Criminal Minds Relationships

[mstaken]

This is the place to chat about CM relationships----existing romantic relationships and those which still exist only in fanfics, decidedly non-romantic relationships among past and current team members, relationships that you wish were more developed...etc.! I'll lamely kick us off :) 

I know that people have understandably mixed feelings about Gideon, but his relationship with Reid remains the most resonant and touching of the series for me. I really loved the subtly but surprisingly well-defined Gideon/Hotch relationship as well---especially in that first season, when we saw the tension between Hotch sincerely admiring and liking Gideon and hoping he was fully recovered to quietly fearing the day his role would require him to 'report' Gideon as not being fit for the field or taking him off the case. 

My favorite familial relationship: Reid and Diana. It's not even close! 

As for romantic 'ships, I'm not really a fan of any of the ones we've seen on the show though, admittedly, I'm not a very 'shippy person in general! Hailey was dull and vaguely unpleasant to me; I didn't see nearly enough of Maeve to care about her and Reid or see how they 'fit', and while cheery, simple Beth seems like an angst-free rebound relationship for Hotch, I can't bring myself to care. JJ and Will baffle me (I've already shared my theory that Will is actually a serial killer, right?! It would make both of them so much more interesting!). Kevin and Garcia don't really work for me either---somehow I always get this sense that Garcia thinks she's 'too good' for Kevin, and her continued over-the-top firting with Morgan is just irksome to me. Similarly, while JJ/Reid seems to be a popular 'ship, I never saw any chemistry between them---not even a genuinely close friendship, in fact---because JJ always exudes this haughty, condescending eye-roll-y Mean Girl vibe to me around Reid, like the popular girl forced to endure a class with the uncool geek. Even in the scene where JJ first discovers Reid sleeping in the office following Gideon's departure, I'm always surprised all over again by how cold, abrupt and unsympathetic she is with him, especially sicne she's allegedly the 'empathetic one.'   

I did really, really love the Elle/Reid dynamic---not necessarily as at all romantic, but just as two people who you wouldn't on paper think would get along, yet who had a natural connection and mutual respect.

I'm eager to hear other people's thoughts!   

Edited April 8, 2014 by mstaken

[IndependentMind]

I liked Reid/Premtiss a lot but not in a shippy way at all. I love how their friendship grew. I love how honest they could be with each other except of course during that ridiculous Lauren Reynolds arc.

I also liked JJ/Emily friendship In my opinion, JJ had the most chemistry with Emily. 

I like Emily and Hotch. Yes, that i ship but I also like how that relationship grew from Hotch not trusting Emily to doing everything he can to save her and threatening Clyde that he will ruin him if anything happened to her.

I liked Reid/Morgan friendship when we used to see it. 

[mstaken]

Independent Mind, I like the Hotch/Emily dynamic as well! I forgot to mention them in my rambling post, but I they always struck me as a nice mix of I-get-you similarities  and complementary differences. 

 

 

I liked Reid/Morgan friendship when we used to see it.

I'm torn on this one. I do really like some of the Reid/Morgan moments of those first few seasons, but I also feel like Reid brings out a really patronizing, condescending side of Morgan that irks me. To be honest, I don't especially enjoy Morgan around anyone except Rossi. 

Edited April 8, 2014 by mstaken

[IndependentMind]

I'm torn on this one. I do really like some of the Reid/Morgan moments of those first few seasons, but I also feel like Reid brings out a really patronizing, condescending side of Morgan that irks me.

I agree with you there. I also hate the whole "Big Brother" Morgan thing sometimes. Reid is a man. he is not a little boy.

That is why I liked Emily's approach with Reid. I especially loved the part where she tells Reid to read Gideon's letter again and why out of all of them, he only wrote to Reid. I loved how Emily understood that it was the drugs talking and not Spencer when he was being mean to her. 

[normasm]

This could be a very deep thread. Just sayin.

Relationships as evolved through the series: PART the ONE

Reid/Gideon: We start by knowing Reid is supporting a mentally fragile Gideon, who is brilliant and very troubled. We find out that Reid is equally, and in some important respects, more brilliant than Gideon. Reid sees Gideon as an archetype. He has feelings of father-worship, hero-worship. Gideon depends on Reid to be his protege, an affirmation of self-worth; by the same token, because he is constantly of two minds, he also hopes for Reid to fledge. He doesn't want the responsibility, ultimately, for that huge intellect, and, more importantly, for that huge, empathetic heart.

Reid expects nothing less than abandonment from everyone (especially the male ones) he loves and admires. The times he forgets this and leans on such people, serve to set him up for the fall. He forgets eventually with Gideon. It's the last time he forgets, even when he makes relationships with many on the team. The abandonment by Gideon sets Reid up to either grow up into his own man, or sink into sulking blame and self-pity. After a struggle, Reid opts for the former.

Edited April 9, 2014 by normasm

[IndependentMind]

This is a perfect example as to why I say JJ has no chemistry with any them but Emily. No matter how many times they pair JJ with Morgan. there is no connection at all. 

http://www.cbs.com/shows/criminal_minds/video/sPyyZurzQx1mGk71PG_66nKh170FUvQy/criminal-minds-what-happens-in-mecklinburg-sneak-peek-/

But with Emily, when Prentiss came back for the 200, they just click.

