S03.E03: Leopard Snares Rabbit

[nodorothyparker]

Quote

Sunny and Bajie go undercover on The Widow's frontlines, seeking passage to a possible cure for Henry.  Tilda confronts The Widow.

[SimoneS]

I loved the ending. First, Sunny taking out Chau's archer and looking at The Widow's soldiers, only to come to the realization that they were children mindlessly following their Baron's orders like he did with Quinn. Second, Tilda going to confront The Widow so she could rescue her girlfriend and MK. MK's gift returning and his attack on The Widow's men and then The Widow, herself. She was lucky that Tilda was there and that MK now appears to have some control over his gift. 

Lydia is a good mentor for Tilda. Now that her people have been taken down, I wonder if Tilda, MK, and her girlfriend will go find Sunny and Bajie. I felt for the young woman who lost her leg, that is a terrible world for a woman, especially, to be disabled in any way.

I had a good laugh when Sunny told The Widow's soldiers that he was their regent. I was worried that Nathaniel would catch them before they got of there with Henry.

Edited May 7, 2018 by SimoneS

[RedheadZombie]

I know it's makeup and sound effects, but Henry's shaking and whimpering gave me the sads.  Poor wee peanut.  Sunny made me giggle with his - this baby is important to The Widow, don't ask why!  Like he's not conspicuously holding an Asian baby as an Asia man, and not all but implying Minverva is the mother.

I like how age, gender, and size have no bearing on the fighting ability.  Nathaniel's hot.

I find it very hard to believe that when describing Sonny, his ethnicity is not mentioned.  The describer was a white guy, he would have mentioned it.  Is this world one where race and ethnicity are invisible?

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I loved the ending. First, Sunny taking out Chao's archer and looking at The Widow's soldiers, only to come to the realization that they were children mindlessly following their Baron's orders like he did with Quinn. Second, Tilda going to confront The Widow so she could rescue her girlfriend and MK. MK's gift returning and his attack on The Widow's men and then The Widow, herself. She was lucky that Tilda was there and that MK now appears to have some control over his gift. 

Lydia is a good mentor for Tilda. Now that her people have been taken down, I wonder if Tilda, MK, and her girlfriend will go find Sunny and Bajie. I felt for the young woman who lost her leg, that is a terrible world for a woman, especially, to be disabled in any way.

I had a good laugh when Sunny told The Widow's soldiers that he was their regent. I was worried and Nathaniel would catch them before they got of there with Henry.

Didn't Lydia sell her and all her followers out by betraying her to Minerva?  At least Minerva didn't know she was aiming killers at her daughter.  Lydia knew who would be killed.*  I kind of appreciate it because they were portraying her a little too saintly this season.  All the characters have done terrible things and good things - everyone is gray.

*I don't consider a warning that is delivered a split second before the enemy a serious warning.  It was for show to keep playing both sides.

[agentpanda]

4 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I like how age, gender, and size have no bearing on the fighting ability.  Nathaniel's hot.

I find it very hard to believe that when describing Sonny, his ethnicity is not mentioned.  The describer was a white guy, he would have mentioned it.  Is this world one where race and ethnicity are invisible?

Come to think of it, is there even an Asia in this reality? Under current standards, you can say that the pause that the describer had was a hesitation to describe one minority person (Sunny) through his race to another (Nathaniel). Still, it's nice to see the show actually describe Sunny without cluing in on his ethnicity.

This episode, more than others before, really doubled down on breaking stereotypes. It was a bit too much but I appreciated it. I can't recall seeing a female clipper from the Widow with a bowler hat before and I think it is rare to see a black archer in any show. 

[Stardancer Supreme]

This is a wild ride!  Two things are bothering me a little, though.  Where is Chau?  We see all these Clippers in white, yet we have not seen their Baron.  Also, what happened to Waldo?  Didn't he agree to be Widow's regent last season?  

[SimoneS]

5 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Didn't Lydia sell her and all her followers out by betraying her to Minerva?  At least Minerva didn't know she was aiming killers at her daughter.  Lydia knew who would be killed.*  I kind of appreciate it because they were portraying her a little too saintly this season.  All the characters have done terrible things and good things - everyone is gray.

*I don't consider a warning that is delivered a split second before the enemy a serious warning.  It was for show to keep playing both sides.

This is exactly why Lydia is a good mentor for Tilda. Lydia is a survivor, a pragmatist, and self-aware. Tilda needs someone to shake out of her self-righteous delusion and force her be honest about the motivation for her actions which will ultimately help her stay alive. Lydia was right that Tilda has been using the excuse of helping the refugees to lash out at her mother. Tilda wrote their death warrant attacking The Widow's caravan. It was only a matter of time before Nathan found and slaughtered them, even if Lydia didn't given them up. Tilda couldn't let MK kill her mother so maybe she can now be honest with herself and find something more productive and less self-destructive to do.

