S13.E12: Various and Sundry Villains

[takalotti]

THEN:

 

They FINALLY showed Cas being held prisoner. However, STILL no reference to Asmodeus faking his voice, yet having the boys reference calls with Cas in the episode. Thank goodness I’m not a casual viewer.

 

NOW:

 

Dale's goofy expressions made me think of Jim Carrey. That's neither an insult nor compliment, just an observation.

 

D: We should probably loop Cas in at some point?

S: We'll fill him in when he calls. He checks in every day.

 

Wait, Casmodeus has been checking in "every day"? Since when? This whole time that Cas has been prisoner, or just sorta recently? Because if he’s been checking in "every day" this whole time, then it makes even LESS sense that S&D didn’t update Casmodeus with finding Jack during the events in The Bad Place (if they had, Asmodeus would have shown up, so we know they didn’t), or with losing Jack to another universe from Breakdown to the present (which is an educated guess since Asmodeus didn’t mention Jack being in another universe in this episode). Either they’re talking and accidentally feeding info to the enemy, or they’re not talking and should be worried about where Cas is. You can’t have it both ways, SHOW!

 

Did we know that Lucifer knew about Cas eating angel grace in the past? How did he hear about that? Oh wait, is it because Lucifer possessed Cas, so he knows all of Cas' memories up to that point in time? I don’t know why I care.

 

I didn’t think Cas was smirking about having fun taunting Lucifer. The first smirk came right after...

 

L: Okay, well, if somebody would be a pal and let me eat a little of his grace, I would have enough strength to get out of here and butcher that SONUVABITCH!

C: Well, that’s a nice, horrifying plan.

...

L: There is no 'I' in 'team', Castiel. I want you to remember that.

C: <smirk>

 

I assumed he was smirking at the irony of the most narcissistic, only cares about 'I', throws the 'team' under the bus if it doesn’t serve him, entity ever known saying such a thing.

 

The second smirk was after Lucifer talked a big talk about Asmodeus being his weakest creation, and then got called out for not being able to defeat Asmodeus and could only retort "Shut up." To me that was mostly just having the satisfaction of successfully calling bullshit on the universe's biggest bullshitter, not really enjoying some taunting, but it’s a fine line, I admit.

 

When Sam said "Do you remember Becky, in Vegas, the love spell?" was Dean's "No" a literal answer to the question meaning "No, I don’t remember this" or did he mean "No, that’s not what’s happening here because THIS is true love"? It’s not important; just idly wondering if the spell affects memory.

 

S: Okay, I think Jamie must be a witch or a demon.

D: Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. 

S: What?

D: Be nice. 'Cause she's GOT a sister ?

Me: ?

That was a great delivery.

 

Disclaimer: The answer cannot be plotonium...

Can someone explain to me why bad guys, who are about to kill a good guy, stop mid wind-up just because another good guy appears in the vicinity? I’d understand if it was law enforcement and the bad guy doesn’t want to get caught. MAYbe even a random pedestrian since they could be a witness even if the bad guy can run away. But when it's another good guy who can clearly see what bad thing the bad guy was about to do to fellow good guy yet isn’t close enough to stop the bad guy, then the bad guy should finish swinging the sledgehammer or pulling the trigger or whatever. The good guy is going to be concerned about the hurt good guy and bad guy can get away! 

 

Demon Dipper said Asmodeus has big plans for Cas. Huh? Last we heard Asmodeus was only keeping Cas (as opposed to just killing him) in case the Winchesters got out of line. Didn’t seem like he’d have any actual use for Cas. Oh well, whatever.

 

Lucifer: When he decides to do something, he does it. Doesn’t matter what the cost or who has to die, it is gonna happen 'cause that’s just the way he rolls.

 

Does he not see the hypocrisy/irony in his statement? Like how does he think that’s an argument, or really any kind of point, worth making to someone like Cas who knows how Lucifer ticks?

