Past Seasons: Classic Who

[Llywela]

I love The Chase rather fiercely, but not for reasons of plot, because it doesn't have much of one - although I do think that a concept like this or The Daleks' Masterplan could make for a different sort of seasonal arc if re-invented for the modern show. I really love the way the Doctor, Ian, Barbara and Vicki have made themselves into such a solid family unit aboard the TARDIS - I love the domesticity of their scenes together. Hanging out enjoying a bit of downtime in the TARDIS. The Doctor and Barbara sunbathing together. Vicki dragging Ian off to explore and everything about their banter - Ian can be such a dork. The panic when they realise Vicki has been left behind. All of them being so caught up in the chase that it doesn't even occur to them that New York 1966 is the closest Ian and Barbara have ever come to being home. Steven's reaction to having company after two years of total isolation. There's just so much to enjoy about the characters, I barely even notice the plot or lack thereof!

[Joe]

The prehistory scenes of An Unearthly Child? However, the actors are awfully pale...

 

I can't think of any other stories that are set in Africa. Even the future history of the Virgin books have Africa becoming a superpower, but don't I don't think anything is actually set there.

[tv-talk]

Just finished City of Death- wow it must have been over 20 years since I've seen that one! All in all a very likable episode with 4 being his usual humorous self overlaid upon the general campiness of the era- had to love how 70% of the scenes involved dialogue between main characters while silent henchman were in background with guns pointed. Duggan was a nice minor character, some good humor there and then of course the fate of human race being decided by something as simplistic as punching the alien was great. It's also funny how the henchman stood by non-plussed listening to their boss consistently reveal he was in fact an alien bent on destroying all of humanity. Those are some loyal employees!

 

The real surprise treat of course, which I'd utterly forgotten, was John Cleese in cameo as an art snob! How perfect was that? 

 

Great stuff all around.

 

One last aspect that I feel is kind of missing from much of NuWho is the often strange and somewhat uncomfortable ways in which the Doctor takes leave of people and situations at the end of serials. The abrupt and seemingly unfinished goodbyes where you just wait for the theme music to break out as the random earthling or whomever is left standing there confused. Always loved that.

Edited January 28, 2015 by tv-talk

[benteen]

City of Death was a lot of fun and when you have Julian Glover in it, you can't go wrong.  Agreed about Duggan, he was a fun character.  There's also the line in it when the Doctor tells Glover's wife "You're a beautiful woman, probably."

 

You're right about the abrupt good-byes.  Sometimes you don't even get them but it's a great example about how the Doctor comes and goes from the lives of the people he meets.

Edited January 29, 2015 by benteen

[Llywela]

About The Ark in Space... the entirety of human knowledge on a space station built in the 30th century is stored on microfilm? How very... 1970s ... of them

Well, yes, but at the time the show was made, that was the height of media storage technology - they couldn't know what the future held, any more than today's show makers can. They could have invented something that sounded more futuristic, perhaps, but sometimes it's easiest and safest to go with something your audience will recognise, no explanation required - and if they had made something up, we'd still be laughing at them because it would still sound absurd based on our knowledge of how technology has developed since. Come back in 20 years time, and the way the future is represented in today's show will look just as dated. That's just the nature of the beast.

 

The Ark in Space is one of my all-time favourite Doctor Who stories. Love it to bits.

[Sandman87]

Not just the microfilm; if you look closely you can see that their guns are Uzis.

The real surprise treat of course, which I'd utterly forgotten, was John Cleese in cameo as an art snob! How perfect was that?

Maybe that was a sly reference to his role as a director at Sotheby's in The Magic Christian.

[Pete Martell]

No missing episodes, sadly, but some lost Desert Island Disc recordings have been found, including Diana Rigg and the one and only William Hartnell.

 

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-01-31/doctor-who-star-william-hartnells-desert-island-discs-recording-found-by-the-bbc

 

The excerpt of Bill's episode.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p009y3yj

 

I wasn't expecting his voice to be so clear and strong.

 

This is one of his few audio interviews available isn't it?

[Llywela]

This is one of his few audio interviews available isn't it?

Yes. There is only one other known interview with Hartnell, recorded in his dressing room behind the scenes of a play or panto he was appearing in - he's less relaxed in that one, probably wondering how long this news person is going to keep him talking and when he can get back to preparing to go on stage. It's on one of his DVD releases, but I can't remember which one - one of the last ones to be released, because the clip was only unearthed a couple of years ago. Maybe Tenth Planet?

