Zelena: DOES Wicked Always Win?

[KingOfHearts]

They need to work Zelena into the plot by giving her actual relationships with the characters, other than Regina. But, even then, the Regina/Zelena sister bonding got swept under the rug. It was really weird to see her happily helping the heroes in the past few episodes. At first she didn't want anything to do with anybody, then Regina gave her the hypocrite speech, and now all of a sudden she's the magic guru. After 5B, I could believe. But after 6A? It's jarring.

A good example of utilizing Zelena was in 5x08, where she was imprisoned with Hook. Her presence made sense and she contributed to the plot without pulling it into a tangent. She got to interact with someone not related to the Mills family or Oz. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

It's crazy how fast they dropped the Zelena/Regina stuff in Season 6. 5B made it seem like that was going to be the writers' new obsession, and then they gave them 2 minutes of roommate drama in Season 6 and dropped it altogether. I was looking forward to seeing Regina and Zelena room together, but I guess we had to settle for the other half of Regina occasionally popping up in Zelena's farmhouse instead. I'm actually impressed how much Zelena is always seen taking care of her baby compared to Snow and Charming who are rarely ever seen with their baby.

[TheGreenKnight]

I had been looking forward to Zelena and Regina’s relationship being more sisterly coming into this season, too, but seeing as 1.) we got almost the complete opposite and 2.) Zelena practically vanished altogether, I wish now that she and Hades had departed at the end of 5B to rule the Underworld instead of Hades dying. And here I thought the REC would keep something like this from happening to Zelena (because she's connected to Regina).

[Camera One]

I'm actually impressed how much Zelena is always seen taking care of her baby compared to Snow and Charming who are rarely ever seen with their baby

Making sure an ex-villain spends time with a child to show how devoted they are?  That's right up their alley.  That's a huge part of their narrative for why Zelena is on the heroes' side now. 

[KingOfHearts]

Regina and the heroes have given Zelena zero incentive to turn to the side of good. Regina had to be bribed with Henry, hero status, and unconditional friendship. It's amazing to me that Zelena has shown remorse and a willingness to help without any sort of reward in return. That's why I love her character and find her to be so much more superior to Regina. She has the redemption arc her sister should have had.

[KAOS Agent]

I think that Zelena wants what's best for Pistachio. The Evil Queen tried to convince her that she should raise her child to be wicked, but I don't think that Zelena was particularly happy and was very lonely when she was wicked. She doesn't want that for her daughter. Also, if something should happen to Zelena - these people get sucked into portals with startling regularity - there would be people who'd be willing to raise her daughter with love and care. On this show, babies "fix" you and your evil ways. 

[KingOfHearts]

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On this show, babies "fix" you and your evil ways. 

I don't like the idea that children can be used to "fix" people. However, at least with Zelena, she hasn't abused her child (like Regina) or neglected it (like Snowing). At least we see her parenting and taking care of it on a regular basis. (Snowflake sitting in a crib or stroller doesn't count.) I also liked her defending it from Fake!Robin. Yes, her feelings are partially selfish, but they're understandable. Regina had an army of cheerleaders loving her on, and Zelena has had nobody. 

[Camera One]

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I don't like the idea that children can be used to "fix" people.

I was just listening to the radio today and they were interviewing an ex-hate group member.  He works in rehabilitation of people who were part of hate groups/crimes and he said the most common reason people were rehabilitating was because they had a child.  He also said one of the things that helps the most in rehabilitation is getting kindness and forgiveness from the people they de-humanized.  For a moment, I thought it was A&E giving the interview, LOL.

Edited April 22, 2017 by Camera One

[Inquirer]

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"Zelena’s always been on this struggle of being incredibly pained by abandonment, and having a mean dad, and all that stuff. There’s just so many defenses up. It really looks at why she’s alone, and that loneliness, because really now she isn’t alone anymore. She’s got a kid, and she’s got her sister back, and with the sister comes all of these people. So it’s sort of coming full circle, like being this really lonely abandoned kid to maybe sort of realizing that she isn’t alone, and she doesn’t have to do everything on her own."

From a Rebecca Mader interview.  Why again has the show never drawn any connection between Zelena and Emma?

