S04.E07: The Initiative

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; So at last the truth! The Initiative set is indeed impressive and Spike's escape is daring, he's almost like Jaws in the Bond films, the audience starts rooting for him even when he's the bad guy. The fights also good and the Harmony/Spike scenes and Harmony/Xander scene is wonderful

The Bad; Not a great deal, strong ep

Best line; Buffy (to Walsh); "For someone who teaches human behaviour you might try showing some"

Shot; Buff uses a flare gun, odd to see her using a firearm of any kind. The Initiative seem to have more guns than NATO.

Tied up; Spike tied up but escapes.

Knocked out; Willow in the struggle with Riley and co.

Women good/men bad; The horrible scene where we think Spike is killing Willow. Of course, she then fights back, You go girl! Contrast that to Harmony who takes Spike back AGAIN after all he's done to her. She asks Xander why men just leave but of course by that stage Xander already has. Buffy is outraged at Riley's seeming chauvinism towards her. Parker's remark about Buffy is unforgivable although maybe he has a right to be bitter, he did try to apologise to her only for her to bash him over the head with a branch.

Jeez!; Walsh's remark to Willow about Oz is very harsh. For a moment your heart is in your mouth when you think Willow is lying dead behind Spike on the bed.

Kinky dinky; Buffy describes her top as 'slutty' but I don't think it is particularly. Unlike her top in the cafeteria which you can blatantly see down when she trips. Forrest eyes up the women in the cafeteria, the first blonde girl in the floral number in particular is undeniably HOT! Parker describes Buffy as 'Bunny in the sack'. You figure she must have gone easy on him? Forrest figures that Buffy and Xander are on their way to have 'Crazy naked sex'. Harmony comments that she can 'slap Spike around' a little if he likes it. Buffy dancing is also good although she's better with Faith.

Calling Captain Subtext; Doug Petrie describes the Initiative boys as a 'gay calender pin-up' and he's not wrong, you can imagine Jack from Will&Grace having it on his wall.

Spoiler

Ironically whilst most see a subtext between Riley and Forrest it's Baily Chase (Graham) who later comes out in real life. 

Petrie seems very keen on Marc Blucas in his commentary although he was equally as keen on the Faith/Buffy sapphic subtext. The whole Spike/Willow scene is one big impotence gag. Once again a vamp feeding is compared to a sexual act. Harmony comments that Buffy is just going to slap Spike around and that she can do that. Is that why Spike

Spoiler

falls in love with the Slayer? Spike refers to the Nazis conducting experiments on vamps which we'll see in 'Why we Fight'. 

When Spike finds Buffy on the computer he says 'Hello gorgeous". Hmmmmm. Will still has some insecurity left over from her wallflower days.

Guantanamo Bay; The whole idea of the Initiative is very 'War on Terror', it resembles Camp X-ray to a T. Of course this all takes place BEFORE 9/11

Scoobies to the ER; Thankfully not this week

Questions and observations; Spike likes the Sex Pistols, big surprise. Buffy likes cheese, a leftover from her day as a rat? Here we have Spike in the opening credits hinting that he's a regular from now on (by contrast it took

Spoiler

poor old Tara 3 seasons to get there and she only lasted 1 ep).

Giles comments that he should lock his door. Xander refers to the mobile infantry from Starship Troopers, Riley not unlike Johnny Rico in many ways. Spike is 126 which means he was born in 1873, making him a late Victorian (Angel is over 200 making him a Georgian). Note Doug Petrie named Grahme Miller after a Canadian friend of his and that it's Grahme who suggests that Buffy might be a little off because she's Canadian. Spike seems to use significant violence during his escape but maybe the chip hasn't really kicked in yet? Riley' shirt makes him look like he's from Star Trek.

Marks out of 10; 8/10

[lembergwatcher]

Quote

This episode reveals Oz's full name to be Daniel Osbourne.

And up until then fanfiction writers who explored Oz-centric or Willoz-related issues, tried desperately to figure it out. The variations I came across indicated Wolfboy's first name to be Oswald or Kenneth...

[Halting Hex]

On 8/4/2018 at 5:15 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

The whole Spike/Willow scene is one big impotence gag.

Yes, because Willow cheering up the vampire who was trying to rape, murder, and vampirize her is Just.So.Funny. Not to mention the part where she seeks sexual validation from him.  Meanwhile, she doesn't just float a pencil at Spike's back and dust him (as she did in an identical situation in Choices) for the excellent reason that…James has a contract.

It takes a lot to make the "Xander gets retconned into a slapfighting wuss" and "Buffy and Riley do a bad attempt at a screwball comedy on the park bench" scenes look good by comparison, but this succeeds.  Terrible, terrible episode, the excellence of the Riley/Willow scenes aside.

Worst episode of Season 4, bar only Living Conditions and possibly

Spoiler

Superstar

Character assassinations aside, what makes this ep so annoying is that it's so pointless.  Just a lot of running around to give us two pieces of information:  Riley's a commando, and Spike has a chip.  As David Hines wrote, "you could boil this down to 20 seconds and not lose a thing.  Which is probably exactly what will happen in the 'Previously on Buffy the Vampire Slayer' clip at the start of the next episode."

I once covered the entirety of this episode in a tag that could have been stuck on the end of Wild at Heart.  It consisted of, I think, no more than six lines, one of which was "Agent Finn, report".

3/10, and that only if I'm feeling generous.  After all, "a vague disclaimer is nobody's friend."

(Okay, "Always wondered what would happen if that bitch got some funding" is worth half a smile, even if I don't actually believe for a second that Spike ever had any thoughts along those lines.  But even so.)

