S03.E16: Dopplegangland

[Joe Hellandback]

Dopplegangland

The Good; The beginning of the father/daughter relationship between Faith and The Mayor, Anya comes into her own, VampWillow is a joy to behold, Wes actually makes himself useful, all of the library scenes are comedy classics and the lesbian subtext rapidly starts to become text. The great final gag.

The Bad; None, it's all fabulous

Best line; Willow (appreciating her cleavage in VampWillow's leathers) "Gosh, look at those!"

Character death; Poor Sandy, although

Spoiler

this isn't the last we'll see of her.

And VampWillow get's her dusty desserts back in the Wishworld.

Shot; VampWillow by real Willow.

Tied up; Nope although Vampwillow is caged

Knocked out; Anya and VampWillow

Women good/men bad; VampWillow; "Bitch!" (all in the delivery). The beginning of the epic hostility between Anya and Willow.

Jeez!; VampWillow killing Sandy is akin to snuff. Also her breaking of the other vamps fingers

Kinky dinky; How much time have you got? VampWillow has the hots for everything in sight, Xander, Willow, Sandy. She speaks of 'riding people in chains like ponys' (and I've met more than a few Alysson Hannigan fans over the years who would gladly volunteer). Plenty of naughty touching. Meanwhile Faith refers to 'all the screwing' at her hotel and the Mayor as 'Sugardaddy' but he turns down her advances, making her actually love him more. Best of all is the scary visual place of Willow and Oz playing 'Mistress of Pain' (I'm sure there's a fanfic somewhere?). Percy says he 'owns Willow's ass' but actually it seems to be the other way around. Willow says she feels like 'Dying a virgin'

Calling Captain Subtext; Will refers to snuggling and thinks her vamp self is 'kinda gay'. She also get's a curious look on her face at the thought of 'breeding' with Percy. VampWillow fancies everything in sight but her lusting after Cordelia's neck is especially interesting considering VampWill's already had a bite in The Wish. Willow's jealousy of Faith is very apparent. Note VampWill still loves Xander much in the same way Spike and Dru still love one another (maybe they were sired by Dru in the Wishverse?). Giles seems to have a very real affection for Will and as we'll later learn

Spoiler

she has the same for him.

We learn that VampWillow has a great deal in common with real Will.

 

Guantanamo Bay; Pretty much everyone is ruthless all around, the plan for luring the vamps out is masterful. Again Buffy shows her skill as a general and not just a fighter. The dodgy message of the week is to make athletes care about history tests you should beat them up?

Scoobies to the ER; Not this week

Questions and observations; The first appearance of Percy and D'Hoffryn. Devon back again, Oz and Angel seem to have a pretty good relationship to judge from their conversation. Faith continues her slide but can't kill for the Mayor yet. Wes saves Cordy for the first

Spoiler

but not last time.

According to Angel your human self influences your vamp self (as we see with Spike). Xander is oddly pleased at the thought of his vamp self. I figure that the Wishworld run's parallel to the real world but stops dead the moment Giles smashes the necklace. Anya is 1120 years old. When you look at the scene in the Bronze where VampWillow beats up Percy and Xander asks 'Is it a funny thing?' it looks as though it's Larry amidst the crowd but his name isn't in the titles

This ep features one of the most understated but important scenes in the whole series. VampWillow walks down Sunnydale mainstreet. In her world where Buffy never came to Sunnydale it's a bleak and deserted wasteland. In the real world, it's full of happy, laughing people. Sure people still die in Sunnydale but the difference one person can make! D'Hoffryn says Anya will live out her mortal life and die. Why does Anya go to Sunnydale High, did she create parents etc for herself as well? Or is she hiding out from those seeking vengeance? Buffy has lots of sympathy with Faith, Willow says that Buffy would never kill people but

Spoiler

she does.

 Some lovely moody music at the Bronze. Wonderful performance from Alysson Hannigan, the way she slips from real Willow to VampWillow and effortlessly back again then to real Willow pretending to be VampWillow and VampWillow pretending to be real Willow is just masterful.

The Bronze must go through pool cues at a fearsome rate. 'Dingoes ate my baby' apparently know only three chords but nowadays that doesn't seem to bar anyone from musical success.

Marks out of 10; 10/10, totally brilliant, possibly the best ep of Buffy ever?

[lembergwatcher]

Rewatched the episode recently.
Second encounter with Anya J. Still cunning and manipulative.

Spoiler

No signs of the future "working gal".

Had some fantasies 'bout VampWillow after first watching the ep back in my younger days. She's really... you know, cute. No wonder Aly wanted to keep the outfit.

Sometimes you need to punch a schoolboy to make a schoolboy learn.


Why didn't she consider siring Xander back since he was such a huge part of her un-life in the Wishverse?


And I really like the way normal Willow punched Anya during the confrontation at the Bronze (that was a nice hit, Will!). In fact both Willows seemed to share the same opinion of

Spoiler

Xander's future sweetheart.

One of (actual) Willow's many shining moments in S.03... IMO.

Edited August 26, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[lembergwatcher]

7 minutes ago, nosleepforme said:

I loved Anya in this episode, her scene when she asks for a beer is fantastic, but I agree that they started rewriting her after this episode, because in this episode she wasn't as clueless as  she was later on and she seemed to be able to manipulate people much more easily. It kind of would have been interesting to see this version of Anya throughout the series, but at the same time I think that Emma Caulfield is just such a gifted comedian, I love that she was able to provide a lot of humor in the later seasons. But her characterization throughout the show was definitely spotty at best.

