The Wizard of Lies (HBO) - General Discussion

[Macbeth]

The HBO movie about the Bernie Madoff $65 billion dollars ponzie scheme.  It stars Robert DeNiro and Michelle Pfeiffer.

So many lives were ruined.  It has a spooky detached feeling.  I think the mistake was the interviewing Madoff in prison approach.  He can say he's sorry and he understands what he did was wrong, but it was clear there was no feelings behind it, especially as one of his own children committed suicide.  Those scenes offered no revelations for me at least.

  I agree with reviewers that there should have been more pre-fallout scenes as they clearly showed how cruel he was and why he did what he did.  And DeNiro really shines in those scenes.

I am a major Michelle Pfeiffer fan.  I was worried about her accent being too thick, but I think it works.  She was fantastic. And the one bit of comedy was when Ruth and Bernie Madoff try to commit suicide with ambien while watching "Meet Me in St. Louis."  For that scene alone - this is a much watch.

Granted that the one piece of comedy is an attempted suicide probably means this is not for everyone.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Macbeth

[meep.meep]

I liked the performances - Pfeiffer and DeNiro were fantastic.  But, I kept thinking that they were trying too hard to convince us that the sons and brother had no knowledge of what he was doing.  And they failed.  I don't know one way or the other.

Why not focus on the testimony of the people who working with Bernie on the Ponzi scheme:  Frankie and the bookkeeper?   We don't even find out what happened to them.  It was weird to hear Hank Azaria talking without his Brockmire voice!

I assumed that Pfeiffer based her accent on recordings of Ruth Madoff's voice.

[Macbeth]

3 hours ago, meep.meep said:

I assumed that Pfeiffer based her accent on recordings of Ruth Madoff's voice.

Actually Michelle did visit Ruth once.  And it was after that visit she was no longer nervous with the accent she was using.  I don't believe DeNiro ever visited Bernie.

[txhorns79]

Quote

So many lives were ruined.  It has a spooky detached feeling.  I think the mistake was the interviewing Madoff in prison approach.  He can say he's sorry and he understands what he did was wrong, but it was clear there was no feelings behind it, especially as one of his own children committed suicide.  Those scenes offered no revelations for me at least.

I agree.  It was like they were scared that having Madoff show emotion might humanize him and make him seem sympathetic, so instead they went the opposite direction where he's mostly a blank slate.  I think aside from that very emasculating scene between he and his son (where he essentially forced his son to eat lobster instead of steak), most of the way he acted towards others within the movie was more about maintaining his Ponzi scheme than how he actually felt.   

[lovinbob]

That lobster scene was so weird. In fact, the whole party was bizarre. All of those people watching the family dance together ... yet in several of the scenes, there was so much open hostility within the family. So strange.

Michelle Pfeiffer was great. It's been so long since I've seen her in anything—really great to see her. And DeNiro disappeared into this role. 

The sons were very well cast. Alessandro Nivola, in particular, looks a lot like Andy. --> Editing to add: I hadn't finished watching when I posted this. Realizing now that Alessandro Nivola was actually playing Mark. I do think he bears a much stronger resemblance to Andy, but now it all makes more sense to me. 

It really is interesting that the movie seemed to take such a strong position that the boys knew nothing. While I'd like for that to be the case, it strains credulity. 

I definitely preferred this presentation to the ABC version featuring Richard Dreyfuss. The ABC version told the story more, but this felt like a more thorough investigation of Bernie Madoff's character, which is what is fascinating to me. 

Edited May 23, 2017 by lovinbob

[Armchair Critic]

I watched the ABC version with Richard Dreyfuss/Blythe Danner when it originally aired so it's been a little while but I think I prefer that version, although I do adore Michelle Pfeiffer and liked her Ruth. But the downside of that version is that Dreyfuss may have made him too likable.

[txhorns79]

Quote

That lobster scene was so weird. In fact, the whole party was bizarre. All of those people watching the family dance together ... yet in several of the scenes, there was so much open hostility within the family. So strange.

