Season Four: Goren and Eames...And Hi, Mike Logan!

[GHScorpiosRule]

Still wish Van Buren could have made an appearance instead of Deakins calling her off screen. I would have liked to see how Logan and Van Buren would interact after so much time.

Well now, she did! But it was in season one's "Badge", heh. But, I know what you mean.

Edited July 18, 2014 by GHScorpiosRule

[WendyCR72]

Hee, somehow, I knew that would get a mention.  :-)

[GHScorpiosRule]

I'm through "Inert Dwarf" (omgHoraceGormanfromSVU!) - when does Logan finally pop up???

 

Also, is it my imagination or does Goren's hair get crazy wavy this season? I noticed it first during "Want."

 

"Magnificat" happened to be the one on when I heard that Lauren Bacall had died :/

 

Mike shows up in Episode 13, "Stress Position."

[WendyCR72]

So, @Chattygal, how goes the CI watching? Did you finish S4 yet?

[WendyCR72]

See, I never thought Jamey Sheridan left due to BP. While it is an inconvenience, it USUALLY is not a long-term condition. I guess maybe he just felt his 5 years (as, I assume, that is how long the initial contracts were for, especially since CBV left at the same time) were enough? Either way, in hindsight, and after seeing who came after, I'm sad JS/Deakins left.

 

I do think you'll like "In The Wee Small Hours", the 2-parter, complete with both teams and special credits. :-)

[WendyCR72]

Is Ross really that terrible? :/

 

That'll be for you to decide!  :-)  As I said, everyone is different, so you may like him. Which is great! But me? Yeah, I didn't like him. I never thought he was "for" his detectives as Deakins seemed to be. He seemed more "political", to me. But you may see Danny Ross differently.

 

I did like blink and miss Joseph Hannah in S10. He wasn't as hardline for the suits as Ross and seemed to respect G/E, even if not a true "buddy" as Deakins maybe was; he seemed a good mix of the two styles, to me.

 

As for Zoe Callas in S9, it seemed like Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio barely had anything beyond case exposition to say, so I really don't have much of an opinion about her.

[WendyCR72]

This couple in "In The Dark", the mechanic who kills homeless guys and his forgetful lover who thinks her miscarried daughter Jenny is alive, they always give me the creeps.

 

Hope the weather is much better for the rest of you. Rainy and damp and raw as hell here.

[Eolivet]

Sigh, even worse than a miscarriage, WendyCR72. I googled "stone baby" because I didn't think it sounded real. I can't even begin to imagine how that would screw with your head. At least with a miscarriage, the body is expelled and the loss becomes tangible. I wouldn't wish what happened to Rose on my worst enemy.

 

Just before this, I watched "Legacy" from S6 (?), so it was "Dupe someone into thinking a fake person is real" day. Only with a much sadder twist. Even "Faith" from S1 is less depressing than this (the lengths people will go through for people who don't exist...)

[WendyCR72]

Sigh, even worse than a miscarriage, WendyCR72. I googled "stone baby" because I didn't think it sounded real. I can't even begin to imagine how that would screw with your head. At least with a miscarriage, the body is expelled and the loss becomes tangible. I wouldn't wish what happened to Rose on my worst enemy.

 

Just before this, I watched "Legacy" from S6 (?), so it was "Dupe someone into thinking a fake person is real" day. Only with a much sadder twist. Even "Faith" from S1 is less depressing than this (the lengths people will go through for people who don't exist...)

 

Yeah, I guess an actual miscarriage would have been preferable between that and what happened, Eolivet. :-\  And, laid out as you have, CI really had a "thing" for people who didn't exist.

 

Another disturbing episode, "Magnificat" (no doubt a riff on Andrea Yates), is on now. Damn, S4 seemed even darker than usual, but next to the later seasons, it still feels like a spring meadow. LOL.

[Eolivet]

Another disturbing episode, "Magnificat" (no doubt a riff on Andrea Yates), is on now. Damn, S4 seemed even darker than usual, but next to the later seasons, it still feels like a spring meadow. LOL.