Yeah, that whole "I'm eleven hundred and twenty years old! Just gimme a friggin' beer!" scene was helluva fun. I think this version of Anya could combine hell-bitchiness of a vengeance demon with occassional comic relief. You can be a gifted comedian and play nasty evil characters after all.

Spoiler

As for Anya's cluelessness starting from The Prom, I guess the whole thing will remain peermanently in the "Unresolved Mysteries of Buffyverse" list. And I would appreciate her sense of humour much more if half of her jokes throughout the series didn't deal with her murderous past in one way or another. Still cannot figure out, why in the world did the writers consider such things "funny" (and why the Scoobies were OK with it)? And it wasn't only Anya, Spike also liked to look at the past with "fun". If she was my prom date and talked about all those things all the time, I would, I don't know, fed her to Tucker's hellhounds. But JMO.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎26‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 1:03 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Rewatched the episode recently.
Second encounter with Anya J. Still cunning and manipulative.

  Hide contents

No signs of the future "working gal".

Had some fantasies 'bout VampWillow after first watching the ep back in my younger days. She's really... you know, cute. No wonder Aly wanted to keep the outfit.

Sometimes you need to punch a schoolboy to make a schoolboy learn.


Why didn't she consider siring Xander back since he was such a huge part of her un-life in the Wishverse?


And I really like the way normal Willow punched Anya during the confrontation at the Bronze (that was a nice hit, Will!). In fact both Willows seemed to share the same opinion of

  Hide contents

Xander's future sweetheart.

One of (actual) Willow's many shining moments in S.03... IMO.

Apparently AH went trick or treating as VampWillow which must have been a hell of a thing to have her knocking on your door! I always figured VampWillow would have sired Xander but she bugs out when the Slayer turns up. 

On ‎26‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 10:04 AM, nosleepforme said:

I think his humanness just annoyed her too much in that moment. And then she seemed to be more into the idea of turning her human self into a vampire.

 

My favorite moment of this episode is when Cordelia and VampWillow have their talk in the library. The way Alyson Hannigan rolls her eyes at her was just perfect. I kinda wish they had paired Willow and Cordelia up more in the early seasons. They were always a fun dynamic, even thinking about how they were stuck in the janitor's closet in School Hard.

 

Doppelgangland for me is one of the funniest episodes of the series and I think if I ever were to try to hook a friend on the show with a stand alone, I'd probably show Doppelgangland, Earshot and Hush to them. Though I don't find Hush as representative of the show as the other two episodes.

 

I loved Anya in this episode, her scene when she asks for a beer is fantastic, but I agree that they started rewriting her after this episode, because in this episode she wasn't as clueless as  she was later on and she seemed to be able to manipulate people much more easily. It kind of would have been interesting to see this version of Anya throughout the series, but at the same time I think that Emma Caulfield is just such a gifted comedian, I love that she was able to provide a lot of humor in the later seasons. But her characterization throughout the show was definitely spotty at best. 

 

The girl who gets bit by Willow in the Bronze

  Hide contents

shows up again in season five.

Which I think is very random and I wonder if that's just a coincidence or whether

  Hide contents

they always planned to bring her back.

For me, Earshot is just the perfect ep for a newbie to convince them of the series greatness, it's like Blink for Dr Who. 

On ‎26‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 10:32 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Yeah, that whole "I'm eleven hundred and twenty years old! Just gimme a friggin' beer!" scene was helluva fun. I think this version of Anya could combine hell-bitchiness of a vengeance demon with occassional comic relief. You can be a gifted comedian and play nasty evil characters after all.

  Hide contents

As for Anya's cluelessness starting from The Prom, I guess the whole thing will remain peermanently in the "Unresolved Mysteries of Buffyverse" list. And I would appreciate her sense of humour much more if half of her jokes throughout the series didn't deal with her murderous past in one way or another. Still cannot figure out, why in the world did the writers consider such things "funny" (and why the Scoobies were OK with it)? And it wasn't only Anya, Spike also liked to look at the past with "fun". If she was my prom date and talked about all those things all the time, I would, I don't know, fed her to Tucker's hellhounds. But JMO.

But she's so gorgeous!

I agree she's not consistent (people complained about Cameron on TSCC for the same reason) but I think sometimes she's putting up a pretence and sometimes it's the result of her magic which fades over time?

[Halting Hex]

I promise I'm not going to post all 144 promos.  But, still:

[lembergwatcher]

Bringing both Vamp!Willow and Vamp!Xander from the Wishverse would have been far more entertaining IMO. I'd like to see Vamp!Xander kicking Oz's ass or torturing Cordelia a little :)

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 9:42 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Bringing both Vamp!Willow and Vamp!Xander from the Wishverse would have been far more entertaining IMO. I'd like to see Vamp!Xander kicking Oz's ass or torturing Cordelia a little :)

I think one or the other works best and vampWillow was by far the most popular. 

[lembergwatcher]

I dunno what I like the most about the "sending Vamp!Willow back" scene: the way Xander tries to "flirt" with his Wishverse!Will or Angel's facial expression while he's probably watching those two.

Edited March 16, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

From Jenny Trout:

Quote

In a sexually charged, sapphic show of dominance, Willow picks one girl from the crowd (who looks an awful lot like Buffy, if any of you ship the two and want ammo) and eats her.

Really?  I mean, I'm glad of "ammo" and I think Megan Gray is sexy af:

But I've never noticed a particularly striking resemblance to Smidge:

Am I just blind here?  Questions? Comments?

