kismet June 9, 2015 Share June 9, 2015 To be honest, it is hard to justify or defend some of his motivations this season. I mean I love OQ and emotionally damaged people are usually my bread & butter. But man, I wanted to kick his ass a lot this season. Cmon, OQ just get it together for a full episode. The Brave & the Bold episode I think was one of the best to explain how OQ became who he is, why its is causing problems today and why it all boils down to who he thinks he is v. who he wants to be. It also presented me with the meta quote of the season when he told off Barry with the whole "I'm just not as emotionally healthy" as you. Its weak but I think the rationale behind why he couldn't be with Felicity and be the Arrow or be Oliver Queen. Was that he really didn't know who he was. So I just came from posting about identity in the bitterness thread. And now that I think about it, it makes sense that him being a lost soul and not knowing who he wanted to be was really the real reason that he couldn't be with FS. He spent the last 8 years being whoever he needed to be to survive, before that he was a good-hearted but pretty thoughtless man-child. Here was this amazing woman he found & loves deeply, but when he thought about what to he could reciprocate her love with he came up empty handed. They always say you need to know who you are before you enter a relationship with another person. OQ didn't know who he was or who he wanted to be. He's been back for 3 years and in that time he's played so many roles & had so many different identities that I think he just didn't know how to piece them all together and move forward with FS. Becoming Al Sha Him I think wiped the slate clean and allowed him the opportunity to start over again. So in the end, I think he finally saw the man he wanted to be. And because he finally knew who that was, he was willing to pursue a life with FS to further understand himself. He finally had something to offer that was not just a role he played as part of his survival techniques. I also think that Diggle pushed him too soon. I don't think he was ready to go on that date in the first episode. He needed more time, to get his shit together. I think he was finally adjusting to feeling "normal" again after the death of his mother. He was still trying to get back his company, repair the city from the damage Slade's vendetta against him caused. So its not a motivation for him, but he definitely was looking for an escape hatch should something go wrong. Then the torpedo happened and it was the perfect opportunity for him to just retreat back to his safety zone. Then Sara's death just helped put a stamp of approval on his I can't be happy, I will only hurt those around me, my choices will only lead to my death - which will then only hurt the people I love more. Self-sacrificing martyrdom is lonely road to walk. 4 Link to comment
tarotx June 9, 2015 Share June 9, 2015 (edited) Oliver had to be focused on the mission. If he let himself succomb to feeling instead of having a clear head he could lose himself into happiness. Then the mission is forgotten, his training goes out the window and everything is at risk of going wrong. It's about getting the mission right. Though Fecility's safety was a factor. If he's focused on her, his enemies will know and she's at extra risk and so is the mission. But mostly it's if he can't focus on the mission everything the mission protects is at risk. It's a complicated matter in his head built from all the years he was away from a core group, having a number of friends and family die from his decisions and just a lot of self disrespect. That self disrespect is intensified because Oliver believes Ollie was a rotten person before the island on top of all that has happened since the Gambit was sabotaged. Allowing his head to lose it's mind because of his heart is what he ended up letting happen wih Thea. When he came back from "dying" he knew that. He was scared of not being able to have anything. He was afraid the he would truely die alone and not just by himself. He was scared of dying without family and friends and without the one person that has kept him going. The Arrow. In Oliver's head, he had already lost Oliver Queen and the chance of personal happiness, he lost his parents, he lost Tommy and Shado and had been the cause of Slade. To lose the last vestige of strength made him put all claws out and fight. But he was fighting for the wrong thing. And it cost him Felicity to Ray and Thea to "death" and cost him Diggle's trust. Edited June 10, 2015 by tarotx 2 Link to comment
tarotx June 9, 2015 Share June 9, 2015 But after Fecility's speech and when he was fighting with Ra's in the final and Ra's was talking about how he had all these people who would remember him Oliver got it. Ra's had the mission but nothing else. No one to love and Morn Ra's the man specifically. All the people he was claiming would move on to the Next Ra's. It's the LOA mission and not friendship with the man that those men followed. Allowing the mission to rule will make you die alone. That's why Oliver took the time to be with Ra's and pray for him. Giving that man some comfort he didn't deserve but one Oliver hoped to have as he himself laid dying some day. Now Oliver knows that he has to let his heart have something. Life is short and dreams aren't enough to sustain him. Figuring out what he deserves and what balance he can achieve is still in front of him but he knows that he needs his heart to be happy if life is to matter. He's kind of where he was before finding out about Thea's father and that Slade was back and ready for revenge. Except it's more than a want for happiness and connection. He knows he needs it if he doesn't want to die alone. He still has a long way to go though.... 3 Link to comment
BkWurm1 June 9, 2015 Share June 9, 2015 (edited) So I don't think he was directly thinking, "I'm going to break this off with you to keep you, Felicity, safe," but more along the lines of, "When Oliver Queen wants happiness, he gets distracted enough that people (including Felicity) get hurt. So Oliver Queen can't want or have happiness and be Arrow at the same time." So, it was a decision indirectly based on keeping her safe, because I'm sure seeing her go all 'splodey panicked him a little. I suppose it's a calculated risk he's willing to take to have him work with her, since he can't Arrow without her. But he knew from experience that he could live with out her romantically, and wasn't willing to chance her safety. Or something. I see the distinction you are making. Back when he first brought her into his mission, he told Diggle he could keep her safe and if he felt that he couldn't do what he needs to do, then he would be breaking his promise but at the same time he has accepted that Felicity has made her own choice to accept the risks that their lifestyle entails and Oliver certainly has accepted letting her take those risks without a net when the circumstances require it. I want to say that Oliver has at least learned to let Diggle and Felicity make their own choice about what is worth the risk - he let Diggle go with him to Nanda Parbat on what was a virtual suicide mission and barely even stopped to question if Felicity would be ok with the Slade takedown- but keeping them in the dark about his ultimate plan regarding Ra's when he went into the LoA, that seems to be back sliding though it probably more about control issues than true reasoned concern about their safety. I felt that the reasoning behind the distraction comment was that Oliver only knew how to survive by keeping absolutely focused in the moment and laying it all on the line. It made me think of Gattica. In the movie the genetically superior brother couldn't understand why his weaker brother could defeat him in their endurance swimming contest. The key to his success was that the supposed stronger brother kept in mind his swim back to the shore and wouldn't use that reserve of strength whereas his brother used everything he had, never considering the future. The reality of the incident was that Oliver missed the bug and honestly, I don't think it had anything to do with him being distracted. Unless he had some bug searching protocols he skipped in his hurry to get to her, I don't think he'd ever had to consider someone planting a bug. I think he saw it as a early warning of bigger things. He missed something because his focus was on something else (again, like he wouldn't have missed it one way or the other) and then when he was fighting the new count he saw himself as his biggest fear. He tells Felicity he's afraid of what would happen if he let himself be Oliver Queen. He sidelined Diggle saying his risks shouldn't be Diggle's risks because he was going to be a father and have a life that Oliver couldn't have. This probably is why some thought pushing Felicity away was about keeping her safe since keeping Diggle out of the field was about keeping him safe but I think it's two different things since he never does anything to change Felicity's position on the team. I'm convinced that she became collateral damage in Oliver's "realization" that he couldn't have a family and a future since he'd vowed to be the Arrow and he was convinced that he couldn't be effective unless he fought like his life didn't matter. The error in that thinking is that while Oliver was willing to give his all as the Arrow holding nothing back, he didn't understand that fighting with a future in mind wasn't about mentally or physically making him hold back something in reserve, no, the connection and love he had and desire to see his future, that GIVES him extra strength to fight and get back home. That's the lesson he had to learn and what IMO they meant when Felicity advised not to fight to the death but to fight to live. BUT in The Calm (and I'm still bummed we never got an episode called The Storm) Oliver resolves his fears by rededicating himself to being the Arrow, simply taking any other options off the table. So instead of figuring out how to make things work at that point he was soooo certain of his choice that even under influence of Vertigo, he'd shut down his subconscious fears. Can you tell I did a quick rewatch to refresh my memory? - I can't believe how different the tone of the show was right up until Oliver grounds Diggle while Felicity cries in the foreground. Oh, and if Sara had lived how different things would have turned out. SHE probably could have smacked some sense into Oliver. Edited June 9, 2015 by BkWurm1 4 Link to comment