[lembergwatcher]

On 26.08.2018 at 11:08 PM, Halting Hex said:

Yes, because Willow cheering up the vampire who was trying to rape, murder, and vampirize her is Just.So.Funny. Not to mention the part where she seeks sexual validation from him.  Meanwhile, she doesn't just float a pencil at Spike's back and dust him (as she did in an identical situation in Choices) for the excellent reason that…James has a contract.

Well, what can I say...

[lembergwatcher]

At least the whole Initiative concept serves as an explanation of who could have been responsible for guarding the Sunnydale Hellmouth before Buffy came to town. But the question is, how come Buffy didn't bump into Initiative commandos before enrolling in UC Sunnydale?

Spoiler

I mean the agency have been operating for years! And its history traces back to WW2.

[Halting Hex]

(Note:  This ended up running very long and mostly being concerned with the chronology of Season 3.  But it's based on information offered in this episode, so I figured that it's best to leave it here, rather than move it there and have to spoiler-cut vast swathes, I figure.  Either that, or I'm just lazy…)

Well, they've only recently achieved their current levels of tech, given that Spike is only Hostile 17, not Hostile 1335 or whatever.  And they don't even know whether the chip works as yet; Riley has to give a report on its success at the end of the episode.

So the fact that they haven't wandered the "five miles" into Sunnydale proper thus far (apparently) can't be too surprising.  It's a bit embarrassing that they were wandering around campus in The Freshman, though, and yet couldn't spot Sunday's gang as "cold ones". I guess they needed to calibrate/juice up the scanner that Graham uses here a bit.  (Assuming that it had even been invented back then.)

I'm guessing that the concert the Dingoes gave at Lowell House last year (Riley says the music that has Willow mopey at this party is "it's a tape of some bands from last year's party") happened while Willow and Oz were splits?  After all, if Willow had been to campus as good "groupie" girlfriend during S3, she would have known her way around easier in The Freshman (she wasn't lost like Buffy, but it was still obviously new to her; I mean, she hadn't even been to the library, after all) and if she'd been to a party at Lowell House she would have recognized Riley when they met in the bookstore.

(Unless Riley wasn't in the Initiative then, but he was a sophomore last year, and we know they recruit those, because that's what Forrest is this year. )

So while we pretty much know when this episode occurs (a bit before Thanksgiving but a while after Halloween; mid-to-late November), we don't know when Lovers Walk/The Wish happened, exactly.  It's a bit after Homecoming (early October, traditionally) and long enough that Buffy has gotten over Scott and the Scoobs (in Revelations) think she might have a new boyfriend (and Buffy is  at least willing to admit to "going out with" Faith…), but now we know that Oz was doing gigs in November without Will attending, it's more likely that it wasn't quite right up against Christmas (and thus Amends), either.

So if the couples are splitsville for a good chunk of time that makes for pleasant thoughts if you're anti-Bangel or -Willoz, but it also means less naughty Xillow-footsie and ear-kissage, if you're into that.  And no wonder Joyce is so interested in inviting Faith over for Christmas; if it's been over a month since Revelations and Joyce hasn't been hearing the sound of the floorboards squeaking from B/F "training" up in Buffy's room, she can only imagine how lonely it's been in that motel. Sigh.  (And bad Giles, for letting Faith spend all that time on "walkabout", but I digress…)

And to narrow it down more precisely, SAT tests are usually given the first week of a month, and the results come two weeks later.  So if Homecoming was in early October, then Band Candy would be early November, and Lovers Walk the middle of the month. It might seem a bit odd that Angel is inquiring after Scott Hope (in Band Candy) when in fact Buffy's been Hope-less for almost a month, but Angel only raises the subject once he and Buffy nearly get physical, and perhaps he was still regaining strength and too weak to have a "so…how's your boyfriend?" I-better-stop-this moment for most of October.  Besides, if BC did take place right after Homecoming, then that would mean that Willow is wondering if Buffy has a new "boyfriend" in Revelations barely two weeks after Buffy and Scott split.  Which, even for Willow, would be pushing it, IMO.

So if we posit that LW happens in mid-November, that leaves Oz "newly-single" in time to go jam with the Dingoes at Lowell House's 1998 Pre-Thanksgiving Bash.  (Must have been some 'do, if they paid for multiple live bands.  Here in 1999, they only have a recycled tape.  Maggie must really be dipping into the "petty cash" till to pay for all the shiny new blasters…) That may even be the party we see Oz somberly practicing for at the end of the episode, in the Bronze.  

Then Cordelia spends "a week" in the hospital (per Harmony, The Wish), while the Scoobs are being relatively miserable, despite the Sunday picnic that gives them a chance to kill the mucus demon in the park. (Willow is actually looking forward to begging Oz for forgiveness on Monday at school.  FFS, girl…have some self-respect!)  Since I don't think that Harmony would likely refer to the two-three days that school was open before Thanksgiving as Cordy missing a "week" of school, this means we're most likely looking at the Monday before Thanksgiving than the Monday after, here.  Which means the chronology goes something like this:

Saturday, October 31st:  SAT test taken.  Halloween that evening reverts to its traditional quiet nature, what with Ethan already having been captured, and the demons presumably sulking because of last year's failure (that asshole Spike, not understanding tradition!), not to mention poor Lurconis having died the night before…

(I'm assuming the Scoobs weren't conscripted for kiddie-chaperone duty this year was because it was such a disaster back in '97, as seen in Halloween. Still, it's a little odd there weren't any seasonal decorations at the Bronze, say.)

Monday, November 2nd:  post-SAT/candy awkwardness at school.  

Tuesday, November 3rd:  Election Day.  The Republicans lose four seats in the House but stay even in the Senate, retaining both chambers and ensuring that the impeachment/trial of Bill Clinton will continue.  The gang goes to celebrate the fact that they're too young to vote by attending the Dingoes' gig at the Bronze.  Willow and Xander act nervous around Oz and Cordelia.  Buffy comes pretty close to admitting that she and Faith are "dating".  Gwendolyn Post, Mrs., shows up.