Jenny also points out how funny it is that Cordelia apparently paused in giving "Willow" her "Ethics of Boyfriend-Stealing" lecture and made herself some tea (or coffee), helping herself to one of Giles's mugs, no less:

And "Courtney", a commenter on Jenny's site, noticed something that I never did:

Quote

Can we give Wesley props for being the only person in the history of the show that holds a cross the SMART way? All the other characters always wrap their fingers around the bottom of the cross and on multiple occasions the crosses get easily knocked away by vamps. But Wesley is smart enough to wrap his fingers around the cross where the T lines intersect, which is just overall a ton smarter, because it’s harder for a vamp to knock out of your hand. Wesley isn’t usually very good with demons and such, so it’s kind of a big deal.

Yay, Wes!  Well-trained, apparently.

[lembergwatcher]

11 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Am I just blind here?  Questions? Comments?

Apparently not just you. I can't see any physical resemblance between Sandy and Buffy either. No matter how I try. Or maybe I'm blind too.  

And as far as I remember Vamp!Willow never met Buffy in the Wishverse (until the big fight in the factory) so I don't understand what exactly her sudden interest in Sandy supposed to mean within the context of Buffy/Willow 'shipping?

Also there's plenty of "sapphic show of dominance" in a scene between Vamp!Willow and Human!Willow. What does it tell us? And what about some groping and dominance between Vamp!Willow and Human!Xander?..

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

Vamp!Willow never met Buffy in the Wishverse (until the big fight in the factory) so I don't understand what exactly her sudden interest in Sandy supposed to mean within the context of Buffy/Willow 'shipping?

I guess it would indicate (if there was a physical resemblance) that Buffy fits in Willow's physical "type".  But I think Willow can find Buffy hot without Buffy having to be in some particular "type"…IMO Willow found Faith damn hot (she certainly was eager to play the helpful tour guide), and the Slayers, while both sexy, are hardly twins.

And Willow works more on an emotional level than a purely-physical one, anyway.  That's why it took over a decade for her to start getting along with Cordelia (and pretty much never with Anya) despite both CC and Emma being as pretty as several pictures and why her interest in Faith quickly curdles while she stays loyal to Buffy.  Takes more to win Willow's heart than a nice set of curves, IMO.

Besides, Vamp!Willow tells Buffy "I don't like you", flat-out.  So her seeking out Sandy hardly appears indicative of buried Buffy-lust, alleged resemblance or not.

Not all "ammo" is great ammo, I'll admit.

[Loandbehold]

21 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I guess it would indicate (if there was a physical resemblance) that Buffy fits in Willow's physical "type".  But I think Willow can find Buffy hot without Buffy having to be in some particular "type"…IMO Willow found Faith damn hot (she certainly was eager to play the helpful tour guide), and the Slayers, while both sexy, are hardly twins.

Looks are but one way someone could be Willow's "type." It's possible that, to paraphrase Sid the Dummy: Buffy and Faith are both strong, athletic, limber... (goes off into his own world) nubile...

Granted, once Faith starts trying to kill her friends, even if she is Willow's "type," Will's a strong enough person to reject her surface attraction.

Spoiler

Of course, all this could change next season and Will could find herself attracted to a completely different "type" of girl.

[Halting Hex]

So, it turns out that Buffyworld is now of the past. 😞

So, at least I'm being motivated to save as much of the site as I can (via Wayback), especially the shooting scripts/transcripts.  (Easier to have them on the drive than need to Google, I guess.)

So, I'm finding a few jewels in the scripts.  I mean, I remembered Joss's wonderful stage direction when Willow walks into the library here, very much "not a vampire"—"Buffy has risen more slowly, eyes wet, fearing the hope in her breast."  Always a favorite. ❤️

But I'd forgotten this gem from a little later in the scene:

"Buffy touches Willow's hair, still so amazed and grateful she's here."

It's called "love", Joss.  Four simple and wonderful letters.  Thank you.

Spoiler

Certain later things aside…

 

[lembergwatcher]

On 1/15/2020 at 12:19 PM, Halting Hex said:

It's called "love", Joss.  Four simple and wonderful letters.

It's a good thing Angel wasn't there. Because jealous vampires can be very mean sometimes.

Spoiler

It could've been Willow getting punched in the face in the following ep...

 

[Halting Hex]

Well, Angel had warned Willow about his jealousy, back in Lie to Me.  So hopefully she's aware enough to stay safe.

Spoiler

And duck, if necessary.

 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 1/16/2020 at 11:48 AM, lembergwatcher said:

It's a good thing Angel wasn't there. Because jealous vampires can be very mean sometimes.

  Reveal spoiler

It could've been Willow getting punched in the face in the following ep...

 

True but he might dig girl on girl action, in fact very probably to judge by TGIQ

[lembergwatcher]

On 5/7/2019 at 7:48 AM, Halting Hex said:

Jenny also points out how funny it is that Cordelia apparently paused in giving "Willow" her "Ethics of Boyfriend-Stealing" lecture and made herself some tea (or coffee), helping herself to one of Giles's mugs, no less:

Funny how Cordelia is apparently so afraid of Willow the other girl has to end up literally locked in a cage so Cordy can (finally!) start lecturing her about "Boyfriend-Stealing". Well, of course that's not real Willow staring hungrily at Queen C's neck from behind bars, but does anyone notice the pattern?

Looks like Cordelia has learned the hard way after the whole "del[iver] thing" in The Harvest (her poor academic performance wrt computers continues to haunt her later, as of The Dark Age) and tries to avoid the direct confrontation with "that Willow freak" even though she's got a right to be mad at the redhead as much as she's mad at her former boyfriend.

