Some People Are Indifferent To Raymond: Your Least Favorite Moments

[BlossomCulp]

I think it's pretty safe to assume Amy is Debra's age, if not a bit younger.  Peter is the elder child and they reference at least a few times that he's a "40 yr old man still living in his parent's basement".  That does mean that the age difference between Amy and Robert has to be at least 8 years (Robert is 4 years older than Ray and in an early episode it is referenced that Ray is 4 years older than Debra) but I guess by the time people are in their 30s/40s that kind of age difference is pretty meaningless.

[ByTor]

Robert certainly didn't care about ages when he dated 22 (OOPS 19!!!) year-old Erica :)

[LADreamr]

Well, we know Amy was 33 when it was revealed that she was still a virgin, but I can't remember how long before their marriage that was. 

[CherryAmes]

Amy is the 33 yr old virgin in the Good Girls episode from season 2. Robert was 43 in the episode Bytor referenced which took place in season 5 so, doing the math (not my best subject, shades of Allie's F :) ), that means Robert is 7 years older than Amy, which means if he's 8 years older than Debra that Amy is a year older than Debra.  Which surprises me.  Not that I think the writers actually really worked this all out but for some reason I always thought of Amy as being the youngest of the 4 middle Barones.

Edited January 31, 2017 by CherryAmes

[ByTor]

Yes, @CherryAmes, you really did give that more thought than the writers!  Good work :)

[Guest]

PT&A was on my DVR last night, and while it has it's funny moments, Robert and Frank's creepiness is so over the top. I cringe watching it.

[ByTor]

2 hours ago, deaja said:

PT&A was on my DVR last night, and while it has it's funny moments, Robert and Frank's creepiness is so over the top. I cringe watching it.

So do I. I especially hate the part when Robert, Frank, and Marie were leaving Debra's house after Debra threatened to take her top off & Frank poked his head in to take one last look.  I always called those the "Patricia Heaton got more plastic surgery so we all have to say how hot she is" episodes.  The one where she worked at Frank's lodge is another...although Frank himself wasn't creepy in that one.

[qtpye]

On 2/1/2017 at 3:26 PM, ByTor said:

So do I. I especially hate the part when Robert, Frank, and Marie were leaving Debra's house after Debra threatened to take her top off & Frank poked his head in to take one last look.  I always called those the "Patricia Heaton got more plastic surgery so we all have to say how hot she is" episodes.  The one where she worked at Frank's lodge is another...although Frank himself wasn't creepy in that one.

I also hate when she dressed provocatively for a PTA meeting....Frank and Robert were practically drooling.  The whole episode was so stupid and yes, it felt like the producers just wanted to show off how hot Debra was now after the plastic surgeries.

I have to say PH must have the best plastic surgeon in town, as she looked pretty natural.  If she had not admitted, some people might have believed she just dieted and exercised.

[CherryAmes]

That PTA episode was one of the few ELR episodes that seemed completely made up and fake.  Most of the other episodes were, or at least seemed to be, based on scenarios that could happen.  Funnier than real life, of course, but basically real.  No one would do what Debra did in that PTA episode, dress like "Streetwalker Barbie" in front of a bunch of people they know from their child's school, even if they had had their feelings hurt.  I don't buy that for one single second.  It's on my list of 'can't watch' episodes.

[ByTor]

I have very few "can't watch" episodes, but PT&A is one of them.

[CherryAmes]

I've got a little list :).  I won't watch:

1. Debra's Birthday Party
2. PTA
3. Thank you notes
4. The Hall of Fame one
5. The season ender where Marie tries to prevent Ray and Debra from having sex (come to think of it this is another episode that just rings completely false to me - Marie was a meddler but she wasn't that bad especially in what should have been the early years).

Edited February 14, 2017 by CherryAmes

[ByTor]

I was thinking one that I disliked was T-Ball.  Debra annoyed me with her "I'm busy as hell comment;" I mean, she was too busy to put carrots and granola bars in her cart rather than pretzels?  But then for no reason at all, something hit me & now I'm totally on Debra's side here.  I think I interpreted the scene wrong.  She wasn't too busy to put different food in her cart, she was too busy to worry about an approved snack list made up by the neurotic, control freak coach Brian...hell she probably didn't realize (or forgot, it certainly happens when you're frazzled) that the list even existed.  