57 minutes ago, agentpanda said:

This episode, more than others before, really doubled down on breaking stereotypes. It was a bit too much but I appreciated it. I can't recall seeing a female clipper from the Widow with a bowler hat before and I think it is rare to see a black archer in any show. 

I noticed that too. It was nice to see some diversity in all levels of the cast. This is also the only show where women have prominent leadership and fighting roles.

Edited May 7, 2018 by SimoneS

[Netfoot]

15 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I find it very hard to believe that when describing Sonny, his ethnicity is not mentioned.

In the country where I live, 97% of the population are of African origin.  Yet when a description is given in the press/TV, no one is ever described as being black, African, or any such.  They are described as being "of dark complexion, with curly hair..."

Boxers in the ring, one white and one black.  Commentator:  "Smith is the one in the blue trunks..."

<shrug>

Edited May 7, 2018 by Netfoot

[RedheadZombie]

2 hours ago, Netfoot said:

In the country where I live, 97% of the population are of African origin.  Yet when a description is given in the press/TV, no one is ever described as being black, African, or any such.  They are described as being "of dark complexion, with curly hair..."

Boxers in the ring, one white and one black.  Commentator:  "Smith is the one in the blue trunks..."

<shrug>

Sure, it's tacky and unnecessary to describe someone's race/ethnicity/color in this situation.  But surely eye witnesses to a crime actually describe these things in the perpetrator.  I actually think it's pretty cool if the cast is supposed to be a generic group and the casting is color blind, like a Shonda Rhimes show.  But even Shonda's characters are acknowledged to be who they are.  That's why I questioned whether this post-apocalyptic world is one of different races/ethnicities or if they're a homogenous group of people.  I haven't read the comics so I don't know how things go in that world. 

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, RedheadZombie said:

Sure, it's tacky and unnecessary to describe someone's race/ethnicity/color in this situation.

I'm not sure I believe this is so.  Certainly not always.

I don't know why someone's race or skin colour should be a subject to be avoided, especially when trying to describe or identify them to others.  Sure, there are times when it simply isn't relevant, but there are times when to avoid mentioning it can only be counter-productive.  

[jhlipton]

Bajie was so damn stupid.  Wren told him flat out that her only worth was as a soldier, and he decided, on his own, to "save" her.  I wonder if he would have ignored the soldier's wishes if it was a guy.

16 hours ago, agentpanda said:

I think it is rare to see a black archer in any show. 

It's funny -- I can't think of a major black character in the first season, other than Veil, and she was, to me, rather light.

In the second season, we get Nathaniel Moon.

Now there are black male characters popping up everywhere (one was a high-level Clipper for the Widow), but still only one black woman.

[RedheadZombie]

1 hour ago, Netfoot said:

I'm not sure I believe this is so.  Certainly not always.

I don't know why someone's race or skin colour should be a subject to be avoided, especially when trying to describe or identify them to others.  Sure, there are times when it simply isn't relevant, but there are times when to avoid mentioning it can only be counter-productive.  

Well it was in response to a comment that there were two boxers - one white and one black - and they were described by the color of their trunks.   It that situation, I think it would be tacky for the announcer to say Smith is the black one and Jones is the white one.  I don't think race/ethnicity should be ignored, as I specifically stated that even though Shonda Rhimes does color blind casting, she doesn't go on to pretend everyone is a generic member of a homogenous group.

My original question, before all of this back and forth, was is this a world in which race/ethnicity are nonexistent, or somehow invisible.  I know white people, I am one, and if we were describing an offender, we would mention race/ethnicity if they were not white.  Just as I'm sure in a Korean community, a white shop lifter would be described as a "white guy".  That's where my head was during the original post.   But I'm going to stop commenting on this because it's obviously hijacked the thread, which was never my intention, nor was I attempting to invoke some sort of political discussion.

[RedheadZombie]

27 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Bajie was so damn stupid.  Wren told him flat out that her only worth was as a soldier, and he decided, on his own, to "save" her.  I wonder if he would have ignored the soldier's wishes if it was a guy.

It's funny -- I can't think of a major black character in the first season, other than Veil, and she was, to me, rather light.

In the second season, we get Nathaniel Moon.

Now there are black male characters popping up everywhere (one was a high-level Clipper for the Widow), but still only one black woman.

Yeah, I didn't like the Bajie storyline either.  First of all, he left her laying there helpless which caused her to take a second bolt to the leg.  If Sonny hadn't responded and given Bajie orders, I'm sure he would have left her there to die.  Then he plays the hero and just waltzes away when he learns she's unhappy.  As a nurse who's taken care of postop amputees, all I could think of was the excruciating pain she would be suffering through her recovery.  But then I've never prescribed to life at all costs, regardless of quality of life or suffering.

