Upon First Viewing

[joelene]

peaceout, I can't believe how similar our opinions are of both Angel and Buffy. I'm nodding along to everything you write, basically.

Season 4 is a favorite season of mine, but I remember being torn about it when it first aired. "This is so good! But wait, what the hell is s/he doing, this is absolutely ridiculous!" The premiere, Deep Down, is one of my favorite episodes of the whole series and there are so many other great ones in this season. I'm looking forward to your reactions, 'cuz you're gonna have a lot of strong ones!

[amensisterfriend]

Nosleepforme, we can agree t disagree on all of the above, but my new goal is to find one Angel-related opinion on which we agree :) I can usually find at least a little common ground with any fellow TV fan, so I'm excited to find something---maybe we have a few favorite episodes in common? A few LEAST favorite episodes in common?!  

I do agree that end-of-S3 St. Cordy robs the character of the sharpness that made her so distinct (though I still don't think she comes off anywhere near the 'precious and super cutesy wittle girl' that Amy Acker's Fred is). Part of me wonders if I'm too blinded by my dislike of Cordelia's S3 hair to objectively assess the character, though :)

Peaceout, I'm excited to hear your overall review of S4 and your thoughts on S5! S5 felt like a somewhat different show to me in many ways, so I'm always curious to see how new viewers perceive that final season.  

[peaceout]

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What I like about Kate is that she wasn't only tough and vulnerable, but also that she wasn't exactly written to be likeable, especially since potential love interests are usually always propped up to make the audience swoon. Kate was allowed to be complicated and to have a complicated relationship with Angel and I really loved that. 

Completely agreed. I miss her on the show, to be honest.

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peaceout, I can't believe how similar our opinions are of both Angel and Buffy. I'm nodding along to everything you write, basically.

:) I liked 'Deep Down!' Definitely the best premiere since the pilot. 

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Epic doomed romance only works so many times and Angel/Buffy already fulfilled that quota.

Exactly! And just in my opinion, but filled that quota really well. So that really is one of my most major annoyances with Cordy and Angel as a couple, that the forced epicness of it all just does.not.work. for me. 

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I'm so curious what you'll think of S4, peaceout!

I'm up till 'Spin the Bottle' so far. While I still have mixed feelings on the season even six eps in, I have to say that the desire to watch from one ep to the next is back. That urgency to watch one ep to the next had been missing since the Darla/Dru arc ended in Season 2 and only briefly returned for the Darla arc in Season 3. If there's that intangible 'enjoyability' factor one has with watching a season, it's back. So yay!

I am so fascinated with the Lilah and Wesley dynamic. I think it hit me in ep 4, when Wesley confronts her about having played him and Lilah responds she never would have if he had trusted her, that I'm actually really invested in their relationship. It is so messed up and yet I can see their pull towards one another too. The thing is though, clearly I see Lilah being more invested in it than Wesley, who seems to be using this thing with her as a comfort place holder till he gets a way back in with the team.

I've liked the way Angel has been handling Connor so far. It's again, beyond messed up, the entire dynamic. But David Boreanaz is playing that weary trepidation so well with regards to his son being in the mix. 

I also think the writing for Wesley is better this season than it was during the last half of season 3. Still HATING the triangle crap, but on the whole, I can see the motivations behind Wesley's actions a whole lot better so far. I think it's so obvious, his desperate desire to want to be accepted back in the fold. From rescuing Angel to helping with Cordelia, his resentment aside about being supposedly abandoned, all he wants is to be back with the team. I can believe that. And on some level, I really want that too. 

I've always been a bit meh on Lorne. No real strong feelings one way or the other but I am really enjoying his scenes so far this season. He has grown into a valuable player in the team and there's something about his presence that makes the team, I don't know, warmer? Especially in the wake of the now collapsed Wes and Gunn bond as well as Cordy circa season 1, early season 2. 

As much of a retread that Spin the Bottle was of Tabula Rasa, and even other elements I think like the cross as a bomb detector the way Xander used it in one ep of Buffy if I recall, I still thoroughly enjoyed parts of the episode. Terrific performances by everyone. Wesley and Cordelia were especially hilarious. In fact I enjoyed the funny bits so much I literally rewound to watch certain scenes again. Great stuff. 