kismet June 9, 2015 Share June 9, 2015 (edited) BkWurm1 - We could still get an episode called The Storm... they haven't released the titles for the next season yet. It might work out somehow to bring OQ/FS back there is a major storm that decimates SC & requires them to return. I do like your point about Sara. I think if Sara hadn't died, OQ might have had an opportunity to see that what happened with the torpedo was not really a break in focus or a distraction, rather something that just happened. But Sara's death sealed the deal for him that attachments create collateral damage, rather than opportunities for greater strength & motivation (which is what Dig told him in s1 & FS in s3). He forgot that Diggle told him having something to live for is better than something to die for (or something like that in s1). Or like you said, she would have just knocked some sense into him. Edited June 9, 2015 by kismet 4 Link to comment
AyChihuahua June 9, 2015 Share June 9, 2015 So basically, he just needed to learn about this wonderful thing called "the happy medium." God he was such a dumbass in S3. He can figure out shot trajectories and curare cures and think tactically if not strategically in S1 and S2, but can't figure out the happy medium in S3. I so hope he stops eating lead paint chips in S4. 4 Link to comment
BkWurm1 June 9, 2015 Share June 9, 2015 BkWurm1 - We could still get an episode called The Storm... they haven't released the titles for the next season yet. It might work out somehow to bring OQ/FS back there is a major storm that decimates SC & requires them to return And now I'm crossing my fingers. I do like your point about Sara. I think if Sara hadn't died, OQ might have had an opportunity to see that what happened with the torpedo was not really a break in focus or a distraction, rather something that just happened. But Sara's death sealed the deal for him that attachments create collateral damage Yes that but I was specifically struck by the notion that Sara had already figured out what Oliver was just starting to struggle with. She says to him flat out, "We are not our masks and we need people in our lives who don't wear one." When she heard it through the grapevine Olive was pulling I can only be the Arrow crap, you know she would not have hesitated in telling him he was being a fool. 4 Link to comment
AyChihuahua June 10, 2015 Share June 10, 2015 When she heard it through the grapevine Olive was pulling I can only be the Arrow crap, you know she would not have hesitated in telling him he was being a fool. Man I love Sara. I would pay seriously good money for her to be all "What the hell, dumbass?!?" to Oliver. And maybe deck him for marrying her girl. 5 Link to comment
statsgirl June 10, 2015 Share June 10, 2015 Next season...I'd like to see Felicity really support Diggle in an ep. Maybe he learns something about Andy and needs all the support. We've seen Oliver do it already..I'd like to see others...Felicity and Thea mainly. I would agree... except that I'm still angry how many times Diggle failed to support Felicity this season. Draw Back Your Bow, where he told Felicity to come back because Oliver was losing his focus (inexcusable given his own actions in s1) and excluding her from deliberations in Nanda Parbat were the worst examples but it seems that every time there was a disagreement, Diggle chose Oliver's side instead of standing back and letting them work things out. Even when they thought Oliver was dead, there was only one brief scene between them, even less than Diggle got with Laurel. Yes, it's the fault of the writers, but I still have a hard time forgiving Diggle. Totally agree that he didn't think she was in love with him, probably didn't think that was even within the realm of possibilities, until she actually said it. IRL, if she'd said it much earlier I think there's a good chance they would have gotten together earlier. Unfortunately, this is a very predictable tv show, so it could only happen at the end of the season. So predictable. wanted to say that. When Oliver got back in 312, he said that Felicity was angry at him because she thought that when he came back, they could be together. Not that he'd gone to see Thea and Malcolm first and greeted Diggle and Roy with greater enthusiasm, not that she was justifiably angry that he was now preparing to partner with the man who had caused all these problems, but that he wasn't willing to be with her. So Oliver knew clearly how she felt about him. And I'm glad she didn't tell him she loved him earlier because there's no dignity in telling a man you love him when he's repeatedly pushing you away. I guess where we fundamentally disagree is I don't think Felicity's feelings for him impacted his notion that he couldn't be with her one way or the other. In fact if anything a declaration of love would only have made him even more certain that he couldn't be with her. Happiness and a future? Nope too distracting. From 3.1 until Ra's gave his offer, I don't think Oliver was anywhere near to considering actually going for it with Felicity. Actually, I'll say that maybe as he was preparing to face his death, he thought perhaps when he beat Ra's he could have a life with her but he didn't beat Ra's and I think he was totally certain that all he felt he could do was dream about that life at that point and that there wasn't a thing Felicity could have done to sway his mind. It was IMO only after he got failing to beat Ra's out of his head that he was in a place where he would even start to question his stance and yet in Suicidal tendencies he still repeated his stance on why they couldn't be together. See I saw that as him thinking she had moved on and so to hear she still loved him, that was the reason for his shock, not that her feelings for him one way or the other would impact his current opinion on if he could be with her or not. I agree that Oliver does suffer from believing he is worthy of love but I don't think that had any connection to his belief he couldn't be with Felicity and be the Arrow. I agree with all of this. He shut her out after the torpedo because he believed that his anticipation of their date made him lose focus, even though it was doubtful he could have picked up that bug any way and without the date the result would have been Verdant getting torpedoed. He only told her he loved her in The Climb because he was walking away from her again, and there was nothing in his return that indicated in any way he was willing to be in a relationship with her. In fact his lack of any explanation or discussion, effectively shutting her out not only emotionally but cognitively too, showed just how much he was shoving her away yet again. If Oliver was suprised to hear that Felicity loved him, it was because after his actions of this season, he no longer deserved it. 1 Link to comment
AyChihuahua June 10, 2015 Share June 10, 2015 "If Oliver was suprised to hear that Felicity loved him, it was because after his actions of this season, he no longer deserved it." I'm going to agree to disagree on that one. I feel confident that if anyone asked Oliver in episode 1, or 5, or 7, or 12, or 16, if Felicity was in love with him, he would be very sure that the answer is no. Has feelings for, sure. Cares for, sure. Loves in some way, maybe. In love with...no. I don't think he even had a clue until 19. 4 Link to comment
kismet June 10, 2015 Share June 10, 2015 Man I love Sara. I would pay seriously good money for her to be all "What the hell, dumbass?!?" to Oliver. And maybe deck him for marrying her girl. Would love to see that happen when she returns from the dead! I sorta want a quippy response like OQ gave Tommy in s1 about not finding the greeting card that apologizes for sleeping with your dead best friend's girlfriend. Something along the lines of I'm dead for 6 months and look what a mess you made. Or something a little better. I miss the dry humor of s1. 2 Link to comment
lemotomato June 10, 2015 Share June 10, 2015 "If Oliver was suprised to hear that Felicity loved him, it was because after his actions of this season, he no longer deserved it." I'm going to agree to disagree on that one. I feel confident that if anyone asked Oliver in episode 1, or 5, or 7, or 12, or 16, if Felicity was in love with him, he would be very sure that the answer is no. Has feelings for, sure. Cares for, sure. Loves in some way, maybe. In love with...no. I don't think he even had a clue until 19. I think Oliver has a hard time believing that anyone loves him, not just Felicity. She even calls him on it at the end of 3x19. ("You're so focused on the people you love, you forget to see that there are people who love you.") 6 Link to comment
MatthewtheRaven June 10, 2015 Share June 10, 2015 (edited) When Oliver got back in 312, he said that Felicity was angry at him because she thought that when he came back, they could be together. Not that he'd gone to see Thea and Malcolm first and greeted Diggle and Roy with greater enthusiasm, not that she was justifiably angry that he was now preparing to partner with the man who had caused all these problems, but that he wasn't willing to be with her. So Oliver knew clearly how she felt about him. And I'm glad she didn't tell him she loved him earlier because there's no dignity in telling a man you love him when he's repeatedly pushing you away. Actually, Oliver said no such thing. Neither did Felicity say anything about her being upset that he'd gone to see Thea and Malcolm first nor how he greeted Diggle and Roy; in fact, when she explained why she was upset neither of those were the reasons. The relationship between them is IMO implied by both but Oliver never states reasons she’s upset, just that it isn’t that he let them believe he was dead for weeks or aligning himself with Malcolm Merlyn, prompting her to explain why she’s really upset. When she does, when she tells him how, now he’s back, he’s aligning himself with a man who turned his sister, a woman he’s supposed to love, into a killer, who killed a woman he used to love and how she doesn’t want to be a woman he loves (ouch my brain) as necessary and painful as that may be for him to hear IMO he actually seems to understand it - why she’s upset with him and the choices he’s made - hence not fighting her on the matter or chasing after her once she tells him she doesn’t want to be a woman he loves. (Ouch.) The point of this is she too pushed him away here, IMO without a doubt rightfully so. I’ll get back to why I think it’s important to acknowledge that at the end of this. I agree with all of this. He shut her out after the torpedo because he believed that his anticipation of their date made him lose focus, even though it was doubtful he could have