[IndependentMind]

Funny enough, it worked back then when Emily was imitating Morgan but Jj doing the imitating Morgan is just horrible.

[normasm]

OK, officially? These writers are DUMB AS ROCKS.

rocks...

[zannej]

Good points about Gideon and Reid. I also really like the assessment of Hotch and Gideon. I never really thought about it that way. I did notice that Hotch often deferred to Gideon but that he did seem to question him at times. 

I do think that JJ and Emily were the only ones I really saw as having a closer bond and having chemistry together. I absolutely loved the scene where Brad "the real FBI agent" was brought over by Prentiss and how JJ and Garcia reacted.

Reid and Elle were good. Reid seems to really empathize with people despite the fact that he was initially conceived as a human android like character that didn't understand feelings. I think part of the problem with Reid and family members was that he dealt with things differently and therefore didn't quite get that cold hard facts would be upsetting to family members rather than comforting or helpful. It's actually pretty common with intellectual people. But Reid was very keyed in to some of the emotions of the team members. I liked that Elle seemed to care about Reid and did have a big sister vibe and at the same time it was clear that Reid cared about her and wanted to help her. I would still love to know what happened after the cut when Reid and Elle were drinking the liquor in her hotel room. Did Reid pretend to drink more? Did he actually get drunk? Did Elle get totally smashed and say something awkward or weird?

I used to like the Reid/Morgan relationship although it has always been uneven. Morgan has been one to tease Reid but also to try to guide him. Morgan very rarely ever opens up to Reid about things and I don't know if we've ever seen Reid comforting him. I think it is because Morgan keeps his defenses up. Reid ribbing Morgan has been pretty rare.

I really liked the Reid/Hotch relationship in the beginning but now it seems like it is gone. It used to be that you could tell that Hotch was concerned with Reid and respected him and he paid attention and wanted to make sure Reid was ok, but at the same time, he wanted Reid to work efficiently. Reid seemed to key in to some of Hotch's moods and knew when something was wrong -- like in Damaged when Hotch was upset about Haley. Now Hotch just does not seem to be on top of things and doesn't seem to be noticing things about his team members like he used to. I miss the old Hotch.

Umm.. I actually liked Kevin and Garcia, although I do think there was a sense of Garcia perhaps feeling like she was too good for Kevin. I still think it totally sucked that she sabotaged a career opportunity for him so he wouldn't move away and then ended up pushing him out of her life. JJ and Will have zero chemistry. Hotch and Beth also have zero chemistry and I find Beth extremely annoying. Morgan and Savannah, I'm still waiting to see. I did like what we saw of Savannah in a previous episode. she seems intelligent and professional. I was hoping she would be a no-drama person. Reid and Maeve I think had great chemistry without even being on screen together so it is a shame they decided to fridge Maeve.

My dogs just started barking and made me lose my train of thought.

[mstaken]

Reid/Gideon: We start by knowing Reid is supporting a mentally fragile Gideon, who is brilliant and very troubled. We find out that Reid is equally, and in some important respects, more brilliant than Gideon. Reid sees Gideon as an archetype. He has feelings of father-worship, hero-worship. Gideon depends on Reid to be his protege, an affirmation of self-worth; by the same token, because he is constantly of two minds, he also hopes for Reid to fledge. He doesn't want the responsibility, ultimately, for that huge intellect, and, more importantly, for that huge, empathetic heart.

Reid expects nothing less than abandonment from everyone (especially the male ones) he loves and admires. The times he forgets this and leans on such people, serve to set him up for the fall. He forgets eventually with Gideon. It's the last time he forgets, even when he makes relationships with many on the team. The abandonment by Gideon sets Reid up to either grow up into his own man, or sink into sulking blame and self-pity.

This is one of the most brilliant CM-related analyses I've ever read. Thanks for posting it!  

 

 

 

I never really thought about it that way. I did notice that Hotch often deferred to Gideon but that he did seem to question him at times.

Exactly! I'm glad you get my take on Hotch/Gideon, which in its own sneaky way was easily one of the most interesting intra-team relationships of the series to me :)

And while I like Rossi well enough and have always adored the actor who plays him, I just don't think Rossi has been a uniquely, deeply or even consistently enough defined character to have equally layered and interesting relationships with the team. At the risk of beating that same 'but the earlier CM seasons were so much BETTER!' drum, I just don't see most (any?!) of the current intra-team relationships as even remotely complex or well thought out. They all seem relatively interchangeable to me now: They're all equally awesome and get along equally well and have more or less the same professional niches and very little differences in personality...*yawn* And I agree so much with how the Reid/Hotch relationship has devolved from something really interesting and at times even touching to something that's...just there. 

You know, I don't really see as much Prentiss/JJ chemistry as most do. I guess I just never quite felt that BFF-y 'click' between them that we're supposed to, in large part because I don't feel they did a good job of defining either character as an individual. (Though you guys know I loved Emily anyway, due almost exclusively to Paget Brewster rather than the writing!) I guess JJ wasn't *as* condescending, eyeroll-y and cold-even-when-we're-supposed-to-think-she's-warm around Emily as most others so, er, maybe that was JJ's best intra-team relationship by sad default?! ;)

It's kind of sad that even though Elle was on the show for less than 1/8th of CM's total run, her relationship with Reid was by far one of the best intra-team relationships of the series to me. 

