All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[AwesomO4000]

Castiel was wrong about a number of things. I think it's still open for interpretation.  Ultimately though I think Ruby was the one that really influenced Sam more than anything. She convinced him that he needed the blood and maybe he never really did, but HE thought he did. I think it was easier for Sam to believe the blood controlled him rather than admit he was the one in charge of his 'monster' skill.

 

That could be true, but that would be a weird and oddly specific thing for Castiel to be wrong about. He also mentioned that Nick was guzzling the stuff for a similar reason, so I would assume this was found out through surveilance and this was why Cas said that Sam needed to drink it as well.

 

Sam already thought that he was a freak, so I don't think it would be that far off for him to admit that he had those powers, especially after talking with all of the other psychic kids and going through having visions previously. He liked being able to halt and exercise demons with his mind, because he could then sometimes save the host, so I don't see why he would resist doing that to the point that he'd need a placebo to do it. If anything the placebo - which required demon blood and potentially hurting a demon's host if it wasn't Ruby's blood - was more guilt inducing than the powers which were actually helpful.

 

That's why for me the idea that blood replaced Azael's presence as a source of power for Sam makes the most fitting interpretation for me, and Ruby was talking more about Sam's choices than Sam's physical powers with her Dumbo speech.

[DittyDotDot]

I guess all I' m saying is that whether it was a physical addiction or not, it was the choices he made on the way to addiction that matter. I think Ruby's "Dumbo" speech was Kripke's way of addressing that. Sam says, "You bitch. You did this to me." And Ruby's basically saying: No, Dumbo, you did it to yourself.

 

Personally, I can't believe the show was wanting it to not have a physical component to it because they never played it that way, IMO. Every character acts like it does do something physically to Sam and Free To Be You And Me and My Bloody Valentine support that, IMO.  As do the commentaries for both When The Levee Breaks and Lucifer Rising where both Kripke and Gamble seem pretty earnest that Sam is having a physical withdrawal from the demon blood. If Kripke stated something differently, I'd love to hear and/or read that. So, if Sam learns at the end of S4 that he doesn't need the demon blood to access his powers, he had the power all along, then why does he need the demon blood in S5 to access the same powers.

 

However, I think it's immaterial to the actual issue. Sam made the choices for himself, Ruby didn't force him to drink that blood or force him to come back to it once he had stopped drinking the blood. So, if it works better for you to see it a psychological, I don't think it changes the story all that much and/or is the point of the story to begin with.

 

ETA: This is also why I think Dean owns him becoming a demon. Nobody forced him to take on the Mark Of Cain before he knew the consequences. In fact, he says at the end of the episode that he knew Crowley was trying to play him and this was what Crowley wanted--which if that's not a good time to step back and reassess, I don't when is. Just because Dean knew that Crowley was manipulating him makes it no more of a foolish move, IMO. The main difference for me with Sam's S4 blood drinking arc and Dean's MoC arc is that Dean didn't lie about it or try to pretend it was something good when he knew there would be consequences, he just didn't care what they were. He figured he was damned anyway because of Kevin, so why not take out a Knight Of Hell on his way out. Which is pretty much where Sam was when he started drinking the demon blood in S4, IMO

Edited September 23, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[trxr4kids]

I agree that once Sam started drinking the blood it did have physical effects. But Azazels blood still had effects on him even after he was dead otherwise Lilith would have been able to kill him when her hellhounds killed Dean, additionally how many times did we have to hear various demons talk about how Sam was supposed to lead them or be their boy king or words to that effect. If he still didn't have power after Azazels death why would demons even consider following him? That little logic fail is one of the many reasons that I hate the whole demon blood story. Also I still don't understand why Sam as Lucifers true vessel would be required to swill gallons of blood anyways. What was the whole point of him being the one if he was no different physiologically than Nick? I think it was thrown in last minute to explain why they, the PTB, had Sam drink the stuff in the first place. Like see, we didn't just needlessly assassinate Sams character, we had a point aren't we clever. Although at least they tried explain it and redeem him afterwards, unlike season 8.