But now here's the thing. I HATED the non whammied parts of the episode. I weep at what has become of Wes and Gunn. When Gunn asked him 'what happened to you man?' I wondered that too. I can see how from his point of view Wesley thinks he was abandoned but I don't like the feeling that the show is aligning with that point of view too. I hate the triangle. Supersymmetry seemed to have been constructed as an ep only to facilitate the contrivance of Fred gravitating towards Wes and away from Gunn. There goes my 'ship. And I still find nothing appealing about Wes and Fred together.

I don't know what the hell is up with Cordy. Or what the writers are doing with her. I think I give up trying to make sense. I actually enjoyed parts of her return in 'Slouching Towards Bethleham' and 'Spin the Bottle' but I'm just so very confused with this higher being, then bored with it, then suddenly returning and then the flashes of what she saw. I mean, WTF is going on??

And oh my god. Do not even get me started on how squicked out I am by Cordy and Connor together. Just a WORLD of eww. I can't comprehend at all what would make the writers think this was a good idea, on any level.

[peaceout]

Ok, NOW we're talking! I watched 'Apocalypse Nowish' and 'Habeas Corpses' last night and I am SO into things now. Yes, I am *completely* and beyond squicked out by Cordy and Connor, ( on which I have a theory. I'll come to it in just a bit) but I have loved the dramatic tension created in these last two eps as well as the action. 

The whole slow but sure buildup of something ominous in Apocalypse Nowish was so well done, resulting in that explosive climax. I thought the rooftop fight sequence was incredibly well orchestrated in establishing that finally in this new enemy, they've found a foe whose sheer physical might and power is just too strong to go up against. It was such a great case of 'show, not tell.' And then the rain of fire and Wesley telling Lilah that some kind of reckoning is coming and it was time to choose sides. It all felt like it was really leading somewhere big, and you can't get bigger than that beast. It literally looked as if it was made from hellfire. I also loved the scene where they finally figured out the W&H files and it seemed such a fitting reminder for Gunn to have figured things out, especially in the context of recent eps, that Gunn IS more than just the muscle. Another moment I really loved from this ep was the scene in which Angel decides to go and confront the creature and he's handing weapons to everyone and passes one to Wesley too. It was such a great and seamless way to bring Wesley back in to the fold. No speechifying, nothing schmaltzy just, this is it. The stakes are high. you in or out. Terrific. 

I loved Habeas Corpses too. Again, great use of that slow tension being built up. There were so many scenes that could have dragged or been boring but not a moment seemed filler. And it had some great character moments for Lilah too. Who I'm now really worried for. 

What I've really loved about these last two eps is the set up, which seems to genuinely be terrifying. We have a big bad whose agenda while unknown, so far seems to be getting rid of W&H as a player, which is very interesting. Not to mention the connection to Connor. Whatever that may be. And it's also interesting that it's not just the physical might of this thing, but it surely must be connected somehow to some kind of other even more powerful force to have taken out the 'little girl' in the White Room. I cannot wait to find out more.

Now, about Cordelia. There is something now so obviously off about her that I can't help but wonder if it's purposeful. Are we meant to think something is off because it is? There's this strangeness to the way Charisma is even playing certain scenes (btw, was she pregnant at the time? Just curious) that makes me wonder if this creature is actually connected to her as well as Connor. Is Cordelia and Connor being together somehow bringing this creature to the fore... And obviously this would mean that Cordelia was either corrupted somehow during her time 'upstairs' or she's being manipulated somehow. Either way, I'm beginning to think that the demon who took her up, Skip, might be involved. Maybe this goes as far back to Cordy being made half demon. Skip was involved there too. I just can't seem to connect the dots or even understand the reasoning behind Cordelia sleeping with Connor, unless it was being done as part of a design for something greater, more sinister. This would also fit with the girl in the White Room telling them at the end that the answer was 'among them.' Or, I'm completely wrong and this thing will play out entirely differently, lol.

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What did you think of Gwen? I loved that character.

 

 

 

I thought she was great fun. Had some nice chemistry with Angel too. Wouldn't mind seeing her back.

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RIP Andy Hallett.

