Season Four: The Stones of Suck

[BkWurm1]

Lois in "Krypto" just emphasized just how obnoxious and unlikeable Lois is as a character for me. Calling Shelby "Clarkie" or telling him he can't name the dog what he wants, acting just well, like Clark is the guest, and not her damn self.

 

Clark's utter pleasure in Shelby making Lois sneeze and whap her with his wet tail and his pure glee when Lois stepped in dog poop were the things that pretty much put Lois in the pseudo sister category some how far more firmly than Chloe ever was.  I think it's that as a sister of a brother that liked to point and laugh, I see such a distinction between the two friendships. 

 

And yes, it peeves me to no END that Clark falls for Lana (again!) when he's got amnesia. Bah!

 

It just confirmed to me that it was all about appearance.  It's not like he had a conversation or saw her doing something wonderful.  She came down the stairs and smiled at someone.  And his heat vision went off.  It was all libido.  From there he built up a fantasy about the pretty girl he had the hots for.  He didn't fall in love, he fell in lust.  Chloe is the one that bumped it up for him by saying Lana was the love of his life. 

 

Taking a follow up comment over to the relationship topic. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Clark's utter pleasure in Shelby making Lois sneeze and whap her with his wet tail and his pure glee when Lois stepped in dog poop were the things that pretty much put Lois in the pseudo sister category some how far more firmly than Chloe ever was.  I think it's that as a sister of a brother that liked to point and laugh, I see such a distinction between the two friendships.

 

Agreed! And I loved that grin Clark had on his face as we walked through the fence. But the sibling factor was even more clear and cemented for me in "Lucy." At the breakfast table, when Lois has "made" breakfast for everyone. How Clark looks at her and says "you want something" in a way that only parents or siblings do.

 

 

I won't lie; I completely fast forwarded all scenes that weren't Clark and Chloe; Clark; Clark, Martha and Jonathan and was able to finish this season last night.
 
Again, had to roll my eyes at the ease of how Lana and Clark were able to get to China, during school, and back again in "a couple of days."
 
And oh, how conveeeeeenient, that after Isabelle takes over Lana's body when they're in China, that robe thingamajig just happens to be lying around for Lana/Isabelle to put on, so she can do her Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon dance.  Kristen continues to make me cringe at the way she speaks Latin when trying to dig up the stone, being all, witchy and oooh, scarryyyyyy. 
 
So, it took a beating from EVUHL Lex to wipe out Clark's "goodness" that had changed Lionel? I had forgotten what had caused him to become Evuhl Lionel again.
 
And I still can't pinpoint just when she show runners decided to make Jason all EVUHL, and that his meeting Lana was a plan concocted by his mother and himself.
 
"Spirit" continues to also be one of my favorite episodes. The way Annette O'Toole was able to play Dawn, was absolutely hilarious.  At the same time, it peeves me because Clark couldn't dance ONE dance with Chloe? Ugh.
 
FORTRESS OF SOLITUDE!!!!!!!
 
There's something just so...sexy about how Clark holds that stone that birthed the Fortress.
 
And proof that Chloe is the BEST FRIEND ever, that she's able to keep a poker face and not reveal what she knows about Clark when being threatened and scared. Loved how she shoved Lex to the wall, before she walked toward the opening.
 
And it saddens me that Lex is now EVIL. When did that happen? When was the final...turning point? Onyx?
 
"Ageless" AND "Forever" are both useless episodes and I'll never understand what the point of them was.
 
On to Season 5! Which I started watching last night!

Edited October 15, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[GHScorpiosRule]

No judging! No judging!

 

so I'm on Season 4 and there must have been a break between filming the fourth episode, "Devoted" until the fifth, which was "Run" I think, because Chloe's hair has grown and is the style we'll see for the next four seasons.

 

I also noticed there was a huge growth from Chloe this season. There was this maturity that you could see. That even though she's still in love with Clark, the air of her looking pathetic and looking at Clark with sad eyes is gone. As is the insecurity that the show foisted on her in the previous season. Or that Annette's hair has grown at least four inches. It just touched her shoulders in "Devoted" and is well past her shoulders, just touching her breast area.

 

Also, Only two times when Chloe and Clark kiss that he's startled and doesn't kiss Chloe back: Season one "Hug" and "Devoted." BUT, there's the near kiss in "Tempeist."  And then in "Magnetic" when Chloe kisses him when they're looking into that freak's MRI, and Clark is very much engaged in that kiss, his hands are also starting to pull Chloe closer, just as he was very much engaged in "Zod."  Then there's "Bound" when he and Chloe are re-enacting Lex and his one night stand, and though they don't kiss, Clark's expression is I don't wanna do this becuase I don't wanna get close to you, and then right before the elevator door opens, they share this look, and Clark is looking at Chloe with...something and she says "hi" softly. And then that woman with her twins break the moment.

 

So I want to just slap Clark when he tells Chloe he doesn't feel the same at the end of "Devoted" because dude, you totally do.  And just beause you're not over Lana yet, doesn't mean you don't have those feelings for Chloe, which you submerged.

 

And Chloe totally figured out about Clark's secret by the end of "Jinxed."  The look on her face when she noticed her hand cuffs were broken and she was free.

 

If I had one complaint about "Transference" it was Chloe's line to Clark about how he'd already used up his quota of apologies. When noooo, Chloe, it's you who has the quota of apologies, because of your continued digging into his past and it coming to bite you in the ass.  I don't know why Clark didn't tell Chloe that it was a meteor whatever transference that had Lionel inside him. Hello! Chloe has the Wall of Weird! She, of all people would understand!

 

Therapy my ass.

Edited November 17, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[BkWurm1]

If I had one complaint about "Transference" it was Chloe's line to Clark about how he'd already used up his quota of apologies. When noooo, Chloe, it's you who has the quota of apologies, because of your continued digging into his past and it coming to bite you in the ass.  I don't know why Clark didn't tell Chloe that it was a meteor whatever transference that had Lionel inside him. Hello! Chloe has the Wall of Weird! She, of all people would understand

 

All the line about using up his quota on apologies meant really was that Clark (well not Clark) had done something that hurt and humiliated enough that an apology didn't cut it.  Chloe had dug where he didn't want her to but she never did anything to make Clark feel small and rejected or a joke.  What Lionel did was crushing and that Chloe was able to get over it in a couple weeks was a testament to her ability to forgive and forget.  Nothing she'd ever done to Clark was a personal attack on his self worth so yeah, I had zero trouble with her not just accepting that behavior as normal.

 

 Yes, he absolutely should have said a meteor made me do it or even better, just tell her the truth since Lex totally knew so it wasn't a secret anyway.  It was manufactured angst.  There was no reason not to tell her but until he did, I was completely on Chloe's side.  What Lionel did was incredibly cruel.  A low even for him.

[GHScorpiosRule]

All the line about using up his quota on apologies meant really was that Clark (well not Clark) had done something that hurt and humiliated enough that an apology didn't cut it. Chloe had dug where he didn't want her to but she never did anything to make Clark feel small and rejected or a joke. What Lionel did was crushing and that Chloe was able to get over it in a couple weeks was a testament to her ability to forgive and forget. Nothing she'd ever done to Clark was a personal attack on his self worth so yeah, I had zero trouble with her not just accepting that behavior as normal.

Yes, he absolutely should have said a meteor made me do it or even better, just tell her the truth since Lex totally knew so it wasn't a secret anyway. It was manufactured angst. There was no reason not to tell her but until he did, I was completely on Chloe's side. What Lionel did was incredibly cruel. A low even for him.