Wednesday, November 4th:  Faith asks Buffy inconvenient questions about Buffy's ex.  Faith gets beaten up by Lagos.  (Not her night.) Xander and Willow make out in the stacks, Giles (likely) catches them, sending Xander scampering off to retrieve the Glove. He's beaten to the tomb, discovering that Angel's alive (!), Angel has the Enormously Powerful Weapon (!!), and Angel and Buffy are making with the Smoochy Time (!!!). Not a great night for him, either, but at least he didn't get beaten up.

Thursday, November 5th:  Intervention Day, after class.  Doesn't go so well.  Buffy kills Lagos.  Xander and Faith bond over the possibility of killing Angel.  Gwen finds out about Angel having the Glove, smacks Giles upside the head so hard that even the script is shocked he's still standing upright after that first blow.  (Takes a lot to put him in a concussion after all the resistance he's built up, I suppose.)  Everybody meets at Angel's, and everybody gets punched.  Even Willow.  (Bad Gwendolyn!  I hope Buffy cuts your arm off for that!)

Friday, November 6th:  Post-violence wrap-up at school.  Original end to that scene, deleted lines in bold:

Quote

WILLOW: The whole Angel thing is so weird.

GILES: Yes, well, we'll have to let that one unfold, won't we?

CORDELIA: Okay but when there's a big massacre who gets the I-told-you-so?

XANDER: You get the I-told-you-so.

CORDELIA: Just so we're clear…

Ah, Cordy.  Never stupid about Fang-face.

Spoiler

(Until after Pylea, sadly.)

Buffy and Faith break up.

Wednesday, November 11th:  The gang gets their SAT scores back.  Spike shows up, drunk off his ass.

Thursday, November 12th:  A double-bowling-date is arranged; Pez is exchanged.  Buffy discovers Giles packing for the woods (seems somebody's not exactly thrilled to have Angel back…can't imagine why…) and that her mom has already called up Giles about sending Buffy way out of town so Joyce can have Faith all to herself relax with Buffy out of danger. Willow and Xander worry about the date getting too hot to handle.

To be fair, who isn't turned on by rented shoes?

Spike gets even drunker.

Friday, November 13th (no wonder!):  Spike nearly burns to death (damn tease!)

Willow goes shopping, plans delusting.  Spell called on account of conscience. (In Xander-shaped form.)  Spike attacks.  Xander kicks his ass.  (Shhh!  He was very brave.)  Much terror, Xillow sweetness, and boring speeches written to cover for Juliet Landau's decision to drop out ensue.  Buffy and Angel decide to take relationship advice from Spike.  No, seriously.

A ridiculous plot-contrivance gives us the Cordy-on-a-Stick fakeout.  Sigh.  She spends the week in the hospital.  Oz and the Dingoes play at Lowell House.

Sunday, November 22nd:  The Three Musketeers mourn the 35th anniversary of the JFK assassination by having a picnic in the park.  Amy sees Cordelia at the mall that night, looking "scary".  (Per Willow, The Wish.)  Cordy goes home, listens to Xander's messages, unwittingly summons Anya. (Dammit, Cor!)

Monday, November 23rd:  Willow grovels, unsuccessfully.  Harmony pulls her little pranks on Cordelia.  (Literally a "little prank", as it involves Jonathan.)  Cordy bonds with Anya over how useless men are.  (CC comes off very lesbian in this episode.)  The gang goes to the Bronze, Cordy and Buffy nearly have a touching moment (while W/X are having the "no touching" moment inside), but a vampire ruins it.  Cordelia decides to blame Buffy for everything.  (Yep, still gay…)

Tuesday, November 24th:  Despite Anya's pleas that she focus her vengeance where it belongs (ie, Xander, "an utter loser"), Cordelia insists "I never would have looked twice at Xander if Buffy hadn't made him marginally cooler by hanging with him."  Anya is surprised (is this the first time she's done vengeance on a woman?  It's the '90s, girl…a little "experimentation" never hurt…) and gives Cordy what she wants, freedom from her Buffy obsession.  Wham, into the Wish!Verse!  Where Cordy promptly gets killed before day's end, pretty much begging for Buffy and saying that things were better when Buffy was around, etc.  Poor baby!

We spend another day in the Wish!Verse, but when Giles breaks the pendant, we're right back to Tuesday, so…

December appears to be uneventful, so…

Monday, December 21st:  Buffy runs into Angel while they're out shopping.  They have an annoying telepathic dream that night.

Tuesday, December 22nd:  Buffy asks Willow what she's doing for Christmas, apparently unaware that Hanukkah ends at sunset. See, Will, this is why Ira and Sheila don't want you hanging around that shiksa…

But after that, lots of making up ensues.  So it appears to be roughly 40 days' time apart for W/O, a little longer for Bangel (as they don't formally reconcile until Xmas dawn), and months longer until Xander and Cordelia reconcile as friends.  (Even if he does have that one night of Faith-steerage to tide himself over, coming up.)

Was the Naughty October/November worth the cold and chaste December that followed?  Subject to opinion, but IMO for sure.  It's all part of the fun of living on a Hellmouth, right?

Edited December 7, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Loandbehold]

Halting Hex, I'm in awe. Mouth agape.

2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Wham, into the Wish!Verse!  Where Cordy promptly gets killed before day's end, pretty much begging for Buffy and saying that things were better when Buffy was around, etc.  Poor baby!

At least Cordy got a threesome w/ Vamps Xander and Willow before (okay, right before) her death.

[Halting Hex]

Hey, I enjoy a good Google, what can I say?  ("A Google.  You do Google.  I Google too.  I do." —not quite Gingerbread, but close enough.)

