Tara

[lembergwatcher]

Tara Maclay. Shy and intelligent girl. The witch. Willow's love interest throughout two seasons of the show. Member of the Scooby Gang from late season 4 until final episodes of season 6. One of those Buffy's main protagonists, who perished (dunno exactly if it's right to call her main protagonists since Amber Benson's name appeared in the opening credits only once, but nevertheless) during the course of the series, which in case with Tara led to the chain of a very disturbing events...


Whenever the topic of Tara is brought up I myself recall this particular dialogue between Buffy and Xander in Family :
 

Quote

BUFFY: So ... what'd you get her?
XANDER: Huh?
BUFFY: Tara. You said you got a present already.
XANDER: Yeah, that was a tangled web of lies, sweetie. I'm not really sure what kind of thing she'd ... I mean, I don't really know her that well.
BUFFY: (nods) I know.
XANDER: (quickly) I mean, she's nice.
BUFFY: (quickly) Yeah! Yeah, nice ... nice. I-it's just, I-I sort of...
XANDER: I don't necessarily get her ... but she's really nice.
BUFFY: Yeah. There's ... just that thing.
XANDER: (agreeing) That thing.
BUFFY: That ... thing of not understanding-
XANDER: Half of what she says?
BUFFY: As for example. But she's super nice.
XANDER: You betcha.

BUFFY: Think there'll be a lot of Wiccas there, heavy Wiccan crowd?
XANDER: Well, that's sort of her deal. Her and Willow are all Wiccie. Swingin' with the Wiccan lifestyle.
BUFFY: Which is cool.
XANDER: Well, yeah.
BUFFY: I just hope we fit in, not awkward.
XANDER: With Willow it's like, she's got this ... whole new thing in her life. But she's still Willow, so I can always figure her out. But Tara, I just know she likes Willow, and she already has one of those.

Though fifteen years have passed, it's still sometimes hard - for me at least - to say whether I like that particular character or not. I was indifferent to Tara back when I saw her for the first time while watching season 4. I started to like her more in the following season (though her storyline in the only Tara-centric ep Family sucked). And I was somehow fond of her after my initial acquaintance with season 6 many years ago (Tara was kinda hot while chasing the vamps with a stake or chopping up demons in Bargaining, or saving them all in Normal Again). After rewatching the series years later though I accept I kind of fell prey to writers' manipulations, 'cause, you know, they wanted Tara to be season's new darling at the cost of the deliberate character assassination of my favorite main protagonists (they were moving in the direction of making Tara Buffy's new best friend instead of bad-bad Willow, I guess. Tara was Buffy's support-o-gal when it came to Spike, you know). As a result after seeing everything for the second time my perception of the witch #4 changed for the worse (although she's still far from being one of those characters I cannot stand). 

W/T was never my favorite couple of the show. At first they tried to portray them as too idyllic, too sweet, sugary almost. Kinda spiritual antithesis to Xanya down to earth rocky relationship. When Xander and Anya talked about sex or penises, Willow and Tara were all into magic, half-camels and constellations (and not into vaginas and menstrual periods). And when the problems arose in season 6, writers did everything to make it look like it was entirely Willow's fault the things didn't work as it was expected (the writing staff probably wanted to make life suck in that season in every single aspect, therefore they decided to screw that 'ship too eventually). Overall I've got a theory Joss' knowledge of lesbian relationships was in fact quite little hence some small unlikeliness...

Like I said, yours truly wasn't that touched with the whole Willara thing. I hated the way they portrayed T and W post-breakup scenes, that constant jumpiness in each other's presence reminded me of some inexperienced schoolgirls who'd just recently learned about sex from books (and weren't having it for nearly two years). And their "reconciliation" moment in Entropy just screamed fake-fake-fake IMO. OTOH Tara wasn't that much of a control freak when it came to Willow and... some of her childhood friends. I doubt we would see something like that at all if the plastic werewolf-y goodness was still around.

Anyway its somehow hard for me to write that much about Tara. There are moments I think she was an overrated character, there are moments I think quite the opposite. Her demise was tragic and she appeared to be a good person generally, but those fans who tend to treat her as the one with some sort of "absolute moral authority" usually send shivers down my spine.

Therefore I want to hear your thoughts regarding Tara. Was she overrated/underrated? Was she the group's "conscience" or sanctimonious piece of...? Was killing her at the end of the penultimate season that "necessary" in terms of the storyline or was it absolutely pointless? Did she deserve it and why? Unconventional thoughts are welcomed.

Edited September 8, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎08‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 2:27 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Tara Maclay. Shy and intelligent girl. The witch. Willow's love interest throughout two seasons of the show. Member of the Scooby Gang from late season 4 until final episodes of season 6. One of those Buffy's main protagonists, who perished (dunno exactly if it's right to call her main protagonists since Amber Benson's name appeared in the opening credits only once, but nevertheless) during the course of the series, which in case with Tara led to the chain of a very disturbing events...