[DittyDotDot]

I agree that once Sam started drinking the blood it did have physical effects. But Azazels blood still had effects on him even after he was dead otherwise Lilith would have been able to kill him when her hellhounds killed Dean, additionally how many times did we have to hear various demons talk about how Sam was supposed to lead them or be their boy king or words to that effect. If he still didn't have power after Azazels death why would demons even consider following him?

 

Oh, I agree he did have some power laying dormant after Yellow Eyes died, but I think he needed the demon blood to access them after Yellow Eyes died. And maybe he would have needed it to be strong enough to kill Lilith even if Yellow Eyes hadn't died, I haven't decided on that one yet. But I definitely think him being contaminated as a baby means he had some power all along, just didn't know how to access it.

 

Also I still don't understand why Sam as Lucifers true vessel would be required to swill gallons of blood anyways. What was the whole point of him being the one if he was no different physiologically than Nick? I think it was thrown in last minute to explain why they, the PTB, had Sam drink the stuff in the first place.

 

I totally agree. It makes no sense except that they were trying to tie up all these loose ends at the end of S5. If Sam needed the blood to contain Lucifer, then Dean and/or Adam should have needed something to contain Michael, IMO. They really screwed the pooch on that one, they should have just left it alone...Sam needed the demon blood to kill Lilith and get Lucifer out of the cage. I was fine with that, then they drop this other bit of nonsense on it. I just can't with that sort of storytelling, I just can't.

Edited September 23, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[trxr4kids]

Oh, I agree he did have some power laying dormant after Yellow Eyes died, but I think he needed the demon blood to access them after Yellow Eyes died. And maybe he would have needed it to be strong enough to kill Lilith even if Yellow Eyes hadn't died, I haven't decided on that one yet. But I definitely think him being contaminated as a baby means he had some power all along, just didn't know how to access it.

 

 

I totally agree. It makes no sense except that they were trying to tie up all these loose ends at the end of S5. If Sam needed the blood to contain Lucifer, then Dean and/or Adam should have needed something to contain Michael, IMO. They really screwed the pooch on that one, they should have just left it alone...Sam needed the demon blood to kill Lilith and get Lucifer out of the cage. I was fine with that, then they drop this other bit of nonsense on it. I just can't with that sort of storytelling, I just can't.

See I think they just saw the having Sam drink the blood thing was a clever way for them to give Sam powers but then make him normal again without regard to what it did to the character and whether or not it made sense from a continuity standpoint. Ha I must need more caffeine or something to think that they ever gave a rats ass about continuity. I'll end my rant by saying this whole mess could've been avoided, no making Sam out to be a total jackass required, if they would have made Sam's powers kick back in as a defense against Lillith and since his powers had always been glitchy he trained with Ruby to control them so he wouldn't hurt anyone accidentally and could at least use them for good. Then he could've still kept it from Dean knowing that it would worry him and he didn't want to add to his post hell trauma. He still could have killed Lillith and broken the final seal, his powers could've then been gone without making Sam a huge douche.

Edited September 23, 2014 by trxr4kids

[DittyDotDot]

I don't know, I always hate when everything is done to a character and they never actively do anything "wrong" but bad things happen anyway--oops. I prefer that Sam made his choices and then had to make up for them. We all make bonehead decisions sometimes, it doesn't mean we're all douches as long as we learn from it and try to do better in the future (which I'm of the opinion Sam did). I do think that Sam believed his intentions were good, still paved the way to Hell, though. For me, I never saw Sam as a douche (nor have I ever thought Dean was a douche either--I'm still totally bi-bro) and I do think that a lot of that is because I think he was roided up on demon blood. I don't excuse his decisions of how he got there, but I don't take everything he said under the influence as truth either. Nor would I with a drunk or drug addict in real life. I think he had to commit and fall down that rabbit hole or It wouldn't have felt right to me.

Edited September 23, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

I never thought Sam was a douche for the demon blood. I thought he was a douche for allying with ruby on the first place which led to him drinking the demon blood. At least it was consequential.

