Chloe Sullivan: Let's Be Real, She was the Real Lois Lane!

[GHScorpiosRule]

Chloe was my favorite character on this show. And that's due to the talent of Allison Mack.

 

Her, Clark and Pete, being the Scooby Do Gang, investigating, reporting. Well, she did the actual reporting, editing and made The Torch what it was; she interned, worked like a dog to get the story. She should have been Lois. The groundwork was laid out for that, as far as I'm concerned.

[Bitterswete]

She should have been Lois.

 

I have to say I never wanted Chloe to be Lois. I thought she was awesome enough being herself, and the thought of Chloe actually being Lois never even entered my mind, unless the show was overtly teasing it. And, even then I didn't think they were really going to do a "Chloe is actually Lois" thing. 

 

Also, I never looked at Chloe and thought, "That's a young Lois Lane right there." I thought she had some of the traits I associate with Lois (which made sense given they are cousins), but there were always things about her character that I didn't see as very Lois-like. Which I actually liked. Chloe sort of filled the Lois role (investigating things, getting into trouble) but was a character in her own right.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I actually agree with you, my attempt at that witty title was my way of saying that this show didn't need that pathetic iteration of Lois we got stuck with in Erica Durance, when we already had Smallville's version of what Lois Lane should be, if that makes sense.

 

Other than her also harping and butting her nose in trying to find out the "truth" about Clark's "real" and "biological" parents, after he asked her to drop it, and in season 8 and 9, Chloe was my favorite character in this show.  Now, I didn't want her and Clark to be a couple throughout the series, but I really wish the asshats would have at least had them date, because it was clear to me, that Clark did have feelings for her, but noooo, that stupid tornado happened, Lana was aloooonne again, so of course he dropped Chloe as if she were kryptonite.

 

Not that I'm bitter or anything.

[ElleryAnne]

Other than her also harping and butting her nose in trying to find out the "truth" about Clark's "real" and "biological" parents

 

 

 

so of course he dropped Chloe as if she were kryptonite.

 

 

You just reminded me of two moments that get to me even years later.  The Clark-Chloe scenes in Lineage (when he confronts her about snooping into his adoption and later when they're talking again), and Clark and Chloe talking in the woods in Vortex (the "better off as friends" speech).  I still get teary-eyed during those scenes thanks to AM's incredible acting in those scenes.  

[DisneyBoy]

Going to begin my tenure here at P.TV by picking up the subject that kept me going to TWOP for years and years...Smallville!  Specifically Chloe.

 

I was never one who believed that she'd turn out to be Lois Lane...I was more rooting for the producers not to allow their hands to be tied by the comics and instead follow-through on what they already had going - the makings of a big Chloe/Clark relationship.  Shame they never went there even for a brief period.  It might have been nice for Chloe and Clark to date and then mutually part.

[BkWurm1]

I was never tied to the notion that she HAD to be known as Lois Lane, just that she would be the equivalent of Lois on the show and in many ways even without ever having an explored romantic relationship with Clark, Chloe Sullivan's legacy on Smallville is the one that I see as having had the bigger influence on the modern direction of Lois Lane than EDLois.

People have different opinions on Man of Steel (I liked it in spite of some plot holes and the destruction of most of Manhattan) but I thought Amy Adams take on Lois was very telling. Hair color isn't important. Bombshell looks aren't important. The triangle for two isn't important. What is important? Being smart. Being dedicated to her job. Being resourceful and determined but also in it for the greater good. Knowing when to keep a secret. Being trustworthy, loyal, and a friend. Brave, but not foolish. These are the qualities I saw explored with Chloe. Theses are the qualities that Clark Kent on Man of Steel falls for in Lois Lane.

****Off topic but can I put in a request to alter the title of this thread? I love the sentiment behind it, believe me I do, but I fear it sends the wrong message. How about a more neutral title like

Chloe Sullivan: The Slickest Blond You'll Ever Meet!

It both very positive and one of my favorite quotes from the show.

Edited June 2, 2014 by BkWurm1

[Iamsweetdee]

I have not hated any television character more than I have hated the character of Chloe Sullivan. I hated her immediately in the pilot and it just grew and grew. 

[DigitalCount]

Chloe Sullivan: The Slickest Blond You'll Ever Meet!

But she wasn't really a blonde...lol I know, it's a quote.

 

I liked Chloe better when the show didn't pretend she was hideous, unlovable and undeserving of life. Kick-the-Chloe was quite possibly the dumbest game ever created, and yet TPTB couldn't stop playing it. Part of this is AM's fault for cornering the market on acting like someone is tap-dancing on her heart without doing her the courtesy of taking it from her chest first, but the writers' determination from S2 onward (with the exception of S5) to make sure that Chloe's life sucked, full stop, was almost surreal.

[BkWurm1]

Few things are more attractive than someone happy with their life. That's probably why I liked season five so much. Chloe just shone so bright.

That was the show I wanted to watch. Oh, what could have been!

[loveigniting]

I grew to dislike her so much. I hated the way fandom valorized her, even while she was being *problematic* and I hated how they maligned and slut-shamed other female characters in favor of Chloe. This pattern continues on in shows like Arrow. It's the everywoman, the ostensible relatable girl. It's almost always the blonde white geek girl that the hero just doesn't see. It's T. Swift's You Belong With Me in all its problematic ways played out in the form of Chloe's Fever letter where she insinuates Lana's lack of worth; it's the myth of the Other Girl. I read this meta on tumblr about the One Acceptable Female Character and the fandom sociological reasons for the archetypes that usually fall prey to this syndrome. It illuminated Chloe's character and her treatment by fandom for me. 

 

Most of the below opinions about Chloe would be different if the show hadn't glossed over or whitewashed these actions. I adore dark characters as long as the narrative isn't muddled about what they are. 

 

I hated Chloe being whitewashed for actual shit she did. I hated that she could rarely take responsibility for her role in huge catastrophic events, or rather, the show wouldn't let her. I somehow ended up watching the Doomsday arc recently and I'm still flabbergasted at how Chloe neatly divided the blame for that between her and Clark and how she even blamed Clark's moral compass for Doomsday. Honey child. I almost became a lawyer and I can tell you for a fact that's not how it works. Clark intended to split Doomy and Davis but Clark was writhing on a floor when Chloe split Davis and Doomy. She (and others) sabotaged every one of Clark's plans to deal with Doomsday during that S8 arc and then assigned him half the blame/blamed his moral compass after it turned out horribly. I cannot.

 

I hated that she was harboring and covering up the murders of a serial killer. I hated her stance on murder - I remember her telling Clark to kill Lex in 7x19 by claiming Clark was a god, implying that he was beyond the rules of human morality such as murder. I hated that she tried to argue for Clark to kill Lex in s8. I hated that she killed Sebastian. She was infected by Brainiac, but Brainiac had nothing to gain from killing Sebastian and Chloe did. The Oliver scenes where he calls her out and she weakly says it was Brainiac and then goes along with covering it up is what created ambiguity for me - I was willing to write off Sebastian as mainly Brainiac's influence before that.  Since Sebastian could be argued as ambiguous, I don't completely hold Chloe's feet to the fire for that one, but her actions lined up with the way the character was going and did go - doing something to protect Clark even if it was something he would disapprove of.

 

The below quote is from a few episodes prior to Sebastian's death:

 

Smallville 7x19

 

Clark: Chloe, the person who did this may have kidnapped Lex.

Chloe: If they did, they only did it to save you.

Clark: That's the last thing I need ... someone going around killing people in my name.

Chloe: That's probably how god felt about the crusades.

 

I hated her for downplaying the deal with Lionel to Clark in Whisper and to Pauline Kahn in Thirst by removing all responsibility and agency from herself and transferring it to Lionel — insinuating that she was blackmailed when she made the deal of her own choice. I hated that she sold out her BFF and got a Daily Planet column in return for her services to Lionel...all because she was greedy and because she saw Clark/Lana together. I don't blame her for getting in over her head with Lionel after the fact but the deal that no one coerced her into making? Yeah, that I take issue with, especially since her reasons for the deal were so so sad. Clark didn't need Chloe's permission to date Lana. Chloe even told Lana to go for Clark, but apparently, when she did, she offended Chloe somehow. She wanted them to be completely honest with her and when they weren't, she turned around and gave into Lionel. If this was a man behaving this way, I know I'd have called this shit out when it aired. This storyline is what makes me cackle when people act like Chloe was character assassinated later on in the show. 

 

I hated the Nice Guy crap she pulled with Clark and Lana. It's not cute when it's a girl doing it - no one is entitled to anyone's love or affection, period. I hated her behavior with Lana when Lana was forced to be editor of the Torch - she acted like Lana was trying to steal Clark and the Torch away from her...and Lana was supposedly her friend.

