S07.E18: The Guardian

[Camera One]

I just fell asleep twice in the middle of trying to rewatch this episode.  

[Shanna Marie]

This episode makes me really wonder if they actually read what they wrote, and if they'd paid any attention at all to their own series.

So, we supposedly have Belle, Mrs. "He has a good heart," telling Rumple from beyond the grave that he'd better hurry up and find the Guardian before he goes dark again. I guess because his heart is so very good.

Belle supposedly researched this Guardian stuff and is totally okay with Rumple sticking some innocent -- who has to be super innocent to qualify -- with the burden and power he's trying to get rid of.

And we have Rumple lying to and deceiving WHook and Alice, setting Alice up to turn her into the Guardian without her knowing what it's about. But because he backs off at the last minute, he's their friend and they owe him.

Then this totally good person who supposedly learned his lesson there goes and ruins his grandson's chance for a cure.

There was also the mention of what's up with Gideon, the son Rumple has more or less abandoned and who Belle abandoned by deliberately growing old and dying at a faster rate. Do they remember that Rumple's whole story has centered around abandonment, that he was screwed up by both his parents abandoning him, and then the first curse was all about him trying to find his son after he abandoned him? But he goes and abandons the next one while he's still quite young. Yeah, they at least got him into his teens or young adulthood, but they're bailing on him before they really see what he's like grown up, see him have a family or a career. I hope the poor kid is in touch with Storybrooke so that he has at least some kind of family ties and isn't alone in the universe. Powerful people with no connections tend to go down scary paths.

And they seem to have forgotten that the whole point behind Rumple abandoning Bae was that Bae was going to a world without magic where Rumple wouldn't be the Dark One anymore. Wouldn't that be a simple solution to the problem?

On the other side of the story, Margot and Tilly's date was cute, and Colin got to do more action hero stuff, which he seemed to be enjoying.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Shanna Marie

[Camera One]

I finally finished the episode, and I could hardly handle the multiple cuts to that goofy photo of Belle coupled with the disembodied voice in that ultra emotional moment where Rumple "sacrificed seeing Belle again" (words from the Writer) for Alice's sake.  

So Rumple didn't turn any shade of green the entire time he was doing horrible things in Season 6, so what's speeding up the scaliness now?  Why was he starting to act crazy talking to himself and repeating "spin spin spin"?   

Rumple told Whook that Gothel used Black Magic to curse him and any cure would be just as dark.  But the cure for the darkest of all Dark Curses was True Love's Kiss, which wasn't black magic.  And toadstools from Wonderland are considered Black Magic?

We had Alice having to receive letters from her father, who was actually standing outside the house.  Why not have a conversation across the yard from each other.  When Rumple mentioned having to wait until Whook was gone, Alice didn't seem at all surprised that her father was hanging around outside.  

I don't remember if we ever got payoff with Sabine/Tiana finding out that Drew was working with Dr. Facilier.

I don't get the bookstore that Alice and Robyn were visiting.  They were planning to sit there with coffee and just read the books without buying them?   Isn't that what a library is for?   

I'm not sure where this cliffhanger of the paternity test was supposed to go.  The only two alternatives are Henry and Jacinda having a one-night stand while intoxicated and not remembering each other, or Henry donating to a sperm bank and Jacinda going through fertility treatments.  

Spoiler

If I remember correctly, the show didn't have them discussing the practicalities of this.

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

14 hours ago, Camera One said:

Rumple told Whook that Gothel used Black Magic to curse him and any cure would be just as dark.  But the cure for the darkest of all Dark Curses was True Love's Kiss, which wasn't black magic.  And toadstools from Wonderland are considered Black Magic?

Yeah, that bit baffled me, along with the implication that Rumple helping WHook and Alice would be dark because of using dark magic, and would prevent him from going to heaven to be with Belle -- even though he'd be doing it to help them. So even doing something good with magic is dark if it's dark magic? And it's still dark even if it's doing good? And helping someone is bad if it's dark? I don't understand the morality of this universe.

14 hours ago, Camera One said:

I'm not sure where this cliffhanger of the paternity test was supposed to go.  The only two alternatives are Henry and Jacinda having a one-night stand while intoxicated and not remembering each other, or Henry donating to a sperm bank and Jacinda going through fertility treatments.  