See? This is what happens when I'm focused on Clark!

I take back what I said. I can reevaluate! I just wish Chloe could have clued in it wasn't Clark when he left by calling her "Miss Sullivan." After, not right away for obvious reasons.

But I will say that "Clark" with his "not this one" regarding Lana- with that impatient and irritated look when she came to the barn to rxplain how it was serious between her and Jason was a thing of beauty. Because that's how I feel EVERY time Lana would show up. Tom telegraphed my feelings so accurately and wonderfully. How he just wanted her to GO AWAY.

But then he had to say all that gross stuff, because it was Lionel, after all.

STOOPID AUTOCORRECT !

Edited November 17, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[BkWurm1]

But I will say that "Clark" with his "not this one" regarding Lana- with that impatient and irritated look when she came to the barn to rxplain how it was serious between her and Jason was a thing of beauty. Because that's how I feel EVERY time Kana would show up. Tom telegraphed my feelings so accurately and wonderfully. How he just wanted her to GO AWAY.

But then he had to say all that gross stuff, because it was Lionel, after all.

 

Lionel's boredom over Lana's need to explain her feelings made it impossible to not see how much her character was dragging down the show.  I also think that Lionel only said the gross stuff to make her go away.  Run little girl., run. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Lionel's boredom over Lana's need to explain her feelings made it impossible to not see how much her character was dragging down the show.  I also think that Lionel only said the gross stuff to make her go away.  Run little girl., run. 

 

I think you're being kind calling it Lionel's boredom, heh. Or that could just be my bias.

 

I think we talked about how quickly Clark seemed to move on from Alicia's death as well. I mean, he's at her grave in "Pariah" and the next episode is "Recruit" and he's all smiles and excitement over his football scholarship at Met U.  Of course it would have helped us if we knew how much time had passed.

 

And I know it's mean; I know it's petty, and I definitely know it's my love for Clark (because I still loved him until the end of Season 8), but when Jonathan told him that Alicia's death wasn't his (Clark's) fault, I wanted him to turn to both Jonathan and Martha and say, that's right, it's your fault and mom's. Not true. Not even logical. But it would have been understandable, considering both, especially Martha, were doing their best guilting him and telling him to stop seeing her.

 

And I really, really, and I mean really wanted to see Lana eat a HUGE DOSE of CROW. Not for just being wrong, but because of her hypocritical ass. Going back to the first season, when she expected Clark to forgive Whitney for trussing him up as a scarecrow, to automatically believing Whitney when Whitney claimed Kyle (from "Hug") tried to kill him; taking Whitney's side, because you know, she was feeling all guilty or whatever in "Insurgence" and what Whitney had been through, and of course Clark would be the one tearing up the bathroom, even if it wasn't really Whitney. Her holier than thou attitude and I don't know what to call it, just irks me beyond end.  I wanted to see her apologize just so that Clark would tell her to fuck off. Not that he'd say fuck off, but that he would refuse her apology and tell her to leave him the hell alone.

 

And hey! Not only do we have Bo Kent, who also played Daniel, but we have Dr. Michaela Quinn this season and they don't share any scenes? It just struck me, why not? Nor did Annette or Christopher Reeve.

 

Sigh.

 

I'm giggling as Chloe makes all these cryptic remarks to Clark about his powers in "Recruit" and the way Clark looks at her, and asks her what she means.  Giggling because she's trying so hard not to tell him she knows, but we know she wants him to tell her his secret. It's so cute.

Edited November 17, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[BkWurm1]

I'm giggling as Chloe makes all these cryptic remarks to Clark about his powers in "Recruit" and the way Clark looks at her, and asks her what she means.  Giggling because she's trying so hard not to tell him she knows, but we know she wants him to tell her his secret. It's so cute.

 

They were such unsubtle hints too.  And yet, they still went over Clark's head.  He still convinced himself, "Naw, she doesn't know."

[rue721]

I just re-watched Transference. What an amazing episode!

Tom Welling knocked it out of the park! He *was* Lionel. His body language was spot on, which I thought was especially impressive (and striking to watch), because Glover and Welling look so different.

On 10/14/2015 at 11:06 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

And "Transference."  This episode showed me what a good actor Tom Welling really is; the way he was channeling Glover's Lionel, was nothing short of perfection.

Agree 100%!

On 11/17/2015 at 0:51 PM, BkWurm1 said:

Yes, he absolutely should have said a meteor made me do it or even better, just tell her the truth since Lex totally knew so it wasn't a secret anyway.  It was manufactured angst.  There was no reason not to tell her but until he did, I was completely on Chloe's side.  What Lionel did was incredibly cruel.  A low even for him.

I agree that it was weird that Clark didn't tell Chloe and Lana the truth. What happened to him had nothing to do with his secret or powers or anything anyway -- it could have happened to anybody.

Actually, the only person who I could see wanting to keep the truth relatively quiet is Lex, since telling the whole story would involve airing some dirty Luthor family laundry. But it didn't seem like Clark was really thinking about that when he failed to explain himself to his other friends, so that's sort of neither here nor there.

On 11/17/2015 at 1:17 PM, BkWurm1 said:

Lionel's boredom over Lana's need to explain her feelings made it impossible to not see how much her character was dragging down the show.  I also think that Lionel only said the gross stuff to make her go away.  Run little girl., run. 

I think Lionel was just having fun screwing with people. He liked screwing with Chloe, and he liked screwing with Lana, and he chose how to screw with each of them based on what he knew would eat at them the worst. He's just sadistic IMO and likes getting under people's skin.

Also, I thought it was interesting that how Lionel screwed with Chloe seemed really similar to how he likes to screw with Lex. Like how, at the very beginning of then episode, Lionel pretended to lay himself bare to Lex and told him how much he cared about him, as a way to lure Lex close enough that he could hurt him -- and then later, Lionel does virtually the same thing to Chloe in the newsroom. The similarity in how Lionel got under their skin made me think about how similar Chloe and Lex are in some ways in general, and wonder about what it says about Clark that those are his two closest friends (at this point).

Anyway, I thought it was genius that Clark and the mathematician lured Lionel into touching "Lionel" (or rather, Lionel's body) by telling him that he needed to kill him. And their method was in such contrast to how Lionel managed to lure other characters into getting close; Lionel told the other characters that he loved them (Lex and Martha), or cared about them (Chloe), or wanted them (Lana). Interesting that love isn't tempting to Lionel the same way it is to everyone else, though, and that the way to draw him in, apparently, is to goad him into violence.

Explains a lot about why Lionel's relationship with Lex was how it was, I guess!

[BkWurm1]

On 1/1/2017 at 1:44 PM, rue721 said:

I think Lionel was just having fun screwing with people. He liked screwing with Chloe, and he liked screwing with Lana, and he chose how to screw with each of them based on what he knew would eat at them the worst. He's just sadistic IMO and likes getting under people's skin

I do agree that Lionel was just screwing with Lana for fun and that he meant to do the same with Chloe, but Lionel has had  a certain degree of respect for Chloe. Her investigations caught his attention early on.  And I think he found her genuinely interesting as opposed to finding Lana rather dull and ordinary.  I mean, after all, it was Chloe who managed to bring him down and survive to tell about it. (With help) He respects those that can challenge him, doesn't mean that he still doesn't want to take some sort of revenge, but it wasn't so simple, the method that he chose.

He said it himself, that he was seeing her in a new perspective.  He intended the lean in and near kiss as a taunt,  and a cruel one at that, but the tease seemed to get to him.  He was affected.  Which technically was a bit disturbing, as was watching "Clark" put the moves on his mother, lol.

