Season Ten: Goren and Eames Say Hello and Goodbye...Again!

[WendyCR72]

I don't recall the dad or daughter elsewhere in the franchise but wouldn't be surprised. But the actor playing the victim's coworker/competitor, Aston Skinner, was in "Depths" in S7 of CI.

 

And I know I have seen the actor playing Jack Driscoll before but can't remember where.

[cooksdelight]

Well... since I'm up!! LOL... "Loyalty" and the death of Captain Ross.

In case anyone wonders why I am awake at 3 am... a small snake somehow found its way into my bedroom and my cat Sourpuss Seymour (you can find him on Facebook, complete with pictures of his kill) came to my rescue. While my dog slept....

[WendyCR72]

Poor Scooby sounds like a marshmallow. LOL!

 

As for "Loyalty", I think Ross biting it is the only highlight. Thankfully, it wasn't the end, after all.

 

And today is CI-Palooza again, on ION, MyNetwork, and WE.Probably stick with WE, though, since it's airing S10.

[cooksdelight]

Oh, I like Goren running that guy around in the airplane hanger

[WendyCR72]

Oh, I like Goren running that guy around in the airplane hanger

 

Oh, forgot that part! Yeah, that, too. Overall, though, it was just so damned depressing. I keep forgetting this is S9, too. I only equate the solo Nichols episodes with that season, but yeah... So I guess "Loyalty" fit the rest of that season, being so dark.

[WendyCR72]

Steven Weber's a fairly well known TV actor, so I'm always kind of surprised that he was willing to be on L&O: CI just to be killed a few minutes in. But hey, he got a vanity credit (the "and Steven Weber" at the end of the guest credits), so I guess it was all good.

[Eolivet]

"Cadaver" is really, really good -- like earlier seasons twisty. The multiple suspects, each with something to hide (a secret affair! a secret lovechild!) Earlier seasons always seemed to have the reason for murder being something in childhood, and I liked how that ep played on this idea. Poor Maya Zhuang, who only wanted to be an artist, and ended up covering up her mother's murder. I also liked that her mistakes were because she might've wanted to get caught.

 

But boy, those scenes with Goren and his shrink are unbearable. Half the time, she seems like she wants to be his mother, and the other half, it's like she's hitting on him. "Why is it so important for me to know that you can't have romantic feelings for someone you respect? Anyone in particular? Like...someone in this room?" Meh.

[cooksdelight]

Julia Ormond is like a chameleon. She played the crazy whacked-out mother who was French Canadian (with yet another accent!) in Mad Men. I LOVED her in that role, she was perfect for it. On this show, she comes across as creepy.

[WendyCR72]

Julia Ormond is like a chameleon. She played the crazy whacked-out mother who was French Canadian (with yet another accent!) in Mad Men. I LOVED her in that role, she was perfect for it. On this show, she comes across as creepy.

 

Well, she was playing a shrink on CI. Hee. But I didn't find her creepy as much as basically unneeded. (Yeah, Bobby had issues, but with all the loss the character had, who wouldn't? But the show tried to paint him as nuts when he seemed to function okay, all things considered!)

[WendyCR72]

But boy, those scenes with Goren and his shrink are unbearable. Half the time, she seems like she wants to be his mother, and the other half, it's like she's hitting on him. "Why is it so important for me to know that you can't have romantic feelings for someone you respect? Anyone in particular? Like...someone in this room?" Meh.

 

I hear you, @Eolivet. I don't know what Warren Leight was going for when he wrote those. (At least he wasn't the EP by then.) But Goren did get to explicitly ask her if she was trying to get him to fall for her, so maybe, as gross as it was, that was intentional - at least subconsciously?

 

If we had to have those (and based on the screener of "The Consoler" I have sans any therapy, I think the season would have been fine without it!), I would have rather had Emil Skoda or Liz Olivet playing the mind games.

[WendyCR72]

So I couldn't sleep and ended up re-watching "The Last Street In Manhattan" at 3 this morning. The actor playing Alex's dad, Raymond J. Barry, looked so familiar to me, so I looked him up. Wow. I never realized he was in so much. So I guess I won't figure it out unless I really look. But I'm guessing it was from the Mothership, as he was listed on that and SVU, too. (But my latter SVU watching is very hit and miss, so I doubt it was that.) He was also in "The Closer" the same year as CI, too (2011), so that's a maybe, too!