Whenever the topic of Tara is brought up I myself recall this particular dialogue between Buffy and Xander in Family :
 

Though fifteen years have passed, it's still sometimes hard - for me at least - to say whether I like that particular character or not. I was indifferent to Tara back when I saw her for the first time while watching season 4. I started to like her more in the following season (though her storyline in the only Tara-centric ep Family sucked). And I was somehow fond of her after my initial acquaintance with season 6 many years ago (Tara was kinda hot while chasing the vamps with a stake or chopping up demons in Bargaining, or saving them all in Normal Again). After rewatching the series years later though I accept I kind of fell prey to writers' manipulations, 'cause, you know, they wanted Tara to be season's new darling at the cost of the deliberate character assassination of my favorite main protagonists (they were moving in the direction of making Tara Buffy's new best friend instead of bad-bad Willow, I guess. Tara was Buffy's support-o-gal when it came to Spike, you know). As a result after seeing everything for the second time my perception of the witch #4 changed for the worse (although she's still far from being one of those characters I cannot stand). 

W/T was never my favorite couple of the show. At first they tried to portray them as too idyllic, too sweet, sugary almost. Kinda spiritual antithesis to Xanya down to earth rocky relationship. When Xander and Anya talked about sex or penises, Willow and Tara were all into magic, half-camels and constellations (and not into vaginas and menstrual periods). And when the problems arose in season 6, writers did everything to make it look like it was entirely Willow's fault the things didn't work as it was expected (the writing staff probably wanted to make life suck in that season in every single aspect, therefore they decided to screw that 'ship too eventually). Overall I've got a theory Joss' knowledge of lesbian relationships was in fact quite little hence some small unlikeliness...

Like I said, yours truly wasn't that touched with the whole Willara thing. I hated the way they portrayed T and W post-breakup scenes, that constant jumpiness in each other's presence reminded me of some inexperienced schoolgirls who'd just recently learned about sex from books (and weren't having it for nearly two years). And their "reconciliation" moment in Entropy just screamed fake-fake-fake IMO. OTOH Tara wasn't that much of a control freak when it came to Willow and... some of her childhood friends. I doubt we would see something like that at all if the plastic werewolf-y goodness was still around.

Anyway its somehow hard for me to write that much about Tara. There are moments I think she was an overrated character, there are moments I think quite the opposite. Her demise was tragic and she appeared to be a good person generally, but those fans who tend to treat her as the one with some sort of "absolute moral authority" usually send shivers down my spine.

Therefore I want to hear your thoughts regarding Tara. Was she overrated/underrated? Was she the group's "conscience" or sanctimonious piece of...? Was killing her at the end of the penultimate season that "necessary" in terms of the storyline or was it absolutely pointless? Did she deserve it and why? Unconventional thoughts are welcomed.

Liked her a lot, she was sort of an unusual choice to join  the Scoobs, definitely a lover rather than a fighter although she becomes much more useful as we go along. I actually really got to like her best in s6 when she breaks up with Willow, becoming Buffy's confidante (and maybe more?), a genuine friend for Anya and the loving aunt for Dawn (in the comics Willow reveals that she and Tara discussed simply taking Dawn and leaving Sunnydale to establish their own family). 

[lembergwatcher]

7 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I actually really got to like her best in s6 when she breaks up with Willow, becoming Buffy's confidante (and maybe more?)

Well it was totally unnecessary to have T/W get back together in Entropy IMO, their romance was done and the scenes involving the two while they were still apart... I didn't know whether to laugh or cry, while watchin' them.  Tara definitely started slowly to fill the void in Buffy's life left after Slayer's alienation from her friends, Willow in particular.

Tara was "special" enough to know about Spike after all. I'm not sure it was that good for Buffy, because being the support-o-gal for things like that and pretending shagging with Spike (dark soulless creature) was somehow OK in Buffy's condition, wasn't what Buffy needed at the moment. For telling Buffy "it's okay" to have anything to do with mass murderer, 'cause, you know, "he's done a lot of good, and, and he does love you" (no, Tara, baby, he doesn't love Buffy. Obsession is not love) is like telling alcoholic or junkie (and Spuffy had all the signs of the true addiction IMO, as Buffy herself admitted in Dead Things: "He's everything I hate. He's everything that ... I'm supposed to be against. But the only time that I ever feel anything is when ...") it's perfectly normal to drink yourself to death or slowly kill yourself by doing drugs. If Spuffy went any further than what we saw in those abominable episodes of season 6, everything would end up literally with Buffy's  demise.

Edited September 9, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

6 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Tara was "special" enough to know about Spike after all. I'm not sure it was that good for Buffy, because being the support-o-gal for things like that and pretending shagging with Spike (dark soulless creature) was somehow OK in Buffy's condition, wasn't what Buffy needed at the moment.

