S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[Meredith Quill]

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Episode Synopsis:

TBC.

[Pallas]

A rich conclusion, with what felt like as much plot as other eps this season, yet a number of sustained scenes and character notes.  A Show felt like A Show.  

• The redemption train is filling back up again. Jaime leaves Cersei, not because she's Cersei, but because he gave his word!  Oathkeeper!  And Theon takes to heart that he is both Stark and Greyjoy, and risks being beaten to death, to try to save Yara.
• Cersei manages not to have the Mountain kill both her siblings in the same afternoon,  though she spares Tyrion only in order to use him to deceive her opponents. But a wonderfully tense and well-made scene between Tyrion and Cersei: one that was given time to breathe, one where the two combatants repeated points made before -- as people do -- and never let up on each other.
• Bronn and Pod go off to let the fancy people talk, and never return. Did Bronn switch sides?
• Aegon Targaryen. A beautiful sequence. 
• And the Stark sisters. Littlefinger dies by Knifey. Trying to look innocent. 
• "You're still very strange, and annoying."
• Dragons are not slaves, said Dany. The Night King has only vassals. 

For me, a finale that made amends for much of the season it concluded.

[DirewolfPup]

So a quick recap of what we know from tonight's episode:

Cersei / Jamie / Other KL Crew

- Cersei is planning to keep her armies south and re-double her forces with an additional 20,000 men hired from Essos using the Iron Bank's loan.

- Tyrion knows she's pregnant.

- She couldn't or didn't kill Tyrion nor Jamie.

- Qyburn seemed creepily fascinated by the severed and animated hand. What is that goblin of a human being going to come up with now?

- Brienne said "fuck loyalty" which, whoa, is kind of a big deal

- Jamie has left Cersei. Temporary or not, it will be interesting to see that resolved.

Sansa / Arya / Littlefinger

- I'm even more confused by last week's episode. The sisters were fully at odds last week with Arya insinuating that she could kill Sansa at any point. They could have resolved their differences and fully fleshed out their misconceptions off screen for full dramatic effect.

- We got an answer to the series-long question: who sent the bumbling assassin? Turns out it was Littlefinger as some of us here predicted. It also explains why he sent the worst assassin ever. He wanted them to survive to cast doubts and discover the knife that led them to Tyrion.

- Good bye Littlefinger. Too bad, so sad. Honestly, all his crimes listed one after another made me realize how much he actually did. I forgot some of them, like killing Lysa. Completely forgot about that.

Jon Snow (aka Aegon Targaryan) / Dany

- Jorah is becoming obsolete. Dany didn't take his advice. I don't see Jorah living much longer. He's becoming disposable to A Show.

- Jon and Dany together just made my stomach turn. It probably didn't help that it was narrated by Bran/Sam talking about how they're related. I bet she gets pregnant, ugh. Something about Targaryans breeding together or some such nonsense. Tyrion doesn't approve. I agree with Tyrion.

- Drogon seems to still be getting bigger every day. He was gigantic.

Eastwatch / AotD / WW

- Are we to assume that Tormond and Eye-patch are dead now? I didn't see them die or survive, but they were on the top of that wall that fell.

- Damn dragon. Couldn't tell if what it was shooting was blue fire, magic-be-gone ice liquid or something else. <shrug>

- Here's hoping they march to King's Landing first

Random Asides:

- When Bronn escorted Podrick out of the arena, my stomach sank and thought they were all going to die.

- Sam apparently was listening to the High Septon's personal diary. I still wonder how the High Seption rationalized an annulment to an already married Prince with children. Seems unordinary. Bran's visions can actually be useful finally (LF trial and seeing relevant past events)

[Pallas]

11 minutes ago, DirewolfPup said:

Cersei is planning to keep her armies south and re-double her forces with an additional 20,000 men hired from Essos using the Iron Bank's loan.

 

And elephants, she believes. Who wants to bet this show's a dick to elephants? 

15 minutes ago, DirewolfPup said:

I'm even more confused by last week's episode. The sisters were fully at odds last week with Arya insinuating that she could kill Sansa at any point. They could have resolved their differences and fully fleshed out their misconceptions off screen for full dramatic effect.

Complete misdirection, as if once Arya threatened to kill her sister and then skin her, they finally found time to sit down and catch up.  Unworthy of A Show.  And for the sake of that semi-surprising turn of events, we were denied hearing what each sister would have -- must have -- said to the other about her experiences. Think of the time once given, say, to Tyrion's account of his first marriage...

24 minutes ago, DirewolfPup said:

We got an answer to the series-long question: who sent the bumbling assassin? Turns out it was Littlefinger as some of us here predicted. It also explains why he sent the worst assassin ever. He wanted them to survive to cast doubts and discover the knife that led them to Tyrion.

 

I'm not sure, even though I'm someone who believed it was Littlefinger's plot. Sansa said that Littlefinger lied to Cat about the knife's being Tyrion's and not his, then said that by so doing, he'd set off the hostilities between the Starks and Lannisters. But she didn't accuse him of setting up the assassination -- why? I realize there's no other explanation for how Littlefinger's knife came to be used, but why did Tyrion never say it wasn't his knife to begin with? And despite Catelyn's heroics, if Summer hadn't intervened, the assassin would have killed both Cat and Bran.  

49 minutes ago, DirewolfPup said:

Are we to assume that Tormond and Eye-patch are dead now? I didn't see them die or survive, but they were on the top of that wall that fell.

 

Did they make it to the ground in time? I know -- in time to be buried under the wall as it came down, rather than fall to their deaths? 

I just want to be there when Cersei learns that the Crown Prince for whom she once set her cap, went and married Lyanna fucking Stark, whose name her husband called out on their wedding night.

[ChocButterfly]

Actually, I thought this episode was kind of predictable, which is fine by me, I don't want them to start making up stupidities just for the sake of shocking us.

Thee only thing that surprised me was that Cersei hadn't planned anything murderous for the meeting.

6 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

- When Bronn escorted Podrick out of the arena, my stomach sank and thought they were all going to die.

This. I was expecting Cersei's hired merrcenaries from Essos to come out of the pits and slaughter them all when they were left there alone waiting. When Dany arrived in Drogon, I almost screamed at her not to let the dragon fly away.

So Cersei was surprisingly restrained and even, let's say reasonable? I mean, she did pay attention to the zombie and she was willing to agree to the truce at first, but she wanted the North on her side. Understandable. Of course, the minute she made that last agreement, I knew she wouldn't honor it. We all called it last week,. She'd agree to help them, and then stay right there waiting for Dany's army to be masacrated by the Dead. Is way too convenient for her to let it pass. Of course, what Jaimie said is also true, then what? But Cersei doesn't think so far ahead. If she has to die by the hand of the Dead, she'd rather die as The Queen.

I also knew Cersei wasn't going to kill Tyrion, if she had, she'd have a problem right there with the whole of Dany's army and dragons outside her door waiting to venge their Hand. Yeah, Cersei is not that stupid. 

6 hours ago, Pallas said:

Jaime leaves Cersei, not because she's Cersei, but because he gave his word!  Oathkeeper!  

Yeah.....I'm not eveen sure if hat makes Jaimie beter or worst in my view. Like his word meant much before! Plus, Like Brienne said, Fuck loyalty! This is more important than words or honor. I wish Jaimie would have left because it was the right thing to do, not because he gave his stupid word. And yeah, he still doesn't care about puching a little kid from a window. Asshole.

 

The minute I saw Bran on that meeting, I knew it was a setup for LF. I mean, as USELESS as Bran is, surely he wasn't going to let his siter kill his other sister? And  speaking of Bran, seriously, he can see anything that has happened before and he still didn't know about Reaghar and Lyanna? He had seen the vision of his aunt telling Ned a secret before handing him Jon, but he didn't try to listen to it?? He hadn't thought of finding out how on earth did Lyanna ended up with Reaghar in the first place?? What the fuck is he doing with his time??? Ugh, useless fucking Tree Eyed Raven. And really, why does he have to go outside to the freaking snow in front of that stupid Tree to have his visions? Ca't he do it in his comfy bed by the fire? Why is he trying to turn into that Tree? That seems tobe what he's doing. Probably to have an excuse to be more useless. " But now, not only I can't walk, I'm a Tree. I can't move at all!". Ugh, idiot, I hope he finally does something in the final season.

7 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

I still wonder how the High Seption rationalized an annulment to an already married Prince with children.

THIS. I've always said that it doesn't even matter wether Jon is a bastard or not. By all means, Cersei has NO claim the Throne, yet, she's The Queen now. Of course Dany and Jon were meant to rule together (if they don't die) becaue it was obvious from the beginnning they'd marry.  LF was right about that. It makes the most strategical sense. That has nothing to do with im being a bastard or not.

But the fact that a Maester allowed the annullment of a ROYAL marriage, that had already 2 children (HEIRS) with one of the biggest houses in Westeros, is a major flaw. And Stupid Bran was wrong, the war would'd have happened anyway. Just different. Because there's no way in hell all of the kingdoms, specially Dorne, would allow the Prince to break that alliance. 

