party the boss's wife is throwing together in a few hours. All Megan seemed to learn from that situation was not to trust people in the office to support her the way they should have. And she does somewhat do that with acting too, I think. She's not getting the reaction she wants and the career she wants, but there's no sense that she's really taking in practical advice about her actual acting to improve it, or realistically assessing her talents. In a way it's easier for her to just declare herself a complete failure because that avoids taking control of improving weak spots etc. That also makes me think of her reaction to the TV set Don gives her in California. She's mad at him for potentially making her look bad in front of the friends she's trying to slum it with as if it's Don's fault she's a phony. Meanwhile, she has no such issues with her designer wardrobe. Her dad was right about her "skipping to the end" and feeling bad about it, but she still takes the wrong lesson from it because she never gets to that place where she's ready to really test herself and accept her limits and earn her successes. Just as an aside, I don't think she had a problem with going for the wrong parts. She gets a call-back to the Broadway part (which seemed pretty small) and also the thing in LA for NBC which I can't remember the name of, but iirc was a show where she would have been one of several pretty young girls not doing anything too demanding. The soap part seemed appropriate (but also seemed too demanding technically for her, frankly). I think a lot of the issue was more just that she's just another pretty actress with nothing really making her stand out except in cases like the soap where the person casting happens to really go for her. She's not special and that makes her feel rejected and unfairly treated instead of focusing on what she can do to stand out. The birthday party is in one of those episodes that has so much meaning in hindsight. Don married Megan because he thought her to be selfless and supportive. She was supposed to be the perfect woman. She had Peggy’s love of advertising, Anna Draper’s nurturing spirit, and as beautiful as Betty but exotically dark and French, instead of a beautiful aristocratic American blonde. The birthday party is totally selfish and petty. The pretense is that it supposed to be in honor of Don is so thin that everyone can see through it. No, the party is to celebrate that Megan, the secretary and failed actress, bagged the rich, handsome, and ultra successful Don Draper. The man that every woman wants. Lowly Megan now has the office at her beck and call. She also is the center of attention of her Bohemian actor friends because now she has some wealth and status. It is not something one expects from someone who on the surface seems so sunny and bright. I still cringe when she proudly tells Peggy that everyone has sex after her parties. Megan is beautiful but authentic sexiness does not come naturally to her. In fact, most of Don’s other mistresses were actually a lot sexier. Also, Don does not like his wives to be sexual since he has a giant virgin and whore complex. This is made all too clear when her song and dance is considered an embarrassment rather than a moment of triumph. I also like to point out how Lane and his wife are the VIPs of the party. I think it is because as expats they are a little lonely and out of place...they are actually happy to be included with the Yanks even if it is forced. I think it is when Megan realizes that her party is a total failure that she gets an inkling that being Mrs. Don Draper is not all its cracked up to be. Edited August 27, 2019 by qtpye 8 Link to comment
Umbelina August 27, 2019 Share August 27, 2019 On 8/26/2019 at 8:26 AM, sistermagpie said: For instance, when she threw that ill-conceived birthday party and then basically accused everybody in the office of sucking because they didn't have the kind of experience she wanted them to have, one that would have resulted in everyone thinking Megan was awesome. Even Don "ruined things" by not having the reaction she wanted. What she didn't do was listen to the very clear warnings and explanations of how what she wanted was never going to happen. She decided to throw a party despite Don flat-out telling her he didn't want one and didn't like them, despite Don not having personal friends to invite, despite the common sense any adult in the situation would have had about what it means to order everyone at work to come to a birthday party the boss's wife is throwing together in a few hours. All Megan seemed to learn from that situation was not to trust people in the office to support her the way they should have. Interesting. 19 hours ago, qtpye said: The birthday party is in one of those episodes that has so much meaning in hindsight. Don married Megan because he thought her to be selfless and supportive. She was supposed to be the perfect woman. She had Peggy’s love of advertising, Anna Draper’s nurturing spirit, and as beautiful as Betty but exotically dark and French, instead of a beautiful aristocratic American blonde. The birthday party is totally selfish and petty. The pretense is that it supposed to be in honor of Don is so thin that everyone can see through it. No, the party is to celebrate that Megan, the secretary and failed actress, bagged the rich, handsome, and ultra successful Don Draper. The man that every woman wants. Lowly Megan now has the office at her beck and call. She also is the center of attention of her Bohemian actor friends because now she has some wealth and status. It is not something one expects from someone who on the surface seems so sunny