S12.E15: Alpha Male

[ReidFan]

23 minutes ago, JMO said:

 

I sincerely hope Rossi and Lewis are there with files for Reid's case, and that they're not consulting with him on another.  

okay, I laughed. sorry.... I just pictured a big code they couldn't make sense of so they schlep all the papers up to the prison and ask Reid to decode it?

nope. :)

it's gotta be the Scratch case. And/or Reid's own case. Or both combined. :)

[Hotchgirl18]

1 hour ago, normasm said:

Unless it's the scratch case...

And yes, JMO, I do think he's suspicious of Calvin (I hope he is), because I think Calvin is orchestrating the attacks. I think he definitely directed the second one, as well as coming to his "rescue" so that Reid is beholden to him. And next time, he's goading him, saying 'which are you, predator or prey?"

So Calvin could be gaslighting him. Great. 

[Danielg342]

Heat of the moment, attack is imminent? Sure, no time for profiling.

However, when he just steps in and no one has "noticed" him yet? Lots of time for a quick profile, at least. If Reid can rattle off a research paper on Chester Hardwick in a split second, he can likely do it after a quick scan of the room.

[Willowy]

Reid is so trusting... even in there. I'm gonna hate it if he loses that, permanently.

[SSAHotchner]

On 3/2/2017 at 6:39 PM, Danielg342 said:

I still think the "real Reid" would have properly understood prison dynamics and properly vetted each and every inmate in his head to see who could be an ally to him and who wouldn't be. He's likely read plenty- if not all- of their files, and he's known to be a brilliant on-the-spot profiler ("Damaged"), so he definitely could figure all this out quickly. "Damaged" even showed he could do it under intense pressure and in extreme danger- where were those skills tonight?

Furthermore, Reid's got a BAs in Psychology and has likely read every study there is- there's absolutely no way he's never come across literature about prison dynamics and what he'd have to do to survive. It should already be ingrained in his head that he has to have allies if he's to survive prison and that laying low is a bad option, especially when he has to share a living space with other prisoners.

I get they wanted to do the whole "fish out of water" thing, but, in doing so, they went against (surprise, surprise) everything we should know about the character. A regular Joe or even your garden variety comic book nerd would likely not know to ally themselves in jail, but there's no reason why Reid- who's read and dealt with more than his fair share of evil people- wouldn't just know to do it, but thrive in doing so.

If they really wanted to do a storyline where Reid has difficulties in prison, they could have shown him profiling only for him to fail miserably, at least with some of the "tougher" prisoners. It's one thing to know how a criminal's mind works in the abstract but it's quite another to deal with it when it's ready to act on you.

You have great ideas, but these writers are completely out of their depth with that kind of thinking. Not a one of them, except Clemente, grasps the original concept of the show and time and time again they take the easy way out. Then they get pissy when viewers call them on it. A scenario like the one you envisioned would make a wonderful Criminal Minds episode. 

[Danielg342]

27 minutes ago, SSAHotchner said:

You have great ideas, but these writers are completely out of their depth with that kind of thinking. Not a one of them, except Clemente, grasps the original concept of the show and time and time again they take the easy way out. Then they get pissy when viewers call them on it. A scenario like the one you envisioned would make a wonderful Criminal Minds episode. 

Thanks. It's why I write- I want to hit the highs I know CM can hit but just won't.

This Scratch storyline seems like a great example.

[secnarf]

I think the only difficulty with that is how to show it - they'd have to do some sort of whispered voice-over, or something to show what Reid is thinking. He can't exactly talk over a profile with someone.

[ForeverAlone]

I hope the show actually addresses why Reid was deliberately kept out of protective custody, when he was clearly supposed to be in it. I suppose the show will go for the tired trope of the guard somehow being in Mr. Scratch's pocket, because otherwise there is no other reason why a guard would do this. I do like Harold Perrineau's character and he seems like he will have a good connection with Reid, but there needs to be some explanation for why this story is happening in the first place. Why isn't Reid talking to his lawyer about this, because she really should get him moved to protective custody.  

I am an avid SVU watcher, so I always find it amusing and interesting when the shows overlap stories. It has happened more than once when both shows explored similar themes either the same week or very close to each other. Last SVU episode had the detectives also investigating the "man o sphere", though that was just a red herring. And they did their own Elliot Rodgers case a couple years ago that was more ripped from the headlines. 