Omg, that's so sad to hear. :( Did he pass away during the show's run??

Edited December 11, 2016 by peaceout

[Dev F]

On 12/9/2016 at 0:50 AM, peaceout said:

Completely agreed. I miss her on the show, to be honest.

I always assumed that the writers planned for the character to return for season 3 but had to do a light rewrite of her arc when Elisabeth Röhm got cast on Law & Order. I'm referring to the story of Kate Justine, the tough but troubled woman who is drawn into Holtz's orbit because of her desire for revenge after vampires kill her father twin sister.

[Dee]

I feel like the back half of Season 3 and a good portion of Season 4 was stunted because the writers desperately wanted the end result (Connor being kidnapped & everything that came with it) without caring what they had to do to the characters to get there.

Thus Gunn & Cordy were hamstrung so Wes can take off with Connor which leads to a lot of inconsistent storytelling and wonky character work throughout the next couple of seasons.

[peaceout]

Oh well, looks like I was completely wrong about my Cordelia theory. It's neither her nor Connor, but Angelus who fits the 'the answer is among you' bill. I think bringing Angelus forth was the worst idea ever but I guess it'd been a while since we saw him. 

I'm up to 'Soulless' now. Where is Lilah?! I enjoyed Gwen's return tremendously in 'Long Day's Journey.' I enjoyed the ep on the whole except for the Gunn-Fred-Wes nonsense, but I'm trying to just make peace with that now. I'm resigning myself to the fact that the show is determined to put Wes and Fred together. I also hated the Cordy and Angel conversation. Cordelia seems so incredibly unaware or delusional about her actions. I'm glad Angel told her the 'get over it' mantra is easier said than done although him trying to pettily evoke jealousy in Cordy through Gwen was ridiculous too. This whole romantic angle between them just makes my head hurt. But on the whole I enjoyed the episode. The beast's plan is pretty dark, no pun intended. 

With 'Awakening' I straight away thought something was up when Wes and Angel had their little apology moment with the cheesy smiles and all. Then progressively things just got schmaltzier and schmaltzier whatwith the declaration of love and making peace with Connor and even Gunn and Wes reconciling. And then of course sex with Cordelia which ended with Angel taking Buffy's name. I mean, lol. I can't tell you what a kick I got out of that if only because it appeased in a totally ridiculous and petty way the Angel and Buffy fan in me that despite everything that happened in his 'perfect' day, Angel still drew back to Buffy in that one moment there at the end. Although obviously, this is my interpretation of the ep. I could be wrong. In fact I'd really like to hear what you guys made of it. The way I saw it was that they set things up  at the start with Cordy saying Angel was about as far removed from perfect happiness right now as he possibly could be. Hence then the shaman having to give Angel more than just a moment, but a series of developments that led to his perfect happiness, which included an apology from Wes, seeing all his friends happy and together, killing the beast, getting a declaration of love from Cordy, reconciling with Connor and then making love to Cordy. The Buffy thing was such, SUCH an unexpected surprise but in my opinion I really did see it as a shout out that even now, Angel's idea of perfection still subconsciously carries a notion of Buffy somewhere in there. Or I'm just a delusional 'shipper, lol. I am willing to concede that.

I liked 'Soulless' though I mean, these people are incredibly dumb with how they're interacting with Angelus. And I am extremely confused about how Angelus managed to remove the soul with him still being locked in the cage. I'm beginning to get that awfully confused feeling I so often had during The First's storyline on Buffy season 7...

Thanks for the info on Charisma's pregnancy, nosleepforme. Very sad news about Andy Hallet. That's now both him and Glenn Quinn. May they RIP. 

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I'm referring to the story of Kate Justine, the tough but troubled woman who is drawn into Holtz's orbit because of her desire for revenge after vampires kill her father twin sister.

That's really interesting. I wish we would get some kind of return appearance, although I did like how she and Angel made peace with each other in her last ep. She had such a complex, layered arc. 

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I feel like the back half of Season 3 and a good portion of Season 4 was stunted because the writers desperately wanted the end result (Connor being kidnapped & everything that came with it) without caring what they had to do to the characters to get there.

Yes, you're right, story or characters be damned, just get to that point. 

