S03.E03: Josh Is a Liar

[aradia22]

I wonder if Rebecca's self-flagellating inner monologue is always Young Rebecca. Also, did she stalk Robert to get them to be together (i.e. what she did with Josh) or did she stalk him after he broke up with her? The former makes it less like he abused his position of authority. 

Giggles already with Nathaniel working on his pose all morning and George's massage offer. But seriously, what is with the lack of boundaries in this office?

"You need to keep your internal monologue internal starting... now." This is too relatable.

Oh, no... Nathaniel DID actually try to put all those plans against Josh's family into motion? Seriously questioning his judgment now.

Oh, no... It feels OOC for Rebecca to tell Paula she did bad work instead of being honest about confessing all her sins/crimes to Josh. 

Also, wait... so Paula isn't a lawyer yet? I thought she was for some reason. But maybe that was just a celebration of her getting into law school or passing a test? Sometimes I forget the details of the B and C plots.

Heather completed EVERY COURSE at her school? That seems impossible.

George makes pottery! Filing that away.

George helping Nathaniel is dumb but the line delivery from both of them (mostly George) was so amazing I still laughed. 

I love Daryl.

Heather's inspirational song was a great send-up from her flat affect to all those dumb cliches. Very Virginia O'Brien.

I don't know where I'm supposed to be on this. On the one hand, it's like Rebecca to scramble and have a bad plan. On the other hand, it feels awkward to have such juvenile plans that you know are going to fall apart once you figure out what they are. She went way too overboard with Josh's "lies." I feel like it has more of an impact if a character actually has a decent plan and then it fails anyway because there's no way to save the ship. 

And why would Paula buy all of that nonsense? 

Speaking of legalities, wouldn't this open Rebecca/The Corset up to libel?

After White Josh's "It's gonna... It's gonna be a while" that would have been a good place for a commercial break.

The envelope!

Nathaniel song! Who was that supposed to be? Usher? Drake? Ne-Yo? 100% did not see the zoo twist coming. I love this show.

Father Brah! 

"These people are not your friends. You've never had friends before, so why would you now?" Harsh.

I'm open to Young Rebecca (the manifestation of her anxiety) coming back. 

I love Nathaniel coming in to play "knight in shining armor." We're off this weird cringe train and back to dissecting tropes. I also loved the way her voice changed in that final scene. Some really smart acting choices there. I almost wish they'd gotten away so we could get back on the trope train but I'm hoping the show has a plan for next week that isn't more cringe.

[aradia22]

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I think Rebecca is obviously still locked in the narrative from grade school that she has no friends, and the reality that she DOES have friends just doesn't penetrate when she's in crisis. Or she thinks she's succeeded in fooling them.

I'm inclined to go with the second part. I think it's a combination of "I've tricked people into being my friends" because they don't know everything about me. And also, "I've tricked people into being my friends" in a manipulative way. Admittedly, she has stumbled into a lot of her friendships with Paula, Valencia, Heather, etc. Without unpacking it all, there was a lot of manipulation involved and while you could also say maybe you chalk that up to life and shared experiences and them liking her company I can see how Rebecca would think that those people aren't really her friends and couldn't be counted on in a moment of real crisis... just for those moments of drama. How long has she been living in West Covina? While on the one hand, all of these crazy experiences might have bonded them faster, I think it's easy for someone like Rebecca to not consider those relationships very deep bonds. Especially when her own self-involvement leads her to ignore people in her life (Heather/college/starfish). To some extent while other people think they're getting close to her (Valencia very early on in season 1, Josh's family) Rebecca is working a con so she can't recognize when people genuinely feel like she's their friend.

[txhorns79]

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I wonder if Rebecca's self-flagellating inner monologue is always Young Rebecca. Also, did she stalk Robert to get them to be together (i.e. what she did with Josh) or did she stalk him after he broke up with her? The former makes it less like he abused his position of authority. 