I would think that the automatic assumption would be that there was a mix-up with the test, given that they didn't know each other until recently. They also seem to have forgotten that Henry has cursed memories of having been married, so if Lucy's his daughter, that means he cheated on his now-dead wife. It's not a case of "Wow, Lucy's right about us being her parents!" but more like "Wow, the hospital really must have screwed up, considering we never had sex, and when Lucy was born I was married to someone else and had my own daughter."

This comes back to the problem of everyone having cursed memories, so that there are no genuine relationships. Even with the curse, Emma knew she'd given up a child for adoption. But it's a huge leap to believe that the child of a woman you never met until recently is yours. As little other evidence as they've had for the curse theory, It seems unlikely that they'd jump to the conclusion that Lucy is right about them all being fairy tale characters under a curse, so that they're really married and Lucy is really their kid, and his other wife and kid never existed, or maybe are vague memories of Ella and Lucy and having lost them due to the curse.

[Camera One]

13 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I would think that the automatic assumption would be that there was a mix-up with the test, given that they didn't know each other until recently.

Definitely, I think the next step might be to go to the hospital to do a second test.  I suppose that was deemed not necessary with the line Henry had saying the hospital is sure.

Maybe they're trying to replicate the Season 1 situation where Emma faced more and more clues that eventually led to her belief, but even in the first season, it was a frustrating see-saw back and forth, and Emma's final moment of belief was abrupt and out of desperation, with the True Love's Kiss, which actually worked so immediately told Emma that what Henry was saying was indeed true.  In this case, Adult Henry had already tried a TLK on Lucy and failed (which really says something, eh?).

In Season 7, from Cursed Henry and Jacinda's perspective, there was even less to go on, other than this blood test and how Nick's heart was stabbed from inside his body (which could be explained away as a weird health anomaly).  Plus there was Nick's delusions, which, as Shanna Marie said, should have led to their questioning Lucy's possible genetic psychological condition.

The only way they could have realistic reactions was if both Henry/Fake Wife and Jacinda/Nick had false memories of going through fertility treatments at the same clinic, so there was a mixup there.  But still, that doesn't reinforce anything else Lucy was saying about fairy tale characters and their past lives in the Disenchanted Forest.

Quote

Yeah, that bit baffled me, along with the implication that Rumple helping WHook and Alice would be dark because of using dark magic, and would prevent him from going to heaven to be with Belle 

Could a possible solution be Rumple finding Wish Rumple and asking Wish Rumple to stab Original Recipe Rumple with the Dagger?   Original Rumple can finally die and Wish Rumple would absorb even more Darkness.  Win win. 

Edited December 21, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Maybe they're trying to replicate the Season 1 situation where Emma faced more and more clues that eventually led to her belief, but even in the first season, it was a frustrating see-saw back and forth, and Emma's final moment of belief was abrupt and out of desperation, with the True Love's Kiss, which actually worked so immediately told Emma that what Henry was saying was indeed true.

I think Emma's clues were more obvious -- things like the storybook that depicted people in the town, then the whole incident with Jefferson, with the clincher being Henry passing out from eating the apple tart. After that, Emma fought a dragon, so the TLK was icing on the cake.

In season 7, no one made the connection between the characters in the book and the people in the neighborhood. I don't recall Lucy showing anyone the storybook that was about them (or at least the page telling about Henry's poison -- I don't remember how much she had). There was no obvious bit of magic like Henry claiming the tart was made with a poison apple and then him collapsing the second he ate it. The DNA test doesn't have the same magic to it. I think they would have needed to see the storybook illustrations of them.

But then all along Season One Henry had a lot more evidence and reason to believe. Lucy just kept repeating her theories for no reason, and they never bothered delving into that.

[Camera One]

So Rumple wanted The Guardian to take away his Dark One powers.  Why did Gothel want The Guardian again?  We know that Gothel also wanted the Dark One powers too.  Did that have anything to do with her search for The Guardian?  Meanwhile, Dr. Facilier wanted the Dark One powers but was not searching for The Guardian.  

We find out in this episode that The Guardian protects The Dagger from being stolen.  Why wasn't The Dagger "protected" before now?  Gothel supposedly wants it and she was in the police station multiple times.  Was The Dagger even in danger?  Dr. Facilier had no idea who took it, so he didn't even know where it was.

So is there only one Guardian in all the realms at a time?  Was there one before Alice? 

Why wasn't Anastasia The Guardian?  It's all very confusing.  A&E, please help.  You're our only hope.

