S04.E13: Persona Non Grata

[Guest]

From now on please discuss any previews here.

[kokapetl]

On 09/06/2016 at 0:59 PM, gwhh said:

What agency did Philip baby mom work for back in the USSR?  

 

In soviet russia we have Pepsi not Coke.   

 

Please God fix Matt hair style. It is awful beyond belief.  Now that I have said that. I can sleep. 

 

I think phillip son in the USSR.  Have fiends in height places because of his real father.  I mean it takes a lot of pull to get one of a commie nut world and back on the street.   Imagine how crazy Phillip would go when he got home and found his son in there.  

Phillip son a chip off the old block. He trying to defect also.  

I don't know how hard it is to get out of the USSR but I am betting it almost mission impossible level of hard. 

Pepsi traded for Stoli. Not a fair swap. 

[Nash]

I think Aderholt was saying something just to keep William talking; he's not an idiot; it's also a hint of law enforcement gallows humour.

[Roseanna]

On ‎9‎.‎6‎.‎2016 at 6:45 AM, AGuyToo said:

So Misha is real.

I had wondered whether Gabriel and the Center were just lying to Philip about Misha in an attempt to manipulate him. But apparently they were telling the truth; he exists.

 

On ‎9‎.‎6‎.‎2016 at 6:50 AM, Umbelina said:

Yeah, Gabe seems to be more honest than I thought.

It was Irina who revealed to Phillip that she had born his son.  

As for Gabriel, I am surprised how many believed that Elizabeth's mother was a fake (how would that been possible?) and Mischa didn't exist.

Of course KGB could and did lie, even for its own agnets (just as other intelligence agencies as le Carré showed in The spy who came in from the cold), but it's not a good method to lie all the time, especially as the lie could be revealed.

One can also use truth to manipulate people and it usually works much better, just as it was shown how Gabriel used Mischa and his fighting in Afghanistan to strenghten Phililip's motive.("family").

But once the truth was no longer useful (Mischa had been put in the mental hospital because he had criticized the war), Gabriel didn't no longer tell Phillip it.

However, Mischa was released from the hospital because he had powerful friends, that is KGB. So even if Phillip doesn't know it, his son has been taken care of, unlike others in the same situation, obviously because he does so valuable a job in the US.

Which makes me ask: is Mischa going to the US on his own or with the secret help of KGB?  

On ‎9‎.‎6‎.‎2016 at 6:57 AM, crgirl412 said:

Philip about William to Gabe, "He bitched and moaned and was...an asshole....."  ha ha ha!!!

I'm surprised that they all don't trust William more.  If they thought that he was so easily swayed, why didn't they stop using him??  Would either side stick with someone they thought would turn so quickly?  I doubt it.  That seems like a misstep on the part of the show.

Even if one doesn't like a person, one can trust him. And even if can trusts him to do something dangerous, one doesn't necessarily trust him not to break down in the interrogation.

Considering how William had behaved before ("he bitched and moaned"), it was a quite logical conclusion to make that he would break down. Actually, most people do - it's even a practice that if one doesn't for some time, it's honorable enough - one has given time others to escape.  

In this case: many people can make a suicide in the situation where William was in, but how many dare to do such a painful method he did? One can never know for sure how a person reacts in front of the ultimate choice. That we saw with Martha - she, if any, seemed to be a person who would have chosen a suicide but she didn't.        

Edited August 5, 2017 by Roseanna

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

It was Irina who revealed to Phillip that she had born his son.  

As for Gabriel, I am surprised how many believed that Elizabeth's mother was a fake (how would that been possible?) and Mischa didn't exist.

I never thought Elizabeth's mother was a fake but I thought Mischa totally could have been. Philip himself questioned it when Irina told him. He knew, after all, that she was a liar because either she was lying back when she broke up with him or she's lying now. When he asked her flat-out if the story about the son was true she gave him a coy answer.

Once Gabriel told the same story I figured it was true--or else Irina's whole story about running away was false. (Because if the KGB was telling the same story about Mischa she must have told it to Philip with their knowledge.) But I always held out hope that it was false because the whole Irina story drives me crazy and I kept hoping they'd drop it. According to this ep he's going to the USSR only with the help of his mother who managed to send him a box full of everything he needs to escape. (Someone elsewhere referred to it as a scavenger hunt and that does feel like what it is.)