 

I hated her telling Clark to play God repeatedly and when he refused to do it for her with Jimmy, she said that he wasn't human anymore. I hated the Big Brother crap she pulled because the show never actually went full tilt with it and, then, it was all swept under the rug, including her role in Doomsday. I hated that she embezzled money from Oliver which was something Lana was vilified for on the show. But not our little Chloe. I hated that she put cameras all over Clark's house and listened to his private calls, but when Lana spied on Lex , Chloe came down on her for it. But when Chloe does it, it's okay or something. Other than Clark's outrage, the narrative tried to validate some of that mess. SMH.

 

And as per this thread title, lmao no son. She wasn't Lois at all. Beyond the inherent Lois traits that exist in Lois(es) regardless of whether they work at a newspaper or love a Superman, Lois wouldn't advocate cold-blooded murder or tell a Superman to do it. Chloe told Clark to kill Lex in S7 and S8 IIRC. Lois wouldn't walk away from saving someone's life, even someone she hated, like Chloe did when she was going to let Tess die, even while telling her earlier that she would save her life. As if any Lois would believe that the ends justify the means, which Chloe clearly does.

 

In versions where Lois has been briefly involved with Bruce Wayne, she disdains Batman's methods. In an Elseworlds story where Clark is found by the Waynes and becomes Batman, he meets a Lois who scorns his brutality. Chloe, however, even says to Oliver in Roulette that the psychological torture she put him through was 'what needed to be done' and later, she implies that she aligns with 'doing what's necessary' versus 'doing what's right.' Watching Arrow in S6 showed that that type of thinking was not new to Chloe. She agreed with the Green Arrow's 'ends justify the means' methods which he himself spelled out to Clark in a scene earlier.

 

The show made mistakes with Lois for sure but that would only make her a poor Lois. It wouldn't transform Chloe into Lois. LMAO at that basic mess. I know Lois Lane. I've read pretty much everything Lois since I was five years old. Chloe was no Lois. The person Chloe was most similar to, at least early on, was actually pre-crisis Lana down to the teenage journalism and the unrequited feelings towards Clark. Funnily, comics!Lana was originally a copy of Lois, but she of course grew out of that and went on to have her own stories. Chloe was bits and pieces of several characters, including Pete, the Kents, Lana, Lois, Babs, and then her own person in the SV-verse.

 

I mainly only stuck to the big issues as to why I couldn't stand Miss Chloe Sullivan. The small stuff builds up, ofc, but the big stuff is mostly what I remember.

 

I almost almost fell in love with Chloe's story when they took her to a dark place because it felt completely consistent with the person Chloe had been becoming since S2. But, they pulled back.  Like someone said, Chloe was almost the Willow Rosenberg of this show and I have such strong feelings about Dark!Willow to this day. Ah well, what could have been. I hate Joss Whedon and his laughable faux feminism sfm but at least he wasn't afraid to go there.

Edited March 20, 2015 by loveigniting

[BkWurm1]

grew to dislike her so much. I hated the way fandom valorized her, even while she was being *problematic* and I hated how they maligned and slut-shamed other female characters in favor of Chloe. This pattern continues on in shows like Arrow. It's the everywoman, the ostensible relatable girl. It's almost always the blonde white geek girl that the hero just doesn't see. It's T. Swift's You Belong With Me in all its problematic ways played out in the form of Chloe's Fever letter where she insinuates Lana's lack of worth; it's the myth of the Other Girl. I read this meta on tumblr about the One Acceptable Female Character and the fandom sociological reasons for the archetypes that usually fall prey to this syndrome. It illuminated Chloe's character and her treatment by fandom for me.

 

I can't speak for shows I don't watch but your example of Arrow, the problem isn't everyone latching onto the "everywoman the hero just doesn't see" for one, he's totally in love with that girl right now so yeah, he sees her and she's not an everywoman (nor was Chloe) since Felicity on Arrow is flat out more brilliant than any of the other characters.  Others have their strengths too but she's got her niche covered to the extreme.  She's not an everywoman by any standards I can understand unless everywoman is code for approachable?  The other issue I have with comparing Arrow and Smallville is that while fandoms in Smallville divided into their camps, I know I've said all along on Arrow ANYONE but Laurel as a romantic interest.  Felicity, great but I'd have taken literally any of the other female characters on the show before Laurel.  ANY of them.   The issue isn't IMO the One Acceptable Female because I'd have been fine with Sara or Helena or McKenna or Shado.  Hell, I even caught some disturbing chemistry with the actress that played his sister. 

 

Going a step further on the Felicity from Arrow example - no one has ever accused her of being Laurel Lance. Laruel's Chlois problem had nothing to do with a fan favorite everywoman unless her back from the dead assassin trained sister Sara who lacked the name but had the outfits, the training, the signature power, and the comic book pseudo adoptive family could be considered an everywoman (the Other Only Acceptable Woman trope perhaps?)  Laurel's problem and Lois's too was that other characters got to the most easily associated traits and characteristics well before they did which by the time either Laurel or Lois ever do anything to perhaps work toward their comic "destinies" they are a Johnny come lately in their own story.  I've put my emotional investment elsewhere. 

 

On Smallville I backed Chloe because I was schooled in the Superman myhthos and Smallville was Superman just in highschool but as an origin story, but not Superboy (according even to the lawsuit they were fighting)  so Chloe was not intended as a split version of Lana but the Lois character on the show.  

 

It's not my fault that legal rigamaroll caused the show runners to drop a character into the show four seasons in with the name Lois to strengthen their case but after a pair of intro episodes decided to ditch 70 years of characteristics.  A few one off lines about bad spelling or liking monster trucks or having a general for a father (which doesn't even apply to most canons) doesn't weigh heavier in my book than being the journalist in Clark's life that helps him fight "crime". 

 

That was Chloe until the original show runners  lost control of their show.  Even after she was out of journalism, she remained his go to person for assistance and help. AND she finished the show once again as a journalist!  So her being presented for seven years as the Lois character on a Superman show, that is what made her the only acceptable character to start with for me.  Added to that was years of seeing a relationship with Lana that was based on fantasy and then later Lois that was based on retcons, rewrites and a lot of non subtile cause comics!! 

 

Chloe's character to me wasn't whitewashed.  When she made mistakes, she paid for them.  For giving into a weak moment and thinking, why should I worry so much about Clark when he's not worried about me and accepting an offer that she then still never betrayed Clark over and then tried to get out of, her father lost his job, never really recovered financially and she was nearly killed and then was blackballed at the DP and had to start over (over from being in the DP's good graces when she was a summer intern, not the column stuff) 

 

As for the Davis/Doomsday stuff, Clark said she was right in stopping him from sticking Davis in the Zone.  And she's not the one that interfered with Clark's plan to split Davis, she just happened to figure it out when Clark wasn't there.  It's not like they had anything to lose since at that moment Davis was already turning in to Doomsday.  It's not like they could sedate him again.  They missed their chance to deal with Davis, it was only Dooms from that moment out.  I never understood why Clark was upset when she split him.  It was the exact thing that Clark wanted done!!!

 

And when Jimmy died, how was it that she who suffered the most from both Davis and Jimmy's death is the only one strong enough not to run away.  She stayed and picked up the pieces. Alone.  Thinking her closer than a sister cousin was dead, knowing all her friends had slunk away and that the other important men in her life were either dead or pretending to be.  Her strength is what made Chloe an unforgettable character.  It's not Lois vs Chloe and it's certainly not Chlark vs Clois.  It's Chloe first and foremost that I adore.  My issues with Lois are about her, not merely in comparison to Chloe. 

 

That thing with Sebatian was a crappy thing to do.  It was pretty clear in the episode what was happening, then Oliver guilts Chloe about it and though she knows it wasn't her, she still feels responsible and so he is able to use her guilt against her.  As to why Brainiac acted, it was a dropped plot line but it seemed pretty clear to me later that it wasn't in Brainiac's best interest to have Clark's secret exposed to the world yet.  Brainiac was still weaving his plot which apparently included tricking Clark into taking him to the Fortress - not something easily accomplished once Clark is on the run or in government lockdown. 

 

Chloe told Clark to kill Lex in S7 and S8 IIRC. Lois wouldn't walk away from saving someone's life, even someone she hated, like Chloe did when she was going to let Tess die, even while telling her earlier that she would save her life.

 

No, she told Clark to do something about Lex each time when Clark was dithering and not acting while Lex was actively targeting him.  Clark is the one that suggests she's saying kill him.  She's pragmatic and is sorting all the options but she's the one that stopped Clark from killing Tess even when she was mind whammied to follow his command.  Clark was far more muddled on if he should kill or not than Chloe but then she also saw that his inaction led to deaths just as much as his actions might. 