 

I still don't know what zombie Dragon breathes. It doesn't seem to be hot, but It doesn't seem to be ice either. It looked like electricity, but it seemed like one of those rays of a science fiction weapon? That doesn't make much sense.

[DirewolfPup]

6 hours ago, Pallas said:

but why did Tyrion never say it wasn't his knife to begin with? And despite Catelyn's heroics, if Summer hadn't intervened, the assassin would have killed both Cat and Bran.  

Tyrion never saw the knife. Cat showed it to Littlefinger then left it with Ned in King's Landing. She didn't bring up the distinctive knife with Tyrion until he was already captured on the King's Road. She told him about the knife that belonged to him, but didn't have it to present. Season 1, Episode 5: The Wolf and the Lion

Tyrion Lannister: I had nothing to do with the attempt on your son’s life.
Catelyn Stark: The dagger found–
Tyrion Lannister: What sort of imbecile arms an assassin with his own blade?
Rodrik Cassel: Should I gag him?
Tyrion Lannister: Why? Am I starting to make sense? 

[ChocButterfly]

Can anyone explain to me why was Tyrion acting so weird when he saw Jon coming into Dany's room? I thought he was shipping those 2. Was he jealous? And why did he bleieve Cersei so easily about the second deal? What did he tell her that he thought he had finally convinced her? And they didn't show the end of the conversation, that was so weird as well. And how did Tyrion know she was pregnant? Because she didn't drink the wine? Or because she kept touching her belly? Hey,she could've had a cramp! And I don't think pregnant women abstained from alcohol in those days, heck, I think even in my mother's days they didn't think it was a big deal. If you watch Call the Midwife, you'll see not even the doctors care about letting pregnant women smoke.

I don't care that Jon was stupid for not lying to Cersei. Truth be told, Cersei was still going to betray them all, with or without Jon's word. She was just playing her part well, you know trying to be convincing.

On a shallow note, Jon has a superb butt!!!! I'm sure Bran was spying on those 2 doing it. Useless Little Perv! I bet he tells  Jon he looked "so pretty" while boning the Dragon Queen, his aunt <3 . 

At least they finally had a character blankly asking Dany why she keeps saying she cannot have anymore children. I thought Jon's answer was spot on, because a witch who hated you said so? But then again, Dany is a woman and she knows the basics needed to get pregnant, so if she's not getting her  period, I think she has good reason to belive said witch.

[janjan]

4 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

11 hours ago, Pallas said:

Jaime leaves Cersei, not because she's Cersei, but because he gave his word!  Oathkeeper!  

Yeah.....I'm not eveen sure if hat makes Jaimie beter or worst in my view. Like his word meant much before! 

We need our Stumbler of House Historian to dredge up the exchange between Jaime and Cat after Robb has captured him. Cat says "You broke your oath," and he says something like, "Oath schmoath."

I found it odd that, after all he has seen from Cersei, it was that that turned him. Sort of out of character for someone who has been at best ambivalent about oaths before. King Plot issued another edict, and mere mortals must obey.

Edited August 28, 2017 by janjan
clarification

[Pallas]

3 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

Tyrion never saw the knife.

True! But I'd always assumed that this conversation about the dagger followed a previous one, since in this dialogue Tyrion seems already tired of hearing about how the dagger found on the assassin belonged to Tyrion. It doesn't matter though. Littlefinger has always made the most sense as the plotter. It's possible the brothel-keeper did obtain the dagger from Tyrion, originally, and in circumstances Tyrion was reluctant to disclose to Lady Stark, before he understood what was at stake. 

 

37 minutes ago, ChocButterfly said:

Can anyone explain to me why was Tyrion acting so weird when he saw Jon coming into Dany's room? I thought he was shipping those 2. Was he jealous? 

 

Jealous, yes, I think. Siblings know each other's blind spots, and Cersei was right that Dany is Tyrion's type, even if she was ostensibly japing at him about Shae. Tyrion didn't much mind Dany's dalliance with Dario, though it probably didn't pain him to counsel her to leave Dario behind. But Jon Snow's no Dario. He's not even Jon Snow. 

 

1 hour ago, ChocButterfly said:

And why did he bleieve Cersei so easily about the second deal? What did he tell her that he thought he had finally convinced her?

That's the question, isn't it! I think Tyrion believes he found a way to give Cersei what he believes she wants more than a truce with the North: a guarantee of safety for her child. That is, he's made Ned's mistake. I can buy it. Since he returned to Westeros with Dany, he's been increasingly ambivalent and looking for ways, any ways, to avoid more total warfare. (And good for him.) As he said, he's haunted by having killed their father, and for his role in Myrcella and Tommen's deaths: especially Myrcella's, I'd imagine, indirect though it was.

Anyway. I think he did more than argue that the Night King and his armies would kill her and her child; he guaranteed that Dany would not, no matter what. Again, the risk Ned took, which doesn't need to have turned out "right" to be right. I suppose Tyrion could even have volunteered to leave Dany after the war with the dead was won, and return to King's Landing to counsel or be killed by Cersei, as she saw fit, from day to day.

She'd believe he'd see it through (like a Clegane) because she'd just seen his guilt and self-hatred exposed: the fact that he'd  proposed the parley, then dared to come to her alone, after it broke down. The terms in which he taunted her to kill him. And -- as opposed to the whack-a-wight plan -- it's not that Cersei actually had to car,e or believe any of it. She only had to convince the guilty, self-hating Tyrion that she did. 

 

1 hour ago, ChocButterfly said:

And how did Tyrion know she was pregnant? Because she didn't drink the wine? Or because she kept touching her belly?

I think the belly touch, though who knows what Qyburn knows. Cersei's refusing the wine he poured seemed to me more another jab (Tyrion the conscripted cupbearer at Joffrey's wedding) pretending to be a precaution. And she wanted him to know: she had that, touch-my-belly-feelingly-yet-as-if-subconsciously-while-gazing-into-your-eyes-with-a-serene-smile deliberate tell down cold.

So it seems that in this episode, Cersei tried to move both her brothers on behalf of the generation to come: in just those words with Jaime, and tacitly with Tyrion. And it was Jaime who proved unmoved. Or rather moved, nonetheless, to leave her and King's Landing. 

[janjan]

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

Jon Snow's no Dario. He's not even Jon Snow. 

Hee! Like the late lamented Duck Sauce, Jon Snow needs a proper-sounding name. How about Egg-on?

[WhiteStumbler]

Pig shit! The second word in the episode was "pig shit" (pitch). HAHAHAHA!

 

3 hours ago, janjan said:

We need our Stumbler of House Historian to dredge up the exchange between Jaime and Cat after Robb has captured him. Cat says "You broke your oath," and he says something like, "Oath schmoath."

This? It is between Cat and Robb, but I think it has some of the flavor of what you are looking for.

Cat: And you agreed to it (marriage to a Frey). You gave him your word. Treat your oaths recklessly and your people will do the same. If your father lived his life for one thing...
Robb: My father is dead, and the only parent I have left has no right to call anyone reckless.

Littlefinger is dead! I've been waiting for that since the beginning of S2...

Littlefinger: (to Ross) You know you remind me of another girl? A lovely thing I once acquired from a Lysene pleasure house. Beautiful, like yourself, and intelligent as yourself. But she wasn't happy. She cried, often. I asked her why but, we didn't have the kind of rapport that you and I have. Yes, it was quite sad. Girls from Lysene pleasure houses are expensive. Extremely expensive. And this one wasn't making me any money. I hate bad investments. Really, I do. They haunt me. I had no idea how to make her happy, no idea how to mitigate my losses. A very wealthy patron, he offered me a tremendous amount of money to let him... transform this lovely, sad girl. To use her in ways that never occur to most men. And you know what occurs to most men. I wouldn't say he succeeded in making her happy, but my losses were definitely mitigated.

 

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

And it was Jaime who proved unmoved. Or rather moved, nonetheless, to leave her and King's Landing. 

And now all the Targaryen steel weapons that we know about are either on the way North or already there...

Widows Wail (with Jaime)
Oath Keeper (with Brienne)
Heart's Bane (with Sam)
Knifey! (with Arya)
Long Claw (with Jon)

SO MUCH TO UNPACK!

ETA THIS from The Hound: What did they do to you? Doesn't matter. That's not how it ends for you, brother. You know who's coming for you. You've always known.

Edited August 28, 2017 by WhiteStumbler

[janjan]

28 minutes ago, WhiteStumbler said:

THIS from The Hound: What did they do to you? Doesn't matter. That's not how it ends for you, brother. You know who's coming for you. You've always known.

I didn't get what he meant by that. What has the Mountain always known?

I found the Jaime quote when Cat accuses him of breaking his vow, presumably his King's Guard vow:

"So many vows. They make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Obey your father. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. What if your father despises the king? What If the king massacres the innocent?"

[WhiteStumbler]

18 minutes ago, janjan said:

I didn't get what he meant by that. What has the Mountain always known?

I took it to mean that The Hound desperately wants to kill his brother. For pressing his face into the fire like a fat mutton chop.

Great quote re: Jaime and his vows! He has come a long way since then.

