Anticipation for The Wheel of Time

[Glory]

On 10/15/2019 at 8:38 AM, DoctorAtomic said:

Yeah and then they ended with, 'oh, looks like the Aiel will just be out and out slaughtered. Thanks for all the fish!' 

Why bother at that point? No one thought to go in the other way ever this whole time? 

I think it ended a bit more ambiguously than that - especially since Aviendah and the Wise Ones knew that they had the ability to try to change the future from what she saw in the Rhuidean rings. 

Unless you're referring to the battle at Shayul Ghul in which tons of Aiel got murdered by Dark Hounds and Myrdraal. 

[DoctorAtomic]

No, I meant that. There wasn't any indication throughout the series to me that the Aiel were dying out or whatever, so it felt like Jordan had this idea and scratched out some sort of outline for a later story, so they just threw it in because it was the last book.

I just find it hard to believe that no one ever thought to walk through the stones backwards. It would have been cool if we knew this from book 5, so all the Wise Ones et al., knew they had to fight back the dark one and help Rand to prevent the end of the world, but also knew that it would be a hollow victory if they didn't get their shit together for after.

That's kind of the thing that bothers me. It's not as interesting that the good guys win the big end of the world battle; it's about what's going to happen after. That's why I found the final battle to fall really flat. It wasn't really a breaking of the world like the last time and it left a huge mess.

[Danny Franks]

On ‎10‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 7:25 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

No, I meant that. There wasn't any indication throughout the series to me that the Aiel were dying out or whatever, so it felt like Jordan had this idea and scratched out some sort of outline for a later story, so they just threw it in because it was the last book.

I just find it hard to believe that no one ever thought to walk through the stones backwards. It would have been cool if we knew this from book 5, so all the Wise Ones et al., knew they had to fight back the dark one and help Rand to prevent the end of the world, but also knew that it would be a hollow victory if they didn't get their shit together for after.

That's kind of the thing that bothers me. It's not as interesting that the good guys win the big end of the world battle; it's about what's going to happen after. That's why I found the final battle to fall really flat. It wasn't really a breaking of the world like the last time and it left a huge mess.

The Aiel weren't dying out, but the Wise Ones and Clans Chiefs knew that the prophecy of the Car'a'carn was that "He shall spill out the blood of those who call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and he shall break them as dried twigs, yet a remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live."

They already knew that it was a rather fatalistic prophecy, and that his arrival heralded the end of their culture. Not to the extent that Aviendha saw in the ter'angreal, of course. But that future she sees is after the Last Battle, and after the Bleakness that already saw thousands of Aiel abandoning their way of life. 

Jordan never spelled out explicitly what exactly he meant by 'spilling their blood as water on sand' but to me it always seemed clear that he meant most of the Aiel would die in the Last Battle. Now, did Sanderson do that justice? I would certainly be open to the argument that he didn't.

I think the huge mess left by the Last Battle was the only winning scenario available to Rand. He thought he could actually kill the Dark One, but the nature of this world meant that was impossible - there has to be a dark to balance the light, so the only thing he could do to actually win was to bind that darkness, and there has to be a cycle that can be repeated. Actually killing the Dark One would result in one of two things - the end of existence or the rise of a new Dark One to replace him (there's a theory that Padan Fain was being positioned for this by the Pattern, should Rand actually kill Shai'tan. And that's why Fain is killed so abruptly when he's no longer 'needed').

As for the epilogue, I was also incredibly disappointed that it was so short. I was so much more invested in the characters than I was in huge, action set pieces. I don't think Jordan would have abbreviated it to the extent Sanderson did. But Sanderson is a writer who does action far better than he does characters.

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't have a problem with the vision that most of the Aiel would die off due to Rand and the last battle. Ending the book with just everything kind of up in the air, is ok, but then only the Aiel have some future plot. It was just tacked on to me. Plus, it's incredulous that no one ever thought to walk backwards through them until right then.

Leaving it up in the air as to how they would assimilate after the battle is fine. There wasn't much about what they were going to do with the Seanchan afterwards either.

I'm not sure Rand seriously entertained kill the Dark One. There were plenty of conversations with Min and the librarian guy about the wheel. One of them, if not Rand himself flat out said, 'so there had to have been a time when there wasn't a bore at all.

Rand putting one over on Ish with Moiraine and Ny to undo the bore with Callandor was the only thing I actually liked about the end.

[wanderingstar]

I've not read The Wheel of Time series, but I've been asked by a friend who's a huge fan of the books to watch and tell her how it is. She loves the books so much, she is nervous about watching this series and having it disappoint her. 

