S05.E08: Immersion

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 9:10 PM, millennium said:

The Americans featured a Russian-language portion from the start but it was originally centered on the Russian embassy in Washington, which made perfect sense given the storyline.    ...

I think the show would be better if they pulled out of Russia and got back to the Embassy.   

The Rezidentura was in upheaval at the end of last season.  Arkady was expelled from the country, as I recall, and Oleg was either called back or decided to leave.  Tatiana was put in charge, but otherwise, the characters we knew best are no longer there.  I'm among those who is finding Oleg's "readjustment" to Russia fascinating but MMV.

[albaniantv]

This show appeals to viewers for an array of different reasons, something that the writers probably can't let themselves get distracted by.

I love all the glimpses of Russia, Russians, the language, as well as the KGB and Rezidentura characters and angles. Always wish I knew what was real and which details about 1980's life in Soviet Russia are adapted for sake of plot or streamlining. I don't much like Gabriel but that doesn't stop me from wanting to attach a camera-bug to his collar so i can watch him adjust to life back home after so many years away.

[Roseanna]

On ‎26‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 6:34 AM, sistermagpie said:

Elizabeth always has her past handy to explain herself to anyone--Philip, Paige, Brad the sailor, Betty... Philip's still almost always just on defense reacting.) I know I should have been happy with a scene as emotional (in theory) of Elizabeth telling Paige she'd been raped, but maybe it just doesn't land the same way since both those scenes seemed to be about Elizabeth once again gearing up to prove that working for the Centre was a great life choice for Paige. And now she's got Granny on her side about it. 

Are you sure? Elizabeth told Claudia that she wanted Paige have a great ideal and when Paige asked what she would do if she wasn't a spy, she answered a doctor in a Place in a Place where there was no help otherwise. Maybe Elizabeth will be content if Paige will a chose a profession where she can help the others like a doctor or a scientist? 

[Roseanna]

On ‎26‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 6:56 AM, Umbelina said:

Speaking of Oleg, it could be his house was tossed because

• He looked at his mother's prison file
• The CIA ratted him out anyway because they are pissed at the FBI
• He's in big trouble with the Mob or KGB who are the real controllers of the stolen food
• Nothing at all, or he's just been in America too long, or his connection with traitor Nina is known

 

They searched for evidence (good that he destroyed it!) which points out that he was was betrayed by the Americans.

The sentence of Oleg's mother was surpisingly short.  

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Are you sure? Elizabeth told Claudia that she wanted Paige have a great ideal and when Paige asked what she would do if she wasn't a spy, she answered a doctor in a Place in a Place where there was no help otherwise. Maybe Elizabeth will be content if Paige will a chose a profession where she can help the others like a doctor or a scientist? 

I think Elizabeth is conflicted about the whole thing but would be proud of Paige being that kind of doctor. I think I was speaking more in a meta-sense of how the scenes would read. Elizabeth definitely has moments where she's *against* Paige having the life she has, but she also sometimes thinks it's what she should want for her, and also I think she sometimes fears that if Paige isn't in the life she'd be separated from her.

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

They searched for evidence (good that he destroyed it!) which points out that he was was betrayed by the Americans.

 

Wouldn't a search apply to anything, or just work as an intimidation tactic? (Although I think we know he's suspected, at least, of involvement with the Americans without necessarily being tipped-off by the Americans.)

Edited October 3, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Roseanna]

On ‎26‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 7:18 AM, Dev F said:

when Elizabeth explains to Paige what she focuses on instead of the memories of her assault, she talks about her duty and her children -- not mentioning Philip at all.

It seems odd but one must remember the situation: Elizabeth talked to Paige who had just left Matthew, so it wouldn't be a good idea to say: "I learned that I can fully trust in your dad and with him I feel safe."

[Roseanna]

On ‎26‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 5:55 PM, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, Elizabeth's spent her whole life making sure she believed that love is something that's meant to be sacrificed for the Cause. She doesn't want to touch the feelings she has underneath where she feels rejected and used, especially by her mother who "didn't blink" before choosing to send her out of her life. I think she keeps trying in some ways to have it both ways. By sacrificing Paige to the cause, just as her mother sacrificed her, she can both reinforce the idea that Paige herself shouldn't matter so much and also keep Paige tied to her in ways her mother didn't keep the two of them tied. The Cause becomes an excuse to stay close to Paige.

Likewise, her whole relationship with Gregory was full of the two of them agreeing that the Cause was more important and he died the way he was supposed to for it, not knowing that Elizabeth had actually moved on from him. Of all the people in her life Philip seems to be the biggest threat to this belief system because of his doubts. She obviously doesn't want to give him up--he's easily the best human connection she has. But not only does she continually have this quasi-cheating relationship on him with the Centre (whether the Centre is personified as Claudia, Gabriel, Gregory or Zhukov), she can't even seem to face honorable discharge.

And I do think that part of her attitude in this ep was in reaction to Philip telling her what Gabriel said--like how dare he make that suggestion that it's bad to put someone in this kind of life. He loves them and he's a good man. There couldn't possibly be more to know. Why is anyone even thinking about the Purges? Elizabeth knew the camps existed. What else is there to know?