and bright. I still cringe when she proudly tells Peggy that everyone has sex after her parties. Megan is beautiful but authentic sexiness does not come naturally to her. In fact, most of Don’s other mistresses were actually a lot sexier. Also, Don does not like his wives to be sexual since he has a giant virgin and whore complex. This is made all too clear when her song and dance is considered an embarrassment rather than a moment of triumph. I also like to point out how Lane and his wife are the VIPs of the party. I think it is because as expats they are a little lonely and out of place...they are actually happy to be included with the Yanks even if it is forced. I think it is when Megan realizes that her party is a total failure that she gets an inkling that being Mrs. Don Draper is not all its cracked up to be. Also interesting. I saw it a bit differently from both of you, but I know the episode made me cringe, embarrassed for both Don and Megan, not to mention that bullshit "clean up naked/fight/sex scene" later which again, made me feel I was peeking into more of Weiner's disturbing sexual fantasies. I think Megan was genuinely surprised that Don didn't have any "personal friends." Having to invite office people was more of a default substitute not her original idea, I mean sure, she would have invited Peggy and a few others probably, maybe even have to invite everyone to avoid insulting anyone at the office even. My point is, I don't think she saw the party as an office party, let alone as a show off for the office party. She was a new and very happy bride, and it was her husband's birthday, a perfect chance for their separate friends to meet each other and have fun, and celebrate Don, see their new place, and for her to give a party. I think she enjoys getting people together, and in her mind this was a NORMAL thing to do, have fun and get to know one other's friends. Perfect timing! Only Don had no friends outside of work, and even they were not really his friends. Frankly, that's on Don, and Megan's biggest mistakes were being unwilling to cancel the party after she realized Don had no friends and heard Peggy's warning. In her defense though, arrangements/band/food/drinks/invitations to her friends were probably already in the works. So, she makes do with just office people from Don, and her wider circle of friends. This was her surprise for "the man who has everything" or could easily buy anything he did want. Don's not exactly easy to buy for so she'd decided on the party/song. I didn't see it as an evil plan or as showing off. Weddings are usually the place where their mutual friends and family would meet each other, but Don's impulsive elopement nixed that. So the party could also accomplish that (in Megan's mind) a fun place to "blend the two groups." Honestly, a bit like a reception would have done after a wedding. I don't blame Megan for not knowing that Don would hate it all. She didn't really know him yet, and again, I think she initially thought by having a party to get to know his friends that would help. I also don't blame Megan for Harry's lewd comments and sexual fantasies. That's where the age thing really showed frankly. Her song, while sexy? For a woman her age, with friends her own age (putting myself at that party as a contemporary/friend of Megan?) Was fun, was sexy, and wouldn't have embarrassed me at all had a friend of mine at that age done the same. The problem was entirely on "Don's side" of the party, and for understandable reasons aside from age. Peggy or Pete for example would have probably thought it fun, except, oh yeah, their coworkers/bosses were there and it was being sung to DON, their boss! Hell, if Don had been at a party when that song wasn't being sung to HIM, and his coworkers weren't there, he probably would have been enjoying the party too. Anyway, I think what I'm trying to say is that Megan was young, she was in love, she enjoyed parties, and she went into this plan not realizing Don didn't have any personal friends. I think her heart was in the right place, it wasn't to show off, and it certainly wasn't done to make Don unhappy. I don't really blame Don either, he is who he is, and marrying someone young/happy/carefree didn't make him those things even if he pretended they did for a while. -- Also? I think there were three things that made Don decided to marry Megan. Sally running and falling and Megan being the one to comfort her. The Maria Von Trapp sing along in the hotel room. The spilled milk shake, which would have been hell had Betty been there, but was no big deal/happy with Megan. Sex? Sure, Don likes sex, and sex with Megan was probably good. Don can find good sex anytime though. He married her because the kids liked her and it avoided the whole nanny hassle. Sure, he loved that she made him feel young, and that she loved advertising, and that she was able to have "no strings" sex. The real reason that ring came out though? His kids. She was his solution to many things, since she worked where he worked and was with him 24-7 his natural need to stray was curtailed, and she made him feel young, and she was also a substitute mom. SCORE! Of course, as soon as she began being more than all-Don all the time? Things began to fall apart. It wasn't just the acting, it was also him "owning" her at work, pulling her away from an important campaign in front of her coworkers for a road trip, throwing a fit when she didn't like the ice cream he liked, and of course, that party, when they both realized they weren't really "one" after all. ETA I a weird way it reminds me of Betty's dad. "HE HAS NO PEOPLE!" Dang, let's do Sally. All this talk about Megan...ha. