Season 2 General Discussion

[Lisin]

Here's your place for season 2 general discussion. 

[ShadowDenizen]

The scene where

Maddy gets killed by her uncle Leland

is still etched into my memory, and never fails to bring shivers to my spine anytime I watch it.

Edited May 22, 2014 by ShadowDenizen
no need for spoiler tags

[Ronin Jackson]

I agree... honestly even with the level of violence having skyrocketed since then with cable and all, that is still possibly the most bone chilling and intense scene I have ever seen on television.  And there have been some very intense scenes on Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, et al, so that's saying something.

[ShadowDenizen]

I think it's because the level of violence was not overly sensationalized, coupled with that gnwaing sense of violation, that someone in your family could and would do such a thing.   (Even though we KNOW in real-life that such things sadly happen on a daily basis.)

 

In addition to adding OODLES to the Mythos, Fire Walk With Me also captured that feel of isolation, loneliness and subdued menace quite nicely.

 

I think that's why, while I remember Windom Earle, the Man From Beyond, and the Black Lodge, and the Giant, and everything else, it was the more immediate, realistic bits that truly have stuck with me over the last 20+ years.

 

And? OMG, I am so old! Has it REALLY been that long??)

 

Finally, as an aside, do we think there's enough interest for a rewatch later this, perhaps when the Blu-ray set comes out? (While dated in some aspects, I think TP still holds up very well overall, IMO.)  If we think we can get enough of a quorum, I'll post a thread for it, see if it stirs up interest. (FYI, we're also currently doing a Star Trek: DS9 rewatch, which has gotten a positive turnout thus far!!)

Edited May 22, 2014 by ShadowDenizen

[Bella]

 

Finally, as an aside, do we think there's enough interest for a rewatch later this, perhaps when the Blu-ray set comes out? (While dated in some aspects, I think TP still holds up very well overall, IMO.)  If we think we can get enough of a quorum, I'll post a thread for it, see if it stirs up interest. 

 

Please notify me and Lisin if you decide to do this - we're listed as mods for this forum, and I believe we can get the rewatch announcement pushed out for more visibility. I'd be interested in participating, too - I loved the first season of this show and would also like to give the second season another try.

 

Do we have a likely date on the Blu-ray set?

[ShadowDenizen]

According to Amazon, relativey soon; July 29th is the date they cite.

 

I'm in for the rewatch for sure, and tentatively in for the Blu-Ray set (I try to be a TP completist,  but $120 is a steep investment for something I already own many times over. Hopefully they'll have a sale on it.)

 

 

[Ronin Jackson]

Damn, the price has gone up $30 in a week.  Amazon does offer the low price guarantee but if the price never drops back to $90 I'm going to regret not ordering it as soon as it was listed.

[QuiGonJ]

The show is also available at no cost on Amazon Prime, if you are a member. Doesn't include Fire Walk With Me, but at least I have had the chance to see the show again. I still think the first season is amazing, but the second season....

 

has reminded me of why I was mad at the show when it ended, mainly because by about episode 15, it was clear the writers had no idea where they were going. At points, I was sure we were in Kansas, because nowhere else has that much corn. They seemed to be writing a 1940's soap opera, and just throwing things at the screen.

What the heck was it with Ben Horne and the Civil War? uhhhhhhhh....

Where did the high school go? I dunno.

Why did James run off on his bike? So we could get the blonde femme fatale story.

Where did Josie's check for $5 million go? If anyone can tell me, I'd really like to know.

 

And the only reason for all the spoilered snark is that I liked the show till it went off the rails. When it came out I had Laura's secret diary (the tie-in novel) and the soundtrack and so on.

Edited June 4, 2014 by QuiGonJ

[Lisin]

It's also streaming on Netflix :)! Yay Twin Peaks everywhere! 