The case itself was better than I feared it would be, and the team did use a reasonable amount of profiling to narrow down the suspect pool and where his final target would be. Though why any of the team would be shocked about anything anyone in the man o sphere would write, when they chase some seriously depraved criminals, was sort of funny, but those lines had to have the PSA about the disgusting nature of some of these views (also a problem on SVU these days). The one thing that threw me off was when the team was discussing the case together and it just felt sort of disjointed rather than a natural conversation, because it was more important the team each say a few lines than have a natural sounding conversation. It's the same problem that plagues the profile giving these days.  

Edited March 4, 2017 by ForeverAlone

[Hotchgirl18]

11 hours ago, ForeverAlone said:

I hope the show actually addresses why Reid was deliberately kept out of protective custody, when he was clearly supposed to be in it. I suppose the show will go for the tired trope of the guard somehow being in Mr. Scratch's pocket, because otherwise there is no other reason why a guard would do this. I do like Harold Perrineau's character and he seems like he will have a good connection with Reid, but there needs to be some explanation for why this story is happening in the first place. Why isn't Reid talking to his lawyer about this, because she really should get him moved to protective custody.  

I am an avid SVU watcher, so I always find it amusing and interesting when the shows overlap stories. It has happened more than once when both shows explored similar themes either the same week or very close to each other. Last SVU episode had the detectives also investigating the "man o sphere", though that was just a red herring. And they did their own Elliot Rodgers case a couple years ago that was more ripped from the headlines. 

The case itself was better than I feared it would be, and the team did use a reasonable amount of profiling to narrow down the suspect pool and where his final target would be. Though why any of the team would be shocked about anything anyone in the man o sphere would write, when they chase some seriously depraved criminals, was sort of funny, but those lines had to have the PSA about the disgusting nature of some of these views (also a problem on SVU these days). The one thing that threw me off was when the team was discussing the case together and it just felt sort of disjointed rather than a natural conversation, because it was more important the team each say a few lines than have a natural sounding conversation. It's the same problem that plagues the profile giving these days.  

Exactly. It doesn't feel coherent anymore. Just a bunch of people standing around talking. 

[Danielg342]

14 hours ago, secnarf said:

I think the only difficulty with that is how to show it - they'd have to do some sort of whispered voice-over, or something to show what Reid is thinking. He can't exactly talk over a profile with someone.

Maybe not, but perhaps when he confronts someone he'll hit at his heartstrings and say something like "my mother never recognized my needs either", or at their ego by saying "the guys in the yard...they're not going to respect you by hitting an 'easy target' like me. Don't you want a challenge?"

Or he chats someone up after sensing that they too are hard-done-by in life.

There's just so many possibilities...and the writers whiffed on all of them.

What could make this storyline a semi-bearable one would be having Reid communicate with other prisoners and perhaps using his contacts with the FBI to investigate their cases and get some of them freed. I'm sure there would be a few that were wrongfully convicted and I think Reid helping some of them out not only gives the character something to do but also earns him brownie points in the jail. Plus it'd be a different storyline than the usual "he tries to survive in rough, tough jail".

14 hours ago, ForeverAlone said:

had to have the PSA about the disgusting nature of some of these views (also a problem on SVU these days)

Agreed. I get it might earn them "Hollywood street cred" and earn them "positive feedback from the Internet", but it just feels heavy-handed and forced most of the time, and ultimately counterproductive.

I'd rather have a crime program create conversations and challenge the powers that be to do better, instead of serving as mouthpieces for whatever politics are de rigueur these days.

[zannej]

On 3/2/2017 at 4:46 AM, mochamajesty said:

I thought Feds were trained in hand to hand combat. 

Reid shouldn't be as defenseless  as your average inmate.

I don't trust anyone in that prison.

Feds are trained to deal with combat in situations where they are out in the field. Reid doesn't have his service weapon and there is no real chance of backup. He's in a place where he is outnumbered. Also, he has to be aware that if he gets in to a fight, even if he didn't start it, he could get in to trouble and it might reflect badly on him. Since that one guard already has it in for him, they could accuse Reid of having started the fight and that sort of stuff could be brought up in court. Although, since he was supposed to be in protective custody it might raise some questions, but the writers don't think about things like that. Reid didn't really have much opportunity to fight back when they tied his hands behind his back and they had knives while he had no weapons. And all the psychology degrees in the world don't make people better at dealing with other people-- in fact, I've found that sometimes the "experts" in psychology don't even know how to talk to their own children or how to treat other people and end up coming off as arrogant pompous assholes (which stems from them thinking they know everything because they studied human psychology).

Also, the show made a point of downplaying and nerfing Reid's physical abilities starting in season 6 when they claimed he couldn't do anything that wasn't book-learned (which I still refuse to accept as legit). Even if Reid was a great fighter, he was still surrounded and trapped. Most people who learn martial arts are taught to do what they can to disable the attackers long enough to run to safety. Reid didn't really have a run to safety option.