I think, though, the whole incident would have been better, and would have more clearly gotten Debra sympathy, if before the game she would have said something like "Oh crap, I forgot to buy the damn snack!" and had to grab something unopened she had in the house. I could see someone who's busy being more likely to forget about the snack thing altogether rather than forgetting about what is/isn't approved.  I mean, I'm sure we've all gone to the store to get milk and then come home $50 later with no milk! :)

Edited February 15, 2017 by ByTor

[Inquisitionist]

Quote

neurotic, control freak coach Brian

Dan Castellaneta was perfect in that role -- soooooo annoying!  As I recall, what cheesed Debra off more than anything was Brian's insistence that she had to bring snacks again the next time, because her pretzels and whatever didn't count.  That was nonsense, and I'm glad she stood her ground, even if Raymond couldn't.  

[CherryAmes]

I've always been Team Debra (well in most episodes) but never more so than now that I am babysitting my two grandchildren a few days a week.  They're 4 and 1/2 and 18 months so roughly the same ages Allie and the twins were when the show started.  I only have to cope with two and I am exhausted by the end of the day.   And I don't have meddling in-laws barging in every 5 minutes!!  If some fool tried to boss me around about an approved snack I hate to say how I think I'd react.

Edited February 16, 2017 by CherryAmes

[ByTor]

On 2/15/2017 at 4:06 PM, Inquisitionist said:

Dan Castellaneta was perfect in that role -- soooooo annoying! 

I liked him in the basketball one, especially when Raymond kept interrupting him, and Brian would calmly say "Still talking..."

[ShadowSixx]

Yea that approved snack episode that guy was an ass. Why during snack time should kids fill up on that many snacks? Hell give them a cup of punch and animal cookies and send them on their way. All those snacks on that ridiculous list could cause the kids to vomit since they had to go back on the field. I would have flipped out like Ray. What the hell is wrong with bringing pretzels as a snack?

[ByTor]

I'm also guessing that when kids are playing and having fun, most wouldn't want to stop so they can have a snack.

[Guest]

I am currently watching Lateness and remembering how I hate this episode. It was Debra's idea to do the AIS bet. She was ready in time, but decided to keep fooling around with her hair instead of leaving it. Then she gets mad at Ray for doing exactly what they'd agreed on. Then at the end, she continues being petty. 

Basically, she showed no regards for Ray or his feelings and then proclaimed herself the victim.

[BlossomCulp]

I see that episode somewhat differently.  Ray was a big sulking baby sitting in the car whining "she doesn't care about me" instead of sitting in the living room chatting with Amy and Robert or playing with his own kids.  If he'd stayed in the house he would have known what had happened.  Of course we'd have had no episode :).  I also really dislike that suddenly Debra not being ready when they have places to go is a big issue.  Far cry from the episode where they are all getting ready for Robert and Amy's wedding and Debra gets herself and three kids ready to go and still has to dress Ray who's standing around helpless in his boxers with no idea how to put on his own clothes!  

[Guest]

He didn't go out to the car until 6:26.  The agreement was the car would leave at 6:30 (Debra's idea).  If my spouse had a big event and I knew how important it was to him that I be on time, I would be trying to be ready at least a few minutes early, not still curling my hair with less than 5 minutes before I was supposed to be in the car.  

I do think it was out of character with what we had seen previously, like with Amy's wedding. Though maybe that was part of his issue- she's capable of getting herself and the kids ready on time when it is something important to her, but not when it is important to him.

[CherryAmes]

I agree it was a bit contrived but I love Ray's dawning horror, his slow realization that "I'm a dead man, Bernie".  He knows his Debra and yet he still drove off and left her???  He was so smug about it when he was telling the guys, so sure he was right and then, that moment when it all came together and he knew he was in big trouble.  It was also one of the few times when Marie didn't take his side.  I always like those :).