Still, that extra layer to their dynamic always made watching Lionel and Chloe interact fascinating.  I was sad that we never got to hear what Lionel of

Spoiler

E2

thought of Chloe.   

[rue721]

20 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

do agree that Lionel was just screwing with Lana for fun and that he meant to do the same with Chloe, but Lionel has had  a certain degree of respect for Chloe.

I think that Lionel does have a certain respect or at least interest in Chloe...but I think that he also just can't help himself. Whenever he spots a soft spot or a weakness, he's got to poke at it. He does the same thing to everyone. I think he saw that twinkle in Chloe's eye, saw her soft spot for Clark, and used it to tear her open.

I agree that it's fun to watch Lionel and Chloe interact, and it would have been cool if they had had to do it more -- IMO it's interesting because she actually is very hard for Lionel to get to (at least as long as she doesn't know it's Lionel!). Chloe is relentless, aggressive, and genuinely doesn't give a shit what anyone thinks SO much of the time. Lionel uses people's secrets and inner fears/thoughts against them, but Chloe will just throw pretty much everything out in the open and damn the consequences, so there's really not much that Lionel can do to mess with her. The only reason that Lionel could get into her head even this time was because he basically Trojan Horse-d her!

It kind of drives me nuts that Clark didn't do more to explain himself to Chloe and make her realize that he wasn't actually the one who hurt her. But I generally thought he didn't take Lionel seriously enough (or rather, didn't take Lionel's ability to wreak havoc on people seriously enough).

[GHScorpiosRule]

It was an open secret, or a really obvious thing, that Chloe was in love with Clark, so Lionel doing what he did to Chloe as "Clark" was him getting back at her, in part, because her testimony helped to land him in prison. And because for shits and giggles, because that's the kind of person Lionel is.  One of my favorite parts about this episode is that Lionel's "Clark" is just as annoyed by Lana as I am! The way he muttered "not her" or something like that, plus that constant rubbing his hand around the back of his neck, and muttering to get her to leave, not paying attention to her blathering on and on, about how Clark needs to keep quiet about her sekrith relationship with Jason. Again, all.about.her. And just like with Whitney, believing that it was Clark who told the school about their relationship and got him fired, when it was Lex.

Speaking of which. I'm not sure if it was a writers thing, a directing thing or what, but I could never be sure if Lex was still teetering between good and evil here in this season or not. At times, just the look on Lex's face, made me think--oooh, okay, he's really the villain now, playing everyone, yet, then there are the scenes with Clark, and I think...okay, not totally there yet.  And yeah, I can see that he's stopped being the cheerleader for Clark and Lana, and whatever he did to break up Jason and Lana, or to help Lana, was all for himself.

I'm not really sure why Clark broke off their friendship in the previous season. Aside from the shrine of Clark's pictures, and the loop of the accident in the pilot, everything else? I didn't have a problem with. It wasn't all about Clark, and we the viewers, totally knew that Lionel was lying to Clark. Clark is just starting to embody the BDA (Big Dumb Alien) here. 

But at the same time, I could see that Lex still wanted the friendship, because he cleared out that room as an olive branch.

And Clark is not only a BDA, but a self-deluded one. He tells Martha that he doesn't know if he feels the same about Chloe, because he's still getting over Lana. Ask me, you can still have feelings for someone else. And what he should have said, that big giant asshole, was tell Chloe, he wasn't in a good place and that he didn't want to use her as a rebound. But noooo, he goes and tells her he doesn't feel the same (LIAR!) and then proceeds to give her that kiss on the cheek, which was such an insult. Like cookie crumbs. I just wanted to reach in through my teevee and hug Chloe. Because the look on Clark's face at Chloe's "grave," his search for her, when he found her? All belie what he told her in "Devoted."

It's another weird thing, that in this season, they're supposed to be seniors in high school, but the way they act, and talk, it's more like they're already sophomores or juniors in college.

I'm flying through the seasons, due to the wonderful fast forward button, and I don't have to see or listen to any Lana or Lois scenes that don't have Clark or Chloe in them.

But still, I find myself rolling my eyes, at the show expecting me to believe that in three short months, naive, corn-fed Lana, became this sophisticated woman, who is only still 17 and talking to Martha as if Martha is her contemporary, and doing a 180 about staying in Smallville, because that's where she's supposed to be, when just a year ago, she couldn't leave fast enough, because, boo hoo, no friends, parents "abandoned" her, father "abandoned" her (when that was HER CHOICE), and everybody "judges" her.

And Chloe totally knew about Clark by the time "Jinxed" ended.

I loved and giggled at how she would let it slip in "Recruit" how she knew, and Clark would look at her like, does she know? Or how Chloe would cover up when he would ask what does she mean "unfair advantage" or the look he gives Chloe when she says "what are you doing to do? Run in half the time to find Lois?" or something like that before they sit down and have Clark pretend to be that dude who was killing his teammates with the GPS system. It was all so adorable and funny.

Oooh! I remember what I wanted to say about season three! Going there now!

Edited January 4, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule
Because proper use of the apostrophe is IMPORTANT!

[GHScorpiosRule]

There were two episodes in this season where Martha, of all people, didn't look too good. When Alicia returns and when she dies. I never thought it would be Martha who would be so judgmental, though on one hand, I can see why she wouldn't trust Alicia, but the way Annette played her, what she said, I don't know, I could very well understand why Clark would double down. And then, at the end, it's Jonathan who is consoling Clark, because I don't think Clark would have taken anything from Martha, and I can't tell if it was guilt she was feeling or anger or both.

And again, Lana is the one who everyone should be thinking about. Puir, puir Lana. The object of Alicia's ire, and would be victim. Hey, others can be given a second chance. Just not those who tried to hurt, maim, or kill Lana.

"Blank" is another favorite, except for that lame ass line from Chloe how Lana is the love of Clark's life. I'll always be upset that Kevin never returned to be part of Clark's Justice League. Jonathan Bennett was a real cutie. And I loved the little 'head nod' at the end toward Clark. Very Batmanish toward Supes at the end of Justice League, before it morphed into JLU. Not that Kevin was anything like Bats.

And Krypto Shelby!!!!

[GHScorpiosRule]

Here's my theory on Lionel being "good" for a part of Season Four and

part of Season Five, until his turn sort of, back to the evuhl side until his death

:

That whatever essence that was Clark was in his soul until it wore off.  And since we know what an unmitigated arsehole that AI Jor-El is, that once that essence that was Clark has worn off, Jor-El and whatever he did to him remains.

And I will forever be pissed at AlMiles for ruining Jason. That sudden turn that he was EVUHL from the beginning and just hiding makes NO NARRATIVE SENSE.  Even if they had lost Jensen to the upcoming new show that would premiere on the new station The CW's Supernatural, they could still have had him be good, and get killed trying to save Bo Kent and Martha. 

Why did they have to kill Bridget? I liked her and would have loved to have seen more of her. And this should probably go in the season three thread, but why couldn't Martha and Dr. Swann have had a scene together? I mean, it's Clark and Lana from the Donner movies!!!!!

[DittyDotDot]

8 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And I will forever be pissed at AlMiles for ruining Jason. That sudden turn that he was EVUHL from the beginning and just hiding makes NO NARRATIVE SENSE.  Even if they had lost Jensen to the upcoming new show that would premiere on the new station The CW's Supernatural, they could still have had him be good, and get killed trying to save Bo Kent and Martha.