Speaking of whom... Isn't Xander being harmless and thus an easy target constitutes another reason why Cordy makes him a sole object of her post-Fluke rage for most of the time? Let's face it: Cordelia likes to pick on Xander because it's totally safe. He's not Harmony or the flock of ex-Cordettes who can turn her school life into living hell and therefore there's no need for Cordelia to watch her mouth the way she did whenever Harmony & Co put her down (repeatedly) in The Wish. She tries not to piss Willow and Buffy off too much. Like I said she needs "Willow" to be restrained to start the long-awaited conversation. But since Xander is so consumed with post-Fluke guilt trip, there'll be no repercussions for verbaly abusing or humiliating him (The Zeppo, Bad Girls). Yes, he can answer back occasionaly, but that never stops Queen C. 

So, Cordy likes to put other people down when she knows she'll get away with it (dunno whether she would've managed to intimidate one of the Gorch bros in 3x05 if there was no Buffy in the same room).

And of course how can I forget about this:

Quote

WESLEY Yes, well... Was that vampire...

CORDELIA Willow. (genuine sadness) They got Willow. (over it) So, you doing anything tonight?

? I guess it took Cordy less than five friggin' seconds to "get over" Willow's (presumed) death here. Such a "humanitarian", my ass.

[Halting Hex]

6 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I guess it took Cordy less than five friggin' seconds to "get over" Willow's (presumed) death here. Such a "humanitarian", my ass.

Yeah, not a great moment.  Especially when you remember Cordelia being emotional on seeing Coma!Willow in Becoming, Part 2, and being angry at herself for running from the fight, no matter that it was both logical and on Xander's specific orders.

Gee, I guess Joss Whedon should be mad at whoever wrote this one for forgetting/minimizing the C/W bond shown in Becoming.  (Including Cordy being as concerned as Oz and Xander were about whether Willow is strong enough to attempt the spell and only being persuaded by [in a cut line] the promise of giving Willow a make-over.)

Except, of course, Joss wrote this, too.  It's a fine, fine episode (top 10 for the series, IMO), but that "over it in 5 seconds" bit holds it back, I feel.

(It's not even logically consistent with what was going on only a few minutes previously in this episode.  Would Cordelia have spent what seems a considerable amount of time "discussing" "ethics" with "Willow", if she ultimately didn't care what Willow thought about her opinions?  Seems unlikely.  Even if she's just using Willow as a means to vent about Xander [as she did in Phases and Anne], even that's a relationship of sorts, thrown away for cheap joke here.)

And of course, the wandering Vamp-Willow is a menace to people's lives, as Wesley, a responsible Watcher, should know.  Specifically, it's a menace to people who might mistake it for Willow.  Such as Xander.  And, her heartbreak aside, you'd have to work very hard to convince me that Cordelia wants him eaten.  But I don't exactly see any attempt to warn the others…

Damn, Joss is really working hard to sell that "she certainly has reverted to type" swill about Cordelia from Amends, isn't he?  Who wrote that steaming pile, again?  Oh…yeah.  Sigh.

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by Halting Hex

[watcher1006]

I have some problems with this Willow-centered episode and what they did with her. For example at the end, does Willow have no remorse for the chaos she unleashed when she tried the spell with Anya? She made a totally innocent young woman either die or turned into a vampire and nearly unleashed a "Wish" style takeover of Sunnydale. Her flippant dialogue with Buffy at the end after having Percy suck up to her seems out of place, but I suppose Joss was just having fun with the character.

As for Cordelia, I don't know if the writers of the series really knew what to do with her after her breakup with Xander. Here she seems to largely revert to her early Season 1 persona. Of Cordelia's stint in the late Season 3 episodes I like her in "Gingerbread" but she's not too prominent otherwise. I guess it was time for Charisma Carpenter to move on.

[Halting Hex]

5 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

does Willow have no remorse for the chaos she unleashed when she tried the spell with Anya?

I think "double-guilt coupons" is pretty self-explanatory.  Willow not only feels guilty about her own actions, but even those of her vampiric döppelgänger…and not merely because she was tricked into bringing VampWill across (which was an accident, even on Anya's part; it's not as if Willow intended it or either could have foreseen it), but because she worries that said vampire's actions are indicative of her (Willow's) own inner nature, all evidence to the contrary.

Quote

WILLOW:  I mean, what does that say about me?

BUFFY:  It doesn't say anything about you.

That's a good start, but perhaps Buffy needed to give Willow the full Ford story here: "You die, and a demon sets up shop in your body.  And it walks and it talks and it remembers your life…but it's not you."  No more than VampJesse, who had zero interest in "bud"-ing it up with Xander across eternity ("Cordelia's gonna live forever.  You're not." [/cut line])  was Jesse.

Willow wasn't looking at herself.  She was looking at the thing that killed her.

Quote

Her flippant dialogue with Buffy at the end after having Percy suck up to her seems out of place

It's one line.  A whole three words. ("Nine sound good?")   She'd just gloomed through the vast majority of the tag, despite having no logical reason for doing so.  ("I know we have a big nothing in common.") I don't begrudge her a brief lightening.  (And I think "flip" is an overstatement.)

Quote

As for Cordelia, I don't know if the writers of the series really knew what to do with her after her breakup with Xander. Here she seems to largely revert to her early Season 1 persona. Of Cordelia's stint in the late Season 3 episodes I like her in "Gingerbread" but she's not too prominent otherwise. I guess it was time for Charisma Carpenter to move on.

Spoiler for future Cordelia developments (I don't know if you've seen past this):

Spoiler

The Angel spinoff was supposed to be a mid-season premiere (it was announced as such at the June 1998 Television Critics' Association conference), so Angel and Cordelia should have already been gone.  So yeah, CC was spinning her wheels for a while there.  But now that she's able to be reintegrated with the group, starting next episode, things IMO work better.