Amusing that Wish!Giles apparently creates an "instant replay" of Tuesday/Wednesday November 24th/25th when it was on Thanksgiving Thursday (11/26) that Referee Phil Luckett blew the coin toss in overtime (mishearing what call the player had made) and gave the ball to the wrong team, costing the Steelers the game and building momentum to restore the replay rule the NFL had gotten rid of earlier in the decade.  (Although the final stroke didn't happen until a couple weeks later, when NY Jets QB Vinny Testaverde "scored" the winning touchdown against Seattle despite clearly only crossing the goal line with the crown of his helmet, rather than the ball.)  

All in all, probably Giles did Anya a favor;  it would have been a very busy week if she'd still had her powers…it may be Cleveland that has a Hellmouth, but that's not to say that Pittsburgh fans can't be scary on their own…

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎05‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 8:40 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Well, what can I say...

THEN she hits him with the lamp!

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎04‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 11:48 PM, lembergwatcher said:

At least the whole Initiative concept serves as an explanation of who could have been responsible for guarding the Sunnydale Hellmouth before Buffy came to town. But the question is, how come Buffy didn't bump into Initiative commandos before enrolling in UC Sunnydale?

  Hide contents

I mean the agency have been operating for years! And its history traces back to WW2.

Riley says

Spoiler

he's been in Sunnydale for a couple of years in Buffy vs Dracula. So it may be that the Initiative only really took off then. 

I always took it that SD began to boil supernaturally leading up to the Ascension with the Mayor keeping a lid on things up until then. Buffy does run into some Men in Black in Out of Sight, Out of Mind. 

On ‎05‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 5:19 PM, Loandbehold said:

Halting Hex, I'm in awe. Mouth agape.

At least Cordy got a threesome w/ Vamps Xander and Willow before (okay, right before) her death.

Snuff? No thanks! Leave it for the Alien series. 

[Loandbehold]

On 12/6/2018 at 12:33 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

Snuff? No thanks!

You've said this before and I must admit to being confused. Vampires killing people has long been a metaphor for sex, including specifically on this show. Remember when Angel(us) kills the prostitute in the alley, then as she falls to the ground, he exhales the smoke? Or when Spike tried to kill Willow in the dorm room but can't "perform" due to the chip? Why is the Cordy sandwich a snuff film but the other killings aren't? After all, Charisma most certainly wasn't killed.

[Joe Hellandback]

19 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

You've said this before and I must admit to being confused. Vampires killing people has long been a metaphor for sex, including specifically on this show. Remember when Angel(us) kills the prostitute in the alley, then as she falls to the ground, he exhales the smoke? Or when Spike tried to kill Willow in the dorm room but can't "perform" due to the chip? Why is the Cordy sandwich a snuff film but the other killings aren't? After all, Charisma most certainly wasn't killed.

Yes it is but it's still distasteful (the French refer to orgasm as 'the little death', giving a new interpretation to Shakespeare's "Die in her mouth" line). 

[lembergwatcher]

Sometimes it seems like Parker's remark about toilet seat fully applies to Anya. 

Spoiler

I wish someone would have told her that before things became really serious with Xander.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎18‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 11:36 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Sometimes it seems like Parker's remark about toilet seat fully applies to Anya. 

  Hide contents

I wish someone would have told her that before things became really serious with Xander.

If anything surely

Spoiler

it's Anya who uses Xman for sex?

[Halting Hex]

So one of my video reactors (Steven G.) just got to School Hard, and I'm dreading watching the video, not so much for what Steven says, but for the doubtless-orgy of Spike-cooing that will be occurring in the comments.  (There were already an absurd amount of "you're gonna really love next episode!" comments on his SAR review.)  

So while I was delaying, I got to wondering what was the secret of Spike's almost-instant success?  And part of it, I think, has to be his slaying of Collin, who was not exactly loved in the fandom.  (The "Annoying One" nickname came from the fans before it showed up in 2.03.)  Yes, the original "it's the kid!" twist in NKAB,etc worked well enough, but Andrew Ferchland isn't the world's greatest actor (Steven keeps bitching about the faces he makes when he speaks), they tried the echo-voice effect in Angel (and then discarded it), they cut his best scene (where he visits Angel in Prophecy Girl to scare him off) and he's growing out of the part, anyhow.  So clearly it was time to have "a little more fun", and Spike reaped the reward from a grateful audience.

What this reminded me of was this episode's Riley-punches-Parker sequence, which seems to be a similar attempt to "get Riley over", the way that Spike had benefited two seasons back.  But why doesn't this work so well?   A few reasons:

• Parker had already been bopped by Buffy at the end of Beer Bad.  Her work was done.  This just feels like an unnecessary coda.

• Parker was a personal foe for Buffy, in ways that Collin never was.  If anyone beats on him, it's Buffy's place to do so, not some Iowa Interloper.  This is like if, at the end of Season 2, Faith showed up right after Kendra had been killed and slew Angel.  Wouldn't really have endeared us to Faith, no matter how much people might have wanted to see Angel get his rewards;  you can't step on Buffy's revenge like that.

• Spike's a vicious vampire; slaying Collin is in character for him.  Riley, angered or not, isn't the type who just runs around punching college kids.  Even when we learn about the commando secret, the punch-out still feels wrong.

• Spike did his work pretty much alone;  Dru may have been cheering him on insanely, but he still had to punch out various Aurelians to be able to grab Collin off of his throne.  Riley has Forrest and Graham to help him encircle Parker, who's notably smaller than any of them.  He comes off as a bully, IMO.

• Spike's moment comes off as triumphant; Riley's "smackdown" is played off as semi-comic, with it being a breakthrough to realizing he thinks Buffy is more than "peculiar", while Forrest is practically giggling at him.  