 

I wish there was more time to focus on his relationship with Alex. The underlying tension Alex had with him was intriguing.

 

I think USA was time compressing, though, as it cut Bobby's line thanking Mr. Eames for seeing them. And the censors cut "This guy breathes douchebag!" line in the observation room when Hannah was looking at Driscoll. I guess even in the dead of night, douchebag is a no no!

[cooksdelight]

He played Grant Show's long-lost absentee father in Melrose Place, too. Just one episode, but he made a lasting impression. The guy's 75 and still acting.

[WendyCR72]

He played Grant Show's long-lost absentee father in Melrose Place, too. Just one episode, but he made a lasting impression. The guy's 75 and still acting.

 

Hey, why not? Good for him! In the short bit he did get as Johnny Eames, I think he managed to do a great job and gave him a strong personality right out of the gate.

[WendyCR72]

Was going through channels on TV and WE is showing S10 now, "Rispetto". And it kept the scene that USA always takes out before G/E find Nyle Brite dead at his place, the scene where he asks the young hooker he is with if her dad knows she is a whore.

 

Funny how WE kept it in but USA never shows it.

[cooksdelight]

I think I just caught a major faux pas in "The Last Street in Manhattan". Goren and Eames are visiting her dad and he mentions having no grandchildren.. But Eames was surrogate mother for her sister. And I remember seeing Eames playing with nieces and nephews at Thanksgiving. This episode makes it as though Eames is an only child.

[WendyCR72]

I think I just caught a major faux pas in "The Last Street in Manhattan". Goren and Eames are visiting her dad and he mentions having no grandchildren.. But Eames was surrogate mother for her sister. And I remember seeing Eames playing with nieces and nephews at Thanksgiving. This episode makes it as though Eames is an only child.

 

Ah, right. This has been debated before, but I think (or hand wave) that Johnny Eames meant no grandchildren specifically from Alex. Which makes sense. She was the "career kid". And with the number of mentions of her brothers (kid and older) and sister, not to mention the nephew, I'd hope the staff remembered and Mr. Eames just poorly expressed the sentiment I posted above!

 

I was always more intrigued by her exasperated/sarcastic undercurrent towards her father, considering she had never gave any indication with having issues with her dad before. Also got the feeling Mr. Eames had met Bobby more than once since Mr. Eames' "just like you, Bobby!" when Bobby mentioned someone being smarter than they looked.

 

Raymond J. Barry did a great job as ex-cop, Johnny Eames. I wish there were a few more S10 episodes to see more with him and Alex.

 

Finally, considering Alex mentioned caring for her father, I got the impression Alex's mom was dead for some time.

[cooksdelight]

Ah, OK, gotcha! I didn't think that he might be talking specifically about her.

[WendyCR72]

One thing that never struck me until "The Last Street In Manhattan" was shown on USA last night/early this morning: When David Kellen (sp) was shot, it was clearly nighttime and in a fairly populated area. Yet when Bobby and Alex see the body for the first time. It is daylight and seemingly, perhaps, mid morning from the looks of things to me.

 

So folks let a dead body lay there all night? Maybe he became a tourist attraction!

[Totale]

I was away for a while and hadn't seen S10 since the first airing, but they were all on while I was gone, and so I DVRed them all and binged them out over the last couple of days.  I remember squeeing when Patti Smith came on in "Icarus", so much that unlike this time I didn't notice then how useless her scene was.  But I remembered reading once that she basically got on because she was a huge CI fan and it's cool that they gave her the shot because goddamn, it's Patti Smith.  I didn't actually mind the therapy scenes so much, maybe because I liked looking at Julia Ormond. Same reason Falacci didn't bother me in S7, I guess.  The one thing that bugged me in "Icarus" was that they mentioned in passing that the producer had had a half-hour conversation with his lawyers the week before about the force majeure clause.  Remind me not to hire a lawyer who will discuss our conversations with the police.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Totale

[WendyCR72]

I was away for a while and hadn't seen S10 since the first airing, but they were all on while I was gone, and so I DVRed them all and binged them out over the last couple of days.  I remember squeeing when Patti Smith came on in "Icarus", so much that unlike this time I didn't notice then how useless her scene was.  But I remembered reading once that she basically got on because she was a huge CI fan and it's cool that they gave her the shot because goddamn, it's Patti Smith.  I didn't actually mind the therapy scenes so much, maybe because I liked looking at Julia Ormond. Same reason Falacci didn't bother me in S7, I guess.  The one thing that bugged me in "Icarus" was that they mentioned in passing that the producer had had a half-hour conversation with his lawyers the week before about the force majeure clause.  Remind me not to hire a lawyer who will discuss our conversations with the police.

