Melisandre: Mother of Shadows & Mistress of BBQs

[Lady S.]

ETA:

On 17 June 2015 at 10:12 AM, ulkis said:

I get your overall point, that Joan was someone who was taken seriously when she said that she was following God's orders, but people didn't outright believe her either, she had to pass a few tests (do we even know how Stannis decided Melisandre was good people in the first place, besides the fact that his wife liked her?),

 

Well, she survived a poisoning attempt by Stan's old maester and birthed a shadow to kill his treasonous brother, and then she showed him a vision in the flames in the s2 finale . But there's still a lot we don't know about how she became part of Team Dragonstone. Did Selyse seek out a foreign faith because of her issues with fertility and Shireen's greyscale? Or did Mel just show up on their doorstep one day and just quickly convert Selyse? All we really know about Mel is what she told Gendry and Shireen, that she was a slave before devoting herself to the Lord.
 

On 17 June 2015 at 6:33 PM, Fen said:

What's interesting for me with Melisandre's take on her religion - and what I'm wondering about next season - is how it can be contrasted with Thoros of Myr.  The classic definition for magic vs religion is 'magic compels, religion persuades':

• Thoros admits he is weak and a sinner.  When Beric dies, he begs R'hllor to work through his body to restore his life.  He is insistent that the power is not his, it is all R'hllor, and he only chooses to bestow it.
• Melisandre, though, straight up crosses the line into magic.  If I sacrifice Shireen, then R'hllor will deliver the goods.  That's not really faith and religion in its strictest sense.  That's magic.  If I do this ritual, then this will happen. 

She looked utterly chastened when she arrived at the Wall, though.  I wonder if she might change how she carries out her faith.

 

 

Another unique thing with Mel is her shadow-birthing, that seems like more of a witch thing than a priestess thing. 
 
People are asking why Mel would try to resurrect Jon after not exactly reacting positively to meeting Beric, but I think her shock there was about R'hllor showing an unheard of miracle through a drunken wastrel who didn't even fully believe, and her problem was that Thoros had used this gift on the same man 6 times already, which even Beric himself knew was a bit much. But now she's in the market for a new hero to hitch her wagon to, and the only other option is Olly.

[Avaleigh]

Spoilers means I still have to tag the book talk, right? 

 

If I could ask GRRM three questions about Melisandre I think they would be 1) How old is she? 2) What made her so convinced that Stannis was AAR? What was she expecting to happen after burning Shireen and what does she think went wrong? 

 

I'm curious about what all is needed for a shadow birth. If it were just about sex then she could use any guy to create a shadow assassin any time one was needed. I feel like there has to be more to it. I got the impression that she was willing to make one with Jon.

 

But now she's in the market for a new hero to hitch her wagon to, and the only other option is Olly.

I think Olly is going to be like one of Davos's sons who has a crush on Mel. I think he'll end up either burning or getting the wighthood but either way I think the kid is doomed. 

 

If Melisandre brings Jon back to life in front of everyone I'm super curious as to how people will respond to both Jon and Mel.

 

As far as the whole ruby necklace thing

This doesn't seem to be an issue on the show since she has taken it off before but I do wonder if the whole glamour thing is going to come up again because I can't help but wonder if somebody else has been controlling her glamour all along.

 

I also like the little things that potentially connect her with Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar.

[Lady S.]

Spoilers means I still have to tag the book talk, right? 

 

Yeah, I asked when the tags first showed up and was told it just refers to show spoilers. Open book talk is for the book talk tagged threads.

 

I've wondered if Mel had some vision about Dragonstone and just showed up there, but the vision was either actually about Dany (born on Dragonstone) or Jon (possibly fathered by the last Prince of Dragonstone). So she meets the ruler of Dragonstone, and just figures that must be her guy because Melly is nothing if not overconfident in her misplaced beliefs.

[Fen]

I really liked how they had her try to convert the household through Selyse.  It made sense character-wise - Selyse is a frustrated, unhappy woman who might be easily persuaded to spend her energies on the faith.  It also made historical sense - the Church would marry Christian Frankish princesses to pagan Anglo-Saxon kings as a means of introducing the faith.  The religion would spread via the woman's sphere of influence, and through her insistence on baptizing the children.

[Lady S.]

Yes, I actually liked her scene with Shireen last season, before we knew the terrible direction which that plot was headed in.

[Avaleigh]

I've wondered if Mel had some vision about Dragonstone and just showed up there, but the vision was either actually about Dany (born on Dragonstone) or Jon (possibly fathered by the last Prince of Dragonstone). So she meets the ruler of Dragonstone, and just figures that must be her guy because Melly is nothing if not overconfident in her misplaced beliefs.

Makes sense to me.

 

The only thing is I feel like Melisandre is somebody who is likely old enough to know the history of the Targaryens so why doesn't she at least consider the possibility that the prophecy refers to somebody else? I'm sort of fond of the theory that Melisandre is the child of

Bloodraven and Shiera but if Mel has Targaryen blood then she doesn't seem to be terribly interested in it (her blood isn't useful for leech magic) and so far she seems to have next to no interest in these fiery aristocrats even though she's all about fire. It's odd, isn't it? Is she really trying to help?