It's interesting that P&E's reactions are opposite than the fate of their fathers. Elizabeth's father was a deserter, and if she had a different character, she would fee pity towards him and be angry towards the Soviet state that killed him.  Philip's father was a guard, and if he had a different character, he wouldn't have any doubts but defend the purges as necessary although admitting that some mistakes were made.

To Elizabeth, losing her faith in Communism would mean that she had lived and worked her whole life in vain. Yet, one can't never know how a person acts as Nina showed us.   

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

It's interesting that P&E's reactions are opposite than the fate of their fathers. Elizabeth's father was a deserter, and if she had a different character, she would fee pity towards him and be angry towards the Soviet state that killed him.  Philip's father was a guard, and if he had a different character, he wouldn't have any doubts but defend the purges as necessary although admitting that some mistakes were made.

 

Yeah, and I also wonder how their ages play into it. Elizabeth learns of her father's fate when she's young and is very passionate about the war. That kind of feeling shaped who she was and her father's death just became part of that same narrative.

Philip finds out about his father at a time when he's questioning everything he's done and sacrificed and that probably affects the way he reacts to it.

It's also interesting that neither person really had a relationship with their father. Elizabeth's father was always a fallen soldier. Philip's father is someone he only has vague memories of that he didn't fully understand. Neither of them has the ability to understand the person on his own terms or know why they did what they did. And their mothers don't help them there either. (Though to be fair these aspects of their character seem pretty fixed and not changing with age.)

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

To Elizabeth, losing her faith in Communism would mean that she had lived and worked her whole life in vain. Yet, one can't never know how a person acts as Nina showed us.

Yes, I think this is a major theme in the show. I don't think Stan knew if he was going to hand over the Echo information to save Nina until he knew. Philip in season 1 seems to suggest he'd immediately give himself up if captured by the FBI, but when confronted with the fake FBI agents he holds firm. Nina was really conflicted between wanting to survive and wanting to do the right thing--if she'd been all about survival she probably wouldn't have confessed to being the mole in the first place. Elizabeth spends a long time impatiently wanting to tell Paige the truth, but when the time comes she chokes and it's Philip, who was always against it, who's able to start.

[SusanSunflower]

I had to laugh when Paige said Elizabeth had no bedside manner, coming after Elizabeth lightly but bluntly demanding to know if Paige was sleeping with Matthew ... of course she wasn't ... Paige isn't "that kind of girl" ... My mother tended to be similarly matter-of-fact no-romantic-sentimentality-allowed about sex ... somehow part of her brand of feminism that was sex positive, but like Elizabeth suggested that sex was something that might well make you do "bad" or "dangerous" or "reckless" things...  certainly the number of marriages of friends' parents that broke up during my teens over infidelity suggested a very very powerful force indeed.  I had to laugh and wonder how well Paige would countenance P&E majick bed hopping in service of the motherland ... not well. 

This struck me two fold -- first reminding me of how unsympathetic/supportive P&E are to Tuan's constant references to the suffering and losses of his short life ... at the same time, both P&E grapple with reevaluating and "wallowing" in the hardships of their own (which barely compare).   We don't know much about Tuan, but few among us would thrive being left "home alone" for days and nights, weeks on end. 

Related, is how deaf and cold both P&E are to Tuan's isolation.  He asked for a puppy to keep him company, maybe just to give him a pretext for walking around the neighborhood at night (something that might otherwise raise questions -- with no puppy -- with neighbors). Tuan resents the hell out of Pasha's whiny complaining ... I'm guessing he's none too impressed with P&E and would loathe Paige on principal.   Tuan can't have friends over when P&E are out of town, again, likely to raise too many questions or invite temptation.  (I was an extreme latchkey kid ... other kids, accustomed to being supervised, often act badly when "home alone", while latchkey kids have been trained to be very cautious and avoid the prying questions of "well-intentioned" neighbors and teachers).  

P&E were (pleasantly) surprised by Henry's sudden academic prowess (apparently to impress a girl -- which they still haven't recognized) and greeted the news less with an "AttaBoy!" than with a "Who knew?" ... still not really seeing Henry as more than a reflection of their parenting/genes.  They really need to reassure Paige that she can and will have choices and the ability to have her "own life" ... or she will find the family secrets even more burdensome if tinged with resentment of Henry's relative freedom to choose his own independent path. 

Gabriel reminded me of Scrooge in Christmas Carol (old fashioned traditional version) having been visited in the night by ghosts from his past.  So many horrors over these last 4 seasons ... starting with the first illegals' second generation ... probably ending with William's last minute revelations as to his lonely despondency (relevant to Tuan) preceding his "ultimate sacrifice" for the cause.   P&E's relationship with the Centre may go to hell in a handbasket quickly without Gabriel's long-standing "support" and comfort giving "good father" (which they both have needed) ... with Claudia the Witch -- the demanding bad mother in charge. 

The theme of this season seems to be "sins of the fathers and mothers" ... what we can and should forgive because of circumstances, "fate", and -- likely -- how one reconciles one's personal legends (about one's family and history) with evidence that some of those we love have done truly terrible and/or despicable things. 