 

Glad you got to see S10, Totale! Just be aware that USA (and other stations) sometimes edit for commercials (dumb, I know). Still the stories usually are kept intact, but lines and scenes here and there do get snipped! So if you did like S10, consider picking up the DVD.

 

In any case, Roger the Dramaturg was such a pipsqueak. I liked seeing some of Goren's old energy come back to rattle him. And, yes, it was cool to have the Patti Smith cameo. No idea she was a CI fan. She had good taste!

[Totale]

 And, yes, it was cool to have the Patti Smith cameo. No idea she was a CI fan. She had good taste!

 

I remember reading this at the time and it was easy to find again

 

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/20/aint-it-strange-patti-smith-on-her-law-order-experience/?_r=0

 

Since he gave her some acting tips maybe she helped with his spoken word album

 

http://www.avclub.com/article/heres-first-track-vincent-donofrios-new-spoken-wor-212509

[WendyCR72]

I remember reading this at the time and it was easy to find again

 

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/20/aint-it-strange-patti-smith-on-her-law-order-experience/?_r=0

 

Since he gave her some acting tips maybe she helped with his spoken word album

 

http://www.avclub.com/article/heres-first-track-vincent-donofrios-new-spoken-wor-212509

 

Thank you for the links! VDO's spoken-word stuff is a bit out there for me, but he has always thrived on quirkiness, so it makes sense. Can't wait to see him on Emerald City in the fall on NBC, too.

 

As for Smith, I did like they made her a literature professor since it seemed natural considering the play's theme.

[WendyCR72]

Couple of other S10 observations: It always struck me funny how Tovah Feldshuh was in "To The Boy..." for half a minute yet still managed a vanity credit. (Names that follow "and" and "with" are usually deemed as such.) I assume she was playing her Mothership character, Danielle Melnick, but it was never specified. I wonder if she was supposed to have a bigger role, but it got cut?

 

Another: Ironically, I think the actor playing twins in the episode, Thad Luckinbill, has a real-life twin brother. However, I think he was the only Luckinbill listed. So I wonder if it was just him like The Parent Trap or if the brother was uncredited.

 

It's funny that when I got the screener edition of "The Consoler" that the show description did allude to Joseph Hannah as a friend of Goren's who was now captain of MCS on the DVD case, yet...I don't think that was ever touched upon in the series. I guess being only 8 episodes long, some things got short shrift.

[WendyCR72]

I really wish Eames' ending line in "The Consoler" to Captain Hannah - after Johnny is led away with his lawyer and Bobby is standing against the wall ("He's baaack.") was left in the final revised cut.

[WendyCR72]

Surprised WE left in the whole Nyle Brite/hooker exchange this time, the scene where he asks her if her father knew she was a whore. I've heard that (awful) word on other shows, so I'm guessing it has been cut before because after their conversation, it shows the hooker snorting coke.

[WendyCR72]

Patti Smith as a scholarly professor friend of Bobby's is really sort of ironic since Ms. Smith was a true chick rocker! (Not that they can't be smart, but you know...)

If I recall, someone here said she was a big fan of the show and was asked to appear, which is neat.

[Lizzing]

On 6/27/2016 at 2:42 PM, WendyCR72 said:

Surprised WE left in the whole Nyle Brite/hooker exchange this time, the scene where he asks her if her father knew she was a whore. I've heard that (awful) word on other shows, so I'm guessing it has been cut before because after their conversation, it shows the hooker snorting coke.

I never understand why things are cut out for reruns (except for time).  I caught The Last Street in Manhattan overnight, and the audio on the word "crap" was dropped out.  Heck, in reruns of 30 Rock, the word "poo" got dropped out, and it originally aired in the earliest slot on prime time (8/7 e/c) possible.  I'm pretty sure "poo" & "crap" are okay for people watching at 2 a.m.  Plus, if you're watching a show where a guy takes two bullets to the chest at the top of the hour, I think you can handle a "crap" later on.