[ShadowSixx]

I did get a good laugh when Debra came down the stairs with the hair roller and Ray said he liked her earring. It's just too hard to feel sorry for Debra because she agreed to be on time. It does seem Debra is late when it comes to something that Ray wants to do, like them going to the movies early in the episode so he can sit in an aisle seat so he can easily get up and go to the bathroom. 

The Visit episode Lois was just horrible. Why did she even bother to visit Ray, Debra, & the kids if she barely wanted to do anything with them. Debra was listing things that they could do together and Lois just didn't want to, even at the park with the kids she just did a crossword puzzle. It wasn't like she had a hectic life back at home with Warren since they traveled a lot. Even during dinner she couldn't even help one of the twins whose drink was about to fall off the table.

The Sneeze is a horrible episode. I sided with Debra on that one especially during the ending. Debra is trying to take care of Ray and Ray is acting like a dick his friends come over with pizza and basketball, Frank comes over to watch t.v. and then Marie comes over thinking that Debra is feeding Ray pizza and not taking care of him. I did like when Debra went off on Marie but I hated the ending of Ray having strep throat and Debra having to go and get ice cream. That wasn't a good ending to the episode.

[qtpye]

On 3/15/2017 at 1:29 AM, ShadowSixx said:

The Visit episode Lois was just horrible. Why did she even bother to visit Ray, Debra, & the kids if she barely wanted to do anything with them. Debra was listing things that they could do together and Lois just didn't want to, even at the park with the kids she just did a crossword puzzle. It wasn't like she had a hectic life back at home with Warren since they traveled a lot. Even during dinner she couldn't even help one of the twins whose drink was about to fall off the table.

This episode bugs, because it was like they were trying to contrast mothering styles of upper class Catholics and more blue collar southern Italian Catholics.  It also seemed a little out of character for Lois to be so stand offish, when she has been shown to be loving toward her grand children before hand.

However, it also annoyed me because not all women's lives revolve around the family.  I have a good relationship with my mother, but she lives far away.  She never came to live with me to help with the babies, even when they are newborns and she had more then enough time and money to do so.  My mother is a very vital and active woman.  She loves her grand kids, but she is done raising children and my children are my responsibility.

I do think Lois would have helped when the kids were eating (and caught that kid's juice), they just made her like this for this one episode, because it served the plot to contrast her to Marie.

[CherryAmes]

It also bugged me that Lois was supposed to want to go look at material with Debra.  Really writers?  The Debra who you go out of your way to show as being a lousy housekeeper is suddenly making her own curtains?  I realize this episode aired before they transitioned a perfectly competent Debra into the Debra the grown woman who can't even frost a cake but for Pete's sake why would anyone's mother want to come all the way to visit and the big outing is shopping for material?  When my mother would come visit us we took her in to London as a day out!  Debra was right to want her mother to be more involved but I agree Qtpye I hated the way women were supposed to only have interests that involved cooking, housework and kids!  

[Guest]

In Working Girl, I've previously spent most of my time being annoyed by Debra with some annoyance for Marie acting like Debra working was THE WORST THING for the children.  But watching it recently, I'm so annoyed with Ray. Not even for the meddling part where he tried to get her job back - I really do think he was misguided, but sweet, there. But making fun of her ideas that she had already been fired for? Inexcusable!

[qtpye]

19 hours ago, deaja said:

In Working Girl, I've previously spent most of my time being annoyed by Debra with some annoyance for Marie acting like Debra working was THE WORST THING for the children.  But watching it recently, I'm so annoyed with Ray. Not even for the meddling part where he tried to get her job back - I really do think he was misguided, but sweet, there. But making fun of her ideas that she had already been fired for? Inexcusable!

I was annoyed with Ray, for letting the house get so disgusting and putting that dirty pan in the oven.   Seriously, dude, you can not do one minute of house cleaning yourself?

[CherryAmes]

47 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I was annoyed with Ray, for letting the house get so disgusting and putting that dirty pan in the oven.   Seriously, dude, you can not do one minute of house cleaning yourself?