After re-watching, I've decided that I don't think Wilkins is in on anything with Shaw. He looked genuinely pissed off that Reid got transferred to a safer area and actually manhandled him. So, my guess is that he truly believes Reid is guilty and is pissed off about it. But I really hope they have Reid mention the whole being put in genpop and the threats to his lawyer.

[normasm]

^^^^^^^ THIS so much, zannej

Edited March 5, 2017 by normasm
I misspelled zannej

[senin]

Zannej, you've managed to put into words some of the thoughts that were going round in my head and I couldn't express properly. Thank you!!

[Danielg342]

13 hours ago, zannej said:

all the psychology degrees in the world don't make people better at dealing with other people

I'd believe you on that if I hadn't seen Reid connect with others- genuinely- before.

Still, my main problem with this is that Reid just didn't even try. I would agree that connecting in a prison environment wouldn't necessarily be as easy as it would be for Reid out in the field or while he was a free man, but I find it hard to believe that Reid wouldn't think to try to bond with anyone or that he wouldn't try a profiling trick to talk down someone being violent with him.

It doesn't mean it has to work. I just think the Reid I know wouldn't give up, and this Reid just gave in.

[senin]

I think that the fact that he didn't try is , or is supposed to be, a sign that he is absolutely in shock about his situation. First he didn't expect to go to prison, then he thought he was going into protective custody and he didn't,  so he feels paralyzed. It's difficult to believe because he has been in very difficult situations before, but it's the only reason I can think of to justify his "giving in". 

Edited March 5, 2017 by senin

[normasm]

Senin, to me he didn't "give in," he just dealt with the reality of the situation. As Zannej said, he's outnumbered, he has to play by the prison rules, and he's already on Wilkin's bad side. He's not cowering behind anyone, he's standing alone, in a situation where keeping his head DOWN is perhaps his only option to stay out of trouble.

[senin]

I only used that term because it is the one Daniel had used, that why I used the "" . I don't think he gave in, but I do think he is finding it difficult to cope in this situation (who wouldn't?) 

[normasm]

Maybe I shouldn't have pointed that just at you, senin. I'm just trying to get across to those who think Reid could have profiled his way out of being prey for hungry predators that just the threat of exposure as a fed from the deputy would be enough for him to absolutely shut up and keep his head down until he could get help from Emily and Co.

[Danielg342]

Right now, I'm outnumbered. :P

Perhaps depression is a reason why Reid does what he does. I still find it very unsatisfying. Reid didn't give up with Hankel. Reid didn't give up in "The Popular Kids". Reid didn't give up with Chester Hardwick.

Reid didn't give up on his mother.

...and I'm supposed to believe that the minute he walks into prison he just "gives up"? As I said before, Reid would know that the No. 1 rule of prison is not to keep to yourself...so why he makes that decision I don't know.

I don't really care that he's a fed. He doesn't have to tell his fellow inmates that and he can spin it into a positive for him, or he could at least try.

I'd also think if he's so depressed that he gives up, he'd likely not care if the prisoners beat him to death...he's already dead inside anyway.

Admittedly this episode fails from a lack of perspective, because we don't really explore Reid's thought process all too much. If I had understood why he made his decisions, I could perhaps get behind them a bit better.

[JMO]

Reid has always done best one on one.  You put him in the middle of any crowd, and he's off kilter. Add to that the shock of being unexpectedly transferred to federal prison, on top of the shock of the entire situation in the first place, and you have someone not operating on all of his usual cylinders.  Given time, he'll probably get there.  He might already have begun studying his fellow prisoners while he was in the yard, and even in the cot area, but that was aborted when they fell upon him..  

I don't think profiling was going to help him in the situation he was in with the attempted assault.  He might have wanted to try talking down the thug with the knife, but he certainly wasn't going to do it with his mouth full of dirty sock.  

Once he gets his footing, I think we'll see him pull out some of his bag of tricks.  I do think he will profile Shaw---I think he will have to.  For all we know, he may find a way to gain some points with his fellow inmates through magic! 

[Danielg342]

I've never seen any evidence that he can't handle a crowd. Except "52 Pickup", but that was different, and he still tried then.

I can only hope you're right @JMO, because I don't know how much inaction from Reid I can take.

[zannej]

On 3/5/2017 at 2:23 PM, Danielg342 said:

I'd believe you on that if I hadn't seen Reid connect with others- genuinely- before.