Yeah, I think I once came up with four different ways Tara could have been supportive without going all the way to "he's done a lot of good, and, and he does love you".  Everything from "It doesn't have to mean anything" to "I trust your judgment" would have been better than this full-throated endorsement.

And "he does love you"?  How the heck would Tara know, exactly?  She's barely ever even seen Spike and Buffy together, I don't think.  Just when they were telling off her relations at the end of Family, IIRC.  And the end of S5, but she was brain-sucked then.  Hardly the best judge, I wouldn't think.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Yes, Tara's reaction was yet another episode in the endless series of Scoobs losing their damned minds when the topic of Spike came up. Not only she went way too far in her support as Spike as a boyfriend (she had no idea what Buffy and Spike's relationship was like, after all) but she was hilariously blasé about the potential danger - "A soulless vampire can now hurt Buffy? Danger? What danger? He is harmless. I have read the scripts".

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

How the heck would Tara know, exactly?

Good point. And what I find quite disturbing about Tara's attitude is that "he does love you" came not long after Buffy told Tara Spike could hurt her "without his head exploding" earlier in the ep. How on earth does physical abuse conform to the definition of "love"?

And what I "love" even more about Tara's judgement in that particular situation was her initial assumption about meeting Buffy at the Doublemeat Palace: "What did Willow do now? Did she ... she hurt anyone?" If Tara herself was the saint, that's one thing, but after Blind Cadria and stuff the girl could give her ex-lover some benefit of the doubt... 

[lembergwatcher]

5 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Tara's reaction was yet another episode in the endless series of Scoobs losing their damned minds when the topic of Spike came up.

It was even more hilarious in that case, given that Tara's attitude towards Spuffy went from "She's nuts!" after hearing Anya's words about Buffy boinking Spike in Intervention to "He does love you" after hearing that Captain Peroxide could hurt Buffy despite the chip in Dead Things. Some case of mass hypnosis I guess.

[Halting Hex]

19 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

"What did Willow do now? Did she ... she hurt anyone?" If Tara herself was the saint, that's one thing, but after Blind Cadria and stuff the girl could give her ex-lover some benefit of the doubt... 

Well, I've written books about this, it feels, so no need to do that again.  But I'm just going to say that I get very annoyed for just assuming that Buffy's coming to talk to her about Willow (aren't they supposed to be friends, generally? Why can't Buffy just be missing her friend? Or maybe about Dawn, whom Tara used to co-parent, after all?) and that it's about "a problem".  Way to pre-judge Willow there.

I totally wanted Buffy's next line (after she clarifies that it's not about Willow, after all) to be "How about those Knicks?" Oh, well,

Edited September 9, 2018 by Halting Hex

[illdoc]

42 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

totally wanted Buffy's next line (after she clarifies that it's not about Willow, after all) to be "How about those Knicks?"

They're in California...it'd be Lakers, not Knicks.

[Melancholy]

On 9/7/2018 at 9:27 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Anyway its somehow hard for me to write that much about Tara. There are moments I think she was an overrated character, there are moments I think quite the opposite. Her demise was tragic and she appeared to be a good person generally, but those fans who tend to treat her as the one with some sort of "absolute moral authority" usually send shivers down my spine.

Therefore I want to hear your thoughts regarding Tara. Was she overrated/underrated? Was she the group's "conscience" or sanctimonious piece of...? Was killing her at the end of the penultimate season that "necessary" in terms of the storyline or was it absolutely pointless? Did she deserve it and why? Unconventional thoughts are welcomed.

I say "sanctimonious piece of..." I also don't believe that she ever loved Willow- even though I believe that Willow deeply loved Tara. Tara frequently seemed exhausted by or even repulsed by Willow being Willow- energetic, inventive, brilliant, sarcastic, questioning of rules and structures, inclined to talk about her feelings and work them out through discussion. I LOVE all of that about Willow. Still my favorite TV character of all time. So, Tara was just a failure of a love interest on that very elemental level. 

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, illdoc said:

They're in California...it'd be Lakers, not Knicks.

Or the Clippers for that matter (although the early Lamar Odom-era Clippers were…not good), but I always like the sound of "Knicks" here because it's just the one syllable and yet you have two "k"-sounds.  

("K'-sounds are funny, as The Sunshine Boys told us.  R.I.P., Doc Simon.)

[Halting Hex]

On 9/7/2018 at 6:27 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Was killing her at the end of the penultimate season that "necessary" in terms of the storyline or was it absolutely pointless?

Well, it was "pointless" because W/T were broken up already and there's really no reason for Tara to simply not have left town after Tabula Rasa (she doesn't really stay in touch with the rest of the gang), so you can say that the reconciliation/death are just cheap emotional manipulation, and the whole episode is just there to provoke the "drama" that was "Dark"!Willow…

…but then, Tara's entire purpose was to draw Willow deeper into the magic (I believe the writing staff [Joss?] is even on record about this), so why should her demise be any less a plot device than the rest of her existence?

50 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

I say "sanctimonious piece of..."