[peaceout]

nosleepforme no, I haven't! Last ep I saw was in fact Soulless. The holidays were crazy busy and then some family stuff and work stuff popped up exactly around the same time and I honestly have not had the time. I had a real urge to want to go back to the show even up till late December but then I sort of just...forgot. Things have calmed down a bit now though, so I hope to complete the show at some point soon. 

[Goldmoon]

Peaceout, do finish the show.  S5 has some great surprises and my favorite episode, "Smile Time."  No spoilers.

[Goldmoon]

Peaceout, if you are going to watch season 5 on DVD, there is a "featurette" about "Smile Time" on Disc One.  Do not watch it before you watch the episode!  It spoils all the surprises in that ep.  At the time of its first airing, ST was the most insane thing I had seen on tv.  Easily Angel's best episode. I know, I need to put this in: YMMV.

[cleo]

Well I'm a few eps into season 3, after watching Season 1 and 2. It's not technically first viewing, as I watched Angel once about 10 yrs ago, but my memory is terrible so it's kind of like the first time. I remember some of the major plot points, but vaguely, and I probably don't remember when different things happen.

I really enjoyed Seasons 1 and 2, and started 3 with mixed feelings bc I recall hating aspects of the show in the later seasons just not sure what or when lol. I just finished watching Billy. I thought it was a good ep overall. I know Wesley is supposed to be scary or whatever but I found him almost funny. The men hating women theme seemed over simplistic and over the top. I still liked the ep, though, I guess it was well done? I liked the reference to The Shining. I thought the actor playing Billy did a good job.  

I don't mind Fred as a character, but not really into the whole Wes/Fred/Gunn triangle. I remember liking Illyria much more than Fred, but I remember that is another season.

I hate Holt, the actor and the character. Hate his scratchy voice. So it was one of the earlier eps in season 3 when he was introduced, and it just felt so shoved in to the Angelus history, forced. 

Fredless- they did fool me, I totally thought her parents were evil. 

I liked Carpe Noctum, but man Whedon and co really like the whole body switching thing.

Cordelia is less fun than she was, for sure.  

(I hope it's okay I posted here, I would have posted in a Season 3 thread, but I don't think there is one...)

[illdoc]

On 3/3/2018 at 9:37 PM, cleo said:

I hate Holt

I believe his name is Holtz (with a Z)--Daniel Holtz

[Dev F]

On 3/3/2018 at 9:37 PM, cleo said:

I just finished watching Billy. I thought it was a good ep overall. I know Wesley is supposed to be scary or whatever but I found him almost funny. The men hating women theme seemed over simplistic and over the top.

Yeah, I always thought it would've been more interesting and more terrifying if instead of just spouting woman-hating cliches, Wes and Gunn were motivated by a form of misogyny their characters might actually possess. Like, Wesley might harbor some resentment toward assertive women, considering he trained his whole life to serve as a Watcher only to have two Slayers disobey him and get him fired in disgrace. And Gunn might resent supposed female frailty, since he spent his whole life fighting to save a little sister who ultimately went off and got herself killed. I could easily see both of those backstories reflected in their Billy-induced anger toward tiny, willful Fred.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Dev F

[cleo]

13 hours ago, Dev F said:

ike, Wesley might harbor some resentment toward assertive women, considering he trained his whole life to serve as a Watcher only to have two Slayers disobey him and get him fired in disgrace.

yeah if Wes had done this it would have much more effective and creepy

[illdoc]

27 minutes ago, cleo said:

13 hours ago, Dev F said:

Wesley might harbor some resentment toward assertive women, considering he trained his whole life to serve as a Watcher only to have two Slayers disobey him and get him fired in disgrace.

yeah if Wes had done this it would have much more effective and creepy

Except, Fred is the opposite of "assertive"---he'd have to menace Cordelia instead.

[Delphi]

On 3/13/2018 at 1:19 PM, illdoc said:

Except, Fred is the opposite of "assertive"---he'd have to menace Cordelia instead.

I think it'd be almost impossible for Wesley in any form to menace Season 3 Cordelia.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎04‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 3:37 AM, cleo said:

Well I'm a few eps into season 3, after watching Season 1 and 2. It's not technically first viewing, as I watched Angel once about 10 yrs ago, but my memory is terrible so it's kind of like the first time. I remember some of the major plot points, but vaguely, and I probably don't remember when different things happen.