My impression was that they got together normally (i.e. no stalking), he broke it off and Rebecca was so emotionally unprepared for that moment that she broke with reality and committed arson.  What we have seen in West Covina, particularly in the time leading up to the wedding last season was Rebecca going through something similar, except for the fact that her relationship with Josh could never be a healthy one because of everything Rebecca had done.  I think of that episode with the wind, you have Rebecca kissing Nathaniel, running away and confronting "the wind."   During her confrontation with "the wind," the wind tells her that she is super weird, nothing that she did was caused by the wind, it was all her, and that she has ruined everything and is a stupid bitch.  The scene then ends with Rebecca yelling at "the wind" (i.e. nothing) as she walks off into the night.  It's extremely sad, but also gives you a good insight into just how unstable Rebecca really is.  

This pattern has now continued into this episode where we see Rebecca trying to flee the city entirely, rather than deal with the huge mess she has made. 

[Eeksquire]

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I think the only time during the series where we have seen Rebecca able to function is probably when she was on her meds, unhappy in New York.

I don't know that I would call being medicated the way she was "functional".  Kind of like when you see kids on too-high doses of ADHD and they've kind of lost the spark of their own personality.  Given Dr. Akopian's take on those drugs (didn't she refer to the NY doctor as a quack?), I think we're partly meant to believe that Rebecca was on all those drugs to fit herself into the box that would please her mother and allow her to keep up with Audra Levine.  I think part of this entire story (over the four season arc) will be a recognition that mental illness is exacerbated by trying to be something that you're not.

[aradia22]

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My impression was that they got together normally (i.e. no stalking), he broke it off and Rebecca was so emotionally unprepared for that moment that she broke with reality and committed arson.

That's what I've been thinking but something about the wording in the beginning of the episode made me question it. I assume we'll learn more in the next episode.

[KaleyFirefly]

This show is just becoming depressing, not funny.

[Bruinsfan]

On 10/29/2017 at 7:21 PM, txhorns79 said:

I think the saddest thing here is that Rebecca's actions have served to completely let Josh off the hook for what he did.  He actually did something really awful to her, but that's now entirely lost because he learned, after the fact, that Rebecca did a lot of terrible stuff to manipulate him. 

This. Josh treated Rebecca abominably and dodged the consequences by running off to the circusseminary like a scared little boy before he knew anything from her sealed files. While there were plenty of warning signs leading up to the wedding, he blithely ignored them up until the literal last minute and then jilted Rebecca in the most irresponsible manner possible. The fact that he was dodging all sorts of pre-existing bullets he was unaware of shouldn't let him off the hook about the morality of his own actions.

[DianeDobbler]

52 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

This. Josh treated Rebecca abominably and dodged the consequences by running off to the circusseminary like a scared little boy before he knew anything from her sealed files. While there were plenty of warning signs leading up to the wedding, he blithely ignored them up until the literal last minute and then jilted Rebecca in the most irresponsible manner possible. The fact that he was dodging all sorts of pre-existing bullets he was unaware of shouldn't let him off the hook about the morality of his own actions.

Josh did not blithely ignore the warning signs, nor was he unaware of them. He was in denial about what he should do about it. He was talking to Father Brah constantly, asking him leading questions. Of course Father Brah's advice was always "Talk to Rebecca." and Josh didn't do that, but unaware, Josh was not. He was aware that Rebecca was railroading a wedding theme -Josh tried to contribute to the wedding but couldn't fit in with Rebecca's pinterest vision - she even had a groom suit made for him that mimicked the one her pinterest groom had worn.

These are all adults, and so they're responsible for their own actions, BUT. I have seen comments that said "If such and such a character hadn't said this or that, or acted this way, then Rebecca would have/wouldn't have (whatever)." Well, Rebecca was freaking Josh out. Josh was taking his misgivings to Father Brah, and also somewhat to the female peer / co-coach of the team he was coaching.  Rebecca was doing one manic thing after another. Josh would feebly push back, but be railroaded again. But what he started doing was looking for a way out. He had anxiety, he has fear. But we've already seen he's a guy who avoids introspection, who doesn't like being alone with his thoughts, who dislikes confrontation.

These are not excuses, but Josh's flaws are no more egregious than Rebecca's flaws. I am convinced that if he'd talked to her before the wedding, and called it off, she'd have lashed out, felt rejected, felt that he was ripping love away from her, that once again she wasn't good enough - pretty much the same reaction she had over being left at the altar. It sucked, and she is legitimately furious that he did it the way he did it, but let's not forget that in the very same episode we saw Robert tell Rebecca to her FACE, and she burned his house down.  When Rebecca is obsessive and manic, HOW she's thwarted doesn't make a difference - it's the fact that she's been rejected that triggers her, she loses her OCD supply or whatever it is that she thinks gives meaning to her life.