 

As for almost walking away from Tess, well, she didn't did she.  And actions speak the loudest. 

 

Lois may not have advocated specifically for Clark to kill someone, but she also never advocated for him not to once she knew his secret.  Then she's all, well he's a god so he knows best I should just stay out of it unless he wants me to know.  Ick, I hated that impassive disinterest that I think was supposed to pass for faith, but then her faith and belief was that Clark had all the answers, was a god, and shouldn't be bothered with the distractions of an ordinary life proving to me that she didn't know him at all.  How can she love him is she doesn't know him? 

 

As for Clark, I'm pretty sure after dealing with Doomsday, Jor-El brainwashed him and messed with his memory so he only thought he was in love with Lois, cause what I saw on screen was him finally just barely learning to like her.  Even his supposed "never looked at Chloe like that" moment only happened when Lois was actually Chloe and had been all day.  And Chloe's belief in Clark and in knowing the real him broke Zatana's spell and let him become who he really was.  The meta was so incredibly in your face!  (IMO) 

 

They could have written a solid Lois and Clark love story but they didn't so this never ending contention will probably be never ending but that's fine. 

 

I much prefer Amy Adams as Lois anyway. 

Edited March 21, 2015 by BkWurm1

[DigitalCount]

That was impressive. I've seen similar sentiments and wondered how to answer, as it's as if we were watching different shows. I'll never understand how apparently, carrying out a plan because someone else can't is considered sabotaging it. Like, she should have let Davis transform and get away while she had the Black K, so everyone could blame her for standing around doing nothing while Doomsday killed everybody? Lol please.

If people are more okay with giving Chloe allowances, it's because Chloe constantly got crapped on, constantly was marginalized, constantly got forced into an underdog position, and her two romantic rivals disrespected Clark on a weekly basis. Why anyone would want him saddled with the Pink or Nois is beyond me.

[SteveS]

I like Chloe, I like Lana & I love Lois. I don't understand some fans who love one character have to bash & be nasty & cruel towards other characters. The first time watching, I really liked Chloe, but after reading some posts online from some of her fans towards Lana & Lois, upon rewatching I started looking at Chloe through how those fans looked at the others & Chloe just didn't measure up any more. I hope to get past that & back to enjoying Chloe in the future. Chloe should be in jail for life for aiding & abetting a serial killer & disposing of human remains, but because I like Chloe I don't want her in jail.

I don't understand the title of this thread. Chloe never was & never will be Lois. She never was intended to be, how ridiculous. Chloe is a unique character to Smallville & I like her being herself. Chloe was editor of the Torch as a freshman, not realistic, but that's Smallville, you move past it. The editor assigns stories to the reporters, does the layout. That is not & never has been Lois Lane. Lois is an investigator. Chloe was devastated when the principal made her step down from editor, Lois wouldn't be fazed one bit by that, she wouldn't care who was the editor, she'd just go on investigating.

In the episode where she had the parasite & Clark was on red k, I don't know why she couldn't just have fun kissing Clark. She just had to have Pete take them to the Talon to rub it in Lana's face. The worst part was her twisting the knife in her back, with saying Clark has told her everything! She knew that was the one way to hurt Lana. Chloe was just too unnecessarily mean there.

Chloe's first big betrayal was digging into Clark's adoption. Being as she wasn't the adoptee & they weren't 18, it was probably illegal too. She even lied to him & told him she dropped it. She brought that crazy lady into their lives. The worst part was how callous & disrespectful she was to Martha & Jonathan by doing this. Adoption is such a private & sensitive subject and was completely between Clark & his parents. Clark having such a big heart, forgave her, but never forgot it, I'm sure. This was the point when I knew Clark would never love her.

Of course her big betrayal with Lionel was even worse. Clark didn't even promise Chloe anything, why she felt entitled to his personal life boggles the mind. I understand she had feelings for him so I could see her being hurt & sad, but to be so angry to turn to Lionel was too much. Have a good cry girl & move on. Clark & Chloe were barely friends in seasons 2 & 3. They were angry with each other most of those seasons. Season 4 she hardly interacted with him.

Season 5 when she let him know she knew his secret was the best season of their friendship. I really enjoyed it, but it was the beginning of the end of her passion for journalism. While her getting into the DP was hard to buy, I could overlook it (that is until I read criticism of how Lois got her start-Lois entry was done much better than Chloe). She was a really good friend to Clark & I appreciated that about her, but by doing so, she lacked her spark of reporting the story in order to protect him. I don't blame her, I think she chose the right path, but she was just adequate at her job & remained stagnant there.

Seasons 6, 7 & 8 she was in a relationship with Jimmy. That was her main focus & helping Clark out here & there. Season 8 she lied & betrayed Clark too much. She didn't know him at all. He never would have wanted her to leave with Davis & she didn't trust Clark at all. Hard for me to like her during the second half of this season. They never really got back to being good friends. Tom seemed just totally over the Chloe character by the finale. Clark never said one word to her & he didn't even hug her back when she left. I liked the first scene with Oliver in the finale at the church, but their last scene together was awful. When she was at the house & telling everyone what she was going to do, why couldn't they have Oliver say something like "good idea, I'll stay here & take care of this & that"? Instead he wants to be her driver & she has to tell him what to to. Then she hugs Clark but walks away without a hug to her husband or Lois. Oliver chases after her like a puppy dog & again wants to just be her chauffeur. He's the freaking Green Arrow! He shouldn't need Chloe telling him to be a hero. They should have had her turn to hug him, but have him say he'll walk her out, so they could have that beautiful shot of them kissing outside the farm house. Ollie being heroic here, wouldn't have diminished Chloe. I just wish they would have handled this better.

Overall, I liked Chloe, but some of her fans nitpicking, twisting & sometimes just outright lying about Lana & Lois every move, while glorifying Chloe is just so wrong & takes away my enjoyment of Chloe a bit. Maybe I'll see some of her fans lighten up on the others & with time I can like Chloe for who she was, warts & all.

[BkWurm1]

The editor assigns stories to the reporters, does the layout. That is not & never has been Lois Lane. Lois is an investigator. Chloe was devastated when the principal made her step down from editor, Lois wouldn't be fazed one bit by that, she wouldn't care who was the editor, she'd just go on investigating.

Chloe was both editor and the main reporter on The Torch. She did everything. Journalism was her life. She was justifiably devastated when Kwan took the paper away. As for the idea that Lois was never an editor, she filled in for Perry plenty of times in the comics and even was promoted to editor a time or two. And in the end, Chloe as an adult was strictly a reporter.

Rush - mind whammie by infected bug that made everyone act out of character.

Investigating Clark's adoption was for a school assigned interview. Then she made a few not so thought out choices (but made with good intensions) as a 14 year old kid. I'll give her a pass since Clark did.

Her deal with Lionel was a mistake she paid for by nearly dying and her father not being able to get hired even later. She made the deal but never betrayed Clark. And again, she was a kid. Clark more than forgave her, he came to rely on her more than anyone.

Season four their friendship was very solid. She protected him and kept his secret and saved his life more than a few times even before he knew she knew. The second half of the season they were thick as thieves. Opening of season five he corrected her from thinking he was meteor infected and shared his true identity when he didn't have to.

Chloe refused to build her career on the back of Clark's ability but she was passionate about journalism and even after being fired, her brain taking over by an evil alien computer, having to give up her life twice - three times counting season nine when she put back together the Justice League and still when she finally had the chance to choose what she wanted in life, she went back to reporting. Lois got to be blissfully ignorant and when she did know, she was fine letting Clark handle his problems He could tell her or not. She figured she should stay out of it unless he said otherwise. If Chloe had done that Both Clark and the world would have fallen multiple times. That Lois didn't have to worry about saving the world doesn't speak highly of her character to me. She just wasn't very important to the show, IMO.

If Chloe hadn't hid Davis and gone with him many more lives would have been lost including Clark's. Clark was the one that stopped listening to her so she was forced to save his butt. Again. He told the fake her she was completely right in what she did. He told the real her the following year that he had been wrong about pushing her away and how he treated her and later admitted he needed the same big brother network he'd been concerned about before.

Her relationship with Jimmy failed again and again because she always chose Clark over him so I strongly disagree that she only helped him here and there. By the time Dark Clark got his head screwed back on right, Chloe had to go in hiding so she could once again save EVERYONE. And his reason for not blindly trusting her was because his feelings were hurt over her not contacting him or explaining her plan which only took admitting before he did fully trust her again.

I strongly disagree that either Clark or the actor playing him was over Chloe as a character. She again saved him at the church ( oops, the wedding was off). He didn't have to say a word back at the farmhouse, his expression of surprise, regret, guilt and determination said it all. And his arms most certainly did close around her in a hug. Oliver even glares with jealousy. Yeah, I thought it very telling that in a crisis Chloe only thought of Clark and I thought it very telling that once she left he left the farmhouse too without a word to Lois or his mother. It was as if once Chloe left only then did he feel the weight of the world on his shoulders. Chloe though had complete confidence with her parting line about seeing him in the funny papers.