I did notice that Sonny didn't mind that several people died because his priority was his baby.  It didn't really bother me, but I've heard this accusation made of Rick Grimes.  I did think that Sonny should have taken out that blood thirsty child who killed the archer against orders.  The guy's a ticking time bomb, has no self-control, and is surely a much worse person that many of those that Sonny has killed in the past.  The guy defied a direct order, but then Sonny was his self-appointed leader so maybe that's why Sonny allowed him to live?  The kid certainly should be demoted since he allowed some guy to sashay in and take over command.  It is strange that Minerva was so female-centric, and now she has a bunch of males running things.  A bunch of sadistic males, for that matter. 

Since this second season was filmed in Ireland, I thought there may be some British actors popping up, but we've still just got Bajie.  Like The Walking Dead, I wonder if they're sticking to the ethnicities of the comic book characters.

[jhlipton]

11 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I did think that Sonny should have taken out that blood thirsty child who killed the archer against orders.  The guy's a ticking time bomb, has no self-control, and is surely a much worse person that many of those that Sonny has killed in the past.  The guy defied a direct order, but then Sonny was his self-appointed leader so maybe that's why Sonny allowed him to live?  The kid certainly should be demoted since he allowed some guy to sashay in and take over command

I can't disagree with you more.  The archer killed about a dozen of the kid's friends and comrades, killed some outright, and poisoned others so they would die a long and painful death.  So this asshole who has just waltzed in and not suffered any loss says "We have have mercy for him."  Bull.  No where on this show have we really seen POWs -- the losers of a fight are turned or killed,  So boo freaking hoo for some guy who would have done exactly the same. 

And wasn't the arrow poisoned like all the rest?  The kid did the archer a favor, taking him out quick.

Sonny is, for better or worse, the moral center of the show, so we're supposed to think that he's right.  Not this time.

18 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

It is strange that Minerva was so female-centric, and now she has a bunch of males running things.  A bunch of sadistic males, for that matter.

Minerva had to turn Veil over to Quinn for PLOT!!!! which made her eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil -- and which made her instantly forget her plan to completely revise the society of the Badlands: no more Clippers, no more  poppies, no more "dolls".  And since she's eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil, she can't lead the women anymore -- that falls to the oh-so-pure Tilda. [Quick sidebar -- if Tilda rejoins the Widow, would that make her the Iron Butterfly?]  This show certainly loves its strange variant of the Madonna/Whore BS.

[Statman]

26 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I did notice that Sonny didn't mind that several people died because his priority was his baby. 

Who died in this episode as a result of Sunny’s actions besides Chau’s archer who he gave orders to spare? 

Edited May 8, 2018 by Statman

[RedheadZombie]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

I can't disagree with you more.  The archer killed about a dozen of the kid's friends and comrades, killed some outright, and poisoned others so they would die a long and painful death.  So this asshole who has just waltzed in and not suffered any loss says "We have have mercy for him."  Bull.  No where on this show have we really seen POWs -- the losers of a fight are turned or killed,  So boo freaking hoo for some guy who would have done exactly the same. 

And wasn't the arrow poisoned like all the rest?  The kid did the archer a favor, taking him out quick.

Sonny is, for better or worse, the moral center of the show, so we're supposed to think that he's right.  Not this time.

Minerva had to turn Veil over to Quinn for PLOT!!!! which made her eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil -- and which made her instantly forget her plan to completely revise the society of the Badlands: no more Clippers, no more  poppies, no more "dolls".  And since she's eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil, she can't lead the women anymore -- that falls to the oh-so-pure Tilda. [Quick sidebar -- if Tilda rejoins the Widow, would that make her the Iron Butterfly?]  This show certainly loves its strange variant of the Madonna/Whore BS.

You're probably right about the kid.  I probably fell for Sonny is the good guy logic.  I just didn't appreciate the little bloodthirsty bastard who was too stupid to figure out what Sonny did in five minutes.  I'm also extremely disappointed that Minerva suddenly has men in all her leadership positions - although I do appreciate Moon.

What's funny is I didn't really care that Minerva turned over Veil - she got on my nerves big time.  She had Quinn at her mercy for a long time, had medical training, but couldn't figure out how to get rid of him.  Not even after knowing he had her parents killed.  Not even knowing he was a danger to her child.  She was too passive for my liking.  At least she was active in her own death.  She seemed the martyr type, so sacrificing herself for Henry made sense.  I wouldn't mind Sonny and Minerva hooking up eventually.

I just don't see Minerva as a villain - although I would be very displeased if she knew how that bald freak tortured him.  She's still a former cog who kills men who abuse women and fought to end slavery.

1 hour ago, Statman said:

Who died in this episode as a result of Sunny’s actions besides Chau’s archer who he gave orders to spare? 

I remember seeing people lying around with bolts protruding, but now that you mention it, I probably assumed that they were killed in that moment.