 

Regarding whether or not it makes sense for Rowena to be upset about Crowley dying: I know that she bargained with Sam to have him kill Crowley. But has she ever directly tried to kill Crowley? I honestly can’t remember. But if not, then MAYbe bargaining for Sam to kill Crowley was really 'There’s no way Sam can take Crowley, so really this is me trying to get Sam killed.'? Only maybe, though.

 

Haha, regarding Fifth Base. I can’t tell which of the "Dean knows what fifth base is" comments here are serious vs. joking. I think the way the scene played, Canon!Dean really didn't know what fifth base is (probably figured it out now, though). But I agree that Fanfic!Dean absolutely does ? My reading of the expressions in the scene...

 

R: Tell me, did they get to fifth base?

D: (squirming uneasily = She’s bluffing, right? Just messing with me. Do. Not. Let her see she got in my head.) There is no fifth base.

R: Oh you poor, sheltered boy.

D: (alarmed to Sam = Wait, is there really a fifth base? ~or~ Wait, what's fifth base? ~or~ Hey, I am NOT sheltered)

S: (bitchface = Not the point right now!)

D: (thoughtful = What have I been missing out on? Anyway, what is she saying now?)

 

Cas can still burn out demons. Good to know.

 

Where did Lucifer get the angel blade right after escaping his cell? It didn’t look like he got it off Dipper when he grabbed him through the bars. He didn’t seem to get close enough to take it while Cas was smiting Dipper, but maybe that’s what that little weight shift was right before Dipper dropped. But then why not take it off Dipper before opening the cell and use THAT to stab Dipper? Just because of Chekov's Little Stick?

 

DEAN: They stole a book.

BRENDA: A book? [Dean nods in confirmation. Brenda laughs] Honey, now I know you’re lying. I doubt they can even read. 

 

This had me scratching my head. The last time we saw Brenda, she was talking to the girls while one was walking around reading an open book. Wouldn’t it make more sense and serve the same purpose to say, "I DID see them with a book the other day. Just didn’t think they could actually READ."

 

DEAN: If it helps, I don’t plan on being nice about it when I do find them.

[Brenda perks up excitedly and runs a length of register tape off. She quickly writes down the girls’ location]

BRENDA: You gonna be really mean?

DEAN: Yeah.

BRENDA: ‘Cause it’s about damn time someone was. [she hands Dean the address]

 

Okay yes, that was fun and all. But what happens on Brenda's end after the boys leave town? Even assuming they disposed of the bodies and cleared the scene such that there would be no suspicion about something bad having gone down, they still disappeared. Not a big deal, people are allowed to leave town. But shouldn’t Brenda be wondering 'Huh, there was that guy who came in asking about the girls, said he wouldn’t be nice, would be really mean, and right after that the girls disappeared.' She just wanted Dean to not let them get away with their crap. She wasn’t rooting for them to be KILLED such that she’d just be cool with the coincidence. 

 

I don’t know if I’m reading too much into some expressions here, but I can’t help it. When Dean was calling out Sam for giving a page to Rowena, he seemed engaged (alert eyes) up to and when he said "Yeah, how 'bout honestly." But when Sam said he felt helpless and Dean asked "What do you mean?" he seemed to disengage (dead eyes). It almost seemed like 'I don’t wanna hear this but I’m obligated to ask.'

Expressions aside, the whole conversation had the vibe of Dean dismissing Sam's helpless feelings regarding their current situation and just wanting to get back to doing their thing, skip to the end basically. More concern about Sam just getting out of dark place rather than helping him while he’s IN his dark place. And Sam seemed disappointed to find out he was actually wrong about Dean, because he didn’t really listen.

