Buffy

[lembergwatcher]

The question is addressed to those people in the fandom who don't think post-Restless Buffy was "wonderful" and Dawnie's presence made her more so :) And if you really think none of the things listed above had any profound effect on Buffy's personality in one way or another, you're either too idealistic or not paying attention.

[Joe Hellandback]

21 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

The question is addressed to those people in the fandom who don't think post-Restless Buffy was "wonderful" and Dawnie's presence made her more so :) And if you really think none of the things listed above had any profound effect on Buffy's personality in one way or another, you're either too idealistic or not paying attention.

They did, she grew as a character but she was still the girl we all fell in love with.  

[lembergwatcher]

Buffy from season 1 would have been disgusted with Buffy from season 7.

[Halting Hex]

There are so many cases of late-season Buffy facing a situation she'd faced in earlier years and coming off worse.  She's unable to sacrifice Dawn to save the world (she's willing to kill her friends just to give Dawn "five more minutes", for no particular purpose), where before she sent Angel to seemingly-eternal Hell, with barely 10-seconds' hesitation.  She constantly brushes people off with her "you wouldn't understand" bullshit, forgetting the time she told Ford "I don't need to understand.  I just need to know."  She saw how much had been taken from her by being forced to become the Slayer without having any say in that matter, yet she pointlessly subjects thousands of girls around the world to that exact same burden.  

(How tough would it have been to get Willow to focus the activation spell through the Little Red Axe, and thus leave the power-up to the girls already in the house, letting them make their decisions about their destinies [maybe Rona demurs, for example] with knowledge of what this entails, rather than blindsiding some random girl playing baseball too far away to be of any use, anyway?)

And then, as always, there is Spike.  Buffy goes from openly despising him in Becoming Part 2:

Quote

BUFFY: The whole earth may be sucked into Hell, and you want my help 'cause your girlfriend's a big ho? Well, let me take this opportunity to not care.

…to acting like his defense attorney in Sleeper: 

Quote

DAWN: So, it's true? What that vampire told Buffy turned out to be true.

BUFFY: Maybe. But it still doesn't prove that it's Spike. 

The irony being, of course, that Buffy's being over-harsh in 2.22 (Spike's motives may be less than pure, but he is being sincere about wanting to help), but she's just blindly loyal five years later.  As all those corpses in that cellar (and Charlotte, still walking around) prove, rather quickly.

Sigh.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

On 05.12.2018 at 6:09 PM, Halting Hex said:

That said, I'll have to go with #10.  Unwriting Buffy's past (and leaving her uncertain about how much of her current emotions are genuine) had to take a large toll, IMO.

Good point. But I go with #1. Spuffy was the direct result of Bangel.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

They did, she grew as a character but she was still the girl we all fell in love with.  

No, she wasn't, that's the reason we complain about it. And the way she got there didn't make sense either because the writers couldn't even be bothered with excuses for her toleration of Spike, Anya, Andrew and the likes, her loss of intelligence and empathy and so on. But if you want to call this "growing up", feel free. I prefer calling it "OOC nonsense".

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎06‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 6:21 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Buffy from season 1 would have been disgusted with Buffy from season 7.

How so exactly?

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎06‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 8:28 PM, Halting Hex said:

There are so many cases of late-season Buffy facing a situation she'd faced in earlier years and coming off worse.  She's unable to sacrifice Dawn to save the world (she's willing to kill her friends just to give Dawn "five more minutes", for no particular purpose), where before she sent Angel to seemingly-eternal Hell, with barely 10-seconds' hesitation.  She constantly brushes people off with her "you wouldn't understand" bullshit, forgetting the time she told Ford "I don't need to understand.  I just need to know."  She saw how much had been taken from her by being forced to become the Slayer without having any say in that matter, yet she pointlessly subjects thousands of girls around the world to that exact same burden.  

(How tough would it have been to get Willow to focus the activation spell through the Little Red Axe, and thus leave the power-up to the girls already in the house, letting them make their decisions about their destinies [maybe Rona demurs, for example] with knowledge of what this entails, rather than blindsiding some random girl playing baseball too far away to be of any use, anyway?)

And then, as always, there is Spike.  Buffy goes from openly despising him in Becoming Part 2:

…to acting like his defense attorney in Sleeper: 

The irony being, of course, that Buffy's being over-harsh in 2.22 (Spike's motives may be less than pure, but he is being sincere about wanting to help), but she's just blindly loyal five years later.  As all those corpses in that cellar (and Charlotte, still walking around) prove, rather quickly.

Sigh.

1. Because Buffy loves Dawn above all, when she and Dawn die it will close the rift, save her friends and both can be in heaven with Joyce. 

2. She saw how much she'd lost from being the Slayer but also what she'd gained and how it had benefitted the world as a whole. 

3. I get the idea it was an all or nothing deal. Plus if the Scoobs fail they need a Slayer army in reserve to help out AI/The Initiaitive/Shield etc

4. Spike in Becoming pt2 didn't have a soul? Poor Charlotte and co were killed by Spike under mind control and all the Scoobs except Tara suffered that at some point. 

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

1. Because Buffy loves Dawn above all, when she and Dawn die it will close the rift, save her friends and both can be in heaven with Joyce. 

Er…not so much.

Quote

GILES: "The blood flows, the gates will open. The gates will close when it flows no more." When Dawn is dead.

Giles makes it plain.  Unless they can stop the ritual from starting, the only way to save the world is to kill Dawn.

Quote

BUFFY: Pretty simple math, here. We stop Glory before she can start the ritual. There's still a couple of hours, right?

GILES: If my calculations are right, but Buffy --

BUFFY: I don't want to hear it --

GILES: I understand that --

BUFFY: No you don't understand! We're not talking about this!

GILES (standing): Yes we bloody well are!

(Ooh. Giles yelled at Buffy.)

GILES (cont'd): If Glory begins the ritual... If we can't stop her ...

BUFFY: Say it. Come on, we're bloody well talking about this, tell me to kill my sister!

Giles is basically saying that since there's very little chance to stop Glory from starting the ritual, logic says the best solution is to kill Dawn before things reach that point, since they would have to kill Dawn anyhow, later.  Buffy refuses to even discuss this.

Actually, Buffy has a better rebuttal here, since they don't actually have Dawn hanging around nearby to kill.  So they'd have to (logically) bust through Glory's crew to get there, anyway.  Might as well take a shot at ruining the ritual some other way, while they're at it.  But Buffy's too strongly in "Don't touch Dawn!" mode to hit that nuance.

Quote

GILES: Buffy, if the ritual starts, every living creature in this and every other dimension imaginable will suffer unbearable torment and Death. Including Dawn.

BUFFY: Then the last thing she'll see is me protecting her.

Giles again points out that the Key to saving billions and billions of innocents (including him and Willow and Xander) is killing Dawn as expeditiously as possible.  Buffy again says she doesn't give a shit about anyone but Dawnie.  So much for the "she'll be glad to die with Dawn, knowing that her friends are safe" theory.