So I am completely new to this story and world. 

Any thoughts on what I can expect?

[DoctorAtomic]

Since you don't have a point of comparison, I don't know what you're friend gets out of it. tbh, the series sports a massive amount of filler. Cutting out the tea stirring alone. I mean, one book covered six days and we had to wait a year for it. Even then, half of it was Dashiva going nuts. And I actually liked him. 

I really hope the tv show streamlines the overall plot, or at least seriously edits the side plots down. 

The good thing is, they have the complete series to work off. So for plotting, they already know if something seemingly minor actually will pay off big later. I think that will help. 

[Danny Franks]

8 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

I've not read The Wheel of Time series, but I've been asked by a friend who's a huge fan of the books to watch and tell her how it is. She loves the books so much, she is nervous about watching this series and having it disappoint her. 

So I am completely new to this story and world. 

Any thoughts on what I can expect?

Oh boy. Where to start? 

It's a big, expansive world, packed full of characters but it does have a more narrow narrative than Game of Thrones - you follow a principle group of characters and don't deviate too much from them, although characters are added and removed as the series progresses. And the structure is a more traditional epic fantasy of good vs evil, although there are plenty of characters who fit into a grey area between the two.

Magic is a major feature of the world, and that's where a lot of my fears lie - how to depict Channelling in a way that is convincing but not corny. Jordan went into a lot of detail about how it worked, where the power came from and the training required to wield it, and that will be difficult to put on the screen.

Another major feature of the world is the fact that women control magic. Men cannot use it without going mad and dying, and so are forbidden from doing so. This has created a female power base that exerts a similar influence on the world that the Catholic Church did in Medieval Europe - the leader of this magical sect of women has the power of the Pope when it comes to bossing monarchs and lords around, and so is hated and distrusted by a lot of people.

I also fear that too many compromises will have to be made to storylines and character development, to adapt the books to the screen. The casting has been mostly really good, in my opinion, but a lot of the usual suspects have cried foul at the diverse casting choices, so expect to hear plenty of complaining about that, and how some actors are "just wrong" for no specific reason.

[Black Knight]

On 4/5/2021 at 7:42 AM, Gillian Rosh said:

I've not read The Wheel of Time series, but I've been asked by a friend who's a huge fan of the books to watch and tell her how it is. She loves the books so much, she is nervous about watching this series and having it disappoint her. 

You're a good friend! I'm not sure that she will get what she's looking for from a non-reader; I suspect non-readers will be perfectly fine with the TV show and the arguments will be between readers who dislike how the books were adapted and readers who are okay with it. (In other words, GoT all over again.)

You might try asking your friend what are the things that are most important to her. Are there specific scenes she really wants to see, or is she more concerned that the casting be solid? Is she strict about adapting a book faithfully, or is she able to make allowances for the different medium? Some allowances, or a lot of allowances? This is not going to be a hyper-faithful adaptation, in many respects. The books have too many characters and subplots for them all to make it to the show; the middle books were full of filler that will certainly be dumped; I don't expect the exploration of the magical system to be anywhere near as deep or detailed as the books; the first season is apparently going to make a mystery out of something that we know the answer to early on in the first book; and of course one can expect some updating of stuff that was cringeworthy even in the 90s. Personally I'm really excited about the TV show exactly because I know it will not be an extremely faithful adaptation of an interesting but deeply flawed book series. All that filler...so much filler...

[DoctorAtomic]

8 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

Personally I'm really excited about the TV show exactly because I know it will not be an extremely faithful adaptation of an interesting but deeply flawed book series. All that filler...so much filler...

I've found this to be the prevailing opinion for a while. I don't think it will be any where near GoT levels of griping simply because the entire series is completed. 

[wanderingstar]

Thanks for all the helpful comments! 

 

One follow-up question: do we know if the first season will cover the first book, or will it go beyond that?

[Danny Franks]

4 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I've found this to be the prevailing opinion for a while. I don't think it will be any where near GoT levels of griping simply because the entire series is completed. 

And while the Sanderson-written finish to the series was... not quite what I'd hoped it would be, at least it was a proper ending based heavily on the notes that Jordan had left, and that long-completed last paragraph.

I think the difference between that and ASIOAF is that Wheel of Time fans were just so grateful to be getting that conclusion at all, while ASOIAF fans are growing ever more resentful that GRRM seems to feel no pressure to finish the series at all. The ending of the show was so lazily executed that I can't see how anyone was happy with it.