[Camera One]

That description of WALLS certainly sounds very Emma.  Though the constant whining and blaming Zelena did in 3B and much of Season 4-5 is the antithesis of how Emma has responded to her obstacles.

[TheGreenKnight]

2 hours ago, Inquirer said:

From a Rebecca Mader interview.  Why again has the show never drawn any connection between Zelena and Emma?

I thought they did during "Our Decay"? They had her looking at a birthday cupcake just like Emma in the pilot. I remember Emma fans whining about it at the time anyway.

[Inquirer]

That was a parallel, which they throw at many characters whether they make sense or not (see Regina in "Souls of the Departed").

I meant drawing a connection as in characters, like Emma and/or Zelena themselves, noting the similarities.

The only time I think this happened was Dark Swan saying she knew how it felt to give birth in prison.

Edited April 22, 2017 by Inquirer

[Inquirer]

It's funny, but despite Zelena being the most underused of the regulars this season and the most ostracized from the rest of the main cast, I think she's the only one who has exhibited true character development.  Nothing that Emma, Snow, Charming, Regina, Hook, Henry, Rumple and Belle have gone through has actually changed them in any way.  It's all been pointless and rehashed conflicts that bring them right back to Square 1 by the end. You could cut the conflicts out entirely and it wouldn't make any difference.  But Zelena's growth actually feels like an organic continuation from 5B, in spite of the ridiculousness of how her relationship with Regina was set back.  She's gone from someone famous for whining about how unfair her life was and how she wanted what she didn't have to being someone who is actually content with just a farmhouse and a baby.  Sure, she still hurts from being ostracized and for lacking things that others have, but she handles it with surprising maturity.  Even when the Evil Queen convinced her to help her out back in 6A, she didn't just go right back to the cackling Wicked Witch that she used to be, she remained more on the fence and in a gray area.

In short, she's had the redemption arc that Regina should have had.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Inquirer

[Rumsy4]

I too think Zelena's had a more believable redemption arc than Regina, including the lack of her former victims tripping over themselves to apologize to her. I wish she'd stop groveling to Regina though. Regina clearly doesn't want her.

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I too think Zelena's had a more believable redemption arc than Regina, including the lack of her former victims tripping over themselves to apologize to her. I wish she'd stop groveling to Regina though. Regina clearly doesn't want her.

Regina is the only person she has a connection with, sadly. Though, she does seem to have some consistent interactions going with Belle. First in 5B, when Belle went to her for advice, then in 6A when Zelena tattled on Rumple, and again in the last episode where she asked her to babysit. They're both members of the "Rumple's Scorned Women" club, so they have that going for them.

Edited April 27, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Inquirer]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

Though, she does seem to have some consistent interactions going with Belle. First in 5B, when Belle went to her for advice, then in 6A when Zelena tattled on Rumple, and again in the last episode where she asked her to babysit. They're both members of the "Rumple's Scorned Women" club, so they have that going for them.

And when Zelena said she was going back to Oz, Belle looked sad.  They aren't friends, but they do share a weird kind of bond.

[KingOfHearts]

21 minutes ago, Inquirer said:

They aren't friends, but they do share a weird kind of bond.

This should be the dynamic between Emma and Regina, imo.

[TheGreenKnight]

Talk about Narnia in the OUAT vs. Other Fairy Tales thread reminded me of a fan theory I had years ago at the end of S3. I remember speculating about what the show would be exploring in 4A on another forum before the S3 finale aired and I thought perhaps the characters might be going to Narnia (I can't remember why, something about the door Snow and Charming used to get to Glinda reminding me of the lamp in the snow-covered woods in TLTW&tW). The plot events at the time would’ve synced with the Magician’s Nephew entry of the Narnia series, where *spoilers for the book* two children from our world accidentally realm-jump to a 'dead' world where two witches (who were sisters) had been at war and the sister who lost the war had cast a spell that froze everyone on their planet (like pressing pause on the TV)—essentially killing everyone since nobody would be able to break the spell. Of course the two children accidentally wake up the witch who froze everyone, she catches a ride with them to Narnia--which is just being created by Aslan when they land there--and then as a result we learn the witch takes over Narnia while it's in a state of innocence and becomes the White Witch known in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.