All that said, welcome! Always glad of new visitors.  

(Do we have a Meet Market/Off-Topic thread around here?  I went looking for one, but I missed it if it's there.  In addition to talking to the new visitor, I've been forcing myself to finally sit through the final two seasons of How I Met Your Mother [I dropped the series after episode 8.02 "The Pre-Nup", where the writers tried to meta-justify the descent into the cartoon garbage it had become] and I could certainly use a good vent or seven.  Any more of this crap and I might jump off of the Bow Bridge…)

Edited February 13, 2020 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

On 2/13/2020 at 4:32 PM, watcher1006 said:

I have some problems with this Willow-centered episode and what they did with her. For example at the end, does Willow have no remorse for the chaos she unleashed when she tried the spell with Anya? She made a totally innocent young woman either die or turned into a vampire and nearly unleashed a "Wish" style takeover of Sunnydale. Her flippant dialogue with Buffy at the end after having Percy suck up to her seems out of place, but I suppose Joss was just having fun with the character.

As for Cordelia, I don't know if the writers of the series really knew what to do with her after her breakup with Xander. Here she seems to largely revert to her early Season 1 persona. Of Cordelia's stint in the late Season 3 episodes I like her in "Gingerbread" but she's not too prominent otherwise. I guess it was time for Charisma Carpenter to move on.

I would say no, like Giles/Xander she did it out of ignorance and can't be held accountable.

[Halting Hex]

On 1/15/2020 at 5:19 AM, Halting Hex said:

But I'd forgotten this gem [of Wiffy-ness in the shooting script]

And another one:

Quote

ANGLE:  BUFFY [during the climactic fight, as Willow is being menaced]

Sees Willow's plight. This gives her the strength to kill Alphonse (possibly with a pool cue).

Love makes you do the awesome.  Awww. ❤️

Why Joss can't simply acknowledge that Buffy needs Her Willow in ways that aren't just BFF-Y, that I can't say. Even if he does end the episode by having Buffy ask Willow out on a date 😉

 

Edited May 24, 2020 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

5 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Why Joss can't simply acknowledge that Buffy needs Her Willow in ways that aren't just BFF-Y, that I can't say.

Apparently Buffy needs her Willow so much she doesn't bother calling or writing for three straight months knowing full well the aforementioned Willow have suffered a serious injury during the latest crisis and was in the wheelchair the last time Buffy saw her. And then her need for Willow doesn't prevent Buffy from letting Willow's kidnapper go before confirming redhead is alive and well... Strange kind of love, I must say...

True, Buffy could have had (and probably had) some lusty thoughts about the other girl but I don't remember her putting the whole Sunnydale (and the world) at risk in the name of Willow. 

Spoiler

Twice.

Then again lusting and loving is not the same thing. So, yes, Buffy does love Willow. But not as much as some 200-plus-something-years-old vamps with stupid haircuts.

[Halting Hex]

13 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I don't remember her putting the whole Sunnydale (and the world) at risk in the name of Willow

Well, she did throw away her popularity and her dreams of a normal life on the very first day she met the other girl (WttH) and then literally die for Willow (Prophecy Girl), so it's not as if Buffy hasn't made certain sacrifices for the redhead.  Yes, her blind spot about Spike possibly harming Willow in both School Hard and Lovers Walk is annoying, but perhaps she's just so overjoyed to see Spike leave that she forgets the other relevant details.  I could understand that, even if it's unfair to Willow (and Cordelia in 2.03 and Xander in 3.08).  A Spike-free existence certainly does have its charms.

When exactly does she "put Sunnydale at risk" wrt Angel?  I mean, yes, she's slow to recapture him, but that's a character growth issue; it's not as if she ends Innocence going "Be free, Forehead! Run wild!"  When push comes to sword in Becoming, she gets it done.  (Heheheh.  Suck it, Brood Boy.)

Spoiler

And yeah, "drink me" is questionable, but she's protecting an "innocent" there.  Angel only got shot because Faith wanted to put Buffy off her game.  Ultimately, she's taking a heroic risk there…as annoying as the "orgasm kicks" may be.  Remember, it turns out she's working off of bad information, since "drain" the blood of a Slayer turns out to be nothing more than hype.  She risked her life because she trusted an ally and didn't want him to die because she was scared.  It's not that different from her knocking out Giles in PG, I can't say.  

 

[lembergwatcher]

23 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

When exactly does she "put Sunnydale at risk" wrt Angel?  I mean, yes, she's slow to recapture him, but that's a character growth issue; it's not as if she ends Innocence going "Be free, Forehead! Run wild!"  When push comes to sword in Becoming, she gets it done.

It would've been so much better if Buffy's "character growth issue" didn't lead to multiple (unnecessary) deaths. And yes, that's exactly how she ends Innocence. Buffy does her job in Becoming because, despite all her feelings for Forehead, she's not ready to be sucked into hell with the rest of the world and because Xander helps her do the right thing. Still Becoming is a small consolation for Theresa, Jenny, Doug or that "quaint little shop girl" whose heart became Drusilla's present for Valentine's Day. Because most of those deaths could have been avoided.  

[How long can a vampire exist without feeding? For Angel had to kill quite a lot to continue his unliving AFAIK. So that's how Buffy put Sunnydale at risk, issues or no issues.] 

Not to mention that Becoming is as relevant as Willow's feelings for Xander or Xander's confession to Coma!Willow at the end of season 2. Because, you know, Angel is undead and well, and there are still no guarantees his soul is permanent. So the way I see it Buffy's love for Angel (i.e. her readiness to turn a blind eye on many things) is a little bit stronger than her feelings for Willow.

