Mad Men - General Discussion

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think Joan probably started as a secretary though, and it makes logical sense to me that her relationship with Roger Sterling helped get her the job of office manager, along with her talents.

I'm sure she did start as one. She often still covered secretary desks--for instance, whenever Don had a space open. She and Peggy both worked for him in the pilot because she'd just started and she covered his desk again at some point--maybe after Miss Blankenship died? It was some time when Don had lost a secretary unexpectedly, I think.

It's nice to think that when Joan promoted a secretary to a better position there was no executive favoritism involved. Sure one could say that Joan personally liked Dawn because Dawn seemed to have personal respect for her, but even that reflected her good attitude about the job.

[Umbelina]

20 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I'm sure she did start as one. She often still covered secretary desks--for instance, whenever Don had a space open. She and Peggy both worked for him in the pilot because she'd just started and she covered his desk again at some point--maybe after Miss Blankenship died? It was some time when Don had lost a secretary unexpectedly, I think.

It's nice to think that when Joan promoted a secretary to a better position there was no executive favoritism involved. Sure one could say that Joan personally liked Dawn because Dawn seemed to have personal respect for her, but even that reflected her good attitude about the job.

Joan was a woman though.

I think she probably did use sleeping with the box, as well as excelling, at getting her promotion though.  I'm not saying she didn't deserve it anyway, I'm just saying that kind of thing was the script she was following.

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think she probably did use sleeping with the box, as well as excelling, at getting her promotion though.  I'm not saying she didn't deserve it anyway, I'm just saying that kind of thing was the script she was following.

Absolutely. I actually should have added too, that Joan's whole manner is intentionally flattering and flirtatious to men, so especially when she was a young secretary coming up that would have made her popular with all the execs. Doesn't mean she was sleeping with everyone, of course, but yes, her script was all about pleasing men that way. This is the woman who told Peggy her first day to go home, put a paper bag with eyeholes on her head and stand naked in front of the mirror to honestly assess her strengths and weaknesses.

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Absolutely. I actually should have added too, that Joan's whole manner is intentionally flattering and flirtatious to men, so especially when she was a young secretary coming up that would have made her popular with all the execs. Doesn't mean she was sleeping with everyone, of course, but yes, her script was all about pleasing men that way. This is the woman who told Peggy her first day to go home, put a paper bag with eyeholes on her head and stand naked in front of the mirror to honestly assess her strengths and weaknesses.

How did I write box instead of boss?  Ha!

Also, that perfectly followed Sex And The Single Girl's script, and I'm pretty sure Joan was the embodiment of Helen Gurly Brown's book.

[Roseanna]

18 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The dead man's identity kept him from being shot or imprisoned for desertion 

As the US executed only one man for desertation during WW2, it would very much doubt that Don had any danger to have been shot. And it would have been weird even imprison him after years the war had ended. 

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

As the US executed only one man for desertation during WW2, it would very much doubt that Don had any danger to have been shot. And it would have been weird even imprison him after years the war had ended. 

But really, regardless of what would have really happened to him, Don himself was terrified of anyone finding out. Even if the government didn't punish him at all it might have a very bad affect on his life. Don Draper's identity wasn't the thing that made him successful as a copywriter, but it could take it away. 

It's also interesting because what Don really wanted was to get out of Korea--desertion was the point, and by switching the ID he was back home however much earlier and avoided anything bad that might have happened to him in Korea. But psychologically it probably meant a lot to Dick Whitman that he could be somebody else for real. 

[qtpye]

On 7/14/2019 at 12:49 PM, sistermagpie said:

Yes, Don clearly had the talent to do his job and do it better than most. One place where he's not a fraud at all is as a copy writer. Nobody would, I think, ever say that he's not earning his keep. But if he'd been a woman and just as good as what he does, he wouldn't have gotten the job the way he did. It's not a coincidence that all the executives we meet in 1960 are men--white men. If Joan were a man she'd absolutely have been in an executive position by the time we meet her, but as a woman she's limited to administrative work.

Of course, Joan herself had embraced that path. She claimed she didn't want anything but a rich husband and wasn't trying to become the first woman executive or anything. She wasn't Peggy. But Joan was also taught to believe this was what she should want in ways Don wasn't. She seemed to be in some real denial about what she really wanted for a long time.

That's why I always really like Don's conversation with Suzanne's brother. Don's telling him how he make his life into what he wants--it's advice that Don himself believes and he gives to other people a lot. He came from nothing and changed his life and these other people can too. But Suzanne's brother points out that he's always going to have a seizure disorder and his disability is always going to limit him in the eyes of others. There were doors that were open to Don that weren't open to others.

On 7/15/2019 at 9:18 AM, Roseanna said:

Yes, but isn't just there something essentially American? All immigrants had to leave their old identity behind and create a new one. Some fled injustice and persecution but others had themselves done something they fled. Many changed their names in order to conceal their origins and to be accepted. Some send money to their wives and children so that they could travel to them, but others simply left their family (without divorce) and formed a new one.

Also, just as Don created his new identity from clothes to his family with Betty, he created ads whose essential messege was that "pursuing happiness" was reached by buying things. It was no coincidence that his Kodak ad was based on happy pictures about his family - and that was in  the same time when he himself behaved in a way that was going to destroy his family. 

Also another thing Don was blessed with was blinding good looks and amazingly mysterious charisma. This was a man who was asked to join the “jet set” dilettantes of the super rich just for his swagger. The same people who rejected Pete, an actual blue blood. If Don’s attractiveness was part of his success while Joan’s beauty kinda  held her down a bit.

[txhorns79]

14 minutes ago, qtpye said:

The same people who rejected Pete, an actual blue blood.

I always thought they rejected Pete because he would have seen through them pretty quickly, whereas Don didn't necessarily know any better. 

In terms of Don's identity, I was always very curious as to what exactly Anna had told her family.  They all refer to Don as "Dick," but Stephanie at least seemed to know that Dick was using Don's name.  It wasn't clear to me that her mother knew, even if she seemed wary of Dick and his influence. 

[Umbelina]

56 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I always thought they rejected Pete because he would have seen through them pretty quickly, whereas Don didn't necessarily know any better. 

In terms of Don's identity, I was always very curious as to what exactly Anna had told her family.  They all refer to Don as "Dick," but Stephanie at least seemed to know that Dick was using Don's name.  It wasn't clear to me that her mother knew, even if she seemed wary of Dick and his influence. 

Nah, I agree, they rejected Pete because he was boring, even if he did come from the same "class."  Also, Pete was TRYING to be a part of their set, always a turnoff.