picked up that bug any way and without the date the result would have been Verdant getting torpedoed. He only told her he loved her in The Climb because he was walking away from her again, and there was nothing in his return that indicated in any way he was willing to be in a relationship with her. I didn't see it as Oliver telling Felicity he loved her only because he was walking away -- he told her because he loved her. He admitted to only being sure of two things: being willing to do anything to save his sister, and, when Felicity asked him what the second thing was, he admitted it was he loved her. He didn't expect anything from her in return. He told her because she asked and he loved her. Regarding his return and willingness to be in a relationship with her, while I think he still was at a point where he didn't believe he could be in a relationship with her yet, if ever, to be fair she didn’t give him a chance to say one way or the other. He announced he was teaming up with Malcolm; she expressed her frustration with that choice, letting him know she didn't want to be a woman he loved and walked away. I support Felicity in doing this and I'm not saying Oliver made the right choices, but I think it’s important to acknowledge Felicity justifiably and rightfully pushing Oliver away after aligning himself with Malcolm, because denying it or putting all blame on Oliver IMO denies her of what little agency she has. Hopefully season 4 will increase that agency and give her a storyline of her own, though I realize past writing speaks against that. But here's to hoping. Edited June 10, 2015 by MatthewtheRaven 7 Link to comment
statsgirl June 10, 2015 Share June 10, 2015 From 3x12: Oliver: I'm sorry. Felicity: For what? Maybe you could be a little more specific. For letting us believe your were dead? For weeks. Or for abandoning every principle you claim to have by getting into bed with Malcolm Merlyn? Oliver: That's not why you're upset. Felicity: While you were gone, for almost a month, I allowed myself to fantasize to dream that maybe, just maybe, Merlyn was wrong, that you were alive and that you would come back and that when you did you would be different, that almost dying would give you a new perspective on life, that you would just do things differently. Oliver: Things between us you mean Felicity: Before you left, the last thing you said to me was that you loved me. [Oliver nods] Now you're back, and the first thing you tell me is that you're working with a man who turned your sister, a woman you're supposed to love, into a killer that killed a woman you used to love. I don't want to be a woman that you love. Oliver knew in The Clam that Felicity didn't want to have The Talk because when they did, it would be over and she didn't want it to be over. If he didn't get from that conversation that she still cared very deeply for him and fantasized that they would be together if he ever returned, he's even more stupid than his enemies think he is. I didn't see it as Oliver telling Felicity he loved her only because he was walking away -- he told her because he loved her. But from her perspective, he only tells her he loves her when he's ending their relationship before it began (3x01) or when he's going off to get himself killed (3x09). Never when there is the chance they could get together, never when it will do her any good. Even in Nanda Parbat when they finally made love, it was under the belief that he would never get out of there to be with her. 4 Link to comment
MatthewtheRaven June 10, 2015 Share June 10, 2015 (edited) Oliver knew in The Clam that Felicity didn't want to have The Talk because when they did, it would be over and she didn't want it to be over. If he didn't get from that conversation that she still cared very deeply for him and fantasized that they would be together if he ever returned, he's even more stupid than his enemies think he is. This is Oliver Queen. Mr "Because of the life that I lead I just think it's better to not be with someone I could really care about" who in the episode you mentioned, The Calm, just admitted that maybe he was wrong with that statement -- only to, minutes later, have the vicinity go 'splodey injuring the person he not only really cared about but loved. Even if he understood she fantasized they might be together if/when he returned - which he still never said, stated or even claimed - it wasn't a possibility in his mind at the time that they could be. I agree, it's not fair of him to make that decision for them, which, again, makes Felicity's agency all the more important. He approached her after he returned and she stopped him. But from her perspective, he only tells her he loves her when he's ending their relationship before it began (3x01) or when he's going off to get himself killed (3x09). Never when there is the chance they could get together, never when it will do her any good. Even in Nanda Parbat when they finally made love, it was under the belief that he would never get out of there to be with her. Oliver’s life and mindset prevented him from telling her at any chance they could get together, because prior to sometime in the latter half of season 3 such a chance didn’t exist. In his mind, should be added. At least not after The Calm. He isn't telling her he loves her to get together with her; he is telling her he loves her because he loves her. He loves her regardless if they're together, separate, even when she's with someone else. That’s how love works. Edited June 10, 2015 by MatthewtheRaven 3 Link to comment
statsgirl June 10, 2015 Share June 10, 2015 (edited) I understand that from Oliver's perspective he knew he loved her but he thought that they couldn't be together. But from Felicity's perspective, to have the guy she loves tell her that he loves her only as he's walking away, every time, it's cruel. If he really cared about Felicity, he would have told her that he didn't love her, as she asked him to, and let her move on with a clear heart. That's how love works, you sacrifice your wellbeing for the wellbeing of the one you love, even if it takes a lie to do it. And when in 312 she told him that she still cared and still wanted to be with him, fantasized that they could be together (which IMO is a pretty clear statement of how she feels about him), he should have talked to her when she calmed down and explained, not take her frustration as the last word and shut her out even more. I don't admire Oliver's self-sacrificing attitude. It just makes me want to shake some sense into him. There's quite a bit of selfishness in his insistence on telling Felicity he loves her while he's refusing to be with her. Edited June 11, 2015 by statsgirl 2 Link to comment
quarks June 10, 2015 Author Share June 10, 2015 My take on this is a bit different. I think that after falling off the cliff, Oliver at least wanted to try again with Felicity - but after he defeated Ra's Al Ghul. After all, in episode 7, he did go over to Queen Consolidated to talk to her, and only retreated when he saw her with Ray. We don't know what he would have said, but based on his later response, he did realize he was in danger of losing her, and that angered him. However, in the next two episodes (including Flash), not only did Felicity not go out with Ray again (which, granted, Oliver might or might not have known about it), but she was clearly free to hop over to Central City and have a nice relaxing coffee date - and trusted that Oliver could and would help someone capable of running at superspeed. After they returned, Felicity had that moment of reminiscing about land mines - it took Oliver a moment, but I think he got it. And in episode 9, she didn't stop him from pulling her in for the forehead kiss, and he just came out and said it. And in episode 11, we saw him dreaming of saying that yes, he would stay - only to then dream of getting a sword in his chest - basically his subconscious telling him that he had to kill Ra's first. So I think he did return planning to say something. He did look straight at her when he finally returned to the cave, and he hugged her for a bit and told her that he was ok. And then, he decided to get the bad stuff out of the way first and made his little announcement about Malcolm, which - surprise - Felicity did not greet with a "Outstanding idea, Oliver! Teaming up with the mass murderer that just brainwashed your sister? YES LET'S DO THIS." He followed her out to the alleyway anyway, which suggests to me that he still wanted to say something - especially after Felicity admitted that she had been hoping things would be different when he returned. Thus his tiny kicked puppy standing in a rain of angsty writing look in the end there. 8 Link to comment
MatthewtheRaven June 10, 2015 Share June 10, 2015 I understand that from Oliver's perspective he knew he loved her but he thought that they couldn't be together. But from Felicity's perspective, to have the guy she loves tell her that he loves her only as he's walking away, every time, it's cruel. If he really cared about Felicity, he would have told her that he didn't love her, as she asked him to, and let her move on with a clear heart. That's how love works, you sacrifice your wellbeing for the wellbeing of the one you love, even if it takes a lie to do it. And when in 312 she told him that she still cared and still wanted to be with him, fantasized that they could be together (which IMO is a pretty clear statement of how she feels about him), he should have talked to her when she calmed down and explained, not take her frustration as the last word and shut her out even more. I don't admire Oliver's self-sacrificing attitude. It just makes me want to shake some sense into him. I'm vehemently opposed to lying to the people you love so I for one am super happy Oliver didn't lie to her and tell her he didn't love her. That would have made me respect him a lot less. I'm also glad he respected her and didn't follow after her in 3.12 after she stopped him from getting closer to her. 3 Link to comment