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, Lizzing said:

I never understand why things are cut out for reruns (except for time).  I caught The Last Street in Manhattan overnight, and the audio on the word "crap" was dropped out.  Heck, in reruns of 30 Rock, the word "poo" got dropped out, and it originally aired in the earliest slot on prime time (8/7 e/c) possible.  I'm pretty sure "poo" & "crap" are okay for people watching at 2 a.m.  Plus, if you're watching a show where a guy takes two bullets to the chest at the top of the hour, I think you can handle a "crap" later on.

Also cut in "Last Street..." is "Douchebag" uttered by Captain Hannah after G/E question Driscoll and they go back into the observation room where Eames tells Hannah that Driscoll never served a day in jail. Easy to cut as we see his back only staring at Driscoll, but stupid all the same.

Especially since it aired in the dead of night!

[WendyCR72]

Speaking of S10, WE just completed it again the other night, and it really did stand out for me how - in both "Boots On The Ground" and "The Last Street In Manhattan" - both victims were killed at night, and in the case of the latter, it had to be fairly early since he sent his blind date home in a cab.

Yet when G/E go to both scenes, it is broad daylight! So Matt Clark lay on top of a taxi all night? And David Kellan just had a "siesta" in the middle of downtown? I love it.

Come to think of it, that same phenomenon happened all the way back in S1 in "Yesterday" when poor ol' Ricky was basically pushed to his death by his slimy cohort. That was at night and Deakins, Goren, and Eames were examining the body in the daytime.

It's just weird.

[WendyCR72]

Jay Mohr really did channel his inner Charlie Sheen pretty well. How the hell did he rant so fast? Still don't see why "The Consoler" was demoted as the premiere, though. In its original version, it still could have been (i.e. no therapy scenes - edited in later). USA still could have cashed in later. Shrug.

[WendyCR72]

"The Last Street In Manhattan" is on USA. I still laugh at the thought of the victim's body lying in the street all night without apparent notice, since Goren and Eames don't get to him 'til daylight. (He must smell good and ripe! LOL!)

[WendyCR72]

"Icarus", poor drunk Amanda Rollins, Broadway producer. Still funny how SVU appropriated the same name mere months after that episode.

[WendyCR72]

"The Consoler" is on. And I still wish the ending Eames line of "He's baaaaack!" in the observation room with Captain Hannah was left in after Goren got Johnny to crack. Also liked the original beginning with all the cops there welcoming both back. (Supposed to be the first episode originally.)

[WendyCR72]

USA is showing "Cadaver" from S10. Wonder if Steven Weber liked only to have to show up for the intro? And a case using dead bodies always struck me as eeewww.

[pound68]

On 10/17/2015 at 8:52 AM, Eolivet said:

"Cadaver" is really, really good -- like earlier seasons twisty. The multiple suspects, each with something to hide (a secret affair! a secret lovechild!) Earlier seasons always seemed to have the reason for murder being something in childhood, and I liked how that ep played on this idea. Poor Maya Zhuang, who only wanted to be an artist, and ended up covering up her mother's murder. I also liked that her mistakes were because she might've wanted to get caught.

 

But boy, those scenes with Goren and his shrink are unbearable. Half the time, she seems like she wants to be his mother, and the other half, it's like she's hitting on him. "Why is it so important for me to know that you can't have romantic feelings for someone you respect? Anyone in particular? Like...someone in this room?" Meh.

Yeah just rewatching old CI and wishing it was Skoda in the shrink chair.  It isn't the question "you can't have feelings for someone you respect.." that bothers me. It is the way she inserts herself in there. "Why is it important for me to know.." This just seems like the opposite of what a good shrink would do.  She does it again with the "you don't trust me" stuff.  Skoda was always very professionally distant. I remember one very notable exception where he yells at a bad seed little girl to test her reaction.

Edited May 31, 2017 by pound68

[Xeliou66]

Also remember the time that Skoda started insulting the mob boss, calling him the "Diaper Don" and other insults, to provoke a confrontation to prove he did know his surroundings. But yeah, Skoda was the best mental health expert in the L&O universe, I wish it had been him or even Olivet, who was a very good shrink in interacting with people, just soft and sympathetic when dealing with criminals, instead of Gyson, who seemed unprofessional and frequently seemed like she was trying to cross boundaries or provoke Goren.

