S03.E01: Josh's Ex-Girlfriend Wants Revenge

[aradia22]

Quote

I just can't see them as an endgame couple, they have successfully subverted romantic comedy tropes with the Josh and Greg relationships and I hope they do the same with Nathaniel.

A lot of shows with straight female protagonists usually involve an endgame couple. It's impossible to say exactly who it will be because so many of these shows also involve dragging things along for season after season so you have to put reasons they can't be together (which are sometimes convincing arguments for why they shouldn't be together) and you have to throw in other love interests (who are sometimes more compelling to the audience). Doing a quick brain scan, I'd say First Guy Wins usually applies http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FirstGirlWins or at least first guy she had a crush on, if another guy was actually her first boyfriend. Basically, the guy who's around the longest. But though it would complete her "crazy ex girlfriend" arc we know so many reasons why Josh and Rebecca are wrong for each other and they've done too much work to torpedo that potential relationship (despite all the glowy, sparkly feelings from season 1).  

I feel like if Rebecca got to a healthier place, it would be satisfying for her to end up with Greg when they're both in better places than they started in the beginning of the series. And you'd arguably get a First Guy sense of things since we did meet him in the pilot. But it doesn't feel as trope-y and aside for some brief flickers, Rebecca has never been that into him. Falling for the second choice like Blair and Chuck in Gossip Girl usually happens when they sell that second choice hard. The show still keeps going back to Josh. 

Nathaniel is interesting because he seems like the prize. Sometimes your female protagonist just gets to stumble on a prize. Like James Marsden on 30 Rock or Coop on Charmed. A handsome guy who isn't without flaws but... there's a bit of wish fulfillment and things are just a little easier that they were with previous love interests. A prize can be endgame as a reward for a female protagonist and a way for them to end the series happy unless the writers change their minds or there's a renewal in which case the relationship may be torpedoed out of nowhere with a big secret or major transgression. 

Barring any new guys entering the frame, the last option is leaving your female protagonist alone at the end of the series. This can be written positively or negatively. The potential for a new relationship can be there or she can decide to be single. Again, it can be written positively or negatively either way. 

Examples in my head as I'm writing this: Gossip Girl, Charmed, Ugly Betty, 30 Rock, The Mindy Project, Drop Dead Diva, Xena, 500 Days of Summer, Gilmore Girls, iZombie, Sex and the City

[Eeksquire]

I love this show, but I could do without the terrible faux French accent bits.  Revahnge and enghaghed and whatnot... it's not funny and serves no purpose.  

That said, I'm so glad there's a new episode on tonight - I need it after this week!

[Rinaldo]

I find those bad-French bits funny. I've known people who like to signal that they're sophisticated by throwing in bits of pseudo-French, and they get it all wrong.

[aradia22]

I think the bad French is intentional. Rebecca specifically says she knows vengeance is the right word but she likes the weird way she pronounces revenge better. It's like her trying to force romance. She's just a dramatic character. 

The thing that gets me is the scatalogical/gross out humor. Crazy Ex-Girlfriend isn't too bad with it but it's just a trend I'm not into. It's not edgy or subversive or empowering. It's childish. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

[LadyAmalthea]

On 10/21/2017 at 6:20 AM, aradia22 said:

A lot of shows with straight female protagonists usually involve an endgame couple. It's impossible to say exactly who it will be because so many of these shows also involve dragging things along for season after season so you have to put reasons they can't be together (which are sometimes convincing arguments for why they shouldn't be together) and you have to throw in other love interests (who are sometimes more compelling to the audience). Doing a quick brain scan, I'd say First Guy Wins usually applies http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FirstGirlWins or at least first guy she had a crush on, if another guy was actually her first boyfriend. Basically, the guy who's around the longest. But though it would complete her "crazy ex girlfriend" arc we know so many reasons why Josh and Rebecca are wrong for each other and they've done too much work to torpedo that potential relationship (despite all the glowy, sparkly feelings from season 1).  

The fact that most shows include an endgame couple perhaps means this show shouldn't - the endgame should be Rebecca/Mental health, and whether that comes with a guy attached is less important, imo.  They could easily have Rebecca end the series leaving all of these unhealthy relationships behind her, ready and open to something more meaningful and satisfying, or they could even introduce someone stable and healthy in season 4 to be endgame.

On 10/21/2017 at 6:20 AM, aradia22 said:

Nathaniel is interesting because he seems like the prize. Sometimes your female protagonist just gets to stumble on a prize. Like James Marsden on 30 Rock or Coop on Charmed. A handsome guy who isn't without flaws but... there's a bit of wish fulfillment and things are just a little easier that they were with previous love interests. A prize can be endgame as a reward for a female protagonist and a way for them to end the series happy unless the writers change their minds or there's a renewal in which case the relationship may be torpedoed out of nowhere with a big secret or major transgression. 

Is Nathaniel such a prize though?  He's handsome and rich, but is a pretty terrible, screwed up person who Rebecca doesn't seem remotely interested in other than a fleeting physical attraction. As rewards go he falls pretty short, if anything it's like-meets-like since Rebecca can be pretty terrible herself, or the classic bad boy trying to redeem himself to win the heroine's love which played straight is pretty pedestrian.  