WHY didn't Dany et al ask Cersei for pyromancers and wildfire? Seems like that would be a lot more useful than just soldiers.

ETA
Season 7 Complete: Ghost sightings = 0
BOOO!

Edited August 28, 2017 by WhiteStumbler

[janjan]

54 minutes ago, WhiteStumbler said:

Season 7 Complete: Ghost sightings = 0
BOOO!

Boos echo throughout the kingdom!! I watched for him all season, but only his little sis Nymeria appeared. And Egg-on-Face seems unconcerned! Boo on him.

[gingerella]

Welllllll...I hardly know where to begin...In no particular order:

The demise of LF was swift and just and one of the most satisfying deaths A Show has given us to date. I loved when Sansa said "Lord Balish" at the end of the verdict...it was stunning really. And interesting to see LF sink to his knees and cry like the little bitch that we all knew he was. No noble ending for this twatmonger,  and I LOVED Arya's walking past him and slicing his neck like, "enough bitch, you're words aren't worth hearing, be done with you!"  I loved the dialogue between the sisters Stark on the rampart...the two of them have changed the most of all the Stark siblings in terms of where they started and where they are now. They both seem the most NOT like Ned and Cat. Yet they are still very much tied as family. It was nice to see Arya acknowledge what Sansa has been through and how she wouldn't have fared as well. And I appreciate that the Vale bannermen are now firmly rooted in Team Stark.

 

The whole charade with Cersei was stupid. She thinks she's smarter than both brothers but really she's the stupidest one of the bunch, blinded by greed, she has become The Mad Queen, ironic isn't it? Bat bad timing. I suppose she did not kill Tyrion not because he is one of the last of the Lannister, but because she is hoping to see him fail, which is stupid because his failure will be her death if evil and darkness win this thing. I think her reneging on sending her bannermen North was just typical stupid Cersei.  The comment from Hound to Mountain I took as the Hound would one day kill his brother. And I was certain that the wight would be gone when that box was opened...I was surprised that thing was still kicking so to speak. Cersei's face was priceless when the the wight came at her. I bet she peed herself a little bit!

 

So Sam got to WInterfell fast huh?!? That horsecart must have had more horsepower than we reailzed eh...stupid forced plot/timeline. It seemed weird that he didn't listen to or respond a time all to Gilly reading that important passage to him at the Citadel, but apparently he heard it fully. Lazy continuity. Also, why did Bran need Sam to tell him, "duuude, why don't you go back in time and watch the fucking wedding yourself!" Why doe Bran need to be told to do that? Maybe his head after being pushed out of the tower, he's not really all that smart anymore...

 

As for Jon and Dany and The Long Night of Familial Boning, Jon sexing up his aunt is gross. I wonder what Dany will think when she learns she did it with her nephew. I know, it's the Targ thing but I doubt either of them will be pleased to learn of this. I think because of their family ties, they won't stay together, but I wonder if Dany will get pregnant as a result and birth more dragons??? OR a human heir if Jon gets...NO, I cannot go there, JON MUST LIVE. Speaking of which, Jon's ass is magnificent. His thighs are perfection. Oy! Dany has bedded the best looking dudes in Westeros and beyond...lucky lady.  I took Tyrion's concerned look when he knew those two were doing it, to be concern that both of them would not be on their A game if they were googly eyed over each other and that might get in the way at a time when I errors cannot be made by Team Living.

 

Once again, the bad CGI and silly zombonies just took me out of A Show and I just rolled my eyes over that shit. The WW/wight/zomboni team should be fired, under a hail of flaming pigshit!

 

I really don't like how there were so many off camera convos like HOW did Tyrion get Cersei to agree, even if it was a ruse on her part? She wanted to kill him for a long time and then punked out? WTF?!? And when exactly did Cersei and Urine have their little discussion about buying mercenaries with the Iron Bank loan? And when did Sansa, Arya and Bran talk together and with the lead bannermen about LFs treasonous ways? This is shit we should have seen! THIS is the shit they should have made a full fucking 10 episodes for! 

 

Lastly, for tonight at least, I want to talk about the Wall coming down. At first I was horrified because, so much for the powerful spells put into it, eh?!? But after thinking about it today, I can see an endgame for A Show where IF darkness is defeated and  Light and the Living win this thing, then there would no longer be any reason to have the Wall separating the Wildlings from the Northerners, etc., right? Ultimately, if Life wins, then everyone would be able to move freely across whatever terrain they wish, no more walls, barriers, etc. People like Brienne and Tormund could travel freely North past where the current Wall is, and come back again. Perhaps a world without walls and borders is where A Show is headed? 

Edited August 30, 2017 by gingerella

[WhiteStumbler]

10 hours ago, gingerella said:

Also, why did Bran need Sam to tell him, "duuude, why don't you go back in time and watch the fucking wedding yourself!"

Bran didn't know that it was significant until Sam told him it was.

 

10 hours ago, gingerella said:

I took Tyrion's concerned look when he knew those two were doing it

As Dany's Hand, Tyrion would be concerned about the possible political implications of a King in da Norf / Targ physical alliance. Since Jon has already pledged fealty to Dany, there is no political benefit to having him as her bedmate as well, and it could be an impediment to a future political alliance with another Great House.

 

10 hours ago, gingerella said:

bad CGI and silly zombonies

Oh Ging, we will have to definitely have to agree to disagree about this one. I think the effects were feature-film quality, as good as anything I have seen in a theater in the last few years.

Great to read your thoughts (as always)!

Edited August 29, 2017 by WhiteStumbler

[janjan]

11 hours ago, gingerella said:

Perhaps a world without walls and borders is where A Show is headed? 

And yet, that great philosopher Ramsay said, "If you think this ends well, you haven't been paying attention."

Loved your post, Ging. It captured much of what I was thinking but couldn't articulate. Mostly, that I just couldn't fathom people's intentions -- as you say, because so many crucial conversations were not shown. The blight of a short season. Why didn't Cersei kill Tyrion? And what was he trying to accomplish anyway? And why did Cersei renege when Jon wouldn't bend the knee? Did she really think he would? And why did Jon suddenly bend the knee to Dany? They were doing okay as equal allies. And what finally caused Jaime to break with Cersei? His vow? Or the fact that she colluded with Urine without telling him? Really?

There were also a few cases of Blatant Audience Manipulation -- most unusual for A Show.

• BAM #1: Cersei nods to Mountain to kill Jaime. Mountain unsheathes sword. Audience squirms. But he doesn't do it. He needs two nods, or what?
• BAM #2: Arya stands before the Lady of Winterfell, looking like the accused. OK, that was just to reassure LF that his plan is working so he doesn't bolt. (Arya's knowing smile when Sansa says, "How do you plead, Lord Baelish?" indicates that she's in on the ruse.) But why earlier did Sansa tell the guards, "Have my sister brought to the great hall." That was just to worry the audience.

But I cavil at trifles. The tension of waiting in the dragon pit was intense, especially when Bronn took Podrick and fled. The final reveal of Jon's parentage, though belated, was nicely done. And while I agree with Ging that CGI zombonies are boring as hell, it was neat to see a dead dragon spewing blue fire.

But the Wall didn't melt - it fell down! Luckily they're next to the Narrow Sea, so it fell into the water. Otherwise, it would be just as hard to climb over the rubble as to climb an intact wall. But I cavil.

Edited August 29, 2017 by janjan

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, janjan said:

And yet, that great philosopher Ramsay said, "If you think this ends well, you haven't been paying attention."

Yes BUT...that was said not in reference to the Great War of Winter, that was said, IIRC and please let WhiteStumbler of House Historian correct me if I'm wrong, but was in overall reference to either Reek or Sansa's future under House Bolton, no? I dont think that statement would apply to the War of Winter, the AotD, WWs and so on. But hey, what do I know, I'm wrong about so much of this story.

 

Another thing I was thinking about was Brienne, Jamie, and Tormund. I predict here and now, that in the last season, somewhere during a great battle between the Living and the Dead, Brienne will find herself in peril and about to be killed, and she will look to Jamie, who will see what's happening, look her in the eyes as she pleads for help, but he will turn tail and run, and then WHOOOOOOSH! Tormund Giantsbane will swoop in and save his lady love because....GINGER BABIES! You heard it here first... Afterward, they will share a night of passionate giant-sized lovemaking where Brienne, presumably with zero experience, will have to slow Torumund's roll quite literally, and hilarious side comments will ensue. And Tormund will either live or not live, but Brienne will birth ginger babies as a result. I dont know why but I feel this will happen. Fo sho.

[Llywela]

Woooo! I can't believe the season is over already - whose bright idea was it to make it so short this year? Were they worried there wasn't enough material to fill 10 episodes? Because if so, I can suggest a few sub-plots that would have benefitted from deeper exploration! Still, in spite of its short length and pacing problems, I've enjoyed the season really rather a lot - unlike certain other seasons I could name, the terrible things have actually been balanced out by positive developments, and there has finally been a real sense of forward progression, after what seems like years spent spinning wheels in more than one storyline.

And having said that, let me now scroll back up to see what everyone else has said...