[Speakeasy]

When Alice had the dagger it looked like it was melting, am I right in thinking she would have absorbed it? So would she be the Dark One or would she just have the power contained inside her and be obligated to live forever because the power would keep her alive?

See I don't know any of this but the thing is Rumpelstiltskin doesn't either, the dagger has apparently been passed from Dark One to Dark One since it was created, it's never been taken up by a Guardian, so all he has here is the theory. 

I would guess he hasn't let someone else stab him because he doesn't think he'll get to Heaven if he willingly passes his powers and evilness to the kind of person who would want to be the Dark One, since they would inevitably be a bastard who would go around being horrible otherwise they wouldn't want to be the Dark One.

But he has no idea if giving it to Alice is any better. Maybe the whole Guardian thing doesn't actually work, Alice melts the dagger and then the Darkness emerges as a big blob of evil and eats the world, as was the fear in season 4.

Or maybe Alice becomes the Dark One but with no dagger to rein her in, the poor girl is already a bit unstable, how well is she going to react to hallucinating a vision of her dear Papa stomping around her saying that if she really loved him she'd get justice on the people who hurt him? I mean does this Guardian thing mean she's so supernaturally nice she can hold out against all the temptations of evil forever, or is it just a magical mechanic that lets her melt the dagger? 

Cos Emma was a magical chosen one and a nice enough lady but she was ready to kill a stranger within hours of being the Dark One, on the prompting of a hallucination of someone she doesn't even like.

And does it make her indestructible or just immune to age? Why was Gothel looking for the Guardian? Knowing her 'so I can have her suck up the Darkness then eat her and absorb the power myself' seems like as good a guess as any.

So Rumpelstiltskin might look callous fir attempting to force immortality on an innocent girl to serve his own ends, but if you look at it from his perspective it's actually much, much worse.

[Shanna Marie]

8 hours ago, Speakeasy said:

When Alice had the dagger it looked like it was melting, am I right in thinking she would have absorbed it? So would she be the Dark One or would she just have the power contained inside her and be obligated to live forever because the power would keep her alive?

My impression was that she would have become something like Merlin, with the power and immortality but without the evil. I'm not sure why that was going to be different from the way Emma became the Dark One. The way Emma took on that power seemed to be a very Guardian-like act, so it should have made her a Guardian, not a Dark One. Of course, the answer is that they hadn't come up with the concept of the Guardian then, and they still hadn't really developed it and figured out what it meant when they wrote this.

I noticed from the original thread that there was some confusion about what was happening because it looked like Alice was going to destroy the dagger and the power, and Rumple pulled out at the last second because he didn't want to give it up, after all, and that was what turned him sparkly again. But then the way they talked about it, they made it sound like Alice was going to take on the power and Rumple pulled back because he couldn't do that to her. And I guess he turned sparkly because doing something good with the Dark One power gets punished or makes you more of a Dark One (see also Emma going full Dark One for saving Hook's life). What they showed and the way they talked about it were totally different. I guess the special effects people didn't get the memo.

8 hours ago, Speakeasy said:

Or maybe Alice becomes the Dark One but with no dagger to rein her in, the poor girl is already a bit unstable, how well is she going to react to hallucinating a vision of her dear Papa stomping around her saying that if she really loved him she'd get justice on the people who hurt him?

You know, that's something they never dealt with, that Emma and Hook were both former Dark Ones. If there were future Dark Ones, would they have a Head Hook or Head Emma the way Emma and Hook were tormented by visions of past Dark Ones? Did Emma and Hook retain the power to sense the dagger (the way Emma did right after Hook's death)? If Alice took on that power, she might have had a Head Hook Prime, and would she have realized that this wasn't actually her father?

I find it hard to believe that any version of Hook would want to become friends with Rumple after he almost turned his daughter into something anything like a Dark One. He'd be more apt to renew his drive for revenge. I guess WHook would be less angry about that, since he didn't have Hook Prime's experience with the Dark One, but still, going behind his back and lying to Alice to nearly do that to her is beyond the pale, so deciding at the last second not to do it doesn't mitigate it much.

[Camera One]

The whole setup for this episode was pretty stupid.  Nothing would have needed to happen if:

a) Rumple didn't just leave his precious Dagger at the police station

b) Regina didn't just leave her precious magic in the basement

c) Tilley could sense weight in her backpack

In fact, nothing happened overall.  The Dagger was lost.  The Dagger was found.  Henry didn't get cured.  Henry still had no idea what was up with the paternity test results.  Dr. Facilier didn't do/get anything new.   Rogers still had no clue about anything.  