Just another ordinary day for Chloe and Clark fighting to save the world.

Edited March 29, 2015 by BkWurm1

[SteveS]

Your love for Chloe does have you elevating her status over the top a bit. I liked her having flaws and being human. It made her character more interesting. Chloe having sex with Jimmy when she was an intern & their three season relationship, getting engaged and married, proclaiming their undying devotion to each other in the season 8 finale and him dying in her arms was beautiful and tragic. So, it made it all the more sweeter when they showed her happy in the end.

Tom only agreed to come back for seasons 9 & 10 if he had more control over Clark. That is when he had Clark distance himself from Chloe. He did not like her having so much of the story time in season 8. Chloe & Lois love each other, and the actresses really like each other a lot, and hate how some of their fans feel the need to bash the other.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Lisin
Removed rude (to other poster) comments

[BkWurm1]

It was the show that elevated her up over the rest.  Believe me, I was completely astounded at what they did with her character and the send off they gave her in regards to first Lois and then Clark.  This was the episode where Lois and Clark were having their wedding.  This should not have been one of the biggest reminders to me why I always rooted for a Chlark pairing.  The show gave that to me, I didn't have to make up anything. 
 
As I pointed out, Chloe paid for her mistakes, learned from them and grew.  I just pointed out that the show doesn't hold anyone responsible when they are mind whammied (and in Rush a radical change in personality was a specific symptom) and when Chloe was a 14 year old girl who thought her own mother had abandoned her, she did very reasonably think she was doing a wonderful thing for her best friend and yeah, I'm not going to vilify her for it when, as pointed out, Clark didn't either. 
 
As for Davis, Chloe and Clark both made bad choices and the number one IMO being not listening to each other so the convoluted reasons why things happened wouldn't have been needed.  
 

Chloe having sex with Jimmy when she was an intern & their three season relationship, getting engaged and married, proclaiming their undying devotion to each other in the season 8 finale and him dying in her arms was beautiful and tragic.

 

Yup, had sex trying to forget Clark, regretted it.  Jimmy never called.  Then when he does show up he played the part of the attentive boyfriend but far too often Chloe was forced to play dumb to boost his ego  and she never trusted him over Clark (or Davis but Braininac was influencing that) and when Jimmy finally realized he wasn't her first place priority, he turned on her, robbed her, called her foul names, humiliated her in public and then shows up at the end like all that could be swept under the rug.  Chloe finally was able to make him believe her that she didn't leave him for Davis - which was absurd since he was the one that left her - he says he loves her and then dies, heroically but it was a bad romance from start to finish.  He was her Lana.  And with him, she acted like a pod person, bent and twisted to be something less so he would feel better.  There was no need to kill him but I was happy when he was gone.  
 

Tom only agreed to come back for seasons 9 & 10 if he had more control over Clark. That is when he had Clark distance himself from Chloe. He did not like her having so much of the story time in season 8. Chloe & Lois love each other, and the actresses really like each other a lot, and hate how some of their fans feel the need to bash the other.

 

No, that is not true. He came back because they agreed to make his show, Hellcats.  The rest sounds to me like wishful thinking.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Lisin
Removed some quotes that quoted removed content.

[Chloe]

Well, Chloe is my favourite and don't  approve everything she did (Sebastian my main concern over the series). But, let's face it:

 

-The show made it clear that, hadn't been for Chloe, Smallville Universe wouldn't have had Superman. We just have to remember the NotWedding in Finale.

 

-She was the one that ALWAYS cared for Clark, no matter the situation (what about season 9, and in season 8 with Davis, she may have had done bad choices but she never forget Clark and his destiny to be fullfilled somehow).

 

-She resisted on loving Clark, because she knew he was in lovewith Lana, and accepted it. When she find some balance with her "love" with Jimmy she could have tried to be with Clark, but subconsciously didn't want to lose what she had with Jimmy because she knew that Clark still loved Lana.

In Season 8, after Clark lost Lana, she still loved Clark but encouraged him on moving to Lois. (bad-writting maybe?)
Somebody can argue that she had some trouble this season in terms of love: she liked Davis and loved Jimmy but still loved Clark: because we know from Abyss he was her more precious one in her life -maybe not love? If so, why was he her last memory?

 

-Clark was stupid. An stupid good-hearted hero, but stupid. Chloe, and Clark's parents: Martha, Jonathan and Jor-EL (this one with strange methods) were the ones who made him what he was. Lana and Lois also had their part, but Chloe was  there when he travelled through space and time, the one who saved him from the kryptonite, the one who knew how to discover classified information and hacked everything for him.... She was the one that put her life in peril several times and had to buy a new identity.

 

-Lois was good in her job, but Chloe lost hers while Lois won it mainly because Grant wanted her and had some luck with the tabloids. I'm not dimissing Lois skills, but Chloe is far more competent.

 

-And Clark felt in love with Lois out of a sudden...

I remember that after Requiem, that Clark wants to go back time (destroying everything he learned in Reckoning) and, if it could be possible, to the exact moment he has to pick up Lois. I also remember in 9.1 or 9.2 when he goes to Jor-El and he tells him she should stop thinking of his "beloved ones". And, wonder who is? It is Lois! Lana's thoughts had disappeared. 8 seasons disappeared.

 

 

So, these are a few reasons why, for me, in this Universe, Chloe should have been, at the end, the authentic Lois Lane. They had a problem. They tried to rewrite the show forgetting the previous seasons. It was still a good show for me (season 9 and 10) but I'd have preferred having seen those two seasons before the first 8 ones. Because it would have made more sense to me.

 

They created an artificial way of falling in love. I bought how Lois Lane fell in love with Clark, I think it was realistic, but not how Clark end up loving Lois (especially in S9, after the Lana thing, in Season 8 I thought that, although he didn't love Lois, I understood he was beginning to see her in another way). SO, after that, being in love with Lois? Not in a universe where Lana still exists. But, more importantly, not in a universe where, after having realized that, maybe, he and Lana are star-crossed lovers, the girl that had always been there to be his partner; Chloe, still was there, waiting for him.

 

At least, they should have waited until s10 to Clois, or hint at it at the very end. But the story was not important, they owe that to Clois shippers, I suppose. But what about Chlarkers??

Edited October 12, 2015 by Chloe

[BkWurm1]

Taking reply to the Ship Yard Relationship Thread.

 

Yep, we have one now.  ;)

[Chloe]

A Ship Thread? Great!

[amensisterfriend]

The title of this thread has me nodding in enthusiastic agreement because, while I'm not a Lois Lane expert, from everything I've read and seen Chloe is everything that I like about the original---albeit with very different hair :) I've been rewatching a bunch of episodes for the second (in some cases third) time lately, and I just can't shake the feeling that Smallville's Lois feels kind of redundant because of Chloe. Chloe happens to (IMO, obviously!) have that insatiable curiosity, spunk, snark, boldness, impulsiveness etc. that I associate with Lois without the large dose of smugness, arrogance, too-cool-for-the-room vibe that I often saw in Smallville's version of Lois. I even see Chloe as a more natural fit for the brilliant, stop-at-nothing-to-get-the-truth reporter role that Lois soon occupied. 

 

Chloe isn't even necessarily the type of character I usually love and relate to, but Allison Mack gave her a real vulnerability and depth IMO that makes me love her even more while rewatching. It's not even necessarily a "ship"-related thing for me---I'm mostly fine with Chloe not ending up with Clark and actually liked her with Ollie. It's just that they made Chloe so lovably Lois-y to me that the real Lois ended up feeling like an unnecessary and less likable version of Chloe to me while relegating Chloe to a less important role.

 

For all the things Smallville got wrong, though, I'll always appreciate the show for giving us Chloe (and their versions of Lex and Lionel, but that's for another thread!) 

 

Which seasons/episodes do you guys think highlight Chloe at her most awesome?!

Edited March 13, 2016 by amensisterfriend

[AndySmith]

In some ways, Chloe reminds me of Will Tippin from Alias. Like Will, she became much more likeable after she finds out THE BIG SECRET HER CRUSH HAS. Granted, AM always did a great job with the character, but I found myself tolerating Chloe as a character, before she finds out, to loving her after she find out. Just like Will.

I'm never a fan of the character who keeps snooping around their crush, even though their crush keeps telling to stop and mind their own business. Granted, in Will's case it was worse, since he was doing it more to prove to Sydney he was knight in shining frosted tips. At least Chloe seemed to have a genuine reason (Wall of Weirdness) driving her to find out what was going on with Clark, besides her crush on Clark.