 

I thought it was pretty clear what went down with Rowena at the end. She'd told the boys "Oh, years ago, the Grand Coven cast a binding spell limiting aspects of my magic." At the end her bindings were released from inside her (I don’t think that was grace of any kind) and then were broken. Expert Witch Level Achieved. Yes, she is a lying liar who lies, but if she was actually up to something else, why would the lie she told the boys to convince them to help her use the book include anything about bindings (which imply keeping her powers in check)? Yes, she tells Dean it's to protect herself, not make herself more powerful, but I’d think it would have made more sense for the lie to leave out anything about "bindings" and just be 'There’s a spell to protect me from an attack like that again.' Or fine, if the bindings story is part of her lie, then the reasoning she gives should tie to something the boys care about, like making her powerful enough to take on Lucifer (she hadn’t heard he was in another universe at that point in the conversation). So yeah, she mentions bindings and then we see bindings break. I don’t think the spell we saw was directly about immortality, immunity or protection at all.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, takalotti said:

Haha, regarding Fifth Base. I can’t tell which of the "Dean knows what fifth base is" comments here are serious vs. joking. I think the way the scene played, Canon!Dean really didn't know what fifth base is (probably figured it out now, though). But I agree that Fanfic!Dean absolutely does ? My reading of the expressions in the scene...

Oh I am 100% serious that Dean knows and has likely experienced 5th base. This is DEAN. That boy said he would try anything once IIRC.  So yeah, to me, he was awkward because he 1) likes 5th base and doesn't want to show it 2) Is just denying he's as wild in the sack as 5th base suggests and 3) Would never admit to Sam he's familiar with 5th base.

 

1 hour ago, takalotti said:

R: Tell me, did they get to fifth base?

D: (squirming uneasily = She’s bluffing, right? Just messing with me. Do. Not. Let her see she got in my head.) There is no fifth base.

R: Oh you poor, sheltered boy.

D: (alarmed to Sam = Wait, is there really a fifth base? ~or~ Wait, what's fifth base? ~or~ Hey, I am NOT sheltered)

S: (bitchface = Not the point right now!)

D: (thoughtful = What have I been missing out on? Anyway, what is she saying now?)

[takalotti]

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh I am 100% serious that Dean knows and has likely experienced 5th base. This is DEAN. That boy said he would try anything once IIRC.  So yeah, to me, he was awkward because he 1) likes 5th base and doesn't want to show it 2) Is just denying he's as wild in the sack as 5th base suggests and 3) Would never admit to Sam he's familiar with 5th base.

 

LOL!

Okay, I agree that his squirming could go either way.

But why that look at Sam after Rowena calls him a poor, sheltered boy? Like, just a confused "Yup, that's me so I still have no idea what she’s talking about. Hmm, what could it be, what could it be..." would have been more in line with Dean trying to deny he’s wild in the sack.

His alarmed look would make more sense if instead of calling him sheltered, Rowena had said "Hah, you’re not fooling anyone, cowboy." Then that look would mean, "Sam, don't listen to her, I don’t know what it is!" which I would easily agree was just a cover.

Sure, he'll try anything once, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he HAS... yet ?

To anyone going to a convention in the future: PLEASE ASK JENSEN TO CLARIFY!!!

Edited March 17, 2018 by takalotti

[catrox14]

I always took Rowena's saying 'poor sheltered boy' was her just being sarcastic and she fully suspects Dean was lying about it.

[takalotti]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I always took Rowena's saying 'poor sheltered boy' was her just being sarcastic and she fully suspects Dean was lying about it.

Ah, gotcha. I mean I still don’t see it that way ("Oh yes, you’re so sheltered ?" I’d agree would be sarcastic, but her line and delivery was mocking condescension to me) but now I get where you’re seeing it from.

[gonzosgirrl]

Okay, I confess. *I* don't know what fifth base is and I never even heard of it before this episode. And I've read tentacle porn. (AO3 tags have ruined me).