47 minutes ago, Gillian Rosh said:

One follow-up question: do we know if the first season will cover the first book, or will it go beyond that?

I haven't been keeping up the the announcements or speculation, but it seems like the first season might cover book one and a bit of book two. I don't see how they can possible cover the first two books in one season without cutting too much content.

[DoctorAtomic]

4 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

And while the Sanderson-written finish to the series was... not quite what I'd hoped it would be, at least it was a proper ending based heavily on the notes that Jordan had left, and that long-completed last paragraph.

Yeah I meant you have a 'show Bible proper' here. You can put together a more coherent television narrative and know what to cut out. Especially given the loose ends that were left. 

Or maybe something like emphasizing Demandred plotting more so he doesn't just pop up at the end out of nowhere. I wouldn't even mind if they put in Demandred = you know who because it was initially to be that way. 

[Danny Franks]

Rafe Judkins did a Q&A today on Instagram, which is transcribed here:

https://www.wotseries.com/2021/05/20/breaking-season-1-wrapped-season-2-greenlit-rafe-qa/

A couple of the most interesting points for me -

1. The character he's most excited to introduce in season two "starts with EL." I'm pretty excited about seeing her as well.

2.  They plan on keeping the menagerie aspect of the Trollocs, rather than making them conveniently similar looking, and the results are apparently impressing people.

And they've apparently done a rough plan for how the entire series would break down into seasons. I'd love to see that plan, just to see where they think the best places to put season breaks are. Because while all the books have big endings, there are also big, dynamic altering moments in the middle of books as well.

[DoctorAtomic]

Or they could pull the Big Moment in the penultimate episode. 

[Black Knight]

The first question to my mind is, how many seasons does their plan have?

[Danny Franks]

11 hours ago, Black Knight said:

The first question to my mind is, how many seasons does their plan have?

Well, Rafe Judkins said he didn't want Josha and Madeline to be 45 before the show is done so... less than twenty?

Realistically I'd think they could plan for about eight seasons. This is just off the top of my head, so it probably won't stand up to scrutiny - 

Season one ending with them leaving Fal Dara

Season two ending with Rand taking Callandor (though I'll be very disappointed if the Battle at Falme isn't the climactic event of a season)

Season three ending with the sneak attack on Caemlyn

Season four ending with the the girls escaping Ebou Dar

Season five ending with the Cleansing of the Taint

Season six ending with Egwene becoming Amyrlin

Season seven ending with Rand on top of Dragonmount

Season eight is all the Last Battle

They'll still have to cut loads of stuff (the entire Prophet storyline could go, as well as most of the Sea Folk stuff and the Shaido after Dumai's Wells). And I do think they might follow the Game of Thrones example of making the 'big' episode the penultimate one of each season, then have a quieter, summing up episode to end on.

[DoctorAtomic]

Please cut out the Shaido. 

[AnimeMania]

Casting news spoiler.

Spoiler

 

Amazon's The Wheel of Time Reportedly Casts Lews Therin for Season 1 Debut

According to the YouTube Wheel of Time news show WoT Up, Swedish actor Alexander Kalim has been cast as Lews Therin Telamon, "The Dragon", and he will speak in conlang (constructed language). He is believed to make an appearance in Season 1.

 

 

[Danny Franks]

So we'll get the prologue content, in some form, by the sound of it. I had my own idea of a really cool opening, which would revolve around the battle outside Tar Valon at the end of the Aiel War - showing the execution of Laman and the birth of a certain character, and seeing Moiraine and Suian as novices, hearing Gitara Sedai's Foretelling.

[Black Knight]

That would have been fun! But I suspect they really wanted to do some form of the prologue to begin the show, because a lot of readers would have been immediately upset not to at least have the openings match. If this were a show expected to depart almost entirely from the books, that would have been the way to go, but with this show it sounds like they really just want to change what doesn't work for a visual medium, what doesn't work in 2021, and later on in the show eliminate a ton of worthless filler that nearly everyone agrees was worthless filler. So, keeping the prologue for a show that wants to be a reasonably faithful adaptation makes sense.

[DearEvette]

Also if you are gonna talk about finding the Dragon Reborn it would be kinda nice to give some establishing context for who the OG Dragon was and why it is so important.

Edited September 11, 2021 by DearEvette

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't think they'll open the show the same as the book. I bet it will be a flashback after Moirane does some exposition after getting to Rand et al. You want a non book viewer to understand that one of them is actually the Dragon Reborn. 

