S03.E13: Mad City: Smile Like You Mean It

[immortalfrieza]

On 1/27/2017 at 0:02 AM, Camera One said:

The show has become a bunch of super violent wackjobs killing people and not much more.

So... Gotham without Batman around, in other words.

[Chaos Theory]

On 1/27/2017 at 1:02 AM, Camera One said:

 The show has become a bunch of super violent wackjobs killing people and not much more.

That has always been the story of Batman.  A city that became so violent and out of control  that a vigilante became the symbol of justice.  Although Gotham has its flaws I think it is doing a great job telling that particular story.

[Camera One]

True, but there is no progression or depth in the mythology.  If it's not one villain, it's another, then they're "defeated" and then there's another, and then the first one pops back up, wash, rinse, repeat.   How many go-arounds does it take to establish Gotham is violent and out of control?  That was already established halfway through Season 1.  It's the same ferris wheel approach to every major character.  Jim the crazy vigilante and Jim the idealistic cop.  Penguin on a good week and Penguin on a bad week.  Selina putting up her walls and Selina being vulnerable.  Bruce the crusader and Bruce the stand-around-and-do-nothing.  For me, an origin story implies an actual story.  What the show does "well" I suppose is provide a standalone hour with psycho looney tunes.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Camera One

[Danielg342]

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

True, but there is no progression or depth in the mythology.  If it's not one villain, it's another, then they're "defeated" and then there's another, and then the first one pops back up, wash, rinse, repeat.   How many go-arounds does it take to establish Gotham is violent and out of control?  That was already established halfway through Season 1.  It's the same ferris wheel approach to every major character.  Jim the crazy vigilante and Jim the idealistic cop.  Penguin on a good week and Penguin on a bad week.  Selina putting up her walls and Selina being vulnerable.  Bruce the crusader and Bruce the stand-around-and-do-nothing.  For me, an origin story implies an actual story.  What the show does "well" I suppose is provide a standalone hour with psycho looney tunes.

This 100%. I felt like the first season actually had a bit of a progression in that we actually saw Gotham's "order" fall apart in the end of the Maroni and Falcone criminal empires, with Oswald being a very tenuous "king". The pieces were there for Oswald having to defend his newly acquired territory (perhaps from the rise of The Riddler) but the show just dropped it for some reason. Since then, I'm not sure the show has had much of a direction- S2 saw Galavan appear out of thin air, and here in S3 the writers seem to be in competition to see who can write the craziest villain.

It's probably why the show has literally lost half its audience since its debut (it used to get 2.0 in the ratings and now it gets 1.0)- when the same stories get repeated, people just lose interest. An army of loonies might work for one season or even a movie- but a series need to have a progression. Gotham doesn't do that.

[MarkHB]

Another bit from the pilot that I was reminded of was Selina's locket with a picture of her mom. I remember her telling someone (Ivy?) (Where is Ivy?) that her mom was off doing something and would come back for her. We all knew it was BS, but it was the one bit of softness Selina had room for, the one hope she clung to. And her mother came back and ruined it.

Also, was it my imagination or, in the closing title card (where we see "Gotham" and the skyline at the end), had they redone the skyline with the lights out?

[Kathemy]

The show has "progressed" a lot.

Edward has gone from a forensics specialist at GCPD to a mobster genius. Oswald has gone from an underling to the "King of Gotham" to dethroned by Theo Galavan and his mother murdered to the city's elected Mayor to (presumably) dethroned again. Bruce has gone from a sheltered little kid to a tough-as-nails teenager. Bruce and Selina have gone from the point where she dismissed him as a "silly kid" to actual boyfriend and girlfriend. Et cetera.

I think the only really stale character story is Jim Gordon.

[Danielg342]

I would agree that there has been character development, but actual progression is largely lacking. I don't feel like the changes any character has gone through since about the midway point of S2 has had any real impact on the overall story, and, in large part, everything kind of gets shoehorned just so the show can get back to "the status quo".

This season in particular we've seen Ozzie and Ed seemingly progress to a romance, one that could have had immense consequences for Gotham because those two characters are so complimentary for each other...but, Ozzie and Ed need to be rivals apparently (and Ozzie always seems to need to have people wanting to bring him down), so there go the producers, creating Isabella out of thin air just to break up a promising couple. It's particularly galling when you realize in every season Oswald Cobblepot has had someone who kept him down or brought him down- first it was Fish and Falcone, then in S2 it was Galavan, then here in S3 it was first the former Mayor and now Ed. How many times can Oswald be "defeated and rise again" before it loses all meaning? Sure, it establishes Ozzie's resilience, but then it begs the question- why isn't the Penguin learning so that he could actually fend off a challenge for a change?