She definitely filled in the role of "Clarke's friend who knows his secret" much better than Pete did, and was certainly a heck of a lot more useful.

Quote

Which seasons/episodes do you guys think highlight Chloe at her most awesome?

Don't know the episode, but one small example I always liked was one episode (in season 4, maybe?) where Clark lost his memory. Anyway, Chloe knows about Clark's powers at this point, knows he has super hearing, knows Lex is up to no good, so she whispers from a distance for Clark not to trust Lex, and she knows Clark will hear it.

It's little moments like that which, for me, sum up nicely 2 of Chloe's better qualities, her loyalty and her smarts.

Edited May 7, 2016 by AndySmith

[amensisterfriend]

What do you guys see as the best episodes/seasons for the Chloe/Clark dynamic and for Chloe in general? I'm missing Chloe lately (and certain aspects of!) this show :) 

[GHScorpiosRule]

15 minutes ago, amensisterfriend said:

What do you guys see as the best episodes/seasons for the Chloe/Clark dynamic and for Chloe in general? I'm missing Chloe lately (and certain aspects of!) this show :) 

For me? The mid-to end of Season 4 through 8. After that? It all went to shit until the end of ten, when she came back.

[wingster55]

Best season was definitely season 5. 

[BkWurm1]

 No season of Smallville was perfect, but I think 5 did a great job of giving everyone watching something to enjoy.  I know it was when I was most hopeful about the show, both where it was and where it would be going.   In hindsight I am very puzzled why the following season the show runners decided to move in the opposite direction of what seemed to get them those good ratings and positive buzz in season five and over the summer. 

[Chloe]

I liked the episodes when she knows his secret and he is not aware....all s5 was really good, along with s8.

S6+S7 were ok but not outstanding for their relationship. 

[BkWurm1]

I enjoyed at least the first half of six (while I lived in hope that the road blocks that was Jimmy was only temporary and the Clana was a dead horse) Six is also tainted by how they took away Chloe's power suits, leaving her in weird frumpy outfits while she propped the ego of the insecure Jimmy Olsen just so she could say she had a boyfriend.  Every time she said "Jimmy" in that aww kind of way it played to me like she was patting the head of a child that had tried really hard. 

Seven still had the Jimmy problem and added the meteor power problem but there was a lot of good stuff in it too and it built up a long list of comparisons between Lana and Chloe (where Lana did not come off looking good) that tricked me into believing there would be payoff as Clark's Lana blinders finally came off.  We had Chloe literally go to the ends of the earth for Clark and declaring her love for him to Jor-El.  Yeah, I really thought stuff was going to happen. 

Same thing in eight.  It was like every year the writers just couldn't help write Clark in the direction I wanted it to start going and then they'd wrench it off track and force in Clana or Clois instead.   

[Chloe]

9 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I enjoyed at least the first half of six (while I lived in hope that the road blocks that was Jimmy was only temporary and the Clana was a dead horse) Six is also tainted by how they took away Chloe's power suits, leaving her in weird frumpy outfits while she propped the ego of the insecure Jimmy Olsen just so she could say she had a boyfriend.  Every time she said "Jimmy" in that aww kind of way it played to me like she was patting the head of a child that had tried really hard. 

Seven still had the Jimmy problem and added the meteor power problem but there was a lot of good stuff in it too and it built up a long list of comparisons between Lana and Chloe (where Lana did not come off looking good) that tricked me into believing there would be payoff as Clark's Lana blinders finally came off.  We had Chloe literally go to the ends of the earth for Clark and declaring her love for him to Jor-El.  Yeah, I really thought stuff was going to happen. 

Same thing in eight.  It was like every year the writers just couldn't help write Clark in the direction I wanted it to start going and then they'd wrench it off track and force in Clana or Clois instead.   

Oh..Jimmy and Chloe started badly, because she basically started dating him because she felt insecure after kissing Clark. And they missed their moment. I liked Jimmy, but Chloe+Jimmy...no, please!

S8 played a lot with Clark's 3 love interests, but there was something with Chloe that made me think that they COULD go that way because of Abyss. Not at that moment, because Lana returned, but later. But Clois had to happen :( I hated Clois since the beginning. A casual love affair would have been ok, but not in a universe where Chloe exists in Clark's life.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Chloe

[GHScorpiosRule]

12 minutes ago, Chloe said:

Oh..Jimmy and Chloe started badly, because she basically started dating him because she felt insecure after kissing Clark. And they missed their moment.

I disagree with this. Chloe remembered what almost happened with them at the end of season one, and how he hot trotted back to Lana like Pavlov's dog, and didn't want to be the one, again, to agree, that the kiss meant nothing, when it so clearly meant something to both of them. Clark wasn't standing there in shock, but was fully participating. Just like he was the one who started to initiate the kiss that almost happened in Season One. So she threw in the "whole world was ending" nonsense, which Clark wasn't buying, but what else could he do? At that point, I think he knew there wasn't anything he could say that would change her mind. He should have called her on her bullshit, and said it meant something to him, but then she threw Jimmy up there-who, to me, was just protecting herself from being hurt by Clark, in case Lana came sniffing back. And she did. So I don't think it had anything to do with insecurity, but everything to do with his BDA ass choosing and mooning over Lana, and thus saving herself from yet another heartache, since they were both in a good place. Still think Clark should have fought for her, but maybe it was the first UNSELFISH thing he did for her.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

So she threw in the "whole world was ending" nonsense, which Clark wasn't buying, but what else could he do? At that point, I think he knew there wasn't anything he could say that would change her mind. He should have called her on her bullshit, and said it meant something to him, but then she threw Jimmy up there-who, to me, was just protecting herself from being hurt by Clark, in case Lana came sniffing back. And she did. So I don't think it had anything to do with insecurity, but everything to do with his BDA ass choosing and mooning over Lana, and thus saving herself from yet another heartache, since they were both in a good place. Still think Clark should have fought for her, but maybe it was the first UNSELFISH thing he did for her.

I'm not sure I agree and I'm also not sure I disagree.

The world was ending in the sense that they might never have seen each other again if Clark died or got trapped.  So I've always believed that both were motivated to not let this chance to express their feelings go by.  It was not just an end of the world thing because the feelings were not manufactured by the trauma of the night, but just pushed to be revealed. 

But I think despite Chloe being there and knowing that Clark kissed her back, she wasn't at all certain that Clark wasn't just caught up in the moment or indulging her last request.  She has years of loving him (and him giving her reasons to think he might feel they had something special beyond friendship) but she also had Clark leaving her in the middle of a date to go out into terrible weather cause Lana might have been at risk.

(I mean she pulled the friends card at the start of season two but Clark gave her reason to do it.  I tend to think that had so many other things in Clark's life not been crazy and falling apart at that moment (his dad was missing, his secret was under threat of exposure, he was developing a new power) that he wouldn't have so easily agreed to simplifying his life by going back to being just friends with Chloe.)

  The next time Chloe risked showing her feelings he gave her a kiss on the cheek and the mind addling "at least not right now".  Then it's not very long until Chloe knows his secret and now their friendship is even more important to both of them.  Had Clark not been whisked away to face Lex/Zod, I think Clark and Chloe's friendship would have kept growing at a natural pace toward that something more but I think the trauma that pushed Chloe to show Clark once again how much he meant to her (and IMO him to her vice versa) meant that neither of them had quite gotten to that mental place where they were brave enough or confident enough to own up to their feelings without the pressure of the end of the world.  The feelings for each of them were real, but the reveal got rushed and they both were afraid. 

I think even another minute after the kiss for them to process just a little bit what had just happened between them would have helped keep doubts at bay but instead they were interrupted and had to put their personal feelings instantly aside.  Neither got a chance to really gauge each other's reaction before it's all over too soon.   

Chloe especially freaked and IMO I think she really had convinced herself at that point that Clark didn't view the kiss the way she had.  I also think she probably spent the whole time Clark was missing making bargains with the universe, probably along the lines of "Please let him just come back to me safe and I promise I will never be unhappy ever again just being friends." 

Clark comes back and he expects to have a conversation about that kiss but he was clearly nervous.  No, I don't think he wanted to say it meant nothing but I think he was really uncertain still of what this change to their friendship could mean and scared of messing things up.   Arguably once Chloe knew his secret, she became as important to him as his parents and in some ways he relied on her even more.  She never denied she had feelings for Clark but she was IMO being honest that by the time he returned, she didn't expect anything from Clark no matter what her feelings were  and I'm not sure Clark was self confident enough to assume that Chloe would still be in love with him and that the end of the world situation hadn't been the cause of her amped up feelings.  He's not a narcissist.  He knows he's not perfect. 