Interesting question, I can see Anna telling Stephanie the truth, but not her sister...ever.  He was just some dude with the same name as her previous husband "Dick."  Still, I've never thought of that before, so it is curious.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Nah, I agree, they rejected Pete because he was boring, even if he did come from the same "class."  Also, Pete was TRYING to be a part of their set, always a turnoff.

Yeah, not just boring but Pete's a totally different kind of rich person. He's Yankee WASP American, not European jet setter who has orgies or whatever. I always think of that group in my head as the Eurotrash. Pete's dad was a really a bounder, but even he ostensibly thought a man should work for a living etc.

Also, Don was obviously a better physical fit. If they're looking for interesting sexual conquests Pete obviously isn't it, even S1.

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, not just boring but Pete's a totally different kind of rich person. He's Yankee WASP American, not European jet setter who has orgies or whatever. I always think of that group in my head as the Eurotrash. Pete's dad was a really a bounder, but even he ostensibly thought a man should work for a living etc.

Honestly, I thought they were essentially sophisticated grifters.  They seemed to live "borrowed" lives in other people's homes, on other people's dimes.  I could easily be wrong, but that was my impression of them.  I mean, doesn't the guy essentially pimp his daughter out to Don in order to gain Don's favor?       

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Honestly, I thought they were essentially sophisticated grifters.  They seemed to live "borrowed" lives in other people's homes, on other people's dimes.  I could easily be wrong, but that was my impression of them.  I mean, doesn't the guy essentially pimp his daughter out to Don in order to gain Don's favor?       

Yes, they seemed to have connections to people with houses etc., but I suspect none of them would be considered as being from "good families" like Pete was. There's nothing solid about them.

But then, it doesn't seem like Don's falling for it either. He recognizes these people are like him and that life with them would be like being a hobo. The only thing that seems to kind of fascinate him is the financial level because unlike with the hobo, he can't really see how they're supporting themselves. Doesn't he even ask at some point exactly what they do and get met by an embarrassed silence? Or maybe he says something about them seeming to have a lot of money or something.

Edited July 18, 2019 by sistermagpie

[txhorns79]

7 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Doesn't he even ask at some point exactly what they do and get met by an embarrassed silence? Or maybe he says something about them seeming to have a lot of money or something.

He does ask them, and you are right that he does get an awkward silence in response. 

[Roseanna]

21 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But really, regardless of what would have really happened to him, Don himself was terrified of anyone finding out. Even if the government didn't punish him at all it might have a very bad affect on his life. Don Draper's identity wasn't the thing that made him successful as a copywriter, but it could take it away. 

It's also interesting because what Don really wanted was to get out of Korea--desertion was the point, and by switching the ID he was back home however much earlier and avoided anything bad that might have happened to him in Korea. But psychologically it probably meant a lot to Dick Whitman that he could be somebody else for real. 

I agree that it was more about Don's fear that if it was found out that he had a false identity, he would lose all he had got. But it didn't happen that way: when Pete found out, Bert said it didn't matter, Don was still a past master in his profession.

On the other hand, in his private life Don paid a heavy price. Don had compartalized his life: work and mistresses in city, a model family in suburb. The latter was a house built on sand as shown by Betty's "problems" that were partly caused by Don's problems and was almost destroyed when Betty found out his cheating. She only let him return home because of pregnancy but it was only a cease-fire. 

Then she found out his false identity. If it had been the only lie, maybe it wouldn't have been fatal, but she knew that he had kept distance all the time and she had never known him. And as she didn't love him any more and a had new man willing to marry her, she got a means to get a divorce. 

Actually, the crux point of the show wasn't "when shall Don be found out and what will happen then" but how Don tried to cope with his childhood thraumas, his false identity and finally the guilt about mistreating people.    

[Umbelina]

16 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, they seemed to have connections to people with houses etc., but I suspect none of them would be considered as being from "good families" like Pete was. There's nothing solid about them.

But then, it doesn't seem like Don's falling for it either. He recognizes these people are like him and that life with them would be like being a hobo. The only thing that seems to kind of fascinate him is the financial level because unlike with the hobo, he can't really see how they're supporting themselves. Doesn't he even ask at some point exactly what they do and get met by an embarrassed silence? Or maybe he says something about them seeming to have a lot of money or something.

9 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

He does ask them, and you are right that he does get an awkward silence in response. 

I think at least one of them was minor nobility, a count or something?  It's been a while since I watched.  The "Jet Set" of that time, were usually old money, with connections, or "interesting" people they picked up along the way, be they artists or beautiful, or free spirited.

Old money doesn't mean this generation had a lot of disposable money though...but what they did have was connections with those who do.  So they jetted off to various vacation houses that belonged to other friends or family around the world, or to this party or that one at various estates.  They weren't exactly poor, obviously they had money for plane tickets and clothing and booze/drugs, but they didn't actually OWN any of the places they lived in.  Daddy did, or Cousin Suzy did, or that nice couple they met at a fun orgy in St. Lucia did, or someone's third step mother did.

Most of them probably had a small/mid sized allowance from the wills of their wealthier ancestors, not enough to actually own houses in all the beautiful places, be they beaches, islands, prestigious ski resorts, or cities like NYC or Paris, or Cannes, Monaco,  Athens...but they had connections, via family usually, to those that did.  I'm sure some of them also inherited various valuable jewelry or art that were sold along the way as well as getting gifts from friends/relatives that were still ultra rich.

This particular group kept a loose schedule of which houses or places weren't being used at various times during the year, and that determined where they would be at any particular time...they packed their suitcases and went to those that sounded good, and were vacant.

ETA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_set

While at many of these places, of course, they rubbed shoulders often with "real money" and had invitations to parties, dinners, events, etc.  They were obviously good fill ins as well, need another beautiful man or woman at your dinner or ball?  One of the Jet Set would fit in and be entertaining?  Of course, at any of these places, more contacts would be made, as well as invitations to other parties or places.  "We are meeting up for a fox hunting week at Dilby's, you should come!" Or, for Primrose's wedding in the south of France, or a ski vacation with Buggy and Boomer in St. Moritz, etc.  Ditto things like "that dress looks fabulous on you, but the color doesn't work for me, here, take it."  You left your skiing gear in Aspen?  No problem, I'm sure we can fit you out, come!

Money breeds money, especially if you have charm and connections, and a free wheeling attitude about sex, which these people?  Did.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Actually, the crux point of the show wasn't "when shall Don be found out and what will happen then" but how Don tried to cope with his childhood thraumas, his false identity and finally the guilt about mistreating people.     