[Ronin Jackson]

The first 7-9 episodes of Season 2 were as good as Season 1, maybe even better, IMO.  It had some of my favorite moments in the series, especially the episodes directed by David Lynch.  But yeah, the writing fell off a cliff somewhere around that point.  For all the talk about how ABC screwed the series by forcing a revelation of the murder mystery, I'm pretty sure the bad writing in the middle of the season had a lot to do with people quitting on the show.  And the episode where the mystery was revealed was absolutely incredible.  I don't even bother rewatching that stretch in the middle of the season.  22 episodes seems like way too much for a season of serialized drama... I think one of the reasons cable series are so much better than network series these days is because they stick to 10-13 episodes a season.

[Simon Boccanegra]

Agreed with all of that, Ronin Jackson, though I would say seven rather than nine. Middle of S2 is the nadir, and I include in that the conclusion of the Laura Palmer story, the two or three episodes after the giant says "It's happening again." It isn't even a matter of "Anything would be an anticlimax after that episode," although maybe that would be true. Those episodes with the actual resolution and aftermath were just humdrum, ordinary. Then you get into the Andy/Lucy/Dick/devil kid subplot, James's noir adventure, Robyn Lively as the mayor's wife, Nadine on the wrestling team, and it becomes sub-humdrum -- just bad TV. Even Jean Renault's revenge quest is a soggy mess.  

 

I liked the end of S2, although I have a hard time pinpointing where it starts to get good again. I think around 17 through 22. The one that begins with Harry wallowing and having the romantic visions of Josie is the one where, every time I've watched the show all the way through (two or three times), I've thought, "This is more like it." The season/series finale is stunning, of course. The Lynch-directed episodes always were.   

Edited September 16, 2014 by Simon Boccanegra

[JAYJAY1979]

I do agree the last six episodes of season 2 seemed to finally resolve the mid season plotlines while tying all the characters together in one way or another with the Windom Earle story.

 

I even admit I liked the Annie Blackburn character, though I think saddling her with Agent Cooper right away was not a smart move.  It hurt any chance of the character developing as anything more then just a replacement for Audrey's character for Agent Cooper.  Though I always theorized that Annie wasn't Norma's sister.. but really her daughter.  Which could have explained all the hostility between Norma and her mother, plus could have added another complication to Big Ed/Norma's relationship in addition to Nadine.

 

With that said, with the call to reveal Laura's killer being dictated by ABC.. i do wonder how that affected things.  I know the producers and writers said they didn't ever really plan out long term story.. and just wrote it as they went along (which could partly explain why things derailed in the middle of the season).

[Pete Martell]

On 10/11/2014 at 8:46 PM, JAYJAY1979 said:

I even admit I liked the Annie Blackburn character, though I think saddling her with Agent Cooper right away was not a smart move.  It hurt any chance of the character developing as anything more then just a replacement for Audrey's character for Agent Cooper.  Though I always theorized that Annie wasn't Norma's sister.. but really her daughter.  Which could have explained all the hostility between Norma and her mother, plus could have added another complication to Big Ed/Norma's relationship in addition to Nadine.

I was surprised that I too liked Annie, as I had mostly heard that she was terrible, that she ruined Audrey/Dale (admittedly I was never really hugely invested in that relationship), and so on. I thought she was nice and sweet and it's probably one of the only times I connected to Heather Graham in a performance. 

My problem with that relationship is how it is immediately pushed as true love always and how aggressive Dale is in pursuing her, even after he learns that she had recently attempted suicide. And she is not much older than Audrey, which makes that reason for not seeing Audrey end up seeming odd. 

I wish they'd done more with her relationship with Norma. I kept wondering if we would find out she was Norma's daughter, not her sister. 

The bizarre treatment of Norma's family background sort of sums up the aimlessness of season 2. We get her disapproving mother (I did like the woman playing her - I know she had been a noir actress in her heyday) and her husband, who was quickly blackmailed into doing bad deeds with Hank. It all blurred together (I can't remember if the mother found out about what he did or if he went to prison). Then after Norma banished her mother from her life following the bad newspaper review she wrote, her sister pops up, and I don't remember if either of them ever said a word about their mother. 