Edited May 25, 2020 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

2 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

How long can a vampire exist without feeding?

According to Whistler in Becoming, Part 1, Stinky!Angel is surviving on "a rat a month".  So Enyos and the girl Angel drains outside the Bronze in Passion, and Travis and his neatly-arranged children (we don't see First!Travis until Amends, but his clothing marks him as an Angelus 2.0 victim) and the Xander-shaped sacrifice were less of a necessity than a pleasure, IMO.

But again, I'm not here to watch Buffy is Perfect and is Going to Marry Willow!  (Much though I'd probably enjoy that series, too.)  She has to grow to meet her challenges (her romantic attachment to Angel is all she had left by the time he pulled that sword out of Acathla, as Whistler pointed out) and it's not surprising she makes some mistakes along the way.

Let's not forget, her very next line after "give me time" is "You must be so disappointed in me" (said teary-eyed to Giles in the Citroën).  Followed by "But this is all my fault."  Her failure is tragic, yes.  But that's what drama is made of.

Spoiler

I'm on team "Buffy isn't dead to me until she threatens to kill her friends to give Dawn five more minutes of life."  But JMO.

Quote

BUFFY:  You must be so disappointed in me.

GILES:  Bollocks.  Frankly, I'm looking forward to being single again.

Okay, so perhaps Giles isn't quite that forgiving.  But still.

ETA:  Since this post should have some content that's from the relevant episode…how do you feel about these cut lines from the script?

Quote

XANDER: [Willow's "death"] is all my fault.

GILES:  How do you figure that?

XANDER:  I don't know…statistical probability?

On the one hand, I can see that "random zings at Xander that even Joss is basically admitting he can't logically justify" could be rather annoying.

But OTOH, it is pretty funny, IMO.

And on the third hand (okay, I'm cheating and using Ziggy's paw, but anyways), it does fit with Xander's "lack of self-esteem" character arc, so…

"Thoughts?  Questions?"

(I also would have enjoyed seeing Devon asking Angel to be the Dingoes' roadie, but that's less-essential, I'll allow.)

Edited May 26, 2020 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

21 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

On the one hand, I can see that "random zings at Xander that even Joss is basically admitting he can't logically justify" could be rather annoying.

But OTOH, it is pretty funny, IMO.

And on the third hand (okay, I'm cheating and using Ziggy's paw, but anyways), it does fit with Xander's "lack of self-esteem" character arc, so…

Things don't work between Joss and logic. Most of the time. And why should he try to justify anything if fandom likes it anyway? It's annoying and funny at the same time, I'd say. 

It's good you mentioned Xander's "lack of self-esteem" character arc. Where is he supposed to get the said self-esteem, that's another question. On the one hand Xander's words prove he still loves and cares about Willow (which is nice and warms my 'shippers' heart). OTOH those words are strange since Xander is nothing more than "a guy from Willow's past" (Amends) while Willow is Oz's responsibility. 

Spoiler

After all, it's Oz whom Buffy assures Willow will be alive and well after the girl ends up in captivity in Choices.

 

[Halting Hex]

Re:  [spoilered thing]

Well, Oz is Willow's boyfriend.  It would be a little odd for Buffy to snub him to discuss Willow's situation in that scene with Xander, instead.  Especially since both boys were present.

I grant you, back in Homecoming, Buffy paid so little heed to Xander's relationship that he had to remind her of his excellent reason for supporting Cordelia's campaign instead of Buffy's:  "She's my girlfriend".  But that just shows that Buffy's teachable.  That's a good, right?

[lembergwatcher]

Well, yeah. He is. Boyfriend, I mean. It's just Xander's self-deprecation ("it's all my fault") indicates that, even though Oz is a boyfriend, Willow's safety for some reason continues to be Xander's responsibility.

[lembergwatcher]

Wanted to say that a couple of times, so... Doppelgangland happens to be the last episode written and directed by Joss Whedon that I generally like. 

Spoiler

I may like some bits and pieces of other Joss' episodes (The Freshman, Hush, Restless, The Body), but only bits and pieces. Most of what Whedon wrote & directed post-season 3 plain sucks (Family, The Gift, OMWF, Chosen). JMO, of course.

 

[Halting Hex]

On 10/7/2020 at 7:50 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Wanted to say that a couple of times, so... Doppelgangland happens to be the last episode written and directed by Joss Whedon that I generally like. 

  Hide contents

I may like some bits and pieces of other Joss' episodes (The Freshman, Hush, Restless, The Body), but only bits and pieces. Most of what Whedon wrote & directed post-season 3 plain sucks (Family, The Gift, OMWF, Chosen). JMO, of course.

 

I can't go quite that far

Spoiler

…but I agree more than disagree.

Family, OMwF, Lessons, and Chosen are irredeemable crap.  (Chosen is the worst episode of the series, IMO..)

The Gift may be crap, but it is "very pretty crap", to quote SNeaker's wonderfully pithy review.  So points for that, and for Spike's offer of "courage" to Willow.

The Body is about 40% of a good episode (SMG's performance saves Act I, although the EMTs just leaving Joyce's corpse is ridiculous, and if you could get rid of Anya's fucking Dinner Theatre Speech, Act III would be lovely ["Xander decided that he blames the wall"]), but Acts II and IV are utterly useless and there's no actual plot.

Graduation Day Part 2 is just a lot of noise without much resonance (I could definitely live without the Bangel "erotica" and I only truly cherish some of the Willow moments [and "she won't be a vampire?" isn't even in the script!]), but there's nothing really to complain about, except for Angel being such an asshole that he tells Buffy he's leaving at the worst moment possible, and hey…have you met Angel?  I mean Joss actually pulls off a variant of "That's so funny I forgot to laugh", so points for that, at least.