 

Some of S4 was heavy, but I think the episodes were well-done. It was later when they started getting overly dark for seemingly no reason that it started to feel over the line, to me. Contrast "Magnificat" with something like "Family Values" -- where it's not only senseless, but gratuitous (so the guy had to have an incestuous crush on his daughter, too? Really?) I feel like it's the difference between wanting to cry your eyes out and wanting to be sick. I appreciate the former -- not so much the latter.

[WendyCR72]

Some of S4 was heavy, but I think the episodes were well-done. It was later when they started getting overly dark for seemingly no reason that it started to feel over the line, to me. Contrast "Magnificat" with something like "Family Values" -- where it's not only senseless, but gratuitous (so the guy had to have an incestuous crush on his daughter, too? Really?) I feel like it's the difference between wanting to cry your eyes out and wanting to be sick. I appreciate the former -- not so much the latter.

 

True, true. I guess sensationalism was the "in" thing the older the franchise got (as SVU seems way OTT now versus its early years, too, and even the Mothership had some "out there" things in its last years). But the better writing and some "heart" early on did make all the difference. (I do like the end of "Magnificat" and how Bobby got involved for the surviving son's sake. I liked it when he seemed to give a damn versus later on, although I got why it changed.)

[WendyCR72]

There was a stone baby news item just this past summer:

 

http://gawker.com/doctors-find-38-year-old-baby-skeleton-inside-womans-bo-1625014969

 

Edit: Ugh, I keep having double-quote problems in posts lately, sorry :(

 

Oh, wow.  :-\  So since I Googled after the episode yesterday, that makes 3: India, and two other overseas countries, forget where now, but Spanish cities, if I recall, and one of those women - after finding out - opted NOT to remove it. <Shudder>

 

I guess the "stone baby" gives "In The Dark" another layer of disturbing.

 

On the topic of another episode, "Stress Position" re-aired last night, and the ending is still weird. In a real situation, I doubt Bobby's words would have saved Logan and himself from those crooked guards. But, hey, okay. LOL!

 

ETA: Regarding the stone baby phenomenon, apparently, there are apparently quite a few cases. Yikes!

[Maherjunkie]

The ending was dumb but it plays into the Goren is omnipotent theme.

[WendyCR72]

"The Unblinking Eye" is on now, the one where some actor frames an ex for the killing of his would-be fiancé. Now that I know it is truly him, it's cool that Matt Damon actually did a voice cameo.

[WendyCR72]

Cool, I did not know that! :)

 

See? This board can be educational.  :-)

[GHScorpiosRule]

"The Unblinking Eye" is on now, the one where some actor frames an ex for the killing of his would-be fiancé. Now that I know it is truly him, it's cool that Matt Damon actually did a voice cameo.

 

 

Cool, I did not know that! :)

 

 

See? This board can be educational.  :-)

 

I was the one who filled y'all in on that! And only because I'm anal when it comes to reading the credits, and you see Matt Damon playing himself at the end.

[WendyCR72]

I was the one who filled y'all in on that! And only because I'm anal when it comes to reading the credits, and you see Matt Damon playing himself at the end.

 

I would have credited you, but I had forgotten for sure who had told us. So now I know. Thanks again, GHSR!  ;-) I now wonder if Matt Damon did it as a favor to VDO as, come to find out, not only was VDO in Mystic Pizza, so was Matt Damon in a little crumb of a role! Not even sure he got a credit. But you could almost miss his blink and miss screen time. Or maybe he just liked the show.  :-)

[Eolivet]

I know she was crazy, I know she was a murderer, but damn if I don't ship Bobby with Francie Swift's Nelly in "Semi-Detached" just a little. Yes, she's obsessed with her ex and made him a keychain with human hair. But there was something so sweet about Bobby with her in this episode. I know, I'm as unhinged as she is.

 

But..."I didn't mean for you to see it." Sorry, Eames -- I don't think he was just playing her. Despite the crazy. And the human hair. And all the killing.