I'm not sure it doesn't make sense. There are foretelling signs early in the season that Jason was up to something shady, but hadn't yet made the decision which side he was truly on until later in the season. I think there were subtle clues, even early on, and it could've went either way. Of course, they could've taken him the "good" way, but I actually think they did a good job with Jason and keeping him a mystery throughout the season. 

[rue721]

Honestly, I think that Jason was outed as a sleaze (and potential baddie) when he followed Lana to Smallville. He was a grown man, reasonably sophisticated, and working at her school. And she was an orphaned, small-town girl who was still technically a minor child. That's not exactly showing him in a good light, you know?

[BkWurm1]

Him moving to Smallville was never framed as icky, but rather supportive and thoughtful.  And if we think it's ok for a senior in high school to date a guy in college, I don't see why there was anything to be upset by when he got a job as assistant coach as her school.  They still were the same ages as when they fell in love in Paris and from what we saw of that early connection, it was not written as shady or off. 

The thing with Jason is they didn't write him as grey dude trying to decide between right and wrong. He was written as a good guy.  He even got Clark's approval. And it was spelled out that he wasn't with Lana because of her connection to the stones or the witch.  But by the end, all of that was retconned and now he'd been in on the plan from the start and that just isn't what we were shown even when it was just him and his mom.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

20 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

The thing with Jason is they didn't write him as grey dude trying to decide between right and wrong. He was written as a good guy.  He even got Clark's approval. And it was spelled out that he wasn't with Lana because of her connection to the stones or the witch.  But by the end, all of that was retconned and now he'd been in on the plan from the start and that just isn't what we were shown even when it was just him and his mom.  

THIS. And I'd like to know just what he did that was "shady" so that the retcon shouldn't be considered a retcon? If I have to say one thing that wasn't believable about Jason, was that he was willing to have a relationship with Lana that didn't include sex during their time in Paris. Just based on the little bit of intimacy we did see. Very Harlequin-esque hero behavior, if you ask me.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

Him moving to Smallville was never framed as icky, but rather supportive and thoughtful.  And if we think it's ok for a senior in high school to date a guy in college, I don't see why there was anything to be upset by when he got a job as assistant coach as her school.  They still were the same ages as when they fell in love in Paris and from what we saw of that early connection, it was not written as shady or off. 

Except he just showed up in Smallville and got a job without even talking to her first. Which, I'm sorry, that's creepy stalker material in my book. For me, it has nothing to do with the age difference--age is basically irrelevant on this show anyway--but that he was a little too clingy and overly invested for my taste.

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

The thing with Jason is they didn't write him as grey dude trying to decide between right and wrong. He was written as a good guy.  He even got Clark's approval. And it was spelled out that he wasn't with Lana because of her connection to the stones or the witch.  But by the end, all of that was retconned and now he'd been in on the plan from the start and that just isn't what we were shown even when it was just him and his mom.  

I've only watched the show the one time, and am not as invested as the rest of you to watch it again, but my impression of Jason from the beginning was there was more going on than what was on the surface. I agree he was written to appear like a good guy, but I'm not sure they were always saying that he actually was a good guy. There were plenty of times I remember wondering what side he really was on. The nightmare episode is one that immediately comes to mind. And, when he broke up with Lana telling her she wasn't ready for a relationship like this, which I took to say he had ulterior motives. I think he genuinely cared for Lana and liked Clark, but he had other things going on too, IMO.

I'm just saying, in hindsight, how it played out actually made sense to me after I worked it backwards.  I'm not suggesting this was TPTB actual plan all along or that every scene works perfectly, but I think they sowed some seeds very early on that could be argued as Jason not being exactly what he appeared to be. Add on that I didn't see the turn coming; that tips the scales and makes it a win for me. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm just saying, in hindsight, how it played out actually made sense to me after I worked it backwards.  I'm not suggesting this was TPTB actual plan all along or that every scene works perfectly, but I think they sowed some seeds very early on that could be argued as Jason not being exactly what he appeared to be. Add on that I didn't see the turn coming; that tips the scales and makes it a win for me

Usually if it's a shady character, they let you know by the end of his/her first episode, just something to clue the audience in, but instead, for several episodes, all we got was "great guy".  That he was willing to follow his girlfriend from Paris to Kansas wasn't to me a sign that he was shady, but that he was now in the "Lana is perfect and of course some dude she met in France now crossed an ocean, dropped out of school and got a job in her hometown" zone.  

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

Usually if it's a shady character, they let you know by the end of his/her first episode, just something to clue the audience in, but instead, for several episodes, all we got was "great guy".

One could argue the better storytelling approach could be to sometimes change it up a bit in order to surprise your audience from time to time. Or, to quote the 79th Rule of Acquisition: "Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies."

Personally, I think they did subtly show their hand many times--or, at the very least, gave me pause to wonder if they were bluffing--perhaps I just read things into it that weren't there? But then again, maybe I didn't? One thing I am sure of, I would've been mightily bored if I had known, with certainty, from the start whether Jason was up to no good or not. I certainly wouldn't have spent any time trying to suss out the clues while watching; nor would've I had cared enough to work it backwards to see if the pieces fit together in hindsight--which, IMO, they kinda, sorta, for the most part, did fit.

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

That he was willing to follow his girlfriend from Paris to Kansas wasn't to me a sign that he was shady, but that he was now in the "Lana is perfect and of course some dude she met in France now crossed an ocean, dropped out of school and got a job in her hometown" zone.  

Dude meets Girl in France and has a good time for a few weeks. Then Girl suddenly ditches Dude without as much as a "see ya." Dude subsequently drops his own life to pursue Girl across an ocean; gets a job where Dude will be positioned to see Girl every day, without even first asking if Girl wanted to see Dude ever again--add on top Dude thinks Girl is perfect--and that's not a sign there might be something off about Dude? 

TBH, initially I wondered why Lana didn't get a restraining order against Jason. But, then I remembered it was a TV show and those silly people on TV rarely act sensibly about these things. At the very least, it's either a sad story of an unbalanced individual or a set up for every stalker story every told; at the most, it's a sign he has ulterior motives. One thing it's isn't, IMO, is a good start to a beautiful (or healthy) relationship.

Yes, you can call me cynical Suzy. I already have the hat and matching T-shirt anyway. ;)

Edited January 6, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Dude meets Girl in France and has a good time for a few weeks.

It wasn't a few weeks. It was over three months. If it had been just a few weeks, then I probably would have given Jason the side-eye for following Lana over to Smallville. And I just can't see where I should have thought, hmmm...Jason is too good to be true. I thought it made him more realistic, even showing some of his insecurity when under the Kryptonite Kool-Aid, to be jealous of Clark. The conversations with his mother, his questioning whether his meeting Lana was set up by her, his refusal to kowtow to Mommy Dearest, all of that, told me he was a good guy. And then all of a sudden, Bridget is dead, and with a single phone call, we learn the "plan" worked perfectly and he's dumped in EVUHL Territory. 

Color my Cynical that the only reason they did it, was because they wanted Clark and Lana together by season's end and for the next season. And the only way to do that was to demonize Jason.

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

It wasn't a few weeks. It was over three months.

Well, I generally use few as more than two, less than a dozen. 

However, it has nothing to do with time. Six days, six months, sixty years, what it comes down to for me is: Lana obviously wasn't invested enough in the relationship to even tell Jason goodbye, let alone care to find a way to keep the relationship going. She, in effect, dumped him without dumping him. And his response, in effect, was to move in with without asking. The relationship was imbalanced from almost the beginning, IMO, and made it hard for me to see the grand romance in it all after I noticed it. My only conclusions were, either Jason was overly-invested in a relationship that didn't exist or he had ulterior motives for forcing himself into Lana's life. Either way, creepy in my book.