Edited April 10, 2014 by mstaken

[normasm]

Thank you for that mstaken!

I agree that so many of the first season relationships were rich and complex. Hotch and Gideon are a perfect example. From Extreme Aggressor we get that Hotch is the leader, although Gideon is senior and a legend. Hotch is looking for the moment to step back into the wingman role, either by his assessment that Gideon is up to snuff, or by Gideon coming forth to claim it. That never happens, but it doesn't give Hotch free reign to assume the leader role. He just is the leader. Even to Reid, who worships Gideon, but recognizes his paralysis.

Hotch is seen as someone who admires Gideon, but shudders at his wife's suggestion of naming their son after him. He's ingratiating to the Seattle office, firm with the team, but he constantly has to juggle Gideon's moods. One can feel his fatigue, and this lasts right up to the point Gideon disappears. Hotch has other problems with Strauss, but it takes morgan to tell him, "we're doing just fine without Gideon." Huge sigh of relief!

[IndependentMind]

(Though you guys know I loved Emily anyway, due almost exclusively to Paget Brewster rather than the writing!) I guess JJ wasn't *as* condescending, eyeroll-y and cold-even-when-we're-supposed-to-think-she's-warm around Emily as most others so, er, maybe that was JJ's best intra-team relationship by sad default?! ;)

It's what i call Paget Magic:) She just seems to have chemistry with anyone you put with her onscreen. She even had chemistry with Jordan as dull as Jordan was. But I actually liked Jordan for Morgan or Tamara for Morgan more than Savannah.

Edited April 10, 2014 by IndependentMind

[normasm]

I really liked Jordan. She played fish-out-of-water really well, I thought. I thought she could have mopped the floor with Morgan, therefore, he did not make that move. I like that Jordan really struggled and freaked out with the job, her being comforted by Rossi was spot-on.

And, yeah, she had chemistry with Paget, but I agree with you, the sparkle that exists between Paget and anyone on the show has a lot to do with her skills. Her only rival in that making-the-other-actor-shine ability, IMO, is MGG.

[IndependentMind]

JJ used to have that, freak out and struggle  but now, she is the female version of Hotch. He is Superman and she is Wonder Woman. Who knows, maybe they will end up together. 

[Wilowy]

The boards have taken to calling them Batman and Robin, and even AJ had mentioned it. 

I don't see it. 

[IndependentMind]

Really? I see Hotch and Reid as more Batman and Robin especially after Gideon left.

[normasm]

Hotch and Reid haven't done anything together since Ep. 17, season 8...

I think JJ would rather be known as Catwoman than Robin, don't you think? And Batman they refer to is probably Morgan, not Hotch. Hotch is WheelsUpMan.

Edited April 10, 2014 by normasm

[Wilowy]

Probably. 

I do want to see more Hotch/Reid dynamic. Theirs is probably the friendship I miss most. 

[normasm]

I so agree, Willowy. The golden Hotch/Reid moments, where Hotch not only mentors him (more practically and with greater respect for Reid than Gideon ever did), but is somewhat in awe of him:

"He's only 24. Imagine what he'll know when he's 50."

Basically, Hotch never treated Reid like a kid, and Reid never treated Hotch like a dad. The fact that CM didn't have Reid and Hotch have some sympathetic bonding after Maeve's death is just stupid.

Edited April 10, 2014 by normasm

[Wilowy]

I'm hoping they still will. Like Hotch goes to touch base with Reid on how he's doing. I'd like that. 

Although we may never get it, remember he never followed up on Reid's drug problem (or nightmares or headaches), after that one awesome scene on the plane in EM.

[normasm]

But in Elephant's Memory, it was heavily implied that Hotch was as on top of Reid's sobriety as he could be. He knew what going to "a movie" meant, even though the rest were clueless (Rossi would have never pressed the issue, had he known). In my imagination (take that for just that), Hotch had been quietly instrumental in getting  Reid into BCC. He couldn't officially know anything, although he did admit the breach to Prentiss in In Name and Blood. I imagine Reid even going to him and hinting about his plight. Hotch figured a way to give him "permission" to recover.

There is a lot they (the writers) can do with implying plot twists. They don't have to hit us over the head with Reid waking every night to dreams of Hankel, or Hotch dreaming of Foyet. All they have to do is show a glimpse, like the BCC meeting Reid attended, which showed us so much about his struggle in just a few minutes. 

[zannej]

I felt they dropped the ball on the whole Reid and drugs thing. They could have done more with it but didn't want to. I'm not talking any major angst, but just some little things-- like, I wish "John" had made an appearance. I wish they had done a story where people from the BCC were turning up dead or comatose and Reid was still at the phase of not actually admitting to going to the meetings while knowing Hotch knew and he could say to Hotch privately that he saw them at the movies or that they went to see the same movies and Hotch would get it.

I also wish that Strauss had bumped into Reid at a BCC meeting. Unfortunately the writers were drinking too much h8orade for Reid at that time and didn't want to give him anything meaningful. I really got the sense that what they did give us was done so begrudgingly and that their attitude was "There! You had some Reid, now STFU!"