I remember thinking how awesome the parallels would've been with Zelena losing the battle with Regina, having her incomplete spell malfunction and create Narnia instead of the history re-write when mist!Zelena activated it, and Zelena becoming the amalgamation of the Wicked Witch of the West and the White Witch. Plus, the White Witch destroyed one realm and brought the second one to heel, which would've been reminiscent of Zelena in Oz and TEF. Of course Narnia never happened on the show, which is too bad, but I still remember liking my pet theory at the time, lol.

[KingOfHearts]

I still don't understand the logic behind getting rid of Zelena for S7, unless it's just purely budget concerns. She was the only other character with anywhere else to go. Some of the other characters still had potential, but she was the only one I think the writers could have still expanded upon believably. She wasn't a broken record yet.

Edited July 6, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

That was a real puzzler for me.  My guess is that her potential redemption stories overlap too much with Regina's and Hook's.  They also have nowhere else to go with her flashbacks.  If they were interested in actually exploring her believably, they would have done so in Season 5/6, but she ended up being the Evil Queen's dumb pawn for the first half, and not much in the second half.  

[Rumsy4]

I enjoy Zelena in small doses, but her role could have been naturally expanded in Season 6 by building her relationship with Regina and others. Instead, the writers chose to clone Regina and give her twice the screen time than usual.

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

I enjoy Zelena in small doses, but her role could have been naturally expanded in Season 6 by building her relationship with Regina and others. Instead, the writers chose to clone Regina and give her twice the screen time than usual.

Since 6A was about returning to normal Storybrooke, you'd think, "What does a single mother witch do in a small town full of former enemies?" One major problem was her feud with Rumple. There's no way he would let her live. He's killed for much less. He would have to be dead in order for her to walk outside in broad daylight.

[KingOfHearts]

Zelena was such an interesting mess of a character to me. The writers wanted her to wear too many hats (and not just pointy ones). They wanted her to be the unambiguous Big Bad in 3B twirling her moustache everywhere, but they also wanted her to have a sob story and be Regina's sister. They had her be the Wicked Witch of the West from Oz with the only real connection being her green skin. Then she was just a returning nuisance to Regina et al in 4B and 5A, before becoming an anti-hero with a tragic romance with Hades in 5B. And, of course, she had to be a struggling single mom raising the infant who father she deceived to get a bun in the oven. (And of course, her Greek god bf killed the father of her child, because why not.) Then in S6, she's just kind of there for most of it. She becomes a punching bag for Regina pretty much the entire season, which is super frustrating to watch. Then in S7, she's a very wholesome, warm person who is firmly in the hero column (who apparently grew a lot offscreen).

The writers obviously intended to just make her the 3B villain and give the shocking twist that she was Regina's ginger sister. But even in 3B, there is so much screen time devoted to her. Her backstory gets 3 flashback episodes, which I believe is more than any other half-season villain ever got (I count the Cora episode because it is technically just there to explain Zelena's conception and birth). Were we supposed to feel bad for her? She's written to be even pettier than Regina in some places. Her motivation in 3B is super weak. 

[Camera One]

A&E clearly liked her.  As you said, she got more screentime within her half-season than many other half-season arc characters.  They also kept bringing her back, over and over again, like they couldn't let her go.  They repeated some of the same mistakes they made with Regina.  Like her wondering why she doesn't have "the love of the people" in Oz.  Sometimes, it was a tad obvious they were trying to make us feel sorry for her despite the horrible things she actually did.  She became good because of the love she had for her child (what else is new?).  

[Camera One]

I was rewatching another clip, "Zelena Gets Her Pendant from Episode 3.20".  

On its own, this clip actually didn't seem that bad.

But I don't get how Zelena lost her green-ness less than a minute after saying she was letting go of her vendetta against Regina.  

The Writers decided to bring in Glinda's Book of Records that chronicles the future.  That indicates that someone in the writing staff either did a bit of research or read beyond the first Oz book.   That makes it all the more disappointing they brought in nothing else of the source material.  