On 28/08/2017 at 6:39 AM, DirewolfPup said:

- I'm even more confused by last week's episode. The sisters were fully at odds last week with Arya insinuating that she could kill Sansa at any point. They could have resolved their differences and fully fleshed out their misconceptions off screen for full dramatic effect.

- Jorah is becoming obsolete. Dany didn't take his advice. I don't see Jorah living much longer. He's becoming disposable to A Show.

- Sam apparently was listening to the High Septon's personal diary. I still wonder how the High Seption rationalized an annulment to an already married Prince with children. Seems unordinary.

Yeah, the Sansa-Arya turnaround was a bit jarring, after last week - blatant audience manipulation, as another poster mentioned further down-thread. Effective, but nonetheless manipulative, cheating us out of what must have been a glorious scene of sisterly bonding for the sake of a cheap twist. Or, actually, what must have been a glorious scene of sibling bonding, as Bran was clearly also in on the plot - and judging by his exchange with Littlefinger, he must have supplied at least some of the evidence (in Westeros, someone claiming to have visions of the past is clearly admissable evidence in a court of law). All that said, however, I really loved seeing Sansa and Arya working together to take Littlefinger down. I love that they have finally found a level on which they can co-exist, appreciating one another for their very different skillsets instead of resenting them.

I agree that Jorah is probably not long for this world now - he belongs to that older generation I expect to see wiped out completely before the end. I hope he lives long enough to meet little Lyanna Mormont first, though.

I was confused at first about Sam seeming to know all about Rhaegar's annulment when he wasn't listening to Gilly reading it at all - but then I realised she was probably reading from the text he'd already transcribed, rather than the mouldy old version he was copying from. That's why he wasn't paying attention - he already knew all about the stuff she was reading, because he'd had to copy it all out.

I would join you in wondering about the High Septon's agreement to annul a royal marriage that already had children, but then I remember Henry VIII. So yeah, there's real world precedence.

On 28/08/2017 at 7:34 AM, Pallas said:

Did they make it to the ground in time? I know -- in time to be buried under the wall as it came down, rather than fall to their deaths?

It didn't look as if Tormund and Beric could possibly have survived - but while watching, I wondered if what we were seeing in that scene was actually happening in realtime, Bran watching it happen in the present...or if it was one of Bran's visions of the future, which Team Living will now have to work to prevent.

And gods dammit, after all these years of political shenanigans, Show really has gone full Zombie Apocalypse now!

On 28/08/2017 at 1:47 PM, ChocButterfly said:

I still don't know what zombie Dragon breathes. It doesn't seem to be hot, but It doesn't seem to be ice either. It looked like electricity, but it seemed like one of those rays of a science fiction weapon? That doesn't make much sense.

It seemed to be fire, but white-hot fire rather than red-hot. But if the dragon is dead, and fire kills zombies, how can it breathe fire at all now?

On 28/08/2017 at 4:40 PM, ChocButterfly said:

At least they finally had a character blankly asking Dany why she keeps saying she cannot have anymore children. I thought Jon's answer was spot on, because a witch who hated you said so? But then again, Dany is a woman and she knows the basics needed to get pregnant, so if she's not getting her  period, I think she has good reason to belive said witch.

Amen! I've wanted someone to question Dany's belief in her infertility for years, just to hear her reasoning. And the witch's statement was the only evidence she offered in that scene - so does that mean everything else appears to be in working order, and she has simply taken the witch's word as gospel? Or did she just not want to go into detail about her personal reproductive biology with the bloke she fancies?

On 28/08/2017 at 9:54 PM, WhiteStumbler said:

WHY didn't Dany et al ask Cersei for pyromancers and wildfire? Seems like that would be a lot more useful than just soldiers.

Good point. Is there even any wildfire left, after the explosion of last season? Is Qyburn capable of making more? Or is it just that no one trusts Cersei and wildfire?

18 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

Bran didn't know that it was significant until Sam told him it was.

As Dany's Hand, Tyrion would be concerned about the possible political implications of a King in da Norf / Targ physical alliance. Since Jon has already pledged fealty to Dany, there is no political benefit to having him as her bedmate as well, and it could be an impediment to a future political alliance with another Great House.

Agreed on both points.

16 hours ago, gingerella said:

Another thing I was thinking about was Brienne, Jamie, and Tormund. I predict here and now, that in the last season, somewhere during a great battle between the Living and the Dead, Brienne will find herself in peril and about to be killed, and she will look to Jamie, who will see what's happening, look her in the eyes as she pleads for help, but he will turn tail and run, and then WHOOOOOOSH! Tormund Giantsbane will swoop in and save his lady love because....GINGER BABIES! You heard it here first... Afterward, they will share a night of passionate giant-sized lovemaking where Brienne, presumably with zero experience, will have to slow Torumund's roll quite literally, and hilarious side comments will ensue. And Tormund will either live or not live, but Brienne will birth ginger babies as a result. I dont know why but I feel this will happen. Fo sho.

I actually...really hope this doesn't happen. I mean, Tormund's crush on Brienne is cute and gives him a new shade to his character, but Brienne doesn't seem the slightest bit interested in him - in fact, she seems repulsed by his interest in her. And she is under no obligation to like him back just because he fancies her, so having that happen, given their interaction (or lack thereof) so far would to me seem almost as icky as all the incest.

[ChocButterfly]

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

It seemed to be fire, but white-hot fire rather than red-hot. But if the dragon is dead, and fire kills zombies, how can it breathe fire at all now?

I don't think so. The Wall wasn't melting, it was...I don't know, kind of like it had been struck down by a science fiction beam. It it were fire, we would have seen some ice melting and I guess smoke.

On 28/8/2017 at 4:54 PM, WhiteStumbler said:

WHY didn't Dany et al ask Cersei for pyromancers and wildfire? Seems like that would be a lot more useful than just soldiers.

Exactly. Specially Tyrion who knows about the Wildfire and has used it before. He knows how useful it'd be agaisnt the army of the dead!

20 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

As Dany's Hand, Tyrion would be concerned about the possible political implications of a King in da Norf / Targ physical alliance. Since Jon has already pledged fealty to Dany, there is no political benefit to having him as her bedmate as well, and it could be an impediment to a future political alliance with another Great House.

I would say is quite the contrary. A political marriage with the King in the North would be the best thing to placate the Northeners dislike for Danarys. Even though Jon has bent the knee, they all know the Northeners distrust her and they're already thinking about dethroning Jon. Or maybe they'll just get angrier and try to have him killed again. Who knows with these people! For a bunch of guys whose mayor moto is "The North Remembers", they surely remember what they want when they want, because those folks's loyalties are as flaky as the poor masses in King's Landing!

20 hours ago, janjan said:

Why didn't Cersei kill Tyrion? And what was he trying to accomplish anyway? And why did Cersei renege when Jon wouldn't bend the knee? Did she really think he would? And why did Jon suddenly bend the knee to Dany? They were doing okay as equal allies. And what finally caused Jaime to break with Cersei? His vow? Or the fact that she colluded with Urine without telling him? Really?

Your first question is easy. As I mentioned before, killing Tyrion right then would have been a stupid move. He's still the Hand of Dany and she was still outside with her MASSIVE army of Unsullied and Dothrakis, and of course, a couple of dragons close by. Cersei may or may not have known if Jon would bend the knee, but she obviously had to ask. And Jon didn't suddenly bend the knee to Dany, he had alreay done it last episode, when she rescued him. And I'd say, deservingly so, because, not only did she went right away to rescue him, risking her own life ,but she also lost one of her dragons for him.

As for Cersei's and Urine's plan, I have no idea when those 2 even had time to conspire. But it had to be before they knew of the zombie. So, like I said earlier, it doesn't matter if Jon had lied or not, she was already planning on betraying them, even before she knew what the truce was about. Cersei NEVER meant to agree to the truce. She was always going to say yes at the end to deceive them. She was only putting on an act.

What I don't understand is why Cersei let Jaimie go. Of course, I knew she wasn't going to kill him, but she should have locked him up. Now, he'll tell the others about her betrayal. Also, Jaimie shouldn't have left alone. He should have taken his men with him and try to convince other Bannermen to join him. I'm sure many would.

Edited August 30, 2017 by ChocButterfly
Spelling, the usual.

[janjan]

4 hours ago, Llywela said:

21 hours ago, gingerella said:

Another thing I was thinking about was Brienne, Jamie, and Tormund. I predict here and now, that in the last season, somewhere during a great battle between the Living and the Dead, Brienne will find herself in peril and about to be killed, and she will look to Jamie, who will see what's happening, look her in the eyes as she pleads for help, but he will turn tail and run, and then WHOOOOOOSH! Tormund Giantsbane will swoop in and save his lady love because....GINGER BABIES! You heard it here first...

I actually...really hope this doesn't happen. I mean, Tormund's crush on Brienne is cute and gives him a new shade to his character, but Brienne doesn't seem the slightest bit interested in him - in fact, she seems repulsed by his interest in her.