I really liked how Hotch and Reid were able to communicate with one another in "Revelations" and in "LDSK". Just hidden messages that ended up thwarting the unsubs.

I also wish we could find out just what happened on Reid's date with JJ. Gideon really pushed for Reid to ask her out and then all Reid would say was "top secret" or something afterward.

I liked when Rossi first came in how he gave Hotch a big hug and you could tell they liked one another. 

The thing of Hotch not trying to be a dad to Reid is spot on, although I still remember in "The Fox" when the one suspect shouted "Is THIS your DADDY?" to Reid. I love how Hotch recognized that the guy was being threatening and just stormed in there and told him to sit down. He trusted Reid, but he wanted to make sure he was safe.

[ForeverAlone]

I imagine that Reid was polite, but super awkward on the date with JJ, and she let him know directly or indirectly that while she considered him a friend, she didn't think of him that way. I can't see it being anything more than that. You go on a date, but don't click and don't want a second date. Not that I think JJ accepted Reid's date because she was genuinely interested in him.

In reality, CBS or the producers didn't want to go down the route of romance, and CBS nixed any possibility at the time of making Reid openly bisexual, so there was no way they wanted to develop anything futher. Not that I would have bought it in the slightest if JJ had returned Reid's feelings toward her.

[zannej]

Oh, I'm sure nothing happened between Reid and JJ and they were friendly with one another afterward so nothing was awkward. I wonder if they both just mutually realized that there was nothing going on or if Reid just recognized that JJ had no interest and either went along to be nice or because she really liked watching football. I also wonder if there was any fallout after The Fisher King because a lot of the info that was used against the team came from Reid telling his mother all sorts of details. Did they stop telling him things because of that? Or did they realize that he probably wouldn't share as much info with her after that?

I really hated the relationships with the rest of the team and Reid during a few seasons and episodes where they all basically treated him like a space alien and were mean to him. Like when just about everyone was making him shut up or rolling their eyes at him. It was very annoying. Things are better now at least.

[normasm]

I think Reid's relationship with JJ, from that awkward football game date (which I have no need to know more about, they obviously decided it wouldn't go anywhere) has been platonic. He really wanted her to like him that way, but from the time she made him wear that stupid hat, and Morgan teased him about being fed a piece of cake by "Mommy", I knew that he would chalk it up to another unrequited crush, which he totally expects from the females he's attracted to, and has since Alexa Lisbon scammed him in high school. 

I think Reid's relationship with Elle was more of a surprise (to both of them), because, as others have talked about here, she treated him as a man - a very young man, but a man deserving to be treated as such. In Derailed, at the end, he seemed so pleased and almost giddy that she was thanking him obliquely for saving her bacon, and they even got some "normal" jokes going about Gideon being called Mom. And by the time he came to her hotel room trying to talk her down and soothe her anxiety, I felt he truly loved her, in a very deep and manly way, not necessarily sexual, but he loved her as Elle.

Edited April 13, 2014 by normasm

[mstaken]

Agreed, normasmom! One of my main regrets about Elle departing so early in the series is not getting to see how her relationship with Reid might have developed. And, like you, I definitely don't necessarily mean that in a romantic way. (Though if you told me that Reid was going to have a relationship with one of the female team members, I always saw more connection and I-get-you chemistry with Elle than I did with JJ, who IMO has always treated him with dismissive, snotty condescension more often than not, and even more than I did with Emily.) Elle, while often somewhat rude and cold with others, had this way of joking with Reid in a way that felt totally relaxed and affectionate to me rather than patronizing (ahem, Morgan) or snotty and too-cool-for-the-room (JJ, I'm looking at you). When Elle and Reid bantered, it felt more like Reid was in on the joke. And while not exactly the most sensitive of the team members overall, Elle always seemed really attuned to Reid's feelings about things. They seemed to just truly, instinctively 'get' each other, as trite as that sounds, and I don't always feel that way about many of the team members. As many of us have said, on paper they look like two of the team members who would have bonded the least, but in reality it was one of the series' most natural, believable and likable connections for me.   

[normasm]

 Haha, mstaken, I'm not normasmom, or anyone else's mom! normasm is simply my mother's first name followed by her 2 initials. Love and miss her. And, yes, if I had been a mom, a daughter would have Norma in her name for sure!

When Elle and Reid bantered, it felt more like Reid was in on the joke.

This SO much. And I'm not sure they connected on a sexual level, but definitely Reid loved her, and I think she held him in the highest regard. I always imagined she was bisexual and not interested in long-term relationships of any kind with the team, except friendship. I think if she was attracted to anyone on the team sexually, it would definitely be Hotch. She just felt drawn to Reid, not as much as he was to her, again, my take after seeing those episodes so many times.

Edited April 13, 2014 by normasm

[zannej]

I think part of the Elle and Reid thing was that Lola and Matthew seemed to genuinely get along well. Matthew commented that Lola bought him socks as gifts and he was happy about it. 

Garcia also seemed to care about Reid and even though she said "eww" when Morgan promised her a night of passionate lovemaking-- with Reid, she still treated him like a person and not a space alien. I really hated what they did with them in season 5 where they made them have a sort of childish rivalry and all of a sudden Garcia was claiming to be a genius (I think by season 6?).