 

She's evil in both the show and the books but we see that in the books there are still traces of humanity and she does have sympathy for other people even when it doesn't necessarily suit her purpose.

 

[CletusMusashi]

I tend to think of the Lord of Light as more of a force of nature than as an "invisible person in the sky" type god. Thoros may believe it has personality and will, but for all we know he could just be anthropomorphizing. So that's why Melisandre, with her completely different outlook on the god, can still get results from it. Knowing how to employ prayers and rituals is like knowing how to use an electrical plug, but the electricity itself really has no opinion on whether you're using to toast waffles or download porn. Even Danaerys, with no training whatsoever in that religion, figured out a way to tap into that power.

But, speaking of Danaerys, maybe the LOL does have a mind and agenda, and Dany is the reason it changed its mind about Stannis. In that case, it would now be giving Mel instructions to prepare Westeros for the return of the Targaryans.

[Conan Troutman]

All we really know about Mel is what she told Gendry and Shireen, that she was a slave before devoting herself to the Lord.

 

I totally forgot about that part. I still believe she'll end up with Dany and that's another piece in the puzzle for why she could do it: A former slave seeking out the Breaker of Chains, makes total sense.

 

I'm curious about what all is needed for a shadow birth. If it were just about sex then she could use any guy to create a shadow assassin any time one was needed. I feel like there has to be more to it. I got the impression that she was willing to make one with Jon.

 

I think it's about king's blood and there's a certain amount of youth or libido required. That's why she rejected Stannis' offer, saying he couldn't do it again, I think she said he could/would die because he was too weak. Or maybe she was just polite because he was a lousy fuck, who knows?

How would she know that Jon has (presumably) king's blood? I guess she senses something about him, maybe another not-so-subtle hint that she'll resurrect him.

 

I don't think she's evil per se. I think she's really believing what she says and while she knows she's using a variety of parlor tricks, she does believe she has an actual connection to the LoL. Her actions may be interpreted otherwise, but the way she's portrayed clearly suggests that she was genuinely surprised and even shocked by the developments with Stannis. It seems to me she sees a vision and then does everything she can, including her own magic, to help make those visions come true (i.e. helping Stannis to become king so he can fight the WW). She's just very bad at interpreting them.

[Ambrosefolly]

I just hate that she basically destroyed a family (Shireen, Stannis, Selyse) and it just gets to move on to the next AA, whoever he or she might be. I really want Davos to kill her, even if she manages to raise Jon from the dead.

[Lady S.]

I tend to think of the Lord of Light as more of a force of nature than as an "invisible person in the sky" type god. Thoros may believe it has personality and will, but for all we know he could just be anthropomorphizing. So that's why Melisandre, with her completely different outlook on the god, can still get results from it. Knowing how to employ prayers and rituals is like knowing how to use an electrical plug, but the electricity itself really has no opinion on whether you're using to toast waffles or download porn. Even Danaerys, with no training whatsoever in that religion, figured out a way to tap into that power.

Yes, this is pretty much what I think, ice magic and fire magic as competing forces, or maybe forces that need to be in balance or whatever. People like to say that Red Rahloo and the old gods have shown more power than the Seven, but it appears the old gods might be just one old creepy wizard-type hanging out in a cave underneath a heart tree. The children of the forest and the white walkers both appear to be demi-god figures, but actual deities pulling the strings of those in Westeros is less clear and I think that fits more with Evil Santa's ex-Catholic/atheist worldviews. Is the LoL really demanding burnt offerings based on blood? We can't say, just like we can't say if the High Sparrow's "mercy" is really prescribed from the Mother Above.

 

 

I think it's about king's blood and there's a certain amount of youth or libido required. That's why she rejected Stannis' offer, saying he couldn't do it again, I think she said he could/would die because he was too weak. Or maybe she was just polite because he was a lousy fuck, who knows?

How would she know that Jon has (presumably) king's blood? I guess she senses something about him, maybe another not-so-subtle hint that she'll resurrect him.

 

I don't think she's evil per se. I think she's really believing what she says and while she knows she's using a variety of parlor tricks, she does believe she has an actual connection to the LoL. Her actions may be interpreted otherwise, but the way she's portrayed clearly suggests that she was genuinely surprised and even shocked by the developments with Stannis. It seems to me she sees a vision and then does everything she can, including her own magic, to help make those visions come true (i.e. helping Stannis to become king so he can fight the WW). She's just very bad at interpreting them.

Yes, I believe her phrasing was about Stan's fires burning low, as if the conception of Renly's assassin took some of his life force, which may be why Stannis aged faster than Sam Jr. in s3-s5. Idt Mel knows the specifics of R+L=J yet, but she said she could sense power in Jon, so maybe she wanted to test it by seducing him.

 

Yes, I don't think Melly has to have some darker agenda or actually be a conduit for the God of Darkness or whatever, because I think the whole point, with both her and the High Sparrow, is the danger of religion when used as a force by a true believer. Like how Stannis was a just and dutiful king taken to the extreme. 