[WendyCR72]

I know she was crazy, I know she was a murderer, but damn if I don't ship Bobby with Francie Swift's Nelly in "Semi-Detached" just a little. Yes, she's obsessed with her ex and made him a keychain with human hair. But there was something so sweet about Bobby with her in this episode. I know, I'm as unhinged as she is.

 

But..."I didn't mean for you to see it." Sorry, Eames -- I don't think he was just playing her. Despite the crazy. And the human hair. And all the killing.

 

Oh, Eolivet. <Shakes head> Why? Why, why, WHY would you do that to poor Bobby?  LOL! I have my doubts that Bobby was just playing Susan, the creeper, too. But I'm damned glad he snapped out of...whatever fascination he had.

 

Bobby seemed to have a soft spot for female crazies, probably because his mom. But no. Susan was ick. And Nicole...well, she was a whole other planet of eeewww. And then let us not forget Leslie LeZard, much as I want to.

 

Thank goodness Bobby was forced to get some therapy!  :-P  Controversial Alex angle or not!  (Although, just for the sake of argument, if it went that route, ever, she's probably the first "normal" chick he has feelings for. Then again, we aren't privy as to how "normal" Early Bobby's girlfriends [as some were mentioned] were, so...)   :-)

[Eolivet]

 

Oh, Eolivet. <Shakes head> Why? Why, why, WHY would you do that to poor Bobby?  LOL! I have my doubts that Bobby was just playing Susan, the creeper, too. But I'm damned glad he snapped out of...whatever fascination he had.

 

Bobby seemed to have a soft spot for female crazies, probably because his mom. But no. Susan was ick. And Nicole...well, she was a whole other planet of eeewww. And then let us not forget Leslie LeZard, much as I want to.

 

I know your feelings about Nicole, WendyCR72 -- and I never saw any romantic spark with her and Bobby. She was the definition of a femme fatale. But I liked how VDO played Bobby in "Semi-Detached" with Nelly. At first, I was like "Well he's totally over-the-top!" and then as the episode went on, the line blurred more and more. His face when Nelly gave him his Academy photo (which was a good likeness, my goodness!) and then when he was trying to "break" her at the end, using a quieter, more intimate approach. It was a human side of Bobby we hadn't seen much of until then (and saw waaaaaay too much of in a couple years), but as you and others have said, Rene Balcer knew how to balance the personal without making it too melodramatic.

 

Take away Nelly's crazy, and I could see Bobby with a sweet girlfriend like her -- who was devoted to him (in a weird, non-creepy way) and who took care of him, like he had to take care of his family. Or I could be influenced by the fact that I've always liked Francie Swift's intensity (ever since she was Megan/Bobby (hee!)/Nancy on the Mothership, who killed her therapist). A lot of actors were overmatched with VDO, but she was right there with him. I think that's why I enjoyed that little subplot so much. Not that I really want Bobby with a crazy killer.

 

(I never understood the argument that Bobby had romantic feelings for Nicole Wallace. Nothing like wooing someone with stories of their childhood sexual abuse -- which he brought up every time he saw her. No, she was his Moriarty -- but nothing more. Eww!)

[Maherjunkie]

I'd like to see a showdown between Nellie and Nicole.  That would be like Freddie Krueger vs Jason.

[WendyCR72]

 

I know your feelings about Nicole, WendyCR72 -- and I never saw any romantic spark with her and Bobby. She was the definition of a femme fatale. But I liked how VDO played Bobby in "Semi-Detached" with Nelly. At first, I was like "Well he's totally over-the-top!" and then as the episode went on, the line blurred more and more. His face when Nelly gave him his Academy photo (which was a good likeness, my goodness!) and then when he was trying to "break" her at the end, using a quieter, more intimate approach. It was a human side of Bobby we hadn't seen much of until then (and saw waaaaaay too much of in a couple years), but as you and others have said, Rene Balcer knew how to balance the personal without making it too melodramatic.

 

Take away Nelly's crazy, and I could see Bobby with a sweet girlfriend like her -- who was devoted to him (in a weird, non-creepy way) and who took care of him, like he had to take care of his family. Or I could be influenced by the fact that I've always liked Francie Swift's intensity (ever since she was Megan/Bobby (hee!)/Nancy on the Mothership, who killed her therapist). A lot of actors were overmatched with VDO, but she was right there with him. I think that's why I enjoyed that little subplot so much. Not that I really want Bobby with a crazy killer.