Like I said, I have no idea if Jason was meant to be a baddie from the start. I definitely don't think they made Jason evil simply to put Clark and Lana back together again (and break them up again later). That was inevitable no matter what Jason did; the show simply couldn't help themselves on that front and they proved that time and time again without Jason. I would assume they purposely left it somewhat ambiguous so they had options if they needed them. That's why I think it only mostly works. There's still holes here and there due to them not shoring up all the windows before the storm broke loose, but the house stood and I found it still livable. ::shrugs::

[GHScorpiosRule]

I don't think that Lana dumped Jason and went back to Smallville. When she first appears back in town, after having met Lois and going to the Kent Farm, or maybe it was later in the cave, Clark found out she was with someone special. Now granted, I fast forwarded all scenes that had Lana, so I don't know if she told Jason she was leaving and why, or if she told him to move to Smallville, or if she left the door open. I'll leave it to someone else whose memory is more clear. I just don't recall any teary scenes of her telling him goodbye since they were thisclose and not just casually dating; nor was it a physical relationship, as we learned later in the season.

[DittyDotDot]

27 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I don't think that Lana dumped Jason and went back to Smallville. When she first appears back in town, after having met Lois and going to the Kent Farm, or maybe it was later in the cave, Clark found out she was with someone special. Now granted, I fast forwarded all scenes that had Lana, so I don't know if she told Jason she was leaving and why, or if she told him to move to Smallville, or if she left the door open. I'll leave it to someone else whose memory is more clear. I just don't recall any teary scenes of her telling him goodbye since they were thisclose and not just casually dating; nor was it a physical relationship, as we learned later in the season.

As I recall, Lana just left Jason a note basically saying she had to go home. It was after she got the witch tatoo, so I'm sure her impulse to leave was due to that, but it was pretty clear she didn't expect to ever see Jason again. Later in the episode, Jason surprises her at The Talon with roses saying he came to be with her. 

So, like I said, she dumped without dumping him.

Edited January 6, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[BkWurm1]

19 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Dude meets Girl in France and has a good time for a few weeks. Then Girl suddenly ditches Dude without as much as a "see ya." Dude subsequently drops his own life to pursue Girl across an ocean; gets a job where Dude will be positioned to see Girl every day, without even first asking if Girl wanted to see Dude ever again--add on top Dude thinks Girl is perfect--and that's not a sign there might be something off about Dude? 

Nope, not in Lana land.  ;D  

17 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

As I recall, Lana just left Jason a note basically saying she had to go home. It was after she got the witch tatoo, so I'm sure her impulse to leave was due to that, but it was pretty clear she didn't expect to ever see Jason again. Later in the episode, Jason surprises her at The Talon with roses saying he came to be with her. 

So, like I said, she dumped without dumping him.

She left a note but I never got the impression she was dumping or breaking up with Jason, just that she had to go home.  It was only later that she even decided that she was back in Smallville for good.  I'm pretty sure that she was still thinking/talking positively about Jason even when she was back in Kansas.  I can see though if you assumed she'd dumped him and he chased her across the ocean why you'd be side eyeing him.  

Edited January 7, 2017 by BkWurm1

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, BkWurm1 said:

She left a note but I never got the impression she was dumping or breaking up with Jason, just that she had to go home.  It was only later that she even decided that she was back in Smallville for good.  I'm pretty sure that she was still thinking positively about Jason even when she was back in Kansas.  I can see though if you assumed she'd dumped him and he chased her across the ocean why you'd be side eyeing him.

No, that's not what I was saying at all. As I said, she did not literally dump him, nor did I think she had ill feelings for Jason, but she did leave France without even saying goodbye and left a vague note saying she was leaving instead. For most people, that's a sign they had been dumped.

I just felt like Lana cared for Jason, but wasn't really invested in a relationship with him. Basically, she was his girlfriend when it was convenient. Jason made it convenient when he moved back to Kansas, but if he hadn't, I don't think Lana would have went out of her way to be a part of Jason's life. 

My side-eyeing Jason was due to how Jason acted time and time again, though. The perceived unevenness of the relationship didn't help, but it was as if he was trying too hard to convince everyone he was a good guy. Made me wonder if he wasn't.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

I just felt like Lana cared for Jason, but wasn't really invested in a relationship with him. Basically, she was his girlfriend when it was convenient. Jason made it convenient when he moved back to Kansas, but if he hadn't, I don't think Lana would have went out of her way to be a part of Jason's life.

My impression was that Lana freaked out with the lost time and the tattoo that wasn't a tattoo and defaulted like every character on this show to keep it secret and trying to handle it on her own, but then she stopped the cycle and opened up to Jason and shared exactly what was going on which is when I really thought that maybe the show had finally moved Lana on from her whiny princess damsel role and given her what she actually wanted in a partner.  I didn't get the impression that she didn't want Jason in her life, but that she was afraid to impose the crazy on him.  She seemed to me more than thrilled when he listened and didn't run away.      

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I didn't get the impression that she didn't want Jason in her life, but that she was afraid to impose the crazy on him.  She seemed to me more than thrilled when he listened and didn't run away.   

Somehow I've given you the impression I think Lana didn't care for Jason and/or didn't want to have a relationship with him. Not at all. I think she cared for him quite a bit--maybe even loved him--I just don't think, if the tables were turned, she would've pursued him across an ocean.

TBH, I think Lana wanted to love Jason--or maybe she just loved the idea of Jason--more than she truly loved him. That doesn't mean doesn't have feelings for him at all or wants him out of her life, though. I think she wanted him in her life, but she wasn't going to go out of her way to make that happen.  And, as long as Jason made the effort, she didn't have to.

[SueB]

Season 4 is the ONLY season I would rewatch until my recent S7-S10 binge fest. And I rewatched for Jensen Ackles, 'cause DAHMN.  I don't remember him being that hot the first time around.  I DO remember liking him with Lana and liking Lana a character when she was with him.  Hated (and still do) the abrupt turn to evil.  Headcanon: Genevieve warped the dude via incest (couldn't be shown on broadcast TV) when he was younger. Because she was just BENT. Despite that, he tried to get away from her and almost succeeded but she pulled him back into a bad mental place when she showed up. The mental cracks in his foundation sort of fractured at the end.   

Edited January 7, 2017 by SueB

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Somehow I've given you the impression I think Lana didn't care for Jason and/or didn't want to have a relationship with him. Not at all. I think she cared for him quite a bit--maybe even loved him--I just don't think, if the tables were turned, she would've pursued him across an ocean.

TBH, I think Lana wanted to love Jason--or maybe she just loved the idea of Jason--more than she truly loved him. That doesn't mean doesn't have feelings for him at all or wants him out of her life, though. I think she wanted him in her life, but she wasn't going to go out of her way to make that happen.  And, as long as Jason made the effort, she didn't have to.

I think if Lana was in a position to chase Jason, at that stage in their relationship, I'd say I could see her making the grand gesture and thinking it was a sign of tru luv or romantic destiny but yeah, I can buy that in the end Lana was more in love with the idea of love than anything.  In Paris she could be all in on the relationship because she was reinventing herself and the new person she decided to be would be all in.  But back in Smallville, she kind of revereted back to the secrets and lies police and always second guessing and being dissatisfied and yeah, she absolutely romantisized her relationship with Clark so it makes sense to me that she also did it with any other romantic relationship she was in.  

I'm not entirely sure that Lana really understood how to be herself with anyone.  I agree that she did often try to put on a persona to please people around her but she took it to another level.  She didn't just put on a mask, she became the person the other person really wants --for a while -- and then she gets tired of them or disillusioned or discovers they faked her pregnancy and her feelings turn.  