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 27, 2019 Share August 27, 2019 10 minutes ago, Umbelina said: I saw it a bit differently from both of you, but I know the episode made me cringe, embarrassed for both Don and Megan, not to mention that bullshit "clean up naked/fight/sex scene" later which again, made me feel I was peeking into more of Weiner's disturbing sexual fantasies. Oh man, I almost forgot that part. Yipes. 10 minutes ago, Umbelina said: I think Megan was genuinely surprised that Don didn't have any "personal friends." Having to invite office people was more of a default substitute not her original idea, I mean sure, she would have invited Peggy and a few others probably, maybe even have to invite everyone to avoid insulting anyone at the office even. My point is, I don't think she saw the party as an office party, let alone as a show off for the office party. Oh, I don't think she did either. That's part of what I meant, that once she realized that she didn't have any friends of Don's to invite that should have been another thing to make her re-think what she was doing. Instead she just filled in with office party and then was surprised when it turned out she threw an office party. Like she just thought everybody would become the crowd she wanted even though she'd been working in that office for a while. 12 minutes ago, Umbelina said: I didn't see it as an evil plan or as showing off. I didn't think it was evil either, just a giant red flag about the way she was seeing things. Don had literally told her he didn't like birthday parties and she just decided, as you said, that this was normal so of course it would work out the she imagined it. Megan didn't have experience with somebody like Don and didn't even yet understand Don yet. But she had more warnings signs than anyone else at the party who were just dragged into it and she wound up the person who was angry about how it turned out. Other people found it amusing. I do think she got into the idea of getting an audience to sing for because you just can't put on a show like that without wanting the positive feedback, especially if you're a frustrated actress. But I think she also saw it as a genuine birthday present for Don--and that's not a crazy idea. It's easy to see how this *could* have worked with the right crowd and the right husband. But these people hadn't done anything wrong by not being that crowd. She had a lot of warning signs and plowed ahead, apparently unable to imagine that people wouldn't react to it the way she would. 17 minutes ago, Umbelina said: Sex? Sure, Don likes sex, and sex with Megan was probably good. Don can find good sex anytime though. He married her because the kids liked her and it avoided the whole nanny hassle. Sure, he loved that she made him feel young, and that she loved advertising, and that she was able to have "no strings" sex. The real reason that ring came out though? His kids. And I feel like him seeing her as such a great nanny makes him feel like he'll be a better father. It reminds me a bit of Suzanne. He loves how much she loves kids, but that's partly because she's nurturing to the kid Don sometimes feels like (Sally has a crush on her first, just as Sally will later resentfully say that Megan was her friend first). He doesn't always look for that in women, obviously, but it was clear from space that Megan's position was sealed when that milkshake spilled. 1 3 Link to comment
Umbelina August 27, 2019 Share August 27, 2019 (edited) I think just "cancelling the party" while obviously, the "right" thing to do (because we know Don) wasn't that easy, and I do think it Megan's mind, doing that would be silly. She'd obviously already invited a bunch of people, arranged for food, the band, the present of "the song" because again, what do you get the man that has everything? I just "get it." Without the party, how does she give the only gift she could come up with? Don was playing a roll with Megan, the young, carefree, cool guy who adored her and his children and his job. Megan bought that, she was young, she had little to no experience with the dark and twisted side of Don's mind. Also, we've seen Megan throw parties a few times, it's her thing, gathering groups of people together. She enjoys them and since Don was doing a great job posing as her "soul mate, lover, husband" of course if he just went to a great party, he would love them too. I just don't see the song as "showing off" but maybe that's because I could easily see one of my best friends doing something like that...and it would probably be followed by other friends getting up and singing something over the top too. (True, the friend I speak of is the actress I referred to earlier though...so yeah, it may have something to do with enjoying performing.) To me though, enjoying performing for people isn't "showing off" or even trying to be the center of attention. Another friend of mine is an opera singer (the real deal, international awards and performances at the Met, etc.) who will sing at parties at the drop of a hat, or burst into song while hiking just because the mountains are so beautiful, so... In a way it was a good episode, because it, once and for all, showed the lovebird newlyweds that they had NO idea about the person they had recently impulsively married. Much like Roger and his secretary wife...another story that even though it had less screen time? I thought was SO well done. Edited August 27, 2019 by Umbelina 1 Link to comment