Actually, I agree with the other comment that the show should open with the Foretelling. 

[staphdude]

I've only recently seen some of the Amazon promotional material and they make this out to be very different from the series I read. For me Moraine was an easy way to kick start the story but then she faded. With so many threads in the books they should be focused on Rand and the others from Emond's field. Then again maybe it is just marketing...

[DoctorAtomic]

To be fair, if this first season is largely following Eye of the World, Moraine is really the main character. I think that's where they're going. 

[Danny Franks]

I think it will be interesting to see what they do with Moiraine for the book two material, because she does disappear for much of it. I guess they can just sub her in for Verin, but the thing is, Moiraine has a reason for stepping back - she wants to let Rand feel like he's free and out from under her manipulation, while she of course sets up a lot of stuff beforehand to ensure he does what she wants.

That whole book is going to need a lot of adaptation to keep Moiraine's role important and to introduce some of the characters who haven't been introduced in season one.

For what it's worth, I think the promotional stuff is a little misleading and, while Moiraine is definitely the focal point of the first season, we'll see how important Rand and the other Emond's Fielders are pretty quickly.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Danny Franks

[Black Knight]

Out of the cast Rosamund Pike is the name and face people know. That's really all there is to it, I think. They're not concerned about appealing to the readers with the promotional materials, and I don't mean that in a bad way - I simply mean that they know that the readers are going to give the TV show a try regardless (and they expect that the readers will be pretty happy when they do watch). But the readers alone aren't enough; they need to get the non-readers to give this show a try.

And Moiraine is central enough in the first book that it's not an unfair representation that will make non-readers feel like there was a bait-and-switch. Besides, this was all done before with GoT, so nobody's really going to be surprised. Sean Bean was the name and face people knew, so he was all over promotional materials; meanwhile, the young no-name actors turned out to be playing very important characters.

[DoctorAtomic]

11 hours ago, Black Knight said:

They're not concerned about appealing to the readers with the promotional materials, and I don't mean that in a bad way - I simply mean that they know that the readers are going to give the TV show a try regardless (and they expect that the readers will be pretty happy when they do watch). But the readers alone aren't enough; they need to get the non-readers to give this show a try.

I wouldn't say they aren't 'concerned', but they're not making the show for hardcore readers, like they didn't for GOT. I agree you need to make a tv show that people want to watch. I am in no way a hardcore reader, and I am looking forward to how they're going to cut out all the nonsense and tell a compelling story. Similarly, I never read GOT, and it looked cool and had Sean Bean in it, so I gave it a try. I think that's a fair comparison. 

I don't know if I asked before, but I assume we're going to have episode threads for book readers and non-book? So far, it seems like we're al book readers here, but new viewers are going to be lost in about 5 seconds the way we're talking. 

[Black Knight]

We have a Book to Show thread for readers who want to compare the show with the books. I don't expect traffic to be enough to warrant two sets of episode threads, and book talk can overwhelm episode threads quickly. I'll re-evaluate if activity proves to be closer to GoT than, e.g., Shadow and Bone.

[Danny Franks]

50 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I don't know if I asked before, but I assume we're going to have episode threads for book readers and non-book? So far, it seems like we're al book readers here, but new viewers are going to be lost in about 5 seconds the way we're talking. 

I would think so, yeah. I'm going to want to talk about the changes that have been made, the foreshadowing and any of the prophecy stuff, without spoiling things for people new to the series. If there's not enough traffic to begin with, then a single thread that allows book talk would be fine too.

12 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Out of the cast Rosamund Pike is the name and face people know. That's really all there is to it, I think. They're not concerned about appealing to the readers with the promotional materials, and I don't mean that in a bad way - I simply mean that they know that the readers are going to give the TV show a try regardless (and they expect that the readers will be pretty happy when they do watch). But the readers alone aren't enough; they need to get the non-readers to give this show a try.

And Moiraine is central enough in the first book that it's not an unfair representation that will make non-readers feel like there was a bait-and-switch. Besides, this was all done before with GoT, so nobody's really going to be surprised. Sean Bean was the name and face people knew, so he was all over promotional materials; meanwhile, the young no-name actors turned out to be playing very important characters.

I really don't think many hardcore readers will mind Moiraine being framed as the main character at the start, because Moiraine is a very popular character in the series. Even people who claim to hate all Aes Sedai rarely have anything critical to say about her. The show will make her more sympathetic than the books, early on, because we won't be seeing her exclusively through the eyes of five mudfoot villagers who half-believe she's a Dark Friend. And her open manipulations of them will be understandable because we'll know what her big picture is, quite a bit earlier.