Quote

GILES: You'll fail. You'll die. We all will.
BUFFY: I'm sorry. I love you all, but I'm sorry.

And here he's even more explicit.  It's Dawn or all of them. (Including Dawn, for that matter.)  And Buffy's basically, "fuck you guys, I'm choosing Dawn."

Quote

GILES: I love Dawn.

BUFFY: I know.

GILES: But I have sworn to protect this sorry world, and sometimes that means saying and doing... what other people can't. What they shouldn't have to.

BUFFY: You try to hurt her, you know I'll stop you.

And again (for the fifth time), Giles very gently suggests that Buffy get her head out of Dawn's ass.  For a fifth time, Buffy declines.

Quote

BUFFY: Remember, the ritual starts, we all die. And I'll kill anyone who comes near Dawn.

And for the SIXTH time, Buffy makes it clear that she would rather Dawn live, no matter how little time longer, than let those in the room make the hard choice and "kill" a loved one for the sake of the world.  You know, like Buffy herself did to Angel back before the monks fucked with her mind and made her the selfish bitch we see here.  She's willing to kill Giles, to kill Willow, to kill Xander, to kill Anya, to kill Tara, to kill Spike (no great losses, some of those, but still) because Dawn means more to her than all the others combined.  She has no interest in "saving" her friends, that much is clear.

At least the right Summers ended up jumping.  Because Dawn was clearly more heroic than Buffy, at this point.

(Really?  Giles fucking LOVES Dawn?  Tolerates her as a kindness towards Buffy, I can see.  Thinks she's moderately inoffensive, all right.   But love?  JFC, the Monks don't know how to do 'subtle' at all, do they?)

Edited December 8, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

How so exactly?

Shitty attitude towards people she used to care about (W, X, G), first and foremost. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

How so exactly?

For a start, the same way homicide detectives are disgusted with people who marry imprisoned serial killers, I would imagine. Or seeing a bright young woman turn into a mindless dumb automation who had no warmness for anyone and was so dull that the simplistic Buffy Bot was a hundred times more fun to watch.

Quote

1. Because Buffy loves Dawn above all

You (and the show sometimes) keep saying that, yet so many people, myself included see it differently.

Quote

So much for the "she'll be glad to die with Dawn, knowing that her friends are safe" theory.

Yes, I have no idea how anyone can believe this when Buffy literally says "Remember, the ritual starts, we all die.". Which was the moment when she became dead to me, by the way. To me, it's actually really depressing that Buffy's attitude in The Gift isn't more widely condemned. She isn't even choosing between Dawn living and the entire rest of the world surviving, she is choosing between Dawn living a few minutes more and the end of the world and we are supposed to understand and sympathize with her? No, a thousand times no. And no "But things worked out in the end (based on a a blatant logic fallacy, by the way" isn't an excuse. Things would have worked out just fine if Buffy had behaved sanely and agreed to the plan to kill Dawn if there was no other option. You know, as Dawn herself tried to do.

And then Joss even has the gall to have Giles give a whole fucking speech on how heroes can't make these tough choices, as if he wasn't the one who wrote Becoming II and Lie to Me in which Buffy did just that. Was he high or he just had lost all respect for his audience?

[Halting Hex]

5 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Was [Joss] high…?

Unknown, but he was under a bit of stress, if we judge from the script (for The Gift):

Quote

And Spike jumps over the whole defensive crazy line to land in the thick of the minions, just fists and fury. (Fists, in fact, OF fury.)(Not David Fury.)(Though his fists are formidable.)(What, no, I'm not sleepy! Hey, I'm in CHARGE, here!)

That said, Joss allegedly wrote Becoming Part 1 while sick as a dog, so while I enjoy this sort of backstage dish, I still judge the script by what ends up on screen.

[Joe Hellandback]

18 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Er…not so much.

Giles makes it plain.  Unless they can stop the ritual from starting, the only way to save the world is to kill Dawn.

Giles is basically saying that since there's very little chance to stop Glory from starting the ritual, logic says the best solution is to kill Dawn before things reach that point, since they would have to kill Dawn anyhow, later.  Buffy refuses to even discuss this.

Actually, Buffy has a better rebuttal here, since they don't actually have Dawn hanging around nearby to kill.  So they'd have to (logically) bust through Glory's crew to get there, anyway.  Might as well take a shot at ruining the ritual some other way, while they're at it.  But Buffy's too strongly in "Don't touch Dawn!" mode to hit that nuance.

Giles again points out that the Key to saving billions and billions of innocents (including him and Willow and Xander) is killing Dawn as expeditiously as possible.  Buffy again says she doesn't give a shit about anyone but Dawnie.  So much for the "she'll be glad to die with Dawn, knowing that her friends are safe" theory.

And here he's even more explicit.  It's Dawn or all of them. (Including Dawn, for that matter.)  And Buffy's basically, "fuck you guys, I'm choosing Dawn."

And again (for the fifth time), Giles very gently suggests that Buffy get her head out of Dawn's ass.  For a fifth time, Buffy declines.

And for the SIXTH time, Buffy makes it clear that she would rather Dawn live, no matter how little time longer, than let those in the room make the hard choice and "kill" a loved one for the sake of the world.  You know, like Buffy herself did to Angel back before the monks fucked with her mind and made her the selfish bitch we see here.  She's willing to kill Giles, to kill Willow, to kill Xander, to kill Anya, to kill Tara, to kill Spike (no great losses, some of those, but still) because Dawn means more to her than all the others combined.  She has no interest in "saving" her friends, that much is clear.

At least the right Summers ended up jumping.  Because Dawn was clearly more heroic than Buffy, at this point.

(Really?  Giles fucking LOVES Dawn?  Tolerates her as a kindness towards Buffy, I can see.  Thinks she's moderately inoffensive, all right.   But love?  JFC, the Monks don't know how to do 'subtle' at all, do they?)

Giles loves Dawn because everyone loves Dawn, that's why they made her the little sis. Buffy knows that she if the rift opens they will both die but will be together to the end. All the Summers girls are heroic, it's in their DNA. 

[Joe Hellandback]

18 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Shitty attitude towards people she used to care about (W, X, G), first and foremost. 

And she cares about them all but Dawn is the love of her life and they would all trade their lives for the Dawnster. 

16 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

For a start, the same way homicide detectives are disgusted with people who marry imprisoned serial killers, I would imagine. Or seeing a bright young woman turn into a mindless dumb automation who had no warmness for anyone and was so dull that the simplistic Buffy Bot was a hundred times more fun to watch.

You (and the show sometimes) keep saying that, yet so many people, myself included see it differently.

Yes, I have no idea how anyone can believe this when Buffy literally says "Remember, the ritual starts, we all die.". Which was the moment when she became dead to me, by the way. To me, it's actually really depressing that Buffy's attitude in The Gift isn't more widely condemned. She isn't even choosing between Dawn living and the entire rest of the world surviving, she is choosing between Dawn living a few minutes more and the end of the world and we are supposed to understand and sympathize with her? No, a thousand times no. And no "But things worked out in the end (based on a a blatant logic fallacy, by the way" isn't an excuse. Things would have worked out just fine if Buffy had behaved sanely and agreed to the plan to kill Dawn if there was no other option. You know, as Dawn herself tried to do.