The group dancing was strange.  With the hostility, I think they were trying to show how controlling Bernie was with the family to explain how it could be possible that the family had no idea what he was doing.  Though given the magnitude of his freakouts at even the slightest question about his business, you'd think they would be more suspicious. 

[Macbeth]

Unfortunately I come from a dysfunctional family like that - and you are just trying to survive yourself, and will do anything to prevent the tirades.

Bernie had major credentials - his son listed a resume that makes you a candidate for Treasury Secretary.  He was the former chairman of Nasdaq.  It appears it wasn't the entire business just one segment that they didn't have access to.  The sons were working for the front organization that was legitimate or the sons would have been sent to jail.

This wasn't a boiler-room scheme where you target the vulnerable elderly and pray the cops don't sniff you out.  Major banks invested with him.  The books were examined by the SEC.  People who should have known better invested with him.  But that is typical of the entire 2008 collapse.  It appears maybe Andy was suspicious -but he said that he checked and verified that his father's investments panned out.

Most importantly the movie demonstrated how Bernie worked to emasculate his sons, so they wouldn't look to closely.

The fact that the sons turned him in when they found out, and had absolutely nothing to do with him after shows how utterly betrayed they felt with the revelations.  That's why I believe them txhorns79.

[geekgirl921]

I have no idea why but we seem have a Bernie immersion because CNBC has been showing the Dreyfuss version and I have been watching both and am vaguely obsessed. I do believe that both of the sons did not know; both of the movies make the point that Bernie made a very concerted effort to keep them out of it and away from the criminal parts. The impression I get from the Dreyfuss version that the brother had an idea that something wasn't right but didn't know exactly what and chose not to look or investigate. I also thought it was sad about how much death there was after all of this.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The Wizard of Lies received four Emmy nominations:

OUTSTANDING TELEVISION MOVIE

OUTSTANDING LEAD ACTOR IN A LIMITED SERIES OR MOVIE - Robert De Niro

OUTSTANDING SUPPORTING ACTRESS IN A LIMITED SERIES OR MOVIE - Michelle Pfeiffer

OUTSTANDING CASTING FOR A LIMITED SERIES, MOVIE OR SPECIAL

[Macbeth]

I am so thrilled that Michelle got nominated.  DeNiro was good but he has been feted very well for his talents. 

Michelle has never even won an academy award.  She definitely deserved it for her role in Dangerous Liaisons.  She was playing against type there. 

So I am happy.

[Hanahope]

I didn't pay all that much attention to the whole Bernie Madoff scheme in 2008-09 as it occurred, dealing with a host of my own issues and at the time, I thought most of those that lost money were rich and given my struggles, I wasn't terribly sympathetic.  I do understand that some people weren't rich who lost money and I do feel bad for them.  But for most of us middle-class people, we barely have money to properly fund a 401k or IRA, let alone have extra money to invest in other stocks and such.

So I had hoped this movie would give me some decent info about the situation, but I thought it was pretty opaque.  Other than one scene where Bernie was talking to Frankie about setting this up after the 1987 wall street meltdown (which was still pretty vague), there was nothing.  there was no real explanation as to what the sons'/brother did that would explain how they had no idea the entire investment part of the business was a fake, i.e. what else did the business do?  I didn't get that at all.  Frankly, the Big Short explained wall street investments, CDOs and credit default swaps all so much better and I think those are probably a lot more complicated than a ponzi scheme.

What happened to the brother?  What happened to Frankie and the other 17th floor employees who had to know something was hinky?  What was the outcome of the clawback suits?  Did Frankie have to give up his ill-gotten gains?  the other 17th floor employees?  anyone else?  Even a post-script with some additional info would have been welcomed to those of us who weren't reading newspapers about it.

I do feel a bit sorry for the sons, assuming they really were in the dark.  Obviously Bernie trying to "protect them" did absolute nothing, and likely made it worse, for the older son for sure.  Talk about a classic sociopath.

And while, yeah DeNiro, frankly the character was so bland I can't really applaud any "acting".  "Acting" bland is easy.  Pfieffer, though, did a very good job.