Phillip was likely bullied by the neighborhood thugs because his father was hated for being a prison guard ... the bullying led Phillip to commit a brutal crime in revenge that has haunted him, raising questions about his own "true nature" ... Elizabeth is the product of her icy "survivor" mother; Elizabeth still unaware of how unseen those around her feel and what that will -- likely -- ultimately cost her ... 

Edited October 19, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

sorry bad idea.

Edited October 20, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Roseanna]

On ‎19‎.‎10‎.‎2017 at 7:55 PM, SusanSunflower said:

Phillip was likely bullied by the neighborhood thugs because his father was hated for being a prison guard ...  

I think Phillip's father was already dead at the time he was bullied. If he had been alive, the boys wouldn't have dared to bully Phillip whose father could have caused harm to them and their family. Nor would they have even wanted to because as Pioneers they would have believed that there were only "people's enemies" in the camp.  

[Roseanna]

On ‎19‎.‎10‎.‎2017 at 7:55 PM, SusanSunflower said:

Related, is how deaf and cold both P&E are to Tuan's isolation.  He asked for a puppy to keep him company, maybe just to give him a pretext for walking around the neighborhood at night (something that might otherwise raise questions -- with no puppy -- with neighbors). Tuan resents the hell out of Pasha's whiny complaining ... I'm guessing he's none too impressed with P&E and would loathe Paige on principal.   Tuan can't have friends over when P&E are out of town, again, likely to raise too many questions or invite temptation.  (I was an extreme latchkey kid ... other kids, accustomed to being supervised, often act badly when "home alone", while latchkey kids have been trained to be very cautious and avoid the prying questions of "well-intentioned" neighbors and teachers).  

You interperet splendidly why Tuan loaths Pasha's whinging - but the same reason applies to P&E's relationship with Tuan. When they were in Tuan's age, they were in the spy training and we have seen how hard it was. If one hasn't got empathy, one can't give it.

Also practically, Tuan is a agent which is like being a soldier. If he wanted to be treated like an American teenager by his doting parent, he should have stayed in his foster home (of course we don't know if he was a choice).     

[SusanSunflower]

Tuan's calculations -- means to an end -- are very cold, but he has strong feelings, emotions and is jealous of Pasha and, well, everyone, because he's very angry (understandably) about his losses and his isolation.  He's something of a shell-shocked survivor.  He shares with Elizabeth a sense of being the determined somewhat romantic hero of his own movie and a noble soldier for the cause, good versus evil, us versus them 

Elizabeth's emotions wrt being a mother and having recently destroyed Young Hee's happy marriage and family surfaced in her condemnation of Tuan's "plan".  See also Elizabeth as "Patty"'s faked pregnancy and suicide's role in trying to blackmail Young Hee Seong's husband.  Pasha contrived "cry for help" suicidal gesture (since his parents were failing to decide to move back to Russia) ... hare-brained and certainly unethical -- rather echoes Patty's suicide and the arrival of her brother ... as Tuan said , it worked.   ((I can't remember if the Don Seong operation was a "success" because I can't remember its objectives))

 

If Phillip's father being a guard at a camp did not relate to the family's circumstances during his childhood, I'm not sure why that news was "devastating" --particularly with the now-too-familiar rationale for all sorts of things based on how desperate things were the time.  I'm genuinely asking because there's a great deal of "acceptance" of terrible things (the Stalin years) done because there was no alternative and/or resistance was both futile and likely suicidal.  We don't know that Phillip's father was "one of the bad ones" ... even if there probably were few if any "good ones".  I thought Philip was trying to understand why he personally was so consistently brutally bullied ... lord of the flies ... children emulating the adults, maybe? 

ETA:  Wasn't it out of character for P&E to agree to not include IHOP in their report ... and why don't they want to know if there really is a "foster brother with leukemia"?  I'd bet that there isn't but that Tuan calculated that P&E would avoid letting the Centre know about IHOP because of how it reflected on their management of Tuan.  

Edited October 22, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I think Phillip's father was already dead at the time he was bullied. If he had been alive, the boys wouldn't have dared to bully Phillip whose father could have caused harm to them and their family. Nor would they have even wanted to because as Pioneers they would have believed that there were only "people's enemies" in the camp.  

Yes, his dad definitely died when he was 6 and this was when he was ten. Elizabeth asked him if those kids could have been the sons of the men who glared at him and his brother as kids, but Philip didn't know if they were or not. It's possible Elizabeth was making a connection where none existed.

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

You interperet splendidly why Tuan loaths Pasha's whinging - but the same reason applies to P&E's relationship with Tuan. When they were in Tuan's age, they were in the spy training and we have seen how hard it was. If one hasn't got empathy, one can't give it.

Also practically, Tuan is a agent which is like being a soldier. If he wanted to be treated like an American teenager by his doting parent, he should have stayed in his foster home (of course we don't know if he was a choice).    