 

(I never understood the argument that Bobby had romantic feelings for Nicole Wallace. Nothing like wooing someone with stories of their childhood sexual abuse -- which he brought up every time he saw her. No, she was his Moriarty -- but nothing more. Eww!)

 

I'll admit, I think Bobby was both repulsed by and fascinated with Nicole. I don't think Bobby had romantic feelings for her, either. But I do think Bobby wished he could "save" Nicole. Yes, she was evil and twisted. But I think Bobby was for the underdog. It's like he told the activist mother in S10, that he believed that victims should have an advocate. And that's where Bobby was torn, I think. Nicole was corrupted, but I think a part of Bobby, maybe against his own better judgment, thinks of Nicole's sexual abuse and sometimes thinks her path could have been prevented. Maybe since Bobby's own past was unstable, and he was lucky enough to choose the "right" path.

 

I do agree that Nicole was the Moriarty to his Sherlock Holmes, though!

[WendyCR72]

I'd like to see a showdown between Nellie and Nicole.  That would be like Freddie Krueger vs Jason.

 

Nicole would eat Nellie (I swore Nellie's name was Susan?) alive and spit out the bones. No, I got it. Nicole can off Nellie but one of Nellie's bones causes Nicole to choke on it and meet her maker. (Who sports a lovely tail and horns.)

 

Nicole is much more crafty than Nellie could hope to be. Nellie was too ruled by her neediness.

[Eolivet]

I can't figure out if Nelly would make an ideal disciple for Nicole or not. Nicole liked needy people, but wanted to be the caretaker, not the caretake...ee. Nicole would probably be impressed with Nelly's murderous skill, use her to off a few people and then spike the distilled water for her iron with poisonous gas.

[Donny Ketchum]

Once again, it's another motive I couldn't understand.  Why did that disabled guy commit the murder in "Inert Dwarf?"

[WendyCR72]

I can't figure out if Nelly would make an ideal disciple for Nicole or not. Nicole liked needy people, but wanted to be the caretaker, not the caretake...ee. Nicole would probably be impressed with Nelly's murderous skill, use her to off a few people and then spike the distilled water for her iron with poisonous gas.

 

I think you've summarized how it would go down perfectly, Eolivet. Nicole took care of people until she didn't, then...sayonara! On to the next victim.

 

Once again, it's another motive I couldn't understand.  Why did that disabled guy commit the murder in "Inert Dwarf?"

 

Two-fold, I think. To frame his second wife to be rid of her (hence the abuse claims) and...more scholarly reasons. His scientific hypothesis was about to be revealed as impossible to the world, and only his assistant, whom he killed, was getting an inkling, hence his cancelling his trip to that conference.

 

By killing the assistant, he could also drop out gracefully out of mourning, his lack of genius still hidden, and his reputation intact.

[Donny Ketchum]

Two-fold, I think. To frame his second wife to be rid of her (hence the abuse claims) and...more scholarly reasons. His scientific hypothesis was about to be revealed as impossible to the world, and only his assistant, whom he killed, was getting an inkling, hence his cancelling his trip to that conference.

 

By killing the assistant, he could also drop out gracefully out of mourning, his lack of genius still hidden, and his reputation intact.

So basically another pride-based reason?  I mean . . . my goodness.  These perps. . . .

Edited October 24, 2014 by Donny Ketchum

[WendyCR72]

So basically another pride-based reason?  I mean . . . my goodness.  These perps. . . .

 

Well, Donny Ketchum, you know what they say: Pride is one of the seven deadly sins!

[Eolivet]

Man, whoever was writing the season 4 titles was really on point. "Beast" and "No Exit" were exceptionally clever titles, befitting of their episodes. I hadn't seen all of "No Exit" before, and I thought it was particularly strong. Hubert Skoller was such a hapless "villain," and it was one of those few times where it seemed like the "bad guy" wasn't the actual killer. I was very impressed with Arye Gross, the actor who played him (looked him up on IMdB and he's probably guest-starred on every popular show for the past 25 years!) What a controlled performance -- the last scene made me feel like I was watching a play.