Yes, even Don in the end I think understood that his fear of being found out wasn't about him really being Dick Whitman, it was his thinking that he was a terrible person, as he believed.

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think at least one of them was minor nobility, a count or something?  It's been a while since I watched.  The "Jet Set" of that time, were usually old money, with connections, or "interesting" people they picked up along the way, be they artists or beautiful, or free spirited.

Right--but I think Pete's type of "good family" would see them as weirdo aristocrats. And they'd probably see the New York Dykmans as provincial and uncultured. It's a completely different ideal of what good breeding looks like (even if underneath they might be alike in many unflattering ways).

I also remember having the vague impression that somebody had some connection to nobility--although of course that doesn't mean they're not also a conman or something of a bum. Plus there was the guy who was, iirc, a doctor. They clearly live in a wealthy world. They probably have truly cultured educations, speak many languages, are familiar with lots of places, know about art etc.

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Old money doesn't mean this generation had a lot of disposable money though...but what they did have was connections with those who do.  So they jetted off to various vacation houses that belonged to other friends or family around the world, or to this party or that one at various estates.  They weren't exactly poor, obviously they had money for plane tickets and clothing and booze/drugs, but they didn't actually OWN any of the places they lived in.  Daddy did, or Cousin Suzy did, or that nice couple they met at a fun orgy in St. Lucia did, or someone's third step mother did.

Most of them probably had a small/mid sized allowance from the wills of their wealthier ancestors, not enough to actually own houses in all the beautiful places, be they beaches, islands, prestigious ski resorts, or cities like NYC or Paris, or Cannes, Monaco,  Athens...but they had connections, via family usually, to those that did.  I'm sure some of them also inherited various valuable jewelry or art that were sold along the way as well as getting gifts from friends/relatives that were still ultra rich.

This particular group kept a loose schedule of which houses or places weren't being used at various times during the year, and that determined where they would be at any particular time...they packed their suitcases and went to those that sounded good, and were vacant.

ETA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_set

While at many of these places, of course, they rubbed shoulders often with "real money" and had invitations to parties, dinners, events, etc.  They were obviously good fill ins as well, need another beautiful man or woman at your dinner or ball?  One of the Jet Set would fit in and be entertaining?  Of course, at any of these places, more contacts would be made, as well as invitations to other parties or places.  "We are meeting up for a fox hunting week at Dilby's, you should come!" Or, for Primrose's wedding in the south of France, or a ski vacation with Buggy and Boomer in St. Moritz, etc.  Ditto things like "that dress looks fabulous on you, but the color doesn't work for me, here, take it."  You left your skiing gear in Aspen?  No problem, I'm sure we can fit you out, come!

Money breeds money, especially if you have charm and connections, and a free wheeling attitude about sex, which these people?  Did.

Exactly--this totally nails the general impression I had of them. There's something false and empty at the center of them, but it's not connected to the class they're claiming to be from. They're not like Don--but it's no surprise that they would see Don as potentially one of them despite his having come from nothing and would never feel much familiarity with Pete who did grow up in a world of money and there might be a few places they might cross paths.

Of course, Don's also so attractive and mysterious people want to see him as part of their type, but that's not all this is.

[Umbelina]

15 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, even Don in the end I think understood that his fear of being found out wasn't about him really being Dick Whitman, it was his thinking that he was a terrible person, as he believed.

Right--but I think Pete's type of "good family" would see them as weirdo aristocrats. And they'd probably see the New York Dykmans as provincial and uncultured. It's a completely different ideal of what good breeding looks like (even if underneath they might be alike in many unflattering ways).

I also remember having the vague impression that somebody had some connection to nobility--although of course that doesn't mean they're not also a conman or something of a bum. Plus there was the guy who was, iirc, a doctor. They clearly live in a wealthy world. They probably have truly cultured educations, speak many languages, are familiar with lots of places, know about art etc.

Exactly--this totally nails the general impression I had of them. There's something false and empty at the center of them, but it's not connected to the class they're claiming to be from. They're not like Don--but it's no surprise that they would see Don as potentially one of them despite his having come from nothing and would never feel much familiarity with Pete who did grow up in a world of money and there might be a few places they might cross paths.

Of course, Don's also so attractive and mysterious people want to see him as part of their type, but that's not all this is.

I completely agree that's how they would see Pete.

Don does fit in with them though, he has charm, incredible looks, and a "different" take on morality, style, secrets and the accompanying sense of mystery, and most of all, he wasn't trying, at heart he's also something of an artist himself, as well as someone who plays on what others need.

Don certainly saw them as "empty" and their lives hollow or maybe more like their lives are based on illusions, not solid ground.  Which?  They were, but then again, they were living pretty good lives, in contrast to, for example, the place Don grew up, or hardscrabble farmers, coal miners, janitors. 

In many ways Don would have fit right in, and probably have done well, via introductions, and left them for something more solid later.  Don though, was the very definition of an American Capitalist who was succeeding, earning it on his own meant something to him, he needed that hidden money, the bank accounts, the Caddy, all of it, to feel worthy.

In the final season though, what does he end up doing?  In a way, a poor man's version of that life, no possessions, drifting, staying here or there, with his friend, or with the car racing crew.

Until money, fame, power, and creativity lead him back to the rat race...

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Don does fit in with them though, he has charm, incredible looks, and a "different" take on morality, style, secrets and the accompanying sense of mystery, and most of all, he wasn't trying, at heart he's also something of an artist himself, as well as someone who plays on what others need.

Absolutely. I might not have been clear, but I did think they were absolutely right to see Don as fitting in with them. It made sense to me that Don ultimately *didn't* see them as right for him--at base there was a different. But the parts they saw in him that fit in with them were right too. If he had wanted to join them he would have done very well with them. He actually might have become one of the most powerful in their group, maybe in part because eventually he would have wanted to leave them too. I think he'd always remain elusive to them.

[Umbelina]

8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Absolutely. I might not have been clear, but I did think they were absolutely right to see Don as fitting in with them. It made sense to me that Don ultimately *didn't* see them as right for him--at base there was a different. But the parts they saw in him that fit in with them were right too. If he had wanted to join them he would have done very well with them. He actually might have become one of the most powerful in their group, maybe in part because eventually he would have wanted to leave them too. I think he'd always remain elusive to them.

I would watch a show about those people too, I still remember most of them, which is remarkable really, since they were a blip in a very long show.

Someone needs to do that.