Beyond Cooper pushing and pushing Annie, the other thing that always bothered me was that he knew he was being stalked by a lunatic yet he went out on lavish public dates with her. 

I had to headcanon that the Cooper of the back half of season 2 was already influenced by Bob, between this, some of the weird robotic interaction he had with Audrey after he told her they wouldn't be together, and how horribly cold he was to Harry after Josie died. 

[jsbt]

IIRC Annie had attempted suicide in her HS years, which led to her going to the convent or what not. I don't think it was recent.

I do think it was very plot-convenient for Cooper to pursue her while Earle was on the loose, but I personally didn't feel he pushed her. Either way the story is far from perfect, rushed as it is. I thought they made the best of it.

Season 2 is my favorite season, warts and all. It is not the Swiss watch that S1 is, but it is far more about Lynch's personal obsessions and style and Frost's deep lore, it's far weirder and bigger. I think the first nine episodes are mostly excellent and have some of the best of the series, and I think the last 5-6 (Josie's death onward) are mostly pretty good. It opens the show and story to a larger world and mythos that propels it even now.

Edited June 4, 2017 by jsbt

[Pete Martell]

3 hours ago, jsbt said:

IIRC Annie had attempted suicide in her HS years, which led to her going to the convent or what not. I don't think it was recent.

I do think it was very plot-convenient for Cooper to pursue her while Earle was on the loose, but I personally didn't feel he pushed her. Either way the story is far from perfect, rushed as it is. I thought they made the best of it.

Season 2 is my favorite season, warts and all. It is not the Swiss watch that S1 is, but it is far more about Lynch's personal obsessions and style and Frost's deep lore, it's far weirder and bigger. I think the first nine episodes are mostly excellent and have some of the best of the series, and I think the last 5-6 (Josie's death onward) are mostly pretty good. It opens the show and story to a larger world and mythos that propels it even now.

I always get confused about Annie's age. I tend to get confused about the ages of the teens as they all made a big jump into being written and in some cases acted as older in season 2 and toward the end of season 1. James' age and trying to figure out how much older Shelly was supposed to be than the teens still confuses me. I guess it didn't help that Sherilyn Fenn was 5 years older than Madchen Amick...

I think season 2 had some really wonderful elements. I also think that the best of that season is better than season 1 mostly in that it's more pure, more of the care of season 1 burned away. Those moments get to your heart (or grab you by the throat), like Garland's "dream" monologue to Bobby, or Maddy's murder, or Leland's last moments, etc. 

The back half of the season I had problems with, but I don't think the stories were beyond redemption, or show-destroying or anything along those lines. Most of them I thought were very stupid and had no business being on Twin Peaks, but I think my main problem looking back is they all play like filler stories between the bigger material. But there wasn't any bigger material, it was just all these comedic filler stories for most of the episodes one after the other. Then they clearly did try to refocus with Windom Earle, bringing Audrey, Donna and Shelly (the three main leading ladies) together, etc. I think much of it played more like Twin Peaks Lite, or a Twin Peaks version of stories on "quirky" dramedies of the day, but I do wonder what Lynch would have done with some of it if given the chance. Like Donna/Audrey being sisters. I did not like it, but I do wonder how he would have handled it. 

I wonder if the lack of any real mention of Windom Earle or Annie in season 3 so far gives any indication of how he feels about that story, or if he just didn't think it fit in. Similar to how we aren't really getting much of anything about Josie or Catherine or the Packards, even though he was involved with a lot of that material. Maybe he just didn't want to bring any of the back without Jack Nance...

[jsbt]

I do suspect Lynch is deliberately excising much mention of Earle or Annie because he thinks they were made a hash of. (Interesting too in that Windom Earle was Mark Frost's personal creation, a Moriarty figure to Cooper's Holmes. But I think even Frost concedes they mishandled elements of the story.) It's hard to say, though, because there's so many gray areas regarding this timeline and people's memories.