But . . . but . . . but, Jaime has already saved Brienne -- twice! He went back and snatched her out of the bear pit, and he prevented Locke's men from raping her (at the cost of his hand). He admires her, perhaps as the chivalrous ideal that he himself aspires to but can't quite achieve, though I'm not sure he is attracted romantically. Tormund, OTOH, wears his heart on his sleeve. Brienne seems to be more confused and embarrassed than repulsed. When he leers at her, she looks down or away - she doesn't look daggers at him. Betcha she's afraid he will mock her, like the boys Renley rescued her from.

So my money is on Tormund, assuming he isn't squashed under a falling Wall. Jaime, finally broken free of Cersei's spell,  will set his cap for Brienne, but he will finally find how much his devotion to Cersei has cost him (as Olenna predicted). Brienne respects honor. The hairy Wildling has honor, but the elegant nobleman does not.

[WhiteStumbler]

3 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

Also, Jaimie shouldn't have left alone.

Where was Bronn? I find it ludicrous that Jaime would leave KL without at least Bronn. Also, as you say, I would imagine there would be other soldiers who would put their personal loyalty to Jaime over their loyalty to a Queen that destroyed the Sept of Baelor (even while claiming it was an "accident"). Jaime should not have been utterly alone in that last scene.

Edited August 30, 2017 by WhiteStumbler

[janjan]

Speaking of all alone, Lena Headey's face-acting was superb when Jaime walked away from her. The look on her face showed that she knew she had just lost her long-time love and her last more-or-less human ally (which doesn't include Qyburn and Mountain), but her love of power prevented her from calling him back.

Will we ever get to see Mountain's new face? The bit that shows through his face plate is blue! Eek!

[gingerella]

2 hours ago, janjan said:

But . . . but . . . but, Jaime has already saved Brienne -- twice! He went back and snatched her out of the bear pit, and he prevented Locke's men from raping her (at the cost of his hand). He admires her, perhaps as the chivalrous ideal that he himself aspires to but can't quite achieve, though I'm not sure he is attracted romantically. Tormund, OTOH, wears his heart on his sleeve. Brienne seems to be more confused and embarrassed than repulsed. When he leers at her, she looks down or away - she doesn't look daggers at him. Betcha she's afraid he will mock her, like the boys Renley rescued her from.

So my money is on Tormund, assuming he isn't squashed under a falling Wall. Jaime, finally broken free of Cersei's spell,  will set his cap for Brienne, but he will finally find how much his devotion to Cersei has cost him (as Olenna predicted). Brienne respects honor. The hairy Wildling has honor, but the elegant nobleman does not.

THIS..above! I also think Brienne has no romantic love experience other than her semi-tepid pining for Jamie. But as Janjan says, she values honor and word above all else, it's the credo she lives each and every day since she met Cat Stark. It's like she was looking for a just and noble cause and she found it in promising to serve and protect the Stark Sisters, basically until her last breath. And Tormund is just like her, but the Wildling version...She is refined and tough, He is rough and tough, but they both have a soft spot for another in the right circumstances...Ginger Babies I predict, sorry Llywela, it's gonna happen!

2 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

Where was Bronn? I find it ludicrous that Jaime would leave KL without at least Bronn.

Well, wherever Bronn is, there too us Podrick, and I doubt that Pod would abandon Brienne so I'm guessing Bronn may join Pod and get out of dodge to reunite/reignite his bromance with Jamie. Though that said, Bronn's become a bit of a wild card this season. Seems his main motivator is becoming the Lord of some Manor somewhere. Perhaps if he stays behind, Cersei will give him Highgarden for his loyalty to her? Of course I cant see Bronn being that dumb but...the dude is guided by gold and wealth. He said he loves being called "m'Lord" and that means he was given some title as a reward already...but no castle and that is what he keeps opining about...a castle...

7 hours ago, Llywela said:

It didn't look as if Tormund and Beric could possibly have survived - but while watching, I wondered if what we were seeing in that scene was actually happening in realtime, Bran watching it happen in the present...or if it was one of Bran's visions of the future, which Team Living will now have to work to prevent.

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck! Llywela, this is brilliant! Now THIS is a plot twist that I would welcome! Yes!!! May the Old Gods and the New hear this and Let.It.Be.So. That would be a fantastic twist. I can see the S8 opening scene now...Tormund and crew are on watch at the top of East Gate and A Viewer is like "WTF, I thought they were dead and the Wall was down???" and we scan the northern horizon and there are no WWs or Zombonies, only snow and forest and the Wall is intact. Then we see a crow - which now that I remember it, we DID see a lone crow trying to fly in the snow over East Gate right before we saw Tormund, didn't we?!? - anyway, we see the crow again over East Gate and then CUT to Bran waking up under the Weirwood tree, realizing what he just saw and saying, "I have to get word to Jon NOW!" Then we see the rest of the final season about maintaining the Wall, etc. I'll bet if that happens we will finally learn more about the magic that was built into the Wall.  Ooooooo, this would be the BEST THING to happen to A Show since Sansa killed Bolton and LF!

ETA: I would forego Ginger Babies for the above to be what's coming...!

Edited August 30, 2017 by gingerella

[janjan]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

I would forego Ginger Babies for the above to be what's coming...!

I want Llywela's spit and ginger babies, too!

And Bronn to find Jaime and get a castle, too. And Arya to hook up with Gendry. And Varys not to die. And the Egg Man to find out that Dany is his auntie and say, "Yech!" And Ser Davos to live happily ever after. And Cersei not to. And Urine neither. And Tyrion to be Hand when Eggie sits on the Iron Throne, with Ghost at his side.

That's not too much to ask, is it?

[gingerella]

32 minutes ago, janjan said:

I want Llywela's spit and ginger babies, too!

And Bronn to find Jaime and get a castle, too. And Arya to hook up with Gendry. And Varys not to die. And the Egg Man to find out that Dany is his auntie and say, "Yech!" And Ser Davos to live happily ever after. And Cersei not to. And Urine neither. And Tyrion to be Hand when Eggie sits on the Iron Throne, with Ghost at his side.

That's not too much to ask, is it?

I would add to that, maaaaybe Jon and Lady Lyanna when shes a few years older? And Dany to realize Jorah has always been The One for her...I had thought about Jon and Sansa but he views her as his sister even though shes now a cousin. Sansa deserves to know what a loving mate is like after all shes endured...

[Llywela]

Hehe. I still don't want the ginger babies. I'm just so tired of seeing the same tired trope in film and literature - a bloke sees a woman he fancies and admires her her from afar, while she displays no interest in him whatsoever and they in fact have little or no actual interaction on which to build a connection, still less a relationship, but then they get thrust together anyway so that his devotion to his mental image of her can be rewarded. It's a trope that really puts my back up. If she's going to get paired off with anyone (no reason she should be, really, given that everyone should be a bit preoccupied with the zombie apocalypse next season), I'd rather see Brienne with Jaime, with whom she has an actual relationship built on mutual trust and respect, having spent actual time together (albeit a while ago now). With Tormund, all she has is lustful glances from him from which she has turned away in what looked to me like disgust rather than confusion. They've never even shared a conversation, know absolutely nothing about one another - just because Tormund fancies what he sees doesn't mean she has to reciprocate! That isn't a slight against Tormund, who I really like as a character, and sure, his thing for Brienne adds a humorous shade to his character. It's just the trope that's a pet hate of mine wherever I encounter it - reading Anna Karenina was an exercise in gritted teeth for just that reason (so much worse in that case, because Levin is one of the major protagonists, with whom we are clearly meant to sympathise, but I spent most of the book wanting to reach into the page and smack his self-absorbed, whiny, entitled backside out of it!) But, you know, horses for courses. This show has had plenty of dubious relationships!

I had something else I wanted to say, what was it? Someone up-thread commented that what's-her-face Sand - Ellaria? - should still be alive somewhere under King's Landing. That thought occurred to me too while I was watching this episode, and I wondered if she might still come into play again somehow next season? If she were freed from her cell, for whatever reason, she could still be a formidable wild card.

That wasn't the thing I wanted to add. What was it? Argh, I can't remember.

...I still can't believe my joke suggestion that Rhaegar and Lyanna might have been secretly married to make Jon legitimate actually came true. I mean, I shouldn't be surprised, since it's exactly the sort of thing we should all expect from this show, really, but I really did mean it as a joke! And actually, picturing both Jon's and Dany's faces when they find out is still absolutely hilarious to me, so the joke still stands.

But damn. Now I'm remembering way back in season one, in that first episode, when Jon was kept away from the royal party when they came a-visiting to Winterfell (he didn't even get to join the feast, as I recall). And at the time we all thought it was Cat driving that, being mean to the bastard she resented...but now I'm seeing Ned's hand in it. Of course he wouldn't want Jon anywhere near Robert, however well he'd kept his deadly secret. And he did keep it well. Even the people who knew Ned best, none of them have ever doubted for a moment that Jon is his son. He went looking for his abducted sister, and turned up again with a newborn baby that he claimed was his from an affair with a camp whore he never named - honourable Ned, who was married with a child, who had never been known to frequent brothels - and no one ever questioned it for a moment. Because Ned Stark did not tell lies. Because claiming that child damaged his marriage, and why would he do that to his family if it weren't true? So no one questioned it - we have never seen anyone questioning it, not ever. Thinking about it, I'm suddenly really impressed with Ned for pulling it off!