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

In this case: many people can make a suicide in the situation where William was in, but how many dare to do such a painful method he did? One can never know for sure how a person reacts in front of the ultimate choice. That we saw with Martha - she, if any, seemed to be a person who would have chosen a suicide but she didn't.        

I remember liking that the actress said that Martha held out the possibility for suicide for herself once she got the USSR. I could imagine her telling herself that if she didn't like it she would just kill herself--but that would really just be a way of getting her through to the next step. Really she wasn't ever going to choose suicide.

[Roseanna]

On ‎15‎.‎6‎.‎2016 at 11:05 AM, SlackerInc said:

Do you actually think he's stupid in a professional sense?  Because they have shown him "Sherlocking" a number of times.

I think that Stan is only mediocre professionally. Aderholt is much better than Stan. Of course it helps that A has no personal relationships with the KGB people. Also, as he just came to FBI, he is able to see matters from outside. Well, Stan also came in S1, but he was never treated as an outsider like he later treated A.

In any case, A treats matters only on an intellectual plane, Stan lets his emotions to blurr his vision. His handling with Nina was completely unprofessional and soon it was she who manipulated him. That was just the opposite to Phillip and Martha: she never got an advantage.  

Also, as Nina said, Stan is too much a cop who wants to catch the spies instead of turning them. I would add that hate Stan showed after his collegue's murder is no good motive in his profession and I don't mean only Vlad's murder but generally: hate prevents to understand one's opponent which would help to catch and turn them.

Generally, FBI seems to be good when they get hints that can solved with doing basic traditional work. But they are less good with taking initiatives and bad than worse understaning their opponents. Stan never bothered to learn Russian.

In connected to that, Stan's macho personality is definitely a minus in understanding people of different kind.    

[Nash]

I'd have to agree; I don't see how on current showing, the FBI in general and S&A in particular have much hope of breaking the network. We saw them pick up the pace once Martha was exposed but that was playing catch up. 

I enjoy watching Stans story and I think he was originally a good field agent who was sent undercover into a white supremacist group because he looked the part and could play it. He's now quite damaged I think which explains why we see only flashes of brilliance. 

And the FBI  I suspect - thought long term sleeper agents to be a purely British problem....

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Generally, FBI seems to be good when they get hints that can solved with doing basic traditional work. But they are less good with taking initiatives and bad than worse understaning their opponents. Stan never bothered to learn Russian.

I love this aspect of it, that we originally saw Stan struggling with Russian and as far as we know he never really mastered it (or was even able to hold the most simple of conversation in it) despite being in very intense classes at first. It didn't seem like his original partner was much good at it either. And we absolutely never see him develop any greater understanding of Russians. I mean, there's no scene where he says something that makes it sound like he's gotten some understanding of their different pov. When Nina mentions Anna Karenina he's never read it and doesn't seem to see any reason to, even though it would give him something to talk about with her. Instead he really seems to just look for things in Russian characters where they reflect his own thinking (like Oleg giving up William)--otherwise as late as season 4 he's calling them animals.

But it also seems like it's a problem with the FBI in general. I think if Stan was in an office where there was more of a general attitude about getting to know the enemy and learn Russian, for instance, he'd be more likely to do it. Instead he's really never pushed to get out of his comfort zone. At this point it would seem very unrealistic if they tried to say that oh, Stan's been learning Russian all this time and is actually good at it, even though we never see him getting any practice.

[Umbelina]

Stan's actually had a pretty fair run as far as solving cases and catching bad guys.  I think it all gets overshadowed by him not suspecting the Jennings.  Actually, he even did that until his wife told him to chill, and suggested the mailman and others they naturally come in contact with in their lives.

He caught the Russian lady who was pretending to defect.

He stopped the USSR from getting a very dangerous bio-weapon because of the relationship he'd developed with Oleg.

He stopped the assassin on the roof top.

He got valuable information from Nina until her patriotism kicked in, and he was the one to catch and then turn her.

He's had commendations during the show and pre-show for his work inside the white supremacists.

He was the ONLY one in the office to suspect Martha, and it was almost solely his efforts that DID expose her.

 

I think there have been other things as well.  Stan's not a bad FBI agent, he's not perfect, but no one is a perfect human.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Stan's actually had a pretty fair run as far as solving cases and catching bad guys.  I think it all gets overshadowed by him not suspecting the Jennings.  Actually, he even did that until his wife told him to chill, and suggested the mailman and others they naturally come in contact with in their lives.

He caught the Russian lady who was pretending to defect.