kismet June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 (edited) Gotta agree for all of his missteps I respected that OQ never lied to her about not loving her. And I also respect that he did not follow her or try to get closer to her after the whole woman you love speech. That would have greatly disappointed me if he went after her after she blatantly told him to back off. I know that is hurts people or they are mad at OQ for telling her that he loved her even though he was not willing to be in relationship. But I also see it as him trying to respect her in a way. He could have tried to be in a relationship even though he was not ready with her, but he didn't. That would have broken her heart even more for him to get into a relationship knowing that he couldn't not fully commit. He could have tried to pursue her or kept her occupied so that she could not pursue RP, but he did not do that. For as much as OQ was telling her that he loved her, he was also giving her as much space as she wanted. I don't see it as selfish that he told her he loved her, but couldn't be with her. He was simply stating a fact. I would see it as selfish if he knew he couldn't be with her and continued to tell her he loved and then stopped her from being able to live her own life. In many ways I see the way he treated LL as sorta selfish in s1, he knew he couldn't be with her and yet he kept on hovering. He knew that he might not be able to be with her and that Tommy wanted to be with her; but once he figured out he might be able to end his mission he was at her door even though he had encouraged Tommy just hours prior. That's selfish. The way he treated FS this year I don't think was selfish. He loved her but didn't know how to be with her, that's not that uncommon problem. But he did try not impose his feelings on her in a way that invaded her space or kept her locked into being around him. He didn't hover around her. He encouraged or at least did not interfere with her relationship with RP. For all his confessions of love, he pretty much allowed FS to be free to make her own choice. That's selfless in a way. Edited June 11, 2015 by kismet 3 Link to comment
statsgirl June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 I didn't see Oliver as hovering around Laurel in s1, he seemed genuinely happy a number of times that Tommy was dating her, Even at the Christmas party, it seemed like Laurel was looking for an indication of jealousy and he just wasn't. It's true that at the end of the season he treated both his friends badly when he went to Laurel's apartment after just having told Tommy to fight for her but that was writing for plot. As AK said, they couldn't look at Oliver/Felicity until they had ended Oliver/Laurel. But when Laurel asked Oliver to confirm that he didn't want to be with her in that hospital hallway, and he tells her he can't say that because he does, that's very much like what he did with Felicity in s3. It was the truth, that at that moment Oliver did want to be with Laurel himself, but by telling her that, he made Laurel even more mixed up and caused a lot of heartache for his best friend, Tommy. By telling Felicity that he loved her but refused to be with her, he was creating the same dilemma for her. It wasn't until he firmly shut the door on her, as she perceived it, by first working with Malcolm and then going to Nanda Parbat to save him, shutting her out of any discussions about it, that she could move on to Ray Palmer. As long as she thought there was a chance for them to be together, she couldn't move on to someone else. This discussion reminds me of a short story by Mark Twain called "Was it Heaven? Or Hell?" that examines the morality of whether or not to lie to protect another person, and leaves the reader to decide. Link to comment
Ceylon5 June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 The way I see it is that him refusing to lie to her in 3x01 and say he didn't love her was fair enough. I didn't want him to lie to her about his feelings when the topic was on the table and unavoidable. However, every other time he told her he loved her (but couldn't be with her), was an act of supreme selfishness. She didn't bring up the topic, he just spontaneously kept reminding her, apropos of nothing, that he loved her. She'd very specifically asked him not to go there, and he kept going there. He did it in 3x05 with his "and you know how I feel about her", he did it in 3x07 when he knew she was listening on the comms, he did it as his last words to her in 3x09 when he was going off, probably to die. To me, this was actually a passive aggressive way of standing in the way of freeing her up to move on. There was no need for him to keep reiterating his feelings for her every time she turned around, but he did it anyway. 3 Link to comment
apinknightmare June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 (edited) Personally, I don't have any issue with Oliver talking about his feelings to Felicity, and there are a few reasons for that. He never talked about how he felt about her in order to emotionally manipulate her - his stance was always the same in that he loved/wanted to be with her, but didn't feel like he could. In 3x05, he just told her that he was glad she went through what she did because those things made her into a person that he loved. She bristled at that, and he had a visible reaction to it, so he tried to shut it down. In 3x07, he reiterated what he had already told her (vicariously, through his conversation with Carrie Cutter). That's when he knew she was possibly moving on, so if he was trying to keep her from doing that, telling her that he couldn't be with her again seems like a bad move. In 3x09, I can't blame him for telling her he loved her right before he was going off to fight a duel that could possibly end in his death. I'd do the same, no matter how messy my relationships with people were at the time. I'd feel differently if him saying those things was keeping Felicity from moving on, but they weren't. If Ray hadn't run out on her after their kiss in 3x07, there's no doubt in my mind that the two of them would've started a relationship then. Felicity didn't tell Ray she wanted to keep it professional because she was still holding out hope for Oliver, she told him that because he did the SAME THING that Oliver did, which was dangle that carrot and then run away. And when Oliver came back from being "dead" and they had their fight in the alleyway, while she did tell him that she dreamed of him coming back and doing things differently, hoping that almost dying would've changed his outlook on life, I think that's a dream she would've had regardless, because she knew from the get go that Oliver not being with her was never because he didn't WANT it - he obviously wanted it desperately. Even when they had their blowout about Malcolm, she didn't tell him to stop telling her about his feelings because she was having a hard time moving on (and if that was the case for her, then that would've been justified), but she ultimately told him that she didn't even want him to love her because she didn't think that love meant very much. After that, he didn't speak about his feelings for her to her apart from wanting her to be happy. And their night in NP was initiated by Felicity, knowing that he was giving himself up to become the new Ra's, so I can't fault him for anything there since her eyes were open to the situation and she did what she wanted to. If Oliver had been wishy-washy about the whole thing and used his feelings to keep her hanging on, I would feel differently. But his story was the same from the beginning in that he loved her, but he couldn't be with her. Edited June 11, 2015 by apinknightmare 12 Link to comment
Ceylon5 June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 Obviously Oliver wasn't intentionally trying to hurt Felicity. But he did, every time he told her he loved her. Even after seeing her reaction when he did it again in 3x05, he still went ahead and did it in 3x07, and we all got to see how much that hurt her. Then telling her again while he's going off to die - you can argue that a person is entitled to be selfish in such a situation, but it doesn't make the fact that he did it any less selfish (he told her for his own peace of mind, not for hers). Presumably one of the reasons he refused to date her was to spare her some of the pain of losing him when he died an early death, yet he still went ahead and gave her the pain without any of the reward. Whether or not she rejected what he was doing and tried to move on anyway, is beside the point. That just shows that Felicity has backbone and wasn't going to let herself be jerked around. We all know that Felicity still wanted to be with Oliver. We all know that every time he repeated his "love you but can't be with you" mantra it was like rubbing salt in an open wound for her. She called it a dangled maybe because as long as she knew he loved her and wanted her, she knew he could at any time change his mind about the "can't be with you" part (which he did). Saying in the same breath that he still definitely couldn't be with her was more of a mixed message than a believable This Shall Never Be. So for him to keep doing it was selfish and unintentionally unkind. Felicity's difficulty was that her attempts at "moving on" were unsuccessful because she was suffering from a head/heart contradiction - she might have wanted to love available Ray instead of unavailable Oliver, but she wasn't able to. This most likely would have been true even if Oliver hadn't dangled maybes, but I don't believe she was able to put her whole heart into trying to move on as long as she knew there was a chance with Oliver, so she never really stood a chance of succeeding. After her alleyway put down, Oliver did finally stop telling her he loved her every 5 minutes. But she shouldn't have had to give him that kind of smack-down to get him to stop toying with her emotions like that. I don't have a problem with them sleeping together because that was a mutual decision. Plus that was effectively the moment that Oliver stopped saying "I can't be with you" and changed his mind and was with her (and I don't just mean the sex). Once again, I think all this was just poor writing - Felicity didn't need to keep hearing how Oliver felt, but the writers wanted the audience to not be in any doubt, so to hell with Oliver's characterisation. If I held this season again any of the characters, I wouldn't be able to keep watching. 3 Link to comment