4 minutes ago, gingerella said:

I would add to that, maaaaybe Jon and Lady Lyanna when shes a few years older? And Dany to realize Jorah has always been The One for her...I had thought about Jon and Sansa but he views her as his sister even though shes now a cousin. Sansa deserves to know what a loving mate is like after all shes endured...

Would cousins who grew up as siblings really be any less squicky than aunt and nephew who met for the first time as adults and got together without knowing they were related?

I'd rather not see any big age gap relationships, especially not between much older men and young women they first met as children. Even Arya and Gendry would be pushing it, for me.

[gingerella]

Llywela, my squick factor reflex has been severely reprogrammed for A Show after enduring Twincest. Joffs, Ramsey, Cerei, and now Urine...

[WhiteStumbler]

45 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Now I'm remembering way back in season one, in that first episode, when Jon was kept away from the royal party when they came a-visiting to Winterfell <snip> ...but now I'm seeing Ned's hand in it. Of course he wouldn't want Jon anywhere near Robert, however well he'd kept his deadly secret.

Great insight. I raise a mug of grog to you!

9 hours ago, Llywela said:

...or if it was one of Bran's visions of the future, which Team Living will now have to work to prevent.

I don't think Bran can see the future. I don't remember any of his visions including anything that is definitely in the future. From the finale...
Bran: I can see things that happened in the past. I can see things happening now all over the world.

I am 99.999% sure that The Wall...came tumblingtumbling, doooown. (sorry)

[janjan]

55 minutes ago, WhiteStumbler said:

I don't think Bran can see the future.

Yeah, there's been no indication that he can. Also, it would bring up disturbing issues of free will: if the future is seeable, then presumably it's unchangeable. So why bother doing anything.

But didn't Jojen claim to see the future? (I don't remember. I've caught LLywela's Forget-Bug.)

[Anothermi]

I am very late joining in. My apologies. The timing of the last episode for this Season was... unfortunate...to say the least.

On 2017-08-27 at 10:38 PM, Pallas said:

A rich conclusion, with what felt like as much plot as other eps this season, yet a number of sustained scenes and character notes.  A Show felt like A Show.  

Over all I think I can agree with your assessment, Pallas. Quite a number of scenes affirmed the reason for my loyalty to A Show, and they went deep.

One thing I've appreciated and relied on from this show is that if they show you something in Season 1, it usually continues to have relevance thought the following seasons. There is continuity. And they give clues as to what may occur. Usually we've only seen them in retrospect, but they were there and it was assumed we would get it at some point. This applies to plot, yes, but most significantly to character. It is that attention to detail that has kept me coming back. This episode, despite it's foray into cheap bait-and-switch tactics (Littlefinger's trial), won me over completely by rounding off Theon's personal growth arc. Yup. That's all it took.

Of all the members of the Stark Household that we met in Season 1, episode 1; Theon has had the longest and the most affecting (to me) story arc. We found him suspicious, we despised him, we wished he would DIE!!!, we tired of his torture, we hoped for redemption and then we saw him as hopeless and worthless as he, too, saw himself. I suppose there is more to come for him, but this episode had me hearkening back to a post I made back in season 2 back on TWoP. (and yes, I saved our one-thread-for-all-unsullied. But finding things in it is more than daunting!)

Here is the relevant part of my post:

Quote

S02E06: The Old Gods and the New:

Poor Ser Roderick was spot on. Theon is well and truly lost now. He is neither a true Stark nor a true Greyjoy. His decisions to use advice from either side culminates in the worst possible result. Stark's treat their enemies with respect, Greyjoy's make them pay the iron price, but a Stark who passes the sentence must wield the sword... and on and on. He's never going to get the respect he craves. He has no idea who he is, and he can only dig himself deeper and deeper until he dies a humiliating death - whether that be sooner or later doesn't matter.

They delivered that possibility way back in season 2, and now 6 years later, A Show has given me all this - down to the humiliating "death of Theon" at the hands of Ramsey. THIS episode gave him permission, via Jon, to be who he really is. A little bit Fish, a little bit Wolf. NOT a shark on a mountain top. I found myself choking up during that scene. (Jon may need Theon to repeat his own words back to him next season).

I'm seeing parallels between Theon's arc and Jaime's. Both were brought up with contradictory "ideals". Jaime's were summed up beautifully in that quote that janjan provided above:

Quote

So many vows. They make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Obey your father. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. What if your father despises the king? What If the king massacres the innocent?

He's been struggling between his King's Guard training and his father's expectations... to start... and then found that seemingly everyone cherry picked what is right, depending on the circumstances. (Except Ned? That may be why Jaime goaded him back in the 1st scene between them in the throne room at King's Landing. Jaime wanted to find the chink in Ned's honour. It was Varys who found one.)

I agree that this IS the first time he has chosen to stick to an honourable commitment he was part of making. I also believe it is because of the presence of Brienne, who has always seen in him the man he wanted to be. She didn't entice him or threaten him. She just spoke to him as a man who would act with honour. He's been aware that he is no longer part of "no one but us" with Cersei since she told him she was pregnant and would name him the father... and then threatened him never to betray her again. That helped him make the decision to fight for "the pack" as Ned would say rather than be a few Lone Lannisters fighting against everyone and everything.

I think there are a lot of "Theons" and "Jaime's" in our world, not just in A Show. Trying to live up to what they are supposed to be. And doing terrible things. So if Theon's arc were to end right away? I would still be satisfied. Jaime? He need more time.

There is a lot more to mull over but I've just got to get this out of the way for now.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Anothermi
clarity

[WhiteStumbler]

1 hour ago, janjan said:

But didn't Jojen claim to see the future?

He did! This is from S3E02:

Bran: Does it (the Three Eyed Raven visions) have anything to do with warging?
Jojen: No, the raven is something different, something deeper. The raven brings the sight.
Bran: Seeing things that haven't happened yet?
Jojen: Or things that happened long before you were born or things that are happening right now thousands of miles away.

And this from S4E05:

Jojen: I have the sight. I can see things.
Karl Tanner: That's very helpful.
Jojen: Things that haven't happened yet.... <snip> I saw you die tonight. I saw your body burn. I saw the snow fall and bury your bones.

And when Jojen has died and Meera and Bran reached the 3ER cave in S4E10:

Meera: My brother, he led us to you and now he-
RootDude: He knew what would happen. From the moment he left, he knew... and he went anyway.

But I don't think Bran can, because I can't find him explicitly saying he can. From S7E03:

Bran: It (being the 3ER) means I can see everything. Everything that's ever happened to everyone. Everything that's happening right now. It's all pieces now, fragments. I need to learn to see better. When the Long Night comes again, I need to be ready.

And S7E07:

Bran: I can see things that happened in the past. I can see things happening now all over the world.

It almost seems like Jojen could see the past, present, and future, but Bran can only see the past and present. Huh.

[Pallas]

13 hours ago, Llywela said:

It seemed to be fire, but white-hot fire rather than red-hot. But if the dragon is dead, and fire kills zombies, how can it breathe fire at all now?

Viserion is a White Flyer now. He was made by the actual touch of the Night King. So it would seem only dragonglass or Valyrian steel can end him.  

 

On 8/28/2017 at 1:39 AM, DirewolfPup said:

I still wonder how the High Seption rationalized an annulment to an already married Prince with children. Seems unordinary.

We don't (yet) know the grounds of the annulment. Was Ellaria secretly married before she wed the Crown Prince? Was the marriage somehow illegal by the terms of the Dorne/Seven Kingdoms truce of a few hundred years previous -- something someone like Tywin or Varys might have been tasked to discover by either Aeryn or Rhaegar?  

I feel Varys was in on the annulment, remarriage and pregnancy, but may not have known that the baby survived. But he'll be able to confirm the annulment and marriage to Dany. When he chooses Jon over her, and betrays his last monarch. 

I think what Tyrion said to Bronn hit a chord, and Bronn took Pod off to inquire about changing sides. When Jaime arrives in Winterfell, he'll find Bronn already there, with Pod and Brienne. Not to mention Brandon, who Jaime doesn't know can now identify him as the person who pushed him out the window, for love of Cersei. Lady Stark's son; Lady Stark's brother. Jaime won't win Brienne; Bran will forgive him before Brienne would. 

But he'll fight the good fight, and die for it: either returning to King's Landing to kill Cersei, or remaining to fight at the Starks' side. 

Why not a match between Sansa and Brienne?  They find each other admirable, unique and mysterious; desire can be born of that. Sansa may even have been a bit put out to see Arya best Brienne, and Brienne seem to enjoy it. Each loved or had a crush on a handsome blonde Lannister lord -- father and son, even -- and each loved or had a crush on one member of the same gay couple. Perhaps because neither has yet known where to look, neither has found someone meant to receive the full measure of her devotion. Someone, in Ned's words, "brave and gentle and strong."

[janjan]

13 hours ago, Pallas said:

We don't (yet) know the grounds of the annulment. Was Ellaria secretly married before she wed the Crown Prince?