We now know despite his many obfuscations (which are probably now he actually chooses to remember things vs. deliberately lying) that Lynch was heavily involved creatively throughout Season 2 while also simultaneously pulling away in other ways; Robyn Lively (Lana) and Annette McCarthy (the dreaded Evelyn Marsh) have both told stories of Lynch being instrumental in their casting, while Harley Peyton has talked about Lynch calling him in the middle of the night demanding a new unscripted opening featuring Piper Laurie which they could not accommodate, somewhere during the "Civil War Ben" episodes I think. He also came up with Josie's doorknob death and insisted it be written in. Heather Graham was cast as Annie based largely on Lynch's working with her on a major ad campaign, I think for Guess jeans. He also went to Ray Wise personally and told him about his final scene in episode 16, dying in the jail cell with Cooper sending him into the light; Lynch and Frost wrote that scene together, it seems. So he was there even later on, at least on the periphery, and certainly his supernatural elements and dream logic are in heavy effect early in the season before Laura's murder is solved. I think episodes 8-14 are very clearly the show writers working from a blueprint based much more overtly on Lynch's strange inner world - the Giant, Maddy having psychic visions, the Tremonds, the increased focus on BOB, MIKE and the supernatural world, etc. This is what so alienated audiences at the time, but today it feels as though it is of a piece with shows today IMO. I think the new show features Frost doing the same, only in even more extreme ways (God knows how the "mauve" opening sequence in episode 3 was scripted). But at the same time - so much of this is also Frost's own fascination with the supernatural and his own mystical interests. So they can't be separated into one guy being about the dream vs. one being logic, because Frost's mind is at least as weird as Lynch's.

I actually quite like the Windom Earle/Caroline backstory as written, and I think Kenneth Welsh did a great job. But sometimes I have patience for the very broad comic elements of the actual active storyline, and other times I'm just tired of it and I see where it fell short. It depends on my mood when I rewatch. I don't expect to see him as Earle was annihilated by BOB. I do think a mention of both the Earles would be germane to Cooper's tale and development - what happened with Windom and Caroline was IMO fundamental to why he failed 25 years ago - and I think we could see Annie. I do think Annie should at least be mentioned, even if both Lynch/Frost now think the character was a miscalculation. Annie is the reason Laura wrote in her diary in FWWM, and I suspect what Laura wrote will come back into the story soon. Lynch, who is rare to ever discuss specific plot details, made particular note of that sequence more than once over the years - I think because he loved the idea of Laura Palmer being the one to save Cooper.

Edited June 4, 2017 by jsbt

[jsbt]

7 hours ago, Pete Martell said:

I always get confused about Annie's age. I tend to get confused about the ages of the teens as they all made a big jump into being written and in some cases acted as older in season 2 and toward the end of season 1. James' age and trying to figure out how much older Shelly was supposed to be than the teens still confuses me. I guess it didn't help that Sherilyn Fenn was 5 years older than Madchen Amick...

I've heard people claim Shelly was the same age as Laura, Donna and Audrey; I don't buy that. She was a HS dropout but I always assumed she was a year or two ahead. I know they had intended to do a time-jump in the original Season 3 because they were tired of pretending Lara/Sherilyn/Dana/etc. were high schoolers.

As for the silly subplots, the way I enjoy those episodes mid-S2 (despite the really bad stuff) is as sort of hangout episodes in the town of Twin Peaks, a kind of breather. It also feels like a false dawn to me, like the town having the conceit of moving on and burying the ugly truth and being happy and silly, which will not last when the plot comes back in full force near the end, when BOB rises from underneath Josie's bed (a scene a lot of people don't like but which always freaked me out - that hand rising from behind the bed while he howls and crawls his way up). And even then, in episodes like the Jean Renault stuff, you have that incredible speech he gives to Cooper, which adds IMO (with hindsight, obviously) to the idea that this is just a temporary illusion of peace.