[txhorns79]

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think at least one of them was minor nobility, a count or something?  It's been a while since I watched.  The "Jet Set" of that time, were usually old money, with connections, or "interesting" people they picked up along the way, be they artists or beautiful, or free spirited.

I had figured it was a fake title made up to make the person seem more impressive.  I mean, it was 1962, so it's not like they were going to Google his claim.  Maybe it was just me, but I didn't take anything they were saying at face value.     

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I had figured it was a fake title made up to make the person seem more impressive.  I mean, it was 1962, so it's not like they were going to Google his claim.  Maybe it was just me, but I didn't take anything they were saying at face value.     

Could be.  I thought it was true.  There were a LOT of "used to be nobility" around that time, monarchy was on the way out pretty much everywhere...except of course the UK, held together by a thread and QEII.  A count was relatively minor anyway, there were former Kings around without a country to rule anymore.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Umbelina
clarity

[Roseanna]

On ‎7‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 5:33 AM, txhorns79 said:

I had figured it was a fake title made up to make the person seem more impressive.  I mean, it was 1962, so it's not like they were going to Google his claim. 

There were reliable books about aristocratic families in every country, unlike Google that includes much inaccurate information.   

[txhorns79]

16 hours ago, Roseanna said:

There were reliable books about aristocratic families in every country, unlike Google that includes much inaccurate information.   

True, but if someone claims to be a European viscount during an initial meeting, it's not like someone is going to immediately run off to the library to go see if they can verify the story.  That was really my point.  The information exists, but it's not like it would be easily accessible so you could try to verify their story on the fly.     

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

True, but if someone claims to be a European viscount during an initial meeting, it's not like someone is going to immediately run off to the library to go see if they can verify the story.  That was really my point.  The information exists, but it's not like it would be easily accessible so you could try to verify their story on the fly.     

But the fact that such a family exists is no proof that the person belongs to it. One must also look at the passport.

More essentially, most European countries have abolished aristocratic titles. I have met many and even worked with some who have descended from the aristocracy but they have never themselves even mentioned it, except if I have visited a castle or manor they have opened to the public.

Except situation of that kind, if somebody who is not a Brit would introduce himself as viscount, I would regard him (at least) as a superfluous person. 

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Except situation of that kind, if somebody who is not a Brit would introduce himself as viscount, I would regard him (at least) as a superfluous person. 

To point to obvious modern examples, The Real Housewives of New York reality show had two cast members with titles. One was a countess and often referred to herself as such. She'd married somebody who was a count. She lost her title when she got divorced but when people called/call her the countess it was mostly a way to refer her thinking she was important and thinking the title meant she was very classy and well-mannered, which she wasn't, particularly.

The other one was a widow who'd also married into her title and she never used it. In her case it was more like a fun fact that was just sort of odd. People would say wait, so you're actually a princess? And it was true, but not a title she ever seriously used. It was more a quirk of her husband's genealogy, that she hadn't made a big part of her identity.

With the group Don met it's quite possible if there was a guy who technically had an inherited title he might have used it whenever he thought it would be helpful to get him what he wanted. The type of person who'd buy it and be impressed by it in the moment probably wouldn't research it. They'd want to believe it, so they'd assume it was true. These might be people who needed to lean on things like that to live, so they'd drop it more into conversation.

Edited July 21, 2019 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

As I mentioned before, aristocracy was on the way out all over Europe, with the UK being the last hold out, and the two world wars getting rid of whatever was left.

By the 60s/70s there were a lot of formerly titled but powerless and some penniless people roaming around the world and using their titles as a kind of allure for invitations/introductions.

I think checking books on "nobility" was more of a European thing than an American thing, and if anyone here even cared beyond, "cool, what are you drinking?" I'd be surprised, especially in LA at that time.

Short answer?  He probably was, because especially in that "jet set" crowd, he'd fit right in.  Manners, connections, charm, the right family, but very little money, and no desire to work for a living.

[Umbelina]

http://www.artnet.com/artists/slim-aarons/

Slim Aaron's photography of the "jet set" obviously inspired Mad Men's producers/designers.

A little personal story about "The Jet Set."  I used to work for Club Med in the late seventies.  Every so often a sailing yacht would pull into our bay and our boss (a European) would put us all on alert.  While in my young, naive eyes, I thought meeting people from the yacht might be cool?  He, and the French chefs we had were all quite full of disdain.  We were all told to keep an eye out for strangers, especially them, at meal times (and yes, they did show up, and were shown out.)

It was eye opening for me to learn that those beautiful people (and they were, everyone of them, beautiful and cool, I met many of them at the beaches) were "grifters and thieves" and would be looking for a free meal, as well as hooking up with guests/staff for a hot shower and whatever else they could get.

Lunches and breakfasts were always served buffet style so those were the most vulnerable times, but a couple of them even tried to be seated for dinner.  I got quite an education from the long time Club Med staffers, apparently, Clubs around the world were always on the look out for "the Jet Set" bunch, and the size of the yacht was irrelevant, since it was almost always borrowed, but the reality was, those on board couldn't even afford to buy a meal, and knew that a place like Club Med was an easy target.  Until...it wasn't, because so many of them did that.  They preferred lunch and dinner since wine was included.  They also tried to show up at the bar or disco, almost always able to get someone to buy them a drink or 7.  As I said, they were, each in their own way, very attractive, and the French or Italian or whatever accents didn't hurt either.

Our bouncers were busy when the yachts came.

Edited July 21, 2019 by Umbelina
typo

[txhorns79]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Slim Aaron's photography of the "jet set" obviously inspired Mad Men's producers/designers.

Is that what people who worked on the show have actually said?  I mean, those pictures look fairly generic in terms of portraying California glamour, and are more late 60s/early 70s, than early 60s. 

[Umbelina]

12 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Is that what people who worked on the show have actually said?  I mean, those pictures look fairly generic in terms of portraying California glamour, and are more late 60s/early 70s, than early 60s. 

I just watched this episode again with commentary from Weiner, the director and David Carbonara the musical director. Weiner says he was influenced by Slim Aarons' photography in setting the tone and style for the episode, so that is a new internet rabbit hole for me to explore.

Duck's face before, during and after that drink - heartbreaking. Weiner says he wanted the scene to play like Popeye eating his spinach, and it certainly does.
https://fanfare.metafilter.com/626/Mad-Men-The-Jet-Set-Rewatch

By the way, Slim Aaron's didn't just photograph the jet set in California, he has photos from all over the world, specifically places the rich or famous or jet set hung out.  He's credited with capturing that lifestyle better than anyone else. 