It's also hard to tell what's going on with Tuan really. Philip and Elizabeth both project onto him, but it's easy to do that as a viewer as well. They're not his parents, they're his co-workers. Is he using his job as a cover for loneliness and anxiety? Is he genuinely judging them as bad agents because they're not there as much as he is (we know that they have far more demands put on them than Tuan does so that's unreasonable).

14 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

((I can't remember if the Don Seong operation was a "success" because I can't remember its objectives))

Yes, it was. They wanted security codes from him and they did get it via this plan.

14 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

If Phillip's father being a guard at a camp did not relate to the family's circumstances during his childhood, I'm not sure why that news was "devastating" --particularly with the now-too-familiar rationale for all sorts of things based on how desperate things were the time.  I'm genuinely asking because there's a great deal of "acceptance" of terrible things (the Stalin years) done because there was no alternative and/or resistance was both futile and likely suicidal.  We don't know that Phillip's father was "one of the bad ones" ... even if there probably were few if any "good ones".  I thought Philip was trying to understand why he personally was so consistently brutally bullied ... lord of the flies ... children emulating the adults, maybe? 

I don't think Philip was trying to understand why he was bullied--Elizabeth brought up that connection and he seemed to be pretty neutral about it, just saying he didn't know. I figured his thoughts about his father were about projecting his own feelings about his own life onto him. He thought his father was a logger, but he was really a prison guard, which meant he might have been violent and killed people like Philip does. So the news about his father being a prison guard seemed to me to be more about Philip thinking he was destined to be a violent monster and that the Centre recruited him because they saw that potential.

For all we know, if the boys had any specific problem with Philip personally it was because he was too good a student--also seemingly the reason the KGB wanted him. (No actual evidence to think that, just speculating.) Maybe we'll finally get more information that will tie everything together in a different way.

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Tuan's calculations -- means to an end -- are very cold, but he has strong feelings, emotions and is jealous of Pasha and, well, everyone, because he's very angry (understandably) about his losses and his isolation.  He's something of a shell-shocked survivor.  He shares with Elizabeth a sense of being the determined somewhat romantic hero of his own movie and a noble soldier for the cause, good versus evil, us versus them 

Elizabeth's emotions wrt being a mother and having recently destroyed Young Hee's happy marriage and family surfaced in her condemnation of Tuan's "plan".  See also Elizabeth as "Patty"'s faked pregnancy and suicide's role in trying to blackmail Young Hee Seong's husband.  Pasha contrived "cry for help" suicidal gesture (since his parents were failing to decide to move back to Russia) ... hare-brained and certainly unethical -- rather echoes Patty's suicide and the arrival of her brother ... as Tuan said , it worked.   ((I can't remember if the Don Seong operation was a "success" because I can't remember its objectives))

- - -

ETA:  Wasn't it out of character for P&E to agree to not include IHOP in their report ... and why don't they want to know if there really is a "foster brother with leukemia"?  I'd bet that there isn't but that Tuan calculated that P&E would avoid letting the Centre know about IHOP because of how it reflected on their management of Tuan.  

It was out of Elizabeth's former character at the time when she reported on Phillip whereas. But even Elizabeth has shown that she doesn't always follow the rules, for ex. when she in S2 didn't tell the boy (cant' remember his name) that his parents were Russian spies because he was ok in his foster home - and in the end she was deceived by him. And as you show, Elizabeth had now many guilty feelings. So at this case at least she treats Tuan like a mother his errant son, not as an agent.

I was wondering if Tuan is asked to do that by Claydia, in order to show if P&E are to be trusted or if they have become too independent.   

[SusanSunflower]

I'd be cautious about assuming Elizabeth is feeling "guilt" rather than "regret" ... she misses Young Hee and the fun times with her family -- a "real friend" -- so much laughing (something conspicuously absent anywhere else in this series) ... I think that Elizabeth got a taste of how a happy loving (non-uptight) family interacts (too bad Philip, and Paige and Henry missed out on this, like some exotic dessert) ... I'd guess that she mostly feels her own loss..  Rather than "guilt", her personal take-away lesson may well have been to NEVER get so close ever again.  

Yes, I also wondered if Tuan might be doing double-duty informing on the Jennings... and absolutely Claudia would jump at the chance (and delight in Tuan's scathing assessment).  It really bothers me that neither Philip or Elizabeth gave a damn about Tuan's foster brother battling leukemia and/or the fact that it sounded as if Tuan had been keeping in touch with them -- as able -- all along.  They could have relayed the issue to Claudia to see if some actually safe channel of communication could be created to plug that threat to the mission's security/Tuan's cover and relieve Tuan's anxiety/sense of duty.  This isn't coddling Tuan, just acknowledging he's a 3-dimensional human being who was -- obviously -- willing to break rules and taken risks to contact his foster-brother.  If there is no foster-brother, the problem(s) multiply and become even more critical.  (I don't know if they had curfews for minors back then or how conspicuous an unaccompanied minor at 2 am taking a greyhound, mistaken for a runaway; mugged as an easy target, etc). 

Edited October 22, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[Umbelina]

I think they left Tuan out there with almost no support.  It's not about "coddling" him, at least not for me, it's about failure to do their job, which was to partner with a relatively new agent for a very important JOB.