He stopped the USSR from getting a very dangerous bio-weapon because of the relationship he'd developed with Oleg.

He stopped the assassin on the roof top.

He got valuable information from Nina until her patriotism kicked in, and he was the one to catch and then turn her.

He's had commendations during the show and pre-show for his work inside the white supremacists.

He was the ONLY one in the office to suspect Martha, and it was almost solely his efforts that DID expose her.

 

I think there have been other things as well.  Stan's not a bad FBI agent, he's not perfect, but no one is a perfect human.

All that makes Stan only mediocre in his profession. He can use traditional police methods but he thinks inside the box.

It's not that that Stan has flaws - all protagonists have them - but his flaws are arrogance and bigotry.     

[Umbelina]

Actually, catching an internal spy is a pretty damn big "get."  So is exposing a KGB plant who was up to who knows what.  Getting TWO KGB agents to give him secrets is also huge.  All of that in under 4 years?  Impressive.

I don't think any of that makes him mediocre, and it's not just thinking outside the box, it's recognizing behavior from his experience.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Umbelina

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Actually, catching an internal spy is a pretty damn big "get."  So is exposing a KGB plant who was up to who knows what.  Getting TWO KGB agents to give him secrets is also huge.  All of that in under 4 years?  Impressive.

I don't think any of that makes him mediocre, and it's not just thinking outside the box, it's recognizing behavior from his experience.

Comparing with John le Carré's or Deighton's classical heroes, Stan is definetely mediocre in his profession.

But his chief fault is that he lacks redeeming virtues as a human being. 

[Clanstarling]

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Stan's actually had a pretty fair run as far as solving cases and catching bad guys.  I think it all gets overshadowed by him not suspecting the Jennings.  Actually, he even did that until his wife told him to chill, and suggested the mailman and others they naturally come in contact with in their lives.

He caught the Russian lady who was pretending to defect.

He stopped the USSR from getting a very dangerous bio-weapon because of the relationship he'd developed with Oleg.

He stopped the assassin on the roof top.

He got valuable information from Nina until her patriotism kicked in, and he was the one to catch and then turn her.

He's had commendations during the show and pre-show for his work inside the white supremacists.

He was the ONLY one in the office to suspect Martha, and it was almost solely his efforts that DID expose her.

 

I think there have been other things as well.  Stan's not a bad FBI agent, he's not perfect, but no one is a perfect human.

The most riveting scene in the first episode in the series is when he breaks in the Jennings' garage to check the car, and Philip is in there with his gun at ready. Stan's instincts were dead on, but he didn't find the evidence, so he shrugged that off to paranoia. A reasonable decision, given that immediately thinking your neighbor is a Russian spy based only on the make of the car is generally a bit over the top. I think he's a pretty decent agent in real world terms.

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

Comparing with John le Carré's or Deighton's classical heroes, Stan is definetely mediocre in his profession.

But his chief fault is that he lacks redeeming virtues as a human being. 

Stan's not a classical hero, and really can't be compared to Le Carre or Deighton's heroes whose only purpose in the novels are to solve the unsolvable and be preternaturally excellent.

This story is set in a more "real" world, with people whose lives and professions have their ups and downs, and who all have flaws - like real human beings. Compared to a real life FBI agent, Stan's accomplishments are not mediocre.  

Stan's an asshole, but, for me at least, he doesn't lack all redeeming virtues. 

Edited August 9, 2017 by Clanstarling

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

This story is set in a more "real" world, with people whose lives and professions have their ups and downs, and who all have flaws - like real human beings. Compared to a real life FBI agent, Stan's accomplishments are not mediocre.  

 

Also I think he's at a disadvantage because the audience isn't solving the case along with him. We know much more than he does. I've heard people list lots of reasons why Stan should have figured out the Jennings are spies by now that really depend on Stan knowing he's on a TV show and what characters are on that show and that the spies he's looking for are among those characters. IRL far bigger tells have gone by without anyone catching on.

But it is true, I think, that Stan's skillset is limited--he's not a character with a supernatural ability to sniff out spies. Sandra was probably at least partly right that his initial suspicion of the Jennings was about him being on high-alert after his own undercover work--but only partly. He may also have unknowingly "recognized" something about Philip that mirrored his own feelings when he was undercover or something. (Since Stan is no expert on Russians it's not like he'd pick up on anything of that nature.)