izabella August 27, 2019 Share August 27, 2019 20 hours ago, qtpye said: I still cringe when she proudly tells Peggy that everyone has sex after her parties. That made me laugh because that worldly, liberated Megan who had a view into her own parents' rocky marriage was so quick to marry a man she hardly knew, and then was surprised to find out who he was. 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 27, 2019 Share August 27, 2019 46 minutes ago, Umbelina said: I think just "cancelling the party" while obviously, the "right" thing to do (because we know Don) wasn't that easy, and I do think it Megan's mind, doing that would be silly. Absolutely. To her, the whole thing is a no-brainer. A party's fun. Who cares if it's last minute? That just makes it spontaneous. She clearly has no idea that it could turn out the way it does. Even while it's happening she doesn't get how it's going to fall out. She's completely blindsided when Don makes it clear that no, he didn't actually like it and certainly when she sees that it's made her look silly in front of people in the office instead of it just being something fun. Of course, Don's even crazier with his reaction to her having the gall to not like orange sherbet and completely ignores all the lines he's crossing there. He accuses Megan of being intentionally contrary. Neither of them particularly wants to sit down and think about how their personal ideas just genuinely didn't go along with the other person's. Megan's not just being stubborn about orange sherbet (even if she was already too annoyed to pretend for a while) and the people in the office weren't just abnormally cynical. 52 minutes ago, Umbelina said: I just don't see the song as "showing off" but maybe that's because I could easily see one of my best friends doing something like that...and it would probably be followed by other friends getting up and singing something over the top too. (True, the friend I speak of is the actress I referred to earlier though...so yeah, it may have something to do with enjoying performing.) To me though, enjoying performing for people isn't "showing off" or even trying to be the center of attention. I wouldn't call it showing off either. I did always see it as Megan enjoying the chance to perform--at that point she'd quit acting but obviously she does like to perform because that's what she really wants to be. I wouldn't call it showing off, exactly, but it's a performance. At a party full of actors they totally would have just taken turns singing or whatever. But with a crowd of ad people it becomes a different thing. 42 minutes ago, izabella said: That made me laugh because that worldly, liberated Megan who had a view into her own parents' rocky marriage was so quick to marry a man she hardly knew, and then was surprised to find out who he was. And the little she knew about him basically was her father--he drank and he cheated. Though I think the big difference was that Megan's father was fundamentally never as successful as he wanted to be while Don was very talented. That just didn't fix him. 5 Link to comment
qtpye August 28, 2019 Share August 28, 2019 6 hours ago, Umbelina said: Interesting. Also interesting. I saw it a bit differently from both of you, but I know the episode made me cringe, embarrassed for both Don and Megan, not to mention that bullshit "clean up naked/fight/sex scene" later which again, made me feel I was peeking into more of Weiner's disturbing sexual fantasies. I think Megan was genuinely surprised that Don didn't have any "personal friends." Having to invite office people was more of a default substitute not her original idea, I mean sure, she would have invited Peggy and a few others probably, maybe even have to invite everyone to avoid insulting anyone at the office even. My point is, I don't think she saw the party as an office party, let alone as a show off for the office party. She was a new and very happy bride, and it was her husband's birthday, a perfect chance for their separate friends to meet each other and have fun, and celebrate Don, see their new place, and for her to give a party. I think she enjoys getting people together, and in her mind this was a NORMAL thing to do, have fun and get to know one other's friends. Perfect timing! Only Don had no friends outside of work, and even they were not really his friends. Frankly, that's on Don, and Megan's biggest mistakes were being unwilling to cancel the party after she realized Don had no friends and heard Peggy's warning. In her defense though, arrangements/band/food/drinks/invitations to her friends were probably already in the works. So, she makes do with just office people from Don, and her wider circle of friends. This was her surprise for "the man who has everything" or could easily buy anything he did want. Don's not exactly easy to buy for so she'd decided on the party/song. I didn't see it as an evil plan or as showing off. Weddings are usually the place where their mutual friends and family would meet each other, but Don's impulsive elopement nixed that. So the party could also accomplish that (in Megan's mind) a fun place to "blend the two groups." Honestly, a bit like a reception would have done after a wedding. I don't blame Megan for not knowing that Don would hate it all. She didn't really know him yet, and again, I think she initially thought by having a party to get to know his friends that would help. I also don't blame Megan for Harry's lewd comments and sexual fantasies. That's where the age thing really showed frankly. Her song, while sexy? For a woman her age, with friends her own age (putting myself at that party as a contemporary/friend of Megan?) Was fun, was sexy, and wouldn't have embarrassed me at all had a friend of mine at that age done the same. The problem was entirely on "Don's