Spoiler

(You won't think it's so funny when "Rye" is all moony over some girl, I'm telling you, dude…)

So where Spike became a hot commodity by incinerating Collin (remember, just before he'd been all sulky about being vanquished by Joyce; not necessarily a debut worthy of the hype Angel gave him), Riley is IMO impeded by the attempt to impress here.  He does better in his awkward conversations with Willow, even if he's mostly reactive there.

(And it wouldn't have hurt if the "park bench" scene hadn't been such a disaster, either.  But Petrie seems to be trying to write a largely comedic episode, from the "screwball comedy" there to the slapfight to the "impotence" scene.  And I can't think that those are the most-fertile ground for new romantic 'ships to grow in, unless you intend B/R to be a big laugh.  Which would be surprising, I'd think.)

Edited February 7, 2019 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

4 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

• Parker had already been bopped by Buffy at the end of Beer Bad.  Her work was done.  This just feels like an unnecessary coda.

• Parker was a personal foe for Buffy, in ways that Collin never was.  If anyone beats on him, it's Buffy's place to do so, not some Iowa Interloper.

True, but Parker said very mean thing about Buffy. Which proves that bopping him on the head didn't help much. Bully or no bully, but what if Riley's punch eventually helped persuade Parker not to act like a dick when it comes to UC Sunnydale female population?

[Halting Hex]

Well, unless the audience suddenly gets invested in Katie Loomis, I doubt Riley's convincing Parker to reform before he breaks her heart, too, is going to set the viewers a-swooning over the hunky T.A.  We care about the characters we care about;  Riley saving Willow from the car in Wild at Heart earned him points, and punching Parker is supposed to do the same, because of the audience's attachment to Buffy. 

But, as noted, I don't think it's as successful as the writers hoped it would be.  But JMO.

[Halting Hex]

Liam Duke was, predictably, shattered by Wild at Heart (aside from loving Oz and Willoz, apparently infidelity has had a devastating effect on his family, so those sort of stories trigger him) and so anything would look good in comparison, to his eyes.  But even he couldn't help pointing out the rather obvious Chekhov's (flare) gun that Xander insists Buffy take with her.

I mean, I know Doug Petrie wants some way for Buffy to win the fight without Riley being able to identify her, so we can keep the "secret identity" plot running, but really? "If I get in trouble, I'll flare."  And what, Xander and Giles will see the giant flaming "4" Buffy made in the sky and come zooming over in their flying car and Xander will leap into the battle, yelling "IT'S CLOBBERING TIME!!", is that it?  I mean, seriously.

Not that Buffy saving Willow and going "contain this!" doesn't thrill my 'shipper heart*, but I can contain my enthusiasm here pretty easily.  Just saying.

*-although my analogy here turns Wiffy into incest, so there's that, too. 😞  (Even if Johnny was adopted in the most recent movie version…)

[lembergwatcher]

The writers sacrifice an important storyline in the name of some stupid joke, a sure sign of one of your favorite TV show starting its slow and painful descent into hell.

The Initiative takes place not long after Wild at Heart. Willow is in pain, still reeling from Oz/Veruca deal and her ex-boyfriend's hasty departure. And where is Xander - Willow's supposed BFF? Oh, here he is assuming the role of John Rambo, going on patrol, leaving the comforting thing to... Buffy. Say what?

First of all, it's kinda odd when Buffy doesn't view Xander as someone suitable for such kind of activity (she doesn't usually take him on patrols and even tried to exclude Xander from the whole Scooby thing once in the previous season) most of the time, but all of a sudden thinks Xander can handle it (even though neither him nor Giles are good fighters with the Slayer stamina). Of course, Willow is more important to Buffy than Xander's untimely death or possible trauma (and it's ok), but still... Second, Willow needs the comfort of an old friend too, her oldest living friend, to be precise. Even if she herself doesn't admit it. What can be more important (at least to Xander), ffs?? Buffy has her sacred duty and thus can't always be around even if her friends need comfort. What is Xander's excuse?

Why does it have to be Buffy? Xander knows Will much longer and I dare say somewhat better, after all. Yes, he does express some concern, but other than that?.. I find it hard to believe S.01/02 Xander would've wasted his time on less important things when his best friend needed him the most... Come on, Xand, don't be such a wuss, your best friend in the whole world is in pain! I mean: WILLOW. IS. IN. PAIN.

But for some unknown reason not only does Xander prefer the company of an old fart Giles, him and Willow do not even see each other the whole episode. I don't know how the others in the fandom call it, but I call it OOC bullshit. And Petrie the Writing Genius does this for the sake of what?? For the sake of stupid Xander/Harmony catfight?? Unbelievable.  

Anyway, to me The Initiative will always remain among the top episodes of my The Shittiest Buffy Episodes list. 

Edited December 2, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[DisneyBoy]

On 8/26/2018 at 4:08 PM, Halting Hex said:

Yes, because Willow cheering up the vampire who was trying to rape, murder, and vampirize her is Just.So.Funny. Not to mention the part where she seeks sexual validation from him.  Meanwhile, she doesn't just float a pencil at Spike's back and dust him (as she did in an identical situation in Choices) for the excellent reason that…James has a contract.

Yes, boy that scene had my blood boiling. How could Joss have thought having a girl who's about to be raped turn around and sympathize with her rapist for not being able to get it up... would be appropriate humor? I mean....really?

And it's not like that whole "metaphor for impotence" joke hasn't been done in variety of other situations...so it's not as if I'll give him a pass for having a really new clever idea and being so excited to use it that he didn't think through the implications. It was a recycled idea and the context made it wildly inappropriate and upsetting.

I kept waiting for Willow to pick up a lamp while Spike's back was turned to bash his head in...or something. And AH did an amazing job of selling Willow's terror as Spike jumped on top of her in her bed, making the following scene all the more uncomfortable. I mean we even saw him pinning her down physically on the bed. This wasn't some normal scene where he was just trying to get access to her neck. The staging was very much "rape scene".