And then Joss even has the gall to have Giles give a whole fucking speech on how heroes can't make these tough choices, as if he wasn't the one who wrote Becoming II and Lie to Me in which Buffy did just that. Was he high or he just had lost all respect for his audience?

The Gift-Buffy; "She's more than a sister to me, our relationship is physical, like she's part of me"

End of Days-Buffy; "My dearest Dawn, know that I love you and that everything I do is for you"

Buffy is not the carefree girl of the earlier seasons but that's growing up. 

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

And she cares about them all but Dawn is the love of her life and they would all trade their lives for the Dawnster.

Sorry. I guess I missed something. Maybe she "cares" about 'em all in her own twisted ways, but, let's face it, she has zero respect for her best friends.

Buffy promises not to keep secrets from them - from Willow in particular - in Primeval but her promises just go down the drain after the truth about her so-called "sister" is revealed several eps later. Say what you like about Buffy not wanting to put Willow and Xander in danger, but she had to tell them everything since she expected their help. The less is said about Buffy's treatment of her friends in The Gift, the better. In the subsequent season we see how she "cares" about her supposed friends, who almost sacrificed their lives to bring her back from the dead, by deliberately lying to them once again, by shutting them out and raising no objections when Spike suggests killing them all. Dawnster? I bet the brat doesn't feel like being the "love" of her big sister's life at all (Dead Things, Older and Far Away, Normal Again to name but a few). We can say Buffy loves her lil sis but choses to keep those feelings to herself most of the time.

The final season? Letting mentally unstable and murderous Spike walk the earth is hardly a proof Buffy cares about anyone other than her bleached perv-shaped obsession. And don't tell me about Spike being under The First's mind control and thus not responsible for his actions, 'cause this doesn't make him any less dangerous. If the First is able to brainwash Spikey into killing all those people we see in CWDP and Sleeper he can easily trigger Captain Peroxide to kill everyone in Casa Summers. But our heroine doesn't give a hoot about any of that due to her idiotic assumption about Spikey's non-existent abilities (therefore fuck you, Robin Wood, and fuck your dead mother). She thinks he is the only one watching her butt (or should I say "back"?) - how exactly does this prove Buffy has any respect for her friends and potentials and the job they perform? She has no problem with literally telling them they are useless in Get it Done, after all.

See, she does care about others but only as long as those others serve the wahatever mission, serve her purpose. Poor Chloe killed herself and thus can't be a "soldier" in the Slayer "army" anymore? For Buffy there's absolutely nothing wrong with burying her like a dog in an unmarked shallow grave, and than trash-talking the dead girl in front of others (I swear if Xander said something like that, everyone would be tearing him a new one). Buffy thinks she's learned everything from Giles just because he refuses to follow her lead when it comes to Spikey? To hell with Giles! Go fuck yourself, you, bleeding Watcher. Willow isn't ready to act as a Super Wicca she used to be? Why not taunt her in conversation with an outsider (Wood)? And let us not forget that Buffy "cares" about her non-super powered maimed best friend Xander soooo much she's not willing to spend at least one hour with him and Willow in the hospital (knowing full well how important it is for both of them). And Xander is not some random stranger, mind you. He's the one who stood by Buffy from the very beginning!  The world isn't going to end just because Buffy spends some time chatting and playing cards with her two bestest buds.

As for Dawn, I don't see Buffy treating her sis as the "love of her life" in season 7 either. Buffy from final season is all about Spike, Spike, Spike. Dawn? Not so much.  

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

Willow isn't ready to act as a Super Wicca she used to be? Why not taunt her in conversation with an outsider (Wood)?

Aagh!  I'd forgotten "a Wicca who won't-a"!  The brain bleach had worked!  And now I need to reapply it.

It's "great" how in just four words Buffy can

a) be bitching about her best friend to somebody she barely knows (and of whom she was justly suspicious only last episode!)

b) reduce Willow to her most superficial external characteristics ("a Wicca"), rather than value her as, you know, Willow

c) essentially act as if Willow's betraying her by not being ready to be Buffy's "big gun", and 

d) breaking the promise she made to Willow after Willow was possessed in Bring on the Night:

Quote

WILLOW: It [the First]'s still in me. I feel it!

BUFFY: No, it's not. It's gone. You're OK.

WILLOW: I don't want to hurt anybody. Please, Buffy, don't let it make me. Oh, God!

BUFFY: We won't. I promise, OK? I promise. We won't use magic to fight this thing until we know what we're doing.

That's right, Willow had Ultimate Evil inside of her.  Not just doing an impression, as the First does of Buffy and Spike (and others this year), inside of her.  And so Buffy, showing rare logical thinking, told Willow that they wouldn't risk another attack like that "until we know what we're doing".

Five episodes later, Buffy's bitching out Willow behind her back as if by needing Buffy to make that very sensible promise, Willow was somehow selling her out.  As I wrote once, "I was never so sad to be so right." (About how Buffy only saw Willow as a "gun".) Although I did mix in a few choruses of "I told you so!" amongst all the bitterness, IIRC.

It's so funny to recall 2003 and how people kept assuming that Buffy's insanely bitchy psychosis (this is the same episode as the "Chloe was a loser" and the "everyone sucks but me" speeches, remember) was meant to be off-putting and she would "snap out of it" later in the season.  Just as we spent much of S6 imagining that season's Mopey!Buffy was a phase and she would snap out of that, post-Normal Again.  Never happened, either time.  Our "heroine" is shiny and pure and everything that we think makes her repugnant to the casual observer is just more proof of how much she suffers under her burden and how PEOPLE JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND and how Only Spike's been "watching [her] back" and vomit!

I swear, Buffy on UPN is more of a sulky thirteen-year-old than Dawn ever was.  At least actual middle-schoolers get giddy every now and then.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

19 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Sorry. I guess I missed something. Maybe she "cares" about 'em all in her own twisted ways, but, let's face it, she has zero respect for her best friends.

Buffy promises not to keep secrets from them - from Willow in particular - in Primeval but her promises just go down the drain after the truth about her so-called "sister" is revealed several eps later. Say what you like about Buffy not wanting to put Willow and Xander in danger, but she had to tell them everything since she expected their help. The less is said about Buffy's treatment of her friends in The Gift, the better. In the subsequent season we see how she "cares" about her supposed friends, who almost sacrificed their lives to bring her back from the dead, by deliberately lying to them once again, by shutting them out and raising no objections when Spike suggests killing them all. Dawnster? I bet the brat doesn't feel like being the "love" of her big sister's life at all (Dead Things, Older and Far Away, Normal Again to name but a few). We can say Buffy loves her lil sis but choses to keep those feelings to herself most of the time.