Then we've got Selina and her mom. Here was a chance for Selina to gain some inner peace, have the familial bonds she was always missing and perhaps have a chance to know what a "normal" upbringing feels like...but, apparently Selina needs to be a street urchin, always distant but jealous of Bruce because he has what she doesn't, so in come the producers again to throw in that storyline where Selina's mother is really just playing Selina. I'll grant, in fairness, it's not a bad idea for a storyline- but I believe it should have been stretched much longer, with Selina and her mother adjusting to life around the Wayne Manor (perhaps with Alfred hooking up with Selina's mother), with the mother's debts and her attempts to fend off repaying them hanging over the new happy family like the Sword of Damocles, only for, perhaps, the season finale to undo all of that with the big realisation that the mother cannot fend off her debtors any longer.

At least then the impact of what Selina's mother did would actually have some resonance, because we've now actually seen what it would feel like for Selina to be betrayed like she was, because then we've actually seen what it would have been like to see Selina experience things she's never experienced before and always wanted.

Right now, with the rushed conclusion to the mother storyline it just feels like it was just another excuse for the producers to drive Selina and Bruce apart, to perhaps buy them enough time to concoct some other way to bring them back together. Of course, now that we've seen perhaps the one thing Selina has always wanted being pried from her all too quickly, I'm not sure there is another direction the character can go in, at least in a satisfying manner.

(Well, perhaps if Bruce and Selina had a kid...but the show would never go there)

What I'll close on is this:

Perhaps, in fairness, the show knew that it had a crazy ton of elements from the Batman universe to bring into this show, with the realization that just about everyone would wonder when X character shows up for the first time. It'd be a daunting task for even the best of writers, so I can understand that perhaps skimming on things like overall character depth is a necessary evil.

I just believe the problem is that the show has lost its overall focus, and we've not had anything new to experience since Hugo Strange unleashed his monsters in S2. The potential was there for Gotham to have Strange operate as some kind of "monster manipulator" who possess superior strength and intellect requiring the GCPD to ally themselves with a vigilante unafraid to kill the monsters, creating essentially a "prelude" to Batman. Perhaps this vigilante's death at the end of S3 or S4 creates the vacuum that eventually only gets filled by Batman.

Then there was also the very intriguing possibility of Ozzie as Mayor using the law to really take control of the underworld and take it to new directions. What better way to protect your own interests than to control the forces that would oppose them? A whole season of Ozzie and Ed causing havoc in this manner, showing how useless the law could be in the wrong hands would also start the whispers that a vigilante could really sound like a good idea.

Unfortunately, the show gets so worried about "the status quo" and being loony that it's lost sight of the wider picture, and that I think is where the real problem lies.

[Chaos Theory]

But @Danielg342 yes it kinda does have to do all those things.  It's kinda the nature of the show.  If Bruce and Salina walk hand in hand into the sunset why would either of them become who they are destined to become?  Nygma and Oswald can't be happy together because they are who they are happiness will negnate either of them becoming the people they become.  If anyone besides his mother loves Oswald for more then five miniutes then Oswald might become a healthy dudecand not the Penguin and if Nygma could control his "other half" well.., you get the idea,

Of course the show always does need to get back to the status quo because it is the status quo and ultimately that is its biggest challenge and flaw. Bruce Wayne WiLL become Batman that's not exactly a surprise revelation.  What is or may be a surprise is the adventures he has along the way.  And maybe the road he takes to get there.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Danielg342]

9 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

But @Danielg342 yes it kinda does have to do all those things.  It's kinda the nature of the show.  If Bruce and Salina walk hand in hand into the sunset why would either of them become who they are destined to become?  Nygma and Oswald can't be happy together because they are who they are happiness will negnate either of them becoming the people they become. 

Of course the show always dies need to get back to the status quo because it is the status quo and ultimately that is its biggest challenge.  Bruce Wayne WILl become Batman that's not exactly a surprise revelation.  What is or may be a surprise is the adventures he has along the way.

I'll agree that it's a necessary evil and a literary challenge for the series. There's only so much leeway the writers actually have.

That said, I do believe the show hits the reset button too quickly. When it comes to Bruce and Selina, as long as by the end of the series they're apart, it shouldn't matter how long they're friends or lovers within the series. In fact, I think the longer they are together the more of an impact it will be when they finally have to separate. This is because we'd then get a chance to really get invested and have a greater sense of the feel for the bond between the two, giving the bond more meaning- and giving its inevitable separation that much harder of a punch.

This whole yo-yo thing where they are apart and then together and then apart again and then together leaves little time for anything to really develop and that's where I believe the opportunity is really being lost.

As for Oswald and Nygma, unless there's a Penguin-Riddler rivalry I'm not aware of in the comics, I see no reason to separate the two. When they're together, they build on each other's lethal tendencies and both seem to grow within their evilness, not lose it. They both bonded over the release evil gave to their struggles so I don't see why they could not develop that evil together.

Besides, impulsive Penguin and calculating Riddler are compliments to each other...it's the perfect evil duo. Even if they eventually have to be apart (which I don't think they need) I'd still love to see that play out over a season or three because it'd be too much fun.