If I was a girl who'd gone to college and been raped or assaulted in any way, that would have been a very triggering scene.

They still could have done the impotence joke at some other point if they really wanted to. Did nobody on production or on set suggest to Joss that this would be wildly inappropriate? What was the response to it from viewers back in the day?

...and yeah, what's the point of Willow studying magic if she doesn't use it to protect herself from the one scenario that keeps repeatedly happening in Sunnydale AKA being attacked by a vampire randomly?

Edited December 4, 2019 by DisneyBoy

[lembergwatcher]

7 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

How could Joss have thought having a girl who's about to be raped turn around and sympathize with her rapist for not being able to get it up... would be appropriate humor?

What if they decided to be unoriginal and tried to "re-create" Willow/Spike scene from S.03E.08 Lovers Walk?. Only this time Spikey isn't drunk and pathetic love bitch, but a violent agressor hell-bent for vengeance. But, hey, Spike is a "cool boy" and Whedon just loves such types. You think most fans hated Angel after he murdered Jenny Calendar and put her corpse in Giles' bed? I've read on some fan forums there were people in the audience who were actually fascinated with Angelus (yes, Angel's soulless alter ego) after the aforementioned moment in Passion. Who can guarantee he just snapped Jenny's neck and didn't rape her dead body afterwards? Who can guarantee Spike didn't rape the magic shop female clerk's corpse after drainining her in Lovers Walk?

This is Joss the (Fake) Feminist, after all. Probably from his POV girls are supposed to sympathize with their potential rapists, if those are the "cool" types.

7 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

What was the response to it from viewers back in the day?

I don't know but seems like some fans even liked the "awkward conversation" between the two. Legions of Willow/Spike shippers started to arise. Spikey - he's every girl's dream, you know.

Spoiler

And let us not forget that Spike turned out to be one of the series' most popular characters (voted as one the show's best characters in numerous polls) and eventually became the show's male lead.

7 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

what's the point of Willow studying magic if she doesn't use it to protect herself

Well, Willow prefers using magic for other things 😉 As for Spikey I can only say two words: plot armor. Whatever he does dusting him is not an option at all. That's how deeply in love with him were the writers even back than.

Edited December 4, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

On 12/4/2019 at 1:15 AM, DisneyBoy said:

How could Joss have thought having a girl who's about to be raped turn around and sympathize with her rapist for not being able to get it up... would be appropriate humor? I mean....really?

And what makes it worse is that we went to commercial with Willow about to be victimized, with our thoughts focused on her, all "they're not going to kill Willow, are they?"

(Apparently there had been some internet rumors that Willow would be vamped, because AH had been so popular as Vamp!Willow last year.  So the ep was, to an extent, playing into this part of the fandom's worries, just as The Harsh Light of Better Episodes had by ending the teaser with Harmony attacking Willow.)

I grant you that logically, we should know that Willow will be safe, since nobody dies during (or after) a commercial.  If you die, it's the climax before the ad break, as with Flutie or Jenny, or deep in the bowels of Act 4

Spoiler

(Tara, Jonathan, Xander's eye)

…even the fakeout on Cordelia in Lovers Walk happened after the climactic battle, after Spike's oh-so-brilliant relationship advice to Bangel.  (Seriously, why are these dolts listening to somebody who spent a century with an insane woman, and who couldn't keep her, anyway?  Isn't Spike almost literally the worst choice to make judgments about "love"?  And that's not even counting that Drusilla clearly preferred Angel and was running after him even before he lost That Pesky Soul.) Character death is a climax, not a "hook".  

But even though we logically know that Willow should survive, she's still our focus.  "She'll be okay, she'll be okay…she'll be okay, right?  She's going to get out of it…but how?? Buffy's off with Xander…is Riley going to rescue her, like last week?  That seems repetitive…"

And then we come back from commercial, and not only is the scene no longer scary and suspenseful…it's not even about Willow, any more.  Somehow, she's been reduced to a peripheral character, serving only to (almost literally) fluff Spike!  FFS.

(And bollocks to the retcon that Spike "noticed" Willow during Lovers Walk.  He was all about Drusilla in that episode, whether he was raging or sobbing or giving bloated boring speeches about park bench murders gone by.  I'd be as likely to credit Spike's claiming that he'd groped Xander's butt while carrying him into the ruined factory and he'd been obsessed with getting more of that arse ever since.)

It's disjointed, and it exploits our emotional investment in Willow (played up all episode, with the Willow-Riley scenes) for the sake of some cheap jokes about someone else. Grrr, indeed…

[Joe Hellandback]

3 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

And what makes it worse is that we went to commercial with Willow about to be victimized, with our thoughts focused on her, all "they're not going to kill Willow, are they?"

(Apparently there had been some internet rumors that Willow would be vamped, because AH had been so popular as Vamp!Willow last year.  So the ep was, to an extent, playing into this part of the fandom's worries, just as The Harsh Light of Better Episodes had by ending the teaser with Harmony attacking Willow.)

I grant you that logically, we should know that Willow will be safe, since nobody dies during (or after) a commercial.  If you die, it's the climax before the ad break, as with Flutie or Jenny, or deep in the bowels of Act 4

  Reveal spoiler

(Tara, Jonathan, Xander's eye)

…even the fakeout on Cordelia in Lovers Walk happened after the climactic battle, after Spike's oh-so-brilliant relationship advice to Bangel.  (Seriously, why are these dolts listening to somebody who spent a century with an insane woman, and who couldn't keep her, anyway?  Isn't Spike almost literally the worst choice to make judgments about "love"?  And that's not even counting that Drusilla clearly preferred Angel and was running after him even before he lost That Pesky Soul.) Character death is a climax, not a "hook".  