The final season? Letting mentally unstable and murderous Spike walk the earth is hardly a proof Buffy cares about anyone other than her bleached perv-shaped obsession. And don't tell me about Spike being under The First's mind control and thus not responsible for his actions, 'cause this doesn't make him any less dangerous. If the First is able to brainwash Spikey into killing all those people we see in CWDP and Sleeper he can easily trigger Captain Peroxide to kill everyone in Casa Summers. But our heroine doesn't give a hoot about any of that due to her idiotic assumption about Spikey's non-existent abilities (therefore fuck you, Robin Wood, and fuck your dead mother). She thinks he is the only one watching her butt (or should I say "back"?) - how exactly does this prove Buffy has any respect for her friends and potentials and the job they perform? She has no problem with literally telling them they are useless in Get it Done, after all.

See, she does care about others but only as long as those others serve the wahatever mission, serve her purpose. Poor Chloe killed herself and thus can't be a "soldier" in the Slayer "army" anymore? For Buffy there's absolutely nothing wrong with burying her like a dog in an unmarked shallow grave, and than trash-talking the dead girl in front of others (I swear if Xander said something like that, everyone would be tearing him a new one). Buffy thinks she's learned everything from Giles just because he refuses to follow her lead when it comes to Spikey? To hell with Giles! Go fuck yourself, you, bleeding Watcher. Willow isn't ready to act as a Super Wicca she used to be? Why not taunt her in conversation with an outsider (Wood)? And let us not forget that Buffy "cares" about her non-super powered maimed best friend Xander soooo much she's not willing to spend at least one hour with him and Willow in the hospital (knowing full well how important it is for both of them). And Xander is not some random stranger, mind you. He's the one who stood by Buffy from the very beginning!  The world isn't going to end just because Buffy spends some time chatting and playing cards with her two bestest buds.

As for Dawn, I don't see Buffy treating her sis as the "love of her life" in season 7 either. Buffy from final season is all about Spike, Spike, Spike. Dawn? Not so much.  

Plenty of Daffy love in season 7 (the boyfriend stealing incident aside). Buffy was mad at Chloe and rightly so, she did care, remember the scene where Buffy walks around amongst the sleeping potentials and tries to reach out to the crying Chloe. I was mad with Xander and Dawn at making Buffy bury Chloe by herself. She cares for Spike and considers him an invaluable asset which indeed he turns out to be.  

17 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Aagh!  I'd forgotten "a Wicca who won't-a"!  The brain bleach had worked!  And now I need to reapply it.

It's "great" how in just four words Buffy can

a) be bitching about her best friend to somebody she barely knows (and of whom she was justly suspicious only last episode!)

b) reduce Willow to her most superficial external characteristics ("a Wicca"), rather than value her as, you know, Willow

c) essentially act as if Willow's betraying her by not being ready to be Buffy's "big gun", and 

d) breaking the promise she made to Willow after Willow was possessed in Bring on the Night:

That's right, Willow had Ultimate Evil inside of her.  Not just doing an impression, as the First does of Buffy and Spike (and others this year), inside of her.  And so Buffy, showing rare logical thinking, told Willow that they wouldn't risk another attack like that "until we know what we're doing".

Five episodes later, Buffy's bitching out Willow behind her back as if by needing Buffy to make that very sensible promise, Willow was somehow selling her out.  As I wrote once, "I was never so sad to be so right." (About how Buffy only saw Willow as a "gun".) Although I did mix in a few choruses of "I told you so!" amongst all the bitterness, IIRC.

It's so funny to recall 2003 and how people kept assuming that Buffy's insanely bitchy psychosis (this is the same episode as the "Chloe was a loser" and the "everyone sucks but me" speeches, remember) was meant to be off-putting and she would "snap out of it" later in the season.  Just as we spent much of S6 imagining that season's Mopey!Buffy was a phase and she would snap out of that, post-Normal Again.  Never happened, either time.  Our "heroine" is shiny and pure and everything that we think makes her repugnant to the casual observer is just more proof of how much she suffers under her burden and how PEOPLE JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND and how Only Spike's been "watching [her] back" and vomit!

I swear, Buffy on UPN is more of a sulky thirteen-year-old than Dawn ever was.  At least actual middle-schoolers get giddy every now and then.

I agree with you that this is the 'snap out of it' speech but as Buffy states, ultimately Spike is the only one there for her? 

[lembergwatcher]

7 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Buffy was mad at Chloe and rightly so, she did care, remember the scene where Buffy walks around amongst the sleeping potentials and tries to reach out to the crying Chloe.

Mad for what? For dying? For falling for The First's manipulations? If Spikey the "strongest fighter" can't resist The First's trick, how can you expect something like that from an inexperienced teenage girl? And wasn't "Buffy trying to reach out to the crying Chloe" just a dream?  

 

12 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I was mad with Xander and Dawn at making Buffy bury Chloe by herself.

How about contacting Chloe's parents or other living relatives and letting them bury the girl in a proper way?

 

13 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

She cares for Spike and considers him an invaluable asset which indeed he turns out to be.

Even if he can kill all her friends and potentials anytime? She cares for Spike, but she doesn't give a damn about the rest. Which proves my point.

 

15 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

ultimately Spike is the only one there for her

If you shut your friends out most of the time, constantly belittle them, treat people that love you like garbage and adopt "the Joan Collins 'tude", it's no wonder your friends turn their backs on you one day and you're left with no one by your side, but a walking corpse.

[Jack Shaftoe]

20 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

It's so funny to recall 2003 and how people kept assuming that Buffy's insanely bitchy psychosis (this is the same episode as the "Chloe was a loser" and the "everyone sucks but me" speeches, remember) was meant to be off-putting and she would "snap out of it" later in the season.  Just as we spent much of S6 imagining that season's Mopey!Buffy was a phase and she would snap out of that, post-Normal Again.  Never happened, either time.  Our "heroine" is shiny and pure and everything that we think makes her repugnant to the casual observer is just more proof of how much she suffers under her burden and how PEOPLE JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND and how Only Spike's been "watching [her] back" and vomit!

I swear, Buffy on UPN is more of a sulky thirteen-year-old than Dawn ever was.  At least actual middle-schoolers get giddy every now and then.

I have always thought post-The Body BtVS has a strikingly adolescent presentation of "adult" life - full of misery, angst and edginess that is far more similar to how some teenagers picture it than to reality. "My boyfriend is troubled, nobody can possibly understand how he really is, only I get him", "I must get the most demeaning job possible so the world can really feel my angst", "My friends just don't get that I am so special", "Parental and other authority figures are the worst, except when I am in charge in which case everyone is so ungrateful and can't appreciate my awesome leadership", "Romantic relationships are nothing but angst, happy couples is something only losers believe exists", etc.

Quote

I was mad with Xander and Dawn at making Buffy bury Chloe by herself.

How exactly did they "make" do that? Did they put a gun to her head or something?

Quote

She cares for Spike and considers him an invaluable asset which indeed he turns out to be.  