apinknightmare June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 He didn't tell her he loved her in 3x07, he said that he knew what it felt like to want someone but not be able to be with them, and that he had to be alone, which is the exact same thing he told her in 3x01 after he told her they couldn't be together. That's a pretty big "move on" IMO, especially since he knew she WAS moving on. He reiterated to her, after knowing she was going out with Palmer, that he was not an option for her. The thing I'm not really getting about your argument is this: "We all know that every time he repeated his "love you but can't be with you" mantra it was like rubbing salt in an open wound for her." He did that one time after their initial breakup. Once. In 3x07. He brought up his feelings about her outright on two other occasions: once in 3x05 with the whole "and you know how I feel about her" thing which he saw her bristle at, and again before he left to fight Ra's. Yes, Oliver telling Felicity he loved her then was selfish, but I don't blame him for it, and I personally don't think it was cruel. He did seem a little hesitant to tell her and did so only after she asked him. If she hadn't, I think he would've walked out without telling her at all (the fact that he brought it up in the first place was bad writing, but...eh). Those are three times throughout the course of a whole season - any other conversation about feelings was based on things that were already said, so it's not like Oliver kept bringing it up at all, so I'm not sure where that's coming from? And if Felicity couldn't move on because she was holding out hope for Oliver, then that's on her. Like I wrote in my previous post - Oliver never wavered in what he was telling her: I love you, but I can't be with you. So, I guess I'm not really seeing how he toyed with her emotions given the fact that he told her in that hallway in 3x01 that he couldn't tell her that he didn't love her but that he also couldn't be with her and stuck to that until the end of the season. 6 Link to comment
Ceylon5 June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 My argument is that she asked him not to tell her he loved her if he wasn't going to be with her. That first time when he was breaking up with her I can forgive, because of the circumstances. But he should have never said it to her again after that unless he was taking back the "I can't be with you" part. It wasn't subtext that she didn't want to be hearing that from him. She told him in so many words. But he didn't honour her request, and on three separate occasions over the next few weeks brought the subject up again. Why didn't he just shut up and get on with his life and let her get on with hers? 1 Link to comment
apinknightmare June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 (edited) I always got the impression that after the not-so-fake I love you that Felicity was confused about his intentions with her, and wasn't sure where she stood even after the date. She asked him to say he "never" loved her so she could finally get some closure on that since he wouldn't deny it on Lian Yu, and he couldn't do that (she never told him not to tell her he loved her if he couldn't be with her). On the flip, she flat-out told him that after they talked it was over, so why should it matter if he told her how he felt about her on two other occasions? It clearly wasn't keeping her from moving on, because she would've moved on with Ray sooner if he hadn't run away after they kissed. And like I wrote before, if she was holding out hope for him, then that's on her because he made it clear he was not an option. Edited June 11, 2015 by apinknightmare 1 Link to comment
wingster55 June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 and excluding her from deliberations in Nanda Parbat were the worst examples but it seems that every time there was a disagreement, It was like one conversation where he wanted to speak to Oliver alone. Must Felicity always be present anytime Diggle needs to talk to Oliver? Link to comment
MatthewtheRaven June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 Felicity never told Oliver to not tell her he loved her if he couldn't be with her. She asked him to tell her he didn't love her in The Calm to get closure, before she told him it was over and walked away. Oliver told her he loved her ONE time after this, and only after Felicity ASKED him what the second thing (he knew) was. She asked for honesty. Granted, he said the "you know how I feel about her" in 3.05 which implies love but he, as apinknightmare points out, saw her bristle and it clearly didn't keep her from moving on since two episodes later she kissed Ray. If he hadn't walked out on her it's likely their relationship would have begun after this. Oliver didn't keep Felicity from moving on. Please allow her a little more agency than that. 1 Link to comment
wonderwall June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 This is just my take but I'm with apinknightmare on this one. 1. Felicity told Oliver to tell her that he didn't love her but he didn't want to lie to her about his feelings. 2. I think was the only time Oliver dangled a round about I love you to Felicity. And felicity was not cool with that. Neither was I. 3. Oliver talking to Carrie about not being able to be with who he loves was just as much for carrie as it was for felicity. But this was just a reiteration of what he said in episode 1. This time it wasn't Oliver who was dangling an I love you. It was Oliver trying to push felicity away even further which is why she kissed ray. So really, I think Oliver was trying to break things off with felicity for good. 4. I thoroughly believe that Oliver wanted to be with her when he got back. Because coming back meant that he'd have killed Ra's and he'd be able to be with her. I think it was slowly building from the moment he went to her office in episode 7. I say this because he went after her in episode 12 before she shut him down. I don't think he would've gone after her if he didn't want to be with her. That I love you was meant to be a start. But things happened, Oliver made idiotic decisions which pushed felicity away. Imo the only time Oliver selfishly reminded her that he loved her was in episode 5. He shut everything down when felicity told him she didn't want to be a woman he loved. Oliver respected her wishes then. 2 Link to comment
Ceylon5 June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 What I got out of the "Don't dangle maybes" conversation was that Felicity wanted Oliver to either be with her or to let her go cleanly, so that she'd be able to move on without hoping that he might someday change his mind. He did neither. Knowing that he loved her gave her hope, whether she wanted it to or not. She understandably didn't want to hope for something that might never happen. Of course, there's nothing Oliver could do about that part, since he did love her and, for whatever reason (let's pretend it was a good one, just for fun), couldn't be with her. He couldn't give her that clean break she was asking for. But he could have thereafter dropped the subject and not kept reminding her of it. Look, I get where Oliver's coming from. He hadn't actually let her go. He obviously didn't want her with anyone else; how could he if he were truly in love with her? He was trying to do the right thing but he failed at times. His real feelings popped out. I'm sure he kind of hoped that things would just go back to how they were before and that she'd be his best friend and wouldn't date anyone else, but he certainly wouldn't have intentionally sabotaged her efforts to move on and be happy. He was just sometimes careless of the fact that she was hurting as much as he was. 5 Link to comment
apinknightmare June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 (edited) I guess it just comes down to seeing that "don't dangle maybes" conversation differently. He dangled his first maybe back in 2x23 when he told her he loved her and didn't take it back when she brought it up, followed by a summer of (presumed) flirting and a date that ended badly and with him walking the relationship back. I figured he'd been confusing her for so long that she just wanted some kind of closure. When she asked him to tell her that he never loved her, he couldn't do that, because he did love her. And she had just told him that once they talked about it and he called it off, it was over. So, he told her the truth about how he felt so she would know that he wasn't playing games with her. IMO, him being firm in his feelings for her BUT his unwillingness to be with her combined with her flat-out telling him that it would be over once he backed off takes away any of Oliver's responsibility in Felicity's ability to move on. She told him she was going to do it (and she did), he told her he couldn't be with her - any hope she held onto in direct opposition of what he was telling her was on her. Edited June 11, 2015 by apinknightmare 4 Link to comment
EmeraldArcher June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 I don't have a problem with them sleeping together because that was a mutual decision. Plus that was effectively the moment that Oliver stopped saying "I can't be with you" and changed his mind and was with her (and I don't just mean the sex).I LOVED the way he committed to them being together after that, from the "There's us" in the morning after toast to the public "I love you all the more for it" in the botched escape. Of course, the clusterfluck that was Al Sahim happened after that, but as soon as Oliver was alone with her in 3x23, he shares with her his dream of them really being together, "just the two of us." Felicity also commits and claims him as "her Oliver" in front of his ex and his other partner, and she admits her love for him to his sister when even Thea acknowledges that they're together.I guess all of these moments are obvious, but I love how once they both commit, the certainty of a couple who've been together a long time defines their relationship instead of the tentative first steps that come early in a relationship. I know the Tumblr marriage theories were wrong, but one thing they got right was that when Felicity stated that they've essentially already experienced every date in 3x01, their relationship would transcend merely two people who are "dating." We saw the tentative first steps of dating when Oliver was with McKenna, and we saw the easy companionship he had with Sara, but he and Sara really didn't talk about their relationship or their love until it was over. Oliver and Felicity's declarations are different, which is why the writers will have to be incredibly sensitive and creative if they ever break them up. 4 Link to comment