What I couldn't understand was why was Ray home with the kids?  They never explained that.  If someone else was babysitting while both Ray and Debra were at work it never got referenced and seriously if Ray did all that damage in the hour or so that might have elapsed between him getting home and Debra arriving then I don't want to hear one word from anyone ever again about how Debra has a martyr complex!!!!!!  Ray's lucky she doesn't put a pillow over his face in his sleep some night!

[ByTor]

20 hours ago, deaja said:

the meddling part where he tried to get her job back

Which produced one of my favorite exchanges:  Ray:"I skipped lunch." Debra: "How could you do that???"  Ray: "I ate a big breakfast."

2 minutes ago, CherryAmes said:

What I couldn't understand was why was Ray home with the kids?

I told myself that he was working from home that day.  I assume he wasn't doing that on a regular basis, though; otherwise Marie wouldn't have had her snotty "latchkey children" comment.

[qtpye]

1 minute ago, ByTor said:

I told myself that he was working from home that day.  I assume he wasn't doing that on a regular basis, though; otherwise Marie wouldn't have had her snotty "latchkey children" comment.

As a former latchkey kid, that comment really rubbed me the wrong way.  Then I realize Marie does not want confident and independent children or grand children.  She wants helpless little adult babies that will be dependent on her all the times, so she will never be alone.

[ByTor]

2 minutes ago, qtpye said:

As a former latchkey kid, that comment really rubbed me the wrong way.  Then I realize Marie does not want confident and independent children or grand children.  She wants helpless little adult babies that will be dependent on her all the times, so she will never be alone.

Honestly, I always assumed since Marie was an old-fashioned "the woman stays at home" type that she did mean that comment as an insult with no deeper meaning.  Perhaps it should continue to rub you the wrong way :)

[CherryAmes]

Well the whole latchkey comment was just dumb.  Those kids were way to young to be left home alone or to be expected to come home to an empty house after school.  If she was that worried about them she could have offered to babysit while Debra worked.  Following up on my earlier comment clearly they didn't even think this through as Debra started work without any plan in place for childcare.

[ByTor]

1 hour ago, CherryAmes said:

 If she was that worried about them she could have offered to babysit while Debra worked.

Knowing what a control freak Marie always was, you'd think she'd prefer it this way!

[Guest]

Didn't she say when she was talking about going back to work that it was time because the twins were in school full-time?  Even so, she should have needed more time for the to work through pick-ups and drop-offs, those after school but during working time hours.  That is the one thing I give Ray a slight pass on - it seemed very impulsive.  Most couples I know would take time to look at how it works for their family to make a significant change like that, not just "I want to do work and I can read on my commute!"  Even if Ray were able to be home in the afternoon by working from home part of the time, they would need to make arrangements when he traveled.

[CherryAmes]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

 

Didn't she say when she was talking about going back to work that it was time because the twins were in school full-time?

 

Which doesn't make sense since the twins were only about 4 in this episode.  It's like an episode I saw the other day, the one where Ray has the anxiety episode (I love the doctor in this one!).  The twins could not have been older than 3, at the most, and yet we see Debra whirling around the kitchen busily getting things done before she has to leave to pick the kids up at school at 3.  Nuts to that!  Even if the twins were in nursery school they weren't going full days, 5 days a week.

Edited March 31, 2017 by CherryAmes

[BlossomCulp]

23 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

Even if the twins were in nursery school they weren't going full days, 5 days a week.

Heh, those kids were never around!  And when they were they played quietly in a playpen, as toddlers, or quietly in the living room or their bedrooms when they were older.  Well except for the very few times when for reasons of the plot the kids needed to act up.  I particularly loved the way they could put the twins into that playpen and they just sat there!  No way would my kids have done that.  If they hadn't been squawking to get out of the playpen they'd have been piling up their toys and planning their escape route!

[CherryAmes]

On 3/30/2017 at 2:58 PM, deaja said:

But watching it recently, I'm so annoyed with Ray. Not even for the meddling part where he tried to get her job back - I really do think he was misguided, but sweet, there. But making fun of her ideas that she had already been fired for? Inexcusable!