[trxr4kids]

DittyDotDot I get what you mean but for me I was never really sure of Sam's intentions since we weren't really shown anything other than he was motivated by anger and a need for revenge IMO. Yes, he regretted it and yes, he tried to make it right but to me it felt like that was because of the outcome of his mistakes not the actual mistakes themselves if that makes sense. Like as if he would have been fine with everything he did if it had worked out like he thought it would. I guess what I'm saying is I felt that Sam regretted the consequences of his actions not the actions themselves. Sam has been difficult for me to like since that whole story line and I don't think it was necessary to the plot at all. Season 6 ( most of it anyway) helped not at all with making Sam likeable again for me. Then we get hallucinating Sam who by that point I didn't care about enough to see how his brain worked but since I watched I couldn't help but think, so what, Lucifer tortured you get over it, what did you think was gonna happen. I also noticed nobody told he was a weak whiny princess who needed to suck it up, it was all about how his hell pain was the worst ever, not that I wanted them to or anything. I was sure that in season 8 we would get a normal likeable Sam again, ha! season 9 , ha! I hate that I have to do mental gymnastics to get where Sam is coming from. I realize I'm ranting and I'll step away from the screen.

[DittyDotDot]

Oh, I totally think TPTB have no idea what to do with Sam, nor do they give him good motivations. He's a plot device for them mostly. He does what he does because they need him to do it not because it actually makes sense for the character. However, I'm able to find motivations and still see him differently than most of the fandom--maybe it's a little sister thing or maybe it's just that I don't generally need everything to be spelled out for me to go along, I don't know. I'm not suggesting that it hasn't been frustrating nor that I've enjoyed Sam the pissy pants and/or contrary that they keep doing the last two years. Just that I don't think it means that he's a douche either. I think he's like most people to me, makes some bad calls, makes some good calls but in the end I don't think his intentions are bad or evil or douchey, so I tend to be a little more forgiving.

 

And I do see what you mean by Sam regretting the consequences, but not the actions and to a certain extent I think you're right. I do think he wouldn't have been so sorry about the blood drinking and the lying and such if it had turned out okay. But, I'd also say he regrets ever aligning himself with Ruby to begin with, though, and siding with her over Dean. Which is the only thing that really matters to me anyway. And, I'd like to think he would've regretted that no matter how it turned out. I thought they did a decent job of showing he already regretted it in Lucifer Rising.

Edited September 23, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

I would have been sorely disappointed if Sam's bad decisions did not have a consequence. I mean look at Dean in s9. His bad decisions got him demonized. So there's that. 

[Aeryn13]

He might have regretted the Ruby thing on some level but deep down, I think he still holds this partnership up as something he liked.

 

I mean, in the Season 4 Finale Ruby pretty much tells him to his face how much of an idiot she made out of him. That should have been a blow to his pride like no other. And I kinda think in that moment it was.

 

Yet in the stupid Paris Hilton episode where he says that Dean being bossy pushed him to Ruby and that being partnered with Ruby made him feel strong. And his point in this episode was that Dean needed to change. He holds up the dynamic with Ruby as something to be regarded with a certain fondness. I made him feel "strong". 

 

He complains that Dean played/plays the leader too much but Ruby actually was the "leader" in Season 4. Sam just didn`t know it.

So apparently, his beef is not with being a follower, just don`t tell him he is one? What is Dean to do then, mirror Ruby and the end result is? What Sam just specified he didn`t want, that Dean calls all the shots. He still would as "Ruby", Sam would just be in blissful denial about it while it was going on.

 

However, in that case, he should try and find a more trustworthy sycophant (good luck) or let it go. I don`t even think Dean does everything right in this relationship but he will never be the smarmy temptress. And that has nothing to do with the sexual aspect. It`s not who he is. 

[catrox14]

Oh gods. I forgot about Fallen Idols. Jeez I hate that episode so much. I remember thinking this is biggest fucking retcon the show has ever done. Blame Dean for Sam's going with Ruby??? Really show. Man that just ...grrr.   And they never backed off from Dean being a dick in s5 so they could redeem Sam.  Why couldn't they just redeem Sam without him blaming Dean?  Just no.