side" of the party, and for understandable reasons aside from age. Peggy or Pete for example would have probably thought it fun, except, oh yeah, their coworkers/bosses were there and it was being sung to DON, their boss! Hell, if Don had been at a party when that song wasn't being sung to HIM, and his coworkers weren't there, he probably would have been enjoying the party too. Anyway, I think what I'm trying to say is that Megan was young, she was in love, she enjoyed parties, and she went into this plan not realizing Don didn't have any personal friends. I think her heart was in the right place, it wasn't to show off, and it certainly wasn't done to make Don unhappy. I don't really blame Don either, he is who he is, and marrying someone young/happy/carefree didn't make him those things even if he pretended they did for a while. -- Also? I think there were three things that made Don decided to marry Megan. Sally running and falling and Megan being the one to comfort her. The Maria Von Trapp sing along in the hotel room. The spilled milk shake, which would have been hell had Betty been there, but was no big deal/happy with Megan. Sex? Sure, Don likes sex, and sex with Megan was probably good. Don can find good sex anytime though. He married her because the kids liked her and it avoided the whole nanny hassle. Sure, he loved that she made him feel young, and that she loved advertising, and that she was able to have "no strings" sex. The real reason that ring came out though? His kids. She was his solution to many things, since she worked where he worked and was with him 24-7 his natural need to stray was curtailed, and she made him feel young, and she was also a substitute mom. SCORE! Of course, as soon as she began being more than all-Don all the time? Things began to fall apart. It wasn't just the acting, it was also him "owning" her at work, pulling her away from an important campaign in front of her coworkers for a road trip, throwing a fit when she didn't like the ice cream he liked, and of course, that party, when they both realized they weren't really "one" after all. ETA I a weird way it reminds me of Betty's dad. "HE HAS NO PEOPLE!" Dang, let's do Sally. All this talk about Megan...ha. This is what I thought the first two or three times I saw the episode. I really thought Megan was just being vibrant and did not realize she was stuck with such cynicism. However, Megan is no babe in the woods. She was a struggling actress/secretary who has been living in New York for a while. She seemed shocked that she just could not Pollyanna her way into making the party work. On later rewatches, there seems to be something very self centered about Megan’s parties. When she throws the party in the canyon and dances with that hippie to make Don jealous, it just showcases how even so many years later she still has no understanding of her husband. Even worse, the self centered husband does even care about understanding her anymore. Don is now very aware that she is not the dream girl of his fantasies and has stopped trying. The only reason he is still holding on to the marriage is that he can not stand to be a two time failure. It is no accident that his marriage is a disaster and Betty’s is going strong. Don is broken and no woman can fix him. Don is broken and he refuses to do the work to fix himself. I think the big reveal in the series finale is that Don has stopped running from his demons because there is no longer anywhere for him to flee. 7 Link to comment
Roseanna August 28, 2019 Share August 28, 2019 23 hours ago, Umbelina said: Only Don had no friends outside of work, and even they were not really his friends. Frankly, that's on Don, and Megan's biggest mistakes were being unwilling to cancel the party after she realized Don had no friends and heard Peggy's warning. In her defense though, arrangements/band/food/drinks/invitations to her friends were probably already in the works. - - I don't blame Megan for not knowing that Don would hate it all. She didn't really know him yet, and again, I think she initially thought by having a party to get to know his friends that would help. 21 hours ago, sistermagpie said: She's completely blindsided when Don makes it clear that no, he didn't actually like it and certainly when she sees that it's made her look silly in front of people in the office instead of it just being something fun. This episode interesting also in general level. There are people whose words one can lways believe: when they say that they don't like to get a birthday party or Christmas presents, the mean it. But there are also people who say "don't give me or arrange for me anything" but they are disappointed, even bitter, if they are believed. So, how would Megan know, what kind a person Don was? It was understandable that she arranged the party. Maybe Don didn't like partiews because nobody has ever bother to arrange it to him? But when Don said that he hadn't enjoyed the party, but Megan refused to believe him because "all" liked parties - that was a big mistake. It was total lack of communication. Don was honest but Megan refused to listen to him. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 28, 2019 Share August 28, 2019 15 minutes ago, Roseanna said: This episode interesting also in general level. There are people whose words one can lways believe: when they say that they don't like to get a birthday party or Christmas presents, the mean it. But there are also people who say "don't give me or arrange for me anything" but they are disappointed, even bitter, if they are believed. I was thinking that too. If you're the type of person who says they don't like something and it turns out they do, that's on them. Though in this case I think Megan did have clues that Don was being serious, especially since she knew the history and she knew that he really didn't have parties. Plus he probably talked about it in a serious way. But of course it's even worse when he's telling her he didn't enjoy it and she's dismissing it. I remember at the time some were horrified by her breezily responding to his saying "Nobody loved Dick Whitman but I love you." I didn't think it was intentionally cruel, of course, but to me it did suggest that she didn't really understand what Don's childhood meant. Given that context she should have known to at least tread very carefully, maybe start with a small thing, not just start by throwing a big surprise bash. 4 Link to comment