So I don't think he unselfishly stepped out of the picture, but rather he was too uncertain of what Chloe really felt and afraid of the risk he'd be taking with their friendship, at least in that first moment when suddenly his expectations were turned upside down.  Again timing is everything.  Had Jimmy not swooped in, I think Clark might have had a chance to process and not just accept everything she said at face value.  But oddly enough, I think the longer he probably thought about it, the more he saw Jimmy as Chloe's chance at normal and Clark viewed normal as better than anything he could offer which might sound unselfish but is IMO more a case of self pity and fear.

I also don't think that Chloe threw Jimmy up in front of Clark, at least not in the sense of 'look somebody likes me' cause again I think she genuinely thought Clark wouldn't be interested and she'd kind of made her peace with it.  (Again that's where bargaining with the universe explains so much)  Still, Jimmy had to be a nice distraction and a balm to the wounds she was hiding.  Later, Jimmy became a whole hearted attempt to move on so she was not still wishing she was kissing her best friend.   

I swear they were the couple that if they could have just locked them in a cellar for a day everything would have just spilled out and their rescue party would have found them making out in the corner.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

Right @BkWurm1--you said more eloquently and clearly what I was trying to say; though I do think that in that moment, Clark may have also had an epiphany that he'd been selfish before, and so, "stepped away" if you will. Because as we saw with Lana, despite her having a boyfriend, that didn't stop Clark from pursuing her.

And yeah, I meant to say the world ending just brought out those feelings so they acted on them. We've seen when Clark isn't into a kiss. The first one we saw in "Hug" where Clark smirked when that guy told Chloe she had feelings for Clark and to kiss him, only to have his eyes bug out when she laid one on him. And then when she was under the influence of Kryptonite Gatorade in "Devoted." 

And I didn't see any of that hesitation or shock or trying to pull away from Chloe in the fifth finale.

And then there were those longing and yearning looks Clark sent Chloe in Season Six. That is, until Lana came sniffing around again.

[Chloe]

Yes, it's a bit of everything, actually.

9 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I'm not sure I agree and I'm also not sure I disagree.

The world was ending in the sense that they might never have seen each other again if Clark died or got trapped.  So I've always believed that both were motivated to not let this chance to express their feelings go by.  It was not just an end of the world thing because the feelings were not manufactured by the trauma of the night, but just pushed to be revealed. 

But I think despite Chloe being there and knowing that Clark kissed her back, she wasn't at all certain that Clark wasn't just caught up in the moment or indulging her last request.  She has years of loving him (and him giving her reasons to think he might feel they had something special beyond friendship) but she also had Clark leaving her in the middle of a date to go out into terrible weather cause Lana might have been at risk.

(I mean she pulled the friends card at the start of season two but Clark gave her reason to do it.  I tend to think that had so many other things in Clark's life not been crazy and falling apart at that moment (his dad was missing, his secret was under threat of exposure, he was developing a new power) that he wouldn't have so easily agreed to simplifying his life by going back to being just friends with Chloe.)

  The next time Chloe risked showing her feelings he gave her a kiss on the cheek and the mind addling "at least not right now".  Then it's not very long until Chloe knows his secret and now their friendship is even more important to both of them.  Had Clark not been whisked away to face Lex/Zod, I think Clark and Chloe's friendship would have kept growing at a natural pace toward that something more but I think the trauma that pushed Chloe to show Clark once again how much he meant to her (and IMO him to her vice versa) meant that neither of them had quite gotten to that mental place where they were brave enough or confident enough to own up to their feelings without the pressure of the end of the world.  The feelings for each of them were real, but the reveal got rushed and they both were afraid. 

I think even another minute after the kiss for them to process just a little bit what had just happened between them would have helped keep doubts at bay but instead they were interrupted and had to put their personal feelings instantly aside.  Neither got a chance to really gauge each other's reaction before it's all over too soon.   

Chloe especially freaked and IMO I think she really had convinced herself at that point that Clark didn't view the kiss the way she had.  I also think she probably spent the whole time Clark was missing making bargains with the universe, probably along the lines of "Please let him just come back to me safe and I promise I will never be unhappy ever again just being friends." 

Clark comes back and he expects to have a conversation about that kiss but he was clearly nervous.  No, I don't think he wanted to say it meant nothing but I think he was really uncertain still of what this change to their friendship could mean and scared of messing things up.   Arguably once Chloe knew his secret, she became as important to him as his parents and in some ways he relied on her even more.  She never denied she had feelings for Clark but she was IMO being honest that by the time he returned, she didn't expect anything from Clark no matter what her feelings were  and I'm not sure Clark was self confident enough to assume that Chloe would still be in love with him and that the end of the world situation hadn't been the cause of her amped up feelings.  He's not a narcissist.  He knows he's not perfect. 

So I don't think he unselfishly stepped out of the picture, but rather he was too uncertain of what Chloe really felt and afraid of the risk he'd be taking with their friendship, at least in that first moment when suddenly his expectations were turned upside down.  Again timing is everything.  Had Jimmy not swooped in, I think Clark might have had a chance to process and not just accept everything she said at face value.  But oddly enough, I think the longer he probably thought about it, the more he saw Jimmy as Chloe's chance at normal and Clark viewed normal as better than anything he could offer which might sound unselfish but is IMO more a case of self pity and fear.

I also don't think that Chloe threw Jimmy up in front of Clark, at least not in the sense of 'look somebody likes me' cause again I think she genuinely thought Clark wouldn't be interested and she'd kind of made her peace with it.  (Again that's where bargaining with the universe explains so much)  Still, Jimmy had to be a nice distraction and a balm to the wounds she was hiding.  Later, Jimmy became a whole hearted attempt to move on so she was not still wishing she was kissing her best friend.   

I swear they were the couple that if they could have just locked them in a cellar for a day everything would have just spilled out and their rescue party would have found them making out in the corner.  

Indeed, neither of them were brave enough to acknowledge their personal feelings. I think they wouldn't have dated immediately after the kiss, unless they have had a conversation about it, Chloe would still have acted insecure (probably less), but with Lexana happening, Clark might have started viewing Chloe more than just a friend. They would have had the opportunity to share more romantic tension (even dating) and is S8/S9 they would have finally become a couple.

15 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I disagree with this. Chloe remembered what almost happened with them at the end of season one, and how he hot trotted back to Lana like Pavlov's dog, and didn't want to be the one, again, to agree, that the kiss meant nothing, when it so clearly meant something to both of them. Clark wasn't standing there in shock, but was fully participating. Just like he was the one who started to initiate the kiss that almost happened in Season One. So she threw in the "whole world was ending" nonsense, which Clark wasn't buying, but what else could he do? At that point, I think he knew there wasn't anything he could say that would change her mind. He should have called her on her bullshit, and said it meant something to him, but then she threw Jimmy up there-who, to me, was just protecting herself from being hurt by Clark, in case Lana came sniffing back. And she did. So I don't think it had anything to do with insecurity, but everything to do with his BDA ass choosing and mooning over Lana, and thus saving herself from yet another heartache, since they were both in a good place. Still think Clark should have fought for her, but maybe it was the first UNSELFISH thing he did for her.

Chloe always had Lana's presence in consideration. But the more moments they would have shared together -intimate moments-the easier it would have been to them to acknowledge they were meant for eachother. I believe they really blocked their feelings (especially Clark).

But even with Jimmy's arch Chlark could have happened after S8. Chloe could have been the Real Lois Lane.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Chloe

[BkWurm1]

Quote

But even with Jimmy's arch Chlark could have happened after S8. Chloe could have been the Real Lois Lane.

Absolutely.  By Season 8, I was far more cynical about the Chlois theory happening (after the new show runners came in I was more a sincere wisher than believer ) but the narrative pieces were still there and piling up.  Chimmy seemed truly dead and buried even before Jimmy died.  She was never going to chose him first even if it wasn't Clark and Jimmy IMO revealed his nasty side with the break up, comments on line about her and the attempted thefts.  Then we had Chloe leaving with Davis in an attempt to save Clark and Clark really seeming to wake up to his feelings.  Not only that but Chloe was now in a situation where I wondered if she was going to have to hide her identity when she got back from running off with a serial murderer.  AND they made Lois vanish. 

If the full blown version of Chlois was ever to happen (the version where Chloe literally takes on the name Lois Lane vs the one where she keeps her name but IS Smallville's version of that character.) this was the moment.  She could have laid low using her cousin's identity for awhile, even anonymously submitting articles to the Planet under  Lois's name while everything settled down or blatantly used her missing and presumed dead cousin's name as her non de plume to honor her absence. 

In a scenario where the show kept going for more seasons, they could have had Chloe kind of reach a place where now she's moved on from her feelings while Clark is the one crushing and she's oblivious, thus restarting the romance along the more traditional lines of the comics.  It would be reasonable that Chloe/Lois would take a lot of convincing before she'd trust Clark's feelings.  And Clark probably would have tried hard to resist his feelings cause Chloe would be giving off clear signs that he'd missed out.  I would have loved watching Clark pine for a while. 