[Rinaldo]

I always got the message that one of the things this show was trying to do was get us to stop thinking in terms like "endgame."

[dubbel zout]

8 hours ago, LadyAmalthea said:

Is Nathaniel such a prize though? 

No. No man Rebecca has been with has been anywhere near a prize. Of course, Rebecca herself is in no way ready for a healthy relationship, so it cuts both ways.

[aradia22]

Quote

Is Nathaniel such a prize though?  He's handsome and rich, but is a pretty terrible, screwed up person who Rebecca doesn't seem remotely interested in other than a fleeting physical attraction. As rewards go he falls pretty short, if anything it's like-meets-like since Rebecca can be pretty terrible herself, or the classic bad boy trying to redeem himself to win the heroine's love which played straight is pretty pedestrian. 

He could be a decoy. Or at least the option could be open depending on how many seasons the show gets. For some reason I thought this was the last season? I'm thinking Tony on Drop Dead Diva. Oh, and I never underestimate the ability of a show to do a 180 on a character or a retcon to blur their flaws in the audience's minds. Especially when it comes to selling a romantic relationship.

@Rinaldo I have to disagree. While the show critiques and dismantles tropes and ideologies, I think Rebecca's aggressive pursuit of guys still has your brain focused on an endgame couple. And while they show Rebecca in crisis, they haven't really shown her committed to her mental health journey or creating a fulfilling life unrelated to a man for an extended period of time. She has a group of female friends now but they still spend a lot of time on her shenanigans. And is she really going to be happy spending the rest of her life in West Covina working for Darrell/Nathaniel's firm? I'm not saying the show won't or shouldn't end with Rebecca single. I think a possible arc ending that would feel natural is her operating a musical theater camp over the summer. But I don't think they've been committed enough to doing the groundwork... yet.

[Rinaldo]

31 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

@Rinaldo I have to disagree. While the show critiques and dismantles tropes and ideologies, I think Rebecca's aggressive pursuit of guys still has your brain focused on an endgame couple.

Then we disagree. Which is fine, of course, and what the forums are all about. I especially disagree about what my brain is focused on.

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, aradia22 said:

For some reason I thought this was the last season?

Rachel has said she envisions four seasons for this show. While the ratings are low, they're pretty much on par with last season so I think they'll get that fourth season to wrap it up.

The discussion of end games/end game tropes is really interesting.  I've read a lot about how people want to subvert the romcom and it usually makes me roll my eyes.  Execute well.  Execute fresh.  But I love the comfort of romcoms and usually find attempts to subvert them annoying.  I think this is the one show where they do a really good job at it where I would believe Rebecca being alone is the best option because of how they've written the relationships. They keep coming back to Josh because he's her obsession but I don't know that they've ever written the relationship seriously.  There's always something hidden between them.  I do feel they pushed Greg as a potential partner a little harder in that they took them more seriously by virtue of the fact that he saw through her.  There was an honesty to them that I felt was missing with Josh and Rebecca.  That said, they were, as he said, a "shit show." Despite the two of them being grounded in reality, I'm not sure they could swing back to them without some work.  Would Santino come for that? 

Nathaniel does seem like a prize on the surface--rich, handsome and yet their relationship is built on Rebecca's darkest impulses.

We've seen stalkery behavior in romcoms before.  And wacky behavior.  But usually it's written off as quirky.  This is the one show that actually acknowledges the mental instability of their characters which is much harder to just write off later.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Irlandesa

[LadyAmalthea]

I think this season will be rock bottom for Rebecca, and I would like to see season 4 about her building herself back up, finally taking Dr Akopian's advice to heart that "it's not about the guys" and working towards stability.  My ultimate endgame would be doubling down on the art imitating life, with a flash-forward to a Rebecca having written a Broadway musical based on her experiences, leaving it open as to her romantic life, letting the audience read into it what they will, because it's not the focus, and shouldn't be.   

[DianeDobbler]

When Paula insisted her husband Steve pass increasingly arduous lie detector tests, I was annoyed. Steve cheated, but he told her about it probably less than 24-hours later. He's not a liar. The issue between them isn't trust. The issue is why whatever space opened between them that left room for him to cheat with Tanya and her to very nearly cheat with the client. I think that issue is not making time for each other, their energy being consumed by managing the family, and mistiming with their separate interests (him with singing, her with law). He had lost his connection with her, and when she didn't show for the barber shop singing thing, he felt un-seen. Her thing is she's bored out of her mind, channeled a lot of it into Rebecca, re-channeled it into the study of law, and didn't circle back to connect with him. I like Steve and I like Paula, and think they'll be fine. However, IMO, she can trust him.

[SomeTameGazelle]

On 11/10/2017 at 0:37 AM, DianeDobbler said:

When Paula insisted her husband Steve pass increasingly arduous lie detector tests, I was annoyed. Steve cheated, but he told her about it probably less than 24-hours later. He's not a liar. The issue between them isn't trust.

I didn't think that the suggestion was that Scott wasn't trustworthy, but that Paula did not really feel ready to take him back. As I recall she gave him the lie detector test and even though he clearly passed easily she was still looking for reasons to put him off. It wasn't about the test, it was about Paula's issues at that point.