[Nash]

Stan's instincts told him the Jennings were a bit "off" but even in the suburbs there would be drugs stashes, illegal guns, tax dodging - even a long avoided parking ticket that might get an apparently law abiding citizen a bit twitchy when a fed moves in next door. So Stan had a vibe and was actually quite sensible in agreeing he was over reacting.

yes , he's no Peter Guillam let alone George Smiley but tbh with the data to hand and no one to interrogate- would George Smiley break the network? The FBI needs intelligence and systematic use of it. They need a defector with access to the illegal project; without that they need to get a list of married couples with 2 kids in the DC/N Virginia/S Maryland area and start checking them. Good luck with that!

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Stan's not a classical hero, and really can't be compared to Le Carre or Deighton's heroes whose only purpose in the novels are to solve the unsolvable and be preternaturally excellent.

I think just the opposite: le Carre and Deighton don't concentrate on "solving the unsolvable" but the effect of intelligence work on George Smiley and Bernard Samson. When Smiley wins his opponent Karla, he loses morally. And always superiors betray and manipulate their agents.       

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, Nash said:

yes , he's no Peter Guillam let alone George Smiley but tbh with the data to hand and no one to interrogate- would George Smiley break the network? 

Do you remember how Connie Sachs worked: he knew Karla's methods? Or how money lead Smiley to Karla's Chinese mole?

Gabriel and Claudia have worked long in intelligence: they must have some practices they always use. 

Edited August 9, 2017 by Roseanna

[Nash]

Yes, you are absolutely right; iirc Karla avoided radios for example. 

The thing is for me - that Smiley knew he was looking for one mole in a group of four officers and yes, Karla's MO could help because that led to the mole's behaviour. 

This is a bigger area and far less leads. Money flows would be great - one could lead to the travel agency - but the FBI don't know where to look.

No doubt Gabriel and Claudia have an MO (as do P&E) but the FBI are handicapped because they don't know what it is, it's lost in the volume of the DC area. If they knew that "Boris" liked to meet in parks, avoided trains and liked dead letter drops in cemeteries , then they put the pavement artists (to use the Le Carre phrase) to work on those points. 

I'm interested in just what the FBI know about P&E,its a bit of a game I guess:

1 married couple

2 2 kids

3 the wife is pretty

4 he had an ID based on a dead child and the odds are that's the same for all their IDs

5 they are Caucasian 

Is that it?

I think the Feds should start cracking that list, swamp the streets by the Rezidentura (or any Russian premises) and keep at it until a KGB officer slips up or they get lucky. My money is on a TV world equivalent of a defector.

[Umbelina]

Yes, I was comparing Stan's work to real world FBI set in the eighties, not super spies from novels and big screen movies.

I think a real world FBI agent uncovering one internal spy that no one else suspected would be a career maker, but Stan's done much more than that.

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, Nash said:

I'm interested in just what the FBI know about P&E,its a bit of a game I guess:

1 married couple

2 2 kids

3 the wife is pretty

4 he had an ID based on a dead child and the odds are that's the same for all their IDs

5 they are Caucasian 

Is that it?

I think the Feds should start cracking that list, swamp the streets by the Rezidentura (or any Russian premises) and keep at it until a KGB officer slips up or they get lucky. My money is on a TV world equivalent of a defector.

I think they ought to go through the cases again. F.ex. the woman who was going to give Elizabeth a list and then changed mind - how did she meet her? There could be a pattern  how P & E find people who are willing to help them. 

[Nash]

Yes - but do the Feds know of those many of those cases? As viewers we know what's happened, the FBI only know parts (to them Gaad's death now looks like a KGB hit while we know it was a bungled approach). 

You'd imagine there was a record of KGB approaches to employees with security clearances but it's also a good bet that those records will be held by the various Govt bodies and shared very cautiously. 

I know this is negative for anybody who is cheering on the FBI! 

[Roseanna]

On ‎10‎.‎8‎.‎2017 at 10:08 AM, Nash said:

Yes - but do the Feds know of those many of those cases? As viewers we know what's happened, the FBI only know parts (to them Gaad's death now looks like a KGB hit while we know it was a bungled approach). 

Maybe one should even go through all "dark cases" in DC and search for similarities in the reports. I think Adelholt is good at finding clues.    

[Nash]

That's the sort of stuff - and yes Adelholt for the win. His seemingly inane and crass question "do you want a coke?", kept the dialogue going and led to the "she's pretty he's lucky" comment; they almost struck luck there