When she was in Paris, she was IMO the confident, fun loving girlfriend that Jason knew and that person, I think would have moved her whole life for Jason if she could have, but once she got back to Smallville, Paris Lana started to fall away.  And that one, yeah, that one probably was more about hanging on to the memory of feelings than anything truly lasting or genuine.  

Edited January 7, 2017 by BkWurm1

[BkWurm1]

59 minutes ago, SueB said:

Season 4 is the ONLY season I would rewatch until my recent S7-S10 binge fest. And I rewatched for Jensen Ackles, 'cause DAHMN.  I don't remember him being that hot the first time around.  I DO remember liking him with Lana and liking Lana a character when she was with him.  Hated (and still do) the abrupt turn to evil.  Headcanon: Genevieve warped the dude via incest (couldn't be shown on broadcast TV) when he was younger. Because she was just BENT. Despite that, he tried to get away from her and almost succeeded but she pulled him back into a bad mental place when she showed up. The mental cracks in his foundation sort of fractured at the end.   

Yikes.  Lol.  I know it's spec but may I just say three cheers for broadcast TV restrictions?  I did not want to watch that.  I can see what inspired you, but nope, don't want to see that, lol.  Poor Dr. Quin.  

Edited January 7, 2017 by BkWurm1

[DittyDotDot]

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I'm not entirely sure that Lana really understood how to be herself with anyone.  I agree that she did often try to put on a persona to please people around her but she took it to another level.  She didn't just put on a mask, she became the person the other person really wants --for a while -- and then she gets tired of them or disillusioned or discovers they faked her pregnancy and her feelings turn.  

I think Lana tended to get involved with men who were in love with her and she felt like she owed it to them to love them back, but ultimately, she just didn't. I think she wanted to love them, though, and thought if she could become someone else, it would happen. Whitney, Jason, Lex and even Clark all seemed to follow that pattern. 

It might go all the way back to her relationship with Nell? I think Lana couldn't allow herself to truly love Nell in fear of betraying her own mother's love, so she instead became the person she thought Nell wanted her to be it in an attempt to make Nell feel loved. I think her intentions were pure, but it ingrained in her this idea if someone loves you, you need to love them back and if you don't, then become someone else. 

[rue721]

4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think she wanted to love them, though, and thought if she could become someone else, it would happen. Whitney, Jason, Lex and even Clark all seemed to follow that pattern. 

I agree, but with the small quibble that I don't think that she became someone else for each of her boyfriends (and maybe for each person she was around) because she thought that would make her love THEM. I think she did that to make them love HER.

I think that Lana would be so focused on being "the right girl" for each person (and on pleasing them), that once someone actually fell for her, and once she actually started feeling secure in a relationship -- once she started to really trust that they cared about her -- she would begin freaking out. IMO she seemed to start feeling boxed-in, and resentful that the other person had fallen for and cared about "the right girl"-- not about HER. I think that was her relationship to a T with

Spoiler

Clark in S7. IMO that came to a head in the episode when she got his powers. She felt strong enough to be who she wanted to be, and do what she wanted to do -- so she began acting COMPLETELY differently from how he (or Chloe) expected her to act or even saw her as a person.

Of course, she "played a role" to a very strong and conscious degree with Lex, too, in S6. The thing is, even if she had never found out about the fake!baby plot, I think their relationship would have gone virtually the same way, because IMO she was done with him as soon as the wedding day arrived. The wedding was a symbol of security, commitment, intimacy...and that stuff always seemed to freak Lana out, IMO because when people promise it to her, she thinks they're not really promising it to HER, they're promising it to "the right girl" (who she knows she can't always be). IMO that's why she had been pulling back from Lex and didn't want to go through with the wedding (despite their relationship going fairly well at that point). I think she would have done the same with virtually anyone, and proved that when she ended up running off on each one of her boyfriends at virtually the same point in each of those relationships (ie, when things were turned toward the "lifetime comitment" stage).

Ironically, I think that Lex might actually have understood that about her, seeing as he was so anxious to get a commitment FROM her (rather than just worrying about his commitment TO her, like her other boyfriends did) and seeing as he tried so hard to appeal to HER interests, like the spaceship or even the cafe, when trying to get close to her (rather than focusing on whether and how he was going to bring her into HIS life, like Clark did).

IMO, once Lana felt secure that she'd "gotten" the guy, she would want to stop living to please and "reveal" herself (as in, what she actually thought/felt/needed/wanted/etc) because she wanted them to know and care about *her,* but would also be afraid that if she stopped performing as "the right girl" for them, they would reject her. Once she had worked up enough alienation, resentment, and pessimism over how distant she really felt from her boyfriend, and how little they knew or cared about *her* (rather than about the role she performed in their life or for them), she would do the "I'm going to dump you before you can dump me" thing and more-or-less run off. Insecurity at its finest.

I actually like Lana for it. I find that very human. I think anyone who doesn't have a strong support system and is used to going it alone is at least at risk of having trust issues like that.

IMO the difference between someone like Lana, who fakes or seduces her way into relationships and then runs off from them, and someone like Lex, who fakes or seduces his way into relationships and then tries to force them to continue, is that Lana knows she's capable of being independent, whereas Lex is codependent and only knows how to exist in relation to someone else (or even as a foil to someone else). IMO that makes sense, seeing as Lana is an orphan, and Lex has ever-domineering Lionel.

Edited January 7, 2017 by rue721

[BkWurm1]

Quote

I agree, but with the small quibble that I don't think that she became someone else for each of her boyfriends (and maybe for each person she was around) because she thought that would make her love THEM. I think she did that to make them love HER

Agreed.

 

Quote

Once she had worked up enough alienation, resentment, and pessimism over how distant she really felt from her boyfriend, and how little they knew or cared about *her* (rather than about the role she performed in their life or for them), she would do the "I'm going to dump you before you can dump me" thing and more-or-less run off. Insecurity at its finest.

I also agree about this, but...

Quote

I think that Lana would be so focused on being "the right girl" for each person (and on pleasing them), that once someone actually fell for her, and once she actually started feeling secure in a relationship -- once she started to really trust that they cared about her -- she would begin freaking out. IMO she seemed to start feeling boxed-in, and resentful that the other person had fallen for and cared about "the right girl"-- not about HER. I think that was her relationship to a T with

But not so much this.

I don't think she was that aware of what she was doing in tailoring herself to each guy, at least not at first (not until season seven and of course when she was acting for Lex).  

After she gets the guy, I agree that she starts behaving more like she really is and seeing the guy without her initial blinders and yeah, I think she starts feeling resentful of them not being all that she wants and NEEDS but of course they don't since they don't know the real her, but I don't think she's conscious enough about the mask she puts on to be annoyed that they fell for it over the real her.  

I also don't think it's so much the commitment she is running from as committing to a relationship that isn't perfect.  So she starts looking for something better and again becomes the "perfect" girl for someone at first so the first part of the relationship feels "perfect" so of course she has to dump the guy she's with so she can go after "perfect".  Again, it's not completely conscious, but the results are the same.  

With Clark, it frequently wasn't perfect but she kept remaking herself and also the break ups let her see him with the rose colored glasses again to make her think that things are going to be different now.  I think she kept going back to Clark even though it never really fits because of how often he saved her.  Lana likes to think of herself as independent but she really likes being saved.  