I've said that but IMO it's honestly more "dogmatic" than "sanctimonious".  "Wiccans took an oath!", to quote the girl herself.

Which makes her a terrible fit for Willow, IMO:

54 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Tara frequently seemed exhausted by or even repulsed by Willow being Willow- energetic, inventive, brilliant, sarcastic, questioning of rules and structures, inclined to talk about her feelings and work them out through discussion.

Exactly.  Tara may be stuttery, but she wants to close down the discussions that Willow wants to have.  It's a very black and white world she lives in.  Heck, she doesn't even want to go on the internet because of people's poor spelling.  (Which annoys me as well, but that's a baby/bathwater scenario if I've ever seen one.)

I've written before that I could pair the four young leads in any combination:  Buffy/Willow and Xander/Cordelia work as pairs because they complement each other, they make each other grow, the whole becoming greater than the sum of the parts.  Buffy/Cordelia and Xander/Willow work because of the shared history, whether it's growing up together (W/X) or having been that girl, too (B/C).  And when you do Buffy/Xander and Willow/Cordelia that works because the couples fit psychologically: B/X put their head down and try and let everything slide off of their shoulders, but Willow and Cordelia have an almost pathological Need to Know, to catalogue the universe. "Gotta keep asking the big old questions when you're blessed with this girl's thirst for knowledge", as Willow herself says in Revelations.  (Granted that Cordy's "thirst for knowledge" is more about who's cool or fashionable, but even so.)

But Tara brings none of that to the table.  She's still a stranger to Willow, she doesn't seem to be expanding her world in any ways except the most obvious (and she doesn't like Willow doing more magic and there's billions of other girls out there) and, as noted, she doesn't seem to appreciate "Willow being Willow".  Oz had an affection for Willow's "busy" brain. (Not that this kept him loyal, but I digress.). Tara?  Not so much, it appears.

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

I LOVE all of that about Willow. Still my favorite TV character of all time. So, Tara was just a failure of a love interest on that very elemental level. 

Yes, and yes, and sadly yes.  But JMO to all of that, of course.

[Joe Hellandback]

22 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Well it was totally unnecessary to have T/W get back together in Entropy IMO, their romance was done and the scenes involving the two while they were still apart... I didn't know whether to laugh or cry, while watchin' them.  Tara definitely started slowly to fill the void in Buffy's life left after Slayer's alienation from her friends, Willow in particular.

Tara was "special" enough to know about Spike after all. I'm not sure it was that good for Buffy, because being the support-o-gal for things like that and pretending shagging with Spike (dark soulless creature) was somehow OK in Buffy's condition, wasn't what Buffy needed at the moment. For telling Buffy "it's okay" to have anything to do with mass murderer, 'cause, you know, "he's done a lot of good, and, and he does love you" (no, Tara, baby, he doesn't love Buffy. Obsession is not love) is like telling alcoholic or junkie (and Spuffy had all the signs of the true addiction IMO, as Buffy herself admitted in Dead Things: "He's everything I hate. He's everything that ... I'm supposed to be against. But the only time that I ever feel anything is when ...") it's perfectly normal to drink yourself to death or slowly kill yourself by doing drugs. If Spuffy went any further than what we saw in those abominable episodes of season 6, everything would end up literally with Buffy's  demise.

I think you're over-egging things, Spike was Buffy's one addiction, she ditched the booze and Willow was the druggie. Buffy turned to Tara because she was someone she trusted and she was the relative outside in the group. Frankly Spike loves Buffy as much as he's able to.  

12 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Yes, Tara's reaction was yet another episode in the endless series of Scoobs losing their damned minds when the topic of Spike came up. Not only she went way too far in her support as Spike as a boyfriend (she had no idea what Buffy and Spike's relationship was like, after all) but she was hilariously blasé about the potential danger - "A soulless vampire can now hurt Buffy? Danger? What danger? He is harmless. I have read the scripts".

No, this was a tough choice for Tara, Spike hurt Buffy but S&M shenanigans aside shows no sign of actually harming her. 

12 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

It was even more hilarious in that case, given that Tara's attitude towards Spuffy went from "She's nuts!" after hearing Anya's words about Buffy boinking Spike in Intervention to "He does love you" after hearing that Captain Peroxide could hurt Buffy despite the chip in Dead Things. Some case of mass hypnosis I guess.

Or she knows that this might be something Buffy needs after being resurrected? For which she is partly responsible and feels guilty about? 

[lembergwatcher]

58 minutes ago, nosleepforme said:

I think she just sees in how much pain Buffy is and tries to calm her down by being empathetic instead of being judgmental

Maybe. But I don't think we can call telling person who's obviously in serious trouble mere what she wants to hear "empathy".