[amensisterfriend]

What did you guys think of her with Ollie? 

I have a lot of thoughts on Chloe and Chlark and how even when I try NOT to see it I honestly see Chloe as closer to my conception of Lois Lane and Smallville's Lois Lane as immensely grating and unlikable, but you all have heard them all before :) 

[AndySmith]

I liked her and Ollie, but that might have had more to do with the chemistry between Allison and Justin than the actual writing.

Edited September 21, 2016 by AndySmith

[Chloe]

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Absolutely.  By Season 8, I was far more cynical about the Chlois theory happening (after the new show runners came in I was more a sincere wisher than believer ) but the narrative pieces were still there and piling up.  Chimmy seemed truly dead and buried even before Jimmy died.  She was never going to chose him first even if it wasn't Clark and Jimmy IMO revealed his nasty side with the break up, comments on line about her and the attempted thefts.  Then we had Chloe leaving with Davis in an attempt to save Clark and Clark really seeming to wake up to his feelings.  Not only that but Chloe was now in a situation where I wondered if she was going to have to hide her identity when she got back from running off with a serial murderer.  AND they made Lois vanish. 

If the full blown version of Chlois was ever to happen (the version where Chloe literally takes on the name Lois Lane vs the one where she keeps her name but IS Smallville's version of that character.) this was the moment.  She could have laid low using her cousin's identity for awhile, even anonymously submitting articles to the Planet under  Lois's name while everything settled down or blatantly used her missing and presumed dead cousin's name as her non de plume to honor her absence. 

In a scenario where the show kept going for more seasons, they could have had Chloe kind of reach a place where now she's moved on from her feelings while Clark is the one crushing and she's oblivious, thus restarting the romance along the more traditional lines of the comics.  It would be reasonable that Chloe/Lois would take a lot of convincing before she'd trust Clark's feelings.  And Clark probably would have tried hard to resist his feelings cause Chloe would be giving off clear signs that he'd missed out.  I would have loved watching Clark pine for a while. 

Absolutely. That would have been just perfection. And they could have done that if they wanted, because Smallville was a world on its own!

And that episode when Chloe is inside Lois' body was hard to watch in my opinion.

2 hours ago, amensisterfriend said:

What did you guys think of her with Ollie? 

I have a lot of thoughts on Chloe and Chlark and how even when I try NOT to see it I honestly see Chloe as closer to my conception of Lois Lane and Smallville's Lois Lane as immensely grating and unlikable, but you all have heard them all before :) 

It was fine for me, but I'd have preferred Clark to chose Chloe.

But in a world where Clark prefers Lois over you, Ollie is a really good boyfriend!

By the way, I also shipped Ollie with Lois so to me, was a bit difficult to accept at the beginning. It was like: Lois and Clark, you are blind!! (and stupid....)

Edited September 21, 2016 by Chloe

[AndySmith]

Quote

Ollie with Lois

I have to admit, they had some good chemistry at times as well. Well, Erica and Justin.

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, AndySmith said:

I liked her and Ollie, but that might have had more to do with the chemistry between Allison and Justin than the actual writing.

Yeah, I think saw two good actors sparking off each other.  On that shallow level I could enjoy it but at the same time, I didn't like Olivers attitude about her in season 8 and in season ten he exposed his secret to the world in the Highly mistaken belief that Chloe left because his secret was too much of a burden for her to keep.  (I'm quoting) Pretty much proved to me he didn't really understand her.  

I think Chloe was really emotionally beat up in season 9 and what Oliver offered: fun, respect, affection meant a lot to her but I don't think her feelings went as deep as she'd allowed them to go for Clark since she was traumatized by Jummy's death, Davis's betrayal and Clark's abandonment and so I'm not convinced what they tried to restart in season ten was on a solid foundation.  Chloe seemed like she was only comfortable sharing part of who she was and While i do think Oliver loved her, not sure her knew her or that she even could let him in all the way.  

But again, they had some great scenes together. 

I had liked Lois with Oliver as well. First time I saw chemistry with Lois and anyone.  Oddly enough I also thought she had some with Jimmy.  Never with Clark.  Shudder.  Never with Clark  

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, doram said:

And let's face it - part of the reason why the fandom latched onto Chloe so intensely was based on Kristin Kreuk's ethnicity. I still remember the long discussions about this and how it was problematic of her to be casted to play the role of a white character. 

I intensely disagree.  It was Lana Lang's seeming "perfection" in spite of her glaring character flaws and the showrunners near obsession about her that drove people away from her character and to Chloe.  She was so clearly set up as not good for Clark in the long term. 

I've never in all my years in Smallville forums ever heard complaints about her character being wrong because of KK's very vague ethnicity (and I say vague because I was two years into that show before I even realized she probably had some asian heritage and that was only after people complained that they badly cast her parents.)  The closest I ever heard to complaints about KK's casting based on her appearance was that she wasn't a red head.  

I think that James Olsen on Supergirl does suffer from some (at the very least) racial bias (in addition to badly written lines) but this is the first I've heard anyone suggest the viewing audience rejected Lana's character due to any additional heritage.   

Now I can't speak to what kind of discussions might have gone on with the comic crowd before the TV show came out, but from viewers of the show that I interacted with from the second season on until now, I've never before heard that suggestion. 

Edited October 3, 2016 by BkWurm1

[GHScorpiosRule]

1000 times THIS! There's nothing more that I can add that @BkWurm1 didn't already state. I loathed Lana simply due to her constant self-absorption, self-pity over losing her parents as if she was the only one to suffer any kind of loss, ever. 

Then her keeping Clark as a placer whenever Whitney disappointed her, then would treat him like shit when he disappointed her, as if he, was her boyfriend.  The constant nagging to know every.single.detail about his life. You know, SEKRITS AND LIES!!! And how DARE Clark tell Alicia "everything."

Wow. Guess there were a few things I could add.

[DittyDotDot]

7 hours ago, doram said:

And let's face it - part of the reason why the fandom latched onto Chloe so intensely was based on Kristin Kreuk's ethnicity. I still remember the long discussions about this and how it was problematic of her to be casted to play the role of a white character. 

Wow. Really? Man am I glad I waited until the show was off the air for almost five years before I delved in. And, man am I glad I stayed on the periphery of fandom for this show. 

Personally, my only real problem with Lana was TPTB's propensity to pull the on-again/off-again card out for her and Clark. I think it was somewhere in S4 I decided I wanted one of them to die for real so I'd never have to see it again. But, I think Lana was an interesting character, just not one used very well. But then again, I could say that about most the characters on the show.

As to Chloe--this is the Chloe thread, after all--TBH, it took me a couple seasons to really warm up to her. I never disliked her, just didn't find her all that compelling when she was sitting around pining for Clark.  Once she learned Clark's secret and became a real ally, though, I started to really enjoy her more. I actually found her most interesting when she was running Watchtower.

Edited October 3, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, doram said:

@BkWurm1 As someone who has had this discussion, in one variation or the other, for the entire decade I watched this show - I will just say that your experience with the Smallville fandom and my experience with it are vastly different and live it at that. 

You have my deepest sympathies then. 

I still deeply question that the reason the majority of people disliked Lana had anything to do with her genetic history.   I did and still do avoid certain forums that are notorious for people with toxic opinions.  I won't ever consider those sites as a legitimate representation of the viewership or fandom.

[AndySmith]

Quote

Once she learned Clark's secret and became a real ally, though, I started to really enjoy her more.

In that respect, she is a lot like Will from Alias.

[BkWurm1]

17 minutes ago, AndySmith said:

In that respect, she is a lot like Will from Alias.

Will was a lot of fun in the second season of Alias and even at the end of season one as he was unraveling it.  I was very sorry that the ensuing story structure didn't keep him around.

[DisneyBoy]

On 02/10/2016 at 4:02 PM, doram said:

And let's face it - part of the reason why the fandom latched onto Chloe so intensely was based on Kristin Kreuk's ethnicity. I still remember the long discussions about this and how it was problematic of her to be casted to play the role of a white character. 

Yeah...I never heard a thing about people picking on her because of her race. It was always her so-called perfection at the centre of the debates on TWOP and other Superman boards.

I'm really glad I never heard or read that kind of pettiness.

Edited November 2, 2016 by DisneyBoy

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, doram said:

People picked on the fact that she had Caucasian parents. That there was a plot line about her having French ancestry. It was all very low-key and under the guise of 'they're erasing her ethnicity' but if you scratch beneath the faux-political-correctedness - it was a bunch of white girl geeks complaining that a traditionally White character had been 'racebent' & was the love interest above their blonde-haired-blue-eyed self insert. 