Ceylon5 June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 I guess it just comes down to seeing that "don't dangle maybes" conversation differently. Yes, isn't it fascinating how a different interpretation of one line can change your whole way of viewing everything that follows from it? I still feel that this conversation was her asking him to cut off all avenues of hope for her so that she could more easily let him go, but I better understand why his later actions don't bother you now that I understand that you view this conversation as you do. Regarding the "moving on". There are two types of moving on, and people only have control of one of them. Hence the whole concept of rebound relationships. Felicity was moving on in the sense that she had agency and had decided to not sit in the basement and mope. She made an effort to be happy and partly succeeded. The type of moving on I'm referring to, though, is that of the heart. She had no more control over that than Oliver did. She couldn't MAKE herself not love Oliver. So she moved on where she was able to (physically) and didn't move on where she wasn't able to (emotionally). This isn't "on her" or "on Oliver". It's nobody's fault. But to say she "moved on" is to point only to half the story. And not really the important half, IMO. 4 Link to comment
Carrie Ann June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 (edited) He was just sometimes careless of the fact that she was hurting as much as he was. I remember being furious with Oliver after 301 for being "careless" with Felicity's feelings, but only because I don't think he would have asked her out at all until he was 100% sure he could handle being in a relationship with her alongside everything else. And given how easily he reversed his position, I don't think he was even close to that figure. I frankly think it was out of character for him to do that and it started the whole season off on the wrong note for me. Oliver dated women in Seasons 1 and 2. Those relationships were about exploring something for himself, and I applaud that. Oliver needs people and he deserves to be happy. But by 301, this dude has spent almost a year knowing he has feelings or is in love with Felicity (based on SA's identification of 206 as the beginning of Oliver's awareness), and he has held back. Why? He tells Diggle "it's not the right time." He felt that way because he didn't believe he could be in a relationship with her and be the Arrow, but the actual reason, in my view, was about protecting Felicity (emotionally, not physically, to be super clear). He wouldn't have taken that chance with Felicity without knowing he was on solid ground about it first. But then he did. So I had to swallow that OOC and plot-contrived moment, and moving forward, I really wasn't mad at him about this stuff for the rest of the season. I think he tried to do the best he could, while still figuring his shit out. He screwed up--that "you know how I feel about her" thing was unnecessary and he knew it immediately--but his biggest errors in the season came down to not trusting the right people, and that's not limited to Felicity. By the same token, I had moments this season where I felt Felicity was careless with Oliver's feelings and I was unhappy about those too. Her joy at seeing QC rebranded to PT will forever stick in my craw. And I found 317 especially aggravating as she accused Oliver of wanting her relationship with Ray to fail (when he'd only shown the opposite), and then she turned around and kissed his cheek at the end of the episode. At that point, she was the one stringing him along, and I did not love it. Characters took a backseat to plot this season, and any given character might act OOC at any moment in order to serve another's arc, and many of the moments I hated can be directly pinned to that. In 307 and 317, Ray was living the life Oliver wanted, and someone had to come right out and say it because apparently we're all very dumb, and it had to be as hurtful to Oliver as possible. Oh...hey, Felicity! That's your job this season! Edited June 11, 2015 by Carrie Ann 4 Link to comment
wonderwall June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 This season was just messy all around. Which is why I'd like Oliver and felicity to sort of deal with the issues they experienced in season 3 in season 4. I don't want the show to forget what happened in S3 because it was all sorts of fucked up. Arrow has a good track record not forgetting about certain issues and dealing with them. As much as I want Oliver and Felicity to be happy, I want them to deal with their issues as well. I'm also hoping for Oliver to be super supportive of Felicity when her dad comes back into the picture and I'd like Felicity to be supportive of Oliver when he's out in the field. Link to comment
MsSchadenfreude June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 It was like one conversation where he wanted to speak to Oliver alone. Must Felicity always be present anytime Diggle needs to talk to Oliver? Absolutely not. Oliver and Diggle have had many conversations in the past and should continue to have many in the future that do not include Felicity. I don't think Felicity needs to be part of their every conversation even if it is related to Team Arrow. The reverse is also true. Oliver and Felicity should have conversations that do not include Diggle. For example, Oliver and Felicity at Jitters on the Flash without Diggle. And just throwing this out as well, Diggle and Felicity should have conversations that don't include Oliver. 9 Link to comment
AustenChick June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 I said this awhile back but reading through all this -- I'd like to say it again -- I think Oliver and Felicity should be the Coach Eric and Tami Taylor of the comic book world for s4. They're the steady couple you can count on with real relationship issues and problems. If you think about it -- they're already kind of there -- besides Diggle, Felicity and Oliver have helped nurture and encourage all the new masks. I'm not saying they'll be the mom and pop of the comic book TV universe -- cause that would be weird -- but the steady rock they people can count on (like Diggle has been for Oliver and Felicity). The two of them have both helped Barry, Laurel, Roy, and Ray all find their way in the hero world. 12 Link to comment
kismet June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 Gotta agree AustenChick I think O/F should be the stable nurturing couple of the CW comic universe for s4. I do not think the writers get the best mileage out of the couple by keeping them apart. They created so much potential in s1&2 because of how well they worked together. I like the concept of them working as a team within a team within a team. Clearly, people are happy for the ending (some are not)- but I don't think there are many olicity lovers & haters alike or even critics that felt the romantic drama angst of O/F was one of the better or stronger aspects of s3. It seems like most people (fans, stars, critics, etc) connected to the show are just happy that portion of the season is done with. Its just too contrived to believe that now that they have made it through the muck of s3 that another internal angst drama will tear them apart. I'm even hesitant to think that an external force will shatter their bond in s4. I think there are so many other ways to produce drama, action & excitement for the show than to base it on will they/won't they or betting on the time of their break-up. I get its a CW show & romantic drama is part of the formula. But with a single Thea & Laurel there are so many new romantic angles they can write to fulfill that section of the network formula. 4 Link to comment
statsgirl June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 (edited) Coach Eric and Tami Taylor was a really great relationship because even though they had their problems, they were solid. I wish more TV shows would do that instead of breaking couples up for the drama. there are enough problems in Starling City without having Felicity or Oliver cheat on each other. The thing I'm not really getting about your argument is this: "We all know that every time he repeated his "love you but can't be with you" mantra it was like rubbing salt in an open wound for her." He did that one time after their initial breakup. Once. In 3x07. He also did it in 3x05 with "and you know how I feel about her". If he was serious about letting her move on, he never should have reminded her that he had told her he loved her. I'd say even in 3x09 it was unnecessary. He didn't have to say "there are two things" that he knows, he could just have said that he will go anything he can to save his sister. Telling Felicity that there are two things and only saying one of them is practically ensuring that she will ask what the other is,. And since she's asked him to stop dangling maybes (coming back from the fight and being able to be with her was a HUGE maybe), it's pretty much the definition of passive-aggressive. It was like one conversation where he wanted to speak to Oliver alone. Must Felicity always be present anytime Diggle needs to talk to Oliver? No. But these were two very big conversations about what Oliver is going to do with his life, the kind you have with the person that you love. "I'm going to risk my life because I think Thea was wrong when she told the League where Malcolm is and maybe I'll really be killed this time." It was just part of a whole series of episodes where Oliver shut Felicity out of any meaningful conversations from the time he came back (he had meaningful/life conversations with Diggle as early as 313) until 316 when Diggle told Felicity about Ra's offer and Felicity forced the situation. It's been said that Oliver didn't know that Felicity loved him. I'd argue that for all his professions, Felicity wouldn't have been sure that he loved her because despite what he said, he behaved like a man who didn't love her. Or maybe, as Felicity pointed out when she said she didn't want to be a woman he loved because of how badly he treated the woman he claimed to love. Oliver didn't keep Felicity from moving on. Please allow her a little more agency than that. When the guy you love keeps telling you that he loves you but refuses to be with you, it's almost impossible to move on with your life. At least not for few years anyway till you've given up all hope of him changing his mind. If Oliver really wanted her to move on, he should have stopped telling her he cared for her romantically after he broke up with her in 301. He shouldn't have said "and you know how I feel about her", reminding her that he had told her he loved her; when in 307 she told him she had a business date with Ray he should have said "I'm glad you've found someone" instead of saying "Do what you want" (which is a phrase my father used a lot and really meant "Do what I want"); he shouldn't have told her that there were two things in life that he knew and one of them was that he loved her; he should have talked to her about his decision to team up with Malcolm after he got back because he's talked those sorts of things out with her in the first two seasons. But Oliver didn't really want Felicity to move on. He wanted her to stay with him, just as it had been before when Felicity had no one to tell about her day and told Oliver. He couldn't be with her but he still wanted her to be there for him and he reacted badly every time she took a step to move out, from taking the job with Palmer to the business dinner, to Felicity dating Ray. It was only when Felicity finally gave up hoping that she could have a relationship with Oliver, when he showed her in 315 that he wasn't going to listen to her and that she didn't have a place in his life other than tech support, that she went to Ray. As long as Oliver was giving her mixed messages that let her hold on to hope, she couldn't move on. Edited June 11, 2015 by statsgirl 4 Link to comment