I think that maybe Elle just realized that Reid was a kid who got kicked around a lot by bullies and that he was a nice guy and she appreciated his contributions. Sure she thought he was strange, but she recognized that he actually had feelings that could be hurt. In the earlier seasons Reid was more "in" on jokes and more observant. Then they had him start to be more oblivious to things. Even Emily was written as rude to him in season 5 and onward for awhile. She went from laughing at his Halloween antics to rolling her eyes and not wanting to hear it.

The way they all shut Reid down made me wish that just once he would let them know when they are talking about something that doesn't interest him. I got the impression that he's patient and listens (although apparently Matthew will do a thing with Shemar where he leans in like he's interested and asks him to tell him more and then just walks away).

I really loved how, in Derailed, Reid not only joked with Elle about Gideon, but at the end he patted her on the knee before walking away. There was a closeness and comfort level there that we just don't see with any other team members. When Elle left, the only people who seemed to be sad about it were Reid and Hotch.

Speaking of Hotch, I loved how he handled things in Fisher King when he had to go get Elle out of interrogation. Elle immediately perked up when she saw him because she knew that he was not going to put up with crap. Plus he put his jacket around her shoulders. It was physically and symbolically expressing that he was there to protect her. I really liked that Hotch was shown as a gentleman like that. The fact that he went over and washed the blood off of her walls so she wouldn't come home to that was another sign of his caring for team members. He knew what sort of impact it would have if she had to wash the blood off herself and he wanted to ease her pain as much as possible. I think nowadays if the writers were to do a scene like that, it would have been the team over there washing the blood and making jokes with one another.

[mstaken]

I really loved how, in Derailed, Reid not only joked with Elle about Gideon, but at the end he patted her on the knee before walking away. There was a closeness and comfort level there that we just don't see with any other team members.

One of my very favorite parts of one of my very favorite episodes! And, yes, I agree there was a natural, oddly touching rapport there that's been kind of lacking since.

Since many of us love(d) the Reid/Hootch dynamic, which Reid/Hotch scenes jump out at you guys as among your favorites? What sort of scenes/storlines would you love them to have in upcoming seasons?

And as I'm about to start rewatching various favorite episodes for the zillionth or so time...what are your favorite Emily/Reid scenes? I love Emily (or at least the actress; Emily's characterization was somewhat all over the map, IMO!) and you know my adoration for Reid knows no bounds, but for some reason I don't usually see the special closeness between them that many others do. I mean, yes, they like each other, and on paper they actually have a fair amount in common (I still think of Emily as somewhat 'adorkable' and probably the most purely intellectual member of the team other than Reid), and I also see them both as an interesting mix of extreme competence and a dash of personal insecurity. (Post-S2, Emily's blunt, slight social awkwardness seemed to disappear, but it's still there in my fanwank-y mind!) Anyway, I'd love to hear what people love about their relationship and which scenes to keep a special eye out for :) 

[ForeverAlone]

Favorite Reid/Hotch scenes:

1)  All of Reid/Hotch scenes in "LDSK." 2) Hotch talking to Reid about his nightmares in "The Popular Kids" 3) Reid asking if anyone will pretend they will see him again, and Hotch answers "See you when you get back" in "Derailed." 4) Reid and Hotch hugging in "Revelations." "I knew you would understand" is right. 5) All of Reid and Hotch's scenes in "Damaged." 6) Hotch talking to Reid on the plane at the end of "Elephant's Memory." 7) Hotch manhandling Reid into the hall in "Zugzwang." 8) Hotch and Reid questioning the victim's brother in "Extreme Aggressor." 

I like Reid's scenes with older women. He seems to bond with them more. Maybe that is partly because of his relationship with mother, or just his personality. I liked the Reid/Elle dynamic, the Reid/Emily dynamic and the Reid/Alex dynamic. All three are older, more experienced women who take him seriously, value his input to the team, and are more intellectually compatible with him.

Favorite Reid/Emily scenes:

1) All of Reid/Emily scenes in "Minimal Loss." 2) Reid asking Emily to go see "Solaris" with him in "Sense Memory." 3) Reid confiding in Emily about his headaches ("Valhalla"?) 4) Reid and Emily visiting the madam in "Pleasure is My Business." 5) All of Reid and Emily's scenes in "True Genius." 6) Reid and Emily questioning the stripper in "Middle Man." 7) Reid and Emily talking about why Gideon left in "Scared to Death." 8) Emily asking Reid if he considered having baby geniuses in "Catching Out." 9) It was a group scene, but Reid and Emily talking about their near death experiences in "Epilogue." 

Edited April 17, 2014 by ForeverAlone

[mstaken]

I was just rambling about Rossi in his thread and realized this belongs here:

I wish all the intra-team relationships were more distinct as opposed to 'they're all awesomely skilled in pretty much the exact same way and all get along awesomely well!' I'd especially like to see more of Rossi with Reid, as I always like the actors' chemistry...and maybe the Gideon/Reid relationship just predisposed me to enjoy the way Reid, with his understandable daddy issues, relates to men of the generation above his own. I do think Rossi/JM has a way of bringing out the most likable and/or amusing sides of other characters, but, weirdly enough, I never really loved his relationship with Hotch. I get that I'm supposed to think they're close, but I just don't see a natural connection between them, and the scenes when they try to comfort each other---like the one in Omnivore, for example---often feel weirdly forced to me.