Whitney was forgiven for being an awful human being who Scarecrowed Clark after he found her in the tree house (her first kidnapping, how sweet).   Lex saved the Talon and was there to clean up her mess after killing Jason's mother (a sure fire way to kill a relationship even had he not gone nuts) and then her sanity by producing proof of the aliens and then a place to live after Dark Thursday and of course just for doing back up boyfriend duties when Clark dared to break up with her first (totally unfair since she would have broken up with him had his dad not died. Poor Lana, the second guy to pull the my dad is dying/dead card).  Jason was part of her Parisian fantasy and then was her hero since when her life came unhinged (hello, dead witch possession) he crossed the ocean and restarted his life to be with her.  

But when she no longer needs saving, then she also becomes more easily dissatisfied and in turn wants saving from her dissatisfaction.  It's a vicious circle.   

[SueB]

21 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Yikes.  Lol.  I know it's spec but may I just say three cheers for broadcast TV restrictions?  I did not want to watch that.  I can see what inspired you, but nope, don't want to see that, lol.  Poor Dr. Quin.  

 

 

I agree, poor Dr. Quinn.  I didn't want to see it either... but Lionel was very pointed in his comments and Jason went pretty batshit.  So, he got twisted SOMEHOW....

Edited January 8, 2017 by SueB

[rue721]

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

After she gets the guy, I agree that she starts behaving more like she really is and seeing the guy without her initial blinders and yeah, I think she starts feeling resentful of them not being all that she wants and NEEDS but of course they don't since they don't know the real her, but I don't think she's conscious enough about the mask she puts on to be annoyed that they fell for it over the real her.

I agree that she's initially not that self-aware about how she keeps falling into these relationships or why people keep falling for her, but I think that she grows self-aware over the course of the show.

Spoiler

IMO when her relationship with Lex went down in flames, it forced her to become more self-aware. She had to figure out how she ended up in that terrible marriage, because she had to figure out how to get herself out of it, and had to make sure a disaster like that didn't happen again! IMO the tragedy was that becoming self-aware only exacerbated the problem, because it made her hold back and compartmentalize and perform even more. Knowing about the problem only made it worse! IMO that's why her S7 relationship with Clark was such a disaster.

Maybe you're right that she's not resentful that they fell for the mask. But IMO she *acts* resentful. Although maybe I'm thinking of later in the series --

Spoiler

namely, of her S7 relationship with Clark.

She definitely seemed resentful and very conscious of the gap between who he thought she was and who she thought she was...but it's true that she didn't seem as conscious OR resentful during her relationship with Whitney or Jason.

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I also don't think it's so much the commitment she is running from as committing to a relationship that isn't perfect.  So she starts looking for something better and again becomes the "perfect" girl for someone at first so the first part of the relationship feels "perfect" so of course she has to dump the guy she's with so she can go after "perfect".  Again, it's not completely conscious, but the results are the same.

That's really insightful. I think you're probably right.

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

But when she no longer needs saving, then she also becomes more easily dissatisfied and in turn wants saving from her dissatisfaction.  It's a vicious circle.

To be fair, I think that pretty much anybody would be in danger of falling in love with their rescuer. Lex certainly did! As soon as Clark ripped open the roof of his Porsche, he was doomed ;)

I don't think that Lana has any idea what it is she wants or needs saving from. Honestly, I wish that the show had given us more insight into the character, so that we'd know (or at least have a more educated guess)...

I do think you're right that it's somewhat just her own dissatisfaction. But the men she chooses are generally the ones who offer her the MOST possible security. "Older" football star, Man of Steel, billionaire...I mean, those are some choices! And she even picked up another security blanket (Jason) when she was supposedly ~footloose and fancy free~ (and finding herself) in Paris. So I've got to think that there's some major anxiety and insecurity going on there, too! (lol)

[DittyDotDot]

21 hours ago, rue721 said:

I agree, but with the small quibble that I don't think that she became someone else for each of her boyfriends (and maybe for each person she was around) because she thought that would make her love THEM. I think she did that to make them love HER.

Oh, I don't know, I thought they already did love her and she knew it before they even started having a relationship. Whitney, Jason, Lex and Clark all pursued her and she didn't start warping herself into this new person until after the pursuit was over and there was an "official" relationship.

More than anything, I think Lana wanted to love and, for whatever reason, never fully could. I always felt like Lana would get into these relationships mostly because she felt she owed it to them because they fell in love with her. I don't mean to say she was doing them a favor, but I think she believed the force of their feelings would spread to her and she would finally feel it too. I don't think she changed herself thinking it would make them love her--they already did--but I think she changed herself in an attempt to be someone who could truly love them.

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 hours ago, rue721 said:

I don't think that Lana has any idea what it is she wants or needs saving from. Honestly, I wish that the show had given us more insight into the character, so that we'd know (or at least have a more educated guess)...

The show did tell us why. Repeatedly. Her parents were pancaked by the meteor shower and...DIED!!!! Didn't you know? And Nell, the nerve of her, actually adopted her and loved her and raised her, yet she was abandoned by "everyone" who loved her. Despite Whitney the ass, "making her feel safe" and always being there for her, except he wasn't, and blah, blah, blah.

 

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

More than anything, I think Lana wanted to love and, for whatever reason, never fully could. I always felt like Lana would get into these relationships mostly because she felt she owed it to them because they fell in love with her. I don't mean to say she was doing them a favor, but I think she believed the force of their feelings would spread to her and she would finally feel it too. I don't think she changed herself thinking it would make them love her--they already did--but I think she changed herself in an attempt to be someone who could truly love them.

I can't agree with this. Some time, early in the first season, when Whitney wasn't "there for her" as a boyfriend should be, like going out on dates to Metropolis, and preferring to hang out with his pals to watch that fight, or whatever, she made a "friend" date with Clark, or rather, accepted his "friends only" date, when she knew he had feelings for her; her treating him like a place holder boyfriend, giving him an ultimatum not to "disappoint her" for her fifteenth birthday party; when Whitney was dealing with his father's health, how she and Clark nearly came to a kiss, with her whispering how he's always there when she needs him, blah, blah, blah. The only person I think she felt she "owed" was Whitney, because until his dad fell ill, she was thinking of breaking up with him to be with Clark. 

As for Clark? It was the whole sekriths and lies that kept them from being together for so long. She continued to chase him in early season three until he just said no, he couldn't hurt her anymore.  Yet, every time a chance opened up where his feelings came into question, there she was, demanding answers, even though his feelings for he weren't why they broke up.  And I've already stated my thoughts about Jason and Lex. For me, it was her always wanting the grass that was greener on the other side.

[BkWurm1]

15 hours ago, rue721 said:

I agree that she's initially not that self-aware about how she keeps falling into these relationships or why people keep falling for her, but I think that she grows self-aware over the course of the show.

  Hide contents

IMO when her relationship with Lex went down in flames, it forced her to become more self-aware. She had to figure out how she ended up in that terrible marriage, because she had to figure out how to get herself out of it, and had to make sure a disaster like that didn't happen again! IMO the tragedy was that becoming self-aware only exacerbated the problem, because it made her hold back and compartmentalize and perform even more. Knowing about the problem only made it worse! IMO that's why her S7 relationship with Clark was such a disaster.

Maybe you're right that she's not resentful that they fell for the mask. But IMO she *acts* resentful. Although maybe I'm thinking of later in the series --

  Hide contents

namely, of her S7 relationship with Clark.

She definitely seemed resentful and very conscious of the gap between who he thought she was and who she thought she was...but it's true that she didn't seem as conscious OR resentful during her relationship with Whitney or Jason.

That's really insightful. I think you're probably right.