He was posing as their child, and yet his parents were almost NEVER home.  He could not count on them, and could see that he would be the scapegoat for failing at this assignment, and he really didn't want to fail.  He left all kinds of messages for them, and they were too wrapped up in each other and Paige to do their jobs.

He came up with a solution, and frankly, it was a pretty good solution and it worked.  Had his partners bothered to ever listen to him, or return phone calls, they could have refined it, since they have been spies a lot longer than he has, and presumably know much more.  They should have also been aware of the loneliness factor, if only because they'd just seen what it did to William.  The dog solution was a good one, but again, they never gave one shit about their partner Tuan, or his logical "it would give me a reason to be out walking at night" problems.

Back at Center?  They wanted ONE thing, their goal accomplished.  Tuan did that.  Not Philip or Elizabeth, Tuan.

It's Tuan's job to report on them to Center, and I can't see him failing in that job.  He's a soldier, he should and will (IMO) report on everything.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think they left Tuan out there with almost no support.  It's not about "coddling" him, at least not for me, it's about failure to do their job, which was to partner with a relatively new agent for a very important JOB.

He was posing as their child, and yet his parents were almost NEVER home.  He could not count on them, and could see that he would be the scapegoat for failing at this assignment, and he really didn't want to fail.  He left all kinds of messages for them, and they were too wrapped up in each other and Paige to do their jobs.

I don't think they were just wrapped up in themselves like they were slacking off. As Elizabeth pointed out, they (unlike Tuan) have multiple jobs - and Paige is one of them. We saw them hanging out with Tuan as well and I don't remember him leaving all sorts of urgent messages for them where they were needed and he had to handle things himself, or leaving any phone calls for them they blew off. When he was alone he was just in the house turning the lights on and off. 

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

He came up with a solution, and frankly, it was a pretty good solution and it worked.  Had his partners bothered to ever listen to him, or return phone calls, they could have refined it, since they have been spies a lot longer than he has, and presumably know much more. 

He came up with a solution on the spot and did it so there were no phone calls to him to return.

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

It's Tuan's job to report on them to Center, and I can't see him failing in that job.  He's a soldier, he should and will (IMO) report on everything.

I assume he will, just like Elizabeth would have--especially since it was actually Tuan who ran off to another state to contact his family, a bigger breach of protocol than Philip and Elizabeth not being in the house with him as he thought they should be. Tuan's only thinking about Tuan. Philip and Elizabeth, as ever, are expected to care about everybody, including any new agent either of them is working with. (And at the same time get criticized for whatever people they're ignoring to focus on whoever is getting their attention at the moment--LOL!)

His report could certainly cause trouble for them, but maybe the most damning thing in it will be if he confesses his own crime to make Philip and Elizabeth look bad, the very kind of selfish thing that could very likely lead to the shorter career Elizabeth warned him about. Elizabeth's figured out how lucky she was to have the very partner she was trying to get rid of earlier. 

[Umbelina]

Maybe I just noticed it more.  Tuan repeatedly tried to get them to come over, sometimes it was just Philip or Elizabeth telling the other one "Tuan called" and the response something like a put upon sigh and saying maybe they should get over there in a few days or tomorrow, or whatever.  The whole dog thing.  Near the end he was telling them more forcefully they needed to be there more often.

You just cited another reason Center might be willing to dump Philip.  Yes indeed, the "old"  (pre in love with Philip) Elizabeth would have reported Tuan's error / breach of protocol immediately, as a good KGB agent should.  I can easily see that in their eyes, Philip's a bad influence on her. 

I disagree that Tuan was only thinking about Tuan.  He was thinking about his mission all the time, and not failing in that mission.  It's not as if he was out there with a girlfriend to dissuade loneliness, horrifying memories, and fears, he was certainly good looking enough to have one.

He wasn't spending his time at EST meetings.

Missions they had this season.

• The Tuan/Jennings JOINT mission about the defected Russians.  They each form relationships, Liz maybe once a week with the mom, Phil rarely with the dad (unless joint dinner/spy thing) and Tuan at least 5 days a week with Pasha.
• The Tuan/Jennings JOINT mission about retrieving the Lassa sample.  One evening.
• The Jennings stupid wheat mission, one day in Oklahoma to murder an innocent man.
• Elizabeth training Paige, while at home, which she would be anyway.
• The Jennings Deidre and Ben honey-trap, at most, one day a week each.  Then jointly steal a wheat sample, and Liz, pissed that Ben has another woman, decided to sreal a file from a psychiatrist containing the names and addresses of Soviet dissidents.  After this they both blow off the next week's honeytrap.
• Phil, bitching and moaning, goes to a ONE time meet with the dissident Russian priest because Gabe's gone.  Why Claudia wouldn't be the one to do that is beyond me, but whatever, he uses this "mission" (a few hours to meet with him) as a chance to set up a wedding for himself and Liz, so he spends more time thinking about "himself" than helping the priest.  Next "meet" is a surprise wedding.
• Next the Jennings (one day tops) go investigate and then murder the "Nazi collaborator" and her husband.
• Ongoing?  Kimmie, a once a week, sit and talk, smoke pot, steal the tapes mission for Philip, probably 2-4 hours a week for Phil.