8) Emily asking Reid if he considered having baby geniuses in "Catching Out." 9) It was a group scene, but Reid and Emily talking about their near death experiences in "Epilogue."

I love both of these as well! I love all the ones you mentioned, in fact, though I especially appreciate you giving me a reason to rewatch Catching Out (one of the very few episodes of my beloved S4 that I sometimes skip over) and Epilogue (one of the very many post-S4 episodes I've seen just once or twice!) 

[Wilowy]

 

I never really loved his relationship with Hotch. I get that I'm supposed to think they're close, but I just don't see a natural connection between them, and the scenes when they try to comfort each other---like the one in Omnivore, for example---often feel weirdly forced to me.

Right? I like that they try to go there, but I feel Joe just overacts when he tries to convey earnestness. I much prefer Rossi off the cuff, like "Happy Wednesday, my nerds." "I'm Italian, it knows better." "I see you people way too much." "What's the point here, Erin?" "Say hello to your scumbag brother!"

And does anyone else feel weird when he calls Reid "Spencer"? I mean, I know that's his name, but coming from Rossi sounds off to me. 

And the one time he really pissed me off was when he sent Reid into the ditch just to protect his damned boots. If they were that precious he shouldn't have been wearing them in the field. Matthew could've gotten really hurt if he'd fallen.

[mstaken]

Right? I like that they try to go there, but I feel Joe just overacts when he tries to convey earnestness. I much prefer Rossi off the cuff, like "Happy Wednesday, my nerds." "I'm Italian, it knows better." "I see you people way too much." "What's the point here, Erin?" "Say hello to your scumbag brother!"

Oh my gosh, yes, you totally nailed it. He can do subtle, natural warmth quite well, like with just a quick "I get it"  expression or an understanding nod, but when the script gives him dialogue that calls for him to be Very Sensitive, Caring and Earnest, it somehow just doesn't work for me. I agree that he's in his element when he's snarky and even allowed to show his passionate temper a bit. And I feel like he's best with Hotch when he teases him and cheers him up a bit or, in the context of the case, offers an alternative point of view based on his experience----not when he tries to be all empathetic and emotionally 'relate' to him. 

Edited April 17, 2014 by mstaken

[normasm]

Since many of us love(d) the Reid/Hootch dynamic, which Reid/Hotch scenes jump out at you guys as among your favorites? What sort of scenes/storlines would you love them to have in upcoming seasons?

And as I'm about to start rewatching various favorite episodes for the zillionth or so time...what are your favorite Emily/Reid scenes? 

I have a particular eye for the moment Hotch realizes Reid should stay in the home lab in Amplification, knowing he's already probably dead meat, and he (Hotch) sent him in there (well, sort of). The light goes out behind his eyes, the tension in his shoulders gives way a bit to sagging as he assesses both Morgan's and the General's takes and decides Reid's best chance is inside working the case.

And when Reid chews Prentiss a new one when she asks "what is wrong with you?" and he comes back with she's only known him a few seconds and she doesn't know what she's talking about, this is awesome acting on both their parts. When he rounds on her, her eyebrows seem to leave her face, she's so surprised. And MGG did such a good job of acting pain/guilt/shame coming out through accusation, that he deserved an Emmy just for that scene, IMO. Oh, and his voice took off to wherever Paget's eyebrows went to...

[Wilowy]

I love the scene between Em and Reid in True Genius where she tries and fails to reverse psychology him and he's having none of it. 

Her pesty grabbing of his paper, her embarrassment at missing his birthday (which she quickly covers), and her 'happy for him but I knew it all along' face when he deciphers the code are all great moments. 

I love how he tosses her sarcasm right back at her when she says

"Oh, I get it. You're a genius but you have the same job as me, Morgan... JJ..."

Reid: "Yeah, that's exactly it..."

I just want to climb his pea-coated torso and tell him he's MAGNIFICENT and nobody gives two shits about nanovech or whatever guy.

[SSAHotchner]

The scene with the ladies and "Brad, the real FBI agent" is one of my favorite CM moments!

I love your take on Reid's relationship with Gideon. I found Gideon to be a prima donna and I'm really irritated by the many comments Mandy has made about CM and his departure from it. But one of the things I really loved about him was his respect for and treatment of Reid. Also, Hotch had a more nurturing relationship with Reid in the early seasons. Besides LDSK, which someone mentioned, there were scenes in Revelations where Hotch admits that they could use Reid's brain to solve the case, and the scene where Hotch figures out Reid was sending him a clue by quoting Scripture wrong and alluding to a previous conversation he'd had with Reid. In Extreme Aggressor, Hotch admits that Reid is their expert on everything and answers Reid's question about why Gideon always refers to him as Doctor Reid. As the seasons progressed, I became tired of the eye rolling everyone, especially JJ, seemed to employ whenever Reid spoke.

I really liked Elle early on. The only time I didn't like her is in her last two episodes when they changed her character so much. I think she had a really nice dynamic with Reid and Morgan. And until the very end she seemed eager to learn from the more experienced agents, particularly Gideon and even Max Ryan in Unfinished  Business. I'm not sure what happened that made everyone decide to get rid of the character. That said, I do prefer Prentiss to Elle. I think she combines strength and vulnerability better than Elle, and better than any of the other female characters for that matter.

