Benjen: First Of His Name And Of Missing Men

[gingerella]

So, if you are like me, and have been wondering Every.Single.Episode. since S1, if this is the season, the episode, where we FINALLY find out what the hell happened to Uncle Benjen, Ranger of the Night's Watch, then this is the place to commiserate on whether or not A Show will ever actually, yanno, give A Viewer some resolution on this dude.

Spitball away, my friends, spitball away...

[MrMicrophone]

ging,

By now, I fear, something horrible has happened to Benjen. He went north of the wall --

and Thorne says what happened to him, when he went north of the wall (for a two week mission, that turned into six months).

 

Dammit. A Show gives clues! If Thorne could survive that long, Benjen might as well (particularly in Summer).

Perhaps Benjen will resurface with Critical Information?

[gingerella]

When did Thorne say what happened to him?  Or was he simply implying what he thought might have happened to Benjen? I cant remember shit about this show, it's got so many plates spinning...

[RadiantAerynSun]

Now that we know WWs can turn baby humans into (presumably) new WWs, I wonder if they ever do it with adults, and if Benjen could be one of them? I always assumed if he was dead, he'd be a wight, and thus really lost. If he were to turn into an adult WW, I wonder what that would mean.

[stillshimpy]

Oh poor old Tired Timothy Dalton, where have you gone?  Timjen Stark, I remember you!  *Holds Bic Aloft*

 

I truly think that Bran may yet find Benjen and no, I don't think he's a Zomboni (or that he rides a Zomponi).  

 

Might those weird ass Buffy escapees who make Baby Crasters into Walker have him in their ice dungeon and Bran will find him there.  Chilled, but Starkian. 

[Pallas]

I too want to believe that ultimately, A Show will refuse to indulge the impulse to have Benjen return as a zomboni.  I don't watch horror movies and even I recognize that as a played-out twist.  Benjen, remember who you are: not Tired Trope Timothy Dalton! 

 

If there is a most-northernmost-weirwood, perhaps Bran will find him there?  Or Jon, somewhere else.  Timjen's last words to Jon at Castle Black were that They'd Talk when he returned from his little sortie.  This was before Ned died; I think Benjen probably just wanted to give Jon more of the lay of the land.  But now, I do think Jon's uncle is one of the few people alive who might know Jon's origins, and the best person left to speak of them to Jon.

[abelard]

Timjen's last words to Jon at Castle Black were that They'd Talk when he returned from his little sortie.  This was before Ned died; I think Benjen probably just wanted to give Jon more of the lay of the land.  But now, I do think Jon's uncle is one of the few people alive who might know Jon's origins, and the best person left to speak of them to Jon.

 

I actually think those were Ned's last words to Jon ("we'll talk about your mother..." when they next saw one another [*NED* *sob*]).  But Benjen may well know who Jon's real parents are and that may be why he hasn't resurfaced yet.

 

I would love for Benjen to show up somehow during the Mance Rayder attack on the Wall.  Benjen was mentioned by Lord Commander Mormont as one of the reasons they had to march out beyond the Wall at the end of S1: "We'll find Benjen Stark, alive or dead."  So just that alone makes me think we will see him again.  

 

I definitely don't think we'll see him as a Zomboni b/c basically Osha already told that story, of a loved one (her mate) being turned and coming back and trying to kill her.  So I don't think the story will do that exact same thing with Benjen. 

[Pallas]

I actually think those were Ned's last words to Jon ("we'll talk about your mother..." when they next saw one another [*NED* *sob*]).  But Benjen may well know who Jon's real parents are and that may be why he hasn't resurfaced yet.

 

Those absolutely were Ned's last words to Jon, abelard -- that, I never forgot (my sobs mingle with yours).  What surprised me on my recent re-watch was to be reminded that Benjen said nearly the same thing, when he and Jon spoke at the top of the Wall, the night before Benjen left on his benighted mission. Jon said stoutly, "I'm with you!" and Benjen firmly rejoined, "Not so much..."  stating that Jon was not yet a Ranger.  As he walked away from Jon and us forever, so far, Benjen then said, "We''ll talk when I return."    

 

I know this was pretty early in season one, but even then, you'd think those words would have burned a hole in me.  

[abelard]

oh wow, pallas, I didn't realize that Benjen said the exact same  (last) thing to Jon, great catch!!!  well, maybe Benjen basically was ready to have the same convo with Jon that Ned was: after Jon took the oath to the NW, and could no longer wear any crowns or father any children, then he could learn his parentage...

[Pallas]

That's my read on it as well: at least now that Ned is no longer here to tell the tale.  All the more reason Tired Timjen has to wake the fuck up and join us again.  