[Speakeasy]

19 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

My impression was that she would have become something like Merlin, with the power and immortality but without the evil. I'm not sure why that was going to be different from the way Emma became the Dark One. The way Emma took on that power seemed to be a very Guardian-like act, so it should have made her a Guardian, not a Dark One. Of course, the answer is that they hadn't come up with the concept of the Guardian then, and they still hadn't really developed it and figured out what it meant when they wrote this.

If I wanted to be charitable I'd say maybe Emma could have done that but when she sucked up the Darkness her heart had already been darkened so she was no longer pure enough to be a Guardian, so she became a Dark One instead because there was just enough darkness inside her already for the Darkness to latch on and darkify her. 

Um hang on: Rumpy-poo had a shiny new pure heart and he still managed to be the Dark One again at the end if 5A. Well, maybe his heart was darkened when he fucked everyone over by casting that spell to get the darkness back. Plus he wasn't any kind of chosen one at the time so he couldn't be a Guardian anyway.

Quote

I noticed from the original thread that there was some confusion about what was happening because it looked like Alice was going to destroy the dagger and the power, and Rumple pulled out at the last second because he didn't want to give it up, after all, and that was what turned him sparkly again. But then the way they talked about it, they made it sound like Alice was going to take on the power and Rumple pulled back because he couldn't do that to her. 

Oh, but that would have been so like Rumpelstiltskin though, and to then act like he'd taken on this great burden for Alice's sake because he couldn't let an innocent suffer in his place, that's classic Gold.

Plus his wife was the one who did all the research while they were at the edge of realms, it's not like Alice or Hook could tell if he was lying.

Yes. This is what happened 😋

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You know, that's something they never dealt with, that Emma and Hook were both former Dark Ones. If there were future Dark Ones, would they have a Head Hook or Head Emma the way Emma and Hook were tormented by visions of past Dark Ones?

I thpugh Morrison did a pretty good take on Dark Swan when she was pretending to be really evil, she gave this impression she was seething with resentment, disgust and anger, and Dark Hook was fun particularly when he was mocking Runplestiltskin in challenging him to a duel, hand gestures and all.

I'd like to think that both of them were around trolling Rumpelstiltskin all throughout his retirement. 

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If Alice took on that power, she might have had a Head Hook Prime, and would she have realized that this wasn't actually her father?

Again this would have been fun, if really nasty for Alice. You could really get into the idea of what separates the two versions of the guy, and what really defines him as a person, if it can be boiled down to anything so simple.

Arrange it in the right way and that could be as good a reason to keep them separated as the heart curse was, or at least a better way to separate them so they could get heart cursed than Fairyland's Best Dad Wish Hook putting his daughter's future at risk to fight some preening stranger for calling him names.

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I find it hard to believe that any version of Hook would want to become friends with Rumple after he almost turned his daughter into something anything like a Dark One. He'd be more apt to renew his drive for revenge. I guess WHook would be less angry about that, since he didn't have Hook Prime's experience with the Dark One, but still, going behind his back and lying to Alice to nearly do that to her is beyond the pale, so deciding at the last second not to do it doesn't mitigate it much.

Well, Alice did agree to it and, taking the story as written and ignoring the plot holes and Chekhov's Guns, it was a big deal for Rumplestiltskin to genuinely put the needs of another person, and more an acquaintance/lackey than someone he was close to, ahead if his own. 

I mean from what we can see he is rapidly sinking into darkness and insanity, and it seems like in the past he's stayed lucid because he had a plan to work on (Curse 1 to find Bae) or someone to hold his attention (Belle), at this point he was looking for the Guardian but he's just given that up and accepted that he will probably be doomed to cold lonely madness, accompanied only by the jeering, hateful whispees of a thousand evil ghosts. Forever.

I don't know if Wish Hook would appreciate all that though. Maybe he just thought being nice to him would stop him from trying it again?

Edited December 23, 2019 by Speakeasy
Amended analysus

[Camera One]

6 hours ago, Speakeasy said:

I mean from what we can see he is rapidly sinking into darkness and insanity, and it seems like in the past he's stayed lucid because he had a plan to work on (Curse 1 to find Bae) or someone to hold his attention (Belle), at this point he was looking for the Guardian but he's just given that up and accepted that he will probably be doomed to cold lonely madness, accompanied only by the jeering, hateful whispees of a thousand evil ghosts. Forever.