[Wilowy]

Interesting that you feel they changed Elle's character. Ever since she had been shot I saw her getting more and more shaky and bitter. I attributed it to her PTSD, and her feeling that her team had abandoned her. I thought her actions were completely logical considering what she had experienced, and I was impressed that the show went there. It's just a shame that they had to write her off. 

There are many versions of what happened with Lola leaving. I would love to hear it from her, straight up.

[zannej]

I liked when Rossi said "do you need a hug or something?" to the cop who was giving them attitude in one of the episodes.

I initially didn't like Rossi because he came off as more arrogant and not a team player. He was a bit cold to some of the people. He seemed sort of disturbed by Reid's excitement at meeting him. Reid was fangirling on him and then the whole suggestion of a road trip with an audio book playing... LOL. But he eventually warmed to the people and learned to trust them.

I still loved the moment where Strauss is telling Hotch that Rossi is returning and Rossi gives Hotch a big hug and then the two of them look at Strauss and both of them are nonverbally telling her to leave. LOL.

For Hotch/Reid moments, I liked the one in an episode were Gideon's predecessor Max (can't remember last name) was back. Reid and Hotch were walking through a crime scene and Reid asked Hotch about what he thought of Max and what it was like working with him. Hotch didn't want to talk trash about him, but it was clear that he had not enjoyed working with him. Then Reid gave the line about repetitive thinking was a death knell for the brain. I need to watch it again to get the exact lines. I might be misremembering, but I think Hotch implied that Reid already knew everything that Max would have been able to teach him. There was just a subtle way of Hotch indicating that precocious Reid was already a better profiler (in Hotch's opinion) than Max. And Reid was so focused on the case that he totally missed it.

I actually disliked the talking about near death experiences in "Epilogue". Reid first saying that he was a man of science and then saying that he had no explanation for what he experienced was total bullshit. Its one of my pet peeves about what happens when some Christians (Rick Dunkle is a born again Christian) try to write for atheist or agnostic characters. The writers just don't understand how thought processes of atheists/agnostics work. The writers seem to think that the latter's lack of faith could be so easily shaken or changed. It reminds me of the trope that all atheists are just "mad at God" rather than just not believing. There have been scientific studies and there are many possibilities on what could have caused Reid to experience what he did. For him to say there was was absolutely no scientific explanation was just completely out of character. (Mind you, I've seen facepalm inducing moments from when someone of one particular religion tries to write for someone of another religion and they just don't get it so it winds up being insulting-- and its not just Christian writers).

I know that we were talking about favorites, but my very least favorite Emily/Reid moment was when Emily said "There's a lot to hate about you, Dr. Reid". That whole episode was just off and I felt like the writer did not "get" the characters. The unsub / unschmuck scenes were actually better than the team moments. Normally I find it the other way around.

I can't remember if it was in this thread or not, but someone talked about how Hotch should have been the one to talk to Morgan. In some ways I agree because he has the knowledge, however; Hotch has always maintained at least somewhat of a professional distance. Unless it is affecting their work, Hotch does not interfere or get in to their personal matters. He does let them know that he's available if anyone wants to talk to him. If Hotch said anything to Morgan it would have been in a "This is none of my business, but here's my advice-- take it or leave it". He wouldn't have done the "you'll end up alone" bit though. Hell, I think that Blake would have been a better choice than JJ at giving the advice because she's been married longer and she totally understands the dynamic where both spouses work long hours and spend a lot of time apart.

[normasm]

I actually disliked the talking about near death experiences in "Epilogue". Reid first saying that he was a man of science and then saying that he had no explanation for what he experienced was total bullshit. Its one of my pet peeves about what happens when some Christians (Rick Dunkle is a born again Christian) try to write for atheist or agnostic characters. The writers just don't understand how thought processes of atheists/agnostics work. The writers seem to think that the latter's lack of faith could be so easily shaken or changed. It reminds me of the trope that all atheists are just "mad at God" rather than just not believing. There have been scientific studies and there are many possibilities on what could have caused Reid to experience what he did. For him to say there was was absolutely no scientific explanation was just completely out of character. (Mind you, I've seen facepalm inducing moments from when someone of one particular religion tries to write for someone of another religion and they just don't get it so it winds up being insulting-- and its not just Christian writers).

 

Oh, man, zannej, this is so spot-on! Every time i see that scene I nearly shout "Brain chemistry, Reid? Ever heard of it?!" Sheesh. I love and respect a great many people who call themselves Christian, and some of them actually are scientists, and many of them aren't this rigid in their belief systems (to imply, as the writer did, that God is the explanation for everything and Science kneels down in its presence). I've come to believe the only honest thing is that I don't know anything when it comes to death and the presence or absence of God.

The Reid of canon probably would have said he had a strange experience that broadened his perspective and gave him a new empathy for those who explain near-death phenomena in spiritual terms, even if he knew what was going on scientifically. Sadly, something like this would have been too complex and subtle for the time frame, and wouldn't have furthered the secondary story about Rossi's religious dilemma.