We have had this discussion befpre but I can't help but answer once again - what happens eventually is utterly irrelevant unless the character in question had any reason to believe things would unfold that way. Otherwise, we might as well applaud Buffy for not bothering to give chase to Spike in Halloween on the basis of what he did five years later. Triggered Spike was no asset in any way, shape or form and he only stopped being triggered by complete accident and as a result of actions Buffy tried really hard to prevent. And he didn't kill anyone in the prior weeks because the First is a dumbass. In short, Buffy was rescued by writer fiat.

[Halting Hex]

5 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

[Buffy] cares for Spike

How? Why? How?  (Three excellent questions.)  He tried to rape her, remember?  After which she explicitly said that she could never love him, despite their sexual history.

And if one somehow posits that by getting his soul Spike has completely erased his S6 crimes (which means that Buffy should no longer be counting the sex or his "protecting" Dawn or flirtation over kitten poker in his favor, since they were part of the Soulless!Spike package, too), that S7 Spike is a complete blank slate, then how should we believe Buffy "cares" for him?  She doesn't even know this guy!  Not only has she barely spent any time around him (even less when we consider the [apparent] month that the First held him hostage), but he was insane for weeks and weeks and weeks.

Might she feel responsible for him? Sure.  But a romantic attachment?  Could only be based on their previous history…which makes Buffy someone in desperate need of several interventions and lots of psychotherapy, IMO.

3 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

[Buffy] considers him an invaluable asset which indeed he turns out to be.  

No, he mostly gets tossed around in the fights.  He's certainly no use against Caleb.  His main asset is that he's able to become Champion Flambé by wearing the Amulet of Assitude in the finale.  And since the criterion there is "Someone ensouled, but stronger than human", as Angel says, there are lots of candidates.

There's Angel himself, who had planned on wearing it.  (And Wolfram & Hart probably intended for him to do so, getting rid of their major nemesis in a way he wouldn't object to.)  There's Buffy, there's Faith.

And then there are those dozens of Potentials, all underfoot, just waiting to become "stronger than human".  I mean, Chao An still probably doesn't understand what's going on, as nobody has bothered to learn Chinese…drop the amulet on her and let her get the "big dessert at the end of the meal."  (It's better for her than ice cream, since she's lactose intolerant.)  Or give it to Rona or Kennedy or…

So no, even as a flaming sacrifice, Spike is hardly "invaluable".  JMO.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎10‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 9:13 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Mad for what? For dying? For falling for The First's manipulations? If Spikey the "strongest fighter" can't resist The First's trick, how can you expect something like that from an inexperienced teenage girl? And wasn't "Buffy trying to reach out to the crying Chloe" just a dream?  

 

How about contacting Chloe's parents or other living relatives and letting them bury the girl in a proper way?

 

Even if he can kill all her friends and potentials anytime? She cares for Spike, but she doesn't give a damn about the rest. Which proves my point.

 

If you shut your friends out most of the time, constantly belittle them, treat people that love you like garbage and adopt "the Joan Collins 'tude", it's no wonder your friends turn their backs on you one day and you're left with no one by your side, but a walking corpse.

For giving up, Spike was mind controlled, Chloe just abandoned them. It may have been a (prophetic?) dream but Buffy's concern is real. As for telling her family, too many questions to be asked. She cares for everyone and can and does sacrifice Spike to save them. She doesn't do that but she's the general with this terrible pressure upon her, look at the scenes with Spike where she tell him she doesn't want this awful responsibility any more?

23 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I have always thought post-The Body BtVS has a strikingly adolescent presentation of "adult" life - full of misery, angst and edginess that is far more similar to how some teenagers picture it than to reality. "My boyfriend is troubled, nobody can possibly understand how he really is, only I get him", "I must get the most demeaning job possible so the world can really feel my angst", "My friends just don't get that I am so special", "Parental and other authority figures are the worst, except when I am in charge in which case everyone is so ungrateful and can't appreciate my awesome leadership", "Romantic relationships are nothing but angst, happy couples is something only losers believe exists", etc.

How exactly did they "make" do that? Did they put a gun to her head or something?

We have had this discussion befpre but I can't help but answer once again - what happens eventually is utterly irrelevant unless the character in question had any reason to believe things would unfold that way. Otherwise, we might as well applaud Buffy for not bothering to give chase to Spike in Halloween on the basis of what he did five years later. Triggered Spike was no asset in any way, shape or form and he only stopped being triggered by complete accident and as a result of actions Buffy tried really hard to prevent. And he didn't kill anyone in the prior weeks because the First is a dumbass. In short, Buffy was rescued by writer fiat.

They should have come with her, helped her, they are her rock. She didn't chase Spike as she now had a load of little kids to protect and probably couldn't have caught him in her dress. 

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

For giving up, Spike was mind controlled, Chloe just abandoned them.

So you're blaming Chloe for killing herself out of the "evilness of her heart"?
 

Quote

BUFFY
You're not Chloe.

CHLOE/FIRST
Yeah, well, neither is she, anymore. Now, she's just Chloe's body.

KENNEDY
What did you do to her?

CHLOE/FIRST
Nothing! We just talked all night. Well, I did most of the talking, but Chloe is...I'm sorry, was a good listener. 'Til she hanged herself. (to Kennedy) Like when you called her maggot—she really heard that.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but Chloe was defenitely under the First's influence the moment she took her own life and therefore can't be hold accountable. Your assumption that she did it just to abandon (betray, sell out) General Von Buffy is somewhat inhumane, I guess. Because I find it quite strange when people root for monsters like Spike/Anya, but have zero sympathy for innocent humans like poor Chloe.

 

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

As for telling her family, too many questions to be asked.

If she buries a human being like an animal in an unmarked shallow grave just because she doesn't want to answer some questions, then she shouldn't expect anyone's help in her very callous act. Btw, what if Chloe's parents had come to visit the very next day? What would Buffy tell them? "Hi, Mr. & Mrs. .............., Your daughter Chloe... she, you know, killed herself yesterday and I couldn't come up with anything other than burying her like trash in the garden. You should be proud of your daughter, Mr. & Mrs. .............., she makes a good fertilizer"?

 

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

She doesn't do that but she's the general with this terrible pressure

You mean, she doesn't bash her best friend for not casting powerful spells? She doesn't tell her Watcher to back off and let Wood know she won't mind his mother's killer killing him as well? She doesn't tell everyone they suck in Get It Done or ignore their concerns in Dirty Girls? She doesn't give Willow a scornful look after she suggests they spend some time together with Xander in the hospital in Empty Places? She doesn't act like Dawn's invisible when her sis wants to hear a few more words regarding Xander's condition? If she's really a "general" as you claim her to be, such kind of attitude does nothing but demoralize her "army".

Edited December 11, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

They should have come with her, helped her, they are her rock. She didn't chase Spike as she now had a load of little kids to protect and probably couldn't have caught him in her dress. 

So they didn't actually make Buffy do anything, she chose to do it and they merely didn't help her. Same as Empty Places where people say Buffy was "kicked out" when she actually threw a hissy fit and literally took her toys and left.