The show didn't write as Lana as perfect or particularly fortunate. At least not anymore perfect or fortunate than fan-favorite Chloe who went from being the Best Hacker in the World in High School to the Best Reporter in the World to a SuperHero to a SuperHero's loving wife and mother of his kid.

It would be nice to think that all this happened over a decade ago when most audience didn't know better. But it's present day - and most people don't seem able to talk about Lana Lang or Kristin Kreuk without making offensive digs about her.

I'm not sure I'd leap to the conclusion that the Chloe/Lana wars can really be summed up to racism. Every fandom seems to have character wars and those wars are never as simple as they appear to be on the surface. And, I'm not sure I would say Chloe was the clear "fan-favorite" here either. I mean, I was never involved with fandom for this show, but I'm betting there are just as many Lana fans as Chloe fans. It's just the Chloe fans seem to yell louder and gives the optical illusion there are more of them. I'm sure if I was motivated to look, I'd find there are (and were) as many Lana-centric places of the internet as Chloe-centered ones. I just find the universe, in general, is a more balanced place than we initially perceive it to be.

While I agree with you Lana was no more perfect and uber-special than Chloe in terms of writing, the thing I think they failed on with Lana as a character is they didn't give her much life outside of Clark. If she wasn't pining for Clark, her focus was on finding out what Clark was keeping from her. Granted Chloe was pretty Clark-centric at times too, but I could see her living outside of the show and with Lana, I couldn't. So, for me, I found Chloe to be a tad more rounded special snowflake of a character, but neither character was especially deep, IMO.

I think the show routinely gave Chloe more "human" stories to sink her teeth into and tended to give Lana more "action-y" stories. I think a lot of it just comes down to what people connect with more. Maybe race was an issue for some folks, but you're the first person I've ever known to talk about the characters with regards to race.

Edited November 2, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[BkWurm1]

10 hours ago, doram said:

People picked on the fact that she had Caucasian parents. That there was a plot line about her having French ancestry. It was all very low-key and under the guise of 'they're erasing her ethnicity' but if you scratch beneath the faux-political-correctedness - it was a bunch of white girl geeks complaining that a traditionally White character had been 'racebent' & was the love interest above their blonde-haired-blue-eyed self insert. 

But the complaints were why did the show think they had to pretend that Lana didn't have roots beyond European ancestry?   The calls after Henry Small showed up were that it was insulting that the show runners were trying to white wash KK.  I seriously disagree that people being upset that the actress and the audience was being treated in a demeaning way was about faux political correctness.  

Scratch beneath that surface and it was a crowd of people having the back  and supporting Lana's casting and wanting the show to do right by the character.  That complaints about Lana's white wash treatment had nothing to do with Chloe.  I remember being totally confused why they hadn't cast a better for Henry Small.  I never stopped snickering about Lana'a French witch history but that had more to do with the stupid plot line.  But while I was a huge Chloe supporter, my dislike of Lana had nothing to do with casting but the writing.  (That and I wanted a Lois Lane type character though frankly the Lois they eventually offered was a terrible fit and made me appreciate Lana more.)    

Quote

The show didn't write as Lana as perfect or particularly fortunate. At least not anymore perfect or fortunate than fan-favorite Chloe who went from being the Best Hacker in the World in High School to the Best Reporter in the World to a SuperHero to a SuperHero's loving wife and mother of his kid.

I disagree.  While the show didn't write either in a real world realistic manner, it did a much more consistent job of building on how they had always been writing Chloe.  She kept gaining skills in a generally related area , starting small and growing in ability.  She came to the show a low level hacker, got better but still had her limits and kept getting better but still got caught by the government and then she got a alien computer downloaded in her brain and after that she was the worlds best hacker.  That took nine seasons. Similarly with her reporting, she got called out on her issues as a reporter in the early seasons (including accepting shortcuts from Lionel)  got knocked down and kept working her craft until it earned her a shot to work her way up. 

Same with her investigative skills, she'd always had a bent toward it but she got better and learned to dig deeper and longer and so yeah, she kept adding to that skill set.  Even in the tenth season when suddenly Chloe could fight, she'd had nearly a decade of reasons why she should learn and a slew of people around her that could teach her.  It made sense for the evolution of the character.

But Lana acquired skills just for the demand of the plot.  She needs to be a terrible waitress, she's a terrible waitress, but no, she's actually a super duper great waitress/business woman with no training or help!  Oh, she's now an artist so good she gets into art school in France!  But we'd never seen her so much as make a stick drawing before.  She wants to learn self defense, so by the end of the episode, she's an expert kick boxer....unless the plot needed her to be damseled and then she was helpless.  She not only suddenly becomes interested in astronomy (which at least made a tiny bit of sense for once), she's GREAT at it and easily gets accepted into a college she hadn't even applied for. She was anti meteor freaks and thought they all were bad until the moment she was going to be the savior to them all and gets credit for founding Isis from the Legion of Superheroes even though she actually left before it was doing anything. Oh and she went from not in my memory even turning on a computer to having and being perfectly capable of utilizing a set up so advanced and powerful that Chloe when Brainiac was in her head was still impressed.  

Lana was instantly great and perfect at any random thing the plot required of her and usually it had nothing to do with any interests or preexisting skills, so yeah, I do think they wrote her as "perfect" at everything in that sense and in a way that was totally different from how they wrote Chloe.    There were so many reasons to find the Lana character a problem right there on screen that I see no need to try and scratch below the surface of those complaints to go looking for some other reason.  

 

s

Edited November 2, 2016 by BkWurm1

[GHScorpiosRule]

26 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

But Lana acquired skills just for the demand of the plot.  She needs to be a terrible waitress, she's a terrible waitress, but no, she's actually a super duper great waitress/business woman with no training or help!  Oh, she's now an artist so good she gets into art school in France!  But we'd never seen her so much as make a stick drawing before.  She wants to learn self defense, so by the end of the episode, she's an expert kick boxer....unless the plot needed her to be damseled and then she was helpless.  She not only suddenly becomes interested in astronomy (which at least made a tiny bit of sense for once), she's GREAT at it and easily gets accepted into a college she hadn't even applied for. She was anti meteor freaks and thought they all were bad until the moment she was going to be the savior to them all and gets credit for founding Isis from the Legion of Superheroes even though she actually left before it was doing anything. Oh and she went from not in my memory even turning on a computer to having and being perfectly capable of utilizing a set up so advanced and powerful that Chloe when Brainiac was in her head was still impressed.  

Lana was instantly great and perfect at any random thing the plot required of her and usually it had nothing to do with any interests or preexisting skills, so yeah, I do think they wrote her as "perfect" at everything in that sense and in a way that was totally different from how they wrote Chloe.    There were so many reasons to find the Lana character a problem right there on screen that I see no need to try and scratch below the surface of those complaints to go looking for some other reason.  

THIS. SO.MUCH.THIS! AAAND, she leaves Clark and becomes a super duper hero herself! And the only time I ever saw her pining after Clark was when he was with Alicia, and in the beginning of Season three when he was Red-K infected. She always had him as placeholder. Someone she knew would take her whenever she was alone and didn't have anyone. Or he'd be the one she'd go to when she had problems and/or issues with whatever guy she was with. Until the next guy.

As for Kristen's casting? I just saw it as they got who they wanted to play Lana. Not that since they cast someone who was part/half? Asian, that the character had to be Asian. If that makes sense. And I read and saw back in the day over at TWoP, that AlMiles cast her because she "was hot."

And as far as I'm concerned, Allison is the far superior actor.

[BkWurm1]

7 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

As for Kristen's casting? I just saw it as they got who they wanted to play Lana. Not that since they cast someone who was part/half? Asian, that the character had to be Asian. If that makes sense. And I read and saw back in the day over at TWoP, that AlMiles cast her because she "was hot."

I will confess to having to be informed that KK was part Asian before I could see it.  But once I did I was surprised when the dad showed up assuming that I was just bad about figuring out stuff like that.  

Quote

And I read and saw back in the day over at TWoP, that AlMiles cast her because she "was hot."

Also, they were overtly gross about how hot they thought KK was in some of their episode commentary in the early seasons.  The icky way they treated KK always had me on her side as an actor even though I didn't love (at all) Lana.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

31 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I will confess to having to be informed that KK was part Asian before I could see it.  But once I did I was surprised when the dad showed up assuming that I was just bad about figuring out stuff like that.  

Also, they were overtly gross about how hot they thought KK was in some of their episode commentary in the early seasons.  The icky way they treated KK always had me on her side as an actor even though I didn't love (at all) Lana.  

Me too! I had no idea she was part Asian!

They really were gross. ugh. It makes me feel dirty, because I preferred them as show runners as opposed to the hacks that absolutely ruined the show for me.