But even though we logically know that Willow should survive, she's still our focus.  "She'll be okay, she'll be okay…she'll be okay, right?  She's going to get out of it…but how?? Buffy's off with Xander…is Riley going to rescue her, like last week?  That seems repetitive…"

And then we come back from commercial, and not only is the scene no longer scary and suspenseful…it's not even about Willow, any more.  Somehow, she's been reduced to a peripheral character, serving only to (almost literally) fluff Spike!  FFS.

(And bollocks to the retcon that Spike "noticed" Willow during Lovers Walk.  He was all about Drusilla in that episode, whether he was raging or sobbing or giving bloated boring speeches about park bench murders gone by.  I'd be as likely to credit Spike's claiming that he'd groped Xander's butt while carrying him into the ruined factory and he'd been obsessed with getting more of that arse ever since.)

It's disjointed, and it exploits our emotional investment in Willow (played up all episode, with the Willow-Riley scenes) for the sake of some cheap jokes about someone else. Grrr, indeed…

Inappropriate humour is rather a Buffy trope, think of her sitting in the corpse outline in Crush?

[Halting Hex]

You've made that argument before, but I don't feel it's the blanket excuse you appear to claim.

And on the specific point, the future episode you cite doesn't get its focus pulled the way I claim this one does.  Either in the shift in tone or the switch to being Spike-centric where it had been a Willow-centric problem, previously.  But JMO.

[Halting Hex]

On 12/4/2019 at 1:15 AM, DisneyBoy said:

I kept waiting for Willow to pick up a lamp while Spike's back was turned to bash his head in...or something. And AH did an amazing job of selling Willow's terror as Spike jumped on top of her in her bed, making the following scene all the more uncomfortable. I mean we even saw him pinning her down physically on the bed. This wasn't some normal scene where he was just trying to get access to her neck. The staging was very much "rape scene".

Yeah, I hardly watch this one, but I was watching Domi's reaction video (I probably won't keep up with her, she's spoiled [slightly] for upcoming character events) and it felt so gross.

I mean, Spike hits her and then he's literally straddling her.  "Rape scene" indeed.  Hyena!Xander and Richard Anderson and Pirate!Larry…they didn't come close to this.

Spoiler

Hell, IMO, Seeing Red  doesn't even compare.  It's just another Buffy/Spike fight and they're not in a bed and Spike's not turning up the music to cover her screams and she isn't screaming, for that matter.  Gross, yes.  But not like this.

OTOH, as annoying as I still find the "Riley punch stupid Parker!" bit, it worked on Domi. Between that and the other Buffy/Riley scenes, she was pretty into the romantic possibilities by episode's end.So one could say that Parker served his purpose in the story.  Buffy gets to move on from Angel without the guy she "cheated on Angel" with being a part of her life, and Parker is a vehicle to get Riley accepted by the audience, the looming presence of King Brood in the following time-slot notwithstanding.

Spoiler

Which of course makes the decision spend the very next week watching Angel come to rescue Buffy and Buffy running off to see Angel at the drop of this news and his turning human and their making very much sex (pausing only for ice cream) and Buffy making it plain she wants Angel and only Angel forever (and the only thing stopping them turning out to be Angel choosing his superpowers over Buffy and erasing her mind) stupid beyond stupid, as I've noted.  How are we supposed to take Buffy/Riley seriously after that?

All of Parker's "good work" shot to shit. Sigh.

But of course, we need crossovers for sweeps and Angel  is struggling in the ratings and we're about to have to fire Glenn Quinn, so storyline growth be damned!  Full pandering to the BAngel 'shippers ahead! Oy…

********************************************

Hey, wait a second!  Did they just dust Tom?  (The lab-rat vamp; the guy in the cell next to Spike's.  "Hostile 16", I suppose.)

I mean, when Spike's sliding under that door to escape, we see some techs grappling with Tom, and it looks as though one of them makes a staking motion.  We don't see him dust (because the door slides down to block our view and because dusting effects cost $$$), but I think I heard the "dusting" music cue.  Huh.

You'd think they'd be more judicious.  Hostile Subterraneans don't grow on trees.  And if they already put Tom's chip in…

Bummer.  Poor Purple-Sweater Vamp is now the only survivor of Sunday's gang.

And, more relevantly, when I did that quiz (in that game I used to play) about the recurring characters and who survives and who doesn't, I'd listed Tom as surviving.  Too late to fix that now!  Grrr.

******************************************

Quote

RILEY (asking Willow for help in making conversation with Buffy):  …and I'm thinking "how about those Broncos?" isn't going to cut it.

Excuse me, Agent Finn…Broncos?  I know Denver gets a lot of its games aired in the Plains states, but Iowa is Bears Country, surely?

Of course, this being 1999, the Broncos have just won back-to-back Super Bowls to close out John Elway's career, but still.  Loyalty should be made of sterner stuff.  What are you, Finn…a front-runner??  Boo, hiss!!

(Ironically, by the time this aired, the hot story in the NFL was the "Greatest Show on Turf" St. Louis Rams, who are not only closer to Iowa than Denver is, but who featured the Cinderella story of Kurt Warner [formerly of the Iowa Barnstormers of the Arena League] leading them at quarterback.  But production schedules leave Riley behind the times, alas.

Greatest single-season story in NFL history, IMO…every step from "And now Trent Green is down!" to One Yard Short.  And you missed it.  Sad.)

******************************************************

Quote

BUFFY:  You know what?  [Spike's] worn out his welcome.  Tonight, I kill him.

Yeah, surrrre, Buff.  They totally put Marsters in the opening credits just to kill him off in his first ep as a regular.  Fat chance of that.

Spoiler

Future Tara issues aside.  That was different;  she'd been a regular in all-but-name for more than two seasons by then.