So, nope, not that busy, not compared to other seasons.

• Phil?  Kimmy, and Deidre = 2 days a week.
• Liz?  Ben = 1 day a week.
• The Russian defectors and consult with Tuan?  Both whenever they feel like getting around to it.
• Wheat investigation?  2 days maybe total?
• Steal the wheat?  1 day total.
• Kill the Nazi and her innocent husband?  1 day total.
• Meet the priest as KGB job?  A few hours total.

Did I miss any?

Edited November 1, 2017 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

So, nope, not that busy, not compared to other seasons.

• Phil?  Kimmy, and Deidre = 2 days a week.
• Liz?  Ben = 1 day a week.
• The Russian defectors and consult with Tuan?  Both whenever they feel like getting around to it.
• Wheat investigation?  2 days maybe total?
• Steal the wheat?  1 day total.
• Kill the Nazi and her innocent husband?  1 day total.
• Meet the priest as KGB job?  A few hours total.

LOL! That's a ton of stuff regardless of how it stacks up against other seasons (also it leaves out running a business and raising their actual kids who also want them at home), especially compared to Tuan who's only job is to live like an American teenager. Sighing about having to go over to Tuan's doesn't mean they don't drag their asses over there for the job. Philip and Elizabeth both worked the parents well--their most valuable intel came from Elizabeth.

I'm not saying that Tuan is always wrong to wish they were treating this like their first big assignment like he is, but I can't blame Philip and Elizabeth for Tuan's actions and feelings because he didn't have spy mom and dad keeping him company and misses the nice foster family he pretends to disdain. He doesn't have any sympathy for Pasha's problems at school and I doubt he'd have any sympathy for Pasha wanting a puppy either. If he's anything like Elizabeth--and he does seem to be like her--it would be natural for him to conflate all his feelings with being for the mission and project his insecurities onto a convenient target--them. 

Edited November 1, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

Again, I'm not talking about Tuan's feelings, at all.  I'm talking about them letting him down as his assignment partners.

I disagree that they weren't busier in other seasons.  For example, Philip was running Martha and there at least twice a week, while also running Kimmie, and meeting with William on all kinds of secret chemical planning, stealing, and shoring him up, meanwhile more actively involved with Stan, going to EST, and helping run numereous other ops with or without Elizabeth.  Liz was training Hans, and, with Philip, running the Pastor and his wife, and also involved in the plot to kill them.  Both were coping with an out of control upset Paige as well.  Liz was deeply involved in the time consuming Young Hee operation too, as well as running Lisa, with Philip as back up, until she relapsed, and then coped with the murder and cover up.  Both Philip and Liz have to do the entire scam on Patty's husband.

These were not one off's, they were all ongoing ops, requiring more than a few days a week.

 

Obviously the Travel agency can run itself, they stop in there enough to keep up appearances, but anytime the KGB wants them to go anywhere, it's never been an issue, they just leave.

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Again, I'm not talking about Tuan's feelings, at all.  I'm talking about them letting him down as his assignment partners.

But it seems like "letting them down as his assignment partners" is being defined by Tuan wanting them around more rather than Tuan actually having to handle some crisis on his own or falling under suspicion because they're not there or not answering his phone calls. (While nothing he's done is letting them down.) He wants them to be living there the way the way Brad and Dee would actually be living there, as much as possible. Which would certainly be better, but the Centre chose these two (as usual) instead of assigning two people more like Tuan himself. He doesn't know anything about what else they're doing and he doesn't care. He wants their protection and approval, then he throws it in their face. And he wants a puppy...for the mission.

[SusanSunflower]

No, keeping Tuan "on the reservation" is part of job #1 ... and he made it clear that he had (somehow) been keeping in touch with Seattle all along -- as able, as "safe" ... 

Tuan gambled that he could travel out of state to contact Seattle without being detected ... without anyone noticing ...  His AWOL was detected because Elizabeth got really really annoyed to be wasting her time waiting for him to return ...  but she didn't care enough to ask after the foster-brother or wonder how many times Tuan had made that exact trip to some safe telephone (how exactly was it really "safe"? and was the exposure of a "child" riding a greyhound bus in the wee hours of the morning really "safe enough" to be some entre-nous "let's never talk about thts again"   -- again, not empathy, but not willing to be bothered with Tuan's little drama) ... 

This is going to explode like some crate of Roadrunner ACME TNT ...  Even when she discovered Tuan's deception, she didn't much care ... entre nous... let's pretend this never happened. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

58 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

This is going to explode like some crate of Roadrunner ACME TNT ...  Even when she discovered Tuan's deception, she didn't much care ... entre nous... let's pretend this never happened. 

But she was protecting him by keeping it entre nous.

 

ETA: Oh I think I see what you mean now. That she didn't actually talk to him about the brother. True. But that's also in keeping with the behavior she experienced her whole life so it's unlikely she's ever going to be that person even when she does care. This whole incident read to me as Elizabeth being nice to him.