 

He sounds so different in this interview - makes you realise how much of the Doctor is a carefully crafted performance, right down to the voice.

[Pete Martell]

Was it Adventure in Space and Time? No, I think it was Tenth Planet. You're right. 

 

It's a little hard to hear (I'll have to listen again) but it was nice to just hear him casually talking about his interests and his life. I'm so used to only ever hearing about him as a terrible person or as this extremely ill, lost man. This is a chance at another look.

 

Apparently a fan recorded it. I can't imagine where Who fans would be without fans and their tape recorders 50 years ago.

[Llywela]

I'm so used to only ever hearing about him as a terrible person or as this extremely ill, lost man. This is a chance at another look.

 

Apparently a fan recorded it. I can't imagine where Who fans would be without fans and their tape recorders 50 years ago.

And most of those 'he was a terrible person'  or 'he was an extremely ill, lost man' reports come from people who only knew him slightly, toward the end of his career when he was under tremendous strain. They are usually refuted by the people who knew him best, away from the pressures of the set. And because there is so little evidence, because he isn't here to either defend or incriminate himself, we can never know the truth.

 

I've come to know the early years of the show so well via recons/audios of the missing episodes, I hate to imagine trying to watch it without them, the gaping holes it would leave - hooray for the fans!

[tv-talk]

So...I'm about halfway thru the Shada novelization and I love it! Reminds me so much of Hitchhikers as well as Red Dwarf which are some of my favs...so thanks much for mentioning this book which I had no idea about. So just to confirm, this episode was never actually made? What is the medium you all are mentioning where Baker narrated or had a part? I'm completely unaware of all these avenues outside the actual tv serials, so any recs as far as books etc are greatly appreciated!

 

Read Ark in Space recently and liked that too though Shada is another level of goodness

[Llywela]

So...I'm about halfway thru the Shada novelization and I love it! Reminds me so much of Hitchhikers as well as Red Dwarf which are some of my favs...so thanks much for mentioning this book which I had no idea about. So just to confirm, this episode was never actually made? What is the medium you all are mentioning where Baker narrated or had a part? I'm completely unaware of all these avenues outside the actual tv serials, so any recs as far as books etc are greatly appreciated!

Shada was written as the final serial of season 17, but about halfway through production there was a strike, which meant the story couldn't be completed. They recorded all the location scenes, because location shooting was always done before the studio shoots, and they also got in the first of the three scheduled studio shoots before the strike stopped play. There were a few attempts made to re-mount the story, but for various reasons it never happened and the project was formally shelved.

 

So to answer your question, about 50% of the intended content of the story was recorded, but never aired. In 1992 the available footage was released on VHS with linking narration by Tom Baker to fill in the gaps, and a very detailed booklet about the production also included in the package. This version was also released on DVD a couple of years ago (minus the booklet, sadly).

 

In 2003 Big Finish reworked the story for Paul McGann's Doctor as an audio play (still with Romana, but re-written for the 8th Doctor because Tom Baker didn't want to do it, he only got involved with Big Finish many years later). And Ian Levine privately commissioned an animated version of the original story, using the available soundtrack and voice actors to fill in the gap, but that hasn't ever been commercially released. So in some regards, Shada is the Doctor Who story with the most versions out there, despite never being aired as originally intended!

 

You enjoyed The Ark in Space novelisation as well? I'm pleased - I really love that story. The novelisation is written in the house style of the Target novelisations of the time, but Ian Marter did an excellent job for his first writing effort. Gareth Roberts' Shada novelisation was free of those constraints and deliberately modelled on Douglas Adams' style, as he wrote the screenplay.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Llywela

[Sandman87]

Some of the recent serials on Retro:

 

The Talons of Weng-Chiang - Hilariously racist. I wonder to what extent it was influenced by Sax Rohmer's Fu Manchu novels. Also I suspect that the episode provided at least some of the inspiration for The Vanishing Conjurer from Games Workshop. Not only is the story similar (investigating disappearances occurring around a sinister Chinese stage magician), but the cover picture of the bad guy looks almost exactly like Li H'sen Chang as played by John Bennett.

 

The Horror of Fang Rock - This one struck me as a little unusual because all of the human characters other than Leela died. Usually there's at least one survivor to symbolize the Doctor's success. I was amused by the scene at the very end where the Doctor brings himself to a halt by running up against the lighthouse's boiler, and yet somehow managed to avoid getting third degree burns on his hands and face.