 

It seems Ned told no one else about Jon's mother (keeping his lies to a minimum, as I see it): not Cat, not Robert.  Based on their conversation on the road to King's Landing, Ned always allowed Robert to surmise the mother, and otherwise kept mum.  But his one surviving brother, Jon's uncle, safely stowed away up at the Wall...he, I think, Ned told.

[stillshimpy]

Jon's uncle, safely stowed away up at the Wall...he, I think, Ned told.

 

I remain stubbornly on team "Jon is Ned's Son, because have you met that stubborn, dour bastard?"  but I do agree that If Ned told anyone about Jon's mother , I think it would be Timjen.  If seemingly everyone else is right and Lyanna Stark is his mother, then Ned would tell Benjen because Lyanna is also Benjen's sister, so he'd literally have the right to know.  

 

However, I do think Jon is Ned's son and that Benjen is still going to know who his mother was and what she meant to Ned.  I've always hoped that Ned had a chance to actually be in love by his own choice.  I know he dutifully loved Catelyn and she dutifully learned to love him back, but I sort of hope that Ned had someone he also loved when he was married off to Catelyn in the name of duty and alliances.  Just because it would suck a little bit less if they were both the others second choice that they managed to learn to care about.  

 

Whatever truth is to be known, I think Benjen is likely to be the person who knows it.  

[abelard]

If seemingly everyone else is right and Lyanna Stark is his mother, then Ned would tell Benjen because Lyanna is also Benjen's sister, so he'd literally have the right to know.

 

This is precisely how I see it.  Why would Ned have told Benjen the mother and not anyone else?  The best (story-wise) reason would be: because the mother is Benjen's sister, also.  

[stillshimpy]

Right, abelard, but the explanation of "but he'd tell Benjen the truth" would also simply apply to "because Benjen is Ned's brother, and although Robert was clearly Ned's friend, Benjen has an affinity for all things Starkian because he is also a Stark."  

 

He'd tell him because Benjen was his sole remaining sibling.  His family.  The only other person who might truly understand why Ned Stark had a lapse in honor and judgment, because he alone would truly know what the loss of Brandon and their father felt like. 

 

So it actually works for either "Ned is Jon's father" or "Lyanna is Jon's mother" (but they are Starks, so I think it is either/or not both, despite this crazy assed show).  It's just one would make it a given (Lyanna being Jon's mother) while the other would make it emotionally understandable.  

 

Robert and Ned were great friends, but they were a case of Opposite Natures, clearly.  I think Ned would tell Benjen about a woman he loved, simply because from what little we saw of Benjen, he would be less likely to want to talk about her boobs and more likely to simply commiserate over the pressure to be honorable. 

 

Also, it would seem that Jon Snow turned down his chance at a Brothel fling, but from what I understood Robb was there.  So the Starks weren't entirely anti-brothel or anti-prositute.  They're honorable, not dead, so I don't think it is that out-of-the-question that a young Ned, thinking he was off to die, had his own version of Shae in his life. 

Edited May 17, 2014 by stillshimpy

[gingerella]

This is precisely how I see it.  Why would Ned have told Benjen the mother and not anyone else?  The best (story-wise) reason would be: because the mother is Benjen's sister, also.  

Hmmm...is there any way that Benjen is Jon's father?!  And Lyanna is not the mother, as we've been thinking?  Perhaps it was Benjen who had an affair with someone Baratheon or someone else who would create an escandalo! if found out, and that's why Benjen was sent to the Wall, with big brother Ned cleaning up after him by agreeing to take on Jon as his own bastard?

[abelard]

Wow gingerella, good spec!  I've never heard that one before.  But maybe that could work!!  After all we don't know when Benjen joined the NW.  Maybe Benjen fought beside Ned in Robert's Rebellion, and fathered a child that for whatever reason he could not claim.  Who knows, maybe by a Targeryen girl that we don't know about.  That would satisfy Ned's line to Jon: "You have my blood in you."  

 

And shimpy, I hear you on the incest reference.  This show!  Only watching this show could we both be thinking "Wait, I just said maybe Ned was the father, or their sister was the mother, but that doesn't mean I think it could be both at the same time, but maybe that needs to be said because..."  Yeah, b/c there are a TON of incest kids on this show, between the Lannisters and the Crasters!!!