In fact in this case that's probably a good thing because once Tuan got over his fright he'd probably use any petty bougeouisie sympathy she showed against her to make himself feel better about it.

Edited November 2, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

No, keeping Tuan "on the reservation" is part of job #1 ... and he made it clear that he had (somehow) been keeping in touch with Seattle all along -- as able, as "safe" ... 

Tuan gambled that he could travel out of state to contact Seattle without being detected ... without anyone noticing ...  His AWOL was detected because Elizabeth got really really annoyed to be wasting her time waiting for him to return ...  but she didn't care enough to ask after the foster-brother or wonder how many times Tuan had made that exact trip to some safe telephone (how exactly was it really "safe"? and was the exposure of a "child" riding a greyhound bus in the wee hours of the morning really "safe enough" to be some entre-nous "let's never talk about thts again"   -- again, not empathy, but not willing to be bothered with Tuan's little drama) ... 

This is going to explode like some crate of Roadrunner ACME TNT ...  Even when she discovered Tuan's deception, she didn't much care ... entre nous... let's pretend this never happened. 

 

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But she was protecting him by keeping it entre nous.

ETA: Oh I think I see what you mean now. That she didn't actually talk to him about the brother. True. But that's also in keeping with the behavior she experienced her whole life so it's unlikely she's ever going to be that person even when she does care. This whole incident read to me as Elizabeth being nice to him.

In fact in this case that's probably a good thing because once Tuan got over his fright he'd probably use any petty bougeouisie sympathy she showed against her to make himself feel better about it.

I think it's fairly common even in the most hierarchical organizations that one doesn't report on everything because everybody has some weakness. Keeping small errors "entre nous" may increase motivation and solidarity if one has made the right conclusion that it's not serious. 

As for giving empathy, that's depends on many things. What's good inside the family, isn't necessarily good in the army. Or what's good in the US, isn't necessarily good in Russia or Vietnam.  

[Umbelina]

Tuan was obviously struggling to keep up the appearance of a high school student because his parents were almost never home.  He did clever things with the lights as well, but neighbors NOTICE things like a high school student with no parents.  He also was responsible for some night surveillance, while avoiding FBI stationed all around to protect and or spy on Pasha's parents, and random police patrols or a nosy neighbor who might notice that "high school kid" out walking alone in the middle of the night, and call the cops.  Who would pick up the high school kid and probably take him home to...NO PARENTS.  If he was out walking a dog?  Neighbors relax, if some random police or FBI patrol saw him they might be less suspicious. 

The dog wouldn't fool the CIA though, almost all CIA agents in hostile cities had dogs, exactly for that reason, to avoid suspicion.  (From Bob Baer,s books.)  CIA Russia used them all the time in Moscow.

In addition, a lot can happen in a day with a volatile Pasha, some decisions made on the spot, others that he might need to discuss with his absent team members, some of those time critical, simply because he is a teenager. 

I feel like we are talking about apples and oranges here.  (insert smiley face, this isn't hostile at all, just friendly frustration as I feel like two different conversations are happening.)  The apples?  EMOTIONS.  The oranges?  OPERATION.

To be totally clear about what I am attempting to say?  Mine is all based the op, emotions don't enter in to this for me, and I don't think they did for Tuan at all, and certainly not for Elizabeth or Philip.

Tuan's frustrations, IMO, were purely professional.  He is task oriented.  He is relatively new on the job and proving himself.  He is quite frustrated with the lack of operational support from his team.  He wants their approval, not as a child wants approval from parents, but as a YOUNG operative wants approval by his peers and supervisors so he can keep his job and advance his career.  

His needs and desires are not based on emotions at work.  He is much like Elizabeth was in the beginning of her career.  He has no soft feelings for defectors and traitors at all, and sees this as a war, with war rules.  People die in war, as he knows, perhaps better than Elizabeth or Philip will ever know.  HE doesn't care if Pasha dies, it's not his GOAL for Pasha to suffer, but if Pasha must suffer to accomplish the task of getting Pasha's mother back in Moscow, then so what?  It's war.  Boo Hoo.  He's see worse, much worse, he grew up in it.  He hates the United States, for good reasons. 

Now in his personal life he grew to care about his US adopted sibling who is dying from cancer.  That embarrassed him, that he had feelings for someone who belongs to the country that decimated his.  That was Tuan's "personal life" and he clumsily tried to keep that from his professional life with the Jennings and their joint operation/task.

We all have sides to our personalities.  So does Tuan. 

What's getting in the way, perhaps, of this discussion and understanding one another?  I am talking purely about Tuan as a professional, and no, I don't think he was AT ALL emotional about this job or Philip and Elizabeth.  Was he maybe hoping for more collaboration and maybe even to learn more about being an effective spy from them?  Sure.  Of course.  Do I think his "feelings were hurt" by their lack of commitment to the operation, Tuan's first BIG operation?  No, I don't.  I think he was frustrated by it, and their casual "we'll it's not working so we will fail this one" attitudes.