 

1 hour ago, nosleepforme said:

she was loyal and supportive

Well, she was. Time after time. Though Willow appeared to be much more supportive in Family than Tara seemed to be in any episode from season 6. It never ceases to amaze me how people repeatedly state that "Willow had to suffer the consequences for her actions in All the Way/Tabula Rasa and beyond", while choosing to ignore the fact that Tara suffered no consequences for Blind Cadria. Furthermore the Scoobs stood up for her and she had her "best birthday" afterwards. Therefore I expected more understanding from Tara when it came to all things Willow-related.  

[Jack Shaftoe]

1 hour ago, nosleepforme said:

Honestly, Tara knew that Spike loved Buffy. He took care of Dawn for a whole summer even after Buffy had died. If that's not a recognizable sign of love, especially for a vampire without a soul, I don't know what is.

There are millions and millions of domestic abusers who honestly believe they love the victims of their abuse. Tara of all people should know that perfectly well, given her own abusive family. Spike's love for Buffy or lack there of is rather negligible factor when assessing the danger he posed for her life, IMO. And, as mentioned already mere months earlier Tara's first reaction to the news of Buffy having sex with Spike was "She is nuts".

Quote

I think she just sees in how much pain Buffy is and tries to calm her down by being empathetic instead of being judgmental, which i think is the trait of a really good friend.

This doesn't require the pathetically illogical jump in logic to "He is a good man". Tara could easily have been sympathetic and concerned for Buffy's safety at the same time. This isn't some run of the mill bad boy we are talking about here, it's a guy who has murdered thousands and taken great pleasure doing it. In real life terms, do you think one should support her cop dating say a mob hitman, even if said hitman claims to love the cop? The very idea is absurd, isn't it?

Quote

Time after time. Though Willow appeared to be much more supportive in Family than Tara seemed to be in any episode from season 6. It never ceases to amaze me how people repeatedly state that "Willow had to suffer the consequences for her actions in All the Way/Tabula Rasa and beyond", while choosing to ignore the fact that Tara suffered no consequences for Blind Cadria. Furthermore the Scoobs stood up for her and she had her "best birthday" afterwards.

Tara's spell wasn't intended to harm anyone, the Scoobs have never been particularly concerned about such incidents (see B, B and B or Something Blue). And Willow was given a second chance for her first mind-wipe which she promptly blew by turning to mind-wiping again. If Tara had cast a Blind Cadria spell again in the very next episode, I doubt Willow and the rest would have been quite as forgiving.

Quote

Exactly.  Tara may be stuttery, but she wants to close down the discussions that Willow wants to have.  It's a very black and white world she lives in.  Heck, she doesn't even want to go on the internet because of people's poor spelling.

How exactly does she live in a very black and white world? She tolerates Spike and Anya (entirely too much, if you ask me), she eventually got back together with Willow, she did participate in the resurrection spell, etc. I really don't think she is nearly as dogmatic as you claim. The real problem to me is that the writers had absolutely no idea how magic was supposed to work in their world and made stuff up as they went along, so everyone involved in spell-casting ended up looking as incompetent fool who changed their opinions from one episode to the next because the plot required it. But since I refuse to hate Willow for all the OOC crap she did in S6, I also don't blame Tara or Giles for their wildly varying opinions on the subject of magic because it's such a clear example of plot overriding characterisation. Hell, even Spike suffered from it, going from blithely helping Dawn cast a resurrection spell to preaching against magic in general a few months later.

Overall, I love Tara even though I am aware how little actual characterization she got. I am still bitter she had so little interaction with Xander and that her backstory made absolutely no sense but I never for a second doubted her love for Willow and her overall goodness and empathy.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Jack Shaftoe

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Tara's spell wasn't intended to harm anyone, the Scoobs have never been particularly concerned about such incidents

Well, kids playing with matches do not always intend to burn the house down. And how exactly making the group of people investigating/fighting demonic activity unable to see the demons could be perceived as "harmless"? And how do we now Tara's spell wasn't intended to harm anyone? Because Tara said so? Willow for her part didn't want to hurt anyone either. She just wanted her friends to forget about some bad stuff, be happy and all unicorns and rainbows. Then again the Scoobs weren't particularly concerned about 121-years-old bleached creep "babysitting" 15-years-old Dawn or 1000-plus something-years-old demon boinking Xander.

Edited September 10, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Chaos Theory]

First off I am a HUGE Willow and Tara shipper but then I was also a HUGE Willow and Oz shipper.  They both maser her happy.  That being said if the only reason the show brought back Tara and Willow was to kill Tara off to make Willow The Big Bad then that was the biggest mistake the  show ever made in my opinion.    I always thought Tara brought out the good on Willow but also the darkness.  I think the major issue looking back was that she didn’t really have a story of her own.  I am not sure if it I am making excuses for a show that was written twenty (wow really!) years agony. Still Willow and Tara do hold a place in my heart but I am not sure if Tara ever had a personality outside of her relationship written on her own.

[Halting Hex]

3 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Tara knew that Spike loved Buffy. He took care of Dawn for a whole summer even after Buffy had died.