[gingerella]

abelard, taking your add on one step further...let's assume for a moment that Benjen is Jon's baby daddy, and his mother is indeed a Targ...I know in the past we'd spitballed quite a  bit about Jon and Dany ending up together - either romantically or politically - in the end, and I'm not sure where all that spitballing came from but I think it was just because they both were kick ass and seemed to want to be good people and do the right thing by others.  But...from A Show's perspective, I think both Dany and Jon are roughly similar in age, or at best a couple/few years apart, yes?  If so, is it possible that they are actually siblings?  And if so, then perhaps Jon ends up being "A Dragon" in that he possesses the same gifts that Dany does, but does not yet know it?  Have we ever seen Jon interact with fire?  I don't remember anything standing out on that front, but I forget a lot of what happens on A Show because there's so much to keep track of and I don't have the time or inclination to re-watch scenes over and over, let alone entire episodes, so I watch and basically forget a lot of what I saw previously. But again, I don't remember seeing anything "odd" about Jon and fire...yet...

 

Assuming the above is possible, that would mean on A Show's Rubik Cube, that Jon's storyline would start lining up both on the black magical squares, as well as the green environmental squares, and on the other squares, which though I cooked them up, I now forget!  It seems like Jon being both a Targ and a sibling to Dany would greatly change A Show's endgame.  And yet, if Benjen is Jon's father, that tempers the Targ blood with do-gooder Starkian qualities that might tone down an ever-increasing power Queen that Dany may become.

 

Hmmmm....

[stillshimpy]

Have we ever seen Jon interact with fire?

 

Yes and he was burned by it.  When the Zombonis attacked at Castle Black, Jon threw a lantern and burned his hand doing  so.  He is not a Dragon. 

 

As for why it was so often speculated that Dany and Jon would end up together, I think that had a lot to do with how good-looking they both are.  Then came season two, the season of "Holy Jesus, is Jon ever boring, and super whiny and Dany shouts her brains out a lot and misplaces her dragons and is usually sort of grubby as she wanders around in the desert" and it stopped being such a popular speculation. 

 

It is possible that Benjen is Jon's father, but if that's the case, Benjen might not freaking know it since we've seen them interact and there as an absence of Significant Looks Aplenty on Timjen's part.  However, that I could actually see, Ned scooping up Benjen's son and taking him home, and not telling Cat, because if Benjen broke his vow to the Night's Watch, that's not something Ned might advertise all over the land.  

 

Admittedly, I think the story that makes the most direct sense is that Ned was married off to a girl he barely knew, because his preferred brother had been burned alive.  He then set off to war, had a fling, the woman died and Ned refused to abandon their baby.  One of the biggest problems with the whole "ZOMG! Lyanna's baby!" is that it was Robert who killed Rhaegar, not Ned.  Ned was in King's Landing, securing the throne.  Presumably Lyanna was with Rhaegar since he kidnapped her (or whatever may have happened, I really don't think this show is big on Gothic Romances) .   

 

But I do have to admit that every damned Stark man dying or disappearing after promising Jon a chat raises even my eyebrows on the subject. 

Edited May 17, 2014 by stillshimpy

[abelard]

It's definite Jon is not a Dragon, but I think Dragon genes can be recessive.  IA that the only reason people ever thought/think Jon and Dany might get together is b/c they are good looking do-gooders.  But sometimes, when I spec that Jon is Dany's possible nephew (if Jon is Rhaegar's son), then I think, well, if they get together, ewwww, b/c more Targ incest, but yay, b/c more future Dragons (human edition) for the Kingdom...???  But somehow I can't really see Dany (or Jon!!!!!) endorsing their own children continue to marry each other to "keep the bloodlines pure," as the Targs did for centuries.  And  Dany has said that she's not having any more (human) children, right?

 

Anyway, back to Benjen: I hope hope hope that we see a convergence of Badasses on the Wall to help out with the defense against Mance Rayder's army of Wildlings and Cannibals.  I would like to see: 1) Benjen! 2) Brienne and Pod! and 3) Stannis's new army of sellswords!  come help out the NW.  That would be a kickass episode. 

[WhiteStumbler]

If there is a most-northernmost-weirwood, perhaps Bran will find him there?

Could Tired Timothy Dalton be the Three Eyed Raven somehow? Stark blood may be warg's blood, and there is a connection of House Stark to the weir wood trees and the Old Gods. Did Bran's visions of the Three Eyed Raven start *after* Benjen vanished? Maybe Benjen was somehow changed (like Bran was changed by being paralyzed) into a seer who can enter the dreams of others after he vanished???

[Pallas]

I like that idea very much, WhiteStumbler.  I thought the 3-eyed raven voice sounded like Benjen's, but also knew (1) I didn't really remember Benjen's voice, and (2) I wanted it to.  So I put that spec on the back burner.   Now I'm picking up the lid on the pot and peeking inside to see how it's coming along...

[abelard]

I love the idea that Benjen is a warg!!!!!  After all, that trait must be hereditary to a degree.  I don't know if Benjen has been "speaking" to Bran through dreams/visions or whatnot, but it would be cool if Benjen survived north of the wall, wherever he is, by using his Starkian magical powers somehow. 