[mstaken]

JJ/Reid seems to be a pretty popular 'ship, and while I'm a huge believer in people 'shipping or not 'shipping whatever floats their boat, I'm genuinely curious as to what people see in them. Personally, I can't imagine someone I'd less like to see Reid with. To me, JJ has nearly always acted cold and self-superior towards him, distant and mocking (in a way that, thanks to the actress, comes off more bitchy than playful) and just generally as if she think she's far too 'cool' for a geek like Reid.  Even in the rare moments where I see something approaching a genuine and balanced friendship between them---like when she asks Reid to be Henry's godfather---it's purely platonic to me. Now that JJ's a mom, married to someone else and allegedly happy with Vaguely Creepy Will, I 'ship Reid and JJ even less---as if such a thing were even possible ;) In short, I want Reid to be with someone who 'gets' him, who respects him, and maybe who's even as psyched as he is to learn and go to things like Comicon rather than belittling the stuff he's into. JJ is, IMO, FAR too cold, boring, flat, arrogant, dismissive and Mean Girl-ish for Reid, at least to me! 

Edited May 15, 2014 by mstaken

[Wilowy]

Mstaken:

 

"When has she held him? Was it on more than one or two occasions? I'm just curious. I do remember her being cold and unsympathetic when finding him the morning after Gideon's departure...definitely no holding then!"

 

You're right about that one, but they really didn't know at that point what had happened with Gideon and she was surprised that Reid had spent the whole night there. 

 

Here's some examples:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And I don't have a bigger one of this at hand, but

 

 

Not that their hugs are always unhappy! :)

 

And we completely disagree on JJ being "Cold, flat, dismissive" like you've always said. I find she lets her guard down with Reid more than anyone, and the warmth she has for him is evident in all of the above pics, and the others I have where they are touching each other. Happens a lot with these two, and I firmly believe that she 'gets' him, in a way most women never would. :) I think they'd be swell together, she could be the toughie, and he could be the brain. 

[mstaken]

Thanks for explaining, Willowy! We totally disagree, but since intra-team coupledom will almost certainly never exist anywheer other than fanfic, we can both be satisfied---you can fanwank them together, and I can fanwank that Reid found a warm, brilliant, interesting woman with an actual personality who shares some of his interests and doesn't roll her eyes at things that make him happy. 

Edited May 15, 2014 by mstaken

[Wilowy]

Ha, right? Well, at least we both want the same thing for him, I just want it to be JJ he finds it with, lol. :) 

 

The way I write her with him is the way I really would love it to be. I realize it will probably never be canon, but YAY for fic! 

 

I think you might even like my JJ. She loves him very much. ;)

 

Nice to see you, btw - I've missed you!

[IndependentMind]

No offense but I always laugh at JJ/Reid ship. There is nothing romantic between them. It is almost incestious if they ever got together. They are like brother and sister.

I see more chemistry in a romantic eay betwen Hotch and JJ.

[Wilowy]

Maybe to you they are like that, @IndependentMind , not to me. I see deep feelings between them. :)

 

And Hotch/JJ is one ship I never saw. I really don't ship Hotch with anyone, to tell the truth. Maybe Katie Cole! 

[IndependentMind]

I think for me, I just don't ever see Reid with anybody romantically. Is that weird?

[missmycat]

Well I was a Reid/Prentiss shipper myself, but only in fanfic. I would have totally been against it becoming canon, as I would any ship. I have not been at all happy with some of the things EM and these writers have done with these character.But the one thing they have done right so far (knock on wood) is not linking any of them together romantically.

Edited May 16, 2014 by missmycat

[mstaken]

Heh---yeah, I can see Reid and Prentiss as a decent match, as they're different enough to complement each other but still seem to have some commonalities, especially when Emily was played as a little more socially awkward and an adorable self-professed nerd and into reading stuff like Vonnegut (which I think Reid would love.) Overall, though, I'm not sure I can see any of the team members in a romantic relationship and, like you, I'm very glad they've never gone there.  I do think Reid had surprisingly good chemistry with Elle, albeit not necessarily of a romantic nature. 

Edited May 16, 2014 by mstaken

[ForeverAlone]

My true ships can only exist on fanfiction and in my fantasies, but I can see the Reid/Emily ship, since Emily is the only woman I have ever shipped Reid with (you know, aside from Maeve). If Reid had to date a woman, I could see Emily, because they seemed to have more complementary personalities, some intersecting interests, and I can easily see her introducing him to the ways of sexual pleasure.

I love Reid and Elle together, but never romantically. She always struck me as the kind big sister who looked out for him and protected him. It is quite nice to watch them and realize how well they work together, because if you just had descriptions of their characters, you would never imagine how great of a pairing they really were. Totally underrated and often forgotten.

[Wilowy]

Count me in for the Reid/Elle love, but not romantically. There was a big part of me that wanted Elle to show up in his hospital room last night. He was out too quick, though. If he'd been in there for a week or so, I wank she would've popped in to check on her kid bro, or at least called him. I really appreciated their dynamic. 

 

I know Emily likes men - witness Doyle, Matthew (Demonolgy, not OUR Matthew), and her flirtation with Cooper - but the whole reason I couldn't see her with Reid (even in fic) is because I always thought she gave off a really strong lesbian vibe. I thought it was awesome, and it worked for her and I do wish they had explored it more. I always really loved how she always even sat in a masculine pose, legs wide, but it didn't detract from her femininity one scoche.