Why couldn't that have been about Dawn herself, rather than Buffy?  He'd bonded with the "nibblet" even when he and Buffy were on less-than-pleasant terms, he felt bad that her mum had died, he tried to help her with the resurrection spell, and then her big sis goes and decides she'd rather go tower-diving than "live in this world".  Why should his caring for Dawn be necessarily about Buffy, exactly?

(I mean, we know that Buffy entered into it, sure.  But Tara wasn't up on top of the tower to hear Spike tell Doc "I made a promise to a lady", so…And Tara wasn't at the Summers house for the "I know that I'm a monster, but you treat me like a man" scene, either.)

[Joe Hellandback]

23 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Honestly, Tara knew that Spike loved Buffy. He took care of Dawn for a whole summer even after Buffy had died. If that's not a recognizable sign of love, especially for a vampire without a soul, I don't know what is. I don't think she's accepting of Buffy's affair of Spike by the way, I think she just sees in how much pain Buffy is and tries to calm her down by being empathetic instead of being judgmental, which i think is the trait of a really good friend.

 

I always loved Tara, because I could relate to her shyness in the early episodes, I think I was pretty much like her for a certain amount of time and I loved how her relationship with Willow slowly developed. I think what made Tara such a great character is that she was loyal and supportive, very empathetic and rarely judged anyone even if they made bad decisions. There is also just a certain amount of warmth to her that is a very nice contrast to the other characters.

 

Tara's death.... I will always understand it from a narrative standpoint, but to this day I think that it was the wrong choice. For once, I thought it was lame to kill her off just when she was developing into more than just Willow's partner. Season six saw her finally get some growth and agency beyond the relationship, she started standing up for herself and others and be more confident, she finally started developing a closer friendship with Buffy. I think there was still a lot left unexplored with her character and there was the potential for more. Secondly, I hated how her death was mostly motivated by plot to turn Willow evil. When Jenny Calendar died, they gave you time to really feel the emotions that the characters were going through and the impact on her death was emotional and was really felt. In Tara's case, I just felt like they never really gave the audience the time to grieve, because they had to bring Willow from point A to point B, so the pain of her death was not felt as much in the episodes after her death. I mean, it's kind of ironic since Giles does also seek out revenge in "Passion", but it's so much more emotional and done so much better, because it is based in character and because they are not forcefully trying to turn him into a big bad who destroys the world. Willow's response to Tara's death is supposed to be so emotional and painful and Alyson Hannigan is so great at crying and being sad, but because she turned crazy/bad right away, I just never really felt her pain as much as Giles'. 

To my mind Spike had a yen for Dawn because she was the closest thing he had to Buffy (and Joyce?). Tara was the character universally adored and that's why it was such a sucker punch when she died, as Joss says, not what we want, what we need. I remember watching it at a convention for the first time and people wept openly. 

22 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Maybe. But I don't think we can call telling person who's obviously in serious trouble mere what she wants to hear "empathy".

 

Well, she was. Time after time. Though Willow appeared to be much more supportive in Family than Tara seemed to be in any episode from season 6. It never ceases to amaze me how people repeatedly state that "Willow had to suffer the consequences for her actions in All the Way/Tabula Rasa and beyond", while choosing to ignore the fact that Tara suffered no consequences for Blind Cadria. Furthermore the Scoobs stood up for her and she had her "best birthday" afterwards. Therefore I expected more understanding from Tara when it came to all things Willow-related.  

Forgiveness for all, which of the Scoobs hasn't kept a deep dark secret in their time? 

21 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Well, kids playing with matches do not always intend to burn the house down. And how exactly making the group of people investigating/fighting demonic activity unable to see the demons could be perceived as "harmless"? And how do we now Tara's spell wasn't intended to harm anyone? Because Tara said so? Willow for her part didn't want to hurt anyone either. She just wanted her friends to forget about some bad stuff, be happy and all unicorns and rainbows. Then again the Scoobs weren't particularly concerned about 121-years-old bleached creep "babysitting" 15-years-old Dawn or 1000-plus something-years-old demon boinking Xander.

Remember Spike couldn't hurt Dawn and was strong enough to protect her, even Buffy trusted him with her. Plus Xander needed a date for the prom. 

[Joe Hellandback]

21 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

First off I am a HUGE Willow and Tara shipper but then I was also a HUGE Willow and Oz shipper.  They both maser her happy.  That being said if the only reason the show brought back Tara and Willow was to kill Tara off to make Willow The Big Bad then that was the biggest mistake the  show ever made in my opinion.    I always thought Tara brought out the good on Willow but also the darkness.  I think the major issue looking back was that she didn’t really have a story of her own.  I am not sure if it I am making excuses for a show that was written twenty (wow really!) years agony. Still Willow and Tara do hold a place in my heart but I am not sure if Tara ever had a personality outside of her relationship written on her own.

I would disagree on that one, my favourite phase for Tara was actually when she broke up with Will and we see her blossom, not least in her relationship with Buffy and Dawn and saving the day in Normal Again. 