[7kstar]

Oh gods. I forgot about Fallen Idols. Jeez I hate that episode so much. I remember thinking this is biggest fucking retcon the show has ever done. Blame Dean for Sam's going with Ruby??? Really show. Man that just ...grrr.   And they never backed off from Dean being a dick in s5 so they could redeem Sam.  Why couldn't they just redeem Sam without him blaming Dean?  Just no.

I think the real problem is that not too many believed that Dean should be blamed and it didn't help Sam's image at all, In fact I think it harmed it way more.  Season 5 does have what were they thinking moments?  or were they thinking?

[SueB]

I'm willing to sell votes in the Survival game to not re-discuss Fallen Idol.  Any takers?

[DittyDotDot]

I'd totally take you up on it SueB, but I'm not sure if I'm cheating since I usually skip all posts with any mention of Fallen Idols. However, I've been trying to knock out a certain episode that you've been trying to hang on to for some time. ::rubs hands together and dons a most Machiavellian grin:: ;)

 

I'd give my left leg not to have to see those two dreaded words ever again though. Not sure what my left leg is really worth, nor what anyone would do with it, but I'd gladly give it none the less.

Edited September 24, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

Okay I'll take that deal. LOL

[DittyDotDot]

But what would you do with my left leg catrox14? ;)

[catrox14]

Oh I can think of many things.

[AwesomO4000]

I'm willing to sell votes in the Survival game to not re-discuss Fallen Idol.  Any takers?

 

I don't know SueB: before I read your post, I had a well-composed post written arguing Sam's side, and I even made it brief (well for me). I saved it - just in case.

 

So my price would be really steep, and we entirely disagree on episodes here, so I'm not sure you'd be willing - and it's unlikely I can save my episodes anyway.

 

What types of votes would you be offering... and why yes, I am slightly evil and also Machiavellian.

Edited September 24, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[DittyDotDot]

Oh I can think of many things.

 

Hee! You're aware that just begs for details, right? Damn, I hate it when I forget to give terms before a bargain is struck--I really want to know! ;)

[SueB]

I'm offering two rounds, you set the votes.

[AwesomO4000]

I'm offering two rounds, you set the votes.

 

Nice of you, but I decided no one needed to read my yammering anyway. Enh, I can always save it for the rewatch episode thread - though I won't tell if "oops, we accidentally forgot to put that one in the rewatch discussion" either (it really is to me a "one of these things is not like the others" episode for that season. Both brothers looked crappy in it - reminded me of "Sex and Violence" that way.).

 

Anyway, I'm gonna be pleased if "Monster..." goes out second, since I think that's the best it can do at this point.

[SueB]

Well alrighty then....I'm off to vote....

[AwesomO4000]

P.S. - I meant to also say "Thank you" for the offer. Geez - where did my manners go?

 

Sorry 'bout that... carry on. I'll be joining you after midnight-ish or so.

[7kstar]

I'm willing to sell votes in the Survival game to not re-discuss Fallen Idol.  Any takers?

Too late, mine are gone, but I've also said my peace about Fallen Idol.   It's not a fav, nor is it one that I spend a lot of time thinking about anyway.  :)

[SueB]

The retrospective is coming Monday. I wonder if we'll get a 'best of' list?

[catrox14]

  It's kind of interesting. TNT is running a marathon on Tuesday of TNT all day up until 8pm, but there are no episode descriptions. Could they be premiering s9?

[Demented Daisy]

I have episode descriptions and yes, they are starting S9 on Tuesday.

 

ETA  Depending on your time zone.  S9 starts at 7pm Monday on TNT for me.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Demented Daisy

[catrox14]

Thanks DD for that information coincides with the Netflix release.

[amensisterfriend]

In honor of Halloween: which episodes do you all think are the most effectively creepy, chilling, atmospheric, etc.?! 