Quote

She didn't chase Spike as she now had a load of little kids to protect and probably couldn't have caught him in her dress. 

Protect from whom? The spell was lifted and Xander and Angel were nearby anyway.

As for the great pressure Buffy was under - that's what often happens to leaders who can't delegate tasks properly and insist on doing everything themselves. The actual danger of, you know, the world ending, wasn't really any greater than in previous seasons.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Jack Shaftoe

[Joe Hellandback]

21 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

So you're blaming Chloe for killing herself out of the "evilness of her heart"?
 

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but Chloe was defenitely under the First's influence the moment she took her own life and therefore can't be hold accountable. Your assumption that she did it just to abandon (betray, sell out) General Von Buffy is somewhat inhumane, I guess. Because I find it quite strange when people root for monsters like Spike/Anya, but have zero sympathy for innocent humans like poor Chloe.

 

If she buries a human being like an animal in an unmarked shallow grave just because she doesn't want to answer some questions, then she shouldn't expect anyone's help in her very callous act. Btw, what if Chloe's parents had come to visit the very next day? What would Buffy tell them? "Hi, Mr. & Mrs. .............., Your daughter Chloe... she, you know, killed herself yesterday and I couldn't come up with anything other than burying her like trash in the garden. You should be proud of your daughter, Mr. & Mrs. .............., she makes a good fertilizer"?

 

You mean, she doesn't bash her best friend for not casting powerful spells? She doesn't tell her Watcher to back off and let Wood know she won't mind his mother's killer killing him as well? She doesn't tell everyone they suck in Get It Done or ignore their concerns in Dirty Girls? She doesn't give Willow a scornful look after she suggests they spend some time together with Xander in the hospital in Empty Places? She doesn't act like Dawn's invisible when her sis wants to hear a few more words regarding Xander's condition? If she's really a "general" as you claim her to be, such kind of attitude does nothing but demoralize her "army".

No but I'm angry for leaving them all in the lurch. The First persuades her but does not control her. What else are they going to do with Chloe whose parents must already know she's on the run at least? She wants the guys to step up not chicken out like Chloe, maybe she has gone to far and alienates them but she's doing her best.  

[lembergwatcher]

On 12.12.2018 at 11:30 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

What else are they going to do with Chloe whose parents must already know she's on the run at least?

Maybe burying her in a proper way?

 

On 12.12.2018 at 11:30 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

chicken out like Chloe

Don't you think Chloe was an individual with her own issues, character traits, emotions, dreams or aspirations first and foremost, and not just Buffy's tool, a foot soldier in the Slayer Army whose sole purpose in life was fighting, following orders or satisfying her general's every need? Don't you think the death of a very young girl is itself a tragedy, and not only because the others are "left in the lurch"? "Chicken out"? So you really expect a 14/15/16-years-old girl to think and act the way the experienced older Slayers like Buffy and Faith or her stronger sister potentials like Kennedy and Amanda do? Wasn't it Buffy's duty to boost morale and not to demoralize her "troops" with shitty "I am the law" 'tude, after all?   

Edited December 13, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Jack Shaftoe]

Considering that Buffy herself had contemplated suicide not so long ago (and actually committed one in The Gift), describing Chloe's actions as "chickening out" is rather hypocritical, IMO. Buffy doing her best would have been to recognize the utter idiocy of treating teenagers with no training or experience fighting anyone, let alone mythical monsters far stronger than them, as adult boot camp recruits. I mean, she certainly didn't treat her precious Dawnie that way, at least not most of the time and she had far more experience with vampires and so on than your average Potential. When Angel intended to end his life in Amends I seem to recall Buffy showing far more sympathy, same with Spike's (probably not entirely honest but still) attempt to make her kill him after the trigger debacle.

[lembergwatcher]

The problem is that since this is Buffy's show (i.e., the name is Buffy the Vampire Slayer, not The Scooby Gang: Sunnydale), many fans tend to view all other characters as a mere sidekicks whose sole purpose in life is to serve Buffy and whose lives themselves have to revolve around the Slayer and her problems. Any attempts to prove the contrary are usually met with resentment, like it's some sort of betrayal of Buffy. It's sickening how some people spew so much hate against Willow for merely suggesting she's more than just Buffy's right hand and has her own life, her dreams, aspirations, worries and fears, and that sometimes she needs her best girl-friend around to talk about the things she cannot discuss with either Oz or Xander in DMP. But how dares she if the only reason Willow Rosenberg exists is to support and help Buffy Summers? And that's probably why Buffy doesn't seem to hear her supposed best friend when she says "I’m not your sidekick!" in Fear, Itself. 

Chloe was born to be the soldier in the Slayer Army under Buffy's command - just like Willow and Xander were born to be Buffy's Slayerettes. Who cares whether she had her own life to live, her hopes and dreams, and many issues - just like the rest of those we call humans? She had to become Buffy's "gun", obey without question, fight and die. And just because she died not on the battlefield but due to her inability to cope with the tremendous pressure and falling for The First's manipulations, Buffy (and her fans) can "rightfully" bash Chloe for "chickening out" and call the poor girl every foul name there is. And screw the fact that, as Jack Shaftoe pointed out, Buffy herself was few steps away from taking her own life not so long ago.

Willow, Xander, Chloe, Kennedy, Vi, Giles, Faith, Amanda, Anya, Molly, Dawn, Rhona, Chao-Ahn, Caridad, Andrew etc - they're a mere tools Buffy has a legitimate right to use, with no regard for anything and anyone. Tools are not supposed to have their POV and question the self-proclaimed leader's authority, they cannot say or do anything that might upset or disappoint their "boss". Therefore they're obliged to follow Buffy's lead, no matter how stupid her plans can sometimes be. Weapons are not allowed to object the way they did in Empty Places.

Furthermore, first Chloe, Rhona, Kennedy and Amanda, and then the baseball girl and all the Danas of the world, activated due to Buffy's interference in the heat of the final fight, have to be totally delighted for such a "gift", all of them should be over the moon thanks to Buffy's act of "women empowerment worldwide". Just like Buffy herself was soooo enthusiastic about her Slayer mojo back in 1996-1997 (only she wasn't). To hell with what the magic will do with their lives and their sanity. Buffy is the Queen, everyone else has to thank whatever God they believe in for breathing the same air with Buffy.  

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 11:52 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Maybe burying her in a proper way?

 

Don't you think Chloe was an individual with her own issues, character traits, emotions, dreams or aspirations first and foremost, and not just Buffy's tool, a foot soldier in the Slayer Army whose sole purpose in life was fighting, following orders or satisfying her general's every need? Don't you think the death of a very young girl is itself a tragedy, and not only because the others are "left in the lurch"? "Chicken out"? So you really expect a 14/15/16-years-old girl to think and act the way the experienced older Slayers like Buffy and Faith or her stronger sister potentials like Kennedy and Amanda do? Wasn't it Buffy's duty to boost morale and not to demoralize her "troops" with shitty "I am the law" 'tude, after all?   