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

I'm going to want to talk about the changes that have been made, the foreshadowing and any of the prophecy stuff, without spoiling things for people new to the series. If there's not enough traffic to begin with, then a single thread that allows book talk would be fine too.

I think it's hard to not, given that we know what happens. Even funny things like pulling on the braids. 

[staphdude]

On 9/28/2021 at 4:13 PM, Danny Franks said:

For what it's worth, I think the promotional stuff is a little misleading and, while Moiraine is definitely the focal point of the first season, we'll see how important Rand and the other Emond's Fielders are pretty quickly.

Marketing this is really important but for me a series about the Dragon Reborn and his journey to the Final Battle should warrant greater focus on Rand et al

[DoctorAtomic]

To be fair, he's not really the Dragon Reborn until Ish goads him into yanking down Callandor. Up until then, one can question the reliability of Moraine as a narrator (unless the show the foretelling flashback). Either of the three guys could be the dragon. (non book) Viewers seeing Logain and the stories of men breaking the world is going to be a great reveal at the eye of the world. 

[Danny Franks]

46 minutes ago, staphdude said:

Marketing this is really important but for me a series about the Dragon Reborn and his journey to the Final Battle should warrant greater focus on Rand et al

I think there will be focus on him, which will increase as the show progresses. But RJ himself tried to hide the fact that Rand was the Dragon Reborn, until the end of TEOTW. It was obvious he was the big damn hero, but the times when he channels are fairly well hidden until the final chapters.

My suspicion is that the first trailer is hiding a lot of the Rand-centric stuff deliberately and we might get a second trailer that focuses on the Two Rivers characters more closely, but it won't be until the show actually airs that new viewers will be surprised by how central Rand is.

[DoctorAtomic]

50 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

It was obvious he was the big damn hero, but the times when he channels are fairly well hidden until the final chapters.

I totally forgot that. He heals the horse at one point or something like that. 

[Danny Franks]

55 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I totally forgot that. He heals the horse at one point or something like that. 

Yeah, he heals Bela when they're fleeing from the Two Rivers without realising it. Moiraine comments when she heals the horses later that Bela is actually less tired than the others.

I took this from the FAQ at Dragonmount.com, because I think it shows RJ's careful planning of Rand's awakening as a channeler and the sickness that channelers get when they first start using the One Power:

Quote

OP use: cleansing Bela: [TEOTW: 11, The Road to Taren Ferry, 125]

Reaction: light-headed during Baerlon encounter with the Children of the Light, [TEOTW: 15, Strangers and Friends, 186-190]

Time lapse: seven days.

OP use: Hitting Trolloc with the boom of Domon's boat. [TEOTW: 20, Dust on the Wind, 258-259]

Reaction: Mast/trapeze stunt on Bayle Domon's boat [TEOTW: 24, Flight Down the Arinelle, 301-303]

Time lapse : four days.

OP use: calling lightning to escape the inn in Four Kings [TEOTW: 32, Four Kings in Shadow, 407]

Reaction: fever/chills at the inn in Market Sheran. [TEOTW: 33, The Dark Waits, 423-426]

Time lapse: two days.

OP use: at the Eye of the World.

Reaction: Forgetfulness, others?

Time lapse: nearly instantaneous.

I don't know if the show will try to keep his channeling as subtle as this, or if they'll even include all his early channeling episodes.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Danny Franks

[DoctorAtomic]

This is apropos of absolutely ziltch. I'm just riffing, but I thought originally Taim was supposed to be Demandred, but Jordan changed it. I thought it was kind of a waste of someone who was supposed to be so top level in the last war. He was always 'doing something' until he appeared at the end with some sort of private army. It would be a nice narrative change if they went back to that for the show because otherwise, Taim was just some pissy bitch who went dark. I always thought both were a waste. 

[Jalyn]

48 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

This is apropos of absolutely ziltch. I'm just riffing, but I thought originally Taim was supposed to be Demandred, but Jordan changed it. I thought it was kind of a waste of someone who was supposed to be so top level in the last war. He was always 'doing something' until he appeared at the end with some sort of private army. It would be a nice narrative change if they went back to that for the show because otherwise, Taim was just some pissy bitch who went dark. I always thought both were a waste. 

It's been speculated that that switch will be made. I've never understood why it would make sense to have both Demandred and reincarnated Aginor in the black tower at the same time.