 

I wasn't that impressed with Darrell Hammond, but I've come to the conclusion that I'm prejudiced against popular actors without a theater background appearing on Law & Order CI.

[WendyCR72]

I wasn't that impressed with Darrell Hammond, but I've come to the conclusion that I'm prejudiced against popular actors without a theater background appearing on Law & Order CI.

 

Okay, so he's no great thespian, but I did think Darrell Hammond exuded "arrogant sleaze" well, which is what the role called for! Considering I only knew of him as a comic actor via SNL, I think he played that stereotype pretty well. But, yeah, thankfully, he has a steady gig as the SNL announcer since the late great Don Pardo has passed away.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I wasn't that impressed with Darrell Hammond, but I've come to the conclusion that I'm prejudiced against popular actors without a theater background appearing on Law & Order CI.

 

 

Not me. I continue to be impressed by those actors I typically know as comedians, appearing on this franchise as villains or assholes or doing a dramatic role:

 

On CI: Stephen Colbert as a murderer?! Darrell Hammond here, as ultimate sleaze. Asif Mandvi ("Inert Dwarf") (Judge Patel on Trial by Jury), and various other appearances on the mothership and SVU; Jason Jones (also from The Daily Show, as was Mandvi) as an assholish reporter on the mothership, Samantha Bee (TDS) as a talk show host who was being blackmailed (I think she was a lesbian and had had affairs with various assistants); Comedian Lewis Black turns on the mothership as a porn director and shock jock on SVU.

[Maherjunkie]

The waitress who was a patsy on "30" is also on the Daily show.

[GHScorpiosRule]

The waitress who was a patsy on "30" is also on the Daily show.

 

Yes, Kristin Schall. She was also on SVU.

[WendyCR72]

With exceptions, it seems like if an actor is on one franchise show, they must appear on all of them!

[Maherjunkie]

Another stone baby story.

 

http://jezebel.com/a-history-of-lithopedions-when-a-fetus-turns-to-stone-1654590934?utm_campaign=socialflow_jezebel_facebook&utm_source=jezebel_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

[WendyCR72]

So ion did the tail end of S3 and started S4. I think S4 was one of the creepier seasons what with "Posthumous Collection" and "Want" in the mix. The last one shown last night, "Esophoros" is blatantly ripped from the Madeline Murray-O'Hare story where she, her granddaughter, and son - all famed atheists - were murdered in 1995. (Saw their story on Forensic Files.) Obviously, some things were changed here.

 

But I don't usually recall the "ripped from the headlines" stuff being so obvious as it was here.

[WendyCR72]

UGH, the "Jenny the stone baby" episode is on.

 

But there was a good line as Goren was checking out body parts and asking the tech at the university about them: "Cat got your tongue? Because there's another one here!"

[WendyCR72]

So in watching "Stress Position" early this morning/middle of the night, I know I said this before, but I'll say it again because it bears repeating: Logan had lousy taste in girlfriends as his prison nurse girlfriend was a bitch.

 

The end was still cheesy goodness, though.

[Donny Ketchum]

I still don't get why all those guards turned on the leader, though.

[WendyCR72]

I still don't get why all those guards turned on the leader, though.

 

Well...the leader wanted them to kill Logan and Goren, and I recall one saying he wasn't going to kill cops (but I guess the others were A-OK?). So...maybe that's it. But it was flimsy.

[Maherjunkie]

Yeah, the ending had all the weight of a BH 90210 plot.  I too , wish he had ditched the nurse.

[WendyCR72]

Yeah, the ending had all the weight of a BH 90210 plot.  I too , wish he had ditched the nurse.

 

Well, maybe Mikey was just lonely, but yeah, he needed better taste. And as cheesy as that ending was, I did like that Goren and Logan's differing styles still allowed them to work together pretty well.