 

I admit I don't at all understand what Bran's "other" power is.  I know that Bran can warg and Jojen is a seer (which I totally don't get but he seems to be able to see backwards and forwards in time) but can Bran "see" too, and if so, have we seen him "see"?  Anyway, whatever Bran's other power is besides warging, maybe Benjen has that, too.

 

All this spec is making me think we will really never see Benjen again, tho :(.

[Pallas]

Oh, take heart abelard!  I understand completely, but I really do think we will see Benjen again.  

 

And I agree: Bran's power did not come out of nowhere; it seems connected to the Starkian Old Gods, and the first sighting of our friend 3-Eyed was when the raven flew into the Stark crypt.  If the voice is indeed Benjen's, I wonder if he is simply transmitting to anyone who can discern: "Look for me under the tree."  He must know, after all, that he is being looked for.  He might be very much surprised that it is Bran who shows up...

[abelard]

like a radio broadcast signal!!!

[RadiantAerynSun]

Oh man I totally like the spec that Benjen is somehow connected to the 3 eyed Raven. Other than, Benjen never really interacted with Bran at all, just with Jon, so would kinda make more sense to me that he'd talk to Jon - UNLESS Bran's injury is the only reason why he is able to contact him. Oh, or I guess yeah the possibility that he's just broadcasting and not aiming it at a specific Stark. hmm...

[MrMicrophone]

shimp,

We know of at least three battles:

One between Ned and the Kingsguard (sans Jaime, including Barristan)

One between Rhaegar and Robert (presumably, ned absent -- betcha he'd have been mentioned if he was there!)

The mixed melee between Lannisters, Mad King Aerys, and Ned in charge of Forces (or at least in Vanguard. Robert might have been there)

 

"Presumably Lyanna was with Rhaegar since he kidnapped her (or whatever may have happened, I really don't think this show is big on Gothic Romances) ."

 

-- This show doesn't seem to like having women in the fighting (see Cersei, see Catelyn -- nearby, but not in the fighting -- if things go bad, the women flee).

The kingsguard fighting Ned ... means something. Dunno, maybe they were protecting Dany/Viserys, if not Lyanna?

(Also, does it mean something that Barristan wasn't killed?)

[Snowblack]

I love the idea of Benjen as the Three-Eyed Raven or some sort of connection to the Old Gods.  I guess it would be too much to hope for for Benjen to be under that tree, serving whatever ancient power can help against the White Walkers...and using whatever power the Old God priests (or whoever's down there) have to communicate with Bran.  I would love to see him again, in any form.

 

And Aeryn, I think it's a great thought that Bran's injury has made him more in tune with his warging (and whatever other) powers.  Much like a blind man having a heightened sense of hearing.  He's not the best candidate for Benjen/Three-Eyed Raven/Tree People to contact precisely because of the disability, but he's certainly the easiest of the Starks to communicate with because of his increased perceptions.

[DirewolfPup]

Can we meet in the middle as speculate that Jon is the child of Lyanna and Benjen? This show loves a good incest story!

 

Benjen as a warg is brilliant. I watched that Bran vision a dozen times, so I can definitely say that the voice sounds like Benjen. If this is right, I'm going to name Whitestumbler and Pallas as geniuses.

[Pallas]

We know Bran seemingly woke up from his coma the moment Lady was killed.  That's how it was shown in quick cuts -- Ned's knife, sound of wolf whimper/Bran's eyes shoot open/credits.  Now I want to see when that was within Benjen's timeframe.  I think he was still at Castle Black when the news came that Bran was awake, but I'm not sure.  In any event, worth a re-rewatch to track Bran's subsequent dreams and crow-communings with Benjen's disappearance.  

[RadiantAerynSun]

maybe Lady's soul went into Bran which is what gave him the ability to communicate with animals...

[Llywela]

As for why it was so often speculated that Dany and Jon would end up together, I think that had a lot to do with how good-looking they both are.  Then came season two, the season of "Holy Jesus, is Jon ever boring, and super whiny and Dany shouts her brains out a lot and misplaces her dragons and is usually sort of grubby as she wanders around in the desert" and it stopped being such a popular speculation.

 

IA that the only reason people ever thought/think Jon and Dany might get together is b/c they are good looking do-gooders.  

Also, I think, because they seem to be at such opposite ends of the story - Jon way up north in the ice and snow with White Walkers and Dany way down south in the sunny desert with dragons - there's kind of a thematic link there, if, as has been speculated, the dragons will eventually prove critical in the surely someday battle against the WWs.

 

Or, y'know, they both might die long before it ever comes to that. On this show, who can tell!