Hmmm, interesting. Someone upthread already mentioned the case of Henry VIII, who got an annulment from Catherine of Aragon when he had already fathered Mary. Of course, he had to disown the Pope and Catholicism to do it. The scenario you cite fits better the case of Edward IV, although in reverse. When he died in 1483, his son briefly became king of England, but then it was discovered that Edward had secretly married someone when he was a teenager (only way to get laid, no doubt). Ergo, his son by his later marriage to a royal wife was illegitimate. So the crown passed to Edward's younger brother Richard. third of his name.

Richard III had the misfortune to be defeated in battle by Henry Tudor, whose line was thoroughly illegitimate, having descended from the widow of Henry V and her wardrobe master, Owen Tudor. If your claim is shaky, it's a good idea to demonize your usurpee, so you can say you only did it for the good of the realm. Honest, Ma! It's also handy if your granddaughter is the patroness of the greatest dramatist in the English language, someone who can make the charge stick.

So if Dany gives the Egg Man a hard time about the succession, she'll be in the position of Richard III -- arguing about the legitimacy of her older brother's offspring. But her argument isn't as strong as Richard's, assuming Sam can produce the High Septon's diary.

Of course, all this assumes that Team Living ends up winning. If not, the succession issue is moot.

Edited August 31, 2017 by janjan

[janjan]

4 hours ago, Pallas said:

I feel Varys was in on the annulment, remarriage and pregnancy, but may not have known that the baby survived. But he'll be able to confirm the annulment and marriage to Dany. When he chooses Jon over her, and betrays his last monarch. 

And she burns him alive! Eek!

 

4 hours ago, Pallas said:

Why not a match between Sansa and Brienne?  . . . . Someone, in Ned's words, "brave and gentle and strong."

Sansa and Tyrion?

[ChocButterfly]

11 hours ago, Pallas said:

We don't (yet) know the grounds of the annulment. Was Ellaria secretly married before she wed the Crown Prince? Was the marriage somehow illegal by the terms of the Dorne/Seven Kingdoms truce of a few hundred years previous -- something someone like Tywin or Varys might have been tasked to discover by either Aeryn or Rhaegar?  

Maybe but war would have happened either way. As the case of Henry VIII, you just can't dissolve a royal marriage like that. He had to brake up with the Church and that cost England future hereditary wars and conflicts. The same would have happened with Reaghar and Elia, although worst, because she already had a male heir....who, by the way, was named Aegon as well?? Really, WTF is up with that? Llyana had a weird sense of humor.... 

Reaghar and Lyanna weere very selfish, if you think about it.

14 hours ago, Anothermi said:

He's been struggling between his King's Guard training and his father's expectations... to start... and then found that seemingly everyone cherry picked what is right, depending on the circumstances. (Except Ned? That may be why Jaime goaded him back in the 1st scene between them in the throne room at King's Landing. Jaime wanted to find the chink in Ned's honour. It was Varys who found one.)

He pushed a little kid down a window and still hasn't shown remorse for that!!!! That's my problem with Jamie, for all his tribulations, sense of honor, doing the right thing for his people and whatever, we don't see him even once being remorseful about making Bran a cripple, or the fact that you know, he could have killed him, no matter what selfish reasons he had to do it. Any normal person with a conscience would be HAUNTED by that. It makes him seem like a sociopath with no soul. I don't see any redemption for him until at least he acknowledges that. But even then, it's been 6 years, and he never seemed to care, a little caring now wouldn't be enough, so, yeah, he has no redemption for me.

Count me as another who would like to see Brienne and Thormund together. And I also don´t think Brienne sees him with disgust, she just doesn't know how to react to him. Remember she's kind of gruff when it comes to affection, or somethingg, I don't knnow how to say it in English well.

Quote

Sansa and Tyrion?

I'd like that.

 

Oh, And I agree with KFH, I don't think Bran can see the future for now. He specifically said he can only see the past and present. Maybe in a future he will learn to see it.

Edited August 31, 2017 by ChocButterfly
Spelling, the usual.

[janjan]

2 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

Maybe but war would have happened either way. As the case of Henry VIII, you just can't dissolve a royal marriage like that. He had to brake up with the Church and that cost England future hereditary wars and conflicts.

Yeah. Henry's VIII's daughter by Catherine was called "Bloody Mary" for a reason. But only for about 5 years. The accession of her half-sis Elizabeth, "Good Queen Bess," ushered in one of the longer periods of peace in England, at least until the Stuarts started warring among themselves, as had the Plantagenets before them. The Wars of the Roses, on which GoT seems to be based, went on for some 30 years, as rival Plantagenet houses battled for the throne. Aside from Mary, the Tudors were a peaceable bunch.

[gingerella]

Choc, I have a feeling that if/when Bran and Jamie meet, Bran will be totally unphased and say something along the lines of, "You had to push me so that I would become crippled and be able to become the TER..." I honestly don think Bran will care, though I'm sure his siblings will.

WHERE IS GHOSTIE BOY? Where did we last see him? I remember hmm being in the room when Jon was brought back to life, but not since then.

[Pallas]

18 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Here is the relevant part of my post:

Quote

S02E06: The Old Gods and the New:

Poor Ser Roderick was spot on. Theon is well and truly lost now. He is neither a true Stark nor a true Greyjoy. His decisions to use advice from either side culminates in the worst possible result. Stark's treat their enemies with respect, Greyjoy's make them pay the iron price, but a Stark who passes the sentence must wield the sword... and on and on. He's never going to get the respect he craves. He has no idea who he is, and he can only dig himself deeper and deeper until he dies a humiliating death - whether that be sooner or later doesn't matter.

They delivered that possibility way back in season 2, and now 6 years later, A Show has given me all this - down to the humiliating "death of Theon" at the hands of Ramsey. THIS episode gave him permission, via Jon, to be who he really is. A little bit Fish, a little bit Wolf. NOT a shark on a mountain top. I found myself choking up during that scene. (Jon may need Theon to repeat his own words back to him next season).

I'm seeing parallels between Theon's arc and Jaime's. Both were brought up with contradictory "ideals". Jaime's were summed up beautifully in that quote that janjan provided above:

Quote

So many vows. They make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Obey your father. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. What if your father despises the king? What If the king massacres the innocent?

He's been struggling between his King's Guard training and his father's expectations... to start... and then found that seemingly everyone cherry picked what is right, depending on the circumstances. (Except Ned? That may be why Jaime goaded him back in the 1st scene between them in the throne room at King's Landing. Jaime wanted to find the chink in Ned's honour. It was Varys who found one.)

I agree that this IS the first time he has chosen to stick to an honourable commitment he was part of making. I also believe it is because of the presence of Brienne, who has always seen in him the man he wanted to be. She didn't entice him or threaten him. She just spoke to him as a man who would act with honour. He's been aware that he is no longer part of "no one but us" with Cersei since she told him she was pregnant and would name him the father... and then threatened him never to betray her again. That helped him make the decision to fight for "the pack" as Ned would say rather than be a few Lone Lannisters fighting against everyone and everything.

I think there are a lot of "Theons" and "Jaime's" in our world, not just in A Show. Trying to live up to what they are supposed to be. And doing terrible things. 

 

Anothermi, your post was a wonder. Your TWoP-era assessment of Theon's dilemma was spot-on, and I loved how you developed the concept further now, bringing in Jaime. Jaime, another man born heir yet somehow outdone by his sister. Theon acknowledges and honors Yara as his sister, his Queen and his better. He's proud of her; in her, he can see both Greyjoy and Stark virtues. Jaime, on the other hand, can neither acknowledge Cersei as his lover nor bring himself to do more than recognize her as the Queen: the Queen, not his.

Most of all: "I think there are a lot of Theons and Jaimes in our world, not just in A Show. Triyng to live up to what they are supposed to be. And doing terrible things." Brava.

[ChocButterfly]

3 hours ago, gingerella said:

Choc, I have a feeling that if/when Bran and Jamie meet, Bran will be totally unphased and say something along the lines of, "You had to push me so that I would become crippled and be able to become the TER..." I honestly don think Bran will care, though I'm sure his siblings will.

Oh, your're right, totally! Probably he won't even tell his sisters. He has stop caring about his former life. At least I'm glad he apparently had comunicated with Arya and Sansa about Littlefinger. I wish we had seen that on screen.

[Anothermi]

11 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

He pushed a little kid down a window and still hasn't shown remorse for that!!!! That's my problem with Jamie, for all his tribulations, sense of honor, doing the right thing for his people and whatever, we don't see him even once being remorseful about making Bran a cripple,

I absolutely see your point Choc. I still see parallels between Theon's character arc and Jaime's. I DID, however, indicate that I felt Theon had earned redemption but not Jaime. Jaime still has quite a ways to go.

Leaving Cersei to fight against the AotD was his very 1st step. He's nowhere near a platform, nor even a station, where he could possibly get aboard the redemption train. Up to this point he's had only one scene where he really questioned the decisions he's made and that was the bath scene with Brienne. I believe we all felt that would be a turning point for him... but it wasn't. Oh, he's been visibly uncomfortable with many of the choices he's made in order to stay with Cersei since then - which makes me believe he thinking differently than when he pushed Bran out the window - but he's done NOTHING about that. His lowest points: losing his sword hand; and soon after realizing he'd lost, or was losing, his bond with Cersei (she was cold to him when he returned and unsympathetic to his plight) did not make him question himself as thoroughly as Theon's experience at the hands of Ramsey did.