[SueB]

Family Remains - EPIC F*cked Up Shit

[Demented Daisy]

From the Bitterness thread:

 

I wonder if really the rise in ratings is due to new fans?  Which aren't so bored or upset with the repetition.

 

 

I believe so, based only upon my daughter and her friends.  For example, they're having a marathon before the Homecoming game tonight.  :-)

 

I think that the show has slightly shifted to appeal to the new, younger fan base.  10 years ago, they were too young to watch the show, but the addition of Charlie (and to a lesser extent Kevin) has broadened the appeal of the show.  Bobby reminds the kids of their grumpy grandfather; Charlie is someone they'd like to be or someone they know.  

 

As for them being bored or upset with the repetition, I suspect it's Star Wars all over again.  Kids who grew up with the prequels vastly prefer them to the original trilogy.  Their parents think the prequels sucked and the original trilogy was superior.  (In a couple of years, we'll be having the same discussion with the new set of SW movies, I believe.)

 

So my daughter and her friends don't have the nostalgia factor of the early seasons.  The Kripke years had a "Blue Collar" feel to it; the more recent seasons are much "shinier", for want of a better word.  The recent seasons are missing the classic rock, for example, but that doesn't bother the kids watching today.  The visuals are brighter, literally.  Charlie, Kevin, Krissy and her bunch, Kate the werewolf -- all younger characters that appeal to younger viewers.

 

The ability to binge watch also affects how younger viewers see the show, I think.  With 9 seasons of info to absorb over a massively shorter time span, so much that we have obsessed over can be glossed over.  No need to comb over a season's worth of episodes to find clues to the finale.  They don't send days or weeks thinking about one specific episode while they wait for the next.  It's information overload -- they can remember plot points, but not the nuances of characterization, for example.

 

As always, mileage varies.

[catrox14]

I think binge watching changes perceptions in a big way both for and against the show. I don't think binge via Netflix etc brings in only new, younger fans it brings in fans of all ages.

[SueB]

I binged watched viaiTunes thru S8 and real time after. Totally makes me (personally) much more tolerant of warts and pimples in the show.

Hooked my daughter and boyfriend and they are racing to finish 10.3-4 before Tuesday.

[Demented Daisy]

I think binge watching changes perceptions in a big way both for and against the show. I don't think binge via Netflix etc brings in only new, younger fans it brings in fans of all ages.

I didn't say that it only brings in young fans.  I said that the ability to binge (which is not something we had when the show started) can change the perception of the show amongst young viewers in relation to repetitive or "boring" story lines.  It can change the perception of anyone (as SueB pointed out) who binge watched previous seasons before starting to watch live.  Since I was talking about new, young viewers of the show, I phrased my assertion around that particular demographic.

 

I think we all know that people of all varieties love the Winchester Bros. and company.  :-)

Edited November 9, 2014 by Demented Daisy

[catrox14]

I didn't say that you said that. Just espousing the viewpoint that it brings in all manner of viewer.

Edited November 9, 2014 by catrox14

[amensisterfriend]

In honor of the show just celebrating its 200th episode: what are currently your favorite 15(ish!) episodes of the series so far?!

[ItsABear]

I binged watched viaiTunes thru S8 and real time after. Totally makes me (personally) much more tolerant of warts and pimples in the show.

Hooked my daughter and boyfriend and they are racing to finish 10.3-4 before Tuesday.

I binge watched on Netflix over the summer after having Supernatural recommended by several people.  I enjoyed all seasons with a bit less enjoyment of season 7 and the Leviathans.  I found them boring.  After talking to people who watched it in "real time" I was surprised how much less they liked season 6 and 8 than I did.  So I do think binge watching is different.  When you don't have to wait a week or more between episodes, you don't have time to reflect on what was wrong.  You just move on to the next in the series. 

 

I also have a question for all you.  I see Adam mentioned as still being in Hell, and maybe because I did binge watch I missed something.  However, wasn't it just his meat suit that Michael was using, as Adam had already died in the episode where he was introduced. 