Overall though, season 10 was a great improvement over the previous few years, it was like a return to the CI of 1-5, and it's a shame it only lasted for 8 episodes because they really had great writing. 

[wknt3]

8 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Also remember the time that Skoda started insulting the mob boss, calling him the "Diaper Don" and other insults, to provoke a confrontation to prove he did know his surroundings. But yeah, Skoda was the best mental health expert in the L&O universe, I wish it had been him or even Olivet, who was a very good shrink in interacting with people, just soft and sympathetic when dealing with criminals, instead of Gyson, who seemed unprofessional and frequently seemed like she was trying to cross boundaries or provoke Goren.

They probably didn't have the budget for JK Simmons or Carolyn McCormick. And having Olivet would have probably invited comparisons to her and Logan that they didn't want. But I agree that the character wasn't well written which was very disappointing as they usually did a great job with psychologists/psychiatrists across the franchise, especially the recurring ones (I also really like Huang from SVU)
 

Quote

Overall though, season 10 was a great improvement over the previous few years, it was like a return to the CI of 1-5, and it's a shame it only lasted for 8 episodes because they really had great writing. 

Yeah, but one of the reasons the writing was so good was that USA gave them a truncated season for a proper goodbye and essentially stopped interfering and let them write the show they wanted to write and had built the format for. And they went in with a plan and knew they didn't have any time to waste. If they had given them significantly more episodes there would almost certainly have been filler and more attempts to tweak things and change their minds and renew it,

[Xeliou66]

Yeah I bet they couldn't afford to have Skoda or Olivet for 8 episodes, and yeah Olivet did sleep with a patient once, a lot of people speculate it was Logan, and that could've brought some unwanted comparisons. But I wish it had been one of them instead of Gyson, who just wasn't that likable and acted very weirdly. 

I wish that the season had been longer, of course there would be some filler but overall the show was back on track to what it used to be, it had writers who understood the format and what the show was, it finally had a captain that added something to his scenes after the annoying asshole Ross and the no personality Callas, Joe Hannah was a good addition, and the show had moved past the soapy storylines that dominated the awful Leight years. 

[WendyCR72]

Oddly, Gyson appeared to be an idea added later on. As I have said prior, I won a copy of the original cut of "The Consoler" on eBay a year or two ago. It was originally to be the premiere. But then Charlie Sheen had his infamous meltdown and "Rispetto" with Jay Mohr came from that and was re-positioned as the first episode. 

Anyway, among other minor changes (lines, scenes, etc.), there was no Dr. Gyson in the original cut. I do recall when Deadline announced Julia Ormond's casting, and it was after filming had begun. That much, I recall. So obviously, at least at the start, the shrink stuff was edited in after the fact.

I think I read that Warren Leight - while not EP by then - wrote the shrink scenes. I agree. They were extremely hit and miss. And I was very often on Goren's side when he would become annoyed with her. (From what I have read on social media, however, VDO had  a ball working with Julia Ormond. He has also praised his other co-stars, too, so I think he was sincere there.) Still, aside from his cameo in S1, I would have liked to see how Goren would have dealt with Skoda. In a way, Eames was a lot like Skoda in terms of sarcasm/snark, so maybe Goren would have been more equipped to interact with him.

As an aside, speaking of changes from original episode cuts, I wish the original-filmed S10 ending could have been a bonus scene on the DVDs. I have seen snippets of it from an old commercial on YT, but not the whole thing. Also read that, in that ending, Rene Balcer had a cameo, too.

[Xeliou66]

That is very interesting stuff about the deleted scenes and original episodes. I'm not surprised that Leight wrote the shrink scenes, he's the one who wrecked the Goren character and the show and so he knew more about Goren's issues than anyone since he was the one who turned Goren into a tortured, somewhat unstable character. 

I knew that Rispetto was bumped up to the first episode after the Charlie Sheen meltdown, but was that episode already written before the Sheen meltdown or not? What was changed about The Consoler? And what was the original season 10 ending? I'm curious about this. 

[wknt3]

10 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah I bet they couldn't afford to have Skoda or Olivet for 8 episodes, and yeah Olivet did sleep with a patient once, a lot of people speculate it was Logan, and that could've brought some unwanted comparisons. But I wish it had been one of them instead of Gyson, who just wasn't that likable and acted very weirdly.