I really enjoyed Seasons 1 and 2, and started 3 with mixed feelings bc I recall hating aspects of the show in the later seasons just not sure what or when lol. I just finished watching Billy. I thought it was a good ep overall. I know Wesley is supposed to be scary or whatever but I found him almost funny. The men hating women theme seemed over simplistic and over the top. I still liked the ep, though, I guess it was well done? I liked the reference to The Shining. I thought the actor playing Billy did a good job.  

I don't mind Fred as a character, but not really into the whole Wes/Fred/Gunn triangle. I remember liking Illyria much more than Fred, but I remember that is another season.

I hate Holt, the actor and the character. Hate his scratchy voice. So it was one of the earlier eps in season 3 when he was introduced, and it just felt so shoved in to the Angelus history, forced. 

Fredless- they did fool me, I totally thought her parents were evil. 

I liked Carpe Noctum, but man Whedon and co really like the whole body switching thing.

Cordelia is less fun than she was, for sure.  

(I hope it's okay I posted here, I would have posted in a Season 3 thread, but I don't think there is one...)

Personally I thought Alexis killed it as evil Wesley, it showed what great range he had as actor, J August is pretty good in that one too. Fred never grew on me, she was that stock Whedon character the adorable female nerd who you see time and again in his works, Illyria was more interesting. Holtz is great, you know he's justified in his vengeance and I like his relationship with Justine (originally supposed to be Kate but she changed her identity and became a lesbian DA in New York instead).  

[cleo]

On 26/03/2018 at 8:08 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

I like his relationship with Justine (originally supposed to be Kate

I didn't know about this....glad it was Justine and not Kate, I like the Kate character as she was. I disagree Holtz was justified, I think at this point he has become a bad guy himself. Didn't Angel make the point that as a result of Holtz's crusade many innocents died, and now he has aligned himself with demons? I like the scene where Lilah first meets him and I can't remember the line but she goes up to him and says: 'evil'? or 'good guy'? or something like that, questioning what side he is aligned with. I just find revenge causes more harm, but jmo. 

I watched Birthday. It was ok, but really seemed to just set up the whole Angel loves Cordelia thing. They really did get the cutest baby for Connor.

[Delphi]

I don't think holtz was justified in his vengeance either.  Mostly because he was hunting Angelus, a demon who didn't truly exist anyhow.   But also because  the vengeance that Holtz was seeking can't ever be justified, even in definition they are entirely two different concepts.   Holtz was unable to set aside his bitterness and anger to be rational and objective.   He was on a crusade,  crusades are hardly ever the right couse to take. 

[Dee]

I hate Spike but his reaction to Puppet Angel will never not be funny.

[cleo]

I just watched Loyalty. I pretty much hated it.

Hated Gunn and Fred angsting over whether they can date and work together. I dislike the couple, I don’t think they have chemistry, mainly bc I’m not a big fan of Fred, except when she’s Illyria, so I don’t think it’s the actress, more the character.

Justine is not that bright. She asks Holtz- how can these humans work with Angel, he’s a vampire. Two seconds later Sah Jong appears, but no problems with that! Also no problems with plotting against these humans that are killing vampires. Ummm shouldn’t that mean they’re on the right side? All just dumb. I can’t find any sympathy for them.

And Wesley worst of all. I can’t find any sympathy for him either. So a girl doesn’t like you. So your father doesn’t like you. (My mother doesn't like me, so I know what it's like). But you betray the people that have stood by you and supported you? Angel is no shrinking violent, he knows what he is capable of as Angelus, there is no reason Wesley couldn’t have told him and they could have worked on it together.

I guess they had to do something so Vamp jr didn’t become a permanent cast member but hate the approach. They should have just done what soaps did- SORAS (Sudden Onset Rapid Aging Syndrome) or something, and had Pete Campbell appear one day. All they needed to do was say – magic!

I miss Cordelia too.

Don’t know when I can get through the next ep.

ETA: Holtz and crew are also just boring.

Edited April 10, 2018 by cleo