Still, my main problem with this is that Reid just didn't even try. I would agree that connecting in a prison environment wouldn't necessarily be as easy as it would be for Reid out in the field or while he was a free man, but I find it hard to believe that Reid wouldn't think to try to bond with anyone or that he wouldn't try a profiling trick to talk down someone being violent with him.

It doesn't mean it has to work. I just think the Reid I know wouldn't give up, and this Reid just gave in.

As JMO pointed out later-- those were one-on-one situations and it was generally after Reid had been able to profile the people he was talking down. If Reid had been able to talk to the men separately, he might have had a chance of negotiating-- but as a group, they have a pack mentality. Reid simply didn't have enough time to profile all of them or to figure out what to say to them as a group. It's his first day in there and he didn't have enough time to accurately profile each inmate. Plus, he's had missteps in the past where his attempts to negotiate have backfired or just not gone as planned. I don't think Reid was giving up. I think he just knew that he'd be wasting his breath if he tried to argue. All of the other times that Reid successfully negotiated with people, he still had some leverage and power in the situation. Despite the fact that he ultimately killed Tobias and saved himself, he still failed to actually negotiate with him effectively. Reid is well aware that you can't always negotiate with people. It's actually realistic that he wasn't able to talk them down because things just don't work like that in the real world. Sometimes it's a kobayashi maru situation.

Sometimes, even trained professionals can't get through to people. Anyone remember the time there was a guy who was about to jump to his death and the trained negotiators were not successful in talking him down, but Mohammad Ali volunteered to go up and talk to the guy and literally talked him off the ledge? It worked because Mohammad was someone the guy knew of and respected. He was able to form a connection. Reid will have to form connections with people for them to listen to him, and he hasn't had the time or opportunity thus far.

On 3/5/2017 at 4:58 PM, JMO said:

Reid has always done best one on one.  You put him in the middle of any crowd, and he's off kilter. Add to that the shock of being unexpectedly transferred to federal prison, on top of the shock of the entire situation in the first place, and you have someone not operating on all of his usual cylinders.  Given time, he'll probably get there.  He might already have begun studying his fellow prisoners while he was in the yard, and even in the cot area, but that was aborted when they fell upon him..  

I don't think profiling was going to help him in the situation he was in with the attempted assault.  He might have wanted to try talking down the thug with the knife, but he certainly wasn't going to do it with his mouth full of dirty sock.  

Once he gets his footing, I think we'll see him pull out some of his bag of tricks.  I do think he will profile Shaw---I think he will have to.  For all we know, he may find a way to gain some points with his fellow inmates through magic! 

I do agree that once Reid starts to get to know the inmates better he might learn what to say to appeal to them. But generally it works best in a one-on-one situation because the people might be less guarded and not feel like they have to put on a front for their fellow inmates.

I do hope that Reid will use his profiling skills to get through to at least some of the inmates.

Edited March 7, 2017 by zannej

[Danielg342]

When Reid is just getting to prison and sits down on his bed for the first time, he's definitely got time to examine the room and make snap judgements. No one is circling around him then, I wouldn't think.

None of this at all explains why Reid would decide that he could leave his stuff unattended in jail. That's foolish in the best of situations, and downright idiotic in jail. That one still baffles me.

I'd also think that when the "white gang" approaches him and offers him protection, he might humour them. He can't possibly expect to reasonably take on all those prisoners in a physical fight, let alone doing so by himself.

[normasm]

The "white gang" weren't offering protection, they were threatening him. Join our gang and do what we tell you, and you won't get beat/raped by anyone (but us). Plus, the way they pointed out the racial "us" versus "them" is disgusting to Spence, and he wouldn't want to throw over principles to have one set of animals protect him from another possible set. It's possible this was a ploy used by Calvin to see if he would go the white supremacy route. He didn't, and that may have played into Calvin rescuing him.

Oh, and wagging your plastic bin of stuff all over the place is probably not an option. My husband's a pretty brave, together guy, but I don't think he could navigate the minefield that is prison any better than what they've shown of Reid. You are not in a position to act, you only are able to react, at least for a while. 

Edited March 14, 2017 by normasm

[Danielg342]

I think I have said all I can. So I'm out.

[Droogie]

Daniel, I agree that Reid had time to profile the room, so to speak.  But I honestly think he simply did not have the ability.  First of all, he's in prison, just down from an international juggernaut complete with speedballs. He thought he'd be out on bail pending trial, not remanded to custody.  And he was no doubt reeling from being placed in gen pop.  

Everyone has the point when the brain can't process one more thing.  Maybe that was Spencer's.