Tuan wasn't about to fail, so he side stepped them, acted on his feet when Pasha mentioned suicide, and succeeded.  He will write/give and accurate report on them, as he should.  The Jennings became emotionally invested in the targets, they cared more about that then accomplishing their mission.  They left Tuan out there to hang with their lack of pretending to be his parents AND their willingness to let the op fail.  They even refused his request for a dog as cover.

Tuan was on this season to show us how far Elizabeth has come as a human being, and how she's no longer the effective agent she used to be, who would do anything in order to not fail at a mission. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I feel like we are talking about apples and oranges here.  (insert smiley face, this isn't hostile at all, just friendly frustration as I feel like two different conversations are happening.)  The apples?  EMOTIONS.  The oranges?  OPERATION.

I do think I understand that--and I agree that plenty of Tuan's frustrations were about oranges. I just don't think the show actually presented a plot about oranges. I don't think that all Tuan's frustrations are about his emotions--he *is* giving the mission more of his attention than the people assigned to him as his parents. That's even built right in--Tuan's assigned to live in that house every day. Him being there is like Philip and Elizabeth being at home in Falls Church. He was obviously told he was being given parents who would not really be living there, which is why they had the constant stories about them being away, but I can understand him still feeling like he was alone too much, especially if it's his first assignment and he wants to have these guys to lean on. He didn't know the Jennings had actual kids they were raising--I imagine that made him feel even more like this was some hobby for them (he doesn't know the kids are part of a cover they were ordered to have). We did see them talking about the best way to manipulate the Morozovs.

But I don't remember any actual story where Tuan was struggling with anything he could actually point to as a time when the mission was threatened because they weren't there, or where he would need to be out walking a dog at night. Or any logical connection between Tuan not having Elizabeth and Philip there with him going off to call his brother except that he used their absence to justify trying it. Just as Tuan isn't responsible for Philip and Elizabeth not being at the house, I don't think they're responsible for everything he did there. For the most part they took it as a given that Tuan was responsible for Pasha and respected him as the one who made decisions on the ground there. They just disagreed when they thought he made too extreme a decision, probably in large part due to their own different emotional state. And I think he resented it as well as seeing it as in conflict with the mission.

Edited November 2, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

 

But I don't remember any actual story where Tuan was struggling with anything he could actually point to as a time when the mission was threatened because they weren't there, or where he would need to be out walking a dog at night. Or any logical connection between Tuan not having Elizabeth and Philip there with him going off to call his brother except that he used their absence to justify trying it.

Tuan is ALL about the oranges.  He's, as I said, Elizabeth before she "fell in love" with Philip.

Yes, he TOLD them several times that they need to be there more, that it looks weird, that perhaps if he had a dog it would be less suspicious for him to be walking around the neighborhood all the time, especially late at night.  They blew him off every time.

[sistermagpie]

16 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Tuan is ALL about the oranges.  He's, as I said, Elizabeth before she "fell in love" with Philip.

 

But saying you're all about the oranges isn't the same as being all about them, as Elizabeth and Claudia both proved by doing things that were blatantly personal even while claiming to be the most loyal. When we met Elizabeth she was all about saying things were about the mission when they were about her. 

Of course many of Tuan's complaints are about the work and are more than reasonable. His complaints are not without merit at all. If he really thought the dog was so important, maybe he should have made more of a case for it than a passing hint Philip didn't jump on, either because his depression genuinely makes him not pay attention as he should or because he just saw the dog as a non-starter given all the problems it would also bring and ignored it. (Unless I'm forgetting another mention of it.) But that doesn't explain everything he does or bring everything back to P&E or create a crisis where one didn't happen. 

Basically, I *do* see Tuan as just like Elizabeth. That would mean that while he's completely fanatic about the mission, he's also prone to lying to himself and ruthless and personally treacherous with others when it comes to protecting his self-image. 

[Umbelina]

Tuan, to be more accurate, is like Elizabeth was when she was around his age.  She has more experience now, and falling in love with Philip has changed her.  I should have been more clear.

Tuan's so much like who she was, with much less training, and much less life and spy experience.

I do think Tuan was and is over-anxious to please and succeed, probably again, like Liz in the early years of her career.  Is he possibly bummed/pissed that getting to work with these two respected spies didn't result in him learning things that would help his future career?  My guess is yes.  Has his early probably very high opinion of them changed?  Again, I'd guess yes.  If for no other reason than they were more than willing to let this op fail.  For another, Philip's emotional and dangerous actions stalking off to save Pasha, with a helpless Elizabeth desperately trailing after him and both Tuan and Liz begging him to STOP.  THINK.  FBI everywhere watching.  They could have all been caught and jailed, had Elizabeth not saved it by grabbing his arm and slowing him down, hooking her arm in his and pretending to be out for a stroll.  Elizabeth and Tuan had the sense to be terrified.

Another thing on Philip's long record of being a loose cannon, a dangerous loose cannon that nearly cost Moscow 3 spies, and 2 potential second generation spies.

Being Tuan's FIRST big op?  He was not about to fail.  The stakes were different for Tuan and for the Jennings.  They have a track record, he's trying to build one.  If I were Tuan?  I'd be seriously pissed at both of them, and I'd report every single thing.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Umbelina