[lembergwatcher]

3 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Remember Spike couldn't hurt Dawn and was strong enough to protect her, even Buffy trusted him with her. Plus Xander needed a date for the prom.

Well, Spikey couldn't hurt Dawn himself. Doesn't mean someone else couldn't do it on his order (he threatened to bring Faith to kill 'em all in season 4, remember). And though he was strong enough to protect Dawnie from demons or vamps, he was useless if he had to deal with humans (Initiative's surgeons knew their job). If, say, the Knights of Byzantium got to Dawn first, Spike won't be able to do anything... Then again, Spike could seduce Dawnie (the girl had a thing for him in Crush IIREC). As for Buffy, she could leave Dawn in Spike's care in one ep and then revoke his invitation to Revello Drive in the next. Not a point in favor of trusting Spikey.

As for Xander [sorry for some OT here], you know, he wanted a prom date, sure, but he didn't need one. Is there some specific law in California that requires every single student to attend the proms? It wasn't the matter of life and death, but a simple choice. No date for the prom = no go to the prom. Why would he go in here? To watch Willow with Oz or Cordelia with Wesley? Either stay at home or help Buffy to take care of those hellhounds. But attending the prom with a former vengeance demon??? No, no and no.

Edited September 11, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Melancholy]

On 9/10/2018 at 7:45 AM, Jack Shaftoe said:

How exactly does she live in a very black and white world? She tolerates Spike and Anya (entirely too much, if you ask me), she eventually got back together with Willow, she did participate in the resurrection spell, etc. I really don't think she is nearly as dogmatic as you claim. The real problem to me is that the writers had absolutely no idea how magic was supposed to work in their world and made stuff up as they went along, so everyone involved in spell-casting ended up looking as incompetent fool who changed their opinions from one episode to the next because the plot required it. But since I refuse to hate Willow for all the OOC crap she did in S6, I also don't blame Tara or Giles for their wildly varying opinions on the subject of magic because it's such a clear example of plot overriding characterisation. Hell, even Spike suffered from it, going from blithely helping Dawn cast a resurrection spell to preaching against magic in general a few months later.

Overall, I love Tara even though I am aware how little actual characterization she got. I am still bitter she had so little interaction with Xander and that her backstory made absolutely no sense but I never for a second doubted her love for Willow and her overall goodness and empathy.

That all works with dogma. Tara follows Leaders. Sometimes it's Leader Wiccans who took an oath, sometimes it's the commanders of her gang. However, we never see her actively decide on a complex issue based on her own internal value structure. Buffy and Giles are the Leaders of the gang. They signaled that Spike/Anya were welcome and Tara welcomes them accordingly. By S5 for Anya and certainly by S6 for Spike, it was more transgressive and rebellious to really call them out for what they were. Tara follows Oaths taken thousands of years ago or direct instructions on how to make a light spell. With the resurrection. Tara was in a Catch-22. Willow was the Leader of the Scoobies. However, Willow was transgressing against prior Wiccan leaders. Tara decides to support the resurrection by picking the leader next to her. 

XANDER: It's just ... (fidgets nervously) It feels wrong.
TARA: It is wrong. (Willow looks surprised) It's against all the laws of nature, and practically impossible to do, but it's what we agreed to. If-if you guys are changing your minds-
WILLOW: Nobody's changing their minds. Period.
XANDER: Excuse me? Who made you the boss of the group?
ANYA: You did.
TARA: You said Willow should be boss. (Willow moves away)  

This is how Tara thinks about stuff. I really can't think of anything more dogmatic than for Tara to justify the resurrection spell because that's what they agreed to in the past even though it's "wrong." As Cordelia would say, she’s a sheep. 

[lembergwatcher]

14 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Tara follows Leaders

That's a very good point actually. Some parts of that conversation between W, X, T & A in Bargaining make me cringe to this day. You either believe something is dead wrong and can have consequences ("it's against all the laws of nature" means "I smell retribution is coming") and try not to engage in that kind of stuff, or you're totally OK with everything and help without hesitation. The resurrection was a very serious thing to do and if Tara had a clue what the price would be, she could at least try to prove her point and not follow Willow's lead solely on the grounds of her girlfriend's current status at the group and her desire to bring Buffy back.  Some psychiatrists argue such kind of ambivalence is a sign of schizophrenia. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

This is how Tara thinks about stuff. I really can't think of anything more dogmatic than for Tara to justify the resurrection spell because that's what they agreed to in the past even though it's "wrong." As Cordelia would say, she’s a sheep. 