The Book of Records is a problem since if it foretells the future, why didn't it say anything about Zelena's  extended dictatorial rule of Oz, how the whole of Oz was almost destroyed by the Black Fairy's Curse, or Glinda's own banishment at the hands of Zelena?  

Plus "a powerful sorceress that arrives by Cyclone"?   Zelena arrived by cyclone ages ago.  Why didn't Glinda take her away from her abusive family earlier?  

Edited August 27, 2022 by Camera One

[Camera One]

LOL at this scene with Dorothy, Glinda and the other 2 two witches laughing having cookies while jealous Zelena looked on.  Dorothy must be one entertaining dinner guest.  Do they not use plates in Oz?

Edited August 29, 2022 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

On 8/28/2022 at 9:11 PM, Camera One said:

LOL at this scene with Dorothy, Glinda and the other 2 two witches laughing having cookies while jealous Zelena looked on.  Dorothy must be one entertaining dinner guest.  Do they not use plates in Oz?

Zelena looking through the potted plant LOL. 

It's funny that in no point in time is Dorothy ever a sorceress or witch, and therefore shouldn't even be a candidate to fulfill the prophecy. 

Quote

I was rewatching another clip, "Zelena Gets Her Pendant from Episode 3.20".  

On its own, this clip actually didn't seem that bad.

But I don't get how Zelena lost her green-ness less than a minute after saying she was letting go of her vendetta against Regina.  

Glinda was very clearly using Zelena as more of a "project" than a friend. She was literally spying on her in this clip in Emerald City when Zelena decided not to watch Regina any more. 

Edited August 30, 2022 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

It's funny that in no point in time is Dorothy ever a sorceress or witch, and therefore shouldn't even be a candidate to fulfill the prophecy. 

In the original Oz story, I suppose everyone assumed she was a sorceress since she was in a flying house.  Though I'm not sure if Book Glinda herself would have thought she was a sorceress.  Since she doesn't appear until the end, unlike in the MGM movie.

Even if they considered Dorothy a sorceress in the "Once" context, she could hardly be considered a "powerful" one.  

For all they went on about powerful intelligent women, what did the witches of Oz do other than sit at a table giggling about a plate of cookies?  One of the other witches asked Glinda "Aren't you going to tell her about the prophesy" in their first meeting.  But she never added, "Aren't you going to tell her the REST of the prophesy?"  

This clip with Zelena in Season 5 Episode 16 highlighted all the weaknesses.  The "cute" little Easter Egg call-outs made no sense.  The Munchkins contacted Dorothy?  How?  Zelena was basically Regina-lite with her dumb desire to have "the love of the people".  Her motivations were all over the place.  She must have meant to kill Dorothy by throwing her a spell which killed the guard, but later, she just let her go.  She also seemed totally incompetent (because the scene was framed so poorly) - she could easily have thrown a spell at Dorothy running away even though the curtain was on top of her.   

Dorothy not only had no charisma but did the usual dumb drawing-a-sword against a magical villain.  If they cared about her as a character, why didn't she first get an establishing flashback about what happened to her in Kansas after leaving Oz last time? 

And at the end, does Zelena simply give up on taking the Scarecrow's brain?  Because she later had to use Rumple's spun gold brain or whatever that was.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I don't think having a character who is bitterly jealous of Regina is a bad concept. Who wouldn't be jealous of her? She had literally everything handed to her, an insane amount of power both politically and magically, and could get away with literal murder. She didn't have to work for anything. She lost her teen boyfriend and that was sad, but the harsh realities her subjects were forced to live with every day were so much more disheartening in the long run. 

I thought the "green with envy" idea for the Wicked Witch was a nice cheeky way to explain the green skin, but making her cartoonishly evil and so petty kind of ruined the "right to be jealous" thing she had going. She was portrayed as in the wrong for pointing out how spoiled Regina was. At the same time, she hadn't even met her before. She was off in Oz and had no real reason to blame Regina for anything. At no one point does Regina self-reflect and go, "wow maybe Zelena is right and I did get everything handed to me." Addressing her entitlement would've been a good character beat but the Wicked Witch of the West was a poor choice to do it with. (Although I highly doubt the writers even wanted to address it.)