Quote

Before you came here, Twin Peaks was a simple place. My brothers sold drugs to truck-drivers and teenagers. One-Eyed Jack's welcomed curious tourists and businessmen. Quiet people lived quiet lives. Then a pretty girl dies. And you arrive. Everything changes. My brother Bernard is shot and left to die in the woods. A grieving father smothers my surviving brother with a pillow. Arson, kidnapping. More death and destruction. Suddenly the quiet people here are no longer quiet. Their simple dreams have become a nightmare. Maybe you brought the nightmare with you. And maybe, it will die with you.

Edited June 4, 2017 by jsbt

[Cache]

I had to skip the last few posts to avoid potential spoilers, but glad to hear that the end of the season gets better.  I'm on episode 15 and will continue to stick it out in spite of some of the silly/lame subplots.  Looking forward to getting to the two movies and finally the new season/season 3.

[JNM5505]

I binged-watched the series over this past month after a friend had been insisting I watch since we met several years ago. I didn't see season 3 though, only seasons 1 and 2 on Netflix. Season 3 had completed its run on Showtime when I began my binge-watch. Anyways, season 2 of Twin Peaks definitely had its strong and weak moments. I felt like the case of Laura Palmer's murder could have been solved in the one season, and then the return of Windom Earle in the second season. That would probably have made a much shorter season 2, but I felt very disjointed in the few episodes between the resolution of Laura's death/Leland's suicide and the appearance of Windom Earle.

For Cooper, I asked my friend what she thought of him being in a romantic relationship. At that time, the writers were trying for the Audrey/Coop relationship, which just creeped me out. A few episodes later, Annie Blackburn appears out of the blue, we had no idea Norma even had a sister, right? But someone else said that it would have been better if Annie were Norma's daughter (perhaps with Big Ed?) or something like that. That would have explained the hostility between Norma and her mum. Plus, Annie looked to be about Shelley's age, so no older than 25 I'd say. Norma was at least 38.

To the poster above me, actually episode 15 was when ABC pulled the plug on Twin Peaks originally back in 1991. That was by far the absolute worst episode of the series.

[Nashville]

From its inception Season 2 suffered (IMHO) from a three-way tug-of-war between Lynch, Frost, and the network:

• Lynch, coming from a cinematic background, personally did not want Laura's murder to be completely solved - ever.  Lynch viewed the murder of Laura Palmer as the series's McGuffin; - an event which presents on the story's surface as a resolution point of paramount significance, but in true plot terms is simply an instigating factor significant solely for its effect(s) upon the characters. Resolve your McGuffin, and you lose your primary impetus for directed interaction between the characters.
• Frost, coming from a TV series background, had a different view; he felt they owed it to the viewers to solve the murder at some point in the series.  IIRC (and this was a LONG time ago, so forgive me if I cannot recall my source for this impression) Frost actually wanted the Big Reveal to be the climax of the S2 finale - by which time enough additional plot devices would have been introduced to carry the series forward into (hopefully) a third season.
• The ABC network executives, in a different vein altogether, did what network executives have done to surprise successes since the inception of television - namely, kill it.  Each wanted to jump onto the gravy train, tweak it to some degree to (a) "mark" it as their territory - not unlike a dog pissing on a tree - and (b) force change upon it to conform with their views as to what constituted a "formula for success".  Which in this situation meant solving the murder ASAP, then moving on to the Next Big Thing in the series - whatever the hell THAT might be; they didn't know and didn't care, so long as the series got there while keeping up the ratings.

Since the network execs held the pursestrings, it was hardly surprising they won out in the end - and, in the process, killed the goose which was already busily laying golden eggs.  The execs got their way, rewrites were done to accommodate  the Big Reveal's rushed push to mid-season, the alternate plot lines Frost had intended to carry the series past the Reveal were either nonexistent or incompletely formed - and the series suffered.  Badly.