An actual dogmatist would not agree to do the resurrection spell. The reason is not "because they agreed to in the past". I mean, why did they agree in the past in the first place? Clearly Tara's principles on the ever shifting laws of magic aren't as unbending as people claim. Resurrection is bad but sometimes there are no good choices, that was Tara's position to me. Resurrecting Buffy is better than slowly being overran by whatever the Hellmouth throws at them. Saying that she did it just to obey Willow, never mind she has no problem disagreeing with Willow on many other occasions is not something I can get behind. The Scooby Gang leadership structure was never rigid enough to follow the "don't dare to question the leader model", not even in the nonsensical days of General Buffy in season 7. Same with her toleration of Spike and Anya - everyone tolerated them for meta reasons, even the freaking Watchers Council didn't bother trying to stake Spike in Checkpoint.

[Halting Hex]

3 hours ago, Melancholy said:

Willow was the Leader of the Scoobies. However, Willow was transgressing against prior Wiccan leaders. Tara decides to support the resurrection by picking the leader next to her. 

Also, Willow was the one providing Tara with "Willow-hand".  Apparently, Willow was real good at making Tara "cum-plete".  Girl's always been a good learner, it appears. ;)

[Joe Hellandback]

14 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Well, Spikey couldn't hurt Dawn himself. Doesn't mean someone else couldn't do it on his order (he threatened to bring Faith to kill 'em all in season 4, remember). And though he was strong enough to protect Dawnie from demons or vamps, he was useless if he had to deal with humans (Initiative's surgeons knew their job). If, say, the Knights of Byzantium got to Dawn first, Spike won't be able to do anything... Then again, Spike could seduce Dawnie (the girl had a thing for him in Crush IIREC). As for Buffy, she could leave Dawn in Spike's care in one ep and then revoke his invitation to Revello Drive in the next. Not a point in favor of trusting Spikey.

As for Xander [sorry for some OT here], you know, he wanted a prom date, sure, but he didn't need one. Is there some specific law in California that requires every single student to attend the proms? It wasn't the matter of life and death, but a simple choice. No date for the prom = no go to the prom. Why would he go in here? To watch Willow with Oz or Cordelia with Wesley? Either stay at home or help Buffy to take care of those hellhounds. But attending the prom with a former vengeance demon??? No, no and no.

But by this stage Spike was devoted to Buffy, plus if he made Dawn 'hymenally challenged' as they said on Clueless Buffy would kill him for sure. Spike could fight Glory and at least run away with Dawn from the knights. 

 And yes, he needed one, Buffy's going with a vamp, Willow's going with a werewolf, Xander has an ex-demon, emphasis on he ex. 

12 hours ago, Melancholy said:

That all works with dogma. Tara follows Leaders. Sometimes it's Leader Wiccans who took an oath, sometimes it's the commanders of her gang. However, we never see her actively decide on a complex issue based on her own internal value structure. Buffy and Giles are the Leaders of the gang. They signaled that Spike/Anya were welcome and Tara welcomes them accordingly. By S5 for Anya and certainly by S6 for Spike, it was more transgressive and rebellious to really call them out for what they were. Tara follows Oaths taken thousands of years ago or direct instructions on how to make a light spell. With the resurrection. Tara was in a Catch-22. Willow was the Leader of the Scoobies. However, Willow was transgressing against prior Wiccan leaders. Tara decides to support the resurrection by picking the leader next to her. 

XANDER: It's just ... (fidgets nervously) It feels wrong.
TARA: It is wrong. (Willow looks surprised) It's against all the laws of nature, and practically impossible to do, but it's what we agreed to. If-if you guys are changing your minds-
WILLOW: Nobody's changing their minds. Period.
XANDER: Excuse me? Who made you the boss of the group?
ANYA: You did.
TARA: You said Willow should be boss. (Willow moves away)  

This is how Tara thinks about stuff. I really can't think of anything more dogmatic than for Tara to justify the resurrection spell because that's what they agreed to in the past even though it's "wrong." As Cordelia would say, she’s a sheep. 

But it's Tara who dumps Willow for her magic abuse and takes the Initiative with Spike/Buffy, she may be a submissive but she has her moments

9 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Also, Willow was the one providing Tara with "Willow-hand".  Apparently, Willow was real good at making Tara "cum-plete".  Girl's always been a good learner, it appears. ;)

As she was out first I wager it might be the other way around? 

[Halting Hex]

Well, people learn at different rates, after all.  We can't all be blessed with Willow's "thirst for knowledge"…and, uh, other things.  

Plus, Tara's own level of "mad skillz" are relatively irrelevant when T's considering whether Willow's worth breaking an oath or six over.  I mean, unless Tara has to steer Willow around the curves, every single time.  But I think Will's been working on her Lesbian Street Cred, at least a little bit.

[Joe Hellandback]

9 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Well, people learn at different rates, after all.  We can't all be blessed with Willow's "thirst for knowledge"…and, uh, other things.  

Plus, Tara's own level of "mad skillz" are relatively irrelevant when T's considering whether Willow's worth breaking an oath or six over.  I mean, unless Tara has to steer Willow around the curves, every single time.  But I think Will's been working on her Lesbian Street Cred, at least a little bit.

Well, she seems to get some tuition from 

Spoiler

Kennedy in s7?