Edited July 21, 2019 by Umbelina

[Roseanna]

I was never interested in Megan and I didn't like she got so much screen time, but now I am going to think it mostly not because of herself but because of Don. His second marriage told also much about his first one whose beginning we weren't shown.

I think especially the scene where Don, after helping Megan to get the role in Cinderella ad, goes to a bar and a woman there makes a pass on him. We weren't shown what happened next, but the supposition was that it was the first time Don cheated Megan. 

Obviously, Don was disappointed with Megan who didn't try to succeed on her own, but begged her husband's help. That wasn't bad in itself but to Don thought so. Megan wasn't up to ideal he had believed her to be.

That was a natural developiment in the relationship. Now it would have been high time for Don to learn to know his wife for real and start to discuss with her about their values in life and marriages. But Don was unable to do it.

Was it the same with Betty? Was it also the time when he started to cheat her? 

But with Betty, he a long time conducted his affairs in the city. With Megan, he soon began an affair with their neifhbor's wife as if he was trying to be caught, instead of saying that he wanted a divorce.

When Megan in their last scene wonders how Don got her believe in him, I just couldn't understand how much she deluded herself. It was Megan who, as his secretary, suggested that they slept together and she was hardly unaware that his suggestion to take care of his children in California included to sleep with him also there. The only time  Don made her believe in him was when he looked at her with admiration in the morning when he proposed to her, but as his secretary Megan knew his past and an adult she was responsible for her decision. That she had "wasted her youth" by marrying Don was sheer nonsense. If she hadn't married him, she would probably have been still a secretary - only by marrying him she got the role in Cinderella ad and, because of that, in the soap.  

[izabella]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

That she had "wasted her youth" by marrying Don was sheer nonsense.

She was only married a couple of years, if that.  And she was paid $1M by Don for it.  She had one of the best endings of any of them - free of Don, free to pretend she could act, a cute little house in California, $1M check to invest and her whole life ahead of her.

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, izabella said:

She was only married a couple of years, if that.  And she was paid $1M by Don for it.  She had one of the best endings of any of them - free of Don, free to pretend she could act, a cute little house in California, $1M check to invest and her whole life ahead of her.

I wouldn't call it a good ending at all. Megan hadn't learned anything but continued to believe that all was Don's fault and she had no responsibility for her decisions. No doubt she had money enough to enjoy herself until the end of her life (if she didn't lose it by speculation or falling a victim of a scammer) - but what did she life for? She had no job to give a meaning nor intimate relationships. 

Compare this with Peggy who never was bitter towards Pete. She was willing to work hard for her success and even after she was a pro she was willing to learn more. Plus, she was generous even towards Megan when she succeeded in the bean ad she had failed. When she was angry towards Don who didn't value her as she deserved, she said it aloud and when that didn't succeed, she acted and found a new job. 

I am not enthusiastic about Peggy's relationship with Stan, but at least she knew him for real and had no illusions about him and valued him for what he was (well, a little bit more, I don't recall that he used to get all okay).  

[doodlebug]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I wouldn't call it a good ending at all. Megan hadn't learned anything but continued to believe that all was Don's fault and she had no responsibility for her decisions. No doubt she had money enough to enjoy herself until the end of her life (if she didn't lose it by speculation or falling a victim of a scammer) - but what did she life for? She had no job to give a meaning nor intimate relationships. 

Compare this with Peggy who never was bitter towards Pete. She was willing to work hard for her success and even after she was a pro she was willing to learn more. Plus, she was generous even towards Megan when she succeeded in the bean ad she had failed. When she was angry towards Don who didn't value her as she deserved, she said it aloud and when that didn't succeed, she acted and found a new job. 

I am not enthusiastic about Peggy's relationship with Stan, but at least she knew him for real and had no illusions about him and valued him for what he was (well, a little bit more, I don't recall that he used to get all okay).  

I think that was the point of Megan; she was one of those people who go through life expecting things to always go their way, no matter what.  And, when they don't, it must'vee be somebody else' fault because she would never take ownership..  Don did more for her acting career than most husbands could've.  He gave her a beautiful, secure home and lifestyle, first in NYC, then in California.  He paid for acting classes, he used his connections to help her advance.  Yet, when push came to shove, Megan didn't have the talent or the drive to take things to the next level.  And she blamed Don because she was incapable of taking responsibility for her own career and choices.  Peggy, on the other hand, owned her life, her decisions, good and bad were hers and she didn't waste time being angry at other people when the world didn't turn her way.  They were perfect contrasts to one another in that way.

[sistermagpie]

On 7/26/2019 at 7:26 PM, izabella said:

She was only married a couple of years, if that.  And she was paid $1M by Don for it.  She had one of the best endings of any of them - free of Don, free to pretend she could act, a cute little house in California, $1M check to invest and her whole life ahead of her.

16 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I wouldn't call it a good ending at all. Megan hadn't learned anything but continued to believe that all was Don's fault and she had no responsibility for her decisions. No doubt she had money enough to enjoy herself until the end of her life (if she didn't lose it by speculation or falling a victim of a scammer) - but what did she life for? She had no job to give a meaning nor intimate relationships. 

9 hours ago, doodlebug said:

I think that was the point of Megan; she was one of those people who go through life expecting things to always go their way, no matter what.  And, when they don't, it must'vee be somebody else' fault because she would never take ownership..  Don did more for her acting career than most husbands could've.  He gave her a beautiful, secure home and lifestyle, first in NYC, then in California.  He paid for acting classes, he used his connections to help her advance.  Yet, when push came to shove, Megan didn't have the talent or the drive to take things to the next level.  And she blamed Don because she was incapable of taking responsibility for her own career and choices.  Peggy, on the other hand, owned her life, her decisions, good and bad were hers and she didn't waste time being angry at other people when the world didn't turn her way.  They were perfect contrasts to one another in that way.

That's what I thought about Megan too. This was a show full of people who got a lot of enjoyment out of work. Even if they didn't start out that way, they eventually discovered that they could get satisfaction through the work itself whether or not they succeeded. Peggy wasn't just competing with Megan and could recognize good work when she saw it from someone else. She hired Ginsberg even though he would be competition.

Pete really grew as a person when he was brought low at work and built himself back up again on his own. Don might have sometimes been lazy at work, but he clearly got satisfaction from it.

Megan wanted to be an actress but obviously didn't have the inner grit to keep slogging without the validation from the outside. She didn't take her boss' notes as a challenge or something to think about, she basically just thought he was being difficult. She didn't seem to really have a way of feeling she was doing well on her own.