Restless is just Joss showing off and it's definitely over-rated, but that's mostly because of Joss-holes reacting to later attempts to make it relevant (Spike wearing the coat in Tabula Rasa) by claiming brilliant "foreshadowing", when in fact the problem is that most of the character points are dropped as we go forward.  Where's Giles worrying he's sacrificed his private life for Buffy?  Where's Buffy feeling that she doesn't really know Riley?  Where's a deeper exploration of Xander's abuse issues?  Where's Willow fearing that Buffy is put off by her bisexuality?  (Which is ridiculous when we just had that arc, but I digress…)  Where's the four being closer because they've shared consciousness?  But the episode itself is still well-crafted, so I don't really object.

Who Are You is, as I've written, Joss catching Marti's disease and just wanting that Fuffy-beats-up-her-own-body bit and not much caring how he gets there.  And as noted by JonW81 years ago, it's stupid that Fuffy spends her time messing with people (Riley, Spike, Tara) that she barely knows and not the W/X/G that she actually hates.  (Hell, once Baith is safely in custody, why doesn't Fuffy just go back to the basic "kill Joyce and stuff her in a closet until after I've blown town" plan?  Imagine leaving that "gag gift" for Buffy to [eventually] find…) But, all that said, Joss tells his story and he tells it well.  (Annoying though it is that he wastes it on a guest character we won't see on this series for three more years, and Xander is made even more irrelevant than usual.)  And SMG and ED nail the body-switch very nicely.

The Freshman is certainly repetitive in Act 1 (Buffy feels lost?  Yeah, we get it.  We GET it, honestly) and it's ridiculous that the vampires miss the ONE BOOK in Eddie's room that clues Buffy in and Joss is overly jokey…but damn it, some of those jokes really land, from "painful nowning process" to "the evil is this way?"  And Willow nearly melting down when she thinks they've failed Buffy (and Xander healing her, and the comedy of Xander's awkward Kathy-hug and confusion about hugging Oz) is a thing of beauty.

Quote

WILLOW:  How can you be so calm?
OZ (don't you know me?):  Long, arduous hours of practice.

SUNDAY:  No, the fact that you're fat makes you look fat.  The dress just makes you look purple.

BUFFY:  I think you're gonna find, in the three seconds it'll take you to turn to dust, that the one mistake you made was touching my stuff.

Yeah, I'm in such a good mood I even forgive Professor Riegert and Olivia their one-dimensional existences.  And Riley that unfortunate haircut.

And finally, while Hush may be "only a stunt" and has flaws that will become gaping sores as we go on (Tara, Spike being allowed to walk around free, segmented storytelling), Joss manages to surmount his challenge (half an episode without his trademark dialogue) and work his theme about communication and relationships, and invent a new fairy tale, and be very nicely creepy as he set out to be.  I will maintain to my dying day that Reptile Boy is a better episode…but that doesn't mean that I can't enjoy this one, too.

(Okay, the Xander fans might not like his offering his "moist and delicious" butt to Spike, but come on.  Xander just chained Spike up, so we know he isn't sincere;  he's cockteasing the scrawny vamp, that's all.  Where Xander screws up is that he somehow misses that Spike is obviously a bottom…Spike dgaf about your ass, Xan, he just wants you to pound his.  Did Larry teach you nothing?  Sigh.)

 

Edited October 9, 2020 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

Some million dollar questions. Which one of the Scoobies had the "honour" of undressing Vamp!Willow and changing her into True!Willow's fuzzy clothes? First of all, I kinda doubt any of W/X vampiric doppelgangers had a habit of wearing underwear, thus the nudity factor. Or did Will give the vamp her underwear too? Then why should Willow agree to wear the "other Willow's" outfit since her vampiric alter ego hardly had any other clothes to wear or liked showering too often? I mean, it's very unhygienic to wear the things the walking corpse once wore, there could've been blood, dirt, bugs and maggots and I don't think the gang had enough time or the means to sanitize the whole thing. Yeah, Willow could have burned her old clothing "borrowed" by Vamp!Willow quite easily. But what about possible infection, diseases and the grossness of the situation as a whole? Any ideas?   

[Joe Hellandback]

On 12/4/2020 at 11:50 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Some million dollar questions. Which one of the Scoobies had the "honour" of undressing Vamp!Willow and changing her into True!Willow's fuzzy clothes? First of all, I kinda doubt any of W/X vampiric doppelgangers had a habit of wearing underwear, thus the nudity factor. Or did Will give the vamp her underwear too? Then why should Willow agree to wear the "other Willow's" outfit since her vampiric alter ego hardly had any other clothes to wear or liked showering too often? I mean, it's very unhygienic to wear the things the walking corpse once wore, there could've been blood, dirt, bugs and maggots and I don't think the gang had enough time or the means to sanitize the whole thing. Yeah, Willow could have burned her old clothing "borrowed" by Vamp!Willow quite easily. But what about possible infection, diseases and the grossness of the situation as a whole? Any ideas?   

Well I assume Buffy and Willow for propriety's sake?

[Halting Hex]

I'm assuming VampWillow wears something underneath, because otherwise…chafing.  And, as what lies beneath stays beneath, no need to swap out the undergarments.

Unless Willow really is a "method" actress, that is.  But given her being so uncomfortable at the idea of "snuggling" with her vampiric self, I think she might restrain such inclinations.  

(Also, people's lives in danger, etc.)