 

The Invisible Enemy - The enlarged version of the virus Nucleus was a giant shrimp! I imagine that there was a shrimp costume laying around the BBC studios when the episodes were taped. Also, when they looked at Leela's blood under a microscope, it had peanuts in it. This episode marks the beginning of what I consider the Golden Age of the show: Tom Baker as the Doctor + Leela + K-9.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Sandman87

[benteen]

I saw Talons and Horror recently.  Talons was great but I think I enjoyed Horror even more.

 

Speaking of Big Finish, Jago and Litefoot have been a regular series of audio adventures for nearly a decade.

[Llywela]

I enjoyed Talons when I watched it (only the once so far, don't have that one on DVD yet). Yes, it employs certain stereotypes that don't sit well in today's cultural climate, and yes it features white actors in 'yellow-face', which again wouldn't be acceptable today, but that doesn't make it racist. It simply belongs to a different age. The story itself is a classic - it's great fun, full of interesting, engaging characters, and draws on a number of literary traditions for inspiration.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Llywela

[Sandman87]

From tonight's story Image of the Fendahl:

Doctor: "You'll only have three minutes. Remember, (holds up four fingers) three minutes."

[Joe]

I don't like Talons. No, it's not the yellowface, anything like that. I just don't like it. Part of it is not liking Pygmalion stories, but... I don't know. I also don't like Genesis. It only had about three good minutes in the whole story.

[benteen]

From tonight's story Image of the Fendahl:

Doctor: "You'll only have three minutes. Remember, (holds up four fingers) three minutes."

 

Benedict Cumberbatch's mom is in this serial.  She mentions in the DVD commentary that this was the first job she took after he was born.

[tv-talk]

White actors in yellow-face and using absurd supposedly asian accents is racist and demeaning. It doesnt mean the producers nor actors necessarily had bad intent or were bad people, but that's ugly stuff no matter if it's just a "product of the time." Which incidentally was not 1950 but 1977- barely excusable, I mean since that serial was made how many tv shows and movies have actually used yellowface and terrible accents like that? That production was a throwback to an era that had already passed.

 

As for the story itself, I appreciate it's in tradition of DrWho as far as it being a period piece set entirely on Earth (iirc) and it's got some good characters- but for me personally I always lean a bit more towards the more "sci-fi" based episodes so I probably wont watch it again (tho maybe I should since I'm being harsh on it).

[Sandman87]

I'm willing to cut them some slack for the racism thing because I already knew that racial sensitivity in the UK wasn't at the same level as the US back in 1977. That was coincidentally the same year that I took a trip there with my grandparents and was somewhat shocked to see the Warner Bros. cartoon All This and Rabbit Stew on one of the broadcast stations.

[Llywela]

I mean since that serial was made how many tv shows and movies have actually used [...] terrible accents like that?

I don't want to get drawn into a debate about racism in this thread, especially given the very different racial histories and experiences on the different sides of the Atlantic which we really shouldn't project onto one another, but I will say that I hear terrible fake accents in film and TV all the time, to this day (Kevin Costner in Robin Hood, Juliet Landeau in Buffy, to name just two). Fake accents are part of any actor's repertoire, considered socially acceptable when it's a white person impersonating a white person's accent but playing a part in just the same way, not always terribly well, and often employing very lazy (and inaccurate) stereotypes in the process. I see exaggerated fake accents and stereotypes of the Welsh in all sorts of places - including Doctor Who. We're a conquered and subjugated nation that the conquering nation likes to mock and has done for centuries. Where do you draw the line?

 

I'm not explaining myself very well. I just mean, for a story like Talons I try to look past any deficiencies in the production to the story and characters that lie behind. I find Leela an absolute delight, and Jago and Litefoot are also charming.

 

Thinking about it, I wish the same 'look for the good' techniques worked on Clara's era - maybe in a few years!

Edited February 8, 2015 by Llywela

[Lokiberry]

I loved Talons. It's part of an era that I've always considered a golden age of Doctor Who: the Tom Baker era that started with Sarah Jane and ran though the first Romana. The writing was great, the companions were wonderful, and nearly every episode was a a delight. IMHO, the show was never that consistanly good again until NuWho.