So in a way, without meaning to, Don probably gave her the worst thing he could--the ability to pretend to be an actress forever. But the idea that he really hurt her is silly. She was married a short time to a man who was exactly what she saw him to be early on (a drunk and a cheater) and she's still young. That's why somehow she seems to have a downer ending despite a fabulous house in California and a million dollars.

[txhorns79]

On 7/27/2019 at 8:08 PM, sistermagpie said:

Peggy wasn't just competing with Megan and could recognize good work when she saw it from someone else. She hired Ginsberg even though he would be competition.

Peggy was very mature vis a vis Megan.  I think she did get a little kick out of helping another woman succeed at the office, and probably why she reacted so negatively when Megan confessed she didn't like the work.  I think Peggy saw that as a failure on her part, as well as realizing she was going to get blamed if Megan left.  

On 7/27/2019 at 8:08 PM, sistermagpie said:

So in a way, without meaning to, Don probably gave her the worst thing he could--the ability to pretend to be an actress forever. But the idea that he really hurt her is silly. She was married a short time to a man who was exactly what she saw him to be early on (a drunk and a cheater) and she's still young. That's why somehow she seems to have a downer ending despite a fabulous house in California and a million dollars.

I would say Don did hurt Megan in two ways.  She did quit a real, steady acting gig to be with him in California.  He also left her alone in California, an environment where she needed his emotional support as her career faltered.  That isn't to say that I agreed that Don "ruined" Megan's life or destroyed her career.  I think she was mostly saying that because she was at a very low point after Harry tried to proposition her.    

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Peggy was very mature vis a vis Megan.  I think she did get a little kick out of helping another woman succeed at the office, and probably why she reacted so negatively when Megan confessed she didn't like the work.  I think Peggy saw that as a failure on her part, as well as realizing she was going to get blamed if Megan left.  

This makes me think of that great moment when Don's being angry at Peggy for messing up the whipped cream commercial pitch and Peggy pointing out that it's not really her (Peggy) that he's angry at. It's like both of them feel personally rejected or like they've failed somehow because of Megan.

3 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I would say Don did hurt Megan in two ways.  She did quit a real, steady acting gig to be with him in California.  He also left her alone in California, an environment where she needed his emotional support as her career faltered.  That isn't to say that I agreed that Don "ruined" Megan's life or destroyed her career.  I think she was mostly saying that because she was at a very low point after Harry tried to proposition her.    

Oh yeah, I think anyone would be annoyed thinking about how they only left their steady acting job that made them so happy and had people coming up to them as fans just because this guy said they would have this new life in California and then not only did they not come, they lied about it for months about why!

But of course that's a slightly different issue than the way Megan is presenting it when she's feeling so hopeless after the thing with Harry and her family etc. She felt like a more general failure there, I think, and she had reason to be. Because Megan was actually excited about moving to California because, iirc, she said she and her agent were already thinking about that because she assumed her career was on the way up. Then when that didn't work she didn't have the inner resources to keep herself from sliding into a big pity party. She herself was the one who admitted she didn't really want Don to come out to California after all that time and said she didn't want anything from him. Then she got a blow to her ego and lashed out at Don.

Megan might have been a happier person with a happier life if she'd never met Don, but still I think the thing that drew her to Don was the same thing that would have tripped her up in the end in some other way.

[Roseanna]

On 7/31/2019 at 3:49 AM, txhorns79 said:

Peggy was very mature vis a vis Megan.  I think she did get a little kick out of helping another woman succeed at the office, and probably why she reacted so negatively when Megan confessed she didn't like the work.  I think Peggy saw that as a failure on her part, as well as realizing she was going to get blamed if Megan left.     

I don't recall that Peggy helped Megan in any way. Megan needed no help from Peggy as she became a copywriter not because she had shown any talents for it but simply because she was the boss's wife. Peggy was quite annoyed for it and until the bean ad succeeded, Megan didn't do anything remarkable. Peggy's situation was difficult: when Don asked if Megan can leave early, Peggy could say only "OK" - quite unlike with her other workers who wouldn't probably even dared to ask!

As for Megan leaving, as she wasn't hired by an other ad company but wanted to act, why on earth would anyone blame Peggy?

Peggy was simply astonished that Megan didn't want and value the same as she did.

[Roseanna]

On 7/31/2019 at 3:49 AM, txhorns79 said:

I would say Don did hurt Megan in two ways.  She did quit a real, steady acting gig to be with him in California.  He also left her alone in California, an environment where she needed his emotional support as her career faltered.  

I don't call that "hurting" someone at all. Megan is an adult and she was responsible for her own decisions. Don didn't manipulate her to leave for California, she jumped to his idea straightaway, not because she wanted to be with him but bacuse of her own career. She could have say no and stay in the soap - their marriage wasn't so fine the she couldn't live without him. In the same way she could have said no to his proposal and could earlier ave continued her acting career instead of becoming a secretary.

Somebody said earlier that as Megan didn't have to earn her living as Don's career, she could have been devoted herself to the experimental theater (or whatever). But it wasn't acting she was primarily interested, she wanted to become a star.   

[Roseanna]

On 7/28/2019 at 3:08 AM, sistermagpie said:

Don might have sometimes been lazy at work

Don's habit to leave the office for his own matters might seem laziness, playing hooky. But there is no guarantee that one gets best ides by sitting all the dayd and nights in the Office. Sometimes a little variety helps better.

However, Don had been lazy before a meeting (or was it even two meetings?) with Rachel. I can't help to wonder why women in fiction fall for guys who first angers them. Don even insulted Rachel in two ways: by her ability to succeed as a boss because she was a woman, and the possibility of a Jewish department store to get others customers.

In the beginning of his marriage with Megan Don was lazy because he was (or pretended to be) too happy to be interested in the work,

And then there was of course his drinking problems. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

I don't recall that Peggy helped Megan in any way. Megan needed no help from Peggy as she became a copywriter not because she had shown any talents for it but simply because she was the boss's wife. Peggy was quite annoyed for it and until the bean ad succeeded, Megan didn't do anything remarkable. Peggy's situation was difficult: when Don asked if Megan can leave early, Peggy could say only "OK" - quite unlike with her other workers who wouldn't probably even dared to ask!

As for Megan leaving, as she wasn't hired by an other ad company but wanted to act, why on earth would anyone blame Peggy?

Peggy was simply astonished that Megan didn't want and value the same as she did.

I assumed they just meant Peggy's general attitude. She didn't give Megan special help or anything, but she was always supportive of her and didn't hold Don's attitude against her. Like when Megan hit a home run with Heinz Peggy was genuinely happy for her. Megan wouldn't see Peggy as her special mentor or anything, but I don't think she ever doubted that Peggy was in her corner in a general way.