I always think this in the episode where Ray walks in on Debra and discovers her bleaching her upper lip area.  Not only does he keep making funny (well they were funny but not to her!) comments about her mustache but he even goes across the street and tells his parents and Robert about it.  Now granted Debra never found that out, but still!  That was a personal thing and it was obviously something most women don't broadcast around and yet there was Ray teasing her and then telling other people.  When you think about it that was just mean.

Edited April 4, 2017 by CherryAmes

[ShadowSixx]

On 3/30/2017 at 1:58 PM, deaja said:

In Working Girl, I've previously spent most of my time being annoyed by Debra with some annoyance for Marie acting like Debra working was THE WORST THING for the children.  But watching it recently, I'm so annoyed with Ray. Not even for the meddling part where he tried to get her job back - I really do think he was misguided, but sweet, there. But making fun of her ideas that she had already been fired for? Inexcusable!

Well the idea did suck. Prof. Pete Za, I mean come on Debra. Even when Charlotte told her that that idea isn't what the client is looking for Debra argued with her. If Debra can't take constructive criticism, she can't work. Ray came up with an alternative with the logo having "meatballs" lol. I probably would have teased my spouse as well.

I didn't understand why Debra got upset with Ray for getting her her job back. I would have been appreciative for my husband doing that for me plus buying me a gift to go back to work. I think Ray was actually good in this episode. He didn't like that Debra was going to work but he didn't sabotage her, he stayed home and at least tried to take care of the kids and didn't complain.

[CherryAmes]

10 hours ago, ShadowSixx said:

I probably would have teased my spouse as well.

Eventually, but on the day after your spouse got fired?  Over something they had not told you about - that you found out about because you went to see their boss?  I'd like to think that outside a sitcom most people would be sensitive enough to wait awhile before the teasing began!

10 hours ago, ShadowSixx said:

I didn't understand why Debra got upset with Ray for getting her her job back. I would have been appreciative for my husband doing that for me plus buying me a gift to go back to work.

I think it was sweet of him to try and get her job back but it would have been out of line for a parent to do that for a child and it's just as out of line for a husband to do that for his wife.  I'd have been as embarrassed as hell if I got a job back because (a) my husband interfered and (b) his interference included lying about how many children I have!   and (c) he found out something about why I was fired that I didn't want anyone to know about!

Edited April 5, 2017 by CherryAmes

[Guest]

Like @CherryAmes said, if my spouse had teased me while I was working on it and he saw it, fine.  Maybe not great, but fine.  But when you're upset because you've been fired to find out the info, bring it up, and then continue with "what were you thinking?" Oh no.  Not happening, no sir.  

[ByTor]

On 3/31/2017 at 0:49 PM, deaja said:

Didn't she say when she was talking about going back to work that it was time because the twins were in school full-time?

I haven't seen this episode in a while since Netflix removed Raymond *sniff*, but I think I remember Debra saying the kids were in school 3 days a week, which I assume was why she accepted a part-time position.  Even so, I thought the twins seemed a tad young for that as well.

On 4/1/2017 at 1:25 PM, BlossomCulp said:

Heh, those kids were never around!  And when they were they played quietly in a playpen, as toddlers, or quietly in the living room or their bedrooms when they were older.  Well except for the very few times when for reasons of the plot the kids needed to act up.

I hated, I mean hated, when those kids would, for no reason at all, run through the living room going "AHHHHHHHH!!!" then run to their rooms!  Did I mention I hated that? :)

[qtpye]

On ‎4‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 11:13 AM, ByTor said:

I hated, I mean hated, when those kids would, for no reason at all, run through the living room going "AHHHHHHHH!!!" then run to their rooms!  Did I mention I hated that? :)

Yeah, you could tell the Sweetin kids were not naturally loud or rambunctious.  I am sure their calmness paired with their cuteness is what got them the roles in the first place, so those scenes just did not seem to ring true.

Edited April 6, 2017 by qtpye

[ByTor]

Yeah, I mean they weren't playing, they weren't really doing anything, they were just yelling!  IMO the only time it was appropriate was when the twins were running wild when they were practicing how to be fairies.