Josh owes Rebecca an apology and an explanation, but I do not think he is in any way responsible for how she felt and how she reacted, simply because look at how she reacted when Robert stepped up and told her in person. She feels tremendous rage, despair and shame when she's rejected, and the manner of it doesn't seem to matter. A decent human being will explain no matter what type of issue is driving Rebecca, and I think Josh's own "journey" is getting to the point where he can confront his own issues like a grown up. Rebecca seems to want to talk Josh. I am very curious about what that conversation would look like. If he outlines why he felt anxiety about the wedding and couldn't go through with it, would she accept it or would she  to override it? I really don't know.

[Bruinsfan]

I'm not arguing that Josh is responsible for Rebecca's craziness, or that she might have reacted less extremely if he'd done right by her. I'm saying that he shouldn't be given a free pass for his own crappy actions just because good reasons for him to run like the wind came to light after the fact.

[Rinaldo]

6 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

I'm saying that he shouldn't be given a free pass for his own crappy actions

Is anyone saying he should? (That's a sincere question. I've seen variants of the above sentiment repeated here, as if it were being challenged. I happen not to have encountered any such challenges. My own assumption is that Josh will be shown in future episodes to need to face what he did.)

Edited November 7, 2017 by Rinaldo

[DianeDobbler]

Well, good reasons for him to run like the wind came to light before the fact - in fact, that's why he ran. His mounting unease as Rebecca became more and more hysterical and manic. What happened AFTER the fact is he felt less guilty. That's where he is still wrong. It doesn't matter if he was anxious beforehand and had every reason to call off the wedding. It doesn't matter if afterwards he feels validated about calling off the wedding. And it doesn't matter that Rebecca is "crazy" - that doesn't excuse him from talking to her himself, no matter how she would have reacted. The show knows this.  But, avoiding guilt, avoiding responsibility, and avoiding confrontation has been Josh's issue since day one. I think it showed the first day we met him when he was leaving NYC because it was too hard. So I guess I'm just agreeing with Rinaldo - nobody's giving him a free pass. Father Brah wanted him to talk to Rebecca. Rebecca wanted him to talk to Rebecca. This season, his friends raised the point that he still hadn't talked to Rebecca. His avoidance of responsibility and confrontation is a plot driver for the show, though, so I doubt it's going to be resolved any time soon. I am really curious to see what that conversation would look like - if they didn't talk at each other.

I haven't seen anyone giving Josh a free pass either. However, I did want to point out that he wasn't oblivious through all of last season. He was reading the warning signs loud and clear. What he wasn't doing was dealing with them maturely. Josh is as motivated by his lack of awareness and his own issues as every other character on CEG.

Edited November 7, 2017 by DianeDobbler

[possibilities]

One thing I love about this show is that, while it's centered on Rebecca, a character who is clearly bonkers, none of the people around her are without blame for their own involvement in her crazy, and I think the show understands that. They're not saying "look at this crazy person who is destroying the lives of all the innocent people around her"-- they are all completely responsible for their own crap, and their participation in her shenanigans are really all on them. Paula, Josh, everyone-- their susceptibility to her schemes is because of their own problems, and I am hoping the show will deal with the ripples caused if Rebecca gets herself together, and stops acting out. Because what will any of them do then, with their own tendencies to be messed up? In any group like this, one person leaving, or getting sober or sane, will force everyone to reckon with their issues, because they can't pretend Rebecca is the source of their drama anymore.

[Bruinsfan]

I think Darryl's issues with Nathaniel at work and White Josh at home are pretty independent of Rebecca's influence; there's not much that he (or White Josh) will have to reassess if she gets her act together. Josh, Paula, and possibly Nathaniel would all be in for major changes to how they conduct their lives though.

[dubbel zout]

9 hours ago, possibilities said:

One thing I love about this show is that, while it's centered on Rebecca, a character who is clearly bonkers, none of the people around her are without blame for their own involvement in her crazy, and I think the show understands that.

It's like mass hysteria: One goes and they all go. Rebecca's crazy seems to free everyone else's.