[DittyDotDot]

9 hours ago, takalotti said:

Wait, Casmodeus has been checking in "every day"? Since when? This whole time that Cas has been prisoner, or just sorta recently? Because if he’s been checking in "every day" this whole time, then it makes even LESS sense that S&D didn’t update Casmodeus with finding Jack during the events in The Bad Place (if they had, Asmodeus would have shown up, so we know they didn’t),

I would guess that they did update fake Cass on finding Jack and losing him again. But, why would've Asmodeus have shown up. By the time they updated Cass it would've been all over. I mean, they found Jack and almost immediately had angels on their asses then ended up in alternate universes in a very short span of time. I don't think they had time to call Cass and tell them anything in the midst of it all. In fact, I would guess Asemodeus knows everything the Winchesters know, he just learns it after the fact.

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Okay, I confess. *I* don't know what fifth base is and I never even heard of it before this episode. And I've read tentacle porn. (AO3 tags have ruined me).

Google it!

[takalotti]

4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I would guess that they did update fake Cass on finding Jack and losing him again. But, why would've Asmodeus have shown up. By the time they updated Cass it would've been all over. I mean, they found Jack and almost immediately had angels on their asses then ended up in alternate universes in a very short span of time. I don't think they had time to call Cass and tell them anything in the midst of it all. In fact, I would guess Asemodeus knows everything the Winchesters know, he just learns it after the fact.

I am incapable of believing that the boys were in Lebanon, heard Jody's tip about Jack being in Bismarck, got packed up, drove 10 hours to Bismarck, spent whatever amount of time investigating, determined Kaia was in Mankato*, drove 7 hours to Mankato, found Jack, drove around aimlessly with Jack looking for Kaia, got the hostage message via angel radio, drove to Kaia, saved Kaia, decided to drive to the Wind Caves together, and got 3 hours into their drive before the Angels showed up, without ever talking to Cas, leaving a message, or texting him "We have a lead on Jack in Bismarck," "We think he’s in Mankato now," "We found him!" After how long all three of them had been looking for Jack, and with all that downtime in the car, I find it literally unbelievable.

Give me a scene where Asmodeus curses Crowley for picking a Hell on Earth location with such terrible reception that’s he doesn’t get his messages for 2 days, THEN I’ll accept that Asmodeus could have been behind the times.

 

*I didn’t notice anything in the episode that indicated the rehab facility was in Mankato, but one of the Supernatural Wikis lists it as one of the locations for the episode. Normally I would take that with a grain of salt, but it makes a LOT more sense for the 4 of them to end up "outside Souix Falls on route 14" if they were driving from Mankato to the Wind Caves rather than from Bismarck to the Wind Caves. That made it a reasonable location to me.

 

9 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Okay, I confess. *I* don't know what fifth base is and I never even heard of it before this episode. And I've read tentacle porn. (AO3 tags have ruined me).

Well, I’d never heard the term "Fifth Base" before either, but once Rowena said it in the episode I was like "Yup, that would be a fitting term for it." So I’m betting you’ve heard of fifth base without that terminology ?

Edited March 17, 2018 by takalotti

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Google it!

I did o_O 

57 minutes ago, takalotti said:

Well, I’d never heard the term "Fifth Base" before either, but once Rowena said it in the episode I was like "Yup, that wouldn’t be a fitting term for it." So I’m betting you’ve heard of fifth base without that terminology ?

LOL! I guess Monica would call it 8th. :)

[takalotti]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

LOL! I guess Monica would call it 8th. :)

Well, she was listing erogenous zones. Doesn’t necessarily correlate to bases, 1 to 1. But I agree it wasn’t on Monica's list of 7.

 

P.S. Your quote of my text made me notice that somehow I mistyped "wouldn’t" when I meant WOULD.

Edited March 17, 2018 by takalotti

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

2 hours ago, takalotti said:

 

 

LOL! I guess Monica would call it 8th. :)

Why are you guys being coy? I'll put it under spoilers in case it offends anyone.

Spoiler

5th base is anal sex. And there are a number of ways that it can be indulged for both partners. Hence why I am 100% certain Dean has done it with whomever in whatever way on a consensual basis. Dean is pretty kinky. He wore Rhonda pink satin panties and he liked it. I'm just saying.