Empty threats only erode our confidence in the character, moving forward.  JMO.

Spoiler

I mean, I guess Buffy doesn't actually threaten to kill Spike all that often.  Just here and 5.04, explicitly.  And she seems indifferent to his suicidal thoughts in Doomed.  But still, when we get to Intervention  and she's claiming she'll have to kill Spike so he doesn't spill the beans to Glory (about Dawn), it's not good that we already know she's full of shit, even if we hadn't guessed that we'll end the episode with Buffy giving him (and the Spuffers) the romantic kiss they've been craving.  Sigh.

 

Edited October 8, 2021 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

From The Freshman:

Quote

WILLOW:  Professor Walsh is supposed to be great!  She's, like, world-renowned.

LEXI (disbelieving):  And she's at [UC-Sunnydale]?

But, as we now know, Maggie had a specific reason for wanting to be at UC-Hellmouth.  So was that a subtle clue?  Or just hyping the guest cast and fortuitously creating an (unintentional) incongruity that Lexi catches?

Points to her for doing so, regardless of Joss's intent.

However…I disagree with her thesis.  Renowned academics turn up at the strangest places.  I wouldn't have thought that the wilds of Binghamton were particularly alluring, but our creative arts departments were laced with people whose names were not unknown.  Our literature faculty included both John Gardner (Grendel, Nickel Mountain and the controversial book of literary criticism, On Moral Fiction) and Larry Woiwode (Beyond the Bedroom Wall), and the playwright in residence was Loften Mitchell, of Bubbling Brown Sugar fame.  (Mitchell was nominated for a Tony™ award, but didn't win.) Any of them could probably have taught closer to the bubbling Big Apple, rather than in the wilds of Upstate, but apparently Bingo-Land offered a more secure sinecure.  So there's no reason why Maggie couldn't have wanted a restful position in a quiet little seaside town, just two hours up the freeway from Neiman-Marcus.  (She didn't, but IMO she might have.)

PS-John Gardner died at age 49, when he drove his Harley off of a cliff.  (Okay, into a guard rail and Gardner was flung off of the bike, over the rail, and a bit down the hill.  Poetic license.) Probably not a suicide, just "don't drink and bike, kids".  I didn't have him, as I was only a freshman, Ironically, and he taught advanced courses…

(Hmm, is that another [not really a] clue?  Maggie might land at Sunnydale, but she wouldn't be teaching Psych 105, would she?)

…but I heard his students were devastated.  Gardner was a "cool" professor, it was said, whereas Woiwode was rather a dick.

(I had Mitchell, who was a lot of fun, but a bit too unfocused, IMO.  Worked for him, just not so much for us.)

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

Seeing a mention of Jenny Trout in the Killed by Death thread led me to seek her most-recent review, and it's this episode.

Unfortunately, Jenny's piece sucks almost as badly the episode itself.  She does wonder if Xander's mom offering Xander and Giles the fruit punch is out of character, given that his family is generally not-so-friendly. (Mom doesn't cook [OoM, OoS], can't recognize Xander's voice on the phone, even when he calls her "Mom" [Surprise] and his family's drunken holiday fights lead Xander to perennially sleep outside [Amends].) But I just figure his mom is a drunk, and that wouldn't disqualify her from putting on her "friendly" face for guests.

Aside from that, Jenny has transferred her Xander-hate to Riley (yay?), comes up with this theory that Harmony is some sort of feminist role-model (despite her letting herself be constantly used by Spike) and thinks the slap-fight is just hi-LARIOUS.  She can't bring herself to criticize Spike (her "albino tiger of a man") for anything, and so merely reports the details of the scene where Willow…well, you know what.  (No need for me to make myself ill.)

Thus leaving it up to one of her commenters to state the obvious:

Quote

The scene where Spike tried to attack Willow but couldn’t. I know you didn’t point this out because it’s obvious, but with the sexual assault parallels, it’s like… A man tried to attack a woman but can’t perform, and then the woman feels insulted? And then has to be reassured by the man that she’s desirable? And then has to comfort him that he’s still …whatever the correct parallel term would be here? I’m not the only one who finds that fucked up, right?

Sadly, on that page, said commenter pretty much was the only one to do so.  Many more people devoted themselves to agreeing that Riley is The Worst, for whatever fucking "reason".

(One commenter, named Polly, wrote that Jenny was neither as funny nor as feminist as she imagined herself to be, and it's no wonder that Polly had never heard of Jenny's fiction writing.  Hard to argue, even if it did seem simplistic enough to be AI-generated.  [In a different post, Jenny sadly gave some examples of AI-generated posts her writing program had created.  Pretty much made me glad that I'll be dead before this shit completely takes over world.  Enjoy your SkyNet masters running your lives, future generations!])

Jenny did take a moment to quote this bit, from Act I, when Giles has just deduced that the Commandos appear human:

Quote

GILES:  Which means that, once again, you [Xander] and I will not be needed to help Buffy.

Er, what, Ripper?  Is Mama Harris not the only drunk in this episode?  Wouldn't a bunch of guys with guns be pretty much an ideal circumstance for Giles and Xander to help Buffy?  Buffy may have a lot of abilities, but there's only one of her.  This would seem to be a case where a bit of strength-in-numbers might come in handy.  Especially as the Commandos are foes that G/X might be able subdue more easily than they could handle superhumanly-strong vampires, and Buffy has to hold back when fighting humans.

As for the weapons issue, Xander used to have his military knowledge (although they clown him in this episode) and we see that Giles can easily load a gun, too. 

(Jenny expresses surprise about this, but even given that England has much-saner gun laws than the shithole I live in, it's hardly surprising that the Watchers' Council receives firearms training, I wouldn't think.)

Edited May 8, 2023 by Halting Hex