 

The Leela era was like the high point of the high point; the crown jewels, if you will. She was the perfect compliment to Four's over-the-top eccentricity. The stories during this time were daring, and wild, and fearless (much like Leela herself), and unlike anything I'd seen before from the show. I'd also recommend Robots of Death; not only is it a great story, but it's also gorgeous to look at.

[benteen]

The set production for Robots of Death was a top-notch.  Without a doubt.

[Llywela]

The set production for Robots of Death was a top-notch.  Without a doubt.

Plus fantastic character writing - The Face of Evil followed by Robots of Death make a brilliant introduction to Leela with almost modern-style character establishment, development and continuity, the one following on from the other. Both written by Chris Boucher, of course - I'm not sure any other writer understood Leela the way he did, although they mostly did their best.

[benteen]

Yeah, he definitely brought his own creation to life better than anyone else.  Fang Rock (not written by Boucher) was also another good episode for her.  Boucher also wrote a book sequel to Robots of Death that's available and did a Kaldor City audio series.

Edited February 8, 2015 by benteen

[SnideAsides]

The Time Meddler is quite good, isn't it? It felt weird at first to watch a story without Ian and Barbara (although I do like Steven, and Vicki's definitely growing on me), but the story itself is pretty great, even if that first cliffhanger felt like they went a bit too far past the real "oh shit" moment of finding the watch and/or the gramophone. It's also really visually impressive considering most of it was filmed in the studio - it really doesn't look like it compared to other stories so far.

 

On the other hand, the season three premiere Galaxy 4 is not as wonderful. The idea behind it is sound - a satire about how pretty people typically get given the benefit of the doubt over those with a less conventional appearance - but it's quite clunky a lot of the time. It doesn't help that three out of four episodes are missing - up until this point there's only eleven missing episodes and they're all in historical stories - but if I'm able to enjoy The Crusade or The Reign of Terror with their missing episodes I should be able to enjoy this. And I didn't.

[SnideAsides]

Mission to the Unknown... meh. Visually stunning? Yes. Exciting? Yes. What I came here to watch? No. On the other hand, it was Verity Lambert's last story, so that's a thing worth celebrating.

 

The Myth Makers... not so bad. I love the story of the Trojan Horse and of course it was the Doctor who gave them the idea, and I love that it started as a historical comedy like The Romans or The Crusade before descending into total anarchy, and Troilan was pretty damn cute, but something felt kind of off. I'm guessing it was the changeover to a new producer, which... I mean, we criticise the Moffat/Davies switch, but going from Lambert to Wiles is probably even worse. The first two seasons were quite good, but Wiles's era is weirdly regressive - he helmed Galaxy 4 (women are evil!) while Lambert was busy with Mission to the Unknown, but in the next little bit you've got Vicki basically being married off in The Myth Makers (allegedly because Maureen O'Brien pointed out the plot holes in Galaxy 4), The Daleks' Master Plan (where two female companions die while the man survives), The Ark (where the subtext is basically "black people can't govern", not coincidentally right at the time when the British Empire was crumbling), and The Celestial Toymaker (Yellow Peril undertones, plus a cameo appearance by The N Word). So... yeah. Not looking forward to this next little bit, but let's hope I can find something to enjoy.

[Llywela]

Mission to the Unknown... meh. Visually stunning? Yes. Exciting? Yes. What I came here to watch? No. On the other hand, it was Verity Lambert's last story, so that's a thing worth celebrating.

 

The Myth Makers... not so bad. I love the story of the Trojan Horse and of course it was the Doctor who gave them the idea, and I love that it started as a historical comedy like The Romans or The Crusade before descending into total anarchy, and Troilan was pretty damn cute, but something felt kind of off. I'm guessing it was the changeover to a new producer, which... I mean, we criticise the Moffat/Davies switch, but going from Lambert to Wiles is probably even worse. The first two seasons were quite good, but Wiles's era is weirdly regressive - he helmed Galaxy 4 (women are evil!) while Lambert was busy with Mission to the Unknown, but in the next little bit you've got Vicki basically being married off in The Myth Makers (allegedly because Maureen O'Brien pointed out the plot holes in Galaxy 4), The Daleks' Master Plan (where two female companions die while the man survives), The Ark (where the subtext is basically "black people can't govern", not coincidentally right at the time when the British Empire was crumbling), and The Celestial Toymaker (Yellow Peril undertones, plus a cameo appearance by The N Word). So... yeah. Not looking forward to this next little bit, but let's hope I can find something to enjoy.