 

[takalotti]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why are you guys being coy? I'll put it under spoilers in case it offends anyone.

Because it’s fun to be silly ?

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, takalotti said:

Because it’s fun to be silly ?

The being silly part is not what I mean, but just saying that folks were being coy about what 5th base is as in the definition. That's what I meant. Not the rest of it, LOL. Coy away!

I'm still legit shocked that Yockey got away with 4th and "what's by is by". Yes, Rowena meant what's past is past but come on after the 5th base convo...it was really funny double entendre writing by Yockey.

[gonzosgirrl]

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why are you guys being coy? I'll put it under spoilers in case it offends anyone.

  Hide contents

5th base is anal sex. And there are a number of ways that it can be indulged for both partners. Hence why I am 100% certain Dean has done it with whomever in whatever way on a consensual basis. Dean is pretty kinky. He wore Rhonda pink satin panties and he liked it. I'm just saying.

 

Lol, I know now. I was playing with Monica's seven, Seven!, SEVEN!!!! from friends. 

Honestly hadn't heard of it when Rowena said it, and just assumed it was something to do with twins/sisters being 'extra'. Anal sex wasn't my go-to, LOL.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Lol, I know now. I was playing with Monica's seven, Seven!, SEVEN!!!! from friends. 

Oh, I got that part.  It was great. 

I still say Dean was covering up. He doesn't seem to kiss and tell anyway, at least not to Sam, not in great detail.

He talks about how hot some women are, and he flirts, but he really doesn't talk about sex or what he's ever done. Not to Sam generally because how Sam doesn't really seem to want to know the details either. 

So I think he just was like, "Oh shit. Why is she asking me about 5th base...I can't admit I know what it is, not with Sam around..not to Rowena...NO WAY". 

I can see why others see it differently though.

Edited March 17, 2018 by catrox14

[takalotti]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Lol, I know now. I was playing with Monica's seven, Seven!, SEVEN!!!! from friends. 

Honestly hadn't heard of it when Rowena said it, and just assumed it was something to do with twins/sisters being 'extra'. Anal sex wasn't my go-to, LOL.

✌️?!

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, takalotti said:

✌️?!

Perfect!

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Perfect!

Is it weird that I pictured it just as Monica did it? With a slow rise on the seven? LOL well played takalotti.

1 hour ago, takalotti said:

✌️?!

[AwesomO4000]

Late to the party (I was away) - I'm sorry I missed this discussion!

On 3/17/2018 at 1:58 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

Okay, I confess. *I* don't know what fifth base is and I never even heard of it before this episode. And I've read tentacle porn. (AO3 tags have ruined me).

Okay, crazy thing is that this is/was true for me also. Hee.

On 3/17/2018 at 12:12 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

Lol, I know now. I was playing with Monica's seven, Seven!, SEVEN!!!! from friends. 

Honestly hadn't heard of it when Rowena said it, and just assumed it was something to do with twins/sisters being 'extra'. Anal sex wasn't my go-to, LOL.

And this also! It wasn't my go to either when Rowena was talking about the sisters. I was trying to figure out how two sisters would somehow figure into a 5th base that Dean didn't already know about, and that Sam wouldn't know that Dean already knew about, because Sam accidentally saw firsthand Dean enjoying a "twin sandwich" of some sort... Hee.

So in that context, the real fifth base makes more sense than what I was imagining it was.

And Monica's erogenous zone demonstration was classic.

Edited March 20, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[The Companion]

On 2/1/2018 at 8:27 PM, Advance35 said:

I think I liked it and I definitely think it was an interesting character beat they gave to Rowena.  Something that is truly sympathetic, even after everything she's seen and done, the sheer brutality of the beating Lucifer gave Rowena has traumatized her.  I liked that we were seeing the results of a Rowena scheme gone wrong, she found two henchmen she thought would be easy to control and/or discard when it became necessary, but as usual, things took an unexpected turn and she would have been dead without Sam and Dean.