I'm trying to remember, but have we ever seen Rumple descend into insanity due to being the Dark One?  It just felt sort of random and contrived that he quickly became Sad Sparkly One.  The fact that Rumple considering using Anastasia as a Guardian to take away his Darkness earlier in the season significantly reduces the impact of his "sacrifice" for Alice.  If he wanted to "deserve" going to heaven, why wasn't he doing extra good deeds instead?  It's not like Rumple had no one... he still had his son Gideon.

Not that this universe even works like that because you have innocent people like Aunt Em doomed to eternity while mass murdering Cora walks into the light because she realizes she loves her two daughters.

This is yet another case where the poor worldbuilding makes it very difficult to feel for the characters.   The Guardian was even worse than The Savior or The Author and who knew that was even possible.

Isn't it funny how two episodes after Rumple claimed Henry was his "favorite character in the book" and all those touching scenes, he screwed over his grandson again.  In 7A, it seemed like Henry was in such danger that Roni had to try to break up Henry and Jacinda in case of TLK.  But now in latter 7B, Roni couldn't care less that Henry and Jacinda are getting closer, while Rumple says that Henry isn't in any major danger.  Which is it?  

Edited December 23, 2019 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

42 minutes ago, Camera One said:

This is yet another case where the poor worldbuilding makes it very difficult to feel for the characters.   The Guardian was even worse than The Savior or The Author and who knew that was even possible.

The way they were talking about the Guardian, it seemed like not only a resolution to Rumple's character arc, but the Dark One problem as a whole. There had to be a way to destroy the Dark One without a chance for another vessel to take Rumple's place. While I remember Cora saying in S2 that if Rumple died his power would just boil off into the air, didn't he die already? Dead Dark Ones just get sent to the Dark One's vault and get resurrected. That also happened to Hook. So how was Rumple dying supposed to send him to The Bad Place with Belle and get rid of the curse for good?

I don't think the idea of the Guardian being a benevolent entity that can take the Dark One power is necessarily a bad idea. But making it any innocent girl is dumb. There's also the question of whether or not the Dark One powers are inherently evil. I think by S7 we'd all say dark magic like that has no place in a perfect world, so why give it to an innocent? Wouldn't that just corrupt them? If dark magic is evil, shouldn't it be completely destroyed?

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I finally finished the episode, and I could hardly handle the multiple cuts to that goofy photo of Belle coupled with the disembodied voice in that ultra emotional moment where Rumple "sacrificed seeing Belle again" (words from the Writer) for Alice's sake.  

Picture!Belle is probably one of the most unintentionally funny moments in the show.

Edited December 23, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

15 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I don't think the idea of the Guardian being a benevolent entity that can take the Dark One power is necessarily a bad idea. But making it any innocent girl is dumb.

Instead of The Guardian, were they basically trying to find a new Sorcerer?  Someone like Merlin who was willing to take on immortality.  If all had gone according to plan in 5A, could Emma have obliterated The Dark One?  I don't remember 5A enough to answer this question.  If Merlin didn't die, would all have been well?  What would have happened if they went and freed Wish Merlin from the tree?  Since wouldn't he be still there?  

[Shanna Marie]

10 hours ago, Speakeasy said:

Um hang on: Rumpy-poo had a shiny new pure heart and he still managed to be the Dark One again at the end if 5A. Well, maybe his heart was darkened when he fucked everyone over by casting that spell to get the darkness back.

Yeah, I would think that knowing Emma was planning to sacrifice herself to end the darkness but plotting to hijack the sacrifice so he could get the power back, and then going through with it while watching Hook sacrifice himself and Emma have to kill him to do so -- and letting them go through with it instead of just siphoning off the power and letting Hook live -- darkened his heart pretty thoroughly, maybe not quite back to "lump of charcoal" levels, but definitely too dark for him to be any kind of Guardian.

But Emma was a Savior who was taking on the power to save everyone, without knowing what cost it would have for her, and I'd say that's as Guardian-like as what Alice was doing, since there was no imminent threat when Alice was doing it. She was just being more or less duped into doing it because Rumple wanted her to.

10 hours ago, Speakeasy said:

Oh, but that would have been so like Rumpelstiltskin though, and to then act like he'd taken on this great burden for Alice's sake because he couldn't let an innocent suffer in his place, that's classic Gold.