There are lots of conflicting stories about why Vicki was written out. Wiles's brief era is definitely a step down from Lambert's but there's something to enjoy in most of those stories. The Daleks' Master Plan was commissioned by Lambert, he didn't really want to do it but was stuck with it - yes, two female companions die, but it's a strong, epic story and Sara (who was never going to stay on full-time because Jean Marsh wasn't willing to commit) is a very different sort of character for the show. You're getting into the part of the season where Hartnell begins to be sidelined, for various reasons, and Steven has to step forward as the lead. Peter Purves does an excellent job, really. He works hard to maintain a consistent characterisation despite all the upheaval. The Daleks' Master Plan followed by The Massacre are really strong stories for Steven.

 

I just (re-)watched The Gunfighters, so I'm a little ahead of you in the season three marathon. I'm going to have The Ballad of the Last Chance Saloon stuck in my head for days!

 

Also, I think you may be being a little harsh with your assessment of the themes of some of those stories. 'Women are evil' for Galaxy 4? I'd say it was intended more as a reflection on not judging people by their appearance only - a beauty versus beast analogy. 'Black people can't govern' in The Ark? It's a story about consequences, and makes absolutely explicit that the alien takeover stems directly from the way they were treated by the humans. Yes, it probably was at least partly inspired by the break-up of the empire, but if anything, it's a warning against imperialism (beware if you seek to subjugate others, as they will eventually fight back), and ends with the two races making plans to live in harmony and equality, to avoid future strife. It's also an early attempt by the show to deal directly with 'timey-wimey' themes. It isn't the greatest - it's very clunky and the characterisation is weak - but, you know. As for The Celestial Toymaker, I just watched it and, despite its reputation, there aren't actually any 'Yellow Peril' undertones. The Toymaker wears Chinese robes but is not intended to be Chinese - it's a borrowed affectation, just like the Meddling Monk's habit. The 'Celestial' part of his name may reference his robes in the same way that the Meddling Monk calls himself Monk despite most assuredly not being one, but it is mostly a reference to his heavenly origin - he's an alien. The n-word is part of a counting rhyme and was an ad lib by the actor that is faded out in most recons and covered by narration in the audio release; it's not in the script. There's nothing racist about the actual story. I mean, don't get me wrong - it's a really awful story that I will never bother with again, absolutely zero plot and pretty much zero meaningful characterisation as well, but it doesn't really deserve its reputation as racist. If anything, I'd hazard a guess that the name came first and was felt to be suitably grandiose and otherworldly ("He's not just a toymaker, he's a heavenly toymaker...no, wait: a celestial toymaker. He comes from the stars!") and then he was given the Chinese robes as a play on words - like I said, a borrowed affectation, just like his doll's house is also a borrowed affectation. I don't see how that's any more offensive than putting a similarly Trickster character in a monk's habit. Are they trying to say all monks are evil? Of course not. It's an alien in a costume. Ditto the Toymaker. The character isn't Chinese and his robes don't imply any slur on the Chinese. He's an alien in a costume. So is the Doctor, for that matter - nothing he does can be read as a commentary on Edwardian gentlemen, because he isn't one.

 

Edited much later because I've been pondering this all the way to work. It was the 'Galaxy 4 = women are evil' comment that stayed with me. Why is it that a female antagonist is seen as a commentary on all women, when the world abounds with male antagonists without anyone assuming their existence must mean all men are evil? Maaga is a really interesting character - she's strong-minded, intelligent, militaristic, cunning, ruthless, capable both of strategic planning and of making mistakes, frustrated by the limitations of her soldiers, driven by ambition and personal demons. She has reasons for everything she does. If she were a male character, we'd be applauding the depth of her characterisation (as compared with, say, Mavic Chen in DMP, who is entertaining, but whose characterisation basically boils down to 'I want power at all costs'). But because she's a woman, because she doesn't conform to standard expectations of femininity, somehow all that characterisation is completely overlooked and the character seen merely as a grudge against all women by the writer? Isn't that a very gendered reading of the text? To me, Galaxy 4 doesn't say 'all women are evil'. It says that women are more than delicate little flowers, more than damsels in distress, more than merely the love interest. It says that women can be space pilots and engineers and soldiers and commanders. They can be ambitious and militaristic. They can be good at their jobs, they can be bad at their jobs. They can be clever, they can be cunning. They can be prejudiced and imperfect. They can win victories and they can make mistakes. They can be more than most television of the era allowed them to be. Seriously - a spaceship crewed only by women, who are presented purely in professional terms - that's incredibly progressive for the time. Take a look at a few episodes of Star Trek or The Man from Uncle and see how women are presented there, then compare it with Doctor Who. It certainly had its faults, and more than a few aspects that are definitely unfortunate from a modern perspective, but it was extremely progressive at the time, in all kinds of ways.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Llywela