Her moment in the car with Sam was a very good scene.  Sam has always been very intuitive, he just doesn't always listen.  Him recognizing the fear that Rowena was running from and trying to guard herself against was a good way to remind the audience what Sam himself had been through.   

 

I enjoyed this scene and I love not knowing how much was manipulation. I also loved getting some fallout regarding Sam's experiences.

 

On 2/1/2018 at 8:57 PM, Jeddah said:

I am so glad that the burnt, stomped on body was not the end of Rowena. She deserved better, so I am looking forward to an even more badass Rowena. I liked her bonding with Sam. I say “Bless your heart” all the time, so I loved Rowena saying “Bless your precious heart” to Sam. 

I liked the feet stuck to the ground hex. That’s a convenient spell! The boys struggling to move was great. There has to be a lot of bloopers from that scene.

The boys fighting in the parking lot reminded me of their “Tall Tales” scuffle.

Agreed. I am glad she it wasn't the end. I am still angry about it, but I hope when she inevitably goes, she gets an active role.

The stuck to the ground scene was hilarious.

On 2/2/2018 at 7:02 AM, catrox14 said:

Rowena wasn't on a redemption path here IMO. She played Dean and Sam to get that page in the book for whatever reasons.  I honestly think at this point she might be one of the doll witch things like in Twigs and Twine and Tasha Banes. Didn't their eyes light up purple and then blue?  I think she's not intended for redemption personally.  

. . .

My point remains that Dean has been bested by females in fights before and he doesn't typically remark on it as a matter of course from a sexist perspective.  "This isn't gender studies. Women can do the job just fine. Amateurs can't". Dean is not a sexist numbnut who is embarrassed by losing to females in a fight. He wasn't teasing Sam this time like he did then. This is Dean speaking of losing to women. It's shitty writing. IMO,

I agree. I don't think it is a redemption path and I don't want it to be. She is far more interesting when you are wondering what her angle is. It's honestly what I wanted from Crowley.

Agreed this line didn't work. It wasn't Dean at all. I am learning to accept that they sometimes write Dean as a buffoon and that I probably should just ignore it because it just irritates me, Sigh.

On 2/2/2018 at 8:30 AM, Bergamot said:

He made me laugh, too -- Jensen is as good at the funny stuff as he is at everything else; but then thinking about it afterwards it was spoiled for me by the context. And it's a shame, because under other circumstances, I could have enjoyed Dean being funny and cute while under the spell: his exuberant little twirl as he comes back into the bunker, his innocent amazement that he actually had the exact book Jamie needed, his pleasure at the idea of walking back to Jamie since it was so "gooorgeous out!", the way he is so cheerful and nonchalant about knocking Sam out with one punch and promises to come back later to help him ice his face.

But I can't really enjoy it the way I would like because the show's writers think it is funny when someone is roofied by a love spell. I didn't like it in that stupid "Time for a Wedding" episode, and I didn't like it here. They could have made it some other kind of spell -- like, it didn't bother me when Dean was stoned after eating that Turduken sandwich -- but they had to make it a love spell, because I guess it's so hilarious when someone is forced by magic to kiss someone.

Is there no one who works on the show who can explain this to these writers? Maybe they would be able to understand if they imagined it with the genders switched -- would they think it was charming and funny if it was a woman being forced by a spell to kiss a man who was going to use and then kill her? Or if they are going to show this kind of thing, it can't be nothing but a funny joke; I need some acknowledgment of what is really going on.

Preach. It can't have failed to be driven home repeatedly that the consent issues are awful and problematic.

On 2/2/2018 at 9:20 AM, Bobcatkitten said:

 

Sam's scene with Rowena was wonderful and later the BM kitchen scene was just great. I love when they talk to each other. Sam lied, Dean called him on it immediately and then Sam opened up. Again, I loved the dialogue. 

I really do think the show is better when communication like this is shown.

I was happy to have Rowena back and I didn't dislike this episode despite the problems. The character scenes were good enough to outweigh the items that bugged me.