Too many questions, the SDPD poking about is not what they need. Yes her death is a tragedy but Buffy is the general and can't go to pieces every time she loses a soldier, look at her reaction when Kendra is killed.  

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 12:49 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

Considering that Buffy herself had contemplated suicide not so long ago (and actually committed one in The Gift), describing Chloe's actions as "chickening out" is rather hypocritical, IMO. Buffy doing her best would have been to recognize the utter idiocy of treating teenagers with no training or experience fighting anyone, let alone mythical monsters far stronger than them, as adult boot camp recruits. I mean, she certainly didn't treat her precious Dawnie that way, at least not most of the time and she had far more experience with vampires and so on than your average Potential. When Angel intended to end his life in Amends I seem to recall Buffy showing far more sympathy, same with Spike's (probably not entirely honest but still) attempt to make her kill him after the trigger debacle.

Firstly, Buffy herself accepted her calling and daily risked her life to protect others, she's not asking anything of The Potentials she hasn't done herself. Secondly she died to save the world, not because she couldn't stick it anymore. Plus Buffy is prepared to sacrifice Dawn as she says to Giles. Remember, Buffy knows she could die at any time and one of these girls could have to step up at any moment and be the Slayer. 

[lembergwatcher]

On 16.12.2018 at 1:08 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

Buffy is the general and can't go to pieces every time she loses a soldier

1) Chloe wasn't a "soldier" yet. 2) No one asks Buffy to go to pieces. But bashing the fallen comrade isn't required either.

 

On 16.12.2018 at 1:13 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

Firstly, Buffy herself accepted her calling and daily risked her life to protect others, she's not asking anything of The Potentials she hasn't done herself.

Did Buffy fully accept her calling from the start? Or did her "Why can't you people just leave me alone?" in Welcome to the Hellmouth together her initial attitude in Anne prove otherwise? Don't you think it took time for Buffy to totally accept her Slayer destiny? And Buffy had people who loved her and cared for her, the ones who supported her, helped her and gave her a reason to keep on fighting, while Chloe had neither time to adjust nor the support that made things somewhat easier for Buffy.

Edited December 17, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎16‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 12:20 PM, lembergwatcher said:

1) Chloe wasn't a "soldier" yet. 2) No one asks Buffy to go to pieces. But bashing the fallen comrade isn't required either.

 

Did Buffy fully accept her calling from the start? Or did her "Why can't you people just leave me alone?" in Welcome to the Hellmouth together her initial attitude in Anne prove otherwise? Don't you think it took time for Buffy to totally accept her Slayer destiny? And Buffy had people who loved her and cared for her, the ones who supported her, helped her and gave her a reason to keep on fighting, while Chloe had neither time to adjust nor the support that made things somewhat easier for Buffy.

She was on her way, she had to step up. Buffy had to give them some stern medicine, snap them out of their grief. Different situation, the Potentials were under constant attack, they didn't have Buffy's luxury. 

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

She was on her way, she had to step up. Buffy had to give them some stern medicine, snap them out of their grief. Different situation, the Potentials were under constant attack, they didn't have Buffy's luxury.

Buffy and the gang were under attack for seven years, yet I can't recall her being branded as "stupid" too many times. And don't you remember Buffy's reaction whenever someone (Giles or the Council, for example) tried to give her "some stern medicine"? For years Buffy defied every authority in her way, be it school administration or US government. But when Buffy herself is in charge everybody has to obey without question.  

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎21‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 6:33 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Buffy and the gang were under attack for seven years, yet I can't recall her being branded as "stupid" too many times. And don't you remember Buffy's reaction whenever someone (Giles or the Council, for example) tried to give her "some stern medicine"? For years Buffy defied every authority in her way, be it school administration or US government. But when Buffy herself is in charge everybody has to obey without question.  

Buff and co weren't faced with the 1st evil intent on wiping out the Slayer line? Buffy did now find herself in the position of authority and it's interesting to see how she copes, her trapping the Potentials in the crypt with the vamps not unlike what the Council did to her? Everyone does that from time to time, remember Giles in IOHEFY?  

[lembergwatcher]

4 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Buff and co weren't faced with the 1st evil intent on wiping out the Slayer line?

The "First Evil" was a loser. I can see no striking differences between it and all the other Apocalyptic threats. Not an excuse for Buffy's bitchiness.

 

4 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

it's interesting to see how she copes

I don't see Buffy having any difficulties or anguish with doing to others what the Council did to her.

 

4 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Everyone does that from time to time

Yes. Only we aren't supposed to sympathize with everyone whose name isn't Buffy while they do those things. But when Buffy does something questionable we are expected to believe she does it either because "it's for the best" or because "she has no other choice left".

Edited December 28, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎28‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 5:48 PM, lembergwatcher said:

The "First Evil" was a loser. I can see no striking differences between it and all the other Apocalyptic threats. Not an excuse for Buffy's bitchiness.

 

I don't see Buffy having any difficulties or anguish with doing to others what the Council did to her.

 

Yes. Only we aren't supposed to sympathize with everyone whose name isn't Buffy while they do those things. But when Buffy does something questionable we are expected to believe she does it either because "it's for the best" or because "she has no other choice left".

It is the ultimate evil? Buffy does have difficulties, look at her anguish from being cast out or her sorrow at the end of GID? Why else would she do these things? 

[lembergwatcher]

44 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

It is the ultimate evil?

Well, it is supposed to be. But judging from the way it is presented throughout the season, it's actually very far from meeting the requirements of the so-called "ultimate evil" status. Evil had never been this lame, actually. Maybe it was some kind of relative to Dr. Evil from Austin Powers, I don't know.

 

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

look at her anguish from being cast out or her sorrow at the end of GID?

Of course, Buffy doesn't like being cast out! But what doest it have to do with her supposed anguish over mistreating her friends? She's in pain because they don't trust her judgement anymore, not because she acted like a bitch. And I don't see that much sorrow radiating from Buffy at the end of Get it Done. She's agitated because of the impending fight with the Turok-Han army, not because of Chloe's death or the way she disrespected the girl.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎30‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 7:31 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Well, it is supposed to be. But judging from the way it is presented throughout the season, it's actually very far from meeting the requirements of the so-called "ultimate evil" status. Evil had never been this lame, actually. Maybe it was some kind of relative to Dr. Evil from Austin Powers, I don't know.

 

Of course, Buffy doesn't like being cast out! But what doest it have to do with her supposed anguish over mistreating her friends? She's in pain because they don't trust her judgement anymore, not because she acted like a bitch. And I don't see that much sorrow radiating from Buffy at the end of Get it Done. She's agitated because of the impending fight with the Turok-Han army, not because of Chloe's death or the way she disrespected the girl.

Because she realises her mistake and she has just seen an incredible threat to the world?

[lembergwatcher]

For those of you who happen to be fans of season 7 Buffy Summers. Consider this.