[SnideAsides]

I think many of those things are circumstantial rather than deliberate, to be fair (though is "He's celestial, let's make him Chinese as a pun!" really much better than "It's a Chinese character, let's call him celestial as a pun!"?), but I'd argue that it's a race of female villains rather than just Maaga in Galaxy 4 (I actually agree with you that it's nice to see women as antagonists, to the point I think the Rani is a better idea for a character than the Master even if the execution was botched), and that there's far too many bits like this and Hartnell's "we have to get out of here, it's full of Arabs" line in DMP for it to be entirely coincidental.

 

Speaking of, my highly sophisticated thoughts on The Daleks' Master Plan is that it is long. The good news is it's four-parters from here until Hartnell's gone, which is a plus.

[Llywela]

 I'd argue that it's a race of female villains rather than just Maaga in Galaxy 4

A race of female villains? We met exactly one person from Maaga's world - Maaga herself - plus a handful of her 'half-life' clone soldiers. Hardly a representative sample. All we know of their world is that women are the dominant gender and that Maaga despises all men and is highly militaristic in outlook. She isn't an unbiased witness, so we can't read every word she says as true of her entire race (how many human villains have there been over the years? Were any of them speaking for the entire human race?) Is it ham-fisted and heavy-handed, yes? But I'd bet they were shooting for role reversal there, looking at our own male-dominant world in which women were for so long considered lesser (and in many places still are).

 

Sure, there are loads of unfortunate things in archive television material, that's always going to be the case - we're looking at this material from a completely different direction than anyone did back then. But I do think we can be over-sensitive to it at times. Make note of the unfortunate things, sure, but don't define entire serials and eras by them, because there's so much more to appreciate. I prefer to take a more measured approach.

 

I also think we shouldn't pre-judge elements taken out of context without actually sitting down and watching the thing - have you watched The Daleks' Master Plan before? It is very long, but it neatly divides into three distinct sub-adventures (plus an interlude), so you might find it easier if you watch it as such. As for Hartnell's Arab line - it was meant as a joke, part of a comedy episode. Not a good joke, and it falls very flat now because the episode no longer exists to be watched, but it isn't an 'oh no, horrible Arabs' line when you put it back in context. The team has landed on a film set and are completely bewildered, they are surrounded by actors in Arabian costume milling around, blocking their escape back to the TARDIS. The line is, I believe, intended as 'there are people everywhere!'  exasperation - the team are trying to escape from Daleks, they've been pinwheeling around time and space, and now they are in this weird place they don't understand surrounded by people who haven't a clue. It isn't a funny joke, especially by modern standards, and I'm not sure it was actually the scripted line - I suspect it may be a Hartnell fluff - but I also don't think it was intended in anything like the way you imply.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Llywela

[Llywela]

No, I'm not saying she's lying, I'm saying she isn't a representative sample. In narrative terms, it's called being aware of the unreliable narrator - just because a character says or believes something to be true, doesn't mean it is. You could put any extremist from Earth into Maaga's position - a racist, a chauvinist, etc - and would you want passing travellers to believe they represented the entire planet? Maaga is putting forward her own deeply held position, and is no doubt very much a product of her society. But it doesn't automatically follow that that society is uniform, that everyone feels exactly the same way. Especially since we know that Maaga has an axe to grind, because she resents being sent on this mission in the first place and considers it a punishment - our personal bias colours everything we say and do and is not the same as deliberately lying. Maaga holds one position, and I'm sure she's far from alone in that. But if we actually visited her planet for a story, I'm also sure we'd find moderates and liberals as well.