Plus his wife was the one who did all the research while they were at the edge of realms, it's not like Alice or Hook could tell if he was lying.

Yes. This is what happened 😋

So we all now have a shared headcanon, that Alice was just going to destroy the dagger and the power and Rumple couldn't go through with it and lied about it. That's totally in character for him.

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

The fact that Rumple considering using Anastasia as a Guardian to take away his Darkness earlier in the season significantly reduces the impact of his "sacrifice" for Alice.  If he wanted to "deserve" going to heaven, why wasn't he doing extra good deeds instead?  It's not like Rumple had no one... he still had his son Gideon.

His son, whom he ditched for his quest for death, after his wife ditched him to grow old and die faster so she could help Rumple find death. It seems like the very fact of focusing on trying to get into heaven rather than living a life worthy of heaven would disqualify him.

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

While I remember Cora saying in S2 that if Rumple died his power would just boil off into the air, didn't he die already?

I think there were two different situations. In season 2, he was dying of the poison, so the power would die with him, but I suspect he'd have ended up in the Underworld. When he did actually die at the end of 3A, he killed himself with his dagger, which probably created some kind of loop, since you take on the power of the Dark One by killing the Dark One with the dagger, so he took on his own power by killing himself. That may be why he could be resurrected. The power didn't die with him, but no one else got the power.

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

If Merlin didn't die, would all have been well? 

I think the problem was Merlin getting tethered to Excalibur and Hook being mortally wounded by Excalibur. That seemed to be the one-two punch -- it forced Merlin to do stuff that seems to have darkened his magic, and then Emma stopped the spell in order to save Hook, so it all fell apart. It is interesting that Rumple and Belle don't seem to have considered looking for Wish Merlin and doing it right this time.

Actually, there were a lot of things they didn't seem to have tried, including the one that set all this off, living in the World Without Magic where he isn't a Dark One.

Going back to my earlier comment about Colin getting to play action hero in this. I made the mistake of thinking about the timeline and realized that this is a man in his 60s doing all that vaulting over railings and tackling people. I'm assuming that WHook was physically de-aged and not just glamoured to look young again. Otherwise, he'd be in his 90s, which is even more ridiculous. But if Hook Prime was about 35 at the end of season 6 (which is about as young as you can go and make his backstory work), then Robyn, who was an infant at the end of season 6, is 18 when Lucy is born, and the curse hits at Lucy's 8th birthday, and then it's apparently 3 years of curse, that puts him at about 64. And yet he looks, acts and is treated like he's in his early 30s. And there is never an explanation for that.

[Camera One]

27 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I made the mistake of thinking about the timeline and realized that this is a man in his 60s doing all that vaulting over railings and tackling people. 

I commend the show for shunning ageism.  They also have the main character in his 30s falling in love with a woman in her 60s which is very unconventional and Brave™.  Not to mention The Blind Witch doing such physical jumps at her advanced age.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Camera One

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

So we all now have a shared headcanon, that Alice was just going to destroy the dagger and the power and Rumple couldn't go through with it and lied about it. That's totally in character for him.

It's hard to go with headcanon when it's directly contradicted by Brigitte Hales.  She even said the whole concept of Rumple making a huge sacrifice to make Alice happy was planned for months and their guiding light for the entire arc.  I think it's better to weep happy tears at how much Rumple had bonded with his mentee and how much he truly loved Belle to give up his chance to be with her in eternity.  He had grown so much from his complicated relationship with his previous mentees Regina and Zelena.

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But Emma was a Savior who was taking on the power to save everyone, without knowing what cost it would have for her, and I'd say that's as Guardian-like as what Alice was doing, since there was no imminent threat when Alice was doing it. She was just being more or less duped into doing it because Rumple wanted her to.

Emma was pretty much as pure as could be.  She handled being The Dark One admirably.  I know she took out Violet's heart, but seriously, that was the one time it was justified for the greater good.

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His son, whom he ditched for his quest for death, after his wife ditched him to grow old and die faster so she could help Rumple find death. It seems like the very fact of focusing on trying to get into heaven rather than living a life worthy of heaven would disqualify him.

Worst case scenario, Rumple goes to the Underworld with Unfinished Business™ until Gideon dies.  Gideon forgives him and he could cross the bridge into the Light to be reunited with Belle.  Or Rumple can forgive his father and mother and the three Stiltskins can enter heaven together.