At which point the ABC network executives did the *other* thing network executives have done to surprise successes since the inception of television, after the first thing didn't pan out; jump ship and cut it loose.  The execs cancelled it mid-season, then (when fan outcry reached career-damaging volume levels) brought it back - but in a weekend time slot guaranteed to divorce the show from its core demographic, and justify its cancellation at end-of-season.  Because once that goose is dead, nobody wants the stink of the rotting carcass attaching to them - that stench has a way of following one around, donchaknow.  :P

Edited September 25, 2017 by Nashville
Expansion

[JAYJAY1979]

On 9/25/2017 at 5:17 PM, Nashville said:

From its inception Season 2 suffered (IMHO) from a three-way tug-of-war between Lynch, Frost, and the network:

• Lynch, coming from a cinematic background, personally did not want Laura's murder to be completely solved - ever.  Lynch viewed the murder of Laura Palmer as the series's McGuffin; - an event which presents on the story's surface as a resolution point of paramount significance, but in true plot terms is simply an instigating factor significant solely for its effect(s) upon the characters. Resolve your McGuffin, and you lose your primary impetus for directed interaction between the characters.
• Frost, coming from a TV series background, had a different view; he felt they owed it to the viewers to solve the murder at some point in the series.  IIRC (and this was a LONG time ago, so forgive me if I cannot recall my source for this impression) Frost actually wanted the Big Reveal to be the climax of the S2 finale - by which time enough additional plot devices would have been introduced to carry the series forward into (hopefully) a third season.
• The ABC network executives, in a different vein altogether, did what network executives have done to surprise successes since the inception of television - namely, kill it.  Each wanted to jump onto the gravy train, tweak it to some degree to (a) "mark" it as their territory - not unlike a dog pissing on a tree - and (b) force change upon it to conform with their views as to what constituted a "formula for success".  Which in this situation meant solving the murder ASAP, then moving on to the Next Big Thing in the series - whatever the hell THAT might be; they didn't know and didn't care, so long as the series got there while keeping up the ratings.

Since the network execs held the pursestrings, it was hardly surprising they won out in the end - and, in the process, killed the goose which was already busily laying golden eggs.  The execs got their way, rewrites were done to accommodate  the Big Reveal's rushed push to mid-season, the alternate plot lines Frost had intended to carry the series past the Reveal were either nonexistent or incompletely formed - and the series suffered.  Badly.

At which point the ABC network executives did the *other* thing network executives have done to surprise successes since the inception of television, after the first thing didn't pan out; jump ship and cut it loose.  The execs cancelled it mid-season, then (when fan outcry reached career-damaging volume levels) brought it back - but in a weekend time slot guaranteed to divorce the show from its core demographic, and justify its cancellation at end-of-season.  Because once that goose is dead, nobody wants the stink of the rotting carcass attaching to them - that stench has a way of following one around, donchaknow.  :P

I had no idea that Frost was aiming to reveal the killer by end of season 2.

 

I can understand the network panicking because ratings were starting to fall (not helped by a Saturday timeslot) and the show was starting to get weird.  If the network truly wanted the show to succeed, I would have moved the show back to a more desirable timeslot earlier in the season...becausr on Saturday night, their key demo were not home usually.

 

That said the reveal was haunting and very unsettling.  When I have friends stating stranger things is scary, I show them the Laura Palmer killer reveal scene and they're freaked out even in 2017.  Plus, the death scene if Leland wad powerful and heart wrenching.  Lynch said he regretted revealing the killer and that killed the shoe, but I think it was the lack of a strong follow up to it that did them in.

[dwmckim]

11 hours ago, JAYJAY1979 said:

Lynch said he regretted revealing the killer and that killed the shoe

Leo needs a new pair.

[Nashville]

9 hours ago, dwmckim said:

Leo needs a new pair.

Sorry - the football is empty.