[Avaleigh]

I just hate that she basically destroyed a family (Shireen, Stannis, Selyse) and it just gets to move on to the next AA, whoever he or she might be. I really want Davos to kill her, even if she manages to raise Jon from the dead.

I can't decide what she deserves. I feel like she'd be happiest with a death by fire so I almost feel like that should be off the table unless that's the only way that she can feel pain. 

 

Davos is my favorite candidate to have somebody kill her although I could get behind Jon or Arya being the one too. 

[Pickles Aplenty]

I don't want Mel to die.  I'm sure she probably will by series' end, but I don't want her to.  I just think she's a fun character because she is so convinced that her faith is the answer to everything, and I get a kick out of watching her.  You don't really know what's going on in her head, and it's fascinating.

[Lady S.]

I don't want Mel to die.  I'm sure she probably will by series' end, but I don't want her to.  I just think she's a fun character because she is so convinced that her faith is the answer to everything, and I get a kick out of watching her.  You don't really know what's going on in her head, and it's fascinating.

Honestly, I kinda agree, but I care more about Cersei sticking around until the final eps (meaning either killed in the series finale or the last big penultimate ep). Mel is kinda more like Roose Bolton for me, I don't need her to die but she can leave in s6 if that's her time. A pure death by fire sounds fine by me, that is how Dany disposed of the witch who cursed Drogo and Rhaego.

[Avaleigh]

Will death by fire frighten Mel though? I feel like she'd go to her grave singing or something and I don't know how I feel about that. 

[Lady S.]

Unless Mel is fireproof, that shouldn't be a painless death, even for her. Mirri Maz Duur was content until she was actually aflame, breaking her vow to Dany that she would not scream.

[Avaleigh]

Hopefully I'm wrong, Mel just seems more advanced than Mirri Maz Duur like she'd know things that that woman didn't. 

 

Even when Mel's necklace was burning the shit out of her during Rattleshirt's death I don't think she cried out once in pain. It seemed like it could have been a near thing though. I still don't really understand what happened there.

[Conan Troutman]

Yes, this is pretty much what I think, ice magic and fire magic as competing forces, or maybe forces that need to be in balance or whatever. People like to say that Red Rahloo and the old gods have shown more power than the Seven, but it appears the old gods might be just one old creepy wizard-type hanging out in a cave underneath a heart tree. The children of the forest and the white walkers both appear to be demi-god figures, but actual deities pulling the strings of those in Westeros is less clear and I think that fits more with Evil Santa's ex-Catholic/atheist worldviews. Is the LoL really demanding burnt offerings based on blood? We can't say, just like we can't say if the High Sparrow's "mercy" is really prescribed from the Mother Above.

 

I think the LoL isn't just some thing his followers have made up, but I don't think he's an actual deity either. It's a kind of magic, so to speak.

Since you mention the Children of the Forest: They're a bit too much like Littlefinger for my taste - you don't hear a thing about him/them, which makes me quite suspicious. It's always the quiet ones...

IA that the tree guy was one of the Old Gods (again, not literal god, but whatever passes for one in this world), possibly the only one left. I'm still trying to figure out how the Starks are connected to him, or the Children for that matter and how this all intertwines. I'll catch up on the books now anyway, so maybe that'll clear some things up.

 

Yes, I believe her phrasing was about Stan's fires burning low, as if the conception of Renly's assassin took some of his life force, which may be why Stannis aged faster than Sam Jr. in s3-s5. Idt Mel knows the specifics of R+L=J yet, but she said she could sense power in Jon, so maybe she wanted to test it by seducing him.

 

Speaking of Sam Jr. and his strangely slow aging process, I can't help but think that could be a plot point. Craster's boys have apparently been turned into WW for quite a time, so there has to be some kind of connection. His daughters might age normally, but what if his sons wouldn't? Maybe because Craster has WW blood in him, but for some reason they seem to be a male-only type of race (why else would they need fresh babies?), so this wouldn't apply to females? I kind of think all those northern groups were quite happy to try out new things, not the it-stays-in-the-family types of the southerners.

[Lady S.]

I think the LoL isn't just some thing his followers have made up, but I don't think he's an actual deity either. It's a kind of magic, so to speak.

Since you mention the Children of the Forest: They're a bit too much like Littlefinger for my taste - you don't hear a thing about him/them, which makes me quite suspicious. It's always the quiet ones...

IA that the tree guy was one of the Old Gods (again, not literal god, but whatever passes for one in this world), possibly the only one left. I'm still trying to figure out how the Starks are connected to him, or the Children for that matter and how this all intertwines. I'll catch up on the books now anyway, so maybe that'll clear some things up.

Hey, if you're serious about converting to the book side, you should post your thoughts on the ASoIaF subforum here. Avaleigh is leading a re-read of book 1 right now and there's also a thread for one of the formerly Unsullied making the conversion. I'd love to know what your first impressions are.

[Conan Troutman]

Hey, if you're serious about converting to the book side, you should post your thoughts on the ASoIaF subforum here. Avaleigh is leading a re-read of book 1 right now and there's also a thread for one of the formerly Unsullied making the conversion. I'd love to know what your first impressions are.

 I didn't even know an organized re-read was a thing, but that sounds great. Sign me up!