To be fair, I think that pretty much anybody would be in danger of falling in love with their rescuer. Lex certainly did! As soon as Clark ripped open the roof of his Porsche, he was doomed ;)

I don't think that Lana has any idea what it is she wants or needs saving from. Honestly, I wish that the show had given us more insight into the character, so that we'd know (or at least have a more educated guess)...

I do think you're right that it's somewhat just her own dissatisfaction. But the men she chooses are generally the ones who offer her the MOST possible security. "Older" football star, Man of Steel, billionaire...I mean, those are some choices! And she even picked up another security blanket (Jason) when she was supposedly ~footloose and fancy free~ (and finding herself) in Paris. So I've got to think that there's some major anxiety and insecurity going on there, too! (lol)

I agree, she was pretty self aware and deliberate in season seven. 

I think Lana gravitating toward the people that can offer her the most possible security is also part of her wanting to be saved...even if she doesn't really know from what.  

And yes, clearly for Lex it was love at first sight.  Poor Lex.  

8 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh, I don't know, I thought they already did love her and she knew it before they even started having a relationship. Whitney, Jason, Lex and Clark all pursued her and she didn't start warping herself into this new person until after the pursuit was over and there was an "official" relationship.

More than anything, I think Lana wanted to love and, for whatever reason, never fully could. I always felt like Lana would get into these relationships mostly because she felt she owed it to them because they fell in love with her. I don't mean to say she was doing them a favor, but I think she believed the force of their feelings would spread to her and she would finally feel it too. I don't think she changed herself thinking it would make them love her--they already did--but I think she changed herself in an attempt to be someone who could truly love them.

I think that Lana suffered from guys seeing her as perfect and projecting who they expected her to be and then she just kind of went with it at least for a while.  

She probably was really flattered and impressed when an older student like Whitney paid attention to her, so for a while she became the Homecoming Queen and Cheerleader to his Football Star.  I also wonder if what triggers her resentment and dissatisfaction is someone else seeing her in a different way which would trigger her then seeing herself in that different way.  

Maybe Lana's problem is that she takes on the traits of the guys around her.  Like when she became a crusader for a cause when she found out about her bio dad.  Or maybe it doesn't even take a guy.  She hung out briefly with Chloe and suddenly is all passionate about the student's right to publish and her out of nowhere passion got her the gig and it was only when she was challenged on basically stealing it from Chloe that she backed off.

And I mean, where the hell did her sudden passion for art come from?  Does she have so little sense of self that some ad in a passing magazine asking is she can draw Tommy the Turtle make her decide to abandon her life and move to Paris to study art?  

Really the only thing that Lana seemed to like on her own was horses.  

I'm still not convinced that Lana changed herself to be someone who could truly love them, but I agree that she did change herself and that for awhile she too believed it was real and that while she did, then yeah, she would be in love with them, only to eventually stop playing the part and then be unhappy again.

 I do think Lana had a problem with loving people.  She IMO had a habit of dropping people from her life just a little to easily.  She did it to Nell.  She did it to Chloe. She did it how many times to Clark.  She just vanished on Jason with nothing but a note.  Even though she clearly was suffering in leaving Clark the final time, it was still her choice to totally cut him out of her life.  Everyone else as well.  What lets her do that?  What makes her need to reinvent herself constantly? What makes her so fickle with everything in her life?

[DittyDotDot]

13 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Maybe Lana's problem is that she takes on the traits of the guys around her.  Like when she became a crusader for a cause when she found out about her bio dad.  Or maybe it doesn't even take a guy.  She hung out briefly with Chloe and suddenly is all passionate about the student's right to publish and her out of nowhere passion got her the gig and it was only when she was challenged on basically stealing it from Chloe that she backed off.

I think that's part of the "trying to love someone" I was talking about. I don't think it's just in her relationships with men, but all of her relationships. I think she became passionate about their passions as a replacement for her lack of passion for them. The art thing was so weird to me, it seemed to come out of nowhere, but maybe it was always there hidden behind all the things she was trying to be for other people? Maybe it was the one time Lana tried to be herself? I really don't know though since after her stint in Paris, we never heard of her loving art again.

13 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I do think Lana had a problem with loving people.  She IMO had a habit of dropping people from her life just a little to easily.  She did it to Nell.  She did it to Chloe. She did it how many times to Clark.  She just vanished on Jason with nothing but a note.  Even though she clearly was suffering in leaving Clark the final time, it was still her choice to totally cut him out of her life.  Everyone else as well.  What lets her do that?  What makes her need to reinvent herself constantly? What makes her so fickle with everything in her life?

Like I said above, I think it goes back to losing her parents and closing herself off from feeling that way again. Then it just became learned behavior. Some guy falls in love with her, she lets them chase her a bit before she engages, but then doesn't feel it and starts wrapping herself in their wants until she can't do it anymore; eventually grows to resent them on some level and drops them for the next guy whose come around declaring their love for her.

I actually think it could've been interesting if Lana had a relationship with someone she was the pursuer and had to initially engage someone else who didn't already have feelings for her. There was that short period after Jason unexpectedly broke up with her where she did go out of her way to try and get him back, but I was never sure if it was because she truly wanted him back or if she was just so confused that he had suddenly broken it off after chasing her across an ocean and all. 

Edited January 9, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[BkWurm1]

5 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I actually think it could've been interesting if Lana had a relationship with someone she was the pursuer and had to initially engage someone else who didn't already have feelings for her.

Taking to the season eight thread.  

[rue721]

Taking my responses re Lana to the All Episodes thread, because I don't feel like dealing with spoiler boxes!

[catrox14]

Just finished my rewatch of s4. I really do like Lois. Always have. I had totally forgotten that Jason was taken out by a meteorite LOL. Poor crazy Jason Teague.  Funny that Jensen as played two crazy Jasons in the DC universe. I think he did well with both.

 

Michael Rosenbaum is still my favorite Lex Luthor. I loved his struggle to not be what he thinks he was meant to be, that is, nature vs  nurture. Rosenbaum was great showing that inner turmoil.

And again, Clark has more chemistry with a meteor rock than he ever did with Lana.

I really think Commencement was a good season finale. Loved hearing the tones of the Superman theme at the end.

Farewell, s4. On to s5!

Edited July 1, 2017 by catrox14

[BkWurm1]

I admit that I liked Lois in her first two episodes and then it very quickly went down hill from there.  So for me, the question becomes, which season did I least dislike her?  

Taking my cross season musings to the Lois thread.  :D

[bettername2come]

Bought season four a few weeks back and am finally watching while unable to Netflix. I really do like Lois in these first two eps. I can definitely see how she was cast and I think we can see her and Clark being kind of intrigued with each other as they drive each other crazy. I never hated Lois. Even though ED never was a favorite Lois of mine, my complaints were usually more writing based than acting based.

Jason and Lana were cute in the beginning. I'm deeply ashamed of the fact that I didn't recognize Jensen Ackles from Dark Angel when it originally aired. I was a bad fangirl. Then again, Alec and Dean were both way better than Jason, so I'm not shocked. He and Kristin had good chemistry, then again, the man has chemistry with inanimate objects. I will say, one thing I really liked about this season is that they stopped dressing Lana in pink all the time. The black and burgundy looked better on her, were more to my personal style and since I know Kristin Kreuk hated pink, I was happy for her.

[BkWurm1]

My dislike for Lois got bigger and bigger as the series went on.  I remember though how pleased I was after the first two episode to hear she was going to be staying in Smallville.  But they totally changed how they wrote her or at least took away any benefit of the doubt that she earned the attitude she displayed later.  She and Chloe were so cute together at times too.