[BlossomCulp]

On 4/5/2017 at 1:37 PM, qtpye said:

Yeah, you could tell the Sweetin kids were not naturally loud or rambunctious.  I am sure their calmness paired with their cuteness is what got them the roles in the first place, so those scenes just did not seem to ring true.

Well it sure wasn't their acting ability!  I think that was my biggest problem when they'd focus on the twins, they just could not act.  I guess it didn't really matter because they were mainly background but the few times when they were a significant part of the story you could tell neither of them could act their way out of a paper bag.  That said I did find the twin in the episode where Michael is staying home from school did a reasonable job.   Not great, but reasonable.

[ShadowSixx]

3 hours ago, BlossomCulp said:

Well it sure wasn't their acting ability!  I think that was my biggest problem when they'd focus on the twins, they just could not act.  I guess it didn't really matter because they were mainly background but the few times when they were a significant part of the story you could tell neither of them could act their way out of a paper bag.  That said I did find the twin in the episode where Michael is staying home from school did a reasonable job.   Not great, but reasonable.

"Why was the teacher yelling?" That was the funniest line.

[ShadowSixx]

In the episode The Invasion I didn't like how Marie was acting all put upon when Debra was in the living room quietly reading a book while she was watching her French lesson. Marie was the one who invited them to live with them while their house was being fumigated. I didn't like the ending to that episode either with Marie & Frank still being oblivious to the fact that Ray & Debra don't want them over as much. Still didn't get the hint in the Wallpaper episode either.

[ByTor]

On 4/22/2017 at 10:09 AM, ShadowSixx said:

In the episode The Invasion I didn't like how Marie was acting all put upon when Debra was in the living room quietly reading a book while she was watching her French lesson.

I liked when Marie was complaining to Ray that Debra was reading, and he said "Out loud?"  Because yeah, what was the big deal?  And I liked how Debra just sat there and continued to read...not because she was being a bitch, but because she truly didn't get the hint that Marie didn't want her there.

I love The Invasion, it's one of my most watched episodes.

Edited April 24, 2017 by ByTor

[ShadowSixx]

I didn't like the Break Up Tape episode mostly because of Robert. I mean Ray kept the tape because he wanted to know why his gf broke up with him as she gave no indication as to why they should no longer see each other. When Frank & Marie wanted to hear the tape Ray declined but Robert says he has a copy of the break up. WTF?? Really?? 

What sibling would keep a tape of their sibling being broken up with. IDK why Robert is always delighted in Ray's downfall. Ray hasn't wished any ill will towards Robert or for him to have bad luck. In the episode Move Out Ray encouraged Robert to move out of Frank & Marie's because he didn't like seeing Robert be miserable and in the episode when Robert was deciding whether or not to retire Ray encouraged him to do what he feels is best for Robert and not let anyone else in the family decide for him. 

[CherryAmes]

There was also the episode where Robert's girlfriend eats the fly and Robert goes off an a rant to Ray about how he is a "sniveling, insecure little man" and makes it seem like all Ray has ever done is try and ruin his life.  The only thing wrong Ray did was be born.  I admit there are some episodes where Ray isn't the world's greatest guy but he wasn't jealous of Robert and it drove me crazy when Robert acted like he was.

[BlossomCulp]

20 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

 

There was also the episode where Robert's girlfriend eats the fly and Robert goes off an a rant to Ray about how he is a "sniveling, insecure little man" and makes it seem like all Ray has ever done is try and ruin his life.

 

He actually does say that Ray ruined his life in the episode with the cocktail party for Peter.  With Amy standing right beside him!  How she didn't take a bottle from that bar he was tending and break it over his head I will never know!  

[ShadowSixx]

The Cookies episode when Ray tells them that he doesn't like Peggy, Debra equates that to Ray not liking women in general. That was a big WTF moment. If Ray had a problem with women then he would have also disliked Amy, Pat, Stefania, Judy, & Linda. What other woman did Ray have a problem with besides Peggy?