When Theon was made to watch Ramsey's treatment of Sansa in Winterfell - and did nothing -  he developed such a hatred of himself that he no longer feared that Ramsey might kill him. If he was going to be dead inside, he might as well do one final good thing whether it killed him or not.

Theon was aware of how horrible he had been and didn't believe he deserved forgiveness. That was why I was so moved by the scene with Jon.

Jaime?... yah..no. He is not aware. His character arc may never be enough to satisfy me either. I need to see him feel some remorse when/if he encounters Bran. And before he knows Bran doesn't really care about it. In Season 1 Jaime callously told Tyrion that he would rather be dead than live as a grotesque (and he was referring to Bran at that point!!!) but he's been living as one since early Season 3 and I don't see him being glad he lived.

But I don't hate him, not the way you seem to.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Anothermi
clarity

[WhiteStumbler]

Just realized the dual meaning of the episode title "The Dragon and The Wolf": Sure, obviously Jon Egg-Man and Dany, but also Lyanna and Rhaegar! 0_o

[DirewolfPup]

3 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

Just realized the dual meaning of the episode title "The Dragon and The Wolf": Sure, obviously Jon Egg-Man and Dany, but also Lyanna and Rhaegar! 0_o

If we're being literal, Jon-Egg is technically a dragon-wolf hybrid. So he and Dany would be dragon-wolf on dragon. (Rule #34 anyone?).

[Anothermi]

I did a rewatch last night and found a few things that I hadn't noticed the first time. I know I was looking forward to the "reunions" of many of the characters who had shared significant time together in previous seasons. Significant both in duration and meaningfulness. A Show did this with the meeting at the Dragon Pit. They encapsulated the connections with surprisingly short, but pithy interactions. I, for one, was satisfied. There was both catch-up and exposition/confirmation embedded in that scene. With no wasted dialog.

Tyrion and:  (he had the most "catching up" to do)

Bronn - and, yes, they still have their bond, forged with gold but maintained with shared experience and humour.

Podrick - they also maintain their warmth and respect due, in part, to Tyrion's respectful interactions with Pod, and of course to the fact that Pod saved Tyrion's life.

Jaime - they exchanged a great "WTF is He with You?" look when Urine interrupted Tyrion's opening remarks to taunt Theon. Jaime gave the equivalent of a "not my doing" look. Then when Urine went on to taunt Tyrion Jaime actually spoke up and suggested to Urine that he sit down.  (followed swiftly by Cersei commanding it). Nothing seems to have altered the brotherly bond.

Cersei - this one was not brief, but it was pithy. Tyrion still wants the love of both his siblings and knows she hasn't got it in her, but still hopes for some regard for family from her.  Cersei is so hardened at this point that they only "agree" by not arguing about Joffrey - whom they both acknowledged was not a good person way back when Cersei imprisoned and threatened Roz thinking she was Tyrion's whore. Of course this was not unexpected. The fact that Cersei didn't have him killed may derail Tyrion's judgement at some point, because he still thinks she's got a heart.

Brienne and:

Sandor - I liked that there was tension between them when she fell back to walk with him. I think she was not unhappy that he was still alive. She believed he might want to know about Arya - even though at the time she believe he intended harm to her. Their brief exchange re: Arya was enough to convey to both that they were now allies. (I think of it as a Davos-like exchange. No waste wordage - unlike me.)

Jaime - They only saw each other in passing as Cersei's retinue arrived and seated themselves. But there was an exchange of looks here too, just before Dany arrived on Drogon. It was very brief and non-committal, but Cersei caught it.

Their exchange where Brienne appeals to his rational side and shocks him when she says "Fuck loyalty" "This goes beyond Houses, and honour and oaths." showed him another side of her (who he may have perceived as his mirror opposite). I think it is what gave him the resolve to leave Cersei and her never-ending plotting. He even addressed that he could see them meeting on opposite sides of a battlefield and seemed to accept that, albeit with grimness.  But she offered the possibility of fighting together without all those contradictions that had made him so jaded. There was something bigger than the hamster wheel they'd been on.

Again, this addressed whatever it was I was hoping for in their meeting. Both complex and simple.

We got what we expected with the Urine/Theon reunion, except that Theon managed to hold himself together.  And it was refreshing to see that Bronn and Pod could still relate. I was with those who feared that exit was a prelude to an attempted ambush, but we are loyal Pavlovian Viewers: trained over 7 years to react like that at the slightest provocation.

The Clegane Bros Reunion was intriguing. I've been thinking of the Mountain[stein] as mostly brain dead. He never speaks, just obeys. Kind of a man-made version of a zomboni. (I'm not sure that he would squeal like a stuck pig, if he were captured, like the zomboni did.) I still think that is likely, but Sandor looked in his eyes and saw recognition. Sandor also showed some compassion when he wondered what "they" had done to him. I've mentally bookmarked this exchange as having possible future significance.

---------------------------------------------------

Other items of note:

- Shout out to current political circumstances with Jon's monologue about why he doesn't lie.

Quote

 

Jon: Talk about my father if you want, tell me that's the attitude that got him killed.

But when enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything.

Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies.

And lies won't help us in this fight.

 

- Winter is shown coming to King's Landing. Danaerys' vision from the tower in Qarth takes on more of a realistic feel. And now we know that It does snow in the south during winter.

Perhaps Viserion, namesake of Viserys, will be the one to destroy the very place that launched the Targaryen dynasty. Perhaps that is partly what happened in Old Valyria? Triggering the Volcano? Yeah. That was a "Take Cover!!" kind of spitball.

And lastly:

- There were holes shown in Viserion's wings as the Night King flew him over the AotD marching through the rubble of the Wall. (very neat and smooth pathways, I might add, excellent job!)  Those holes should compromise his ability to stay air born I would think. And the tears would just get larger due to the force he generates when using his wings, and especially when "hovering" in one place as he did to complete his destruction of the Wall. Guess the laws of aerodynamics don't apply in this world.

Edited September 2, 2017 by Anothermi

[janjan]

3 hours ago, Anothermi said:

No waste wordage - unlike me.)

Nay! Nay! Every word a gem, Anothermi! Great post!

[Anothermi]

Just want to give a shout out and a High Five to @Glory for receiving the MAA (most accurate assessment) Award re: the meaning of Sansa's "look" after seeing Arya best Brienne in their sparring.

Long story short. Glory saw Sansa assessing Arya as an asset and on her team. Proven to be true in this ep.

Where are you Glory?

[Glory]

On 9/4/2017 at 2:01 AM, Anothermi said:

Just want to give a shout out and a High Five to @Glory for receiving the MAA (most accurate assessment) Award re: the meaning of Sansa's "look" after seeing Arya best Brienne in their sparring.

Long story short. Glory saw Sansa assessing Arya as an asset and on her team. Proven to be true in this ep.

Where are you Glory?

WooHoo!! I won something! 

I'm here guys! My works has kept me busy so I haven't gotten to post on the finale, but I'm so excited! 

I watched that entire interplay between Sansa and Arya and Littlefinger with true glee! My husband had been spitballing the last few episodes that Arya WAS Littlefinger and that had wormed its way into my head, so when Littlefinger was up against the wall and still alive I almost shouted with excitement because I knew Sansa wasn't dumb enough to attack Arya in the middle of Winterfell!

I really want to know what Tyrion's look was all about at the end when Dany and Jon were making whoopie. I honestly have no idea what it could mean so that will be something to ponder for the next two years. 

But Cersei, sheesh. She really is just a vindictive, power-crazed bitch. I was hoping that there would be a little bit more to her, but it seems she is just as ruthless as she seems. 

[gingerella]

2 hours ago, Glory said:

I really want to know what Tyrion's look was all about at the end when Dany and Jon were making whoopie. I honestly have no idea what it could mean so that will be something to ponder for the next two years. 

Glory, I am convinced its because it will get in the way of the war that needs winning in order for the living to survive. If they are in love, and all googly eyed at each other, their heads arent 100% in the game, and Tyrion knows that he needs both of them to be 110% on point in order to battle and win what's coming at them now.

[Glory]

15 hours ago, gingerella said:

Glory, I am convinced its because it will get in the way of the war that needs winning in order for the living to survive. If they are in love, and all googly eyed at each other, their heads arent 100% in the game, and Tyrion knows that he needs both of them to be 110% on point in order to battle and win what's coming at them now.

I hope this is it! I don't want it to be something sinister - which I'm assuming is what the directing and lighting was all about. Having him creep about in the shadows and such. 

OH! And I almost forgot! TORMUND! He is NOT dead. Right? RIGHT?! Not dead. 

[janjan]

2 hours ago, Glory said:

TORMUND! He is NOT dead. Right? RIGHT?! Not dead. 

Clap Clap  <sprinkles fairy dust> Clap Clap. Come on, Tormund - you can make it! Clap clap.