apinknightmare June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 (edited) I guess I don't see why she'd be holding onto hope at all when he was consistently telling her he could not be with her. Yes, he loved her, and he told her that several times. But he also told her several times that it wasn't going to happen. Not someday, not maybe. There was no, "please wait for me until this crusade is over and then we can be together." He said that he couldn't be the Arrow and be with her and he had to be alone and he stuck by that. No mixed messages whatsoever there. That, to me, doesn't really seem like he was trying to keep her from moving on at all-quite the opposite, really. Edited June 11, 2015 by apinknightmare 7 Link to comment
MatthewtheRaven June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 When the guy you love keeps telling you that he loves you but refuses to be with you, it's almost impossible to move on with your life. At least not for few years anyway till you've given up all hope of him changing his mind. If Oliver really wanted her to move on, he should have stopped telling her he cared for her romantically after he broke up with her in 301. He shouldn't have said "and you know how I feel about her", reminding her that he had told her he loved her; when in 307 she told him she had a business date with Ray he should have said "I'm glad you've found someone" instead of saying "Do what you want" (which is a phrase my father used a lot and really meant "Do what I want"); he shouldn't have told her that there were two things in life that he knew and one of them was that he loved her; he should have talked to her about his decision to team up with Malcolm after he got back because he's talked those sorts of things out with her in the first two seasons. But Oliver didn't really want Felicity to move on. He wanted her to stay with him, just as it had been before when Felicity had no one to tell about her day and told Oliver. He couldn't be with her but he still wanted her to be there for him and he reacted badly every time she took a step to move out, from taking the job with Palmer to the business dinner, to Felicity dating Ray. It was only when Felicity finally gave up hoping that she could have a relationship with Oliver, when he showed her in 315 that he wasn't going to listen to her and that she didn't have a place in his life other than tech support, that she went to Ray. As long as Oliver was giving her mixed messages that let her hold on to hope, she couldn't move on. The notion that Oliver somehow held Felicity back is, IMO, preposterous. Oliver never said or did anything indicating he didn't want Felicity to move on. Actually, after The Calm he did the opposite. He repeatedly told her he couldn't be with her, stood by that, even helped her and Ray during the latter's episode. Neither did he ever say he wanted her to be there for him; interestingly, Felicity was the one telling Oliver "As long as you're in my life, I am [happy]." For her part, Felicity never said or did anything to indicate she had difficulty moving on because of Oliver telling her he loved her. 5 Link to comment
lemotomato June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 He also did it in 3x05 with "and you know how I feel about her". If he was serious about letting her move on, he never should have reminded her that he had told her he loved her. I'd say even in 3x09 it was unnecessary. He didn't have to say "there are two things" that he knows, he could just have said that he will go anything he can to save his sister. Telling Felicity that there are two things and only saying one of them is practically ensuring that she will ask what the other is,. And since she's asked him to stop dangling maybes (coming back from the fight and being able to be with her was a HUGE maybe), it's pretty much the definition of passive-aggressive. If Oliver really wanted her to move on, he should have stopped telling her he cared for her romantically after he broke up with her in 301. He shouldn't have said "and you know how I feel about her", reminding her that he had told her he loved her; when in 307 she told him she had a business date with Ray he should have said "I'm glad you've found someone" instead of saying "Do what you want" (which is a phrase my father used a lot and really meant "Do what I want"); he shouldn't have told her that there were two things in life that he knew and one of them was that he loved her; he should have talked to her about his decision to team up with Malcolm after he got back because he's talked those sorts of things out with her in the first two seasons. But Oliver didn't really want Felicity to move on. He wanted her to stay with him, just as it had been before when Felicity had no one to tell about her day and told Oliver. He couldn't be with her but he still wanted her to be there for him and he reacted badly every time she took a step to move out, from taking the job with Palmer to the business dinner, to Felicity dating Ray. It was only when Felicity finally gave up hoping that she could have a relationship with Oliver, when he showed her in 315 that he wasn't going to listen to her and that she didn't have a place in his life other than tech support, that she went to Ray. As long as Oliver was giving her mixed messages that let her hold on to hope, she couldn't move on. I feel that's really unfair to say that Oliver was saying/doing all of these things on purpose to keep Felicity from moving on. In 3x05, when he says "And you know how I feel about her", the context of the conversation was him reassuring her past mistakes still made her into the great person she was today. I don't think he meant to remind her of his romantic feelings, which was why he immediately grimaces and looks away when he sees Felicity's reaction. In 3x07, his "I have to be alone" speech was part of the mission, a plan that he probably thought of after speaking to Carrie Cutter's therapist, who advised him to tell Carrie the truth to talk her down. Oliver didn't expect Felicity to be on comms for the mission, since she was supposed to be at dinner with Ray. Telling her he loved her in 3x09 before he left on a duel to the death was selfish, yes, but then again, he was going off to a duel to the death. I'm going to give him a pass on that one. Basically, when I think of how Oliver treated Felicity in 3A, I think of the quote "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity". And we all know how painfully stupid he is about how he deals with his feelings. I really don't think he was trying to keep Felicity from moving on or to hurt her. 4 Link to comment
Ceylon5 June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 I think all the dissonance happening here is a direct result of the writers making Oliver break up with Felicity in the first place. It's not like they made it so that Oliver actually couldn't be with Felicity. They made it his choice not to be with her. That was a stupid writing decision, because they didn't even really give any sort of clear and reasonable reason for it. The viewers were left scratching their heads and trying to extract sense from nonsense (he's emotionally damaged, etc.). TPTB just wanted him to have something for him to be angsty about so they could showcase his supposed "identity issue". It makes no sense to me at all that Oliver would break up with Felicity while being in love with her and knowing she wanted to be with him. I don't believe he would do that to her. So for me, the whole arc didn't work on every level: 1) It made no sense. He was already in love with her, so he was already 'distracted' by her. She was already a part of all facets of his life and thus in danger, so not sleeping with her wasn't going to make her safe. He was working on all his other important relationships (Diggle, Roy, Thea), so it wasn't emotional constipation. There are just no reasons that work for me. 2) It regressed Oliver, because he was making such strides on so many fronts and this season they had him suddenly (sporadically, when it suited the plot) push away the most important people in his life and keep huge secrets from them and so on. 3) Oliver was made to look stupid as a result. 4) It effectively made Felicity a woman scorned, which was a poor way for her to officially embark on her role as the main love interest. Them constantly telling us he loved her did not make her any less rejected. 5) He hurt Felicity by rejecting her (even though he tried to do so super nicely). In what world do any of us really believe that Oliver would do that to her? Especially now that we know he truly loves her. And so on and so forth. I just don't buy any of it. I'm inclined to pretend most of it never happened. I'll just stick with the pre-explosion date and the sex and then go from the "I'm happy" onward. 12 Link to comment
dtissagirl June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 (edited) 1) It made no sense. He was already in love with her, so he was already 'distracted' by her. She was already a part of all facets of his life and thus in danger, so not sleeping with her wasn't going to make her safe. He was working on all his other important relationships (Diggle, Roy, Thea), so it wasn't emotional constipation. There are just no reasons that work for me. This one was enough for me to check out from the entire romance-stopping storyline. If Oliver had really shut himself off from everything and everyone and had the full on I AM THE DARKNESS I AM THE KNIGHT Batman-lite hissy fit, then I'd be annoyed, but I'd buy that keeping Felicity at arms length was part of the whole process. As it was, he became a cuddly puppy with Thea and Roy and Diggle, and the whole manpain about Felicity then felt super duper hollow for me. I do, however, think there might have been an external factor going on here. They hammered and anviled the thing about Felicity being tied to Oliver's humanity until they couldn't make it clearer -- most likely as an overcompensation for Laurel/Oliver being a total flop. But they couldn't shut Oliver down emotionally completely, because that was S1's arc already. So Felicity got the GRR ARROW treatment, while his identity issue was tied to Oliver only avoiding the parts of the humanity of being Oliver Queen = living in the light and having fun and Felicity. Everything else that meant he had a life -- family, friends, a place to live, dinner at the Diggles, mentoring Roy -- it was all A-okay. Everything except dating Felicity. And then he had to keep at that for the span of 20 episodes because television. As usual, they missed a whole bunch of marks. Edited June 11, 2015 by dancingnancy 6 Link to comment