[SueB]

 

I also have a question for all you.  I see Adam mentioned as still being in Hell, and maybe because I did binge watch I missed something.  However, wasn't it just his meat suit that Michael was using, as Adam had already died in the episode where he was introduced.

It appeared the Angels resurrected Adam completely in Point of No Return.  He was a human with his own agency in that episode.  Adam had to say "yes" to allow Micheal to use his body.  So, unless Adam soul was somehow discarded uniquely by Micheal, he went into the pit with Luci.

[Demented Daisy]

And didn't Death kinda-sorta confirm that Adam's soul is still in the pit when he told Dean that he would only grab one?  

[ItsABear]

Thanks guys.  I didn't realize that Adam's soul was in there with Michael and Lucifer.  Do you think Michael would be protecting his soul from Lucifer then?  If he were to be resurrected, would he be as damaged as Sam was?

[DittyDotDot]

I binge watched on Netflix over the summer after having Supernatural recommended by several people.  I enjoyed all seasons with a bit less enjoyment of season 7 and the Leviathans.  I found them boring.  After talking to people who watched it in "real time" I was surprised how much less they liked season 6 and 8 than I did.  So I do think binge watching is different.  When you don't have to wait a week or more between episodes, you don't have time to reflect on what was wrong.  You just move on to the next in the series. 

 

I think it has to do more with personal preferences and what drew you to the show in the first place. I binged the first five and a half seasons over the course of about six months, then watched live starting with the end of S6. I enjoy S7 quite a bit--even though the Leviathans were rather boring--I just prefer the show when the boys are fighting the good fight together rather than fighting each other. Probably why the first three seasons are almost gold in my book too. If you dig around some of the threads, I think you'll find a huge range of responses to each season even among the binge-watching crowd. This show draws a very wide-ranging and very eclectic audience, IMO.

 

As far as Adam and whether Michael would protect him? I don't know...I'm thinking not. In the end, Michael wasn't really all that much different than Lucifer. He wasn't enamored with humanity or felt like he needed to protect them, he just didn't outwardly challenge his father's love of them as Lucifer did. I imagine he maybe holds a bit of resentment towards Sam and Dean and Adam is a representation of them. Plus, this show is hopelessly addicted to angst, so I'm sure if we ever see Adam again, he will have been tortured by two arc angels for hundreds of years until he turns into a demon and somehow gets out of the cage and comes after Sam and Dean. BTW, show, I'm in no way saying I want to see this...no, just, no!

[Demented Daisy]

I would rather not see Adam again.  I'd prefer it if God shows up sometime around the series finale, declare it's been taken care of, Adam is safe and whole in Heaven.  Maybe as a wish granted to Sam and Dean for a job well done.

 

Otherwise:

 

 

Plus, this show is hopelessly addicted to angst, so I'm sure if we ever see Adam again, he will have been tortured by two arc angels for hundreds of years until he turns into a demon and somehow gets out of the cage and comes after Sam and Dean. BTW, show, I'm in no way saying I want to see this...no, just, no!

 

 

Yep, couldn't agree more.

[SueB]

My headcannon is Micheal is protecting Adam just to dick with Luci.

[catrox14]

 

Plus, this show is hopelessly addicted to angst, so I'm sure if we ever see Adam again, he will have been tortured by two arc angels for hundreds of years until he turns into a demon and somehow gets out of the cage and comes after Sam and Dean. BTW, show, I'm in no way saying I want to see this...no, just, no!

 

Here's a question. If he was tormented by two arch angels who aren't actually demons would that still result in Adam being a demon or just a really fucked up angel like Lucifer?

[DittyDotDot]

I don't think humans can become angels. I don't think the torture has to be done by demons to become a demon, I'm just assuming the torture itself is what makes one turn into a demon. Plus, Lucifer created the first demon by corrupting and twisting a human soul--which is what the torture does, IMO.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Fan Fiction" episode thread:

 

The first time I heard the Single Tear it really bugged me because I really thought it was mocking Dean for his emotions. After listening to that song more I don't think it's mocking Dean as much it is a bit of a retcon of how Sam felt/feels about Dean.