Edited December 24, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

It's hard to go with headcanon when it's directly contradicted by Brigitte Hales.  She even said the whole concept of Rumple making a huge sacrifice to make Alice happy was planned for months and their guiding light for the entire arc. 

If it's not on the screen, it's not canon. If you have to explain it on Twitter, you didn't write it right in the first place. What they showed and what they told were totally different, and Rumple's a known liar. So headcanon stands. So there. 🙂

And, really, it's consistent with what happened later (in the chronology). Rumple realizing that he can't stick an innocent girl with this burden, turning sparkly and crazy because of it, and then going on to find another innocent girl that he plans to stick with it makes no sense. Rumple not being able to go through with giving up his power but claiming he was sparing an innocent girl from being stuck with it, turning sparkly and crazy, and going on to find another innocent girl he plans to stick with it, one he doesn't know and who's the daughter of an enemy rather than a girl who's become a friend and who's the daughter of someone who became a friend and then not going through with it (character growth!) is actually more coherent writing. Okay, so they probably didn't mean it that way, but the special effects guys saved them from themselves by making what was happening look like Alice was about to destroy the dagger and the power rather than like Alice was absorbing the power.

 

[Camera One]

LOL, that does make a lot more sense than what the writers were claiming.  

To me, the special effects/makeup people made it look like Alice was becoming darker and liking it.  The glowing magic was spinning around in a shining ball like she was playing around with it.   I didn't get the sense she was destroying the power, but that she enjoyed her new-found power.  I don't know if that was intentional too.

Maybe Rumple prevented the creation of The Good Sorceress™.  

Edited December 24, 2019 by Camera One

[Speakeasy]

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

Emma was pretty much as pure as could be.  She handled being The Dark One admirably.  I know she took out Violet's heart, but seriously, that was the one time it was justified for the greater good.

Emma's heart was already darkened when she took on the Darkness because she had killed Cruella, though.

Don't look at me like that, it was in the script! It was a huge plot point, that they needed her to be darkened to use her blood to make the magic ink.

I'm going with the idea here that any use of magic to kill darkens your heart, in the same way as using the Grail for violent ends, even if they were understandable, created the dark one. Hence also why Snow got her dark spot for killing Cora because she used dark magic where neither of the Charmings ever worried about hacking up black knights all day.

Quote

Worst case scenario, Rumple goes to the Underworld with Unfinished Business™ until Gideon dies.  Gideon forgives him and he could cross the bridge into the Light to be reunited with Belle.  Or Rumple can forgive his father and mother and the three Stiltskins can enter heaven together.

He melted his father, though, so he couldn't forgive him 😋

Also I'd assume if he dies in the LWM and his power just boils away then he doesn't get to take it with him... Maybe he's not keen on the idea of going down there without the ability to freeze people or TK them into the river of souls. Let's not forget if the Wish People are real and retroactively have real pasts that intersect with the rest of the real multiverse there's presumably a Ghost Wish Milah and Ghost Wish Gaston down there, maybe a Ghost Wish Fairy Godmother and a Ghost Wish Carter and a Ghost Wish Beowulf and...

Wait...

Yes;

THE UNDERWORLD, we see MR GOLD huddling behind a pile of crates by the dicks, a thick mist covers the scene, he is breathing heavily, gritting his teeth. Suddenly we hear CLANG-CLANG sound of something heavy and metal being banged against a railing, a voice starts to sing in a slow, mocking voice.

GHOST WISH GASTON: Through the mist (CLANG)/through the woods (CLANG)/Through the darkness and the shadows...

A silhouette emerges from the mists behind MR GOLD, he frantically gets to his feet, crouching and scurrying away, ducking behind some barrells.

GHOST FAIRY GODMOTHER: It's a nightmare/but it's one exciting ride...

MR GOLD glances nervously over the barrells to see more solouhettes all around him, he sinks to the ground and crawls toward a low wall...

GHOST TAMARA: (walks out of the mist, crosses herself) Say a prayer/then we're there/at the drawbridge of a castle...

GHOST BEOWULF: (shakes his head, snarling;) and there's something truly terrible inside...

two sillouhettes emerge ahead of MR GOLD, he stops and drops down to the floor, close up on his face, he is terrified...

GHOST WISH MAURICE: (Emerges out of the fog, roaring angrily) It's a beast!/He's got fangs!/Razor sharp ones!

GHOST CARTER: (points accusingly at MR GOLD) Massive paws/killer claws for the feast!