I wasn't even thinking of her maybe sleeping with him, but more that it would seem like a rehash in some ways (Olivet counseling one of the leads) and that it would remind the fans of Logan which they probably didn't want to do. But that's probably another reasons the writers and producers wouldn't want to go that way. Of course if they were going to be badly written and not really add anything I'd rather they didn't ruin an existing character. I think it probably would have been marginally better since their styles were already established, but still not very good.
 

Quote

I wish that the season had been longer, of course there would be some filler but overall the show was back on track to what it used to be, it had writers who understood the format and what the show was, it finally had a captain that added something to his scenes after the annoying asshole Ross and the no personality Callas, Joe Hannah was a good addition, and the show had moved past the soapy storylines that dominated the awful Leight years. 

I wish they had brought in Hannah earlier too. I don't hate Ross as much as most here seem to, but I have to agree that Callas was a complete non-entity. One of the dullest characters in the entire franchise (perhaps even more boring than Alexandra Borgia from the mothership.) As far as the show getting back on track I agree, but as @WendyCR72 have discussed previously here in depth one of the biggest reasons for the changes was that USA wanted it that way. If they hadn't given up on it they never would have allowed them to go back to the show's roots. The network execs almost certainly wouldn't have given them the freedom if they gave them a full season. It probably would have been more along the lines of season 9 - better than 8, but nowhere near as good as 10.

[Xeliou66]

I think that season 9's episodes would be viewed much better if it was Goren, Eames and Hannah instead of Nichols, Stevens and Callas. Callas was the most boring character in the L&O franchise IMO, worse than Lewin, Borgia or Cassady from the mothership and any on SVU or even TBJ. She added nothing to her scenes, she was exceptionally flat and dull. Stevens wasn't much better, she was not a good actress and just basically a pretty face and not a good fit. I liked Nichols okay but fans were mixed on him and his style wasn't as good as Goren's. 

The episodes themselves were very good for the most part in season 9, a lot of them felt like a return to the dark cases, sinister motives and disturbed killers that we saw in the early seasons. I think if it had been season 10's cast, season 9 would be viewed much better. The show hit rock bottom in 6-7, with terrible personal soap opera's taking center stage. Season 8 was an improvement but the out of order episodes threw things off, and season 9 felt like a full return to the glory years of CI case wise. I wish season 10 had had at least 16 episodes, they were just as good as ever in 10.

[WendyCR72]

4 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I knew that Rispetto was bumped up to the first episode after the Charlie Sheen meltdown, but was that episode already written before the Sheen meltdown or not? What was changed about The Consoler? And what was the original season 10 ending? I'm curious about this. 

I don't recall if "Rispetto" was already written, but considering how closely Mohr channeled Sheen, I'm going to guess it was USA/NBCU getting in on more "ripped from the headlines", and it probably was not already written. But I could be wrong.

As for the S10 original ending in "To The Boy...", Goren was walking out of a building in the same clothing he wore in the ending used, but Eames was dressed slightly differently, still standing near the SUV. However, Goren wasn't exiting the shrink brownstone, but some sort of city building. It was a lot noisier/busier with folks walking to and fro down the street. I think one of those folks was Balcer. That was the snippet, so I have no idea if the dialogue would have been the same or totally different. I read that ending was completely filmed but never used so beyond the snippet, I'm also curious as to how it went. All I remember reading is either TPTB or VDO/KE wanted a "quieter" ending, so the ending was redone.

As for "The Consoler" and its original edit, the main story is still the same, but when G/E arrive, as one example, all of the other cops shout out to them as it pans around the place with cops saying "Welcome back!" And the cop that led them to Theresa's body also stops G/E to tell them how glad he is they're back. The very end, after Goren got Johnny to break down, he still stands near the wall. However, unlike the fade out there, it then pans back to Hannah and Eames in the observation room, staring at Goren. Then Alex says, "He's baaaack." There are other changes, but those are the only two I can readily remember by memory. If ever you are still curious, let me know. I can look at the rest again. I'd put it on YT, but NBCU would pull it in no time flat. What's also funny is Jay O. Sanders actually did have his name in the credits with pic, etc., but when he was actually on the show, he was reduced to "Also Starring" before the list of guest stars. And the theme on this screener copy was also the same, but the end shot still showed G/E walking with Ross with "RESHOOT WITH J. SANDERS" above. Obviously, that also never happened, and that end shot would later be redone with only G/E for S10.