txhorns79 August 28, 2019 Share August 28, 2019 47 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: I didn't think it was intentionally cruel, of course, but to me it did suggest that she didn't really understand what Don's childhood meant. The show never really made clear how much Don actually told Megan about Dick Whitman. It may be he told her a more sanitized version about his life that would explain the name change, without getting into the really awful stuff, or the stealing of someone's identity. 2 Link to comment
Roseanna August 29, 2019 Share August 29, 2019 On 8/28/2019 at 10:38 PM, txhorns79 said: The show never really made clear how much Don actually told Megan about Dick Whitman. It may be he told her a more sanitized version about his life that would explain the name change, without getting into the really awful stuff, or the stealing of someone's identity. That can be, but Megan's words about "poor Dick Whitman" would be meaningless if Don had told only it was his former name. More than that, whereas in Don's first marriage there were tension whether and when Betty will learn the truth about Don lying about his identity (plus his affairs of course), there was never that tension in his second marriage, rather it was the question: even if Don has told the truth about his past, can the marriage succeed, that is, is there inside Don other qualities which make him fail in relationships. 4 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 29, 2019 Share August 29, 2019 On 8/28/2019 at 3:38 PM, txhorns79 said: The show never really made clear how much Don actually told Megan about Dick Whitman. It may be he told her a more sanitized version about his life that would explain the name change, without getting into the really awful stuff, or the stealing of someone's identity. 2 hours ago, Roseanna said: That can be, but Megan's words about "poor Dick Whitman" would be meaningless if Don had told only it was his former name. More than that, whereas in Don's first marriage there were tension whether and when Betty will learn the truth about Don lying about his identity (plus his affairs of course), there was never that tension in his second marriage, rather it was the question: even if Don has told the truth about his past, can the marriage succeed, that is, is there inside Don other qualities which make him fail in relationships. I always read it that Don did basically give Megan the truth--I'm sure he left out some things (especially his being responsible for the real Don's death, for instance) and didn't go into gory detail because he doesn't talk like that, but she did get the whole story. But I took it as this was Don trying to take a shortcut because he knew that Megan would just accept it as fine. It was like the illusion of confession, knowing that whatever he said Megan would tell him he was fine and he thought that would make him fine. But really he never felt truly seen because she was so quick to accept anything--why wouldn't she since she didn't really know him that well? She didn't have any stake in the Don he was pretending to be like other people did. He hadn't lied to her about it. She could hear his story--which is pretty sympathetic, after all. There's nothing really shameful about a mother who was a prostitute and in other people being abusive. But having her tell him it was fine didn't make it fine in Don's own eyes so he was still going to deal with all the behavior that came out of it and Megan was still going to expect him to be normal and not get it. Betty had her biases about who Don really was, but she was still able to see it in context. She was seeing him, imo, more realistically than Megan, especially toward the end of the show. 4 Link to comment
Old Man Neil August 30, 2019 Share August 30, 2019 To me, it's telling that she said "Nobody loves Dick Whitman" as opposed to "Nobody loved Dick Whitman." It's tantamount to telling him I don't love who you really are, I love the rich successful man you became. 2 2 Link to comment
Roseanna August 30, 2019 Share August 30, 2019 6 hours ago, sistermagpie said: I always read it that Don did basically give Megan the truth--I'm sure he left out some things (especially his being responsible for the real Don's death, for instance) and didn't go into gory detail because he doesn't talk like that, but she did get the whole story. But I took it as this was Don trying to take a shortcut because he knew that Megan would just accept it as fine. It was like the illusion of confession, knowing that whatever he said Megan would tell him he was fine and he thought that would make him fine. But really he never felt truly seen because she was so quick to accept anything--why wouldn't she since she didn't really know him that well? She didn't have any stake in the Don he was pretending to be like other people did. He hadn't lied to her about