   

It had Sam singing about how Dean doesn't see himself the way Sam does (perfect man without sin) but that really doesn't mesh at all with how Sam has behaved towards Dean throughout most of the series save s3 and 10.

 

 S3 was really the only time Sam put Dean's needs first but even that was sort of backseated by mystery spot which was about what losing Dean would do to Sam.

 

I disagree. In my opinion, season 4 and season 8 were more of the anomalies, and I think season 4 actually did a huge disservice to Sam by ignoring part of the reason Sam ended up in the situation he did. (More on season 8 later). Yes, a large majority of it was due to the bad choices Sam made, but the show was quick to put all the blame on Sam and focus only on his bad choices and then make sure Sam's behavior was over-the-top just to dig the thorn in a little deeper. Dean's bad choice of making the deal in the first place was hardly referenced and then never spoken of again after the first or second episode of season 5, and likely part of the reason Dean's going to hell sometimes seems ignored, I think, is because that would be an acknowledgement that the reason Dean went to hell was because of a bad choice he made. After the first episode or so of season 5, that was all retconned into it being all Sam's fault. And I think part of Sam's behavior in season 4 - especially the second half - was to further that Sam blame.

 

My point here was that except for season 4 and 8, in my opinion, Sam was often about Dean being his big brother and admiring him and/or wanting Dean to believe in him as much as he believed in Dean. For me even Sam's complaints to Dean in season 1 about their father were more about trying to get Dean to break out from underneath John's thumb and be the person he deserved to be more than actually thinking Dean really was weak. Sam's change of thinking in that in season 4 to 'Dad was right' was actually a symptom of something being wrong with Sam.

 

As for Sam putting Dean's needs above his own only happening in season 3, I again disagree. I also thought Sam tried to put Dean's needs above his own wants a few times in season 5 and for a lot of season 6.5 through 7. Second half of season 6 Sam was very grateful to Dean. In the season 6 finale, Sam's decision was, in my opinion, about putting Dean first as an acknowledgement of all Dean had done for him.  Season 7 was a lot about Sam trying his best to hold himself together mostly for Dean, because he didn't think Dean deserved any more pain or problems. Sam went out of his way to admit uncomfortable truths to keep Dean informed, he listen to Dean and capitulated to him in their arguments, he consistently tried to get Dean to take care of himself without sounding too nagging - not an easy task - and did what he could for Dean considering his own mental state. Sam constantly brushed off his own condition as better than expected under the circumstances and instead expressed concern for Dean. It's just that nothing Sam did worked and Sam likely added that to his pile of things he "let Dean down" with.

 

And after watching all of that character development, it's why I never understood how they got to Sam in season 8. That seemed more like fanfic to me - and bad fanfic at that. Ooh Sam hits a dog and meets a sassy, independent veterinarian who's husband died in war and they help each other heal until - oooh plot twist - her husband isn't really dead at all! (even though that's really, really far fetched nowadays). And even though Sam was all about Dean last season, we'll just forget about that since he can now have his "normal life" that he wanted (never mind that Sam hasn't mentioned wanting it in any capacity since season 4, and rarely if at all since season 2) and gets to go to farmers' markets. That sounds more like fanfiction to me than anything that happened in the "Fanfiction" episode. Worse it was dull fanfiction. At least it could have been interesting - make Amelia a psychopathic serial killer or something - her husband didn't die in the war... she actually killed him, and now his ghost is trying to warn Sam and some of Sam's "memories" are really drug induced enhancements, because Amelia was dosing his food. *shrug* At least it's different and sort of interesting. And explains the super-bright happy, happy memories. And Sam abandoning Dean and Kevin. Then they could have done everything in real time - including Dean in Purgatory - and skipped some of the intermediate boring episodes.

 

Sorry got off on a tangent there... Bottom line. I'd include parts of season 5 and season 6.5 - 7 in the Sam making Dean a priority and even over himself at times.

[SueB]

S10 up through "Ask Jeeves"....