[Maherjunkie]

Now see I loved  seasons 6-7 and thought Leight breathed new life into the show.  5 was dead.

[WendyCR72]

3 hours ago, Maherjunkie said:

Now see I loved  seasons 6-7 and thought Leight breathed new life into the show.  5 was dead.

I actually liked a lot of S6-7, too. But I will concede it had much more of a "personal stories" bent, and some don't watch for that.

[Xeliou66]

Seasons 6-7 were for the most part horrible. Leight certainly changed the show, but not for the better. I didn't think 5 was dead at all, I thought 5 was another terrific season overall with classic CI stories. In season 6, the show became very soap opera like, as well as cheesy and overdramatic in places with the writers clearly trying to be like CSI with the camera angles, flashbacks and music scenes. It was like watching a different, less intelligent show. And don't even get me started on how they tried to ruin Goren with his horrid personal episodes, and made him into some of kind of super depressed up stable angry nutjob, it was a really cheap ploy to throw in soapy drama, and also Warren showed off his love of having female characters attacked when he had Eames kidnapped right off the bat. Douchebag Ross replacing Deakins was not good at all, and Carver and the legal side was sorely missed. 

I did enjoy most of the Logan episodes of those years, they were much better and less soapy usually than the Goren ones and it was good to see Logan back and while still very passionate, also having less of a temper and sometimes being the voice of reason between Ross and his partner. There weren't a whole lot of good Goren-Eames episodes on the other hand, those were always more soapy and flat.  

[WendyCR72]

4 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Warren showed off his love of having female characters attacked when he had Eames kidnapped right off the bat.

True, but at least Eames got to be proactive and save herself. I did love that much. And as much as I wished Goren's mom was left unseen, from an acting standpoint, it was cool to see both Rita Moreno and Roy Scheider.

And I did like the callback to "Probability" from S2, seeing Wally in prison with Brady in "Endgame". For me, the show did get a bit too personal at times, but I still thought the acting and episodes were good. Even if some of the other changes bugged me.

Maybe because of the 2008 writers' strike, but S8 seemed disjointed to me. And S9...well, I've said my piece there often enough.

At least we have a dislike of Ross in common, @Xeliou66!

Edited June 5, 2017 by WendyCR72

[Maherjunkie]

Maybe the Goren drama went on too long, but I appreciated the dimension, and wish I could have seen more of it from Logan's side.

[WendyCR72]

2 hours ago, Maherjunkie said:

Maybe the Goren drama went on too long, but I appreciated the dimension, and wish I could have seen more of it from Logan's side.

Basically this. Leight went on too long with kicking Goren when he was down, but I liked the character insight. As for Logan, I agree that he also should have been fleshed out. He was part of the franchise from word go, but aside the crumbs about dad being a cop and having a witch of a religious mom...*crickets*. I wouldn't have minded a bit more insight with Mike, too.

I'll also say, after years of hearing about him, I did like meeting Johnny Eames, too.

[Xeliou66]

I thought it was pure character destruction for Goren, not character insight. It did nothing to kill off Goren's mom, make his bio dad a serial killer, have him get tortured in a mental institution to save his nephew that was never heard from again, then have Nicole kill off his brother and have his batshit crazy mentor then kill Nicole and frame him. It was pure soap opera garbage that was ridiculous. And Goren didn't get any development, they just turned him into a distubed angry depressed unstable nutjob and took away his energy and his spark and made him into a brooding, depressed character and as a result the show lost a lot of its life and became a mediocre soap opera instead of the intriguing drama it was in the first 5 years. The show barely focused on the villains or their motives and psyche, and the show stopped being the dark and psychological drama it was in the first 5 seasons. Goren didn't get his spark back until the 10th season. 

I'm glad they didn't turn Logan into a tortured, depressed character with a ton of personal baggage. I thought they wrote for Logan quite well and continued his development from L&O. 

I liked meeting Johnny Eames, and they wrote that in quite well. They spoke to him as a natural part of the case while they were visiting Eames' old neighborhood, and they didn't give the Eames family a soapy storyline that distracted from the cases. Too bad the same can't be said for Goren's mom.