AyChihuahua June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 The fact that he was working, for at least a good chunk of the season, on getting closer to everyone BUT Felicity really does make it feel like he was crapping specifically on her. I go so back and forth with those two, because I spent two years loving them both separately and quasi-together, but they both annoyed the everlovin' crap out of me for a lot of S3. At least Felicity for all her IMO embarrassing neediness and romantic desperation didn't become unbearably stupid, like Oliver did. I think I am with Ceylon...S3 didn't actually happen. I mean, Oliver and Felicity are doin' it now, Roy left for reasons and Thea and Laurel are now masked vigilantes also for reasons. And somehow Malcolm became Ra's. I will just neither know nor care how or why those events occurred, rather I will simply remember that they did occur for purposes of going into S4. 3 Link to comment
NumberCruncher June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 (edited) This whole conversation is only reminding me why I hate love triangle storylines with the fire of 10,000 burning suns--inevitably fans are forced to take sides for or against one of the characters involved and the lasting effect manifests itself in the form of endless debates like this. Not that I'm blaming/criticizing anyone for having an opinion--discuss away--it makes me hate MG & Co. for subjecting us to such tired, lazy-ass writing to begin with. Edited June 11, 2015 by NumberCruncher 11 Link to comment
BkWurm1 June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 He approached her after he returned and she stopped him. I think that yes, before Oliver went off to fight Ra's the first time he was thinking that maybe they could be together, likely because of 3.7 he came so close to losing her, but by the time he came back he wasn't thinking of being with her. He chose the fight over her. Tatsu said he'd have to sacrifice what meant most to him and that was both his principles and Felicity and I think he knew it before he came home and that it's disingenuous to say he wanted to be with her after he defeated Ra's since even training with Malcolm wasn't a reasonable answer to his problem. Intentional or not, he "I love you" before he left made Felicity start to dream again, it was a huge dangled maybe, one that actually sounded closer to a promise IMO but he made his choice and took it back. Am I mad at him? Only on a philosophical level, the dude was all kinds of messed up. That said, even if he came after her, he had no intentions of being with her. He was focused on his new mission. Ra's was in his head, not Felicity. I always got the impression that after the not-so-fake I love you that Felicity was confused about his intentions with her, and wasn't sure where she stood even after the date. She asked him to say he "never" loved her so she could finally get some closure on that since he wouldn't deny it on Lian Yu, and he couldn't do that (she never told him not to tell her he loved her if he couldn't be with her). On the flip, she flat-out told him that after they talked it was over, so why should it matter if he told her how he felt about her on two other occasions? It clearly wasn't keeping her from moving on, because she would've moved on with Ray sooner if he hadn't run away after they kissed. And like I wrote before, if she was holding out hope for him, then that's on her because he made it clear he was not an option. I guess I don't see why she'd be holding onto hope at all when he was consistently telling her he could not be with her. Yes, he loved her, and he told her that several times. But he also told her several times that it wasn't going to happen. Not someday, not maybe. There was no, "please wait for me until this crusade is over and then we can be together." He said that he couldn't be the Arrow and be with her and he had to be alone and he stuck by that. No mixed messages whatsoever there. That, to me, doesn't really seem like he was trying to keep her from moving on at all-quite the opposite, really. The thing is he wouldn't say he could never be with her. In the Calm he said I can't be with you now, maybe not ever. Felicity asks him then to say never. To say he never loved her (a definite reference to the fake out from before) to stop dangling maybes. I much prefer Oliver saying her loved her than pretending he didn't for her own good (hate that) but he absolutely is responsible for dangling maybes but not telling her it's never going to happen. She basically says she won't wait around but she does just that because she does cling to the hope that one day Oliver will change his mind because Oliver has GIVEN her the hope that one day he might suddenly be able to be with her. He won't say they can never happen. Again, everyone is hurting everyone but do I really blame them or wish they acted differently? To what happens I thing they both acted as expected. The only blame I can truly place is on the conceit that was keeping them apart in the first place. Everything that came after is just too understandable to hold against either of them in the long term IMO. 2 Link to comment
apinknightmare June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 (edited) The thing is he wouldn't say he could never be with her. In the Calm he said I can't be with you now, maybe not ever. Felicity asks him then to say never. To say he never loved her (a definite reference to the fake out from before) to stop dangling maybes. I much prefer Oliver saying her loved her than pretending he didn't for her own good (hate that) but he absolutely is responsible for dangling maybes but not telling her it's never going to happen. She basically says she won't wait around but she does just that because she does cling to the hope that one day Oliver will change his mind because Oliver has GIVEN her the hope that one day he might suddenly be able to be with her. He won't say they can never happen. Eh, I disagree. He didn't respond to that request of hers, true, because maybe still held out hope before their conversation ended. But he never gave any indication once he told her he didn't think he could be with her that he was ever going to change his mind about it. To me, dangling maybes is not saying anything when she says, "I thought you might have meant it," and he doesn't tell her that he was sorry, but he didn't. It's saying "maybe I was wrong," when he told her he couldn't be with someone he could really care about. He is responsible for dangling those maybes. But when they were in the hallway, he said he didn't think he could be himself AND be the Arrow "not now, maybe not ever" - that was maybe a little bit about their relationship, but mostly about him and his frame of mind. He never gave her any "maybes" about someday they could be together, or maybe it would work out at some point. He told her he couldn't be with her in that hallway, and he said it again in 3x07, and neither time did he lead her to believe that it would ever be any different (he probably hoped that it would be, but he never said anything to her that should've or would've given her any hope to hold onto). Edited June 11, 2015 by apinknightmare 1 Link to comment
statsgirl June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 How 3x07 could have been: Oliver: I need 100% of your focus on it. Felicity: And I will work round the clock on it except for tonight. Ray Palmer invited me to dinner.Oliver: Oh.Felicity: Not dinner-dinner like a date. It's a work dinner but dinner is only a meal you can eat at night. I need the night off. [puppy dog eyes at Oliver hoping he will object] Is that okay? Oliver: Felicity, it's okay. I want you to be happy. Don't worry about it. later Oliver: We need Felicity here.Diggle: Oliver, she's still at dinner.Oliver: Right. Then we'll work around her till she gets back.. How it really went: Oliver: I need 100% of your focus on it. Felicity: And I will work round the clock on it except for tonight. Ray Palmer invited me to dinner. Oliver: Oh. Felicity: Not dinner-dinner like a date. It's a work dinner but dinner is only a meal you can eat at night. I need the night off. Is that okay? Oliver: Do what you want. later Oliver: We need Felicity here. Diggle: Oliver, she's still at dinner. Oliver: I don't care where she is, we need her here. They call her during dinner, she has to leave the business dinner to do her tech thingy for them and it's uncomfortable for everyone at the table. I don't think Oliver needs to be perfect, that would be more unrealistic than the Lazarus Pit, but he was giving her some serious double messages this season, until 313 when he dropped her completely. But when they were in the hallway, he said he didn't think he could be himself AND be the Arrow "not now, maybe not ever" The words "not now, maybe not ever" reads to me like a dangling maybe because the implication is 'not now but maybe some time when I get everything worked out'. Link to comment
apinknightmare June 11, 2015 Share June 11, 2015 The words "not now, maybe not ever" reads to me like a dangling maybe because the implication is 'not now but maybe some time when I get everything worked out'. But he didn't say that specifically about their relationship, he was talking about being both parts of himself. In any event, after he said that, she told him to stop dangling those maybes, and he did. After their talk in the hospital, he never gave her any reason to hope that he would change his mind, and in 3x07 when he thought she was moving on with Ray, he doubled down on it and told her he couldn't be with her again. I just don't see where he gave her any thread of hope to hang onto that would've made it difficult for her to move on. At all. 2 Link to comment
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