• In earlier seasons Buffy never needed any permissions from Joyce to go on a date or anything but with Dawn it's all of a sudden: "You do not go out on a date without informing me first" (Him). We rarely sympathize with Joyce when she tries to exercise her authority over Buffy, but when Buffy does just that regarding Dawn, it's somehow only for Dawnie's good;
• If you really think it was a "cool" idea to lock non-superpowered Kennedy, Rona, Molly and Vi in a crypt with a homicidal maniac (only ten times stronger than the human variety), remember, that's exactly what Travers & Co were about to subject Buffy to during Cruciamentum four years earlier. There aren't many Quentin Travers' fans out here, but somehow his misdeeds aren't that bad if Buffy does them;
• When Xander calls the mass murderer (Angel) a "killer" in the early seasons, that makes him "mean" and "jealous" in the eyes of the vast majority of fandom. When Buffy trash-talks an innocent girl (Chloe) who died under tragic circumstances (Get it Done), many fans tend to support... the Slayer (even though Angel deserved many bad things said about him or done to him, while Chloe definitely didn't);
• If you hate the Scoobs and Potentials for refusing to follow Buffy's lead in Empty Places, you need to remember how our beloved heroine kicked Wesley (her legal superior) out in almost similar fashion at the end of season 3. When Buffy says she doesn't follow orders numerous times we cheer her, but since Buffy is in charge everyone's supposed to obey without questions, right? At least Wes wasn't that incompetent...; 
• If you think Dawn had no right to say what she said to Buffy at the end of Empty Places because Buffy paid the bills et al., do I have to remind you that Joyce did exactly the same thing much longer? Somehow I don't remember bringing up that fact when it came to Joyce/Buffy issues. Can't recall anyone saying Joyce was right to tell Buffy not to come back in Becoming, Part 2 on the grounds of paying the bills. Things are different when Buffy is the provider, apparently;
• If you feel sorry for Buffy 'cause she had to live the life she didn't choose, keep in mind it's the same Buffy who subjected hundreds/thousands teenage girl to the same destiny without a second thought;
• For a show that taught us it was cool to defy every single authority figure standing in the way - be it parents, SHS administration, the Watchers Council, the US government or some gods themselves - it's kinda strange to change the concept so much, expecting everyone to root for Buffy Summers the Magnificent Leader...

Buffy did lots of questionable things throughout the series, but her final season-self was a complete antithesis to everything she stood and fought for. Every damn thing. Why are we stil supposed to like her?..

 

Edited February 4, 2020 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

COVID-related meme going around, reposted to Insta by Sarah Michelle Gellar herself, seen below.  (personally, I'm #TeamYummySushiJammies anyhow, as I'm sure you could guess.)

Edited March 29, 2020 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

I bet some "Scoobies on quarantine" episode would've been quite interesting. I wonder whether the vamps and demons are prone to COVID-19 too? Can they eat infected humans with no consequences?

Edited March 29, 2020 by lembergwatcher

[Joe Hellandback]

On 3/29/2020 at 7:38 PM, lembergwatcher said:

I bet some "Scoobies on quarantine" episode would've been quite interesting. I wonder whether the vamps and demons are prone to COVID-19 too? Can they eat infected humans with no consequences?

Older and Far Away would probably give some idea? I would say vamps can feed on diseased humans but maybe don't like to, Adam refers to his lackey in Superstar not liking the blood of the librarian he's killed as it has cancer. 

[watcher1006]

The mythology of disease and the vampire world wasn't really developed much in BtVS or its spinoff Angel. But recall how William's (late Spike's) mother was dying of tuberculosis when her problem was "solved" by her being turned into a vampire. And then on Angel

we see that Darla was dying of syphilis when the Master turned her into a vampire. When she was brought back as a human her disease was still with her.

[Joe Hellandback]

On 4/10/2020 at 4:43 PM, watcher1006 said:

The mythology of disease and the vampire world wasn't really developed much in BtVS or its spinoff Angel. But recall how William's (late Spike's) mother was dying of tuberculosis when her problem was "solved" by her being turned into a vampire. And then on Angel

 

  Hide contents

we see that Darla was dying of syphilis when the Master turned her into a vampire. When she was brought back as a human her disease was still with her.

 

I always wondered, what about Mohra demon blood? But maybe they're hard to come by?

[Halting Hex]

Also, Ford seemed untroubled by his blastoglioma (brain cancer) after his vampification.  In the roughly two seconds that Vamp!Ford survived into his unlife, admittedly.

In the Dawn topic, the conversation veered to discussing how credible Buffy is, given her episode-to-episode change of attitude wrt Xanya being merely a "convenience" for Xander in Into the Woods, but a "miraculous love" in Triangle. Here's what I wrote, before deciding this was a better place for it:

Quote

As for Buffy being swayed to #TeamMiraculousXanyaLove because of the "I'm in love with you" speech Xander gives while Buffy is taking her slow walk home from the helipad at the end of Into the Woods, not only do we run into the "telling, not showing" objection here, but as I've noted in the episode threads, Buffy didn't hear the speech.  Since she was busy taking that sad walk home at the time. (My jokes about Xander giving her a recap later aside.)

One could argue that Buffy realized later that she was only attacking Xanya to deflect from Xander's points about how she's taking Riley for granted ("Wow, is this so not about me" I believe Xander says when Buffy takes the conversation on that left turn, in fact) and so her admiration in Triangle is more sincere than her anti-Xanya cynicism from the previous episode.  

But it's equally possible that Buffy is overcompensating, I'd argue.

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

Buffy didn't hear the speech

But... what about Slayer hearing?.. 

[Halting Hex]

And a Happy 42nd birthday to our little Slay Gal!  She's not getting older, she's getting better.

Okay, since we haven't heard from her lately, for all I know, she could have let Spike take one big-ass bite and now she's literally not getting any older.  But hopefully not.

[Jazzy24]

I’m rewatching the show with my friend(it’s her first time) and I wanted to point out something about Buffy that I never paid attention too. 
 

She’s the most forgiving character on the show, even more so than Giles.  
 

Buffy was more than capable of making a “normal” relationship work. I would have loved to see that. 
 

A lot of characters are very unsympathetic to Buffy’s feelings(Giles and Angel are the most sympathetic followed by Willow and Xander)

It’s very glaring how Buffy becomes more and more isolated, lacked interest and was pulled more and more into the darkness as the show goes on. 
 

 

[Halting Hex]

Was going through a very old website and discovered this:

The S1 photoshoot in the crypt, obviously.  Had not seen this before.

[lembergwatcher]

Actually there are quite a few photos from down there...

[Halting Hex]

Yes, I know all the standard group pics, with the girls in their NKAB-wear.  However, it is always cool to find ones I hadn't seen before, like that BX shot I posted a while back.

As for yours, I think the one in the alternate outfits is new to me.  I guess Susanna brought an entire wardrobe rack to the shoot, huh?

Or perhaps they went back for another shoot while filming IRYJ, as seen by Buffy's LBD and Xander with a shirt that is bound to end as a grease-rag (and arguably can skip right to that destination, now).  That would explain CC's absence, as Cordelia isn't in that ep.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Halting Hex