[Maherjunkie]

I wish Mikey had popped that guy and blamed it on a slip on the floor.

[Eolivet]

"Collective" was a little eerie, given recent current events -- with the guy being killed because the police officers thought they saw a gun.

 

And again, the "11th hour discovery" of the bottled carbon dioxide. Come on, writers -- now you're just being lazy.

 

"Bob Goren" the vampire book enthusiast cracked me up, though.

[WendyCR72]

"Bob Goren" the vampire book enthusiast cracked me up, though.

 

Funny, or more dumb, I guess. "Bob" is a part of "Bobby's" name (even if it is officially Robert), but he looked/acted more like a "Bobby" and not "Bob".

 

As I said, dumb. But it made sense in my head, I swear!  :-)

[WendyCR72]

In watching "My Good Name" very early this morning, I still like the continuity of it and what will occur with Deakins a season later, leading to his retirement. I tend to like it when shows have continuity and don't just forget all the cases once they're done, and that goes for the Mothership with "Indifference" (S1) and "Fixed (S15) and CI with "My Good Name" (S4) and "On Fire"/"The Good" (S5).

 

Seeing the consequences and results is a nice change - even if Deakins' friendship with Frank Adair would end up costing him in the end.

[Donny Ketchum]

In watching "My Good Name" very early this morning, I still like the continuity of it and what will occur with Deakins a season later, leading to his retirement. I tend to like it when shows have continuity and don't just forget all the cases once they're done, and that goes for the Mothership with "Indifference" (S1) and "Fixed" (S15) and CI with "My Good Name" (S4) and "On Fire"/"The Good" (S5).

 

Seeing the consequences and results is a nice change - even if Deakins' friendship with Frank Adair would end up costing him in the end.

Wait.  The friend Deakins puts away in this episode is responsible for his retirement in the end?

[WendyCR72]

Wait.  The friend Deakins puts away in this episode is responsible for his retirement in the end?

 

Yeah. Deakins even visited Frank when he was in prison to confront him (in one of those two S5 episodes I listed), when Frank Adair spoke of his "real" friends, and G/E found out the e-mail headers for the e-mails that got Deakins in hot water with IA (for allegedly giving a beat cop a promotion for doing something, forget the exact details) were altered by friends of Frank in one of the offices. (I do recall G/E confronting a female in that episode, and she was hostile/loyal to Frank Adair.)

[Donny Ketchum]

Yeah. Deakins even visited Frank when he was in prison to confront him (in one of those two S5 episodes I listed), when Frank Adair spoke of his "real" friends, and G/E found out the e-mail headers for the e-mails that got Deakins in hot water with IA (for allegedly giving a beat cop a promotion for doing something, forget the exact details) were altered by friends of Frank in one of the offices. (I do recall G/E confronting a female in that episode, and she was hostile/loyal to Frank Adair.)

Ah. Was it the same guy playing Frank?  I couldn't recognize him.  And why was he framing him in the first place?

[WendyCR72]

Ah. Was it the same guy playing Frank?  I couldn't recognize him.  And why was he framing him in the first place?

 

Yeah, Michael Rispoli was the actor's name and, per IMDB, was in both "My Good Name" and "On Fire". "On Fire" is the episode that Deakins confronts Adair for framing him/making it look like Deakins was a dirty cop. As for why, well...Deakins helped G/E put him away for the murder of Anya What's Her Face from "My Good Name" (that his PR advisor, the woman he was having an affair with, also assisted with). Adair blamed Deakins for the loss of his wife (you may recall her at the end of "My Good Name" when she told Frank that "Jimmy told me everything!" and walked out, and Frank asked Deakins - after his arrest - if he had friends there and Deakins turned his back on him.

 

"My Good Name" had him as a revered cop/budding good-guy politician. (Remember that Deakins told G/E that Adair wanted him on his team in the Governor's office in "My Good Name".)  Even Carver didn't believe Adair could resort to murder, etc. initially. So, I guess Adair still had people believing he was a swell guy, anyway, and got back at Deakins for Frank within the NYPD, and the way Adair talked to Deakins in prison, by his directive.