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

I don't call that "hurting" someone at all. Megan is an adult and she was responsible for her own decisions. Don didn't manipulate her to leave for California, she jumped to his idea straightaway, not because she wanted to be with him but bacuse of her own career. She could have say no and stay in the soap - their marriage wasn't so fine the she couldn't live without him. In the same way she could have said no to his proposal and could earlier ave continued her acting career instead of becoming a secretary.

Somebody said earlier that as Megan didn't have to earn her living as Don's career, she could have been devoted herself to the experimental theater (or whatever). But it wasn't acting she was primarily interested, she wanted to become a star.   

I do really like the way Megan is being so dishonest in the end because it's so believable. She was clearly high on her career when the California thing came up and thought she was just going to continue her success with Don at her side. She did have good reason to be angry when Don changed his mind and suddenly she was going to California alone instead of with him, but it's obvious why later on she'd want to remember herself as making a sacrifice for Don in going to California when she really didn't think that the first time.

Really, she just put herself into the same position she'd been in earlier in her life--one that probably would have happened anyway because that soap wasn't going to last forever. She was an out of work actress, which is the reality of all actresses at one time or another. It was also the part of the job she never learned to handle. First she quit and went into advertising. Then she begged Don to get her  commercial.

Heh, given the stuff above about Peggy it also makes me remember how Megan subtly changed what happened when Peggy covered for her about sneaking out to an audition. Megan says something that implies she told Peggy her secret and was honest and Peggy says something like, "You didn't tell me. I caught you."

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Really, she just put herself into the same position she'd been in earlier in her life--one that probably would have happened anyway because that soap wasn't going to last forever. She was an out of work actress, which is the reality of all actresses at one time or another. It was also the part of the job she never learned to handle. First she quit and went into advertising. Then she begged Don to get her  commercial.

Ha!

That just made me think of something.  Of all the acting jobs that actually COULD last forever?  There is only one, and that is being a soap star.  She might stay one one soap her entire life, and do some acting gigs here and there (ala Susan Lucci) or she might do several long runs on different soaps.  She's already played twins after all.  She was coming into the time where careers, at least a few, were launched from soaps too.  Soaps were a good place for her, she could learn, meet people, and yes, she could have stayed forever, and had the fame she craved too.

[sistermagpie]

25 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

That just made me think of something.  Of all the acting jobs that actually COULD last forever?  There is only one, and that is being a soap star.  She might stay one one soap her entire life, and do some acting gigs here and there (ala Susan Lucci) or she might do several long runs on different soaps.  She's already played twins after all.  She was coming into the time where careers, at least a few, were launched from soaps too.  Soaps were a good place for her, she could learn, meet people, and yes, she could have stayed forever, and had the fame she craved too.

Believe it or not, I was thinking of that when I said it--and then i decided that since that soap didn't exist it wouldn't still be on the air for long, much like Dark Shadows. LOL!

But yes, you're totally right that probably what would have been right for her would be to stay on the soap forever, or at least as long as she could. She might have eventually gotten the boot if the producers were not longer that interested in her, of course. But she really had found a good niche for herself. She didn't seem to have what it took to be a Susan Lucci, but she was solid last we saw.

[txhorns79]

22 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

She didn't seem to have what it took to be a Susan Lucci, but she was solid last we saw.

In fairness, does any soap opera actor have what it takes to be a Susan Lucci?  I know that several soaps have very long running actors on them, but the only one I could ever name, aside from perhaps Diedre Hall, is Susan Lucci.  I think she's probably the one soap actress a person who never watched soap operas, could name. 

On 8/4/2019 at 12:32 PM, sistermagpie said:

She did have good reason to be angry when Don changed his mind and suddenly she was going to California alone instead of with him, but it's obvious why later on she'd want to remember herself as making a sacrifice for Don in going to California when she really didn't think that the first time.

I think she knew she was making a sacrifice at the time.  She may have wanted to make the sacrifice of giving up a steady acting job, in that she thought her career would be okay and it could save her floundering marriage to Don, but I do think she made a sacrifice for him.  And again, I'll just say that does not mean anything she said in May 1970 about Don ruining her career was true, but I do think she did give up something to make the move to California, which was done at Don's request. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

In fairness, does any soap opera actor have what it takes to be a Susan Lucci?  I know that several soaps have very long running actors on them, but the only one I could ever name, aside from perhaps Diedre Hall, is Susan Lucci.  I think she's probably the one soap actress a person who never watched soap operas, could name. 

Honestly? I don't think she had what it took to be any of those really longterm people because I honestly thought she was shown to be not very good or fun to watch. 

Not that I really know since it's not like I can watch the show. But there are so many ingenues that come and go on soaps it seems unlikely given what we saw that Megan would be one of the lucky few that made the longterm.

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I think she knew she was making a sacrifice at the time.  She may have wanted to make the sacrifice of giving up a steady acting job, in that she thought her career would be okay and it could save her floundering marriage to Don, but I do think she made a sacrifice for him.  And again, I'll just say that does not mean anything she said in May 1970 about Don ruining her career was true, but I do think she did give up something to make the move to California, which was done at Don's request. 

Absolutely, I agree. What she says at the end about Don is distorted because of the emotional state she's in and she's wishing she didn't go. But if Don hadn't come home with his impulsive plea to move to California so he could get away from his demons, Megan would still be on the soap. She'd been talking to her agent about the possibilities in California, but she wasn't planning it. Certainly she wasn't planning on just moving herself there completely overnight. She wasn't changing any of the facts, she was just blowing them up to fit the way she was feeling in that moment--like Don ruined her whole life and career etc., and of course not feeling particularly grateful for stuff like the Butler shoe ad or Don financing her ability to act without working or remembering how optimistic she probably was to start with. 

[Umbelina]

I agree with you both about the Susan Lucci thing. @sistermagpie and @txhorns79

However, back when I used to watch soaps?  LOTS of actresses from one soap suddenly appeared on another, or "came back from the dead" on their previous soap.  It was steady work, and worked well around raising a family, and as Soap Opera Digest continually pointed out, soap fans are loyal, not just to their soap, but also to the actors.

I think Megan was getting better, and she certainly had a lot of fans, which was sometimes a bigger factor than skills.  

The thing is, I don't think Megan was ever a "gold digger."  I think she really loved Don, and later, was slowly but surely pulling him out of the fifties and into the sixties and seventies, where women were beginning to realize that they were entitled to their own hopes and dreams and lives as well, and not just servants to their husband's hopes/dreams/lives.  I think she was devastated when he cheated on her.