MR GOLD pushes himself to his feet, snarls and charges forward, stumbling and snarling he manages to evade GHOST WISH MAURICE'S attempt to grab him. GHOST WISH MAURICE doesn't seem too put out by this, and just watched him run with a sneer.

The ghosts all line up and watch MR GOLD flee, a final solouhette starts walking our if the mist in the midst of them all, singing slowly, in a voice full of resentment and quiet fury....

SILHOUETTE: See him roar/see him foam/but we're not going home/til he's dead....

the SILHOUETTE emerges at the head of the ghosts, it is of course GHOST WISH MILAH

GHOST WISH MILAH: (in a voice mixing unfiltered rage and vicious exultation) Good and dead!

KILL THE BEAST!

Edited December 24, 2019 by Speakeasy
Song

[KingOfHearts]

Wouldn't Anna be the Guardian, LOL? She was tempted by darkness, but turned away. Wasn't she supposed to be pure hearted enough to break Merlin's protection spell? She never did anything murder-y or objectively wrong. I feel like she would've been a perfect candidate.

Edited December 24, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[legaleagle53]

On 12/21/2019 at 7:38 PM, Camera One said:

A&E, please help.  You're our only hope.

You're screwed, then.

[tennisgurl]

No wonder it took forever for me to get to this episode, its so freaking boring. Rumples whole plot is basically just a re-tread of every other Rumple plot we have seen over the years, just even more dull. Rumple does something sketchy then backs out at the last minute and is hailed as the best and most awesome hero ever? Belle gives another "You have a pure heeeeearrrttttt" speech (from beyond the grave this time!) that means nothing? Rumple gives into darkness but then not really maybe? Its all just so lame, and the only thing that makes this even kind of watchable is that Bobby is finally given something to do, and he is putting some effort in. Plus it has a decent amount of Alice/Tilly, who is always a delight, and she and Margot are quite cute here. I actually like them a lot more than Alice and Robyn, weirdly enough, probably because they decided to give Robyn all of those annoying Once "Srtong Female Character" traits and a typical Once meet cute where one half of the couple is an asshole to the other half for no reason, and the other one finds it endearing for no reason. In Hyperion Heights, they actually seem rather organic and are very rootable as a couple. 

Saviors and Guardians and Authors, they all end up being basically interchangeable at this point. Its even worse having watched a bunch of the show all at once, they are all so vaugly defined and smooshed together into the plot, that they just all run together. Its just "we need special person to do special magic thing because plot" over and over again.

[Camera One]

I didn't realize Whook got Robin Hood's classic line in this one.

This was in the flashback, after Alice almost absorbed Rumple's Darkness.

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WHOOK: Well, I just wanted to tell you everyone was right about you. You're not the Crocodile I knew. I owe you a great debt. If I can ever repay you, I will.

RUMPLE: Dark One and a pirate... friends?

WHOOK: Perhaps it's time for a new story.

 

On 12/20/2019 at 6:55 PM, Shanna Marie said:

So, we supposedly have Belle, Mrs. "He has a good heart," telling Rumple from beyond the grave that he'd better hurry up and find the Guardian before he goes dark again. I guess because his heart is so very good.

I totally forgot about this until I rewatched last night.  If "without her", Rumple just can't stay good, then he's not good!

Edited August 19, 2020 by Camera One

[Melgaypet]

Enchanted Forestians have a weird sense of obligation. "You decided at the last minute not to fill my daughter with evil and doom her to some horrible if unspecified fate? Dude, I owe you!"

Today, I didn't run over a pedestrian in the crosswalk. I saved that person's life! I'm a hero and they are in my debt. That's how it works. Apparently.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Melgaypet

[Camera One]

8 minutes ago, Melgaypet said:

Today, I didn't run over a pedestrian in the crosswalk. I saved that person's life! I'm a hero and they are in my debt. That's how it works. Apparently.

Even if you had actually planned/intended to hit the pedestrian, they still owe you a debt if you decide not to.  It's a great life philosophy!

[Speakeasy]

In Robin Hood's case it kind of makes sense he'd think he owed Rumplestiltskin since Rumpykins skinned him alive - repeatedly- and that kind of thing will mess with your perspective.

Reek! Reek! It rhymes with shriek!

[tennisgurl]

So much of this show makes more sense if you just imagine that the most common illness among Enchanted Forestians is Stockholm Syndrome, it gets caught like the common cold.