it. She could hear his story--which is pretty sympathetic, after all. There's nothing really shameful about a mother who was a prostitute and in other people being abusive. But having her tell him it was fine didn't make it fine in Don's own eyes so he was still going to deal with all the behavior that came out of it and Megan was still going to expect him to be normal and not get it. Betty had her biases about who Don really was, but she was still able to see it in context. She was seeing him, imo, more realistically than Megan, especially toward the end of the show. A very good analysis! I would only like to add that when Betty said to Don who was sleeping "Who you are", they had been married for years and had two kids. She had had time to realize that Don did never really open himself to her, nor was he willing to listen to her innermost feelings and fear, like when she mourned her mom. No wonder she had problems (although it wasn't all on Don, she wasn't born to be a suburban mom, she thrived when she did the Coca Cola ad). Instead. the party scene happened when Megan and Don were just wed. But that doesn't change the basic fact. Megan had her own ideal image of Don just as he had of her, as all who fell in love have in the beginning. But it always comes time when the image is shattered. Neither Megan nor Don was willing to accept the reality and love one another such are they really were. Instead, Megan believed that making love would make all OK. 1 1 Link to comment
Umbelina August 30, 2019 Share August 30, 2019 I'm going to try to get past Megan and on to Sally for a little while. I always thought Keirnan Shipka was fantastic in the role of Sally, making the most out of every scene she was in. It was an absolute pleasure watching her grow up on screen from the little fledgling ballerina, to the white gogo boots, and the cigarette after kissing the dweeby brother instead of the handsome one while watching the moon through the telescope, to the school vetting by the smart-assed rich girls, and the scenes with her mom in the car afterwards, or with Don showing her where he grew up. Yes, I've heard the criticism of the vocal thing she started doing, but honestly, it didn't bug me at the time or take me out of the moment, even though it didn't become a "thing" until decades later. I was SO looking forward to seeing her act in something else. Then I saw the TV Flowers in the Attic, and damn she was terrible. Seriously terrible, and I was shocked. I stuck it out and waited for her to get better, but she never did. Was it just lack of appropriate direction or rehearsal, or was it because her acting had adjust to Mathew Weiners "TOTAL CONTROL" mode of even typing in when someone should sigh, or blink, or raise their left hand to their forehead, and the actor better damn well do it on the exact word where he wrote that stage direction or he/she would do the scene again!? Whatever it was, Keirnan was completely horrible in the only other thing I've seen her do, and honestly, I was kind of embarrassed for her, and sad about it. On the DVD's she has a couple of commentaries, one was completely embarrassing really, because the episode was so full of sex (I think it was the Disneyland episode) but on the other it was her Grandfather's death, and her comments were so astute, and she even surprised Weiner at one point when she told him why she didn't go inside when the police arrived. He wrote for her not to go inside, of course, but Keirnan had filled it in her mind to she didn't WANT to go in there. I wonder if she's been in anything else? Sally was a great character, and I'm sad that we saw so little of her in the last season. From walking out with a dry cleaner's plastic bag engulfing her, to her first crushes, to her knock down fights with Betty, and her incredibly complicated relationship with Daddy Don? I loved that character and what Keirnan brought to it. I can still picture her crossing her arms and smoking, just like Betty. 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 30, 2019 Share August 30, 2019 10 hours ago, Roseanna said: A very good analysis! I would only like to add that when Betty said to Don who was sleeping "Who you are", they had been married for years and had two kids. She had had time to realize that Don did never really open himself to her, nor was he willing to listen to her innermost feelings and fear, like when she mourned her mom. No wonder she had problems (although it wasn't all on Don, she wasn't born to be a suburban mom, she thrived when she did the Coca Cola ad). Instead. the party scene happened when Megan and Don were just wed. But that doesn't change the basic fact. Megan had her own ideal image of Don just as he had of her, as all who fell in love have in the beginning. But it always comes time when the image is shattered. Neither Megan nor Don was willing to accept the reality and love one another such are they really were. Instead, Megan believed that making love would make all OK. Definitely agree. I was thinking about how when we meet the characters Betty and Don have already been married longer than Don and Megan will be. Betty still doesn't know him in many ways--but I think she has picked up a lot of things just from living with them. I think their domestic life and especially the children seemed to have given more ways to draw conclusions about him and know how much she didn't know. Though I think she still doesn't really start to understand him until maybe season 6 or 7. They've been through a lot by then. Don and Megan get married at some point in 65 and by 69 they're already living apart and Don's started pulling away by 68. They couldn't help but learn more about each other, but that just seemed to make them more like strangers to me. They would never be the kind of exes that even Don and Betty were by S7--and I don't think that's just because the children meant they were always tied to each other and involved with each other. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 30, 2019 Share August 30, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, Umbelina said: I wonder if she's been in anything else? Sally was a great character, and I'm sad that we saw so little of her in the last season. From walking out with a dry cleaner's plastic bag engulfing her, to her first crushes, to her knock down fights with Betty, and her incredibly complicated relationship with Daddy Don? I loved that character and what Keirnan brought to it. I can still picture her crossing her arms and smoking, just like Betty. KS? She's now starring in the New Adventures of Sabrina. I also really liked one movie she did--a little horror movie called the Blackcoat's Daughter. And she was in Feud playing Bette Davis's daughter. I didn't see FitA despite loving that book as a kid. (Because I think that was the law--lol). Totally agree on Sally--what a great character. She was so impossible to fit into a box. They avoided so many cliches. There are some Sally eps where it just feels like such a real memory to me. The two that stand out are The Crash before Ida shows up (because that part's OTT, but the earlier part where it's just Sally reading Rosemary's Baby at Don's apt. alone with her brothers just feels so real) and one of my favorite Sally eps, Mystery Date where she scares herself reading about the Richard Speck murders while staying with Grandma Pauline. I love how she became such a regular figure in Sally's life. Also another interesting note about her was the fashion. I remember people complaining that Sally didn't look like a girl of her era and Tom and Lorenzo pointing out that scene where Sally and her two friends are at dinner with Don and her friends look exactly the way girls did at that time--they look like they'd all be friends with Marcia Brady. Sally doesn't because Sally clearly goes her own way even there. Betty's absolutely an influence on what she thinks looks good no matter what conflicts she has with Betty herself. (Also shout out to one of my all-time favorite Sally lines, when Betty warns her about the dangers of breaking her nose and having to go to some quack to fix it: "It's a nose job, Betty, not an abortion.") Edited August 30, 2019 by sistermagpie 3 Link to comment
caitmcg September 2, 2019 Share September 2, 2019 On 8/28/2019 at 11:46 AM, sistermagpie said: But of course it's even worse when he's telling her he didn't enjoy it and she's dismissing it. I remember at the time some were horrified by her breezily responding to his saying "Nobody loved Dick Whitman but I love you." I didn't think it was intentionally cruel, of course, but to me it did suggest that she didn't really understand what Don's childhood meant. Given that context she should have known to at least tread very carefully, maybe start with a small thing, not just start by throwing a big surprise bash. This is the same scene where he says he's been forty for months already anyway, and Megan responds, "When are you going to get over that? You're forty now." That just tells me that whatever he's told her, she has no clue about his psyche. He wears Don Draper both as a defense against where he came from and also a veneer over Dick Whitman, who he is still and will always be inside. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie September 2, 2019 Share September 2, 2019 9 hours ago, caitmcg said: This is the same scene where he says he's been forty for months already anyway, and Megan responds, "When are you going to get over that? You're forty now." That just tells me that whatever he's told her, she has no clue about his psyche. He wears Don Draper both as a defense against where he came from and also a veneer over Dick Whitman, who he is still and will always be inside. Yes! It's a similar conflict with Megan herself. He knew it would be safe to tell her these things because she wouldn't think they were a big deal. But since she doesn't think they're a big deal, she can't respond to them correctly. It's like telling a secret to someone in a language they don't speak and then expecting to feel unburdened as if you confessed it. It's like the central issue Don has--he keeps telling himself and others that it will shock you how much something didn't happen if you just focus on the now, but over and over it's proved that it doesn't work. You have to work through the thing and make it part of you to really move forward. But Megan doesn't have a past she's leaving behind. For her, the man Don is now actually is the only one there is. She's very young--not in age, but in attitude. (She's the same age as Peggy almost.) 4 Link to comment
izabella September 2, 2019 Share September 2, 2019 3 hours ago, sistermagpie said: It's like the central issue Don has--he keeps telling himself and others that it will shock you how much something didn't happen if you just focus on the now, but over and over it's proved that it doesn't work. You have to work through the thing and make it part of you to really move forward. It's interesting you say that because Don said that to Peggy. And I never saw Peggy remotely working through her pregnancy and giving the baby up for adoption. It seemed like she put it behind her and that was that. It certainly didn't haunt her the way Don was haunted by Dick Whitman. 2 Link to comment
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