 

Honestly, take a look at human history. You'll struggle to find a single nation that hasn't at some point been subjugated and enslaved, or aggressive and expansionist, or both, at some point in history. As late as the 1970s women still had to give up their career if they became pregnant. Extremism is alive and well to this day. But are we a race of villains? I hope not! We are just people with a flawed society that has gone through many developmental stages and will continue to do so. For all we know, the same is true of the Drahvins - they aren't a race of villains, they are aliens with a flawed society, which isn't the same thing. I've always thought they'd be really interesting to re-visit - can you imagine someone like Sarah Jane Smith on a female-dominated planet, seeing the flaws in that society, the oppression of the men, and realising decades ahead of her time that true feminism requires equality for all and encouraging the Drahvins to recognise that as well?

[SnideAsides]

Not to mention the female-led society in The Happiness Patrol, which genuinely is a story where the main non-monster villains just happen to be women rather than having "society of women!" as their selling point.

 

In other news, The Massacre of St. Bartholomew's Et Cetera is a tough one. The whole Catholic/Protestant debate kind of bores me in general and the story suffers as a result, but on the other hand if the episodes get found I'd be perfectly willing to watch it again. In the meantime, though? Right near the bottom of my ranking.

[Llywela]

I had mixed feelings about that one myself, because on the one hand I really enjoyed Steven's role in the story, his struggles to understand what's going on and get all his ducks in order, his loyalty to the Doctor, his determination to save the people he's come to know whether he understands the politics or not - it's a really good character story for him, with a powerful ending that's had the perfect build-up. But on the other hand, it really is dry stuff, and the last-minute removal of the Doctor's sub-plot weakened the story considerably - especially now that the visuals no longer exist.

[tv-talk]

Where do you draw the line?

 

I draw the line at using white actors in painted faces and having them speak in nonsensical accents that are intended to be comedic based on exaggerating various real ethnic accents. Kevin Costner is just a shitty actor, if he was capable of doing a great accent he would have done so, he just cant. That's not at all the same thing as a Breakfast at Tiffanys type situation.

 

Anyway, it doesnt actually bother me or cause me to be 'upset' at a period of the show. I just think it was in very poor taste and cant be defended by calling it just a product of the times.

 

Now I really have to watch it again haha.

 

Also agree with above that the Baker years with Leela are probably the absolute high point of the show's long history, definitely going to get a rewatch going for myself on Hulu soon.

[benteen]

Speaking of the 4th/Leela years, I just watched The Sunmakers and I thought that was great.  I can see why it was Louisa Jameson's favorite story.

[tv-talk]

Just read something that said Tom Baker could not stand Leela's character due to her violent nature and that in Sunmakers you can see Baker's disdain for Leela come through in the Doctor. Interesting, will have to rewatch with an eye to that dynamic. 

[benteen]

I know Jameson has said that Baker wasn't the easiest person to work with (a lot of people have said that) and I believe Baker wanted the Doctor to be on his own at this point.  Though it seems the two have buried the hatchet and have worked together on a lot of Big Finish audios over the past few years.

[SnideAsides]

Got through The Ark, The Celestial Toymaker, and The Gunfighters over the weekend. We've talked about them fairly recently so I won't go into too much detail, but in the true spirit of westerns, let's call them The Good, the Bad and the Ugly and leave which one is which up to your interpretation. It feels kind of weird at this point, knowing that in four stories' time all three main cast members will be gone - Steven's out in the next one, then Dodo in the season finale, then One himself two stories later. I don't know whether to take this next bit slowly or power through them so I can get up to Two.

[tv-talk]

Just watched Underworld, would have to recommend giving it a pass to someone considering watching it. The story is fine and overall it has some nice moments, I especially like when Leela snaps out of being "pacified" and is genuinely upset and hurt emotionally about it- you just never see anything like that happen to Clara and I think it would help her character.

 

Overall though a fatal flaw- so much of it was shot with green screen and it's just exceedingly difficult to watch 30yrs later. Everyone running around the tunnels and so obviously just being superimposed on an illustration...story not good enough to make it worth the effort of watching I'd say.

[Llywela]

Just watched Underworld, would have to recommend giving it a pass to someone considering watching it. The story is fine and overall it has some nice moments, I especially like when Leela snaps out of being "pacified" and is genuinely upset and hurt emotionally about it- you just never see anything like that happen to Clara and I think it would help her character.

 

Overall though a fatal flaw- so much of it was shot with green screen and it's just exceedingly difficult to watch 30yrs later. Everyone running around the tunnels and so obviously just being superimposed on an illustration...story not good enough to make it worth the effort of watching I'd say.