[jhlipton]

2 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I did notice that Sonny didn't mind that several people died because his priority was his baby.

Sonny, on being told that a dozen people died, trying to get through "Sniper Alley": "Eh, right, whatever, as long as me and my baby get through."  But that's typical sonny, calmly walking through carnage because no one stops his mission (of the moment).

1 hour ago, RedheadZombie said:

I just didn't appreciate the little bloodthirsty bastard who was too stupid to figure out what Sonny did in five minutes.

 

"I was just doing my duty."  So did the kid.  It was his duty to see that none of Chou's men survived.  Just like it was the archer's duty to kill as many of Minerva's men (and women) as he could.  The archer didn't give a crap about Henry, so why should we give a crap about him? 

"This isn't my war." Then you don't get to tell others how to fight it.  You threw your lot in with the Butterflies to get through the line; they're obviously disposable parts to you.  So bugger off with your "prisoner of war" crap.

And everybody on this show is pretty bloodthirsty!

1 hour ago, RedheadZombie said:

I remember seeing people lying around with bolts protruding, but now that you mention it, I probably assumed that they were killed in that moment.

I think they were the victims of previous attempts to clear the alley. 

[RedheadZombie]

58 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Sonny, on being told that a dozen people died, trying to get through "Sniper Alley": "Eh, right, whatever, as long as me and my baby get through."  But that's typical sonny, calmly walking through carnage because no one stops his mission (of the moment).

"I was just doing my duty."  So did the kid.  It was his duty to see that none of Chou's men survived.  Just like it was the archer's duty to kill as many of Minerva's men (and women) as he could.  The archer didn't give a crap about Henry, so why should we give a crap about him? 

"This isn't my war." Then you don't get to tell others how to fight it.  You threw your lot in with the Butterflies to get through the line; they're obviously disposable parts to you.  So bugger off with your "prisoner of war" crap.

And everybody on this show is pretty bloodthirsty!

I think they were the victims of previous attempts to clear the alley. 

I probably wouldn't have if Sonny hadn't had a little moment with him.  And his death scene was rather sad.  He looked like a scared kid.

[FlowerofCarnage]

10 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

You're probably right about the kid.  I probably fell for Sonny is the good guy logic.  I just didn't appreciate the little bloodthirsty bastard who was too stupid to figure out what Sonny did in five minutes.  I'm also extremely disappointed that Minerva suddenly has men in all her leadership positions - although I do appreciate Moon.

What's funny is I didn't really care that Minerva turned over Veil - she got on my nerves big time.  She had Quinn at her mercy for a long time, had medical training, but couldn't figure out how to get rid of him.  Not even after knowing he had her parents killed.  Not even knowing he was a danger to her child.  She was too passive for my liking.  At least she was active in her own death.  She seemed the martyr type, so sacrificing herself for Henry made sense.  I wouldn't mind Sonny and Minerva hooking up eventually.

I just don't see Minerva as a villain - although I would be very displeased if she knew how that bald freak tortured him.  She's still a former cog who kills men who abuse women and fought to end slavery.

I remember seeing people lying around with bolts protruding, but now that you mention it, I probably assumed that they were killed in that moment.

How was Veil passive when she spent a good deal of her time with Quinn plotting to get away from him.  She could have easily gotten rid of him but then had his 100 or so plus fanatical followers to deal with. 

[RedheadZombie]

3 hours ago, FlowerofCarnage said:

How was Veil passive when she spent a good deal of her time with Quinn plotting to get away from him.  She could have easily gotten rid of him but then had his 100 or so plus fanatical followers to deal with. 

She could have poisoned his food or given him an herbal to "cure" his headaches.  There doesn't seem to be forensics involved in this world.  All she would need to do to cover her tracks would be to show his massive tumor on his x-ray. 

[jhlipton]

11 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I probably wouldn't have if Sonny hadn't had a little moment with him.  And his death scene was rather sad.  He looked like a scared kid.

Yeah, but the Butterflies are also scared kids -- they're just covering with false bravado.

That scene was there to show that Sonny cares, dammit!  Unlike these spoiled brats, who take delight in a HERO's death.  (Notice how Sonny didn't spend two minutes with Wren, who was killed because of his plan.  When Bajie shows more empathy than you do, you need to check yourself, Sonny.

Here's the problem:  Quinn was an out--and-out villain.  He was mean, cruel, vindictive, all of the above.  But he's gone, and we need someone to thwart Sonny's and M zzzzzzzzzz K's (sorry, I dozed there for a minute)  That's why The Master went from being a good and decent person to flat-out eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil in 2 episodes.  That's why The Widow doesn't really care about refugees or slavery or having women is charge any more -- she's the new Quinn. 

The first season was great -- the shifting alliances made sense.  This season, they don't, at least as much.