[lembergwatcher]

To paraphrase Absalom from When She Was Bad, chafing is for the living... 

[Halting Hex]

Well, we've seen that Angel sweats (Faith, Hope & Trick, for example), so unless those glands are only activated by his soul, I'd say VampWill should be careful about her tender areas.  Yes, I'm sure they heal more quickly, but (to quote Xander in re neural clamping) "sounds skippable" nonetheless.

[lembergwatcher]

Sentimental little troll?
I wonder who this baby on the photograph is?

Is it Snyder himself during his "age of innocence"? Or his godchild? Nephew or niece? Or is it Snyder's baby? If so, than Snyder's dating history gradually improved after he'd graduated from high school. I wonder whether taking Tae Kwon Do at the Y had something to do with it? If Snyder's wife existed, it would've been quite interesting to take a look at their interactions.  

We will never know unfortunately. OTOH I remember there was a piece of fanfiction back in the day about Principal Snyder having a date with 

Spoiler

a lunchlady from Earshot.

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

Hmm, interesting.  At least it's a step up from Bob Flutie having a picture of…himself.  (If people want to know what you look like, Bob, you're right behind the desk.  And if you need a reminder, they've invented mirrors.  Honestly.)

Back to previously-discussed matters:  Giles calling Willow "much, much better" than Xander is a bit of a zing, right?  Is that why Xander nails him with "can you believe the Watcher's Council let this guy go?" at the end of the scene?  Was Xander just quietly waiting to pay Giles back?  Don't mess with the X-Man, Tweedy!

And I really do have to pay homage to David Boreanaz for playing Angel as so confused in the "Willow's dead…hey, Willow" scene that he takes the issue from "Something…very strange is going on" territory to "Damn.  It's a good thing Angel's pretty, I guess."  Because, where most actors might want to "protect" their character, David is willing to have Angel be notably slower to catch on than anybody else involved.  (See also Angel being totally lost when he encounters Private Harris and the Duchess of Buffonia in Halloween.)

I mean, I'm not even sure that Angel's grasped the "there are two Willows?" concept, much less started searching for explanations.  Boreanaz seems to be having Angel wonder if that was really Willow he saw at the Bronze.  And if it was Willow, how did she beat him to the Library?  (He's pretty sure he's faster, and she doesn't have a car.)  And if that was Willow and this is also Willow, does this mean Willow found a way to stop being a vampire?  Can you even do that?  How come nobody told him?

Funnier and funnier, the more I look at it.  Good work by David being willing to sacrifice for the good of the show.

(Unless we're in "Damn, it's a good thing David's pretty" territory, I suppose.  But that's a hair too mean, IMO.)

[lembergwatcher]

While watching this ep back in the day I got a feeling Angel tried his hardest to show his grief over Willow's supposed death, but the tears just didn't come... It would've been quite interesting to watch the interaction between Buffy and Xander while on their way to the library to deliver the bad news..

[Halting Hex]

Quote

BUFFY:  I don't know.  Different circumstances, [Faith] could be me.

WILLOW: No way.  Some people just don't have that in them.

I know that Whedon was nowhere near as responsible for the B/F subtext as David Greenwalt ("Hungry?" "Starving") and Doug Petrie ("I am going out with someone tonight") were, but I can't help looking at that exchange and wondering  how Buffy would react to Willow's certainty that the two slayers were fundamentally different if Buffy and Faith really had been Fuffying it up all over town.

(Of course, this might mean that Aly would have to play some of Willow's lines a little differently ["…and I think I'm kinda gay!"] so best not to mess with success, most likely.  I was merely quoting that exchange elsewhere, and the thought amused me.)

Edited March 5 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

What's with those cages? What were they made of that supernatural beings who are supposedly ten times stronger than your average human (e. g. Angel in What's My Line, Vamp!Willow here) cannot just break them? Why not use some extra force and break free instead of listening to Cordelia bitching? Just curious.
 

It never ceases to amaze me how Buffyverse characters lose/gain their powers without any explanation when it's convenient for the plot... Vamp!Willow can beat up three bigger guys without breaking a sweat, yet some old library cage is all of a sudden an impassable obstacle for her. How is this possible?

[Halting Hex]

Clearly high-quality steel, cunningly disguised as ordinary wire mesh.  Giles has to make sure prying eyes (Snyder, etc.) think his book cage isn't any different from a standard one, but given that it takes four hyena-creatures to free Xander in The Pack and continued pounding by Rage!Pete to bust it loose in Beauty and the Beasts, clearly that's the good stuff there.

(Eyghon!Philip does eventually bust the door all by his lonesome in The Dark Age, but that took repeated efforts.  And, in the realm of practical politics, VampWillow didn't get any time alone to try the lock before Cordelia showed up. Given that VW had first-hand experience with the tranq-gun that she knows is just on the other side of the counter, I can see her trying deceit instead of head-on violence.)

But, wait, you say!  If that cage is so tough, how does Giles pop the lock with only a few whacks from his crossbow in The Wish?  But, you see, that was an alternate reality.  Alt-Giles was too busy popping pills and wondering why Buffy never showed to upgrade that cage. [/wank]

Edited September 24 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

10 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Clearly high-quality steel, cunningly disguised as ordinary wire mesh.  Giles has to make sure prying eyes (Snyder, etc.) think his book cage isn't any different from a standard one

I guess Giles and Willy the Snitch have used the services of the same manufacturer then...

Edited September 22 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

Well, Angel's a wuss.  (Or Kendra had already done such damage that he would have needed to gather his strength to attack the cage, but by then the rising sun was already sapping his energy, so…)
 

Wankety-wankety wank…