Yeah, I struggled with the excessive green screen when I watched that one - but I really enjoyed Leela throughout anyway. She's such a strong character - in all the ways a character should be strong, by which I mean she isn't just physically capable but is also a character with nuance of feeling and emotion. She's a warrior, but entirely feminine. She cares about others, she strives to keep an open mind, she's eager to learn, she gets upset when her autonomy is taken from her - not every writer truly understands the character, but Louise Jameson always does an amazing job anyway.

[benteen]

I saw Underworld over the weekend too and I thought it was better than what I had read about it.  Usually it's ranked near the bottom for Doctor Who stories.  It wasn't perfect and the blue screen stuff is very noticeable.  Not Leela's best story either although she has her moments.  Season 15 was a little hit or miss overall though Horror at Fang Rock is one of my favorites and I really enjoyed The Sunmakers.

[Sandman87]

I didn't find the chroma key in Underworld to be all that distracting. Maybe the fact that I watched on a non-HD television had something to do with it.

I find myself more distracted by the inconsistent writing by the different scriptwriters, especially when it comes to the Doctor's attitude toward killing. In some episodes he's disintegrating people with Demat Guns (The Invasion of Time) or killing them with cyanide gas (The Brain of Morbius), and in others he's saying "No killing! Killing is bad! Never kill!"

[benteen]

Yeah, I've been noticing that despite all his non-violence preaching, the Fourth Doctor took out quite a few of his enemies.

[Llywela]

"I never take life. Only when my own is immediately threatened." That was how the 1st Doctor qualified it (Dalek Invasion of Earth), and he's operated on variations of that principle ever since. It usually evens out as 'I don't want to kill and will always tell others not to kill, but I'm a pragmatist and do what I must depending on the circumstances and who's writing me today', because yes: there wasn't always a great deal of consistency between writers, unfortunately. They were given character bios to work from, and had script editors to keep them in line, but often wrote in something of a vacuum - and character was never a top priority in the 70s.

[Joe]

Eric Saward was particularly bloody, IIRC. He wrote during a time where they were trying to compete with things like Star Wars. Part of me understands this. Hey, let's follow the lead of something popular. But I generally prefer something to be its own thing, not just trying to follow the trend of the day on a billionth of the budget. That rarely works out well.

[tv-talk]

I loved Brain of Morbius, saw it as a kid and it's just the perfect creepy castle, dark and stormy night setting. Have to watch it again for sure. There's a line early which is one of my favs from the whole series, 4th and Sarah are in the torrential  downpour, the door to castle opens, and the Doctor ask for a glass of water. Ha! That always cracked me up and is in some ways the epitome of Tom Baker's Doctor to me.

 

Definitely going to watch Robots of Death, Invasion of Time, and Sunmakers shortly- all serials I can remember really liking but havent seen in years and years.

[Llywela]

I'm halfway through The Creature from the Pit with the 4th Doctor and Romana, which I hadn't seen before, and...well, we all know I have quite a high tolerance for the vagaries of the '60s and '70s, but...safe to say, this one is not going to go down as a favourite.

 

I loved the 1st Doctor adventure The Savages, though.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Llywela

[Joe]

Is that the antimatter causes lycanthropy one?

[Llywela]

Is that the antimatter causes lycanthropy one?

What, The Savages? No. Off the top of my head, antimatter causes mutation in Planet of Evil, and toxic chemicals from the core of the Earth causes mutation in Inferno - are either of those the one you mean?

 

The Savages is a First Doctor adventure about a deeply flawed society on a distant planet in the far future, and the title is actually quite a clever subversion, because it's a story about exploitation and oppression and makes absolutely explicit that the titular 'savages' are not, in fact, the spear- and club-wielding folk living in rags and skins in the wilderness, but the opulent, educated city-dwellers who subjugate them, literally sucking the life force from their victims. No mutation or lycanthropy is involved whatsoever, it's all about the savagery of human nature, the lies a civilisation will tell itself to justify its treatment of those coded as 'outsiders', and the horrors that otherwise perfectly decent people are capable of perpetrating simply because that's the way things are. It's a good story, strong stuff - shame it doesn't exist any more!

 

Or did you mean Creature from the Pit? I've seen no mutation or lycanthropy in that one so far, either - the titular creature in the pit appears to be a giant brain!

Edited February 26, 2015 by Llywela

[Joe]

Ah, Planet of Evil was the one I was thinking of.