 

While I agree that Demon!Dean finished too soon, I know I saw it coming as soon as it was clear the 200th episode was EP#5 we were kinda screwed.  That they wanted to do a special episode was obvious.  When they said it was "musical-ish", that was the nail in the coffin. They HAD to have Sam and Dean working back together because a comedy episode with Dean as a demon -- especially as mean as Dean was (really? blaming Sam for Mary's death...perfectly demonic...well done Demon!Dean) -- was never going to work.  So...I get it. They also needed a reason to get the bro's working back together.  ALL major time separations have been off-screen. It's part of the show premise.  So...given they needed the boys back together and Dean not the villain... I think they've done a good job.

 

And I think "Ask Jeeves" sort of cements the theory that straying from the Dean Mark of Cain story was temporary.  Because the very first episode after #200, we've got Dean making his first kill and clearly triggering the MoC. So, reviewing the bidding:

EP1: Black - Dean is having a party with his bestie Crowley until Crowley starts to put the screws on him to get back into the whole "running hell" thing -- Dean is not down with that.

EP 2 Reichenbach - Dean needs to feed the MoC and accept the assignement to kill for Crowley, but not really, he kills the guy HE wants and officially breaks up w/ Crowley. Who takes the First Blade as payment for ratting Dean out to Sam.

EP 3: Dean REALLY doesn't want to be cured and nearly murders Sam while Sam tries the blood ritual.  And in lovely sequence, Crowley saves Cas, Cas saves Sam, and Sam saves Dean. Boo-yah!

EP 4: Rehabing for ~3 weeks (BTS data I think supports this but not said "in-show"), Dean's itching for a case. They go after Kate but Dean's hesitant to trigger the Mark (IMO but I think I'm right on this one), and Sam wants to be the one who makes the kills (cause he's worried too).

EP 5: #200th special. Sam ganks Callopie, brothers are re-invigorated back to "Saving People, Hunting Things, the Family Business".

EP 6: It's all fun and (Clue) games until Dean plugs the shifter.  Then it's evident the MoC has been triggered and worried face ensues on Sam.

 

From the big arc of the season (Mark of Cain), I gotta say I think they played it as best they could GIVEN the two decisions 1) have Sam and Dean back together and 2) a fan-happy #200. 

[amensisterfriend]

I enjoy S7 quite a bit--even though the Leviathans were rather boring--I just prefer the show when the boys are fighting the good fight together rather than fighting each other.

 

I was just confessing in the unpopular opinions thread that I actually kind of love S7. Yes, the plotting and pacing of the overall arc was lacking---but, IMO, it pretty much always is on this show :) My admittedly weird ranking of seasons, subject to ridiculously frequent change:

 

Season 1 (A little clunky at times, but I never love the boys' characterizations and their relationship quite as much as I do here. I also love the comparative lack of misery and the MotWs!)

Season 3 (It has two of my five favorite episodes of the series...and I adore Bela.)

Season 2  (So many great MotWs, though I really don't like the John grief, the road house, the psychic kids, etc. I just find S3 more rewatchable, though it's hard for me to justify why.)

Season 7 (I know...a bizarre choice! I just love so much about this season despite objectively knowing there are some definite missteps. Slash Fiction is one of my all-time favorites. I adore Plucky Pennywhistle. I even like Sam's hair here!) 

Season 5 

Season 4

Season 6

Season 8 

Season 9 

 

 

...So far I'd rank S10 just below (or maybe just above...?!) S6, but the writers still have plenty of time to either dazzle or appall us :) 

Edited November 28, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[amensisterfriend]

...Here's another question for you guys: Which women, if any, do you think Dean and Sam have had the best/worst chemistry with? I just rewatched the phenomenal What Is And Never Should Be, and I felt like Dean and NotEvenaRealPerson Carmen had more chemistry than he did with Lisa or Cassie. I did see a connection between him and Anna, though. And then there's a horrifically warped part of me that enjoys the idea of Dean and a semi-reformed (and alive!) Bela... :)