We can argue about whether or not she would have succeeded as an actress in NYC, but my general feeling is she had a much better chance there.  She was studying and sincere, so I'm not sure it was all about fame either.  The theater groups were around, and soap schedules generally allowed for doing things like that, and there were other opportunities available in NYC as well.  Hollywood (and yeah, I was there during Megan's years there) was completely different, and the show captured that pretty well.  Beautiful women were everywhere, and looks mattered much more than in the NYC area.  It was a cold and heartless and soul killing place in ways the show may have touched on, but not really landed.  Don't get me wrong, I loved LA, but I wasn't trying to be an actress.

  A friend of mine was though, and she was very talented with an impressive theater resume.  Oddly enough she looked like Susan Lucci, only younger, prettier, and she was a very strong woman.  Still, after 9 months in Hollywood, her confidence had plummeted to the point where I could barely recognize her.  I'm leaving out the "casting couch" horrors which were constant, Megan's encounter with Harry was typical and more common than not.

I ended up heading back to LA (I'd move to Northern Ca) and got her out of there.  She was a size 0 (2 back then) and they wanted her to lose weight, get a boob job, "fix" her nose which was exactly like Lucci's, Italian nose, casting calls were both humiliating and degrading...there is so much more, but in short, Hollywood chewed her up and spat her out.  After a few months out of there, she bounced back well, but completely stopped acting.

So, in a way, I confess that when I watched Megan there, I was inherently more sympathetic to her story, because I'd watched it before, in real life.

ETA, I want to add something.

The sexual harassment and desperation and beauty issues weren't limited to women, although obviously, the numbers of issues were greater there.  I was dragged to a Chippendale's show once.  I was so uncomfortable and after, I started "interviewing" the dancers as a way to make myself more comfortable in that environment.  I probably talked to half of them in depth, because one would pass me on to the next with introductions "I think you want to talk to her."

Each one was an aspiring actor or dancer, and the quality of the dancing at the LA shows was phenomenal.  Each one told stories of banging various women attending the show "upstairs" and that it was "part of the job, sometimes OK or fun, but mostly to "get the numbers in for management."  Each one was stunning and talented, and had dreams of being a real actor, or told stories of those that "made it out."  I ended up really loving those guys, and feeling very sad for them, stuck in another version of "the Hollywood machine."

ETA again, I'm not saying NYC didn't have "casting couch" and dehumanizing situations too, but "looks" were not quite as much of an issue.  Also, remember Megan WAS cast for a Broadway show, but Don shut it down.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Umbelina
typos of course and an ETA

[txhorns79]

23 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think she was devastated when he cheated on her.

Was it ever confirmed she actually knew that cheating had occurred?  I know she made the comment about how she thought he was having an affair because she never could get him at the office (when he was on leave and she would call, Dawn was taking messages and Don would call Megan from his home), but I was pretty sure she never knew about Sylvia. 

23 hours ago, Umbelina said:

So, in a way, I confess that when I watched Megan there, I was inherently more sympathetic to her story, because I'd watched it before, in real life.

I'm sympathetic to her as well.  She obviously had a big safety net in the form of Don's money, but we did kind of see her slowly falling apart over the fact she was getting nowhere.  The crazy behavior her agent described, and that she eventually had to go crawling to Harry, showed how far Megan had fallen. 

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, txhorns79 said:

Was it ever confirmed she actually knew that cheating had occurred?  I know she made the comment about how she thought he was having an affair because she never could get him at the office (when he was on leave and she would call, Dawn was taking messages and Don would call Megan from his home), but I was pretty sure she never knew about Sylvia. 

Hmm, I thought it was confirmed, but you could be right, maybe she just "knew" from his behavior and her own history with him, she was his secretary after all.

Paging my personal wiki on shows (ha) @sistermagpie

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Hmm, I thought it was confirmed, but you could be right, maybe she just "knew" from his behavior and her own history with him, she was his secretary after all.

LOL--at your service! Iirc, she never did find out about Sylvia. It was sort of a bait and switch--it seemed like eventually Don would get caught with Sylvia because she was right there, but when he was caught it was by Sally, not Megan. After that Megan finding out would have been anti-climactic. 

I remember thinking that season would end with Don's marriage getting blown up because of that affair because it started with Don and Pete both shitting where they ate and Pete got caught right away while Don got away with it. And that did happen somewhat, but in a much better way than I expected.

9 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I'm sympathetic to her as well.  She obviously had a big safety net in the form of Don's money, but we did kind of see her slowly falling apart over the fact she was getting nowhere.  The crazy behavior her agent described, and that she eventually had to go crawling to Harry, showed how far Megan had fallen. 

Me too. I mean, the thing with Megan is she doesn't do anything really bad--probably her at her worst are her moments of insecurity where she screws over some other woman, like when she steals her friend's idea to get Don to help her get the job with Butler shoes or when she sends Stephanie away with a check to get her away from Don. But those are hardly horrible offenses. 

She's really just unlucky and naive enough to throw herself into a marriage Don and be optimistic about it, even though she basically knew what kind of a husband he was. And she's got enough insecurity--the kind that seems to come from being a beautiful girl who often is just good at things right off so doesn't have a lot of endurance--to be really sensitive about rejection and vulnerable to the opinions of others. That was always going to make it hard if not impossible for her to have a good career as an actress. That part didn't come from Don, but it's not like he was good for her in that regard either. He did try to be supportive...or at least he tried not to hurt her. But Megan wasn't really the kind of specific person who could get something really positive from Don. 

[Roseanna]

On 8/6/2019 at 11:01 PM, sistermagpie said:

Me too. I mean, the thing with Megan is she doesn't do anything really bad--probably her at her worst are her moments of insecurity where she screws over some other woman, like when she steals her friend's idea to get Don to help her get the job with Butler shoes or when she sends Stephanie away with a check to get her away from Don. But those are hardly horrible offenses.

I agree. But in a way that's a problem.  I mean, people who were sometimes horrible like Pete, surprised us sometimes with being extremely good. Meghan didn't do anything particularly good or bad. Therefore she wasn't interesting enough.   

And even more, people who were often horrible like Betty, ended the story with dignity. Meghan's exit was her worst moment. 

[Roseanna]

Continueing:

Also, we didn't see Megan work to get roles in LA at all, only to live confortably and have parties and pay to Stephanie for not meeting Don. Nor did we see her with her agent - we only learned what her agent had said to Don. That perspective couldn't help to influence on the interpretation about Megan.